'Long term' battle against bigotry

[IWasThere2016]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/scotland/12900677.stm

Reference to 'education' .. Perhaps if we didn't start with separation from Primary 1 with split denomination schools the problem might disappear sooner?

Political talk of 'inclusion' and we have division at aged 4/5.

Personally, docking points and disqualifying them from the cups is the only way this nonsense will go away any time soon. Otherwise, the usual lip service and inaction will continue.

[Andy74]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/scotland/12900677.stm

Reference to 'education' .. Perhaps if we didn't start with separation from Primary 1 with split denomination schools the problem might disappear sooner?

Political talk of 'inclusion' and we have division at aged 4/5.

Personally, docking points and disqualifying them from the cups is the only way this nonsense will go away any time soon. Otherwise, the usual lip service and inaction will continue.

I went to a Catholic School and don't hate Protestants. I get the impression that most people who criticise this are Protestants? Might be wrong though. I also see far more fear and hatred of Catholics in this country than I see the other way round. Not sure the answer to all that but schools can only do so much when so many people and families still think the way they do and pass it on.

[Hibbyradge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/scotland/12900677.stm

Reference to 'education' .. Perhaps if we didn't start with separation from Primary 1 with split denomination schools the problem might disappear sooner?

Political talk of 'inclusion' and we have division at aged 4/5.


You need to ask yourself why separate denomination schools don't cause the same problems in England or Wales. Or France and Germany.

Also, why are there are still racists despite schools admitting black and white children together.

[IWasThere2016]

You need to ask yourself why separate denomination schools don't cause the same problems in England or Wales. Or France and Germany.

Also, why are there are still racists despite schools admitting black and white children together.

It is a Scottish/NI problem - no doubt. I think more integration would help personally.

Racism is different issue IMHO.

Docking of points/kicking out of cups etc is the only way to stop this nonsense.

[JimBHibees]

I went to a Catholic School and don't hate Protestants. I get the impression that most people who criticise this are Protestants? Might be wrong though. I also see far more fear and hatred of Catholics in this country than I see the other way round. Not sure the answer to all that but schools can only do so much when so many people and families still think the way they do and pass it on.

Tend to agree cant imagine any school or any church for that matter in this country preaches hatred of others based on religion. To me it seems an easy excuse for lazy and simple thinking based on a them and us mentality. It is no doubt difficult for people who have been brought up on that thinking to change their mindset however depressing that is.

I cant imagine that if denominational schools disappeared tomorrow it would change the thinking or behaviour of people prone to bigoted abuse or violence.

[madhibby]

I'm an aetheist and what has religion,whether protestant, catholic or any other faith got to do with education?

lets keep faith (or support of any religions beliefs)out of school?

no problem with educating pupils on a variety of faiths as well as the strength of non believers and some of the negative aspects of religious belief?

[IWasThere2016]

I also see far more fear and hatred of Catholics in this country than I see the other way round. Not sure the answer to all that but schools can only do so much when so many people and families still think the way they do and pass it on.

I am sure that's right - and I'm not a Catholic. Like I said the points docking/kicking out of cups is the only way of getting beyond the bigotry and enforcing some punishment.

[Removed]

I am sure that's right - and I'm not a Catholic. Like I said the points docking/kicking out of cups is the only way of getting beyond the bigotry and enforcing some punishment.

CCTV can help practically count the hairs on someones head from a distance (easier for some than others though :wink:) so if the authorities had the balls to do it they could easily identify those that are seen singing the hate songs and punish them. Until they start to make an example of a significant number, on BOTH sides then they will just carry on with all the nonsense because they feed of each other. All the clubs :blah: :blah: is just lip service no matter what public face they put on. All imho obviously.

[IWasThere2016]

CCTV can help practically count the hairs on someones head from a distance (easier for some than others though :wink:) so if the authorities had the balls to do it they could easily identify those that are seen singing the hate songs and punish them. Until they start to make an example of a significant number, on BOTH sides then they will just carry on with all the nonsense because they feed of each other. All the clubs :blah: :blah: is just lip service no matter what public face they put on. All imho obviously.

Very true ..

What about the Politicians too? I wonder if Salmond or Gray will be brave enough to take this problem on ahead of the Scottish elections :cool2: I seem to recall Jack McConnell talking the talk and doing nowt also not that long ago.

OF GTF :agree:

[Bishop Hibee]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/scotland/12900677.stm

Reference to 'education' .. Perhaps if we didn't start with separation from Primary 1 with split denomination schools the problem might disappear sooner?

Political talk of 'inclusion' and we have division at aged 4/5.

Personally, docking points and disqualifying them from the cups is the only way this nonsense will go away any time soon. Otherwise, the usual lip service and inaction will continue.

My youngest is still at St Mary's Leith and his class is made up of kids who are sikh, muslim, RC, protestant and 'unfaithed'.

I'll agree with scrapping faith schools when private schools are abolished. A cause of far more division in Edinburgh society :agree:

[AgentDaleCooper]

I am sure that's right - and I'm not a Catholic. Like I said the points docking/kicking out of cups is the only way of getting beyond the bigotry and enforcing some punishment.

personally, i don't think it's relevant which side is worst, because i'm sure rangers fans would say the opposite (probably erroneously, but as i say, it doesn't matter), and then everything just descends into finger pointing. they should simply be punished whenever they do anything sectarian, rather than this pansy "don't want to upset the other one so we'll punish them both" stuff from the SFA.

[AgentDaleCooper]

My youngest is still at St Mary's Leith and his class is made up of kids who are sikh, muslim, RC, protestant and 'unfaithed'.

I'll agree with scrapping faith schools when private schools are abolished. A cause of far more division in Edinburgh society :agree:

violent division?

wee stat - did you know domestic abuse goes up 88% in glasgow after old firm matches? this is down the the hatred and anger that only a religion based rivalry can produce.

(i think private schools are a crock of ***** as well, for the record)

[Vini1875]

violent division?

wee stat - did you know domestic abuse goes up 88% in glasgow after old firm matches? this is down the the hatred and anger that only a religion based rivalry can produce.

(i think private schools are a crock of ***** as well, for the record)

Wow, that is a leap adding two and two regarding domestic abuse and bigotry, I don't think the two things can be tied together. I would imagine most bigots would marry or live with someone of the same faith. So it would make more sense if they beat up their neighbours wife after a game.

The schools argument is too simplistic as well, since RC schools admit children of all faiths and there is no such thing as Protestant schools.

Anti-Catholic bigotry is part of the establishment in this country and has been since the Reformation. Anti-Catholic feeling also has roots among the working classes since many Irish workers came and were paid less by the bosses so creating resentment among Scots Protestants - classic devide and rule politics by the Capitalist Ruling classes. Add to that mix alcohol and then you have all the right ingredients for a stabbing.

And it is not just Glasgow, although it is an easy target. Alcohol fueled violence is rife through out this country, but I don't hear any on here calling for an alcohol ban.

As much as I would love to see a points deduction against the OF how exactly could it be worked? I hear huns belting out the billy boys again, which is one of the banned songs but not a squeak from the SPL or SFA.

We used to sing all the rebel songs and it has stopped at ER, how did that happen? If it can be done at ER it can be done else where surely.

[Saorsa]

Wow, that is a leap adding two and two regarding domestic abuse and bigotry, I don't think the two things can be tied together. I would imagine most bigots would marry or live with someone of the same faith. So it would make more sense if they beat up their neighbours wife after a game.

The schools argument is too simplistic as well, since RC schools admit children of all faiths and there is no such thing as Protestant schools.

