Gordon Smith v Willie Waddell

[Baldy Foghorn]

Reading Lawrie Reilly's book, and says in 1948 although GS was the better player, Scotland selectors picked Willie Waddell of Rangers. Can any older posters say if GS was the better player.....

Mind you, Scotland picking Rangers players over Hibs players even in 1948 is hardly surprising.....

[--------]

Reading Lawrie Reilly's book, and says in 1948 although GS was the better player, Scotland selectors picked Willie Waddell of Rangers. Can any older posters say if GS was the better player.....

Mind you, Scotland picking Rangers players over Hibs players even in 1948 is hardly surprising.....


Yes, he was. Gordon could play anywhere in the forward line - Waddell was pretty much a winger, period.

My father's take on it was that when Gordon played for Scotland, he was playing with players who didn't know his game and weren't on the same wavelength as him (who was?).

At Hibs he had a team around him who knew exactly what he was capable of, and who had learned to think along the same lines as him. My father always said that the FF didn't have to look to see where a team-mate was - they just KNEW.

The Scotland team was never the same 2 games running in those days, anyway, and a player who was used to playing with the same team-mates week after week was going to suffer unless he was picked consistently. That was never going to happen.

I DO remember my Dad losing the rag with a Hun who was determined to maintain that Waddell was better than Smith and asking him how come if Waddell was so good, Jock Govan regularly punted him into the front row of the Easter Road Main Stand?

(I THINK the Old Man was exaggerating a tiny wee bit here, but basically he was telling the truth.... :devil: )

[brog]

My Dad, who of course is completely unbiased says Gordon was a genius whereas Waddell was merely a very good player. He told me a great story re a game in early 50's when Rangers full back Shaw was mouthing off before the game that he would tame Smith & show that Waddell was man for Scotland. Apparently Gordon destroyed Shaw, Hibs won 4-1, Gordon scored 2 & laid others on. Near the end of the game Gordon waltzed past Shaw one more time, waited on him to catch up, then beat him another 2 or 3 times. Shaw finally threw himself at Gordon, almost like a wounded bull at a matador. Gordon stepped aside, looked at Shaw, rolled the ball over the line for a bye & walked away!
Pandemonium & Jock Shaw's brother Davie was playing for Hibs!

[--------]

My Dad, who of course is completely unbiased says Gordon was a genius whereas Waddell was merely a very good player. He told me a great story re a game in early 50's when Rangers full back Shaw was mouthing off before the game that he would tame Smith & show that Waddell was man for Scotland. Apparently Gordon destroyed Shaw, Hibs won 4-1, Gordon scored 2 & laid others on. Near the end of the game Gordon waltzed past Shaw one more time, waited on him to catch up, then beat him another 2 or 3 times. Shaw finally threw himself at Gordon, almost like a wounded bull at a matador. Gordon stepped aside, looked at Shaw, rolled the ball over the line for a bye & walked away!
Pandemonium & Jock Shaw's brother Davie was playing for Hibs!


Sounds as if your dad was as impartial as mine. :greengrin

FWIW he was firmly of the opinion that Jock Shaw wasn't fit to lace his brother Davy's boots.

Cannae say fairer than that! :devil:

[shagpile]

Reading Lawrie Reilly's book, and says in 1948 although GS was the better player, Scotland selectors picked Willie Waddell of Rangers. Can any older posters say if GS was the better player.....

Mind you, Scotland picking Rangers players over Hibs players even in 1948 is hardly surprising.....

I remember a programme in the 80's[?] where Brian Moore interviewed players from yesteryear. In the one with LR, lawrie credited Willie Waddell with laying on quite a number of his goals in internationals.
He did also say that the best player he ever played with was indeed Gordon Smith.
He also revealed that if he had moved from Hibs to another Scottish club it would have been rangers, but added that it would have been only if Hibs had wanted rid of him & it would have broken his heart as he was a Hibs man through & through.

[Woody1985]

My book was dispatched by amazon today.:greengrin

[Baldy Foghorn]

Thanks for the replies.... I would have loved to see the Famous Five play, and the tales of these wonderful players and some of the games they played in, and the memories people who saw them have, makes me very proud of the clubs history, and delighted they have had some recognition with a stand named after them......

[delbert]

My dad told me numerous stories about Gordon Smith (how I wish I had seen him play for us just once), one he liked to tell was taking an American friend to Easter Road to see Hibs play Aberdeen, this guy had never been to a football match in his life, but came away raving about what Gordon could do with a football, probably did'nt understand the game at all, but simply knew he had witnessed a genius at work. Apparently the bit that sealed it was when an Aberdeen player raced in to challenge Smith and Smith flicked it up and over his head and ran round the guy and caught it on his head, before doing exactly the same thing to the next guy who came in to challenge him. I think there are players who were capable on their day of taking the piss, like Johnstone and Cooper, and then there were players for whom it was just sheer natural ability, and Smith's record points to being far better than both of these guys, you almost feel cheated at not having seen the man play.

