Police officers paid more than doctors/nurses??

[lyonhibs]

I don't know if anyone else was watching this, but on "This Morning" or "Breakfast" or whatever BBC1's morning news show is called, they were discussing the cuts being levied against police forces, and how these (absolutely immoral in scale IMO, but that's for another thread) cuts could be absorbed with minimal impact on front-line services (the summary from the knowledgeable panel was that, effectively, they can't be)

Anyway, one of the guys - some ex police commisioner with 30 years service - said "Police officers start on a better salary than nurses + doctors, and rightly so because they do a much harder job" - or words very much to that effect.

1st of all, does anyone know if police officers DO actually start on a higher salary than doctors and nurses at the beginning of their careers.

Secondly, does anyone else thinks that a) it's an absolute joke if they do and b) the explanation proferred by the gentleman I quote is absolute bollocks?

I would not - for a millisecond - deny that the police do a difficult job in trying circumstances, and should be suitably paid for doing so, but for the specialised degrees, training and situations they will face on a day-to-day basis, starting doctors and nurses should get paid at least as well as police officers, if not better.

My sister is coming to the end of her nursing degree, and has done/seen things on placement in all sorts of wards that would send me scuttling for the sick bowl in 2 seconds flat.

I just think that if the situation with starting salaries is as the guy on BBC Breakfast highlights, then that's something that needs looked at - immediately.

[Jack]

Sounds like very selective stats. For example when I did some research a while ago for a job I was in a prison officers training in their 1st year cost more per person than that of a RAF pilot.

[ArabHibee]

Here's what you're looking for:


Public sector pay Job

Fire officer
Entry level - £21,157
After 5 years - £28,199
Police officer
Entry level - £23,259
After 5 years - £31,032
Nurse
Entry level - £21,176
After 5 years - £25,472
Teacher
Entry level - £21,588
After 5 years - £32,200
Armed forces
Entry level - £15,573
After 5 years - £24,615

SOURCES: NUT, FBU, RCN, AFPRB, WINSOR REVIEW

It was BBC Breakfast you were watching this morning. I nearly choked on my cornflakes when they were discussing how a police officer, who takes a "short" work related phone call whilst off duty, can claim for 4 hours overtime. I believe this was the Met they were talking about.

But remember folks, they put their 'life on the line' every time they are working. :rolleyes:

[Removed]

Here's what you're looking for:


Public sector pay Job
Entry level salary After 5 years (expected)
Fire officer £21,157 £28,199
Police officer £23,259 £31,032
Nurse £21,176 £25,472
Teacher £21,588 £32,200
Armed forces £15,573 £24,615

SOURCES: NUT, FBU, RCN, AFPRB, WINSOR REVIEW

It was BBC Breakfast you were watching this morning. I nearly choked on my cornflakes when they were discussing how a police officer, who takes a "short" work related phone call whilst off duty, can claim for 4 hours overtime. I believe this was the Met they were talking about.

But remember folks, they put their 'life on the line' every time they are working. :rolleyes:

:agree: and I've never yet met a fireman that can't make a 50 break or a 12 dart finish......and they have the cleanest cars around :rolleyes:

[ArabHibee]

:agree: and I've never yet met a fireman that can't make a 50 break or a 12 dart finish......and they have the cleanest cars around :rolleyes:

:bitchy: Let's keep this on topic about the police and not get into another 'debate' about the merits of the fire service.

[lyonhibs]

Here's what you're looking for:


Public sector pay Job

Fire officer
Entry level - £21,157
After 5 years - £28,199
Police officer
Entry level - £23,259
After 5 years - £31,032
Nurse
Entry level - £21,176
After 5 years - £25,472
Teacher
Entry level - £21,588
After 5 years - £32,200
Armed forces
Entry level - £15,573
After 5 years - £24,615

SOURCES: NUT, FBU, RCN, AFPRB, WINSOR REVIEW

It was BBC Breakfast you were watching this morning. I nearly choked on my cornflakes when they were discussing how a police officer, who takes a "short" work related phone call whilst off duty, can claim for 4 hours overtime. I believe this was the Met they were talking about.

But remember folks, they put their 'life on the line' every time they are working. :rolleyes:

Was this not a question that the presenter put to the ex-police Commisioner, who promptly denounced as being a media-led pile of cobblers?

Anyway, I'd be intrigued to know what a policeman does to earn more than £2k more starting salary and about 6k more after 5 years?? Who the hell decides on the disparity of wages?

Please note, this is not a pop at the police per se, only highlighting that either they are overpaid, or nurses are underpaid and - it would seem - relatively under-rewarded for long service.

The REALLY shameful starting salary there is the Armed Forces!!!

And I don't know what "history" re: the fire service there has been, but just gonnae no, as they say.

[ArabHibee]

Was this not a question that the presenter put to the ex-police Commisioner, who promptly denounced as being a media-led pile of cobblers?

Anyway, I'd be intrigued to know what a policeman does to earn more than £2k more starting salary and about 6k more after 5 years?? Who the hell decides on the disparity of wages?

Please note, this is not a pop at the police per se, only highlighting that either they are overpaid, or nurses are underpaid and - it would seem - relatively under-rewarded for long service.

The REALLY shameful starting salary there is the Armed Forces!!!

And I don't know what "history" re: the fire service there has been, but just gonnae no, as they say.

I know that the Armed Forces salaries look shameful in respect to the others there but you need to take into account that they get housing and food paid for them.

Look at the Teacher's projected salary after 5 years, that is shameful, shameful that they get that much, considering the amount of days they actually work!!

[truehibernian]

I don't know if anyone else was watching this, but on "This Morning" or "Breakfast" or whatever BBC1's morning news show is called, they were discussing the cuts being levied against police forces, and how these (absolutely immoral in scale IMO, but that's for another thread) cuts could be absorbed with minimal impact on front-line services (the summary from the knowledgeable panel was that, effectively, they can't be)

Anyway, one of the guys - some ex police commisioner with 30 years service - said "Police officers start on a better salary than nurses + doctors, and rightly so because they do a much harder job" - or words very much to that effect.

1st of all, does anyone know if police officers DO actually start on a higher salary than doctors and nurses at the beginning of their careers.

Secondly, does anyone else thinks that a) it's an absolute joke if they do and b) the explanation proferred by the gentleman I quote is absolute bollocks?

I would not - for a millisecond - deny that the police do a difficult job in trying circumstances, and should be suitably paid for doing so, but for the specialised degrees, training and situations they will face on a day-to-day basis, starting doctors and nurses should get paid at least as well as police officers, if not better.