Anti-Catholic bigotry is part of the establishment in this country and has been since the Reformation. Anti-Catholic feeling also has roots among the working classes since many Irish workers came and were paid less by the bosses so creating resentment among Scots Protestants - classic devide and rule politics by the Capitalist Ruling classes. Add to that mix alcohol and then you have all the right ingredients for a stabbing.

And it is not just Glasgow, although it is an easy target. Alcohol fueled violence is rife through out this country, but I don't hear any on here calling for an alcohol ban.

As much as I would love to see a points deduction against the OF how exactly could it be worked? I hear huns belting out the billy boys again, which is one of the banned songs but not a squeak from the SPL or SFA.

We used to sing all the rebel songs and it has stopped at ER, how did that happen? If it can be done at ER it can be done else where surely.There would have tae be a will tae do something about it, with those clubs there is none, they have built themselves up on it. Every time there is an incident we hear the same things from those clubs/SPl/SFA about how they are going tae do this, that and the other tae stop it but it's all just wind and pish.

[Removed]

There would have tae be a will tae do something about it, with those clubs there is none, they have built themselves up on it. Every time there is an incident we hear the same things from those clubs/SPl/SFA about how they are going tae do this, that and the other tae stop it but it's all just wind and pish.

:agree: Exactly.

[Pretty Boy]

I always think it's a bit of a 'lazy' way to look at the sectarian issue by placing the blame with segregated schooling.

First off i think it's important people remeber one of the main reasons for seperate Catholic schooling coming into being was the horrendous sectarian abuse faced by Catholics in this country many years ago, whilst things have improved dramatically as a poster has said above there is still an underlying anti-Catholicism deep within the establishment of Scotland.

I was educated in a Catholic school and i never felt i was being taught to dislike or direpect Protestants or Protestantism. I also never felt different from Protestants, children who i was friends with from around where i lived who went to a different school were still my friends. I have been away from school for a good few years now and i have far more friends who are Protestant, other religions or have no faith than i do Catholic friends. Catholics schools also admit children of all faiths, there were Catholics, Portestants, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs at my school and probably a few people from other religions that i wasn't aware of as well. Perhaps if we wish to see true desegregation in Britain we could start by getting rid of the Catholic Relief Act 1829 which effectively stops a Roman Catholic ever becoming Prime Minister.:wink:

When it comes to the bigotry that surrounds the OF i'd say a lot of it is based on total ignorance from both sides. It's a small minded 'us and them' mentality that has been passed down generations and is used to give a sense of belonging. I think people also underestimate how prevelant the '90 minute bigot' is. I know a Rangers supporter who's son is married to a Catholic, he attended the wedding in a Catholic church, his grandchildren were baptised as Catholics yet he admits he goes to Ibrox and quite happily sings the Billy Boys, the Sash, Derry's Walls, No Pope of Rome etc. How do you deal with someone like that? Are they truly a bigot?

Something has to be done but changing the mindset of 2 sets of football supporters who have been brought up to hate the other lot all their lives is a long and challenging road.

[IWasThere2016]

I always think it's a bit of a 'lazy' way to look at the sectarian issue by placing the blame with segregated schooling.


Something has to be done but changing the mindset of 2 sets of football supporters who have been brought up to hate the other lot all their lives is a long and challenging road.

I didn't blame the schools - but I am convinced it doesn't help (as an aside I think it will be a minority % attending a RC school that practice their faith).

As stated before points and bans are the only way to tackle this problem.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't blame the schools - but I am convinced it doesn't help (as an aside I think it will be a minority % attending a RC school that practice their faith).

As stated before points and bans are the only way to tackle this problem.

Garry, that might work where the bigotry is associated with sport, but bigotry exists elsewhere in society, IMHO of course.

[Geo_1875]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/mobile/scotland/12900677.stm

Reference to 'education' .. Perhaps if we didn't start with separation from Primary 1 with split denomination schools the problem might disappear sooner?

Political talk of 'inclusion' and we have division at aged 4/5.

Personally, docking points and disqualifying them from the cups is the only way this nonsense will go away any time soon. Otherwise, the usual lip service and inaction will continue.

Sorry mate, the 90 minute bigot is a myth. A bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

[IWasThere2016]

Garry, that might work where the bigotry is associated with sport, but bigotry exists elsewhere in society, IMHO of course.

Sure - but its a weekly breeding ground at OF games.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anti-Catholic bigotry is part of the establishment in this country and has been since the Reformation. Anti-Catholic feeling also has roots among the working classes since many Irish workers came and were paid less by the bosses so creating resentment among Scots Protestants - classic devide and rule politics by the Capitalist Ruling classes. Add to that mix alcohol and then you have all the right ingredients for a stabbing.

Good post, but I have to disagree with this point. Scotland had a much less bloody reformation than elsewhere.

I think the real schism was manufactured by the ruling classes after the First World War. Fearful of a socialist revolution following what happened at George Square, they took measures to divide the Scottish working class - such as importing workers from Northern Ireland.

I have to admit, my hypothesis isn't based on any real research, but there certainly seemed to be an increase in bigotry after WW1.

[truehibernian]

I am just too simplistic in my ever growing old age. Does it not also boil down to parenting and peer groups. I didn't go to a Catholic school, but was lucky to go to a school in Edinburgh whose catchment took in all races and religions. Really wasn't an issue at all whether I was sat next to my white mate or my Chinese mate. We all had a common interest in football, girls and music :greengrin But again, my parents didn't sit at the dinner table and spout bile or be derogatory about other minority groups or religions, despite what was going on in the world at the time.

My eldest does go to a Catholic school, and what impressed me was not only the quality of teaching but the good discipline that is taught. The school is exactly what I want for my son. But again, the faith side of it wasn't the reason for him going there......the quality of school was. In fact, I think he would be hard pushed to tell me what a Protestant was/is......it's just not an issue nor is it really anything he would be bothered about. It's certainly not taught in a negative sense at his school. He is just interested in Hibs and his Xbox :greengrin

When you see a youngster walking down Easter Road with his old man draped in a Union Jack, or a group of bairns walking beside men singing songs about Ireland draped in their flag and not the Scottish one.......I'm sorry, that is where it begins for me. Not at school. Begins in the home and our own living rooms IMHO. That's where the seed of bigotry and "difference" is planted.

[MrSmith]

Schools should be non-denominational and free to all.

Religion puts obstacles in the way of everyone.

e.g.
1. I'm not an atheist but not religious, so therefor I am doomed to hell by all major religions! Thanks for that becuase I'm no a bad guy, quite like people and respect all who I engage with! Wouldn't hurt anyone either.

2. I can easily give time to help in 'soup kitchens' or similar for free with no attachments however, with some, these kitchens come with an added cost attached "You will get the soup after we have spoken at you about religion for a little while". or the people who need most will be instructed to attend a church!

Changes needed are those of a human nature in terms of engagement, encouragement, support and simple human values like manners and respect in all schools and walks of life.

The problem we have here, in Scotland is that the Catholics moan that everyone hates them while the protestants protest at the Catholics protesting which is a bit of an enigma in itself! And, the Islamists, Jews and other minority religions in this country fight amongst themselves over Western and Eastern values!

I essence I'll quote Bill, "Be excellent to each other"

[Hibercelona]

I am just too simplistic in my ever growing old age. Does it not also boil down to parenting and peer groups. I didn't go to a Catholic school, but was lucky to go to a school in Edinburgh whose catchment took in all races and religions. Really wasn't an issue at all whether I was sat next to my white mate or my Chinese mate. We all had a common interest in football, girls and music :greengrin But again, my parents didn't sit at the dinner table and spout bile or be derogatory about other minority groups or religions, despite what was going on in the world at the time.

