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Auckland Hibs
22-03-2011, 11:42 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing

I wonder if we would ever consider removing some of the seats at ER to bring back a terraced area? I much prefer standing at games, however it would be good if fans had a choice.

Thoughts?

greenlex
23-03-2011, 08:27 AM
I suspect the East is too steep to do it there. Maybe the lower areas of the other stands but can't see it. Crowd control and knowing who bought a ticket for a particular seat will see it all seated fir a considerable time yet.

miniboco
23-03-2011, 09:12 AM
From the Guardian this morning:

The sports minister, Hugh Robertson, has said the government will consider the possibility of reintroducing standing areas at top-level football matches, 21 years after Lord Justice Taylor recommended terracing be outlawed.

At the first ever meeting to discuss the issue with the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), football authorities, police and the Football Licensing Authority, which took place on Monday, Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing. In particular, he said he wanted to see whether modern terracing would be safe, technically able to be built into stadiums and capable of being policed, and whether there is demand from substantial numbers to stand.

But anxious not to raise immediate expectations, Robertson told the meeting frankly that because the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, in which 96 Liverpool supporters died, led to Taylor's recommendation that standing be outlawed, the stakes are extremely high to recommend a change. If he were to do so, and there was then a major accident or incident of disorder on a terrace, Robertson said: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter."

The meeting was called by the Liberal Democrat sports spokesman, Don Foster, who has tabled a private member's bill calling for clubs to be permitted safe standing areas. "I am very pleased we brought all parties together for the first time to discuss the issue," he said. "Real fans are paying high ticket prices and losing out, and I am confident safe standing can be introduced which meets all the minister's concerns. We will be gathering the required evidence, and fans must now make their voices heard."

The FSF will launch an online petition calling for the introduction of safe standing areas at stadiums in England's top two divisions, where all-seating has been compulsory since 1994, as recommended by Taylor four years earlier.

All the authorities represented at the meeting stated their opposition to any reintroduction of standing areas, although they no longer state that this is predominantly an issue of fan safety, rather of crowd control. The Premier League, Football League and Football Association argued that all-seat stadiums had been crucial in improving the game's fortunes and image since Hillsborough, and there is no major demand for standing.

The FSF is calling for defined areas of grounds to be made available for safe standing areas, similar to those in Germany where closely spaced barriers make a crush close to impossible. The FSF points to a survey it conducted in which 90% of respondents said fans should have the choice of sitting or standing. The organisation hopes thousands will sign the online petition.

Robertson stressed he is wary of considering change, but would look at all evidence presented, and would want a consensus, including the police in particular, that standing would be safe.

Andy Holt, assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police, representing the Association of Chief Police Officers at the meeting, said it is up to the FSF to demonstrate that standing areas could be policed effectively and would not risk increasing disorder at matches.

Malcolm Clarke, the FSF chairman, argued that such standing areas would enable fans to enjoy matches in a more traditional atmosphere. Clarke also pointed out that many supporters regularly stand at top-flight football in the all-seat stands, a practice the Football Licensing Authority considers a safety risk.

"Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating," Clarke said. "We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced."

I know this is for down south but it is definitely something I'd love to see up here - what's everyone's opinion?

Posh Swanny
23-03-2011, 09:25 AM
Re the crowd control issue - some of the "safe standing" areas in Europe work effectively the same way as seating - you buy a ticket for a particular position on the "terrace". Its pretty much a seating area with the seats folded up (or removed altogether) and barriers in front - and therefore surely safer than the current situation in the UK where thousands of fans stand in front of their seats without a barrier to stop them falling forward.

Galatasary (http://www.galatasaray.org/images/galeri/1/1581/B_87b5936fdda71a29ad86433b0f87060e.jpg)

Somewhere else! (http://www.fsf.org.uk/media/uploaded/safe%20standing.jpg)

Steve-O
23-03-2011, 09:29 AM
We should be given CHOICE, not dictated to by the nanny state as with almost everything else these days...:agree:

The polis in Scotland will never go for it because they are lazy bassas, but I can't see why they seem to have the FINAL say in things like this? Surely they should just do whatever job is asked of them?

marinello59
23-03-2011, 09:37 AM
Safe standing areas are nothing like the old style terracing yet the politicians in general fail to acknowledge that every time the issue is raised. My heart sinks every time I hear an MP or an MSP mention anything to do with football.
As Greenlex says the East is probably unsuitable but surely a small section of the lower West could be adapted. (The Famous Five looks likely to become the dedicated Family Stand again so I wouldn't expect anything to be done there.)
As for police objections, if it is proven to be OK on health and safety grounds then what valid reason could they have to object?

