Budget

[Brando7]

What everyones thought on todays events?

Personally 1p reduced on fuel duty hardly anything to get excited about imo will probably get added back on by end of the week

[ancient hibee]

fuel changes much more widespread than a penny-interesting to see what happens-reduction in income tax welcome-big winners are charities.

[steakbake]

Given the circumstances, I think he has done well.

I wasn't totally sure about the exercise of cutting the deficit as drastically as he had suggested. From what I was reading in the various commentaries today, I think he's starting to win the argument and he'll be proven right in the end.

I have to say that I think Balls is increasingly looking clueless and I feel sorry for Miliband in some ways because he wasn't his choice.

[Mibbes Aye]

What everyones thought on todays events?

Personally 1p reduced on fuel duty hardly anything to get excited about imo will probably get added back on by end of the week

He added 3p onto the price of fuel with his VAT rise in January so it's not really much benefit is it?

And he's funding this 1p off through a tax on the oil companies. They're not going to want to lose money so they'll just add it back on (and possibly more) at the petrol pumps anyway!

This Budget, like the one after the election needs to be viewed alongside the spending cuts.

What the country needs is growth and jobs, and as Osborne revealed today, he's got us going in the wrong direction on both.

[Beefster]

He did fine, given the circumstances.

The government are getting an incredibly easy ride at the moment though. The quality of the opposition is embarrassing.

[Mibbes Aye]

He did fine, given the circumstances.

The government are getting an incredibly easy ride at the moment though. The quality of the opposition is embarrassing.

Unemployment rising.

Growth decreasing.

National debt rising.

The worst deficit in February since records began.

It's not working, is it?

[steakbake]

Unemployment rising.

Growth decreasing.

National debt rising.

The worst deficit in February since records began.

It's not working, is it?

An honest question here - what would Balls do? Apart from bland statements that he'd increase jobs and increase growth. What would he actually do? As much as I don't like the Tories, there is literally nobody - noone - in the labour front bench that offers me any idea that they know what to do.

Osbourne's approach has been commended by the OECD. It's going to be painful but I genuinely believe that come the 2014 budget, things will be very much different.

[Beefster]

Unemployment rising.

Growth decreasing.

National debt rising.

The worst deficit in February since records began.

It's not working, is it?

As I said, the level of opposition isn't great. Labour can't offer an alternative and they and their supporters oppose by instinct. I will judge them by the end of the parliament (as will most of the electorate). Unless you think anyone would have been able to fix the complete devastation that they inherited within 10 months?

Of course, none of this would be happening under Labour. They'd have cut the deficit, lowered unemployment and all without taxing us back into the middle ages or cutting public services.

[Mibbes Aye]

An honest question here - what would Balls do? Apart from bland statements that he'd increase jobs and increase growth. What would he actually do? As much as I don't like the Tories, there is literally nobody - noone - in the labour front bench that offers me any idea that they know what to do.

Osbourne's approach has been commended by the OECD. It's going to be painful but I genuinely believe that come the 2014 budget, things will be very much different.

Is that the same OECD that predicted inflation would fall through 2010? Or the same OECD that got the impact of the global recession completely wrong? Or is it a different OECD? :greengrin

They get some things right but they certainly get it wrong too.

I agree, things will be very different by 2014.

I'm torn though. Originally I thought we would see the complete evisceration of our public services and our communities so that Osborne could throw tax breaks at people as a pre-election sweetener.

I'm wavering now, because he's making such a shambles of things, the growth may not be there to allow the tax breaks.....

[Mibbes Aye]

As I said, the level of opposition isn't great. Labour can't offer an alternative and they and their supporters oppose by instinct. I will judge them by the end of the parliament (as will most of the electorate). Unless you think anyone would have been able to fix the complete devastation that they inherited within 10 months?

Of course, none of this would be happening under Labour. They'd have cut the deficit, lowered unemployment and all without taxing us back into the middle ages or cutting public services.

That's the thing though, nobody believes that we were in a state of complete devastation last May. We had tough choices to make, dealing with the fallout of a global recession, but we weren't an Iceland or a Greece.

But if we were in a state of complete devastation like you claim, then where are we now, thanks to Osborne, with growth falling, unemployment going through the roof and debt rising?