My eldest does go to a Catholic school, and what impressed me was not only the quality of teaching but the good discipline that is taught. The school is exactly what I want for my son. But again, the faith side of it wasn't the reason for him going there......the quality of school was. In fact, I think he would be hard pushed to tell me what a Protestant was/is......it's just not an issue nor is it really anything he would be bothered about. It's certainly not taught in a negative sense at his school. He is just interested in Hibs and his Xbox :greengrin

When you see a youngster walking down Easter Road with his old man draped in a Union Jack, or a group of bairns walking beside men singing songs about Ireland draped in their flag and not the Scottish one.......I'm sorry, that is where it begins for me. Not at school. Begins in the home and our own living rooms IMHO. That's where the seed of bigotry and "difference" is planted.

:top marks

My thoughts exactly. :agree:

[JimBHibees]

I always think it's a bit of a 'lazy' way to look at the sectarian issue by placing the blame with segregated schooling.

First off i think it's important people remeber one of the main reasons for seperate Catholic schooling coming into being was the horrendous sectarian abuse faced by Catholics in this country many years ago, whilst things have improved dramatically as a poster has said above there is still an underlying anti-Catholicism deep within the establishment of Scotland.

I was educated in a Catholic school and i never felt i was being taught to dislike or direpect Protestants or Protestantism. I also never felt different from Protestants, children who i was friends with from around where i lived who went to a different school were still my friends. I have been away from school for a good few years now and i have far more friends who are Protestant, other religions or have no faith than i do Catholic friends. Catholics schools also admit children of all faiths, there were Catholics, Portestants, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs at my school and probably a few people from other religions that i wasn't aware of as well. Perhaps if we wish to see true desegregation in Britain we could start by getting rid of the Catholic Relief Act 1829 which effectively stops a Roman Catholic ever becoming Prime Minister.:wink:

When it comes to the bigotry that surrounds the OF i'd say a lot of it is based on total ignorance from both sides. It's a small minded 'us and them' mentality that has been passed down generations and is used to give a sense of belonging. I think people also underestimate how prevelant the '90 minute bigot' is. I know a Rangers supporter who's son is married to a Catholic, he attended the wedding in a Catholic church, his grandchildren were baptised as Catholics yet he admits he goes to Ibrox and quite happily sings the Billy Boys, the Sash, Derry's Walls, No Pope of Rome etc. How do you deal with someone like that? Are they truly a bigot?

Something has to be done but changing the mindset of 2 sets of football supporters who have been brought up to hate the other lot all their lives is a long and challenging road.

Excellent post IMO. People have choices to make in their lifes and some make the wrong ones and justify to themselves it is only a game, I sing along but dont believe in the words, rot.

When UEFA started fining Rangers were forced in to action and the club were very vocal in outlining songs that were not to be sung, the FTP brigade Murray and Bain used to call them. Unfortunately it appears for whatever reason primarily UEFA saying it was up to the SFA to deal with it :faf: we are back to any song being allowed to be sung which is an appalling shame when no doubt Rangers like every club will be trying to encourage kids and families to attend their games. Some of the songs sung are simply unacceptable in this day and age and I have no idea what impression people watching around the world must make of Scotland, no doubt some primitive medieval backwater.

[New Corrie]

My youngest is still at St Mary's Leith and his class is made up of kids who are sikh, muslim, RC, protestant and 'unfaithed'.

I'll agree with scrapping faith schools when private schools are abolished. A cause of far more division in Edinburgh society :agree:

My, what a constructive argument for keeping faith schools.

[dangermouse]

Wow, that is a leap adding two and two regarding domestic abuse and bigotry, I don't think the two things can be tied together. I would imagine most bigots would marry or live with someone of the same faith. So it would make more sense if they beat up their neighbours wife after a game.

The schools argument is too simplistic as well, since RC schools admit children of all faiths and there is no such thing as Protestant schools.

Anti-Catholic bigotry is part of the establishment in this country and has been since the Reformation. Anti-Catholic feeling also has roots among the working classes since many Irish workers came and were paid less by the bosses so creating resentment among Scots Protestants - classic devide and rule politics by the Capitalist Ruling classes. Add to that mix alcohol and then you have all the right ingredients for a stabbing.

And it is not just Glasgow, although it is an easy target. Alcohol fueled violence is rife through out this country, but I don't hear any on here calling for an alcohol ban.

As much as I would love to see a points deduction against the OF how exactly could it be worked? I hear huns belting out the billy boys again, which is one of the banned songs but not a squeak from the SPL or SFA.

We used to sing all the rebel songs and it has stopped at ER, how did that happen? If it can be done at ER it can be done else where surely.

Sadly, at least one has being resurrected by the singing section along with some other ditties we should put behind us namely the Rudi song.

[sambajustice]

Sadly, at least one has being resurrected by the singing section along with some other ditties we should put behind us namely the Rudi song.

What one is that?

[superfurryhibby]

Good post, but I have to disagree with this point. Scotland had a much less bloody reformation than elsewhere.

I think the real schism was manufactured by the ruling classes after the First World War. Fearful of a socialist revolution following what happened at George Square, they took measures to divide the Scottish working class - such as importing workers from Northern Ireland.

I have to admit, my hypothesis isn't based on any real research, but there certainly seemed to be an increase in bigotry after WW1.


This is a bit of an aside but the big shipyards like Harland and Wolf (spelling?)were well established before the start of WW1. Bill MUrray's book, "The Old Firm-Sectarianism , Sport and Societyin Scotland" highlights the influx of Ulster Protestants in the late 1890's as being a big factor in the realignment of Rangers as a bastion of protestantism , in opposition to the emergent Celtic. Prior to this era the only sectarian club in Scotland had been Hibernian.

I reckon the Easter uprising and the subsequent events also hardened attitudes and we saw the rise of "Protestant Action " in Edinburgh (1930') where they managed to get elected represenattives into the city council. I believe Leith was a particular hotspot for this group.

Faith schools are but one element in the division that perpetrates sectarianism in Scotland, there are other. I believe that football has had even more influence and clearly both Old Firm teams have made a great deal of money by exploiting the misguided views of their fans. What makes this all ultimately ironic is that the vast majority will never attend church and they most likely not be able to explain what doctrinal differences set them apart from each other. How ignorant is that?

[marinello59]

I am just too simplistic in my ever growing old age. Does it not also boil down to parenting and peer groups. I didn't go to a Catholic school, but was lucky to go to a school in Edinburgh whose catchment took in all races and religions. Really wasn't an issue at all whether I was sat next to my white mate or my Chinese mate. We all had a common interest in football, girls and music :greengrin But again, my parents didn't sit at the dinner table and spout bile or be derogatory about other minority groups or religions, despite what was going on in the world at the time.

My eldest does go to a Catholic school, and what impressed me was not only the quality of teaching but the good discipline that is taught. The school is exactly what I want for my son. But again, the faith side of it wasn't the reason for him going there......the quality of school was. In fact, I think he would be hard pushed to tell me what a Protestant was/is......it's just not an issue nor is it really anything he would be bothered about. It's certainly not taught in a negative sense at his school. He is just interested in Hibs and his Xbox :greengrin

When you see a youngster walking down Easter Road with his old man draped in a Union Jack, or a group of bairns walking beside men singing songs about Ireland draped in their flag and not the Scottish one.......I'm sorry, that is where it begins for me. Not at school. Begins in the home and our own living rooms IMHO. That's where the seed of bigotry and "difference" is planted.

:top marks

[dangermouse]

What one is that?

The one about the "Tim Malloy's"

[Baldy Foghorn]

Sorry mate, the 90 minute bigot is a myth. A bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

Agree, you don't suddenly become a bigot during a match, then stop afterwards

[LancashireHibby]

On the topic of the "90 minute bigot", I'd say the example stated is clearly someone who doesn't have anything against Catholics and is merely joining in with what he sees as the songs of his football team. I think that says more about Rangers than it does the person involved as such songs are considered to be the norm. And, let's be honest, what songs would Rangers have left if they finally got rid of the sectarian element?

