Libya 'to halt military action'

[H18sry]

Libya call for a cease fire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12787739 We shall see if they are true to there word.

[Beefster]

Obviously, it's purely to protect their citizens and nothing whatsoever to do with the UN resolution....

[heretoday]

And the UN resolution is obviously all to do with protecting Libyan citizens and nothing to do with oil.

[Beefster]

And the UN resolution is obviously all to do with protecting Libyan citizens and nothing to do with oil.

Apologies if I offended you by suggesting that Gaddafi was telling porky pies.

If the resolution is to protect the oil, why did the UN vote against the invasion of Iraq? Iraq has way more oil.

[Andy74]

Libya call for a cease fire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12787739 We shall see if they are true to there word.

That way no-one can come in and attack Gaddafi and he sits tight. If he continues to attack the rebels he gets his forces bombed to bits and loses.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Gunboat diplomacy lives on! Cold steel it's the only language these fuzzy wuzzies understand.

[Betty Boop]

Apologies if I offended you by suggesting that Gaddafi was telling porky pies.

If the resolution is to protect the oil, why did the UN vote against the invasion of Iraq? Iraq has way more oil.


Apparently Libya produces some of the highest quality light crude oil in the world, it is easily refineable, and also low in sulphur which makes it cleaner to burn.

[(((Fergus)))]

Apparently Libya produces some of the highest quality light crude oil in the world, it is easily refineable, and also low in sulphur which makes it cleaner to burn.

Libyan oil is exquisite plus much of the country is still unexplored.

Also most Libyan oil is exported to Europe and our refineries are geared to "sweet" Libyan oil and will struggle to find replacements. That's another reason petrol etc is getting so expensive.

[heretoday]

Libyan oil is exquisite plus much of the country is still unexplored.

Also most Libyan oil is exported to Europe and our refineries are geared to "sweet" Libyan oil and will struggle to find replacements. That's another reason petrol etc is getting so expensive.


Yup. It's the oil all right. If only the powers that be would just be honest and admit it I wouldn't mind so much, although if I had a son or daughter risking their lives so that Outraged of Tunbridge Wells can fill up his Vx Astra at an affordable price I might be less pleased.

[Woody1985]

It's not just a case of keeping petrol prices low so we can drive over to a friends. Surely it's the world economy at risk when countries with large amount of oil have civil wars, which in turn could affect hundreds of millions of people.

Whether it's right or wrong for other countries to intervene I don't know.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The Norwegians better start to worry. It seems that any small country with oil reserves is fair game for a "rescue" by the UN.

[(((Fergus)))]

The Norwegians better start to worry. It seems that any small country with oil reserves is fair game for a "rescue" by the UN.

If King Harald started shooting protesters and invited Syrian pilots to come and bomb them because his own air force wouldn't, not only would the UN get involved but I dare say few here would object?

[Dinkydoo]

Gadaffi quoted saying something lke "I will not retaliate to the violent actions of Britain, USA..etc" on the news last night.

How he can now decide to take the moral highground is beyond me :faf:

[Betty Boop]

If King Harald started shooting protesters and invited Syrian pilots to come and bomb them because his own air force wouldn't, not only would the UN get involved but I dare say few here would object?

Syria has its hand full with their own protesters.

[(((Fergus)))]

Syria has its hand full with their own protesters.

Aye and the other hand is helping Gaddafi with weapons and pilots.

Syrian population has been well marshaled for years and years, Islamists literally exterminated in 1982. It will be quite something if they manage to topple the regime there.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If King Harald started shooting protesters and invited Syrian pilots to come and bomb them because his own air force wouldn't, not only would the UN get involved but I dare say few here would object?

If King Harald wasn't sitting on oil reserves, do you think the world would give a toss? Ask Robert Mugabe, or Papa Doc Duvalier.

[clerriehibs]

If King Harald started shooting protesters and invited Syrian pilots to come and bomb them because his own air force wouldn't, not only would the UN get involved but I dare say few here would object?


You mean like the Bahrein Royal Family, shooting their own protestors and wheeling in Saudi tanks?

Or are they different, because they're on "our side"?

Zimbabwe's safe though ... no oil there.

[(((Fergus)))]

If King Harald wasn't sitting on oil reserves, do you think the world would give a toss? Ask Robert Mugabe, or Papa Doc Duvalier.

Of course, although possibly slightly more since white people killing whites gets more attention than browns killing browns or blacks killing blacks but in general you're right: politicians are aware of our sensibilities and so leave the materialist part of their war aims unsaid in favour of the more idealistic aspects such as freedom and democracy, which are probably only incidental at best.

That said, what price, if any, would fuel have to reach before you demanded intervention?