[Seanair]

I think there is some sort of consensus that Waddell was a good crosser of the ball and worthy of a Scotland place. But GS could make goals for others AND score them,
which surely made him the better player.
Any statto know Waddell's scoring record for Rangers and Scotland?

[Wembley67]

We should have a sticky about the famous five telling ye old tales, really is fascinating.

[Sammy7nil]

FWIIW My Dad, Uncles and their mates could Never speak highly enough of Smith. they raved about him and thought he was a genius.

My Dad's mate Charlie Anderson is credited with starting the shout "Gie The Baw to Reilly" he got a nice day out with Lawrie when the book was launched he is now 94 yrs young.

[jdships]

Reading Lawrie Reilly's book, and says in 1948 although GS was the better player, Scotland selectors picked Willie Waddell of Rangers. Can any older posters say if GS was the better player.....

Mind you, Scotland picking Rangers players over Hibs players even in 1948 is hardly surprising.....

Two different types of players who both had attributes aplenty.
Smith .
A genius with the ball , unpredictable , an alround footballer
Matches/Goals
Clubs 430/147
Scotland 19/4

Waddell
What today would be called an "old fashioned winger" with incredible pace , who always hit the bye line and "... " Deedle" could drop a ball on to Willie Thornton's head withour looking "
Matches/Goals
Rangers ( his only club) 201 /39
Scotland 18/6

At fear of sounding biased :greengrin it has to be the " thoroughbred " Smith for me . He was not only a great player he was a great entertainer :top marks
Leaving a match after watching him play you could only matvel at his skill as it was to play against him
:flag:

[HNA8]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/aug/12/guardianobituaries.football

Somewhat critical obituary by Brian Glanville which partly explains Smith's lack of caps (compared to Reilly, who had a shorter career).

[Kato]

Smith did have a wee purple patch with Scotland when he captained them for three or four games including (I think) an away win in Austria in which he was said to have ran the show.

I'm too young to have seen Gordon Smith play but my old man idolised and raved about him, whilst one of my uncle's classed himself as a "Gordon Smith Fan" and followed Hibs, then Hearts and then Dundee home and away just to watch him. He stopped going after Smith retired. What should be remembered is that in his retirement GS had his amateur status re-invoked. My Dad and Uncle took me down to Leith Links (must have been around 1964-65) to see one of his amateur games but I don't remember it as a football match as I couldn't see the pitch because of the crowd. All I really remember is the jostling, men climbing trees to catch a glimpse and general excitement at whatever was going on.

also and weirdly

There was an older guy who used to drink in the, now sadly closed, Clan Tavern on Albert Street - wee guy, slicked back, rocker hair.

This guy had stopped going to the games years ago bar the occasional visit and always said he was broken-hearted when Smith left. We were in the Clan after a Hibs game in the mid-eighties, a midweek in the league cup during the run that took us to final. Anyway this boy swithered over whether he would go to the final if Hibs got there and my pal called him a part-timer which sort of pissed the guy off. So, he told my mate to sit tight and he'd be back. He returned with five or six bound programme books, home and away, from the early 50's (he said he had quadruple that back in the house) but his piece de resistance was an old shoe box. Him and his pal had found out when and where GS had his hair cut. They'd skip school on the day, follow GS to the barber's and pick the hair up off the floor and keep some/sell some to other fans/nutters. I call that fanaticism - in a good way.

[--------]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/aug/12/guardianobituaries.football

Somewhat critical obituary by Brian Glanville which partly explains Smith's lack of caps (compared to Reilly, who had a shorter career).


"Where Matthews had the big-match temperament, Smith proved not to have it at all..." :rolleyes:

Bit odd, then, that he played in so many massive games for his clubs. And played well.

I would say that the clue lies in his age - he was 18 when first called up, with all the ballyhoo that the title of "the Scottish Stanley Matthews" entailed.

He was called up too young, and then dropped - to be fair, we had a lot of talented players in those days, and Waddell couldn't be said to have let Scotland down, or not to have been good enough. When Gordon was recalled as an experienced senior player, he blossomed for Scotland.

Matthews was also accused of lacking the big-match temperament in his first years as an England player - he debuted in 1934 at the age of 19, but really only came of age 2/3 years later.

The difference seems to have been that the England selectors persevered with Matthews; the Scotland selectors didn't with Gordon Smith.

At the time that Glanville's talking about, when Gordon was called into the Scotland team as a teenager, Matthews was in his 30's, and a long-experienced international forward.

IMO that comment, in an obituary, is both inaccurate and unnecessarily cruel to Gordon's memory.


Gordon was captain in this game - he's the guy with the pennants right at the start.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=39372

Tommy Younger and Lawrie Reilly are in here as well. Gordon and Lawrie both score; Tam saves well in the first half, gets clattered in the second. Note the "treatment" to get him back on his feet.