[sambajustice]

The one about the "Tim Malloy's"

THATS a rebel song??? :faint:

[dangermouse]

THATS a rebel song??? :faint:

Maybe so but it's still the sort of stuff I'd rather see stamped out before we go blowing our own trumpet about the songs we sing.

To be fair, our singing section cannot in any way shape or form be compared to the bigot brothers.

[JimBHibees]

Maybe so but it's still the sort of stuff I'd rather see stamped out before we go blowing our own trumpet about the songs we sing.

To be fair, our singing section cannot in any way shape or form be compared to the bigot brothers.

Tend to agree no need for it.

[ELZ1875]

As a few folk have said, the only way things will change is by deducting points, banned from Europe, etc, but that wont happen. Regan is so spineless he wont even blame the OF directly, it's everybody who needs educated dont you know?

To be honest the sooner religion is banned in public places the better for everyone, but that wont happen either.

[Keith_M]

Just thought I'd add to the argument.

I wonder just how many of these Celtc/Rangers fans are actually followers of any religion. I'd be very surprised if many of them ever attended church, outside of a funeral or wedding. The Protestant/Catholic thing has just become one massive social tribe that either of them claim to belong to.

[MrSmith]

Just thought I'd add to the argument.

I wonder just how many of these Celtc/Rangers fans are actually followers of any religion. I'd be very surprised if many of them ever attended church, outside of a funeral or wedding. The Protestant/Catholic thing has just become one massive social tribe that either of them claim to belong to.

A fair point considering Scotland lost its 'Christian' status over a decade ago due to less than 25% attending a church of any religion.

[New Corrie]

See when adults introduce children into a Religion that discriminates against women/gays, how does that make them any better than OF fans that sing stupid songs?

[marinello59]

See when adults introduce children into a Religion that discriminates against women/gays, how does that make them any better than OF fans that sing stupid songs?

Can't help displaying your own bigotry can you? Give it a rest.

[hibsbollah]

See when adults introduce children into a Religion that discriminates against women/gays, how does that make them any better than OF fans that sing stupid songs?

Is that you mormon-bashing again?

[New Corrie]

Can't help displaying your own bigotry can you? Give it a rest.


Why not just answer the question instead?

[marinello59]

Why not just answer the question instead?

Why bother? It's just you following your normal Catholic bashing agenda.

[New Corrie]

Why bother? It's just you following your normal Catholic bashing agenda.


Whatever you say, wouldn't answer the question, funny how bigotry is acceptable and beyond question in some quarters, shows up who the real bigots are.

[Westie1875]

See when adults introduce children into a Religion that discriminates against women/gays, how does that make them any better than OF fans that sing stupid songs?

When did this turn into a debate about the beliefs of the catholic church? I don't see anyone suggesting that they are better than the fans (from either side) that sing songs.

[hibsbollah]

I agree. Brigham Young has a lot to answer for. Bassa.

[CropleyWasGod]

Whatever you say, wouldn't answer the question, funny how bigotry is acceptable and beyond question in some quarters, shows up who the real bigots are.

But isn't this a fundamental part of the problem?. One side always says the other side are worse than them..

[truehibernian]

Why not just answer the question instead?

Do people from all faiths not show degrees of sexism, homophobia, racism and ageism ?

You seem to have picked a couple of particular topics and labelled a whole faith as being this way. I can tell you from my point of view that you are talking nonsense. I am catholic and I have no issue in the slightest with anyone gay, straight, protestant or female. I was brought up to respect people and treat people the same as I would want to be treated myself. That is not to say that I take some of my faith seriously. As I said in a previous post I was also lucky to go to a very good, inclusive, Edinburgh state school where I would be sitting next to white, chinese, asian and no doubt gay males and females........but all we were interested in was football, clothes, music and copping a read of razzle now and again. I don't think I was ever once remotely bothered, interested or intrigued about whether my asian mate was a muslim, or my chinese mate buddhist, christian or anything else..........we all read the same razzle and had a laugh together :greengrin

Education, tolerance, taking a more modern and all inclusive stance on faith is what we should all be supporting and striving for, regardless of what church you choose to follow.

The very tone of your one line post suggests to me that you are the one with a degree of intolerance and a lack of understanding. Do you honestly think I bring up my children to have a negative view of those that are a different sexuality or to demean a woman ? All boils down to parenting.......not religion !

[New Corrie]

But isn't this a fundamental part of the problem?. One side always says the other side are worse than them..


Correct, try getting them to acknowledge that they are equally culpable though.

[New Corrie]

Do people from all faiths not show degrees of sexism, homophobia, racism and ageism ?

You seem to have picked a couple of particular topics and labelled a whole faith as being this way. I can tell you from my point of view that you are talking nonsense. I am catholic and I have no issue in the slightest with anyone gay, straight, protestant or female. I was brought up to respect people and treat people the same as I would want to be treated myself. That is not to say that I take some of my faith seriously. As I said in a previous post I was also lucky to go to a very good, inclusive, Edinburgh state school where I would be sitting next to white, chinese, asian and no doubt gay males and females........but all we were interested in was football, clothes, music and copping a read of razzle now and again. I don't think I was ever once remotely bothered, interested or intrigued about whether my asian mate was a muslim, or my chinese mate buddhist, christian or anything else..........we all read the same razzle and had a laugh together :greengrin

Education, tolerance, taking a more modern and all inclusive stance on faith is what we should all be supporting and striving for, regardless of what church you choose to follow.

The very tone of your one line post suggests to me that you are the one with a degree of intolerance and a lack of understanding. Do you honestly think I bring up my children to have a negative view of those that are a different sexuality or to demean a woman ? All boils down to parenting.......not religion !

Yes they do, but why are they exempt from the scrutiny and derision? Is it that snob thing again?, sneering upon the non believers and demonising jakey football fans who sing dubious songs? Well, i'd rather be in the company of Celtic/Rangers fans, who probably deep down know they are poorly educated bigots, rather than pious, church going, sanctimonious smart ***** who think that somehow their anti gay/women prejudices are acceptable and immune to critisism. They are the real Scotland's shame. but hey. we'll just blame some half daft OF fans instead.

[Baader]

Some of the most ignorant, intolerant and judgemental people I've met are ones who claim religion is some evil affliction.

I've mixed feelings but it's an individual thing - does anyone ever agree 100% with a doctrine or philosophy they follow? Some shouldn't be so quick to condemn.

Anyway, Act of Settlement still bars any Catholic from occupying the highest office in the land and marrying into Royalty so I wouldn't hold out for much changing...

[New Corrie]

Some of the most ignorant, intolerant and judgemental people I've met are ones who claim religion is some evil affliction.

I've mixed feelings but it's an individual thing - does anyone ever agree 100% with a doctrine or philosophy they follow? Some shouldn't be so quick to condemn.

Anyway, Act of Settlement still bars any Catholic from occupying the highest office in the land and marrying into Royalty so I wouldn't hold out for much changing...

And the Catholic church still bars women from it's highest office, difference please?????

[Baader]

Not for that either. But I do not elect leaders to the Church. I do not work for the benefit of the Church. I was not born a 'subject' of the Church and I don't pay tax to the Church despite the fact it'll bar me from reaching a position everyone born in this country should be able to aspire to in a proper democracy. Even the Church wouldn't really admit to being a 'democracy' in the truest sense of the word - yet the UK does.

Hypocrisy isn't exclusive to religion. Religion only offers moral guidance to those willing to listen, it does not pass law in this country. How can we actively seek to end sectarianism when it is still entrenched in the laws of this land?