My sister is coming to the end of her nursing degree, and has done/seen things on placement in all sorts of wards that would send me scuttling for the sick bowl in 2 seconds flat.

I just think that if the situation with starting salaries is as the guy on BBC Breakfast highlights, then that's something that needs looked at - immediately.

Not wishing to sound facetious lyonhibs, but does Derek Riordan deserve a six figure salary for kicking a little ball about a pitch for 90 minutes, in comparison to the job your sister is going to do ?

I think it's payment for a difficult job which over the years has become much more diverse than perhaps us oldies remembering Z Cars and the like could compare to.

No doubt at all that the police have to cut their cloth and the overtime bills banded about the media are shocking. But that boils down to mismanagement at the top, not on the front line IMHO. Nurses, fire officers and police do a grand job in the grand scheme of things.

But your point was about police in particular. I would say that they by in large work anti-social hours, deal with a multitude of incidents such as murder, rape, stabbings, missing people, anti-social behaviour, road traffic matters, football, rugby, marches, no doubt the ridiculous paperwork and beaurocracy that goes along with it, and knowing the legislation. It is a skilled profession and a hard one. For me they do put their lives on the line. You could argue we all do when we cross the road or get in our cars, however we are not potentially running into someone's house who is getting their head kicked in or facing a knife or gun.

Absolutely agree 100% that nurses deserve a lot more. But for me, for the job they do, I think the police get fairly renumerated. I think they also pay a sizeable chunk into a pension scheme (over 10% rings a bell).....admittedly it is a decent pension at the end of it, but hey, that's if they make it that far and for how long.

Like every profession though, some are deserving and some are not. You get good polis and some bad. But having been in hospital a couple of times, and also having been misdiagnosed by a GP to the point of near death in 1997, there are some nurses and doctors who should be struck off with no payment whatsoever.

[vincipernoi]

junior doctors start their pay in the low to medium 20K by and large

[Peevemor]

Not wishing to sound facetious lyonhibs, but does Derek Riordan deserve a six figure salary for kicking a little ball about a pitch for 90 minutes, in comparison to the job your sister is going to do ?

I think it's payment for a difficult job which over the years has become much more diverse than perhaps us oldies remembering Z Cars and the like could compare to.

No doubt at all that the police have to cut their cloth and the overtime bills banded about the media are shocking. But that boils down to mismanagement at the top, not on the front line IMHO. Nurses, fire officers and police do a grand job in the grand scheme of things.

But your point was about police in particular. I would say that they by in large work anti-social hours, deal with a multitude of incidents such as murder, rape, stabbings, missing people, anti-social behaviour, road traffic matters, football, rugby, marches, no doubt the ridiculous paperwork and beaurocracy that goes along with it, and knowing the legislation. It is a skilled profession and a hard one. For me they do put their lives on the line. You could argue we all do when we cross the road or get in our cars, however we are not potentially running into someone's house who is getting their head kicked in or facing a knife or gun.

Absolutely agree 100% that nurses deserve a lot more. But for me, for the job they do, I think the police get fairly renumerated. I think they also pay a sizeable chunk into a pension scheme (over 10% rings a bell).....admittedly it is a decent pension at the end of it, but hey, that's if they make it that far and for how long.

:top marks


For a couple of reasons, I could have walked straight into the police when I was younger. I was very tempted as I would have immediately doubled my salary, but at the end of the day even that wasn't enough given the stuff I'd have had to do and the crap I'd have had to put up with.

[hibbytam]

I know that the Armed Forces salaries look shameful in respect to the others there but you need to take into account that they get housing and food paid for them.

Look at the Teacher's projected salary after 5 years, that is shameful, shameful that they get that much, considering the amount of days they actually work!!

Teachers work about 50 hours a week........

[GlesgaeHibby]

I know that the Armed Forces salaries look shameful in respect to the others there but you need to take into account that they get housing and food paid for them.

Look at the Teacher's projected salary after 5 years, that is shameful, shameful that they get that much, considering the amount of days they actually work!!

Away and don't talk nonsense. Teachers get paid a 35 hour week but I've yet to meet a teacher that works a 35 hour week. The vast majority of teachers do way more than 35 hours a week, including extra curricular free work such as study classes, as well as marking and preparation for lessons.

[ArabHibee]

Teachers work about 50 hours a week........

And firemen work a 48 hour week. What's your point?

[ArabHibee]

Away and don't talk nonsense. Teachers get paid a 35 hour week but I've yet to meet a teacher that works a 35 hour week. The vast majority of teachers do way more than 35 hours a week, including extra curricular free work such as study classes, as well as marking and preparation for lessons.

Again, I don't see me posting anything about how many hours they work. See my post above.

[Speedy]

I know that the Armed Forces salaries look shameful in respect to the others there but you need to take into account that they get housing and food paid for them.

Look at the Teacher's projected salary after 5 years, that is shameful, shameful that they get that much, considering the amount of days they actually work!!

I may be wrong but could you not join the Armed Forces with no qualifications/experience where as the others require previous training/qualifications/experience?

[marinello59]

I know that the Armed Forces salaries look shameful in respect to the others there but you need to take into account that they get housing and food paid for them.


They don't.

[ArabHibee]

They don't.
Yes they do.

[Steve-O]

junior doctors start their pay in the low to medium 20K by and large

Maybe they want to move over to NZ then...I am living with a doctor in her first full year out of uni and she's started on about $68k NZD not counting any overtime...that's about 35,000 GBP...:agree:

[marinello59]

Yes they do.
They don't.:greengrin
Married soldiers pay rent for their married quarters and pay for their own groceries, just like everybody else.
Single soldiers pay for their accomodation in barracks and their food.
On operational duties rations are paid for but I don't think we are going to grudge them a few tins of compo rations.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Teachers work about 50 hours a week........

:hilarious Right enough!

Primary School teachers are lucky if they make it to the 30 hour per week mark.

[johnbc70]

Teachers work about 50 hours a week........

Maybe some do, but I am betting the nearly 3 months of paid holiday a year make up for it.

[Allant1981]

Yes they do.

No they dont, food and housing is taken out their pay each month

[Allant1981]

I may be wrong but could you not join the Armed Forces with no qualifications/experience where as the others require previous training/qualifications/experience?

depends what regiment you want to join

[RyeSloan]

:hilarious Right enough!

Primary School teachers are lucky if they make it to the 30 hour per week mark.