One nice comment from the voice-over - "the crowd gets ugly" - they were pretty ugly to start with as far as I could see.... :devil:

[1950's hibbie]

I remember those days and seem to recall Waddel at that time would be a mature player with lots of "national experience. I suspect his team mate and fellow Ranger Willie Thornton was also playing for both club and country at that time. My recollection was that Waddel was a legend to all in those days.

To show how young I was, at a game one time was right down at the the wall and Waddel was taking a corner, I was amazed at how hairy his legs were. Funny what you remember.

[Iggy Pope]

My old boy, however well or ill-informed he may have been, repeatedly stressed that Scotland's selectors would never under any circumstance, pick all 5 of the FF in one side. Don't know if the Gay Gordon was the only one to suffer, but I believe it to be true that the finest formation of naturalised Scots ever assembled in this formation, failed to start a full Scotland international together.

[snooky]

My old boy, however well or ill-informed he may have been, repeatedly stressed that Scotland's selectors would never under any circumstance, pick all 5 of the FF in one side. Don't know if the Gay Gordon was the only one to suffer, but I believe it to be true that the finest formation of naturalised Scots ever assembled in this formation, failed to start a full Scotland international together.

As I said in a previous post, my late uncle told me that the nearest the FF got to playing for Scotland together was 4 of them. Ned being the one left out. I've no idea when, where or against who.

[Iggy Pope]

As I said in a previous post, my late uncle told me that the nearest the FF got to playing for Scotland together was 4 of them. Ned being the one left out. I've no idea when, where or against who.

I've not much clue either, but I believed that Waddell was the 5th man....

iHibs might have some idea.

[Purple & Green]

Two different types of players who both had attributes aplenty.
Smith .
A genius with the ball , unpredictable , an alround footballer
Matches/Goals
Clubs 430/147
Scotland 19/4

Waddell
What today would be called an "old fashioned winger" with incredible pace , who always hit the bye line and "... " Deedle" could drop a ball on to Willie Thornton's head withour looking "
Matches/Goals
Rangers ( his only club) 201 /39
Scotland 18/6

At fear of sounding biased :greengrin it has to be the " thoroughbred " Smith for me . He was not only a great player he was a great entertainer :top marks
Leaving a match after watching him play you could only matvel at his skill as it was to play against him
:flag:

Waddell played over 500 competitive games for Rangers and won 9 league championships, but he wasn't as heavy a scorer as Smith who played over 600 competitive games scoring over 300 competitive goals. Waddell was slightly older than Smith having signed for Rangers before the outbreak of the war - ie both players careers were hindered by the war.

[Purple & Green]

As I said in a previous post, my late uncle told me that the nearest the FF got to playing for Scotland together was 4 of them. Ned being the one left out. I've no idea when, where or against who.

I was reading about this the other week and I'm fairly sure it was a Scottish league side, it's this game here http://www.londonhearts.com/SFL/games/19521008.html - the media reports at the time were quite revealing - even some of the Glasgow media were calling for the five to be included en masse.

[snooky]

I was reading about this the other week and I'm fairly sure it was a Scottish league side, it's this game here http://www.londonhearts.com/SFL/games/19521008.html - the media reports at the time were quite revealing - even some of the Glasgow media were calling for the five to be included en masse.

Thanks for that P&G - brilliant!

[jdships]

Waddell played over 500 competitive games for Rangers and won 9 league championships, but he wasn't as heavy a scorer as Smith who played over 600 competitive games scoring over 300 competitive goals. Waddell was slightly older than Smith having signed for Rangers before the outbreak of the war - ie both players careers were hindered by the war.

I was quoting league appearances - sorry

From Official Rangers records
William Waddel 1939/55
Appearances 301
Goals 55

Gordon Smith
1940/59
Appearances 636 ( including Hearts and Dundee)
Goals 303 (including 4 penalties)

Smith worked in Robb's shipyard in WW2

[Boris]

Wattie Robb telt me on many an occassion that the Gay Gordon was the best player that ever pulled on a pair of boots - that's good enough for me:thumbsup:

[Septimus]

This is like comparing potatoes with eggs. Smith was an elegant player who benefited from being in a forward line which interchanged. Waddell could never be called elegant and his team worked well as a unit but without that much maligned "flair". A team with Sammy Cox, Ian McColl, George Young, and Willie Woodburn were worthy oponents but never had a stanglehold on the league as they, with their fellow combatants, Celtic do now.

The difference was magnified as they approached the end of their careers, The last time I saw Waddell was at Dens Park and he was carrying a fair bit of excess Waddell. His speed had dropped to near zero and his frustration was plain to see.

Smith on the other hand improved with age. He seemed to get better and better. He was a natural.

[BryanV]

What next, a thread on Sauzee v Pasquale Bruno?