[The Slav]

As a few folk have said, the only way things will change is by deducting points, banned from Europe, etc, but that wont happen. Regan is so spineless he wont even blame the OF directly, it's everybody who needs educated dont you know?

To be honest the sooner religion is banned in public places the better for everyone, but that wont happen either.

Interesting to note in todays Metro, one of the Hibs players as being quoted about how the players and fans will have to behave themselves on Sunday after what has happened at the OF games

Wouldn't be ironic - You can almost guarantee that the first Club to be fined points for misbehaving/singing sectarian songs will not be either of the bigot brothers.


Very true ..

What about the Politicians too? I wonder if Salmond or Gray will be brave enough to take this problem on ahead of the Scottish elections :cool2: I seem to recall Jack McConnell talking the talk and doing nowt also not that long ago.

OF GTF :agree:

Leave these muppets out of it - some wise man once told me never to mix religion, politics and sport

[1875godsgift]

And the Catholic church still bars women from it's highest office, difference please?????

You seem to have some sort of anti catholic agenda.
Why spout about it on here?
I'm sure there's some more apt forums.

[marinello59]

Whatever you say, wouldn't answer the question, funny how bigotry is acceptable and beyond question in some quarters, shows up who the real bigots are.

You have basically opined that all Catholics must be bigots. It's breathtakingly ignorant. And please don't insult our intelligence by denying your prejudice. It's always the Catholic Church you attack, never other religions. Like I said in my first answer to you, why don't you give it a rest? Religious institutions are fair game for attack. Sweeping statements about all members of a particular faith is something else entirely though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Some of the most ignorant, intolerant and judgemental people I've met are ones who claim religion is some evil affliction.

I've mixed feelings but it's an individual thing - does anyone ever agree 100% with a doctrine or philosophy they follow? Some shouldn't be so quick to condemn.

Anyway, Act of Settlement still bars any Catholic from occupying the highest office in the land and marrying into Royalty so I wouldn't hold out for much changing...

Is there an Act that bars Protestants from being Pope, or did they not have to bother? What about the one that prevents Protestants from being head teachers of Catholic Schools (OK, I know there are some, but hardly a representative proportion).

[Phil D. Rolls]

You have basically opined that all Catholics must be bigots. It's breathtakingly ignorant. And please don't insult our intelligence by denying your prejudice. It's always the Catholic Church you attack, never other religions. Like I said in my first answer to you, why don't you give it a rest? Religious institutions are fair game for attack. Sweeping statements about all members of a particular faith is something else entirely though.

I got the impression he could just as easily have been talking about Islam, tbh.

[marinello59]

I got the impression he could just as easily have been talking about Islam, tbh.

Aye, he could have. But he wasn't.

[Baader]

Is there an Act that bars Protestants from being Pope, or did they not have to bother? What about the one that prevents Protestants from being head teachers of Catholic Schools (OK, I know there are some, but hardly a representative proportion).

Now, why would a Protestant want to become Pope? Or a Muslim cleric a Rabbi?

:dunno:

[MrSmith]

Now, why would a Protestant want to become Pope? Or a Muslim cleric a Rabbi?

:dunno:

We best be careful about using the term 'protestant' because it is a Catholic term used to describe non Catholics.

There is no church of protestant just people who don't believe in Catholicism. And again from me another example of name calling and obstacles being put in the way of engaging with one another in terms of mutual respect and decency.

Maybe I will become an atheist! At least then I won't have to concern myself with hypocrisy!!

[--------]

violent division?

wee stat - did you know domestic abuse goes up 88% in glasgow after old firm matches? this is down the the hatred and anger that only a religion based rivalry can produce.

(i think private schools are a crock of ***** as well, for the record)


Really? ONLY a religion-based rivalry can produce this sort of thing? So the best way to stamp out domestic abuse would be to get rid of everyone but the atheists? Atheists never beat up their wives or partners?

Bigot alert, pal - and YOU'RE it!

FWIW, I'm one of the chaplains to the local primary school. There are three of us, and we take turns in visiting. No child is forced to come to an assembly when we're there, and we have clear guidelines about we can and cannot say.

There is an RC school in the same building, run entirely separately. What the situation in that school may be I don't know. All I know is that when I meet staff, pupils or parents from this school, we speak to one another nicely and express concern for one another's and our families' welfare.

We DO NOT throw empty Buckfast bottles at one another. Not even when the priest and I meet in the street - no swearing, no sectarian songs, no bike chains or razors. Honest.

My own congregation run a kids' club in the school one lunchtime a week, an evening club for boys and girls of primary age, and we've just started an Anchor Boys' group which we hope might grow into a full Boys' Brigade company. No one is forced to send or bring their children along - everything's by invitation, and again, there are very strict guidelines about how we're allowed to deal with the kids. Every adult involved, myself included, undergoes regular police checks, and we observe best practice guidelines meticulously. We can't operate otherwise.

ALL these groups are open to ALL the children of the relevant age-group, from either primary school.

The problem in the Caldera is very deep-seated, and I think FR touched on one aspect of it when he mentioned the immigration of workers from Ireland during the First World War. Many of these men took jon=bs that had been vacated by Scotsmen who had either volunteered or been conscripted into military service. When these Scots came home from the war, they found it hard to get their jobs back. The employers were paying less to the Irish workers than they had been paying to the Scots.

A larger-than-needed workforce means one thing alone to an employer - lower wages, lower costs, higher profits. The workers' answer would normally be to organise a union and strike for better wages and conditions. The ethnic and religious differences - Irish/Scots, Catholic/Protestant, native/immigrant - were exploited by the employers, and, sadly, on many occasions this exploitation was connived at by religious leaders.

The RC Church could use the sense of oppression and alienation to hold on to its people, while the Protestant churches remembered which side their bread was buttered by, and supported the employers (who were often the biggest contributors to funds).

None of this, BTW, has anything at all to do with the teachings or identity of Jesus of Nazareth - it's all to do with organised institutional 'religion', which was the one thing guaranteed to make Jesus of Nazareth get VERY angry indeed.

(Check the gospels if you don't believe me.)

I have a number of Rangers supporters among my friends and congregation. Some of them are in the LOI, some aren't. Actually, they aren't rabid, slavering bigots - they're football supporters some of whom have the same low opinion of Celtic fans as many subscribers to Hibs.net express about our friends from Gorgie. It's about football, in other words, not religion.

Most of the Rangers supporters in the area - who would all claim to be 'Protestant', btw - never cross the door of my church or any church, except at funerals.

The Celtic supporters in the village are more or less a mirror-image. Those who attend church are by far the most reasonable. The nastier they are, the less likely they are to have ever crossed the door of St Mary's.

Rangers and Celtic give ethnic identity to two groups in the community which they otherwise might not possess. As does the existence of TWO primary schools, unfortunately. But the people in the schools are working positively to eradicate the problem - admittedly, there are one or two 'problem' individuals in each school, but their influence is a lot less than they (or the bigots on either side) would like.

Rangers and Celtic, however, depend on the permanence of the sectarian divisions in Scotland to maximise profits and attract and hold on to support. So they're doing nothing at all about the problem.

A one-stream education system would allow the present education budget to provide a much better education for the children. Duplication of posts - head-teachers and deputy head-teachers payments could be cut by at least a third; classes combined with a reduction in class sizes at the same time as a reduction in the number of class teachers; office-staff duplication could be eradicated. The money released could provide dedicated art, PE, music and learning-support teachers, class-room assistants, equipment and facilities. This is the argument for a one-stream system, not that it CAUSES bigotry. The present set-up reflects a division, and may help to perpetuate it. It didn't cause it.

