Old Firm Summit

[Sylar]

After all the talk about "summit meetings" and "potential repercussions" following the shameful scenes at Parkhead last week, today marked an announcement that the outcome of the summit was the proviso of £500k to help "tackle the issue of sectarianism".

Maybe it's just me (and I didn't expect much else other than a cop-out really), but this says to me that the authorities have utterly no interest in taking serious steps towards eradicating this type of venom and hatred which arises whenever these 2 poisonous clubs meet :agree:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12670175

[H18sry]

http://news.stv.tv/politics/233524-old-firm-disorder-discussed-at-summit/ :wink:

[Jack]

I really expected something to be positive to be done and for the whole issue to be seriously tackled as a result of this meeting. :agree:





















:faf:

[Beefster]

Where is the £500k coming from? The OF or the taxpayer?

[Jack]

Where is the £500k coming from? The OF or the taxpayer?

Taxpayer, for adverts on toilet walls probably - that will put an end to all this nonsense :agree:

Can you hear them laughing all the way back to the Weege?

[dangermouse]

The next time an OF match descends into utter chaos like the last one, either dock both teams 25 points (unless Hearts lie in third place then they get docked 25 points as well :greengrin) or boot both teams out of the cup competition if it's a cup tie.

Simples.

[Saorsa]

£500,000? that'll be £250,000 each from the bigot brothers will it? not likely :bitchy:


what a loady pish! it's time that **** were hammered, never mind trying tae pass the blame around.

[Sylar]

I got the impression from the article that it was government funded.

It just makes no sense - they're bleating on about social issues of drink and domestic violence, internet spread of "sectarian hatred", licensing laws etc, when it all matters for nothing.

Surely you tackle a cancer at the source?

[Beefster]

Taxpayer, for adverts on toilet walls probably - that will put an end to all this nonsense :agree:

Can you hear them laughing all the way back to the Weege?

Unbelievable. That'll teach the clubs and fans to misbehave.

[Golden Bear]

Whilst serious, we've all seen a lot worse and I can't help feeling that there has been a bit of an over reaction. There must be an election on the horizon methinks.

[Moulin Yarns]

The answer, IMHO is simple.

Most of their fans come from Ireland/Northern Ireland, so in future all OF games are played in either Dublin or Belfast. Sorted. :greengrin

[Barney McGrew]

I've been sitting watching the press conference and end up shaking my head at it and shouting at the TV. Apparently it's all alcohol's and the internet's fault and it's a problem in society and not specifically the OF.

Salmond made one very brief mention of sectarianism, and it wasn't mentioned again after that. It was almost as if they were trying not to mention it. Elephant in the room or what?

You couldn't make it up.

[Paisley Hibby]

Makes you want to weep really. The two OF clubs AND the media make far too much money BECAUSE of the crap that goes with their matches to want to stop any of this. Alex Salmond just wants to be seen to be doing something and putting some money in because there's an election coming - but nothing that will rock the boat really. So the 6 point plan, Joint Action Group and £0.5m of our money is all just pish and wind. The battered wives and other innocent folk that get hurt every time these bigoted institutions meet up are just regarded as collateral damage.

[basehibby]

After all the talk about "summit meetings" and "potential repercussions" following the shameful scenes at Parkhead last week, today marked an announcement that the outcome of the summit was the proviso of £500k to help "tackle the issue of sectarianism".

Maybe it's just me (and I didn't expect much else other than a cop-out really), but this says to me that the authorities have utterly no interest in taking serious steps towards eradicating this type of venom and hatred which arises whenever these 2 poisonous clubs meet :agree:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12670175

So... who the hell is supposed to pay for this £500K package then - it wouldn't by any chance be the two organisations who spent most of the 20th century developing and thriving on a football industry made out of sectarianism and religous bigotry in Scotland would it????
Nah - didn't think so - it's all the rest of us poor suckers who will have to cough up while the OF continue to suck the blood out of our game - ****in ridiculous I say - the OF should be made to stump up ALL of the funding for this initiative out of the profits of their regular bigot-fests.
The Scottish tax payer has enough to pay for cleaning up the mess left by those other blood suckers - the bankers - without having to pay for cleaning up the mess of ignorant backward thinking imbecility stirred up and perpetuated by the OF:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:.

[Saorsa]

I've been sitting watching the press conference and end up shaking my head at it and shouting at the TV. Apparently it's all alcohol's and the internet's fault and it's a problem in society and not specifically the OF.

Salmond made one very brief mention of sectarianism, and it wasn't mentioned again after that. It was almost as if they were trying not to mention it. Elephant in the room or what?

You couldn't make it up.Neither of the OF representatives said what the six point plan was but I'll take a guess. The six points will be pointing the finger at everything and anything but themselves.