And if you were a politician would you rather fight an oil war overseas or wait until the effects of that war destabilised your own country? Long term solution is definitely to free ourselves from oil - Islamist/dictatorial oil in particular - and develop alternative technologies (although obviously not nuclear).

Perhaps that is what the whole super-moon tsunami - literal and figurative - is about.

[(((Fergus)))]

You mean like the Bahrein Royal Family, shooting their own protestors and wheeling in Saudi tanks?

Or are they different, because they're on "our side"?

Zimbabwe's safe though ... no oil there.

Yes they are different because they are on our side. More importantly, the Iranians - who wish to take over Bahrain and after that eastern Saudi Arabia - are not on our side. They are on our side because of oil and I wish we had nothing to do with the basturts but until we develop alternatives we are stuck with them.

[Beefster]

If King Harald wasn't sitting on oil reserves, do you think the world would give a toss? Ask Robert Mugabe, or Papa Doc Duvalier.

That argument falls down with Bosnia, I would imagine.

[clerriehibs]

Yes they are different because they are on our side. More importantly, the Iranians - who wish to take over Bahrain and after that eastern Saudi Arabia - are not on our side. They are on our side because of oil and I wish we had nothing to do with the basturts but until we develop alternatives we are stuck with them.

So it's ok for them to shoot their own people (as does gaddafi), and wheel in another country's military to suppress their own people (as does gaddafi), and it's ok because they're on our side and are easy to deal with in regards to oil. But it's not ok for gaddafi to do so (because we have a bit of history there, I'm guessing?)

[Phil D. Rolls]

That said, what price, if any, would fuel have to reach before you demanded intervention?



I wonder how people in Britain would have felt, had the world intervened here after Bloody Sunday. It's the double standards that get me, not to mention the expense. How much longer are we going to be the world's soldiers?

[Phil D. Rolls]

That argument falls down with Bosnia, I would imagine.

Yes, and no. My real gripe is that the world is selective about which mad dictators they try to stop. Some are mad and bad and some are mad but just a bit misguided. It's hard to see any logic, or justice, in our compassion.

[heretoday]

You mean like the Bahrein Royal Family, shooting their own protestors and wheeling in Saudi tanks?

Or are they different, because they're on "our side"?

Zimbabwe's safe though ... no oil there.


Hear Hear! The voice of sanity. :agree:

[Betty Boop]

Over in Afghanistan the Americans are bracing themselves for riots, after pictures have been released of the actions of an army kill team.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27738.htm

[Alec Splode]

Yes, and no. My real gripe is that the world is selective about which mad dictators they try to stop. Some are mad and bad and some are mad but just a bit misguided. It's hard to see any logic, or justice, in our compassion.

Indeed.
..and the thing about Bosnia was, it truly was a WORLD police force who got invoved, with forces from almost every European country plus the big-hitters of Russia, USA , Germany - even Pakistan & Egypt.

This is where the UN works, in taking collective measures for righting wrongs - with the ultimate aim of national peace & security - unlike the colonial manoeuvrings of Iraq and , as it seems to me, Libya ; where the ultimate mission aims are blurred in rhetoric, to suit certain member states. imho
I'd be a lot happier with our governments decision to get involved in Libya, if we had common consensus from the likes of Germany, Russia or even China - otherwise what's the point of the UN Security council ?

[(((Fergus)))]

Indeed.
..and the thing about Bosnia was, it truly was a WORLD police force who got invoved, with forces from almost every European country plus the big-hitters of Russia, USA , Germany - even Pakistan & Egypt.

This is where the UN works, in taking collective measures for righting wrongs - with the ultimate aim of national peace & security - unlike the colonial manoeuvrings of Iraq and , as it seems to me, Libya ; where the ultimate mission aims are blurred in rhetoric, to suit certain member states. imho
I'd be a lot happier with our governments decision to get involved in Libya, if we had common consensus from the likes of Germany, Russia or even China - otherwise what's the point of the UN Security council ?

The UN is not some holy, transpersonal organisation, it is just a bunch of nations and national blocs, each jockeying for power and pushing their own self-interested agendas - just as we (among many others, overtly and covertly) are doing in Libya. It would be great to take the moral high ground and leave these countries to their own devices but the reality is we are dependent on oil. Hopefully these oil wars are just a short/mid-term strategy to buy enough time to move to alternatives but somehow I doubt it.

[clerriehibs]

Indeed.
..and the thing about Bosnia was, it truly was a WORLD police force who got invoved, with forces from almost every European country plus the big-hitters of Russia, USA , Germany - even Pakistan & Egypt.