Too right. I had the (mis) fortune to go out with a primary school teacher for some time and I can assure you she did not do a 50 hour week, nothing like it and even if they did it would harldy be a high pressure 50 hours consdiering they are teaching for only about 5 hours a day!

They also 'finish' teaching at around 3pm so if being paid a 35 hour week have at least two hours a day to do said marking and prep.

Their holiday allocation is also absolutely massive, their terms and conditions pretty good compared to most, tend to be able to drive and park at their place of work and of course don't seem to have too much in the way of critical review/analysis/appraisal to worry about.

Sure when cirriculum changes come in there is a requirement to prepare new class work and student teachers often have a tough time but once in with their feet under the desk you have to admit that it's quite a good gig for quite a lot of them....even more worrying is the level of intellegence some of the teachers I met had...wow.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Too right. I had the (mis) fortune to go out with a primary school teacher for some time and I can assure you she did not do a 50 hour week, nothing like it and even if they did it would harldy be a high pressure 50 hours consdiering they are teaching for only about 5 hours a day!

They also 'finish' teaching at around 3pm so if being paid a 35 hour week have at least two hours a day to do said marking and prep.

Their holiday allocation is also absolutely massive, their terms and conditions pretty good compared to most, tend to be able to drive and park at their place of work and of course don't seem to have too much in the way of critical review/analysis/appraisal to worry about.

Sure when cirriculum changes come in there is a requirement to prepare new class work and student teachers often have a tough time but once in with their feet under the desk you have to admit that it's quite a good gig for quite a lot of them....even more worrying is the level of intellegence some of the teachers I met had...wow.

I wonder what they thought of you:hmmm:

[steakbake]

I wonder what they thought of you:hmmm:

SiMar has potential if only he stopped playing to the gallery.

(or similar report card based cliche)

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's hard to say if the police do a harder job than nurses or not. At the end of the day, it comes down to which of these services society values more.

Personally, I've got a lot of time for the police, they have to deal with violence towards them regularly. I'm maybe biased, but I've seen some pretty awful nurses in action. So maybe you get what you pay for?

What does bother me slightly is that a conductor on Scotrail has a higher starting salary than a nurse. I mean, do we really need an orchestra on every train?

[Removed]

It's hard to say if the police do a harder job than nurses or not. At the end of the day, it comes down to which of these services society values more.

Personally, I've got a lot of time for the police, they have to deal with violence towards them regularly. I'm maybe biased, but I've seen some pretty awful nurses in action. So maybe you get what you pay for?

Aye but have you experienced a bed bath from FranckSuzy :greengrin

[Jack]

At the end of the day that’s how much they need to pay to recruit and retain their employees. :rolleyes:

[Beefster]

At the end of the day that’s how much they need to pay to recruit and retain their employees. :rolleyes:

This is it in a nutshell. Folk get paid what the market dictates. It's nothing to do with how 'important' the job is or how much **** you have to put up with.

[heretoday]

I think hospital cleaners should get more pay. Also nursing auxiliaries in care homes. They do the crappy - but important - jobs for terrible wages.

It's probably why we have so many dirty hospitals and neglected patients.

[IndieHibby]

:hilarious Right enough!

Primary School teachers are lucky if they make it to the 30 hour per week mark.

Ok. Had enough of the teacher-bashing. I do 50-60hrs a week. Every week. I also know enough about primary school teaching to know that you are talking balls. How did you come up with that figure? Do you know lots of incompetent primary school teachers?

[modsquad]

Police Officers pay 11% of their salary towards their pension, which is the highest of all public sector workers. They also have the shortest life expectancy post retiral.

They also pay £27 per month in federation subs (police union with no industrial power).

As far as officers claiming 4 hours at double time for a 5 minute phone call, I've never met anyone in the force I work for claim this. I'm not saying that there are those who work for other forces, that may make use of this technicality (which I personally think is a disgrace).

The average week for an officer is about 40 hours. Very rarely do most I know get a chance to have a proper meal break.

Police Officers and those who serve in the armed forces do not have the right to take industrial action which means we are at the mercy of the Home Secretary in relation to pay and conditions. Nurses, teachers, water faries etc have that right if they are unhappy. We also deal with a greater variety of incidents than any of these other occupations.

[Beefster]

Police Officers pay 11% of their salary towards their pension, which is the highest of all public sector workers. They also have the shortest life expectancy post retiral.

They also pay £27 per month in federation subs (police union with no industrial power).

As far as officers claiming 4 hours at double time for a 5 minute phone call, I've never met anyone in the force I work for claim this. I'm not saying that there are those who work for other forces, that may make use of this technicality (which I personally think is a disgrace).

The average week for an officer is about 40 hours. Very rarely do most I know get a chance to have a proper meal break.

Police Officers and those who serve in the armed forces do not have the right to take industrial action which means we are at the mercy of the Home Secretary in relation to pay and conditions. Nurses, teachers, water faries etc have that right if they are unhappy. We also deal with a greater variety of incidents than any of these other occupations.

Whilst I'm sympathetic to the difficulties of your profession, there is nothing that you've mentioned that most working people don't have to put up with. Pension contributions, lack of proper union representation, 40 hour weeks, little overtime and a lack of breaks is nothing out of the ordinary.

[Jack]

Whilst I'm sympathetic to the difficulties of your profession, there is nothing that you've mentioned that most working people don't have to put up with. Pension contributions, lack of proper union representation, 40 hour weeks, little overtime and a lack of breaks is nothing out of the ordinary.

I think that’s a bit unfair, we all know that ra police have to deal with some gruesome incidents that he could have mentioned. OK murders aren't very common but dealing with the after effects of road smashes are all too common and telling the parents of an 18 year old daughter that her various body parts are currently spread over 100 yards of roadway cant be pleasant to do or to witness and deal with and that’s besides the daily contact with the scourge of society most of us love to avoid.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think hospital cleaners should get more pay. Also nursing auxiliaries in care homes. They do the crappy - but important - jobs for terrible wages.

It's probably why we have so many dirty hospitals and neglected patients.

There's no shortage of people wanting to do those jobs at the moment. Maybe the problem is that there aren't enough employed.

That said, I'd question how many dirty hospitals and neglected patients there actually are these days - I'm sure the figures for things like MRSA and C Diff. are decreasing annually. At least they should be the amount of resources and time that are being thrown at them.

Part of the problem is that stories about increases in cancer survival rates don't make as good copy as a tale of a care worker abusing a patient. So you rarely see a positive story about patient care in the papers.