[Barney McGrew]

Neither of the OF representatives said what the six point plan was but I'll take a guess. The six points will be pointing the finger at everything and anything but themselves.

From Septic's website:

The two clubs recommended:
• The creation of a stand-alone pan-Scotland police football intelligence unit as part of the ongoing review of police forces in Scotland.
• Greater enforcement of existing legislation to deal with sectarianism and drink related offences.
• The establishment of a task force comprising senior police officers, government representatives and club security personnel to deliver more consistency in policing of football matches across Scotland.
• A detailed academic study into the extent of the linkage of football to violent crime committed domestically and in the community.
• Celtic and Rangers will commit to playing an enhanced role in a partnership approach to encourage responsible drinking.
• A re-enforced code of conduct for players and officials.

Utter bollocks IMO. Not a single mention of either of them taking responsibility to tackle sectarianism at it's root cause at all - but then again why would they, after all it's what keeps them in business and they are the root cause of it in the first place.

[jdships]

I got the impression from the article that it was government funded.

It just makes no sense - they're bleating on about social issues of drink and domestic violence, internet spread of "sectarian hatred", licensing laws etc, when it all matters for nothing.

Surely you tackle a cancer at the source?

:thumbsup: Good post !!
Sad thing is this is not a new phenomena .
I have a friend , well educated member of the legal profession ex pro footballer in English League , now in his 50's who openly admits his "hatred" ( his word) of all things Catholic and that that comes from his NI grandfather's "teaching's " when he was a boy ( his word)
How do we deal with that sort of situation ? :confused:
Anybody who can find an answer to that will win a Nobel Peace prize

Does ones religous beliefs/sexuality matter at the end of the day ? For some it obviously , sadly , does

:crazy:

[Pretty Boy]

Wow.

£500K to tackle a deep rooted sectarian problem that has existed for hundreds of years and is kept alive in the west of Scotland by 2 teams who use it to line their own pockets.

How about withdrawing Police cover for Orange Order marches so they could no longer go ahead, doing likewise with various marches/demos held by 'Republican' groups, play a couple of Old Firm games behind closed doors, when they allow fans back in make them travel to games on designated buses from their own stadium and back again after the game, enlist the help of the Catholic Church in Scotland as well as that of the various Protestant churches to condemn continued sectarian in a show of unity and finally make it clear that any future trouble will lead to points deductions and fines.

There has definitely been an overreaction in some quarters after the last match BUT this kind of pish has gone on for too long and simply been swept under the carpet. If they want to behave like schoolkids then treat them that way IMO.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Who was the guy 2nd from the left who talked about his links with the drinks trade
Should youth football have any links with the drinks industry?

Even if education initiatives should the brands also be given advertising? if it were all about education would they need names fair play if no brand names named tho'

[Paisley Hibby]

Who was the guy 2nd from the left who talked about his links with the drinks trade
Should youth football have any links with the drinks industry?

Even if education initiatives should the brands also be given advertising? if it were all about education would they need names fair play if no brand names named tho'

And given how much of the OF problem is being blamed on alcohol, isn't it ironic that both clubs have Tennets Lager as their shirt sponsor.

[one day maybe...]

Nothing mentioned regarding the ramifications of them failing to behave themselves on future occasions.

No mention of points deducted.
No mention of games behind closed doors.
No media coverage whatsoever, No radio coverage, no tv coverage, No tabloid coverage and a ban on all fans from being within 2 miles of the stadium on the day of the match.
Maybe then would we get rid of the sectretarian bile that spews from them.
Get your finger out SFA..

But I won't hold my breath.

[PeeJay]

If the SFA really wished to make the OF and its fans sit up and take notice surely it only needs to hit them where it hurts: have the next OF game played behind closed doors, and no television broadcast, and if there is still any trouble do the same with the next game and so on until it stops. Seems an easy way to deal with it. Course it all depends on whether they really want to stop it that is ...

[Viva_Palmeiras]

For all the non-Edinburgh residents you may find it unsurprising to hear that the mere presence of the OF in Edinburgh turned an pleasant sunny but a bit gusty day into an overcast dreich rainy day.

[hibbymac]

Lip service, no more. :bitchy:

[ginger_rice]

There are some really valid points coming through in this thread. However I only know of one minister in the Scottish government who is a hibby and as he's the transport minister I doubt that he will be involved in this, I don't even know if he reads this board.

As pointed out though it is an election year and politicians do tend to listen just a tad more to their constituents during campaigning, so it wouldn't harm to write or email your MSP, the justice secretary, the minister for sport and possibly even the first minister. Perhaps if the c4 million Scots who don't support the OF did that then they really would have to do something.

[hibsbollah]

There are some really valid points coming through in this thread. However I only know of one minister in the Scottish government who is a hibby and as he's the transport minister I doubt that he will be involved in this, I don't even know if he reads this board.