Steve-O
23-03-2011, 09:40 AM
Safe standing areas are nothing like the old style terracing yet the politicians in general fail to acknowledge that every time the issue is raised. My heart sinks every time I hear an MP or an MSP mention anything to do with football.
As Greenlex says the East is probably unsuitable but surely a small section of the lower West could be adapted. (The Famous Five looks likely to become the dedicated Family Stand again so I wouldn't expect anything to be done there.)
As for police objections, if it is proven to be OK on health and safety grounds then what valid reason could they have to object?

See my post above - laziness. The Police in Edinburgh/Scotland seem to be the laziest in the world and are basically against anyone enjoying themselves if it means a bit of extra work for them, despite the fact they usually find themselves standing in a group of about 15 doing sweet FA for the entire 90 minutes...

Wakeyhibee
23-03-2011, 10:09 AM
"The Premier League, Football League and Football Association argued that all-seat stadiums had been crucial in improving the game's fortunes and image since Hillsborough, and there is no major demand for standing."


I love these people's assumptions that is there is no demand, there is no choice and hasn't been for years and fans are fed up with being told 'no going back'.

You can't have it = no damand.....tossers

Posh Swanny
23-03-2011, 10:44 AM
"The Premier League, Football League and Football Association argued that all-seat stadiums had been crucial in improving the game's fortunes and image since Hillsborough, and there is no major demand for standing."


I love these people's assumptions that is there is no demand, there is no choice and hasn't been for years and fans are fed up with being told 'no going back'.

You can't have it = no damand.....tossers

No demand = everyone sits for 90 minutes every week in The Kop and Stretford End?

Vini1875
23-03-2011, 11:11 AM
From the point of view of the authorities, why would they go back to standing areas? I can think of only one reason, it might generate more money if they can squeeze more fans into an area. For that to be the case grounds would have to be at capacity and with more fans outside waiting to get in. That is not the case anywhere in the UK.

Why would anyone in authority trust football fans? They simply have no or little respect for fans.

I think the fans would have organise some sort of court case to force the authorities to allow individual clubs the right to have standing areas. I can't see that happening and I don't think there is that big a demand for it. I'm in the East Stand, I still stand at games at ER anyway and have done since the Taylor Report.

No one in power wants the terracings back, it is only misty eyed football fans who do.

superfurryhibby
23-03-2011, 01:31 PM
From the point of view of the authorities, why would they go back to standing areas? I can think of only one reason, it might generate more money if they can squeeze more fans into an area. For that to be the case grounds would have to be at capacity and with more fans outside waiting to get in. That is not the case anywhere in the UK.

Why would anyone in authority trust football fans? They simply have no or little respect for fans.

I think the fans would have organise some sort of court case to force the authorities to allow individual clubs the right to have standing areas. I can't see that happening and I don't think there is that big a demand for it. I'm in the East Stand, I still stand at games at ER anyway and have done since the Taylor Report.
]No one in power wants the terracings back, it is only misty eyed football fans who do.[/B]

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I am often am, but isn't standing only banned at SPL grounds and in the top two tiers in England? If so then I assume that there is plenty of demand for standing and it is happening.

As you say yourself, there is a whole lot of standing going on at ER every fortnight and I think that shows that there are plenty who want it.

hibsbollah
23-03-2011, 01:48 PM
You would need a maverick politician to want to see this project happen.

Kate Hoey tried it under Labour but the powers that be shut her up. The Hillsboro Families Group,(who were assumedly speaking on behalf of their dead relatives)objected, saying they were 'appalled'. The big clubs didnt want it and objected.