[Beefster]

I think that’s a bit unfair, we all know that ra police have to deal with some gruesome incidents that he could have mentioned. OK murders aren't very common but dealing with the after effects of road smashes are all too common and telling the parents of an 18 year old daughter that her various body parts are currently spread over 100 yards of roadway cant be pleasant to do or to witness and deal with and that’s besides the daily contact with the scourge of society most of us love to avoid.

I said I was sympathetic to the actual job. The points that I was responding to were about pay and conditions.

The fact remains though that folk choose to become police officers. As I said earlier, the market dictates pay - the pay might be higher if there was a problem recruiting suitable numbers but I don't think that's the case.

[RyeSloan]

I wonder what they thought of you:hmmm:


SiMar has potential if only he stopped playing to the gallery.

(or similar report card based cliche)

:greengrin :greengrin

Who knows what they thought but I can only form my own opinion and that was that the general standard of some of the teachers in terms of maturity, knowledge on how to positively reinforce good behaviour and actual desire and motivation for their job was surprisingly poor.

To be fair I only met a few and it could hardly be considered a proper sample in scientific terms but there you go.

That said like all professions I am sure there is good and bad and that some will be very dedicated indeed….I’m just not sure there is systems in place to ensure those that aren’t are encouraged and trained to be so!

[RyeSloan]

This is it in a nutshell. Folk get paid what the market dictates. It's nothing to do with how 'important' the job is or how much **** you have to put up with.

Excellent point that is often missed when discussing such topics.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Ok. Had enough of the teacher-bashing. I do 50-60hrs a week. Every week. I also know enough about primary school teaching to know that you are talking balls. How did you come up with that figure? Do you know lots of incompetent primary school teachers?

I put it to you that if it takes you 50-60 hours per week to do your job that you may well be leaning toward incompetent...

[ArabHibee]

Police Officers pay 11% of their salary towards their pension, which is the highest of all public sector workers. They also have the shortest life expectancy post retiral.
They also pay £27 per month in federation subs (police union with no industrial power).
As far as officers claiming 4 hours at double time for a 5 minute phone call, I've never met anyone in the force I work for claim this. I'm not saying that there are those who work for other forces, that may make use of this technicality (which I personally think is a disgrace).
The average week for an officer is about 40 hours. Very rarely do most I know get a chance to have a proper meal break.
Police Officers and those who serve in the armed forces do not have the right to take industrial action which means we are at the mercy of the Home Secretary in relation to pay and conditions. Nurses, teachers, water faries etc have that right if they are unhappy. We also deal with a greater variety of incidents than any of these other occupations.
Is there really any need for that derogatory remark? I'm sure you would be first on here if there were folk calling the Police 'pigs' and 'filth'. I know there is no love lost between the police & fire brigade and I certainly know why.
Regarding the not able to strike remark. You would have known that when you signed up so you can't really use that as a gripe now, can you?

[ArabHibee]

I think that’s a bit unfair, we all know that ra police have to deal with some gruesome incidents that he could have mentioned. OK murders aren't very common but dealing with the after effects of road smashes are all too common and telling the parents of an 18 year old daughter that her various body parts are currently spread over 100 yards of roadway cant be pleasant to do or to witness and deal with and that’s besides the daily contact with the scourge of society most of us love to avoid
Sorry Jack, that argument just doesn't stand up for me I'm afraid. The other emergency services and also armed services will all have to deal with this kind of thing in one form or another.
Teachers, on the other hand.................

[lapsedhibee]

I know there is no love lost between the police & fire brigade and I certainly know why
Wanna share?

[Jack]

Sorry Jack, that argument just doesn't stand up for me I'm afraid. The other emergency services and also armed services will all have to deal with this kind of thing in one form or another.
Teachers, on the other hand.................

I just thought it was a tad unfair comparing ‘conditions of service’ i.e. contracts while not taking into account the conditions they work under, what they actually do.

I’ve no gripe with anyone, or any profession, or vocation, or trade (other than overrated overpaid people in the entertainment industry and virtually everyone on TV, but that’s a different matter).

As I said earlier “At the end of the day that’s how much they need to pay to recruit and retain their employees.”

People chose higher or lower remunerated jobs for any one of a billion reasons. We live in a society where we all depend on each other to a certain extent so, to me, everyone's job is important. Its becomes very subjective, as we’ve seen here, when attempting to determine the importance of one over the other.

[H18sry]

Police Officers pay 11% of their salary towards their pension, which is the highest of all public sector workers. They also have the shortest life expectancy post retiral.

They also pay £27 per month in federation subs (police union with no industrial power).

As far as officers claiming 4 hours at double time for a 5 minute phone call, I've never met anyone in the force I work for claim this. I'm not saying that there are those who work for other forces, that may make use of this technicality (which I personally think is a disgrace).

The average week for an officer is about 40 hours. Very rarely do most I know get a chance to have a proper meal break.

Police Officers and those who serve in the armed forces do not have the right to take industrial action which means we are at the mercy of the Home Secretary in relation to pay and conditions. Nurses, teachers, water faries etc have that right if they are unhappy. We also deal with a greater variety of incidents than any of these other occupations.

And receive 3/4 of your final salary as a pension, so after 5 years when your pension pot is dry, who should pick up the payments then?

[modsquad]

Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amending

[truehibernian]

Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amending

I see after today's Lord Hutton report that we will have police chasing bairns when they are in their 60's, nurses working longer and harder and the public services in general picking up the tab for the deficit (even though they lie and say it's not the case).

I personally can't wait to see PC Murdoch chasing kids around with his police issue zimmer frame, complete with flashing light and "nee naw" sound effect, can't wait to see Nurse Nightingale take blood whilst lying in the next hospital bed to her patient because her varicose veins are troubling her, and Fireman Sam needing ralgex and codeine for his bad back as he limbers up to tackle the ladders......

Anyone hear Lord Hutton this morning on Five Live when asked about whether MP's pensions have been examined and looked at in the same manner........the guy laughed arrogantly, and then had to find a suitable spade when Nicky Campbell pulled him up........with him then grovelling and saying MP's pensions will be looked at "broadly the same"...........oh aye, we all know a politician's definition of the word "broadly".......a bit like "vaguely" which is a bit like "we are looking after ourselves jack, don't worry about us"

For about half an hour this morning I felt very much like Citizen Smith.......can't wait for all the strikes to happen :aok::coffee: Standstill Britain in 2011...watch this space !

[Removed]

Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amending

I dislike the AA the most :agree:

[ArabHibee]

Wanna share?

Ask modsquad. He's the one slagging off the fire service


Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amending

You are correct with regard to your comment on Final Salary Schemes.

As regards to the rest of your post - :yawn:

The most visible? What exactly is that supposed to mean? And of course, they are going to be the most disliked, nurses and fire fighters can't arrest you and throw you in the pokey, can they?

I love the fact you talk about all the things the police do that the other emergency services don't; dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc
Do the police adminster drugs, process patients, care for patients, assist at operations and procedures etc that nurses do?
Do the police fight fires, cut people out of RTA's, rescue people from burning buildings, rivers and the like, fit and test fire alarms, give fire prevention talks, process paperwork etc that fire fighters do?
Interesting that you chose to ignore my remark about derogatory remarks, does the truth hurt?

[truehibernian]

I think Arabhibee that we would all agree that each profession mentioned have their merits, their different roles and different degrees of difficulty.

The question from the OP was did the police merit their level of salary. I think they do, because as someone else rightly posted, the market dictates salaries. As it is a public service I am quite sure that there have been various governmental reviews too, which have reviewed pay and conditions and reached the levels they are at.

For me the police I have dealt with have been superb (in Edinburgh). Granted there will always be a certain amount of officers who are poor at their job and the way they deal with people. But in the main, and certainly at football matches, they have been helpful, professional and polite. When reporting crime I have only ever had a very good service.

I have however very recently done some work with the Fire Service, specifically McDonald Road. Again, can't speak highly enough of them and the way the guys (it was all guys before I get any sexist remarks :greengrin) dealt with the project we wanted them to assist with was nothing but professional.

Hospital - certainly I have been lucky, but years ago I was hospitalised for a week in the Old Royal, and the nursing staff and consultants were just amazing. To the point where it was a wee tad emotional leaving being honest.

All in all, in a perfect world, people who work that hard and give so much back to the community should be well rewarded.....if not in money, in perks to make general living a bit easier.

I just wish the people who could work, but don't through laziness and idleness, yet moan about nurses, cops and fire service, instead of sitting claiming benefit, actually do a month on the wards, the beat, the city fire area........and then see how much they take for granted.

[Removed]

I think Arabhibee that we would all agree that each profession mentioned have their merits, their different roles and different degrees of difficulty.

The question from the OP was did the police merit their level of salary. I think they do, because as someone else rightly posted, the market dictates salaries. As it is a public service I am quite sure that there have been various governmental reviews too, which have reviewed pay and conditions and reached the levels they are at.

For me the police I have dealt with have been superb (in Edinburgh). Granted there will always be a certain amount of officers who are poor at their job and the way they deal with people. But in the main, and certainly at football matches, they have been helpful, professional and polite. When reporting crime I have only ever had a very good service.

I have however very recently done some work with the Fire Service, specifically McDonald Road. Again, can't speak highly enough of them and the way the guys (it was all guys before I get any sexist remarks :greengrin) dealt with the project we wanted them to assist with was nothing but professional.

Hospital - certainly I have been lucky, but years ago I was hospitalised for a week in the Old Royal, and the nursing staff and consultants were just amazing. To the point where it was a wee tad emotional leaving being honest.

All in all, in a perfect world, people who work that hard and give so much back to the community should be well rewarded.....if not in money, in perks to make general living a bit easier.

I just wish the people who could work, but don't through laziness and idleness, yet moan about nurses, cops and fire service, instead of sitting claiming benefit, actually do a month on the wards, the beat, the city fire area........and then see how much they take for granted.

Aye but have you had a car break down and been left waiting for ages :grr:

I'm switching to Green Flag :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amendingDue to the nature of their work policemen will come into contact with more threatening situations than say nurses but they have the power and tools to defend themselves, which is more than the wee nurse in A&E dealing with the same people.

[truehibernian]

Aye but have you had a car break down and been left waiting for ages :grr:

I'm switching to Green Flag :greengrin

You just reminded me of the Peter Kay character in one of the comedy series he did 65bd........class :greengrin

Can't remember the name of the show but it was based around a motorway services, and the RAC type guy was a bitter Scotsman who had split from his cheating wife........but aye, have to say go with Green Flag :agree:

[H18sry]

Maximum rules under Final Salary schemes are 2/3rds of Final Salary not 3/4s.

While individually the Fire Service and NHS staff deal with individual aspects of Road Traffic Accidents, Sudden Deaths, Dealing with violent people. It is something the police have to also do, as well as dealing with the aftermath of crimes, processing and interviewing prisoners, dealing with violent fights, domestic incidents, court security, building files for court, paperwork etc

Plus of all the emergency services, the police are the most visible and probably most disliked. They have to put up with more verbal abuse and physical assault than any of the other emergency services.

There are some working practices and pay practices that could probably do with amending

OK then Jeremy Vine on radio today lied then, well 2/3rd's it is so instead of my 5 year queston lets have it as 6.2 years, who picks up the tab after that, as you avoided the question in the 1st place :confused:

[ArabHibee]

You just reminded me of the Peter Kay character in one of the comedy series he did 65bd........class :greengrin

Can't remember the name of the show but it was based around a motorway services, and the RAC type guy was a bitter Scotsman who had split from his cheating wife........but aye, have to say go with Green Flag :agree:

:hijack:
Alan McClarty (Kay) - A Scottish mechanic who has worked for the RAC before his wife left him and he had a nervous breakdown. He now runs his own breakdown company, "ARC". He is still an unstable character.

Google is your friend. :greengrin

[Removed]

:hijack:
Alan McClarty (Kay) - A Scottish mechanic who has worked for the RAC before his wife left him and he had a nervous breakdown. He now runs his own breakdown company, "ARC". He is still an unstable character.

Google is your friend. :greengrin

You've got one then :wink:

[ArabHibee]

You've got one then :wink:

7246

[Phil D. Rolls]

I see after today's Lord Hutton report that we will have police chasing bairns when they are in their 60's, nurses working longer and harder and the public services in general picking up the tab for the deficit (even though they lie and say it's not the case).

I personally can't wait to see PC Murdoch chasing kids around with his police issue zimmer frame, complete with flashing light and "nee naw" sound effect, can't wait to see Nurse Nightingale take blood whilst lying in the next hospital bed to her patient because her varicose veins are troubling her, and Fireman Sam needing ralgex and codeine for his bad back as he limbers up to tackle the ladders......