Nor do the people who worship in my congregation, or in my friend Con's congregation up the road, or in any of the others around. We're actually trying to get on with one another.

It's the Catholic and Protestant atheists who are the real troublemakers. :devil:

[Peevemor]

We best be careful about using the term 'protestant' because it is a Catholic term used to describe non Catholics.

There is no church of protestant just people who don't believe in Catholicism. And again from me another example of name calling and obstacles being put in the way of engaging with one another in terms of mutual respect and decency.

Maybe I will become an atheist! At least then I won't have to concern myself with hypocrisy!!

I don't think so. The term refers to the majority of non RC christian churches, though some, such as the Mormons, strictly reject the term.

[--------]

We best be careful about using the term 'protestant' because it is a Catholic term used to describe non Catholics.

There is no church of protestant just people who don't believe in Catholicism. And again from me another example of name calling and obstacles being put in the way of engaging with one another in terms of mutual respect and decency.

Maybe I will become an atheist! At least then I won't have to concern myself with hypocrisy!!


Hmm.

My experience, there as many atheist hypocrites as there are religious ones.

Re-read some of the posts on this thread, mate. :rolleyes:

[--------]

I don't think so. The term refers to the majority of non RC christian churches, though some, such as the Mormons, strictly reject the term.


Mormons ain't Christian - unless it's Christian to believe in interstellar spiritual planet-colonisation after you die.

And don't call me a Protestant - I'm a Christian long way before any denominationalism comes into the equation.

Christianity - the genuine stuff - is the only thing I know that if you try to add something to it, you end up taking away everything that really matters.

[Peevemor]

Mormons ain't Christian - unless it's Christian to believe in interstellar spiritual planet-colonisation after you die.

And don't call me a Protestant - I'm a Christian long way before any denominationalism comes into the equation.

Christianity - the genuine stuff - is the only thing I know that if you try to add something to it, you end up taking away everything that really matters.

Are their beliefs not based on their interpretation of the new testament? It'd be pretty difficult the omit the Jesus stuff I'd have thought.

[MrSmith]

Mormons ain't Christian - unless it's Christian to believe in interstellar spiritual planet-colonisation after you die.

And don't call me a Protestant - I'm a Christian long way before any denominationalism comes into the equation.

Christianity - the genuine stuff - is the only thing I know that if you try to add something to it, you end up taking away everything that really matters.

Humanism - the original and pre-dates any modern religion!

You are quite correct re atheist hypocrisy. My point was in context of religion.

[--------]

Humanism - the original and pre-dates any modern religion!

You are quite correct re atheist hypocrisy. My point was in context of religion.


I know a lot of humanist hypocrites as well, Mr S.

And for many people, atheism IS their religion, and they're just as bigoted about it as any of the religious believers they attack.

Me, I don't like 'religion' - I prefer Jesus. :aok:

[--------]

Are their beliefs not based on their interpretation of the new testament? It'd be pretty difficult the omit the Jesus stuff I'd have thought.


They have three 'holy' books - The Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price.

When they come to your door, they portray themselves as 'Bible scholars'; once they get you into the 'church' the Old and New Testaments pretty much fade out and the other three rule.

They call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but Jesus isn't anything like as important or authoritative to them as their Prophets are - Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all the others down to the present and 16th one, Thomas Monson.

His official title is Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

And as I understand it, he speaks for God.

[Corstorphine Hibby]

See when adults introduce children into a Religion that discriminates against women/gays, how does that make them any better than OF fans that sing stupid songs?

I am one of those adults whom you talk about Duncan.
I take my daughter to the RC side of the same school your son goes to. I teach her about understanding and respect for other human beings be they gay, female, black, Muslim, non Catholic or whatever. Can you say the same about what you teach your son, who goes to the non denominational side of the same school ?
You seem to take a great deal of satisfaction and an abnormal amount of time in slating the Catholic church/religion. Cherry picking the negative aspects that suit your bigoted agenda but, curiously, never taking any opportunity to highlight the many positive works that the Catholic church engages in not only in this country, but worldwide.
As a practicing Catholic, I am not saying that every aspect of the Catholic church teaching is perfect.
You, as a bigot, can pick whatever aspect suits your warped agenda against Catholics and their faith, but, sadly can never find anything positive to say about any aspect of the religion.
I have no doubt that you will be passing on your narrow minded bigoted garbage to your son, who will then pass it on to his family and so on.

Depressing.

[bighairyfaeleith]

The solution is to build a wall around the stadium at the next old firm game and dinnae let the pricks get out!!

Let them rot in the hate filled arena, scotland will be better for it:agree:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Really? ONLY a religion-based rivalry can produce this sort of thing? So the best way to stamp out domestic abuse would be to get rid of everyone but the atheists? Atheists never beat up their wives or partners?

Bigot alert, pal - and YOU'RE it!


feel as though i should defend myself here. nothing i said makes me a bigot. at no point did i say theists should be stamped out, nor did i imply it. you're just being defensive :wink:

to be fair, i think what i said was a bit exaggerated, but you really have to accept that though it can be a fantastic and very positive thing, religion one of the most divisive things on the planet, and causes an incredible amount of violence. to go around thinking "what i believe is the absolute truth" is a very dangerous (and staggeringly naive, might i add) mind set. there's a stat i read somewhere, that more people have died 'in the name' of jesus than any other person in history.

i'm not saying that proper religion teaches this stuff, but to deny its roll in many of the troubles of the world is sticking your head in the sand.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I know a lot of humanist hypocrites as well, Mr S.

And for many people, atheism IS their religion, and they're just as bigoted about it as any of the religious believers they attack.

Me, I don't like 'religion' - I prefer Jesus. :aok:

He doesnae exist ya fanny:greengrin

[AgentDaleCooper]

Me, I don't like 'religion' - I prefer Jesus. :aok:

very intelligent way of looking at christianity, this :agree:

[Hibercelona]

Me, I don't like 'religion' - I prefer Jesus. :aok:

Jesus was Jewish dontcha know... :wink:

[Twa Cairpets]

There is absolutely no doubt that the defining, underlying reason for all the Old Firm guff is religion.

And thats not having a pop at Doddie, for example, because I would expect that the bible and church are (for those of protestant persuasion in particular), alien concepts. Ask your typical buckfast swigging hun knuckle dragger why he thinks catholicism is bad and you're luck if you get past "'cos they're fenian bastirts". Dont expect much by way of a theological discussion, because I'd be willing to bet 95%+ of the bigots - and thats what they are - at these vile institutions are so from a position of startling ignorance in every sense of the word.

From an atheist point of view, it's baffling that someone would want to associate themselves with any given particular medieval version of christian doctrine as a basis for hatred of another. I hope that's not too hypocrytical for the tastes of some on the thread...

I agree that the fear, suspicion and loathing come from a lack of understanding and basic tolerance. There are examples on this thread and others that clearly demonstrate the posters view that "I dont like or understand what your belief system is about and therefore I'm going to put everyone of that ilk in a big sack and hate them all equally". Stupidity and prejudice are basic factors of human nature unfortunately, and every opportunity to challenge them should be grabbed, such as getting rid of faith schools. I havent a clue what justification there can be for having any faith based indoctrination in an education system be it RC, CofE, Muslim, whatever, but to claim that it is not at least a contributory factor to ongoing religious division and tension is absolute head-in-sand-stuff.

Little Timmy Shaughnessy is going to be in a peer group that reinforces the prejudices of his parents in exactly the same way as little Bobby Hunboy. You need only take a walk around Larkhall, Airdrie or Coatbridge (all places I have worked) to see the absolute truth of this.

[DCI Gene Hunt]

Bigotry is something that doesn't have anything to do with schools, religion (or lack of it), culture or anything else.