This is where the UN works, in taking collective measures for righting wrongs - with the ultimate aim of national peace & security - unlike the colonial manoeuvrings of Iraq and , as it seems to me, Libya ; where the ultimate mission aims are blurred in rhetoric, to suit certain member states. imho
I'd be a lot happier with our governments decision to get involved in Libya, if we had common consensus from the likes of Germany, Russia or even China - otherwise what's the point of the UN Security council ?

It allows whitewashing of dodgy self-interest decisions. Remove the power of veto from the council, and enforce yes/no votes by removing "abstaining". Then things might get a bit fairer and more transparent.

[Alec Splode]

The UN is not some holy, transpersonal organisation, it is just a bunch of nations and national blocs, each jockeying for power and pushing their own self-interested agendas - just as we (among many others, overtly and covertly) are doing in Libya. It would be great to take the moral high ground and leave these countries to their own devices but the reality is we are dependent on oil. Hopefully these oil wars are just a short/mid-term strategy to buy enough time to move to alternatives but somehow I doubt it.

Unfortunately though, the UN is set up as an organisation to maintain international peace and security by taking transpersonal collective measures.

Sadly it seems to be working more in the way you describe, so until something changes, like Clerriehibs suggestion to alter the voting system, what's the point of the UN Security Council ?

It's easy to say we're dependent on oil; but the inherent hatred aimed at the west borne by victims & opponents of allied operations will only multiply, and still be with us long after the oil's gone. Anyhow, what's this got to do with oil . I thought we were protecting Libyan cibvilians ?

[(((Fergus)))]

Unfortunately though, the UN is set up as an organisation to maintain international peace and security by taking transpersonal collective measures.

Sadly it seems to be working more in the way you describe, so until something changes, like Clerriehibs suggestion to alter the voting system, what's the point of the UN Security Council ?

It's easy to say we're dependent on oil; but the inherent hatred aimed at the west borne by victims & opponents of allied operations will only multiply, and still be with us long after the oil's gone. Anyhow, what's this got to do with oil . I thought we were protecting Libyan cibvilians ?

Well that's the fig leaf, like we used to say we were spreading Christianity, but what difference would it make if the politicians openly admitted that oil was the issue? Would we all suddenly stop wanting foreign holidays, imported fresh foods, central heating, high-performance cars? Who is happy to travel 10 miles a day on a donkey rather than hundreds or thousands of miles with oil?

Re the UN, what kind of voting system would stop govts acting on self-interest and start acting on principle?

[bighairyfaeleith]

The libya situation leaves me a bit torn to be honest.

On one hand, Gaddafi is an absolute lunatic and should not be allowed to kill his own people.

However his own people have started this civil war and are engaging into battle with guns. Are we getting involved just because they had started to lose, because about a week these same people didn't want any outside involvement.

Is this about setting up a no fly zone, if so when is there been so many nights bombing, gadaffi hasn't flown any planes for days apparently?

I personally am fed up with our soldiers fighting wars around the world that have nothing to do with us, the sooner we learn to sit back and not get involved the better.

Like I said, I am torn, mainly because I can see the logic in a no fly zone, however I am not sure that is what is happening, I am also uncomfortable with us picking one mad man and ignoring the rest.

It's not an easy topic.

[clerriehibs]

The libya situation leaves me a bit torn to be honest.

On one hand, Gaddafi is an absolute lunatic and should not be allowed to kill his own people.

However his own people have started this civil war and are engaging into battle with guns. Are we getting involved just because they had started to lose, because about a week these same people didn't want any outside involvement.

Is this about setting up a no fly zone, if so when is there been so many nights bombing, gadaffi hasn't flown any planes for days apparently?

I personally am fed up with our soldiers fighting wars around the world that have nothing to do with us, the sooner we learn to sit back and not get involved the better.

Like I said, I am torn, mainly because I can see the logic in a no fly zone, however I am not sure that is what is happening, I am also uncomfortable with us picking one mad man and ignoring the rest.

It's not an easy topic.

Absolutely zip time for cameron or his ilk, but in one of his first public speeches after the resolution was signed, there was actually a glimmer of honesty. He said we won't just go in anywhere it was required, but we had to put our national interests first.

So there it was; almost a bit of truth about humanitarian issues being f-all to do with it. Our needs come first. Which makes him slightly better, although still completely offensive, than bliar, who lies through his teeth to this day.

And on humanitarian issues ... how much did comic relief raise? About £74m so far. And osborne, without knowing how this military action will pan out (no-one does), thinks it will cost us in the tens of millions ... that can probably double, treble, multiply by 10 or 100 ... who knows? What's obvious is there's plenty of money in the coffers, just not for real humanitarian isues.