As pointed out though it is an election year and politicians do tend to listen just a tad more to their constituents during campaigning, so it wouldn't harm to write or email your MSP, the justice secretary, the minister for sport and possibly even the first minister. Perhaps if the c4 million Scots who don't support the OF did that then they really would have to do something.

Did Iain Gray have anything to say on the subject?

[Beefster]

Did Iain Gray have anything to say on the subject?

I'm not sure that Iain Gray has ever said anything of note. However, like every other politician in Scotland in an election year, he'll go out of his way not to upset a substantial portion of the electorate.

[ginger_rice]

Did Iain Gray have anything to say on the subject?

No idea but an educated guess would be that he didn't have a credible alternative :devil:

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure that Iain Gray has ever said anything of note. However, like every other politician in Scotland in an election year, he'll go out of his way not to upset a substantial portion of the electorate.

I dont particularly like him either. However, his default position is 'disagree with the nats about everything', and bearing in mind hes east coast i thought he might seek to make political capital out of salmonds trouser-dropping to the old firm.

[Westie1875]

So, which players do we send out in the next derby to rile things up, start a fight and get sent off so that we can have an Edinburgh derby summit and get £500k for us and Hearts to spend on improving the situation which will in turn result in more promotion of the match?

Who would win a fight between CC & Jumbo Jim? Riordan v Skacel? Palsson v Black? Murray v Webster? etc....

:devil:

On a serious note, I know it is a big problem but the bill for this should be coming from the old firms own pockets IMO, they are the ones that have turned a blind eye to sectarianism for years and this is their own faults. How about they start by clamping down on the party tunes in the stadium and some of the guff they play over their PAs, that would be a start.

[Frogga]

I don't know why they even bother.

Anyway, I quite enjoy seeing kick the living daylights out of each other.

[Hibs Class]

I thought I heard on the radio that the sfa had given mccoist a 2 game ban but weren't taking any more action against diouf or bougherra. Cannot see anything on the bbc about this though - has there been anything announced?

[Speedway]

Symptoms treated as opposed to cause, as always.

Give me:

£500,000
A gun with plenty ammo.

I'll make sure Sectarianism is a thing of the past in one season.

[heretoday]

I was sickened to see on the tv all these stuffed shirts in their shiny suits sitting about looking important for the cameras. Being seen to be concerned.

As if they could do anything to even scratch the surface of the deep seated behavioural problems that Glasgow and this country has. It's just a joke.

£500,000? Give it to a school or a hospital.

[BEEJ]

From Septic's website:

The two clubs recommended:
• The creation of a stand-alone pan-Scotland police football intelligence unit as part of the ongoing review of police forces in Scotland.
• Greater enforcement of existing legislation to deal with sectarianism and drink related offences.
• The establishment of a task force comprising senior police officers, government representatives and club security personnel to deliver more consistency in policing of football matches across Scotland.
• A detailed academic study into the extent of the linkage of football to violent crime committed domestically and in the community.
• Celtic and Rangers will commit to playing an enhanced role in a partnership approach to encourage responsible drinking.
• A re-enforced code of conduct for players and officials.

Utter bollocks IMO. Not a single mention of either of them taking responsibility to tackle sectarianism at it's root cause at all - but then again why would they, after all it's what keeps them in business and they are the root cause of it in the first place.
What an utter waste of time.

It's not even of sufficient significance to merit the description of 'a sticking plaster'!

[Paisley Hibby]

I was sickened to see on the tv all these stuffed shirts in their shiny suits sitting about looking important for the cameras. Being seen to be concerned.

As if they could do anything to even scratch the surface of the deep seated behavioural problems that Glasgow and this country has. It's just a joke.

£500,000? Give it to a school or a hospital.

Great Post!!:thumbsup:

[Baldy Foghorn]

I was sickened to see on the tv all these stuffed shirts in their shiny suits sitting about looking important for the cameras. Being seen to be concerned.

As if they could do anything to even scratch the surface of the deep seated behavioural problems that Glasgow and this country has. It's just a joke.

£500,000? Give it to a school or a hospital.

Agree with this, far more pressing issues and deserving things to spend taxpayers money on......The two teams knock lumps out of each other, both sets of supporters sing sectarian songs, managers going head to head on touchline, both bringing shame to our beautiful game....Punished no chance, here is 500,000 to sort it out.... You could not make this farce up.... The Scottish parliamentarians should be hung out to dry for this latest debacle imo

[blackpoolhibs]

What's wrong with the police just applying the law, and the SFA applying the rules of the game? £500K washed down the pisser. :bitchy:

[Baldy Foghorn]

What's wrong with the police just applying the law, and the SFA applying the rules of the game? £500K washed down the pisser. :bitchy:

Too simple BH....

Why do that when you can waste half a mill

[blackpoolhibs]

Too simple BH....