The root cause of bigotry is that it is usually bred into each successive generation by bigoted, small-minded, hatefilled parents who pass their "wisdom" onto the kids who in turn indoctrinate their kids.

It is ironic that probably 80% of bigots who spew their vile bile about "Fenians" and "Proddys" aren't religious in the slightest, have never read the Bible (or any other text for that matter, apart from keech such as the Daily Star, Sun, Ladybird Book Of Fast Cars etc.) and merely parrot bollocks myths, untruths and twisted versions of history passed down through the bigoted generations that they have been bred with since before they were on solids.

There are religious bigots, atheist bigots, political bigots, social bigots, a bigot is a bigot nonetheless and is a trait that transcends all subjects, groups and forms.

How to sort the problem is a difficult question, we could try ridiculing/destroying their daft ideas but bigots don't tend to be open-minded nor willing to listen, hence how difficult it is to get rid of.

Gene Genie

[The Harp Awakes]

I am one of those adults whom you talk about Duncan.
I take my daughter to the RC side of the same school your son goes to. I teach her about understanding and respect for other human beings be they gay, female, black, Muslim, non Catholic or whatever. Can you say the same about what you teach your son, who goes to the non denominational side of the same school ?
You seem to take a great deal of satisfaction and an abnormal amount of time in slating the Catholic church/religion. Cherry picking the negative aspects that suit your bigoted agenda but, curiously, never taking any opportunity to highlight the many positive works that the Catholic church engages in not only in this country, but worldwide.
As a practicing Catholic, I am not saying that every aspect of the Catholic church teaching is perfect.
You, as a bigot, can pick whatever aspect suits your warped agenda against Catholics and their faith, but, sadly can never find anything positive to say about any aspect of the religion.
I have no doubt that you will be passing on your narrow minded bigoted garbage to your son, who will then pass it on to his family and so on.

Depressing.

Good post.

The Catholic Church like many other Christian churches and other religions are far from perfect but on the whole, IMO, they have a positive impact on society by providing support to local communities and help poor/disadvantaged people across the world.

Bigots will do everything they can to justify their actions and their own narrow view of life and will never recognise anything positive in relation to an organisation or person which they have been brought up to hate from an early age.

The bigotry in Scottish society is deep routed particularly in the West of Scotland. The choice is whether people in positions of influence continue to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist or whether at long last the issue is dealt with head on.

Blaming bigotry on seperate schools is nonsene and a complete red herring. Our near neighbours in England have denominational schools as well but have little or no issues with religious intollerence unlike we do in Scotland.

[--------]

He doesnae exist ya fanny:greengrin

That's only your opinion.


very intelligent way of looking at christianity, this :agree:

Thank you. I thought so too.


Jesus was Jewish dontcha know... :wink:

Jings, michty an helpmaboab! You don't tell me! I KNEW there was something I was missing! :devil:

There's a difference between religions that impose a set of rules on people - DO THIS, DON'T DO THAT, OR GOD'LL ZAP YOU WITH A THUNDERBOLT RIGHT INTO HELL - and what Jesus taught, which was simply that it is possible to have a close loving relationship with God, and that he Himself was the mediator by Whom this was possible. Saving faith isn't about keeping a big bunch of rules for fear that hellfire's going to get you. It's about responding in faith to the self-sacrifice of Christ on the cross. God reaching out to us, rather than us having to earn His grudging favour.

I always appreciate well-thought-out feedback, guys.

[TheBall'sRound]

Wow, that is a leap adding two and two regarding domestic abuse and bigotry, I don't think the two things can be tied together. I would imagine most bigots would marry or live with someone of the same faith. So it would make more sense if they beat up their neighbours wife after a game.


Exactly - the domestic abuse stat bandied around by the media is more to do with the vast amounts of (usually cheap, strong) alcohol consumed on match days. Usually there is only one set of fans getting tanked up in Glasgow when a game is played but on Old Firm day there are two sets and in greater numbers. The drinking culture surrounding football is also a huge issue for the nation - but one thing at a time, ay? :greengrin

[Greentinted]

None of this, BTW, has anything at all to do with the teachings or identity of Jesus of Nazareth - it's all to do with organised institutional 'religion', which was the one thing guaranteed to make Jesus of Nazareth get VERY angry indeed.

(Check the gospels if you don't believe me.)

:devil:

I enjoy and often take a great deal from your postings on this platform Doddie, but if I may, I feel I have to take issue with the above extract.
(The rest of the post from which it has been extrapolated, I concur with enthusiastically)
The bottom line is, as you have declared elsewhere on this thread in reply to a gentle dig regarding the Nazarene carpenters existence , that the belief of Jesus, is also merely opinion (disproportionately aggrandized, but an opinion all the same). His mystical spirituality is revered by believers, and hey, that's more than fine - Christianity for me should be about attempting to live decently and if an investment into a compendium of fables and fairy-tales returns people of fine standing then great - but to assert the fact that a long dead joiner from the middle-east would be angry (in the present tense) is simply forcing a belief system on others, many who have taken the time to attempt, at the very least, to acquire some knowledge.
To yourself, and others, who adhere to the tenets of Christianity, the Bible (particularly the New Testament) is scripture from God. But in reality, it is a book, just a book - or an anthology of ancient folk-lore. It may be your truth but it is not THE truth.
I have no interest in skewing the OPINION of anyone who chooses to believe in any supernatural/superstitious bunkum which guises under the banner of religion and that is why, I believe that all religion should play absolutely no part in the education system of our fair nation.
I apologise for any offense but the bigotry in the big picture is borne out of the theological claptrap forced onto us at a young age. And to eradicate the problem, you eradicate the monster at its source.
If people want to imbibe any form of mystical fillip, then please do so in a place of your own and keep out of the schools. That's why your God invented churches.

[--------]

"... but to assert the fact that a long dead joiner from the middle-east would be angry (in the present tense) is simply forcing a belief system on others ..."



To extrapolate - I note what you're saying and understand your objection.

I can only say that I have never threatened children with the wrath of God, and I hope I never will.

Might I also say that the Albanian government under Enver Hoxha attempted to eradicate all religion from the People's Republic - Christian, Muslim, whatever.

He killed an awful lot of people in a lot of very unpleasant ways, but he failed.

Now THAT's hateful, sadistic bigotry - the atheist kind.

[Paisley Hibby]

:top marks

Great post! :agree:

[bighairyfaeleith]

There is only one god worth worshipping folks


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2009/5/21/1242916098395/Hibernians-Franck-Sauzee--001.jpg

[Greentinted]

To extrapolate - I note what you're saying and understand your objection.

I can only say that I have never threatened children with the wrath of God, and I hope I never will.

Might I also say that the Albanian government under Enver Hoxha attempted to eradicate all religion from the People's Republic - Christian, Muslim, whatever.

He killed an awful lot of people in a lot of very unpleasant ways, but he failed.

Now THAT's hateful, sadistic bigotry - the atheist kind.

:agree: Aye, that is also very wrong.
Bigots come in varying hues, as we all know.

I'm not advocating the banning of religion; as I said, its the uncomfortable marriage of religion and mainstream education I'm taking issue with. The choice to worship a deity of any persuasion should be 100% the choice of the individual.

[bighairyfaeleith]

:agree: Aye, that is also very wrong.
Bigots come in varying hues, as we all know.

I'm not advocating the banning of religion; as I said, its the uncomfortable marriage of religion and mainstream education I'm taking issue with. The choice to worship a deity of any persuasion should be 100% the choice of the individual.