Bringing back some form of terraces along the German model makes absolute sense and would be welcomed by most fans. Which is why it wont happen.

DC_Hibs
23-03-2011, 01:49 PM
I can think of only one reason, it might generate more money if they can squeeze more fans into an area. For that to be the case grounds would have to be at capacity and with more fans outside waiting to get in.


Spot on and that's the reason that the clubs themselves would probably not want this to go ahead.

Why would Rodders agree to pay out for a relatively new stand (or two) being partly or fully converted to a standing area - even one with convertible standing/seating option?

I reckon for every extra penny gained from people attracted back by cheaper tickets or by standing sections it would be cancelled out by the reduction in revenue from someone moving from a seat to a cheaper standing ticket.

Self preservation is the name of the game in Scottish football these days while the clubs are all struggling financially and thats the reason why it will be a 10 team SPL soon - no fans want it but the clubs don't give an F as they want to maintain their slice of the (TV) pie.

I think fans should be given the choice as well but unfortunately I can't see this happening.

I fail to realise why anyone except the clubs can have any objection to this.
Fans - you want to carry on sitting then do so - dont enforce your choice on others.
Safety authorities - there are no safety issues if done properly like other countries
League/SFA - they carry on using their complimentary centre stand tickets and leave match day experience improvements to pay at the gate real fans
Politicians - a big enough campaign and they will be swayed by the chance of an extra vote or two

That's settled that one then.
Cheers

Moulin Yarns
23-03-2011, 01:51 PM
From the Guardian this morning:

The sports minister, Hugh Robertson, has said the government will consider the possibility of reintroducing standing areas at top-level football matches, 21 years after Lord Justice Taylor recommended terracing be outlawed.

At the first ever meeting to discuss the issue with the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), football authorities, police and the Football Licensing Authority, which took place on Monday, Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing. In particular, he said he wanted to see whether modern terracing would be safe, technically able to be built into stadiums and capable of being policed, and whether there is demand from substantial numbers to stand.

Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating," Clarke said. "We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced."


:hijack:

Notice the bits in bold, discussions including the fans, now let me think, why did the SPL not think of that when 6 of them decided that a 10 team league was the way forward???

mickki40
23-03-2011, 02:02 PM
"In particular, he said he wanted to see whether modern terracing would be safe, technically able to be built into stadiums and capable of being policed, and whether there is demand from substantial numbers to stand.

This guy has done no homework whatsoever Safe standing is old news in europe. Standing at Carlisle pre season was safe as we didn't exceed the stadium numbers. And it is possible to have a seat with a safety rail in front like they do at Gamla Ullevi in Gothenburg. This is by no means a revolution, however it is putting it on the agenda more since the introduction of the private members bill in Parliament. It will happen eventually because we know as supporters that the need is there. It's hard to be enthusiastic for your team whilst sitting down. I would like it just to laugh at the Dundee United stewards.

ScottB
23-03-2011, 02:06 PM
This will never, ever happen. The clubs down south have already said they are opposed.

Clubs aren't going to tear up expensively built stands to make way for terraces that they will presumably have to charge less for. Maybe some clubs struggling to get a crowd might, but I can't think there's some huge market that are refusing to go to games till terraces return.

It's a pipe dream.

Posh Swanny
23-03-2011, 03:26 PM
For those who keep using the word "terrace".

Have you looked at pictures online of "safe standing" areas? They are NOT terraces. They are effectively seating areas (much like the current East), only every seat has a barrier in front of it to prevent you falling forward when standing.G alatasaray is the best example.

Although this scenario wouldn't raise revenues as capacities would likely be just the same as when all-seated as the police would still like to know who was stood where (although you could get more people in per row if the rozzers gave it the ok), it would allow fans to stand in just the same way many do now, but LEGALLY. Thus removing the threat of fines and ground restrictions being imposed by authorities.

Wolves, for example, are on the brink of having their capacity restricted because of fans standing during games. They have just announced re-development of the stadium and this would be a perfect opportunity to incorporate safe standing.