Question is, will the Tories keep blaming Labour, rather than manning up, growing a set and taking ownership of their two Budgets and a Spending Review?

[RyeSloan]

Unemployment rising.

Growth decreasing.

National debt rising

The worst deficit in February since records began.

It's not working, is it?

Ahh didn't take you too long Mibbes to come along with the rhetoric and nothing concrete...a bit like the Labour front bench yesterday.

Lets take your points one by one:

Growth decreasing - Pretty certain that growth would slow from the immediate post slump figures...I'm sure you understand the temporary effects of inventory re-building etc.

National Debt rising - Since Labour are still whimpering about too much too fast then it's pretty certian debt would be rising even faster under Labour.

Worst deficit in February - You need to be careful where you aim as lets be honest Labour has the rather ignominious record of requiring to borrowing in January 2010. There was also the Jan 2011 surplus which was the largest since 2008 and the borrowing requirement is on track to undershoot marginally in total ...should Osbourne get credit for that or are you only going to pick up on one figure?

It's not working is it? - Is this really a question? If it's a statement I would dearly love to know what's required to make it work...not sure I have seen Balls or Milliband actually put forward proposals to make it work that go beyond more public borrowing.

[RyeSloan]

That's the thing though, nobody believes that we were in a state of complete devastation last May. We had tough choices to make, dealing with the fallout of a global recession, but we weren't an Iceland or a Greece.

But if we were in a state of complete devastation like you claim, then where are we now, thanks to Osborne, with growth falling, unemployment going through the roof and debt rising?

Question is, will the Tories keep blaming Labour, rather than manning up, growing a set and taking ownership of their two Budgets and a Spending Review?

The unemployment rate in May 2010 was 7.7%...in Jan it was 8%. The ONS state that these rates have a 0.3 +/- error....hardly going through the roof yet.

Still it was 5.3% in May 2008 but yet 7.7% by May 2010...that might be considered going through the roof....not even you can blame Osbourne for that and for the record (in case it had slipped your mind) it happened under Labour.

[bighairyfaeleith]

The unemployment rate in May 2010 was 7.7%...in Jan it was 8%. The ONS state that these rates have a 0.3 +/- error....hardly going through the roof yet.

Still it was 5.3% in May 2008 but yet 7.7% by May 2010...that might be considered going through the roof....not even you can blame Osbourne for that and for the record (in case it had slipped your mind) it happened under Labour.

aah so because labour where ****, it's ok for the tories to be **** as well :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Ahh didn't take you too long Mibbes to come along with the rhetoric and nothing concrete...a bit like the Labour front bench yesterday.

Lets take your points one by one:

Growth decreasing - Pretty certain that growth would slow from the immediate post slump figures...I'm sure you understand the temporary effects of inventory re-building etc.

National Debt rising - Since Labour are still whimpering about too much too fast then it's pretty certian debt would be rising even faster under Labour.

Worst deficit in February - You need to be careful where you aim as lets be honest Labour has the rather ignominious record of requiring to borrowing in January 2010. There was also the Jan 2011 surplus which was the largest since 2008 and the borrowing requirement is on track to undershoot marginally in total ...should Osbourne get credit for that or are you only going to pick up on one figure?

It's not working is it? - Is this really a question? If it's a statement I would dearly love to know what's required to make it work...not sure I have seen Balls or Milliband actually put forward proposals to make it work that go beyond more public borrowing.

Good. So you agree that after nearly a year of Osborne's 'tough medicine', we have:

Falling growth (and every time he talks about it he says it's going to fall further still)

Rising unemployment - a million young people out of work and no sign of where jobs are going to come from

Debt rising - I thought all these cuts were to reduce debt?

The highest deficit in February since records began - you talk about an undershoot but given Osborne's taking eighteen billion out of welfare alone I would have thought we were entitled to see some effect on the deficit!

Inflation rising inexorably - despite the smoke and mirrors of changing from one measurement to a lower one.

Instead of sniping about a Labour government that's part of history, why don't you defend what Osborne is doing here and now? He's the one making the decisions, not Ed Balls, nor Alistair Darling or Gordon Brown.

Falling growth, rising unemployment, rising debt, rising inflation.

That's not rhetoric. That's the fact of what me and you and 60 million other people in this country are facing.