Why do that when you can waste half a mill

:agree: Wouldnt matter if they spent £500m, the bigots will still be bigots. Start hitting the clubs harder is the only way but the SFA certainly dont have the balls imo, the police will arrest the erses who beat their wifes or smash a glass in someones face.

Although starting with the clubs, points dropped or banned from the cup will certainly make them think.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I got the impression from the article that it was government funded.

It just makes no sense - they're bleating on about social issues of drink and domestic violence, internet spread of "sectarian hatred", licensing laws etc, when it all matters for nothing.

Surely you tackle a cancer at the source?

Is the source of domestic violence the OF playing? Wouldn't a wife-beater still slap the wife if the OF game was cancelled? Apparently domestic violence goes up at Christmas and Bank Holidays - should they ban them as well?



Whilst serious, we've all seen a lot worse and I can't help feeling that there has been a bit of an over reaction. There must be an election on the horizon methinks.

:agree: That's what this is all about. It's a nonsense - the OF game wasn't that much worse than other games played last weekend.

I don't know why so many are blaming the OF for society's problems. If it had been 0-0 last week with no red cards or incidents there would've still been arrests.

[Sylar]

Is the source of domestic violence the OF playing? Wouldn't a wife-beater still slap the wife if the OF game was cancelled? Apparently domestic violence goes up at Christmas and Bank Holidays - should they ban them as well?


Where did I even allude to that? What a gross misinterpretation of my point.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that domestic abuse only occurs around OF games, but their occurrence does exacerbate the situation.

That is only one aspect of the OF fall-out.

I agree that in terms of the actual game last week was only a little less tame than normal, but better taking action when something is being over-blown than waiting until something REALLY bad happens and it's too late?

[Bad Martini]

Did they no conclude the answer was to get a big, **** off, articulated lorry...drive it aroond the weej with some cant with a big nose shouting "leeeetleeee cheeeldrennnn" ... "I'veee got something niceee littleee cheeeldreeenn", ala Chitty Bang Bang.................as soon as the followers of rasellick dive right in the back faster than ye can say "free giros", they are all driven away, and dumped somewhere utterly empty and void of all humanity where they can colonise... Jupiter, perhaps.

Simples :thumbsup:

[Danderhall Hibs]

Where did I even allude to that? What a gross misinterpretation of my point.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that domestic abuse only occurs around OF games, but their occurrence does exacerbate the situation.

That is only one aspect of the OF fall-out.

I agree that in terms of the actual game last week was only a little less tame than normal, but better taking action when something is being over-blown than waiting until something REALLY bad happens and it's too late?

I quoted you because you started the thread - apologies if I've confused you. BTW Christmas exacerbates domestic violence, should we expect a summit on that?

I'm not really sure what folk were expecting from this summit anyway - it's just Salmond sticking his nose in to something for publicity.

If they're going to have summits when a few guys get sent off and managers have a go at eachother they'll be busy down at the Parliament.

As I said I don't see how the OF players and managers can be blamed for society's problems.

What are the other aspects of the OF fall-out?

[Bad Martini]

BTW Christmas exacerbates domestic violence, should we expect a summit on that?

Doon wi this Christmas malarkey. :grr::grr::grr::rules:
:greengrin

[Fantic]

***** joke that money could have been spent on well needed services. They don't go to church but spout pish about the pope etc.

[Sylar]

What are the other aspects of the OF fall-out?

The extra cost of policing the OF fans, the extra pressures placed on the ambulance services and hospital staff when fight (or worse) victims are brought through the door, the afore-mentioned increase in domestic abuse, the escalation of threats against players/management, just to name a few?

I agree to an extent [with the summit discussion] that external factors such as a binge drinking society prior to these games helps fuel the hatred and disposition to violence and that something needs to be done to address this, but these teams also need to take responsibility for their fanbases and particularly how their representatives (players, managers, coaches) behave, as fiery actions on the pitch create an air of hostility between fans, which, combined with sectarian hatred and alcohol is a recipe for unnecessarily high instances of trouble.

[down the slope]

I heard Doncaster who had been at the meeting saying that playing the fixture midweek or at a time when the risk of drunken violence was less might be an answer but commercial values to the clubs must be maintained , in other words nothing must stop the OF making plenty from the tv companies. This muppet is just a poodle for sky and the OF .

[Frogga]

I heard Doncaster who had been at the meeting saying that playing the fixture midweek or at a time when the risk of drunken violence was less might be an answer but commercial values to the clubs must be maintained , in other words nothing must stop the OF making plenty from the tv companies. This muppet is just a poodle for sky and the OF .

In fairness his job is to maximise the revenue coming into the SPL and unfortunately I'm sure he's recognised that the two in bold are the main source of this revenue.

[BEEJ]

:agree: That's what this is all about. It's a nonsense - the OF game wasn't that much worse than other games played last weekend.
Seriously?! :greengrin Name the other matches.