Unfortunately, the waters are constantly muddied (often deliberately) by use of the word "terrace" and as such, we will more than likely be stuck with the more dangerous scenario we have now where thousands of people stand in seated areas with no barriers.

green&left
23-03-2011, 04:41 PM
Same typical responses i've read all before.

Amazes me how thick some people can be when this issue is brought up. "Do you think clubs are gonna tear down new stands after spending millions on them yadda yadda yadda". Those that come out with this pesh, do you honestly think the people calling for some safe standing areas want to rip down the Emirates and Old Trafford and replace them with crumbly old terraces, or do you just post any old nonsense without actually thinking about it?

Another thing that pisses me off is the attitude of the polis, "terracing will be harder to police blah de blah". I attend 99% of Hibs games home and away and have done all my life and havn't been in trouble once, yet according to some ****head of a copper, stick me in a standing area and i'll automatically become a notourious hooligan!

Easter Road would be perfect for it. Chuck some metal barriers along every row and its easy as that. If you have 2000 'seats' you have 2000 tickets. No chance of over crowding. No more safer or dangerous than sitting.

DH1875
23-03-2011, 05:40 PM
Same typical responses i've read all before.

Amazes me how thick some people can be when this issue is brought up. "Do you think clubs are gonna tear down new stands after spending millions on them yadda yadda yadda". Those that come out with this pesh, do you honestly think the people calling for some safe standing areas want to rip down the Emirates and Old Trafford and replace them with crumbly old terraces, or do you just post any old nonsense without actually thinking about it?

Another thing that pisses me off is the attitude of the polis, "terracing will be harder to police blah de blah". I attend 99% of Hibs games home and away and have done all my life and havn't been in trouble once, yet according to some ****head of a copper, stick me in a standing area and i'll automatically become a notourious hooligan!

Easter Road would be perfect for it. Chuck some metal barriers along every row and its easy as that. If you have 2000 'seats' you have 2000 tickets. No chance of over crowding. No more safer or dangerous than sitting.


Agree 100% and would love to see some sort of standing area. Just to be on the safe side if you did have an area for 2000 people they could cut it down and maybe only have 1500 people in it. They could make it season ticket holders only and through up a couple of cameras for security.

ancient hibee
23-03-2011, 06:12 PM
In these days of ambulance chasers none of the big clubs will go for it and probably couldn't get the insurance to cover fans.

mickki40
24-03-2011, 04:19 AM
Same typical responses i've read all before.

Amazes me how thick some people can be when this issue is brought up. "Do you think clubs are gonna tear down new stands after spending millions on them yadda yadda yadda". Those that come out with this pesh, do you honestly think the people calling for some safe standing areas want to rip down the Emirates and Old Trafford and replace them with crumbly old terraces, or do you just post any old nonsense without actually thinking about it?

Another thing that pisses me off is the attitude of the polis, "terracing will be harder to police blah de blah". I attend 99% of Hibs games home and away and have done all my life and havn't been in trouble once, yet according to some ****head of a copper, stick me in a standing area and i'll automatically become a notourious hooligan!

Easter Road would be perfect for it. Chuck some metal barriers along every row and its easy as that. If you have 2000 'seats' you have 2000 tickets. No chance of over crowding. No more safer or dangerous than sitting.

Hear hear... I have seen it done in Sweden and it works

green&left
24-03-2011, 08:42 PM
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/photo-gallery

Jones28
24-03-2011, 11:33 PM
Would it be that hard to make an enclosure like the one on the slideshow in the lower Famous Five?
Fairly shallow elavation, just some safety rails and some new seats is all it would take :agree:

lucky
24-03-2011, 11:35 PM
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/photo-gallery

First time I have seen that. Clearly shows that it can be done. I doubt many clubs would be willing to spend money on it but certainly clubs should trial it in the future.

Ross4356
24-03-2011, 11:42 PM
I suspect the East is too steep to do it there. Maybe the lower areas of the other stands but can't see it. Crowd control and knowing who bought a ticket for a particular seat will see it all seated fir a considerable time yet.

You are 100% correct mate...this was discussed during the fans forum stage before the East was built, the angle is to steep. In ER we would only be able to do this in the bottom tier of the west or the north. The top tier of these stands IIRC is the same gradient as the whole of the East