When people can't get jobs, and those in jobs are seeing their spending power dropping because of inflation, where's the growth going to come from? Where's the recovery?

[Leicester Fan]

Must of the cuts don't go through until April so it's hard to see how they can be blamed for the lower than expected growth.

[Mibbes Aye]

Must of the cuts don't go through until April so it's hard to see how they can be blamed for the lower than expected growth.

Do you think that the spending cuts are the only contributor, negative or positive, to growth?

Maybe you do. In which case, did you miss the billions of cuts they announced when they first took office - scrapping the programme to build new schools, as just one example (incidentally a very good example of how the private sector benefits from the public sector)?

Spending power is down for individuals and firms, as a consequence of Osborne's ideological crusade. That's why growth is going the wrong way.

It simply isn't working.

[RyeSloan]

Good. So you agree that after nearly a year of Osborne's 'tough medicine', we have:

Falling growth (and every time he talks about it he says it's going to fall further still)

Rising unemployment - a million young people out of work and no sign of where jobs are going to come from

Debt rising - I thought all these cuts were to reduce debt?

The highest deficit in February since records began - you talk about an undershoot but given Osborne's taking eighteen billion out of welfare alone I would have thought we were entitled to see some effect on the deficit!

Inflation rising inexorably - despite the smoke and mirrors of changing from one measurement to a lower one.

Instead of sniping about a Labour government that's part of history, why don't you defend what Osborne is doing here and now? He's the one making the decisions, not Ed Balls, nor Alistair Darling or Gordon Brown.

Falling growth, rising unemployment, rising debt, rising inflation.

That's not rhetoric. That's the fact of what me and you and 60 million other people in this country are facing.

When people can't get jobs, and those in jobs are seeing their spending power dropping because of inflation, where's the growth going to come from? Where's the recovery?

Oh c'mon we have been here before:

You simply can't airbrush the ******ing massive mess left behind and then stamp your feet and say where is the growth and recovery!!

You simply can't say unemployment is going through the roof and point fingers at Osborne when he has been in office when there has been a 0.3% rise and forget about the 2.5% rise that came before.

You can't simply ignore that the previous administration overborrowed, over spent and left behind a massive budgetary hole and then demand that it's all fixed within a year.

That's school boy stuff it really is. The current situation and the how it is being treated HAS to be taken in context of the prevailing fiscal situation any commentary that doesn't is merely posturing.

A few points:

Inflation is the BoE's remit is it not? I reckon if interest rates were in Osbourne's control I reckon he would have put them up already...of course there would have been even more protests and the pain would have been real but there is little doubt that inflation is much bigger danger than another quarter or two of weak or zero growth.

I repeat Labour's assertion that everything is too far too fast....just how would spending more and increasing the deficit more do anything for the long term prospects of the economy and growth?

A couple of examples where the government have at least made some efforts would be:

Lower Corporation taxes would seem the most obvious lever that Osbourne can use to encourage private sector growth..I see that he has used this quite aggressively and that should be applauded.

There is also the Hutton pension reforms that have been accepted...a good start but they didn't go far enough the £15bn (conservative estimate!) of taxpayers money used every year to fund these over generous unfunded payouts should and could be saved and used elsewhere.


We can see what Osbourne has done..to me it looks like a reasonable effort in the face of a very difficult set of circumstances...I repeat WHAT IS LABOUR'S SOLUTION because all I hear is don't blame us and too far too fast, none of which are credulous positions to hold.

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh c'mon we have been here before:

You simply can't airbrush the ******ing massive mess left behind and then stamp your feet and say where is the growth and recovery!!

You simply can't say unemployment is going through the roof and point fingers at Osborne when he has been in office when there has been a 0.3% rise and forget about the 2.5% rise that came before.

You can't simply ignore that the previous administration overborrowed, over spent and left behind a massive budgetary hole and then demand that it's all fixed within a year.

That's school boy stuff it really is. The current situation and the how it is being treated HAS to be taken in context of the prevailing fiscal situation any commentary that doesn't is merely posturing.

A few points:

Inflation is the BoE's remit is it not? I reckon if interest rates were in Osbourne's control I reckon he would have put them up already...of course there would have been even more protests and the pain would have been real but there is little doubt that inflation is much bigger danger than another quarter or two of weak or zero growth.

I repeat Labour's assertion that everything is too far too fast....just how would spending more and increasing the deficit more do anything for the long term prospects of the economy and growth?

A couple of examples where the government have at least made some efforts would be:

Lower Corporation taxes would seem the most obvious lever that Osbourne can use to encourage private sector growth..I see that he has used this quite aggressively and that should be applauded.

There is also the Hutton pension reforms that have been accepted...a good start but they didn't go far enough the £15bn (conservative estimate!) of taxpayers money used every year to fund these over generous unfunded payouts should and could be saved and used elsewhere.


We can see what Osbourne has done..to me it looks like a reasonable effort in the face of a very difficult set of circumstances...I repeat WHAT IS LABOUR'S SOLUTION because all I hear is don't blame us and too far too fast, none of which are credulous positions to hold.

I think we're all finding out exactly why Labour is saying the cuts are too deep and too fast - all the indicators are showing the effects of Osborne's experiment with Britain, all the indicators are going the wrong way.

You don't get growth by savaging the private sector's biggest indvidual customer, do you?

You don't get growth by putting hundreds of thousands out of work, do you?

You don't get growth by slashing people's incomes do you?

Oh, and I wondered when someone would mention corporation tax.

All that's done is increase the amount of profit shareholders are allowed to take. There's absolutely no guarantee that money will be reinvested in jobs, especially when businesses are actively laying off workers and treading with the utmost caution.

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh c'mon we have been here before:



Lower Corporation taxes would seem the most obvious lever that Osbourne can use to encourage private sector growth..I see that he has used this quite aggressively and that should be applauded.

.

This is one which always has me rolling my eyes. The majority of businesses in the UK are not incorporated; they pay income tax, not Corporation Tax. The CT reductions do nothing to help them.

[Beefster]

I think we're all finding out exactly why Labour is saying the cuts are too deep and too fast - all the indicators are showing the effects of Osborne's experiment with Britain, all the indicators are going the wrong way.

You don't get growth by savaging the private sector's biggest indvidual customer, do you?

You don't get growth by putting hundreds of thousands out of work, do you?

You don't get growth by slashing people's incomes do you?

Oh, and I wondered when someone would mention corporation tax.

All that's done is increase the amount of profit shareholders are allowed to take. There's absolutely no guarantee that money will be reinvested in jobs, especially when businesses are actively laying off workers and treading with the utmost caution.

So that I can understand your argument better, can you give me practical examples of when and how the government has, to date, cut hundreds of thousands of jobs, slashed incomes or devastated public spending?

Seeing as you're talking about the current situation, it would help if you could give example of action taken so far and not things that are planned for some point in the next 4 years.

[Brando7]

What everyones thought on todays events?

Personally 1p reduced on fuel duty hardly anything to get excited about imo will probably get added back on by end of the week

Took earlier than I thought

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/3489161/Petrol-stations-fail-to-Do-Their-Duty.html

[Mibbes Aye]

So that I can understand your argument better, can you give me practical examples of when and how the government has, to date, cut hundreds of thousands of jobs, slashed incomes or devastated public spending?

Seeing as you're talking about the current situation, it would help if you could give example of action taken so far and not things that are planned for some point in the next 4 years.

Oh please Beefster, you're better than that.

If I asked you how much you got paid a year would you base it on how much you had been paid until now - for January, February and March?

£6bn cut within the first few weeks. £81bn more cuts on the way.

Half a million job losses in the public sector alone to come, says Osborne. The likes of the CIPD and the OBR have put it hundreds of thousands higher.

But you asked about the here and now, didn't you?

How about unemployment today at it's highest since 1994.

Or household income falling, the effects of the cuts, the VAT rise and inflation capping the greatest decline since the early 1980s (now what was going on then again?)

Do you understand my argument better now? It's not working...........

[Beefster]

Oh please Beefster, you're better than that.

If I asked you how much you got paid a year would you base it on how much you had been paid until now - for January, February and March?

£6bn cut within the first few weeks. £81bn more cuts on the way.

Half a million job losses in the public sector alone to come, says Osborne. The likes of the CIPD and the OBR have put it hundreds of thousands higher.

But you asked about the here and now, didn't you?

How about unemployment today at it's highest since 1994.

Or household income falling, the effects of the cuts, the VAT rise and inflation capping the greatest decline since the early 1980s (now what was going on then again?)

Do you understand my argument better now? It's not working...........

So you can't? Fair enough.

[Mibbes Aye]

So you can't? Fair enough.

:faf:

Change in tactics Beefster?

Are you dropping the "It's all Labour's fault", which doesn't convince anyone and replacing it with "None of this is really happening,honest!"?

That won't convince anyone either. People aren't stupid.

They can see unemployment going up. They can see their wage buying less and less. And they can see their local services being cut.

Right now, there are a million young people out of work. It's been steadily rising and what's the Government done? They scrapped the Future Jobs Fund.

One of many things they've done to make things worse, but only a taste of what's to come once we get into the new financial year and get the full taste of their 'medicine'.

It's not working Beefster. Other people can see it, why can't you?

[Beefster]

:faf:

Change in tactics Beefster?

Are you dropping the "It's all Labour's fault", which doesn't convince anyone and replacing it with "None of this is really happening,honest!"?

That won't convince anyone either. People aren't stupid.

They can see unemployment going up. They can see their wage buying less and less. And they can see their local services being cut.

Right now, there are a million young people out of work. It's been steadily rising and what's the Government done? They scrapped the Future Jobs Fund.

One of many things they've done to make things worse, but only a taste of what's to come once we get into the new financial year and get the full taste of their 'medicine'.

It's not working Beefster. Other people can see it, why can't you?

Most folk realise that we'd be suffering the same problems under a Labour government and that you can't condemn a new government after 10 months when the previous lot were in power for 13 years. Labour's problem is that, if the coalition plan works before the next election, they're going to look completely clueless after having spent 5 years opposing every single policy. Even Labour's own 'big beasts' are growing restless about the lack of alternatives being offered.

The rest we've debated time and time again so I won't resort to repeating the current line of whatever party I'm defending.

[Greentinted]

Ten-bob on a pack of fags...a smugglers charter. Just sayin likes.

[Woody1985]

Has anyone considered that there were perhaps too many people working in the public sector because labour artificially inflated the numbers and packaged it as growth.

Their tactic for lowering employment was to hire hundreds of thousands into the public sector.

[Mibbes Aye]

Has anyone considered that there were perhaps too many people working in the public sector because labour artificially inflated the numbers and packaged it as growth.

Their tactic for lowering employment was to hire hundreds of thousands into the public sector.

Not really Woody. IIRC the growth in private sector jobs up until the credit crunch was actually higher than that in public sector jobs, and that's bearing in mind that Labour threw money at recruiting nurses, teachers, police and doctors.

Also, the proportion of public sector jobs to all jobs remained the same at about 1 in 5. It was around 1 in 4 when John Major won the '92 election and his time in office probably marked a rebalancing in the employment market between public and private that Labour didn't really change.

[Mibbes Aye]

Most folk realise that we'd be suffering the same problems under a Labour government and that you can't condemn a new government after 10 months when the previous lot were in power for 13 years. Labour's problem is that, if the coalition plan works before the next election, they're going to look completely clueless after having spent 5 years opposing every single policy. Even Labour's own 'big beasts' are growing restless about the lack of alternatives being offered.

The rest we've debated time and time again so I won't resort to repeating the current line of whatever party I'm defending.

I agree. Regardles of who won (or who struck a deal) last May, we would still be looking at the fallout from what commonly seems to be seen as the worst global recession since the 1920s.

That's being used as a convenient cover for Osborne and Cameron to unleash their ideological experiment on Britain though.

While there may be a need for cuts, there's no absolute need for them to be so deep and so fast. No need to inflict the misery that they will bring to millions of families.

And there's no need for the backdoor privatisation of the NHS and the school system that Lansley and Gove have tried to sneak through, without a mandate.

It's only fortunate that their cackhandedness has been so pronounced that their schemes have fallen apart and people have been able to clock what they're doing and challenge it.

I don't understand why you say one can't criticise this Government ten months in. Do they deserve some free pass? If you think my criticism is unfair, you're welcome to point out why (but merely having a go at Gordon Brown doesn't count as a rebuttal).

Admittedly a free pass would save time as the list of malevolent and/or shambolic policy positions they've taken, all in the space of less than a year, is a long, long, long one :greengrin