I don't know why so many are blaming the OF for society's problems. If it had been 0-0 last week with no red cards or incidents there would've still been arrests.
That's not the point.

There is already sectarian tension across great swathes of the West of Scotland - it's like a tinder box waiting for the first excuse to ignite. One would think that the highly-paid professionals at the OF would in those circumstances recognise their responsibility not to behave in such a way as to incite or worsen such antagonism across the city of Glasgow and beyond.

[Sir David Gray]

I can't actually understand why it's the fans who are being targeted, off the back of a match where the main instigators of all the trouble were the players and management teams of both sides.

Neil Lennon acting like a mad man AGAIN on the touchline.

Ally McCoist apparently acting like an immature wee boy trying to wind Lennon up, knowing full well what the end result will be.

Madjid Bougherra manhandling the referee on two occasions, one of the occasions happening when he was sent off.

El Hadji Diouf ignoring the instructions of police and stewards at the end of the game, after being sent off, by going to the Rangers fans in an act of defiance and throwing his shirt into the crowd.

Ok there were 34 arrests within the stadium last Wednesday but there were 60,000 people present so that means that a massive majority who attended the match were completely law abiding people. Apart from anything else, is that figure really all that different from any other Old Firm match?

It just seems to me that this summit has been focused on the behaviour of fans and the wider general public when, in actual fact, the people who should be receiving the bans and the criticism are the players and coaching staff.

To be fair, I'm not sure what Rangers and Celtic can really do about problems related with alcohol or domestic violence etc.

If you're the type of man who is prone to battering your wife, I honestly don't think the Old Firm game being on is going to make you more or less likely to carry out your abuse. If the Old Firm game was scrapped forever tomorrow, you would find other "reasons" or "excuses" to defend your behaviour.

One thing that someone did mention that I totally agree with is that Tennent's lager should not be allowed to sponsor the pair of them. Before that it was Carling that sponsored them and years ago, Rangers were sponsored by McEwan's.

The problems are deep rooted and will not be sorted by one summit that is, to all intents and purposes, a gimmick.

One solution could be to have the kick off time for every Old Firm game at 9.30am i.e. before alcohol can be legally sold. At first glance, that might seem like a really drastic measure but I think you would find that pre-match incidents would be down and the behaviour in the stadium would be much improved as well as the fans would not have the opportunity to be filled with drink.

Obviously that doesn't help the situation in Glasgow and all over the towns and villages in Scotland after the match when people would have practically all day to get themselves drunk and then cause problems but it would hopefully be a start.

The other solution is the scrapping of Roman Catholic schools so that all children, regardless of their background, would attend school together and would end the problems that the question "what school did you go to?" poses.

[Geo_1875]

The summit on the shocking situation surrounding the disgrace that is the Old Firm decides that ALL teams and ALL supporters must be brought into the spotlight and share the blame. What a load of bollox. And the police will target internet bigots. Why? Can't they track down the 50,000 bigotted erseholes that turn up to watch them every week?

[Kaiser1962]

That's not the point.

There is already sectarian tension across great swathes of the West of Scotland - it's like a tinder box waiting for the first excuse to ignite. One would think that the highly-paid professionals at the OF would in those circumstances recognise their responsibility not to behave in such a way as to incite or worsen such antagonism across the city of Glasgow and beyond.

Spot on Beej. Does anyone remember the orange shirts as a tribute to the Dutch? I didnt meet anyone who thought it was anything to do with the Dutch. Or the recent (alluded) to anti Catholic agenda? Ok thats not exactly what was said but all Celtic fans took it as that, as did everyone else. Similar analogies.

The actual cost of all the services that are required following an OF game have been put at £40m for the season. IMO £500k is a token gesture and the helmets in poofy suits are swallowing without even gagging.

If the Polis are looking for one guy in a photo making monkey actions why arent they addressing the sectarian issue? I think we all know the answer to that sadly.

[cwilliamson85]

Why cant the police / stewards just through out anyone who is doing anything sectarianism. That’s how they treat anyone going to Parkhead or Ibrox.

This will show everyone watching how much the attendance would drop from the start to the end of the game.

Or if the game starts to kick off again like it did last week the ref should just pick up the ball and leave the field of play and both teams should be disqualified.

[Septimus]

Next season Celtic should be instructed to play in blue and Rangers in green and white. Both teams should be informed that a continuation of the problems related to their sectarian stances will result in enforced ground sharing. Music played before matches should be of a non partisan nature. Initial mayhem resulting eventually in a blurring of divisions.

Both management teams should be housed in closed areas where they can not be seen by the supporters or media.

All sectarian and pseudo religious schools should be shut down with immediate effect.

No "fans" from outwith a radius of (say) 30 miles should be allowed to attend any OF games.