:agree:

[MrSmith]

Many folk on here stating Jesus was Jewish - was he though?? He came from the Qumran community that originated from Egypt. Jesus was a very popular name back then like Ian or John so what we need to know is the REAL Jesus the Christ or Messiah which mean King in waiting. I fully believe in Jesus but not as the religion attempts to teach us. I endorse the 'alternative' viewpoints and fully belive in the fact that Jesus the Christ was head of his humanist order.

Whether there is a god or not?? I cannot prove either way but as most Christians tell me I'll burn in hell for not believing...TBC :greengrin

[New Corrie]

I am one of those adults whom you talk about Duncan.
I take my daughter to the RC side of the same school your son goes to. I teach her about understanding and respect for other human beings be they gay, female, black, Muslim, non Catholic or whatever. Can you say the same about what you teach your son, who goes to the non denominational side of the same school ?
You seem to take a great deal of satisfaction and an abnormal amount of time in slating the Catholic church/religion. Cherry picking the negative aspects that suit your bigoted agenda but, curiously, never taking any opportunity to highlight the many positive works that the Catholic church engages in not only in this country, but worldwide.
As a practicing Catholic, I am not saying that every aspect of the Catholic church teaching is perfect.
You, as a bigot, can pick whatever aspect suits your warped agenda against Catholics and their faith, but, sadly can never find anything positive to say about any aspect of the religion.
I have no doubt that you will be passing on your narrow minded bigoted garbage to your son, who will then pass it on to his family and so on.
Depressing.

Just the sort of snobbish nonsense I would expect John. So you can question my parenting skills just because I have a dislike of your Chuurch? A lot of emotive language there, yet no mention of your hatred of the working classes or anyonne who has a smaller house than you! Your Religion doesn't really have a good record when it comes to Children, so the less said about parenting the better, I would have thought.

[SidBurns]

Wow, that is a leap adding two and two regarding domestic abuse and bigotry, I don't think the two things can be tied together. I would imagine most bigots would marry or live with someone of the same faith. So it would make more sense if they beat up their neighbours wife after a game.

The schools argument is too simplistic as well, since RC schools admit children of all faiths and there is no such thing as Protestant schools.

Anti-Catholic bigotry is part of the establishment in this country and has been since the Reformation. Anti-Catholic feeling also has roots among the working classes since many Irish workers came and were paid less by the bosses so creating resentment among Scots Protestants - classic devide and rule politics by the Capitalist Ruling classes. Add to that mix alcohol and then you have all the right ingredients for a stabbing.

And it is not just Glasgow, although it is an easy target. Alcohol fueled violence is rife through out this country, but I don't hear any on here calling for an alcohol ban.

As much as I would love to see a points deduction against the OF how exactly could it be worked? I hear huns belting out the billy boys again, which is one of the banned songs but not a squeak from the SPL or SFA.

We used to sing all the rebel songs and it has stopped at ER, how did that happen? If it can be done at ER it can be done else where surely.

What alot of cock and balls this comment is!

I am a protestant but went to a catholic primary school as it was the closest to my parents house at the time. I then went to a so-called protestant High School (Liberton) which had blacks, whites, muslims, catholics etc there so your comment is way off the mark my friend.

Although I was christened in a Church of Scotland and am a protestant as such I do not believe in religion whatsoever and to be honest couldn't give a crud about it!

Bigotry will NEVER be kicked out of football or Scotland full stop as for every Father/Mother that believes in it, there will be a child that'll get the same rubbish/beliefs drumed into them unfortunately.

From my experience Catholics are worse when it comes to religion/bigotry but thats just from my own family experience. My Uncle (who was born & bred in East Calder) is a Celtic fan, when it came to the Census he said he considered himself to be "Irish". For me thats just wrong!

[Bishop Hibee]

My, what a constructive argument for keeping faith schools.

Merely stating my personal trade off position. We RC's can be very tolerant you know :wink:

I could list plenty reasons to keep faith schools but I'm sure you wouldn't agree with them so I'm not going to waste my time.

[easty]

My Uncle (who was born & bred in East Calder) is a Celtic fan, when it came to the Census he said he considered himself to be "Irish". For me thats just wrong!

:confused: That's ridiculous.

[hibsbollah]

We used to sing all the rebel songs and it has stopped at ER, how did that happen? If it can be done at ER it can be done else where surely.

You can thank Tom Hart for that. Decided early on in the 70s that we would promote an irish history but a scottish present and future. It took a while but we stopped having anything like the celtc songbook by the mid 80s IMO, possibly earlier.

[Part/Time Supporter]

What alot of cock and balls this comment is!

I am a protestant but went to a catholic primary school as it was the closest to my parents house at the time. I then went to a so-called protestant High School (Liberton) which had blacks, whites, muslims, catholics etc there so your comment is way off the mark my friend.

Although I was christened in a Church of Scotland and am a protestant as such I do not believe in religion whatsoever and to be honest couldn't give a crud about it!

Bigotry will NEVER be kicked out of football or Scotland full stop as for every Father/Mother that believes in it, there will be a child that'll get the same rubbish/beliefs drumed into them unfortunately.

From my experience Catholics are worse when it comes to religion/bigotry but thats just from my own family experience. My Uncle (who was born & bred in East Calder) is a Celtic fan, when it came to the Census he said he considered himself to be "Irish". For me thats just wrong!

The Celtic View encouraged all Celtc fans, if they could find any Irish relative in their family tree, to tick the Irish box in the census.

[JimBHibees]

The Celtic View encouraged all Celtc fans, if they could find any Irish relative in their family tree, to tick the Irish box in the census.

Is that right? Dear oh dear, how warped is that. Pathetic.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The Celtic View encouraged all Celtc fans, if they could find any Irish relative in their family tree, to tick the Irish box in the census.


Is that right? Dear oh dear, how warped is that. Pathetic.

Just little people, incapable of making it in society, creating their own little world. They create a big enough sect, they can get jobs speaking up for it.

You see the same thing from the Italians, and Poles, er....

[HNA11]

Guys and Girls

I'm moving this thread to to the Holy Ground as we seem to have moved away from football content and onto a religous/political debate.

Any questions as to why then give me or another admin a PM.

Cheers.

[easty]

The Celtic View encouraged all Celtc fans, if they could find any Irish relative in their family tree, to tick the Irish box in the census.

Cant we just give them what they really want and let them join the Irish league?

No, wait they want to be an Irish football team, whose home ground is in Scotland but that play in the English league

...surely Wales is feeling left out.:greengrin

[Corstorphine Hibby]

Just the sort of snobbish nonsense I would expect John. So you can question my parenting skills just because I have a dislike of your Chuurch? A lot of emotive language there, yet no mention of your hatred of the working classes or anyonne who has a smaller house than you! Your Religion doesn't really have a good record when it comes to Children, so the less said about parenting the better, I would have thought.




Duncan, I have many faults, but, as a parent I try my best not to teach and indoctrine those faults in my daughter. As I said, I try and teach my child to respect other people whatever their colour or religion. By doing this, I hope she will turn out to be a better person than me. That for me is one of the fundamental responsibilities of being a parent, and for me personally my religion helps me address this.

If you can say the same then great, but if not then unfortunately there is not much hope in the long term battle against bigotry.

For what it's worth I don't hate anything or anyone Duncan. Hate is a strong word. I certainly have a low tolerance threshold for many aspects of life, but in general I do my utmost not to influence my child with the same negativities I suffer from in the hope she turns out to be a better person than me.

[Dashing Bob S]

Calm down chaps, it's bad enough with weedgies, but if the Corstorphine Conservative Party is now being torn apart by sectarianism, then our society truly is doomed!

[JimBHibees]

Calm down chaps, it's bad enough with weedgies, but if the Corstorphine Conservative Party is now being torn apart by sectarianism, then our society truly is doomed!

:faf::faf: