Are they up to the job?

[clerriehibs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-12910636

Some no doubt very confused 98 year old attacks and injures (by stabbing her in the arm) a policewoman in his own home.

There were two policewomen there; the old guy is NINETY-EIGHT. Attempted murder? They're having a laugh ... how the hell does a 98 year old surprise and overpower two young POLICE officers??? They're police officers, he shouldn't have been able to inflict any injuries, if they'd been any good at their jobs he wouldn't have done and he wouldn't now be incarcerated.

Waste of bloody time, but no doubt being taken so far to cover their embarrassment.

[Sir David Gray]

It's hard to comment without knowing the full facts of the incident but I did have a second look at the story as I thought I had misread the bit about him being 98.

I have to say that I find it difficult to understand how a 98 year old is capable of committing such a serious attack on two people, who are significantly younger than he is, that it should be considered as attempted murder.

[Twiglet]

I worke as a care assistant when I was at uni. Some of the residents I worked with were pretty strong for their age, and you can get caught off-guard by their unexpected strength. It sometimes seems stronger when they're more confused.
Sometimes it's not the strength of the person, but the way it suddenly happens without you expecting it.
Saying that though, if they were called by a carer concerned for his welfare, they should have been prepared for anything. The fact that the carer called the police and not an ambulance is a bit confusing, but indicates that there was something else going on that warranted their presence.
If you're approaching someone who's confused and they have a weapon, you don't continue to approach them! You stop and give them space, and back off if neccessary, until someone who is trained to deal with someone on that state (ie paramedics would know and would have enough training about how to approach, calm down, etc).

[Beefster]

To be honest, when I'm in the company of 98 year olds I tend not to watch them constantly in case they whip an axe out and attack me with it.

I think you'd be hard pushed to argue that attacking someone with an axe wasn't attempted murder too.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It depends on the 98 year old. We're too ready to brush off all elderly people as impotent imbeciles.

[Future17]

It depends on the 98 year old. We're too ready to brush off all elderly people as impotent imbeciles.

:agree:

It's also pretty easy to sustain arm injuries when defending yourself from a bladed attack.

I can only the outrage if two police officers had seriously injured, or possibly even killed, a 98-year-old in his home in "self-defence".

[lapsedhibee]

Two attempted murder charges.

If convicted on both, should the sentences run concurrently (and outrage all those on this board who think that concurrent sentencing is a swiz) or should they be consecutive and very short, to allow a chance of them being served (outraging all those who think that violent crims get off too lightly).

Perhaps a case for hanging and flogging, given the perp's age.

[greenlex]

Two attempted murder charges.

If convicted on both, should the sentences run concurrently (and outrage all those on this board who think that concurrent sentencing is a swiz) or should they be consecutive and very short, to allow a chance of them being served (outraging all those who think that violent crims get off too lightly).

Perhaps a case for hanging and flogging, given the perp's age.
Hangings a bit much. If they just sneak up behind the perp and shout "BOO" that should dothe trick.

[Hibs Class]

Two attempted murder charges.

If convicted on both, should the sentences run concurrently (and outrage all those on this board who think that concurrent sentencing is a swiz) or should they be consecutive and very short, to allow a chance of them being served (outraging all those who think that violent crims get off too lightly).

Perhaps a case for hanging and flogging, given the perp's age.


Hangings a bit much. If they just sneak up behind the perp and shout "BOO" that should dothe trick.


I think you're watching too many US TV shows :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

It depends on the 98 year old. We're too ready to brush off all elderly people as impotent imbeciles.Exactly. 98 is the new 40 so i've been told.
The 2 of them should be sacked for being incompetent.

[ancient hibee]

I'd be pretty surprised if a 98 year old attacked me.There had to be two police because of the corroboration law.I'd give him 50 years or life.

[Twa Cairpets]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-12910636

Some no doubt very confused 98 year old attacks and injures (by stabbing her in the arm) a policewoman in his own home.

There were two policewomen there; the old guy is NINETY-EIGHT. Attempted murder? They're having a laugh ... how the hell does a 98 year old surprise and overpower two young POLICE officers??? They're police officers, he shouldn't have been able to inflict any injuries, if they'd been any good at their jobs he wouldn't have done and he wouldn't now be incarcerated.

Waste of bloody time, but no doubt being taken so far to cover their embarrassment.

Nothing like making wild, sweeping assumptions is there.

The story gives no details about the precise nature of the incident. You're assuming that, for instance, the police werent in the living room waiting for the old boy to come back with a cup of tea but instead comes in swinging an axe for some reason. Policewoman puts her arm up to protect her head and its injured. Would you have preferred her to have taken the blow, or would that have been incompetent too? (Imagine being axed by a 98 year old, eh? Are they up to the job? etc etc).

It may well be that these two are the worst polis in Scotland - I don't know - but neither do you. You've extrapolated the story making a swathe of assumptions to make a rather petty point. What I do know is that if someone came at me with an axe a knife I'd want them charged or committed regardless of their age - wouldn't you?

[ArabHibee]

Nothing like making wild, sweeping assumptions is there.

The story gives no details about the precise nature of the incident. You're assuming that, for instance, the police werent in the living room waiting for the old boy to come back with a cup of tea but instead comes in swinging an axe for some reason. Policewoman puts her arm up to protect her head and its injured. Would you have preferred her to have taken the blow, or would that have been incompetent too? (Imagine being axed by a 98 year old, eh? Are they up to the job? etc etc).

It may well be that these two are the worst polis in Scotland - I don't know - but neither do you. You've extrapolated the story making a swathe of assumptions to make a rather petty point. What I do know is that if someone came at me with an axe a knife I'd want them charged or committed regardless of their age - wouldn't you?

Whilst I agree with you, you do have to wonder how much caution was taken when going into the scenario?
Carer calls police instead of ambulance - Why?
Bloke was a prisoner of war - maybe had a fear of uniforms, thought the Nazis has come back for him? :dunno:
Don't think we'll ever find out.

One thing I will say, and I really don't give a hoot if it pees people off, when you attack a police officer rather than a civilian, you always gets a heavier charge against you. He probably nicked a couple of hairs off her arm which has 'seriously disfigured' her. :rolleyes:

[Just Jimmy]

Whilst I agree with you, you do have to wonder how much caution was taken when going into the scenario?
Carer calls police instead of ambulance - Why?
Bloke was a prisoner of war - maybe had a fear of uniforms, thought the Nazis has come back for him? :dunno:
Don't think we'll ever find out.

One thing I will say, and I really don't give a hoot if it pees people off, when you attack a police officer rather than a civilian, you always gets a heavier charge against you. He probably nicked a couple of hairs off her arm which has 'seriously disfigured' her. :rolleyes:

True, and I think it's proper as well. These guys go into some terrible situations. Love them or hate them, they do, every day. The heavy punishment should make it clear than attacking them or stopping them doing their job in anyway is just not acceptable. It gives them some limited extra security. That's never a bad thing.

[clerriehibs]

Nothing like making wild, sweeping assumptions is there.

The story gives no details about the precise nature of the incident. You're assuming that, for instance, the police werent in the living room waiting for the old boy to come back with a cup of tea but instead comes in swinging an axe for some reason. Policewoman puts her arm up to protect her head and its injured. Would you have preferred her to have taken the blow, or would that have been incompetent too? (Imagine being axed by a 98 year old, eh? Are they up to the job? etc etc).

It may well be that these two are the worst polis in Scotland - I don't know - but neither do you. You've extrapolated the story making a swathe of assumptions to make a rather petty point. What I do know is that if someone came at me with an axe a knife I'd want them charged or committed regardless of their age - wouldn't you?

"wild sweeping assumptions" ... "A swathe of assumptions" ... for someone who alleges hyperbole whether it's there or not, you're blessed with the most spectacular ability yourself.

No, I wouldn't want a 98 year old charged.

[clerriehibs]

Nothing like making wild, sweeping assumptions is there.


Interesting argument. Nothing like a sweeping generalisation to your make your point is there.

Do you have any other tools in your inventory - bit repetitive, no? :rolleyes:

[LeithWalkHibby]

I'd let the family of the victims have ten minutes in a room alone with the nonagenarian monster. That would soon wipe the smile off his heavily wrinkled face.

[ArabHibee]

I'd let the family of the victims have ten minutes in a room alone with the nonagenarian monster. That would soon wipe the smile off his heavily wrinkled face.

"Victims"? Are you being serious?

[Twa Cairpets]

"wild sweeping assumptions" ... "A swathe of assumptions" ... for someone who alleges hyperbole whether it's there or not, you're blessed with the most spectacular ability yourself.

Why thank you. But my post (hyperbolic or not) does address the fact you're making very large assumptions to make a point.


No, I wouldn't want a 98 year old charged.

How odd.

If the old boy had killed the policewoman should he have been let off? You seem to think that age is a default reason for not being charged with attempted murder (or committed). When does this age kick in? 70? 80? 84 3/4? Just because he failed doesnt mean that we should go, awww, poor old boy, let him off. Would you want to live next door to him?


Do you have any other tools in your inventory - bit repetitive, no? I'm delighted that you are such an avid reader of my posts that you are able to pick up a minor similarity in responses on two different threads. I really appreciate the stylistic advice.

The point still stands regardless, however. In your OP, you make a point that is, from what I can see in the linked report, entirely unsubstantiated, and then go off and have a wee rant based entirely on this conclusion, which is ludicrous.

Im not entirely sure if your beef is with women, police, policewomen or you have an profound sympathy for people who attempt murder, but whatever it is, your OP is shoehorning your angst into a situation that at this stage, from what has been published, you cant possibly know.

[Beefster]

I'd let the family of the victims have ten minutes in a room alone with the nonagenarian monster. That would soon wipe the smile off his heavily wrinkled face.

If a 98 year old axe monster ever goes near my girls, I swear I'll do time.

[easty]

Once you get to 100 you should, in a birthday card from the Queen, get a 'Get Out Of Jail Free Card' (monopoly style) that you can only use once, so use it wisely.

This guys a couple of years to young for that, even if it did exist, and so should be treated like any other adult who attacks someone with a weapon.

(I am so bored at work just now..)

[clerriehibs]

Why thank you. But my post (hyperbolic or not) does address the fact you're making very large assumptions to make a point.



How odd.

If the old boy had killed the policewoman should he have been let off? You seem to think that age is a default reason for not being charged with attempted murder (or committed). When does this age kick in? 70? 80? 84 3/4? Just because he failed doesnt mean that we should go, awww, poor old boy, let him off. Would you want to live next door to him?

I'm delighted that you are such an avid reader of my posts that you are able to pick up a minor similarity in responses on two different threads. I really appreciate the stylistic advice.

The point still stands regardless, however. In your OP, you make a point that is, from what I can see in the linked report, entirely unsubstantiated, and then go off and have a wee rant based entirely on this conclusion, which is ludicrous.

Im not entirely sure if your beef is with women, police, policewomen or you have an profound sympathy for people who attempt murder, but whatever it is, your OP is shoehorning your angst into a situation that at this stage, from what has been published, you cant possibly know.


Not unlike you to make wild, sweeping assumptions about things I haven't said.

I suggest two police OFFICERS are not up to the job because they are surprised (sorry, that is an assumption, wild or otherwise. I'm assuming they were surprised, else there'd be no story) and you turn that into an accusation anti-women/anti-police/violent criminal (of any age, you seem to suggest) sympathiser.

You are an oddity; the tone of your posts is usually to make accusations re assumptions, and you are quite simply the single worst offender.

Gonnae hits us with another "Nothing like blah blah blah" just to be consistent?

And I'm not really sure what your angst is ... being a billy nae mates, probably.

[Dinkydoo]

I think we need to consider the fact that "he was held prisoner by the nazis during the war", he had unfamiliar people in uniforms in his living room and he's 98 years of age........

Everyone's mental and physical health deteriorates at a different rate and depending on what bad/good experiences you've had in your life this can have a profound affect on your mental state of mind as you get older.

If anything he should be thoroughly psychologically assessed (which looks like is happening) and then depending on the outcome, punish accordingly.

His age alone doesn't mean that he should be excused for what he did; that would be just stupid.

[Twa Cairpets]

Not unlike you to make wild, sweeping assumptions about things I haven't said.

I suggest two police OFFICERS are not up to the job because they are surprised (sorry, that is an assumption, wild or otherwise. I'm assuming they were surprised, else there'd be no story) and you turn that into an accusation anti-women/anti-police/violent criminal (of any age, you seem to suggest) sympathiser.

You are an oddity; the tone of your posts is usually to make accusations re assumptions, and you are quite simply the single worst offender.


If you go back and read the post again, without whatever sense of simmering fury or injustice you have you'll see, i hope, that you're missing the point.

You OP was that two police officers were surprised by an attacker who was 98. You're making an assumption that the circumstances were such that they were in a position to avoid being surprised (presumably because of his age), and therefore you're claiming, on the basis of your assumption, that they aren't up to the job and are clearly scornful of the action being taken. I think thats a fair summary of your point.

I'm taking the position that this stance is (at this stage at least) at best unfair. You may well be right. They may be the worst polis in the country, but you've already decided this without thinking, apparently of any alternatives. Judge and jury in one go. I suggested in my first response a scenario that result in them being caught off guard. This isn't an assumption, it's a suggestion, and flag up of a potential alternative set of circumstances that at this stage is every bit as valid as the one you claim.



Gonnae hits us with another "Nothing like blah blah blah" just to be consistent?

And I'm not really sure what your angst is ... being a billy nae mates, probably.

Ah personal abuse. Good show. Always a refuge when when one runs out of anything sensible to say.

No matter what I post, you appear to not actually read it with any sense of rationality, and draw magnificently erroneous (hyperbole added purely for your benefit) conclusions.

I reckon I'm fairly angst free, and like to think I've got a fairly decent circle of friends, family and acquaintances. Thanks for the concern though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think we need to consider the fact that "he was held prisoner by the nazis during the war", he had unfamiliar people in uniforms in his living room and he's 98 years of age........

Everyone's mental and physical health deteriorates at a different rate and depending on what bad/good experiences you've had in your life this can have a profound affect on your mental state of mind as you get older.

If anything he should be thoroughly psychologically assessed (which looks like is happening) and then depending on the outcome, punish accordingly.

His age alone doesn't mean that he should be excused for what he did; that would be just stupid.

:agree:

[clerriehibs]

If you go back and read the post again, without whatever sense of simmering fury or injustice you have you'll see, i hope, that you're missing the point.



Sorry, Billy, but you're at it again. All this hyperbole, seeing faults in others that are actually your own faults ... are you taking your medicine for your Munchausen by Proxy, like the good doctor told you to?

I ask why two police officers can be surprised by a 98 year old, seeing as they are police officers and on duty (on duty, remember, called out by an obviously very concerned care assistant, not just popping round for a nice cup of tea).

Remarkably, you deduce and suggest from that I may be one or more of anti-women, anti-police, and pro-violent offenders. Where does that come from? I dunno ... is it YOU, Billy?

Re-read the OP, although re- is stretching a bit because you never really bother bother reading them properly in the 1st place.


You may reckon you're angst free - your posts suggest otherwise, Billy.

[ArabHibee]

I got a little bit more info on this issue tonight. Apparently the guy is well known in Scone, very amicable chap but he doesn't like folk coming to his house. He doesn't answer the door or apparently the phone. His next door neighbour has a special knock so that he let's them into the house. So I can only imagine 2 rozzers turning up and banging on his door with their usual 'polis' knock must have frightened the daylights out of him.

[Twa Cairpets]

Sorry, Billy, but you're at it again. All this hyperbole, seeing faults in others that are actually your own faults ... are you taking your medicine for your Munchausen by Proxy, like the good doctor told you to?

I ask why two police officers can be surprised by a 98 year old, seeing as they are police officers and on duty (on duty, remember, called out by an obviously very concerned care assistant, not just popping round for a nice cup of tea).

And the answer, again, is that I dont know, and neither do you. If you dont like the tea idea, how about (in the light of Arabs post), he opened the door and just swung the axe as it opened? Just so you are absolutely clear, you may be right and they may have been very incompetent and negligent, but you do not know that.


Remarkably, you deduce and suggest from that I may be one or more of anti-women, anti-police, and pro-violent offenders. Where does that come from? I dunno ... is it YOU, Billy?

Ok, Lets do it again. Given that youre drawing your conclusion from a supposition that is entirely guesswork, it is fair to infer that you are creating a circumstance where your prejudices are affirmed. As the main characters in this episode are female police officers and a bloke with an axe, its difficult to come to any other conclusion. Point out where I'm going wrong.


Re-read the OP, although re- is stretching a bit because you never really bother bother reading them properly in the 1st place.

Done it. Happy. I wouldnt have wasted the best of my florid hyperbole if I hadn't now would I?


You may reckon you're angst free - your posts suggest otherwise, Billy.

Nope, pretty laid back kind of guy. I get irritated by wanton stupidity and ill-informed ignorance if that counts as angst, but otherwise I regard getting stressed as a fairly fruitless exercise that gives you nothing but indigestion.

You can get your pepto-bismol free on prescription as of today Clerrie.

With love and kisses
xx

William McHyperbole.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What would our attitude be if the guy had attacked two girl guides who came to his door?

[Hibs Class]

What would our attitude be if the guy had attacked two girl guides who came to his door?

Then we'd have definitely suggested they should have been prepared :greengrin

[Dinkydoo]

What would our attitude be if the guy had attacked two girl guides who came to his door?


A good hypothetical FR, which really puts this into perspective.

I'd go as far to suggest that if he is in such a state of fear that people can't safely enter his house without a special knock, he perhaps should be under 24 hour care in a controlled environment - minimising the risk of hurting himself or others.

[--------]

Two attempted murder charges.

If convicted on both, should the sentences run concurrently (and outrage all those on this board who think that concurrent sentencing is a swiz) or should they be consecutive and very short, to allow a chance of them being served (outraging all those who think that violent crims get off too lightly).

Perhaps a case for hanging and flogging, given the perp's age.


Give him consecutive life sentences, and tell him to serve as much of them as he can.

Seriously, what are the chances of the guy being considered fit to plead?

He's been sent for psychiatric assessment. He may well be suffering from senile dementia, in which case he'll hopefully be placed in a secure unit for the time that's left to him.

Having worked in a geriatric ward some years ago, I can confirm that just because a man's 98 years old it doesn't mean he can't be dangerous to himself and to the people around him - especially if he's in possession of an axe and a knife. In one ward where I worked, an old man in his 90's suddenly lashed out at another patient with his walking stick - hit him right across the top of his head and laid him out. The only reason the other man survived was because he had a silver plate in his skull - he'd received a severe head-wound at Anzio in 1944. Woke up without even a headache.

So accusing the WPC's of incompetence or stupidity seems to me to be well out of order.

[--------]

I got a little bit more info on this issue tonight. Apparently the guy is well known in Scone, very amicable chap but he doesn't like folk coming to his house. He doesn't answer the door or apparently the phone. His next door neighbour has a special knock so that he let's them into the house. So I can only imagine 2 rozzers turning up and banging on his door with their usual 'polis' knock must have frightened the daylights out of him.


Sounds as if there were a number of things the WPCs should have been told before they went to the door - for their sakes as well at the old boy's.

(Like everything you've put in your post, AH.)

He hears the knock, goes to the door already scared, sees the uniforms, gets a nasty flashback (or maybe a NAZI one?) back to wartime and lashes out.

Memory can play weird tricks on us.

[ArabHibee]

Then we'd have definitely suggested they should have been prepared :greengrin

:faf: :top marks

[ArabHibee]

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Perthshire/article/15342/crown-drops-case-against-polish-war-veteran-sylvester-nowak.html

Just an update, incase anyone was interested in what happened to the guy.