If all of this looks like nonsense it is not much different from the Old Firm.

Should these measures fail there is always NATO.

[Septimus]

And as an additional thought all income from crowds should be shared between the participating teams. Hit the bigots where it really hurts and bring back a level playing field to Scottish football.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Seriously?! :greengrin Name the other matches.
.

There was a game in League 1 or 2 in England that had a 20 man "brawl" last weekend. I'm yet to hear David Cameron call for a summit though.

Maybe he's waiting until it's high profile enough so he can get some publicity from it?

I thought the summit was so that the players wouldn't get sent off and the managers would stop disagreeing - didn't realise it was about sectarianism. I didn't think Lennon arguing with Mccoist was anything to do with religion! Maybe I'm just naive. :greengrin

[marinello59]

There was a game in League 1 or 2 in England that had a 20 man "brawl" last weekend. I'm yet to hear David Cameron call for a summit though.

Maybe he's waiting until it's high profile enough so he can get some publicity from it?

I thought the summit was so that the players wouldn't get sent off and the managers would stop disagreeing - didn't realise it was about sectarianism. I didn't think Lennon arguing with Mccoist was anything to do with religion! Maybe I'm just naive. :greengrin

Or maybe even a Tory knows how riduculous politicians look when they stick their noses in to football.
Naive? I don't think so. Lennon and McCoist were arguing about a game and nothing else. Similar incidents happen every season elsewhere without the need for high level summits being called. Didn't Craig Brown assault a European manager last year? Mixu riled a few opposition managers up while he was at Hibs. I am pretty sure the Arsenal and Man Utd benches have had a few tasty confrontations over the years as well. Yes the behaviour was bad that night but all sense of proportion seems to have been lost here.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Or maybe even a Tory knows how riduculous politicians look when they stick their noses in to football.
Naive? I don't think so. Lennon and McCoist were arguing about a game and nothing else. Similar incidents happen every season elsewhere without the need for high level summits being called. Didn't Craig Brown assault a European manager last year? Mixu riled a few opposition managers up while he was at Hibs. I am pretty sure the Arsenal and Man Utd benches have had a few tasty confrontations over the years as well. Yes the behaviour was bad that night but all sense of proportion seems to have been lost here.

I'm delighted to be agreeing with you! :greengrin

[marinello59]

I'm delighted to be agreeing with you! :greengrin

It's left me a bit confused. Normal service will be resumed shortly. :greengrin

[WindyMiller]

Did they no conclude the answer was to get a big, **** off, articulated lorry...drive it aroond the weej with some cant with a big nose shouting "leeeetleeee cheeeldrennnn" ... "I'veee got something niceee littleee cheeeldreeenn", ala Chitty Bang Bang.................as soon as the followers of rasellick dive right in the back faster than ye can say "free giros", they are all driven away, and dumped somewhere utterly empty and void of all humanity where they can colonise... Jupiter, perhaps.

Simples :thumbsup:

They tried that years ago BM, we now have Cumbernauld.

[jdships]

What's wrong with the police just applying the law, and the SFA applying the rules of the game? £500K washed down the pisser. :bitchy:

:top marks
How is that simple solutions are often just passed over ?
:confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolutely pathetic. Throwing money at them is like pouring petrol on the fire. They should be taking it out of their pockets instead. Why do we stand for this **** over and over again?

[truehibernian]

I just sound archaic nowadays, but the fact of the matter is that Scottish society is just far too wishy washy at beaurocratic level.

Alcohol and drugs and the scourge of Scottish society.......that often fuels the underlying bigotry and sectarianism, aggravates a vast majority of domestic abuse cases no doubt, and all in all, has made this country a far far poorer state on many levels.

We are a nation that now seems to tolerate the previously intolerable, and thanks to government guidelines, legal challenges, human rights legislation being utterly abused to the point where common sense is now not that common........we are now discussing issues that really, the police and legal system should be hammering.

This morning the chairman of the police federation sounded incredulous when the BBC radio presenter suggested that perhaps players and managers could be arrested or charged for breach of the peace and incitement. Why so incredulous......would a police officer walk on by a couple arguing til they were red in the cheeks on a Friday night outside the Omni ? Do the police now arrest and charge by occupation ?

The Scottish Govt need to start being a government, hitting the bigots hard, sentencing people properly, none of this "convicted and given 10 years, out in 3" nonsense. Deal with alcohol and drugs properly, look at licensing laws and come down hard on those that flaunt it.......and if there are not enough prison spaces......build some more, instead of needless trams, quangos, parliament buildings and s**** !