Anyone hear Lord Hutton this morning on Five Live when asked about whether MP's pensions have been examined and looked at in the same manner........the guy laughed arrogantly, and then had to find a suitable spade when Nicky Campbell pulled him up........with him then grovelling and saying MP's pensions will be looked at "broadly the same"...........oh aye, we all know a politician's definition of the word "broadly".......a bit like "vaguely" which is a bit like "we are looking after ourselves jack, don't worry about us"

For about half an hour this morning I felt very much like Citizen Smith.......can't wait for all the strikes to happen :aok::coffee: Standstill Britain in 2011...watch this space !

60 year old children? It's time to stop all this GM food IMO. :greengrin


Due to the nature of their work policemen will come into contact with more threatening situations than say nurses but they have the power and tools to defend themselves, which is more than the wee nurse in A&E dealing with the same people.

Very good point, but I would say the police have to deal with it more often. After all, if there is a problem in hospital, it is the police that are called to deal with it.

I think what does get missed, is the psychological stress that nursing inflicts on people who do it. IMO, the pay does not reflect that and health boards pay lip service to trying to prevent it. Ending practices like shifts in 10 day blocks would be a start.

It keeps coming back to the same thing though, people are paid in accordance with the value that society puts on their service. It seems to me that people like to make out they care about the "poor pressurised nurses", but when it comes to paying for them are a little less forthcoming.

You can almost set your watch by the time it takes a politician to mention nurses in any speech about pay. How come they are still banging on about it when they've all had a chance to address it?

IMO, part of the problem lies with nurses themselves, and in particular the gender balance of the profession. It just seems that they can't organise themselves and are happy to play a subservient role.

Maybe nurses enjoy being the poor downtrodden hand maiden. In much the same way that some women moan about how nobody helps them clean the house, yet get very angry if anyone suggests they could help.

I digress.

[Allant1981]

Yip maybe nurses do deserve bettet pay but i worked in a hospiral for 10 years and some of them are lazy sods, the auxilieries do a lot of work for hardly any pay, the domestics handing out food to patients even tho it isnt(wasnt) in their contracts

[Jack]

60 year old children? It's time to stop all this GM food IMO. :greengrin



Very good point, but I would say the police have to deal with it more often. After all, if there is a problem in hospital, it is the police that are called to deal with it.

I think what does get missed, is the psychological stress that nursing inflicts on people who do it. IMO, the pay does not reflect that and health boards pay lip service to trying to prevent it. Ending practices like shifts in 10 day blocks would be a start.

It keeps coming back to the same thing though, people are paid in accordance with the value that society puts on their service. It seems to me that people like to make out they care about the "poor pressurised nurses", but when it comes to paying for them are a little less forthcoming.

You can almost set your watch by the time it takes a politician to mention nurses in any speech about pay. How come they are still banging on about it when they've all had a chance to address it?

IMO, part of the problem lies with nurses themselves, and in particular the gender balance of the profession. It just seems that they can't organise themselves and are happy to play a subservient role.

Maybe nurses enjoy being the poor downtrodden hand maiden. In much the same way that some women moan about how nobody helps them clean the house, yet get very angry if anyone suggests they could help.

I digress.

NO! People, and nurses are no different, are paid as little as the employer can get away with - again recruitment and retention.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yip maybe nurses do deserve bettet pay but i worked in a hospiral for 10 years and some of them are lazy sods, the auxilieries do a lot of work for hardly any pay, the domestics handing out food to patients even tho it isnt(wasnt) in their contracts

Yes and no, some are lazy sods, and some are doing things that the untrained staff don't get. Auxilliaries don't do too badly pay wise, and some can make more than a newly qualified nurse - quite rightly in some cases.


NO! People, and nurses are no different, are paid as little as the employer can get away with - again recruitment and retention.

And as their employer is you and I, and the politicians we elect, there is more than a little hypocrisy in citing nurses as a deserving case for more pay by mouthpieces on TV trying to get people to side with them.

[Killiehibbie]

60 year old children? It's time to stop all this GM food IMO. :greengrin



Very good point, but I would say the police have to deal with it more often. After all, if there is a problem in hospital, it is the police that are called to deal with it.

I think what does get missed, is the psychological stress that nursing inflicts on people who do it. IMO, the pay does not reflect that and health boards pay lip service to trying to prevent it. Ending practices like shifts in 10 day blocks would be a start.

It keeps coming back to the same thing though, people are paid in accordance with the value that society puts on their service. It seems to me that people like to make out they care about the "poor pressurised nurses", but when it comes to paying for them are a little less forthcoming.

You can almost set your watch by the time it takes a politician to mention nurses in any speech about pay. How come they are still banging on about it when they've all had a chance to address it?

IMO, part of the problem lies with nurses themselves, and in particular the gender balance of the profession. It just seems that they can't organise themselves and are happy to play a subservient role.

Maybe nurses enjoy being the poor downtrodden hand maiden. In much the same way that some women moan about how nobody helps them clean the house, yet get very angry if anyone suggests they could help.

I digress.Police are called in after the nurse has been attacked. Police in a threatening situation have their attacker truncheoned, gassed and cuffed before many, if any, blows are taken.

[Betty Boop]

60 year old children? It's time to stop all this GM food IMO. :greengrin



Very good point, but I would say the police have to deal with it more often. After all, if there is a problem in hospital, it is the police that are called to deal with it.

I think what does get missed, is the psychological stress that nursing inflicts on people who do it. IMO, the pay does not reflect that and health boards pay lip service to trying to prevent it. Ending practices like shifts in 10 day blocks would be a start.

It keeps coming back to the same thing though, people are paid in accordance with the value that society puts on their service. It seems to me that people like to make out they care about the "poor pressurised nurses", but when it comes to paying for them are a little less forthcoming.

You can almost set your watch by the time it takes a politician to mention nurses in any speech about pay. How come they are still banging on about it when they've all had a chance to address it?

IMO, part of the problem lies with nurses themselves, and in particular the gender balance of the profession. It just seems that they can't organise themselves and are happy to play a subservient role.

Maybe nurses enjoy being the poor downtrodden hand maiden. In much the same way that some women moan about how nobody helps them clean the house, yet get very angry if anyone suggests they could help.

I digress.

Not me ! I would love a man who helped around the house. Where do you find them ? :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

Not me ! I would love a man who helped around the house. Where do you find them ? :greengrinAt the end of the rainbow.

[Dinkydoo]

Pay disparity in the main IMO is justifiably unfair, but as per what has all been said before in order to attract folk to these positions they need to pay competitive wage - usually with bonuses.

If the market dictates this then there isn't an awful lot we can do about it; life is **** and all that jazz :greengrin

But hey, at least it's Friday :thumbsup:

[Dinkydoo]

Due to the nature of their work policemen will come into contact with more threatening situations than say nurses but they have the power and tools to defend themselves, which is more than the wee nurse in A&E dealing with the same people.

Aye :agree:

NHS staff get mandatory training for things such as Aggression and Violence but it's prety basic.

There was a sickening story in our local standard when I first started working in the NHS (approx 4 years ago) where a female Nurse in one of the wards was put in intensive care after an ex boxer decided to smash her face in with a reception bell in the middle of the night - the guy was apparently quite big in comparisson so there wasn't much she could do about it other than shout for help (they don't issue Nurses with batons as standard equipment :wink:).

[MSK]

Aye :agree:

NHS staff get mandatory training for things such as Aggression and Violence but it's prety basic.
There was a sickening story in our local standard when I first started working in the NHS (approx 4 years ago) where a female Nurse in one of the wards was put in intensive care after an ex boxer decided to smash her face in with a reception bell in the middle of the night - the guy was apparently quite big in comparisson so there wasn't much she could do about it other than shout for help (they don't issue Nurses with batons as standard equipment :wink:).Not all of them do. My Wife is a staff nurse at the ERI & her last "mandatory" training was as a second year student & her training consisted of the bare minimum "breakaway technique" ie -hair pulls & clothes grabs. She deals with extremly aggressive patients which can range from kids to violent adult prisoners. Thankfully the only assaults she has had to deal with up to now have been verbal.

I work with violence & aggression on a daily basis but I get full Scottish prison service (adapted to general services) intense training with mandatory updates every 3 months or sooner depending on the patient. I on the other hand am not as lucky as my Wife as I get assaulted verbally & abusively on an almost daily basis.

Mandatory training in violence & aggression may be a comfort & an aide to some NHS staff but an extra few pound is never gonna its make the job or the service any more attractive.

Cannae wait till im 60...:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

And as their employer is you and I, and the politicians we elect, there is more than a little hypocrisy in citing nurses as a deserving case for more pay by mouthpieces on TV trying to get people to side with them.

So just where does all the extra cash go that has seen the NHS budget grow so dramatically with such small increases in efficiency? Surely a lot of it has gone on increased salaries?

Still with such huge numbers covered by one operation (1.4m NHS workers in England alone) I'm amazed we can afford to pay them what they receive already!!

[Dinkydoo]

Not all of them do. My Wife is a staff nurse at the ERI & her last "mandatory" training was as a second year student & her training consisted of the bare minimum "breakaway technique" ie -hair pulls & clothes grabs. She deals with extremly aggressive patients which can range from kids to violent adult prisoners. Thankfully the only assaults she has had to deal with up to now have been verbal.

I work with violence & aggression on a daily basis but I get full Scottish prison service (adapted to general services) intense training with mandatory updates every 3 months or sooner depending on the patient. I on the other hand am not as lucky as my Wife as I get assaulted verbally & abusively on an almost daily basis.

Mandatory training in violence & aggression may be a comfort & an aide to some NHS staff but an extra few pound is never gonna its make the job or the service any more attractive.

Cannae wait till im 60...:greengrin


Sorry I meant to say NHS D&G staff have to attend V&A training every year - although for folk like me who are classified as "Administration" we only get an online assessment (I completed it within 1 min 25 seconds), which I'm not bothered about but the fact that we have three mental health wards within a half mile radius (one within my building) suggests that the non-clinical staff should get something a bit more than a questionaire.

One of the good things to come out of the situation where the lady was battered by the idiot with a bell is that there is an initiative where NHS D&G work in partnership with the police to ensure that a 'high-visibility' police pressence at DGRI is maintained - I've not heard of a serious V&A incident at DGRI now in ages - and which goes woithout saying all 'old style' reception bells have been removed from NHS D&G properties after the following risk assessment.

God knows what the retirement age will be by the time I get there :boo hoo:

[lapsedhibee]

Sorry I meant to say NHS D&G staff have to attend V&A training every year - although for folk like me who are classified as "Administration" we only get an online assessment (I completed it within 1 min 25 seconds), which I'm not bothered about but the fact that we have three mental health wards within a half mile radius (one within my building) suggests that the non-clinical staff should get something a bit more than a questionaire.

One of the good things to come out of the situation where the lady was battered by the idiot with a bell is that there is an initiative where NHS D&G work in partnership with the police to ensure that a 'high-visibility' police pressence at DGRI is maintained - I've not heard of a serious V&A incident at DGRI now in ages - and which goes woithout saying all 'old style' reception bells have been removed from NHS D&G properties after the following risk assessment.

God knows what the retirement age will be by the time I get there :boo hoo:

No idea what half of these initials mean, but do I understand you to say that because of a single incident where a nutter used a bell to attack a nurse, all similar bells everywhere have been banned? What would have happened if the nutter had used a syringe to attack a member of staff? Or ripped one of the alcohol-handwash dispensers off the wall and used that? :dunno:

[Steve-O]

To stick up for the teachers a bit, it's pretty clear they probably do a bit of 'overtime' during term time. All day they are taking classes (for the most part) so when do people think they plan classes and mark exams/tests etc? Obviously it's mainly in their own time whereas most of us forget about work when we walk out the door at 5pm.

Teachers do get amazing holidays though so I'd say the pay is pretty much fair overall.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Police are called in after the nurse has been attacked. Police in a threatening situation have their attacker truncheoned, gassed and cuffed before many, if any, blows are taken.

I don't know what the protocol is for Police using these, but I'm sure that quite a few of them still end up taking a punch now and then. I remember seeing six police trying to get a guy into the back of a van - he put up a hell of a fight.


Not me ! I would love a man who helped around the house. Where do you find them ? :greengrin

:dunno: Who said we want to help?


Aye :agree:

NHS staff get mandatory training for things such as Aggression and Violence but it's prety basic.

There was a sickening story in our local standard when I first started working in the NHS (approx 4 years ago) where a female Nurse in one of the wards was put in intensive care after an ex boxer decided to smash her face in with a reception bell in the middle of the night - the guy was apparently quite big in comparisson so there wasn't much she could do about it other than shout for help (they don't issue Nurses with batons as standard equipment :wink:).

If the training is mandatory, many places are slow at doing it. A friend of mine has just done a shift in a psychiatric ward, where four staff were left in charge of the ward, none had done Control and Restraint training. The tactics were - if anything kicks off, lock the office door and phone the Police.


So just where does all the extra cash go that has seen the NHS budget grow so dramatically with such small increases in efficiency? Surely a lot of it has gone on increased salaries?

Still with such huge numbers covered by one operation (1.4m NHS workers in England alone) I'm amazed we can afford to pay them what they receive already!!

NHS salaries are transparent, Google "Agenda for Change" and it's all there in black and white.

Such huge numbers are needed because everyone in this country is entitled to free health care. How can we afford not to employ so many?

[MSK]

If the training is mandatory, many places are slow at doing it. A friend of mine has just done a shift in a psychiatric ward, where four staff were left in charge of the ward, none had done Control and Restraint training. The tactics were - if anything kicks off, lock the office door and phone the Police.

Mandatory but at a cost, so much so they will chuck inexperienced staff into wards/wings based on the assumption that they will be working with experienced staff who have done control & restraint. Sadly that is not always the case & it is only gonna be a matter of time before someone is killed or seriously injured because of those tight fisted penny pinching *******s.

Mandatory training costs money but what cost safety ..?..numbers look good on paper but in Psych/LD it is imperative there is a balanced skill mix. I fear it is gonna get a damn site worse before it gets better FR, but until then we are gonna hear of more critical cases as you mention above :agree:

[Dinkydoo]

No idea what half of these initials mean, but do I understand you to say that because of a single incident where a nutter used a bell to attack a nurse, all similar bells everywhere have been banned? What would have happened if the nutter had used a syringe to attack a member of staff? Or ripped one of the alcohol-handwash dispensers off the wall and used that? :dunno:

Sorry, I used the full version of the words before in another post before using initials;

V&A is Violence and Aggression

DGRI is Dumfries and Galloway Royal Infirmary


The difference is that patients aren't supposed to be in possession of a syringe or easily be able to rip the alcohol gel things off the wall and use it as a weapon; where as, all you had to do was walk 10 feet from your bed to find one of those things.

I do understand where you're coming from though; there could have been a number of other things that could have been used that the organisation might not be so ready to ban.

I think the point is that because they were so easy to remove without disrupting the service they just went ahead and did it, since they were probably only really there as a form of 'decor' and didn't really serve much of a purpose.

[Killiehibbie]

I don't know what the protocol is for Police using these, but I'm sure that quite a few of them still end up taking a punch now and then. I remember seeing six police trying to get a guy into the back of a van - he put up a hell of a fight.Not sure about protocol but I did see an amusing incident last night. Policeman gets into struggle with a wee skinny teenager and ends up on ground on top of teenager, policewoman stands flapping her arms then calls for assistance shouting "officer down officer down" it was obvious to all of us watching that all the policeman needed was a little bit of help to cuff his prisoner. Within 2 minutes there was another 10 of them on the scene. Try getting that response when one of us are actually in need of assistance. When you think about it what good was the police woman? She'd be better off employed somewhere else.

[Removed]

Not sure about protocol but I did see an amusing incident last night. Policeman gets into struggle with a wee skinny teenager and ends up on ground on top of teenager, policewoman stands flapping her arms then calls for assistance shouting "officer down officer down" it was obvious to all of us watching that all the policeman needed was a little bit of help to cuff his prisoner. Within 2 minutes there was another 10 of them on the scene. Try getting that response when one of us are actually in need of assistance. When you think about it what good was the police woman? She'd be better off employed somewhere else.

Aye, she should be at home cooking her man's tea :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Mandatory but at a cost, so much so they will chuck inexperienced staff into wards/wings based on the assumption that they will be working with experienced staff who have done control & restraint. Sadly that is not always the case & it is only gonna be a matter of time before someone is killed or seriously injured because of those tight fisted penny pinching *******s.

Mandatory training costs money but what cost safety ..?..numbers look good on paper but in Psych/LD it is imperative there is a balanced skill mix. I fear it is gonna get a damn site worse before it gets better FR, but until then we are gonna hear of more critical cases as you mention above :agree:

Meanwhile, they spend a fortune on infection control in areas where it isn't an issue. And that to me is the crux of the matter, and the real area the public should be scrutinising.

There are a large number of well paid middle managers, who are there by dint of the fact that they were in the right place at the right time. Even worse quite a few are in these positions because they were so incompetent on the wards.

Regardless of how they got there, they should ultimately be the ones who carry the can for this cavalier/kamikaze attitude to safety. However, the way the system works responisibility is delegated all the way down to the staff nurse on the shift.

There's no shortage of well paid jobs in the NHS. All anyone has to do is watch the car parks fill up with sports cars and 4x4s at 9 am when all the clinical staff have been at work for two hours.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Aye, she should be at home cooking her man's tea :agree:

At the very least, she could be learning how the offside rule works. :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Aye, she should be at home cooking her man's tea :agree:


At the very least, she could be learning how the offside rule works. :agree:

With wimmin's advanced multitasking skills it should be no problem to do these at the same time, while ironing.

[RyeSloan]

Meanwhile, they spend a fortune on infection control in areas where it isn't an issue. And that to me is the crux of the matter, and the real area the public should be scrutinising.

There are a large number of well paid middle managers, who are there by dint of the fact that they were in the right place at the right time. Even worse quite a few are in these positions because they were so incompetent on the wards.

Regardless of how they got there, they should ultimately be the ones who carry the can for this cavalier/kamikaze attitude to safety. However, the way the system works responisibility is delegated all the way down to the staff nurse on the shift.

There's no shortage of well paid jobs in the NHS. All anyone has to do is watch the car parks fill up with sports cars and 4x4s at 9 am when all the clinical staff have been at work for two hours.

I hear soo many stories like this about the NHS...makes me even more convinced that the current set up is wasting bucket loads of cash every single day.

I fully support the principle of universal healthcare for all but I'm definitely not convinced we have anything like the best set up to meet this requirement with anything like the efficiency required to allow this laudable aim to be afforded much longer.

[Bookkeeper]

I've no great knowledge on the topic but did the police not sign away the right to strike action? Maybe this was offset with an enhanced rate of pay?

Pretty sure the others still have the right to withdraw their labour if in dispute over pay and conditions.

[IndieHibby]

I put it to you that if it takes you 50-60 hours per week to do your job that you may well be leaning toward incompetent...

On what basis, exactly?