Or you could always be really archaic and bring back an element of national service :greengrin

On a purely footballing level, the easy easy way to deal with the OF is this.........."Mr Lennon, Mr Smith......for the behaviour of your players and your backroom team, we at the SPL are docking the clubs 10 points......of course you can appeal, however if the appeal is lost, we dock you more.........goodbye now"......they (just as Hibs and other clubs do) have a duty to behave appropriately, within the context of an emotive sport.......they breached that by a long stretch and lost control of their players........punish by points and watch the behaviour improve. Just don't be hasty doing it seeing as where Hearts are in the league.....you can start next season :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

On a purely footballing level, the easy easy way to deal with the OF is this.........."Mr Lennon, Mr Smith......for the behaviour of your players and your backroom team, we at the SPL are docking the clubs 10 points......of course you can appeal, however if the appeal is lost, we dock you more.........goodbye now"......they (just as Hibs and other clubs do) have a duty to behave appropriately, within the context of an emotive sport.......they breached that by a long stretch and lost control of their players........punish by points and watch the behaviour improve. Just don't be hasty doing it seeing as where Hearts are in the league.....you can start next season :greengrin

Docking 10 points alone will not be the answer, as the OFGTF will finish more than 10 points ahead of everyone else, and it therefore won't matter a jot to either of them if they both get a few points deducted.

Stocks and a good supply of rotten tomatoes would be my preferred option.

[blackpoolhibs]

Or maybe even a Tory knows how riduculous politicians look when they stick their noses in to football.
Naive? I don't think so. Lennon and McCoist were arguing about a game and nothing else. Similar incidents happen every season elsewhere without the need for high level summits being called. Didn't Craig Brown assault a European manager last year? Mixu riled a few opposition managers up while he was at Hibs. I am pretty sure the Arsenal and Man Utd benches have had a few tasty confrontations over the years as well. Yes the behaviour was bad that night but all sense of proportion seems to have been lost here.

Spot on, if the people in charge of the teams the SFA, and the police who police the ground did their jobs correctly, none of this needed to happen yesterday. Its just another case of these two cancerous clubs getting special treatment, when in fact all thats needed is harder punishment from the relevant authorities.

The SFA have not got the balls to fight these two clubs, and until such times as they grow a pair, we will be in exactly the same position we are today, in 1 2 3 4 and 5 years time. Lip service is all thats been served, with a cost to all of us.

We all know they get special treatment from the ref's, the ref's have even told us they refferee that game differently to other games. Now we have special treatment for them off the field, until we are all treated the same, nothing will change.

If that old firm game had been an Edinburgh derby, there would be no summit, just heavy fines and big suspensions meated out very quickly after the game. The reason being the SFA dont fear us.

The tail is wagging the dog again.:grr: And they wonder why fans are turning away from Scottish football?

[JimBHibees]

Why dont the SFA grow a set and start fining the clubs for unacceptable songs. The only time IMO Rangers in particular started taking notice was when UEFA started fining them for some of the songs their fans sing. Since UEFA handed it over to the SFA again the lack of backbone from Peat, Smith etc has meant some of the more dubious songs are back on the playlist again.

I appreciate it is a smaller issue than some of the nonsense that goes along with this game however IMO it was a positive step at the time shame it has been allowed to regress.

[JimBHibees]

Spot on, if the people in charge of the teams the SFA, and the police who police the ground did their jobs correctly, none of this needed to happen yesterday. Its just another case of these two cancerous clubs getting special treatment, when in fact all thats needed is harder punishment from the relevant authorities.

The SFA have not got the balls to fight these two clubs, and until such times as they grow a pair, we will be in exactly the same position we are today, in 1 2 3 4 and 5 years time. Lip service is all thats been served, with a cost to all of us.

We all know they get special treatment from the ref's, the ref's have even told us they refferee that game differently to other games. Now we have special treatment for them off the field, until we are all treated the same, nothing will change.

If that old firm game had been an Edinburgh derby, there would be no summit, just heavy fines and big suspensions meated out very quickly after the game. The reason being the SFA dont fear us.

The tail is wagging the dog again.:grr: And they wonder why fans are turning away from Scottish football?

Completely agree. Why has their been no action on guys like Bougherra stopping Murray raising the red card for example.

[truehibernian]

Completely agree. Why has their been no action on guys like Bougherra stopping Murray raising the red card for example.

I think that is being heard in a separate discipinary hearing Jim.....the summit was put together by Strathclyde Police about the wider OF issue and the effects on crime.

I could be wrong though.

[heretoday]

The whole thing will be chip paper in no time at all and next year we'll probably do it all over again!

There is nothing we can do about it. Nothing.

[Saorsa]

The whole thing will be chip paper in no time at all and next year we'll probably do it all over again!

There is nothing we can do about it. Nothing.Mair like there's nae real will and naebody that has the baws tae do anything about it and too many OF lackeys and sycophants in the places that matter.

[StevieC]

Apparently domestic violence goes up at Christmas and Bank Holidays - should they ban them as well?

Christmas costs a bloody fortune, I'm all for banning it.

Humbug.

:greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

Why dont the SFA grow a set and start fining the clubs for unacceptable songs. The only time IMO Rangers in particular started taking notice was when UEFA started fining them for some of the songs their fans sing. Since UEFA handed it over to the SFA again the lack of backbone from Peat, Smith etc has meant some of the more dubious songs are back on the playlist again.

I appreciate it is a smaller issue than some of the nonsense that goes along with this game however IMO it was a positive step at the time shame it has been allowed to regress.

Because Rantic have a high level of influence within the SFA and SPL (both real and imagined).

A lot of people have made the comment that politicians and the police should stay out of football, which would ordinarily be correct. The point is that the SFA, SPL and the clubs themselves have clearly shown that they are incapable of resolving their own problems or at least enforcing their own rules. The ill-discipline of the OF is now having demonstrable effects on society, which is why the state has to become involved.

Hopefully this summit acts as an effective "warning shot" and that their behaviour improves. If it doesn't they can't say that they weren't warned if more drastic action is taken.

[down the slope]

Recently Richard Gough wrote that the players that were fined the last time there was player riot at the OF game ended up with a criminal records and do you know he went on to say that the players involved could not take their children to disneyworld in America for ten years ! imagine that , these guys seem to live in a dreamworld and maybe if they had to go back to a Glasgow scheme after the game instead of Bothwell they might have a different outlook on their actions.

[Joe Baker II]

Tom English is hilarious on this in the Scotsman today with police, SFA and politicians getting a good piss-take, worth a read though do not think one can access on line.

[Joe Baker II]

I can't actually understand why it's the fans who are being targeted, off the back of a match where the main instigators of all the trouble were the players and management teams of both sides.

Neil Lennon acting like a mad man AGAIN on the touchline.

Ally McCoist apparently acting like an immature wee boy trying to wind Lennon up, knowing full well what the end result will be.

Madjid Bougherra manhandling the referee on two occasions, one of the occasions happening when he was sent off.

El Hadji Diouf ignoring the instructions of police and stewards at the end of the game, after being sent off, by going to the Rangers fans in an act of defiance and throwing his shirt into the crowd.

Ok there were 34 arrests within the stadium last Wednesday but there were 60,000 people present so that means that a massive majority who attended the match were completely law abiding people. Apart from anything else, is that figure really all that different from any other Old Firm match?

It just seems to me that this summit has been focused on the behaviour of fans and the wider general public when, in actual fact, the people who should be receiving the bans and the criticism are the players and coaching staff.

To be fair, I'm not sure what Rangers and Celtic can really do about problems related with alcohol or domestic violence etc.

If you're the type of man who is prone to battering your wife, I honestly don't think the Old Firm game being on is going to make you more or less likely to carry out your abuse. If the Old Firm game was scrapped forever tomorrow, you would find other "reasons" or "excuses" to defend your behaviour.

One thing that someone did mention that I totally agree with is that Tennent's lager should not be allowed to sponsor the pair of them. Before that it was Carling that sponsored them and years ago, Rangers were sponsored by McEwan's.

The problems are deep rooted and will not be sorted by one summit that is, to all intents and purposes, a gimmick.

One solution could be to have the kick off time for every Old Firm game at 9.30am i.e. before alcohol can be legally sold. At first glance, that might seem like a really drastic measure but I think you would find that pre-match incidents would be down and the behaviour in the stadium would be much improved as well as the fans would not have the opportunity to be filled with drink.

Obviously that doesn't help the situation in Glasgow and all over the towns and villages in Scotland after the match when people would have practically all day to get themselves drunk and then cause problems but it would hopefully be a start.

The other solution is the scrapping of Roman Catholic schools so that all children, regardless of their background, would attend school together and would end the problems that the question "what school did you go to?" poses.

I normally disagree with a lot of your posts FH but this is an excellent post. Spot on about fans who go to games who will doubtless bear the brunt of any intitatives as will be an easier target. Although I do disagree about earlier kick off times - 12 kick offs as they are at moment are an open invite to all day drinking and are a part of the problem -it albeit may relate to your point re shirt sponsorship.

[dangermouse]

The idea of docking points when sectarian songs are clearly belted out is a good one especially if the points docked went to the opposition as these songs tend to be sung by the travelling support. Hibs v Rangers and we hear a rendition of "The Sash" while getting humped by the Huns and despite the result the three points stay at Easter Road. (We'd want a 10 team league if that happened :greengrin)

[--------]

I can't actually understand why it's the fans who are being targeted, off the back of a match where the main instigators of all the trouble were the players and management teams of both sides.

Neil Lennon acting like a mad man AGAIN on the touchline.

Ally McCoist apparently acting like an immature wee boy trying to wind Lennon up, knowing full well what the end result will be.

Madjid Bougherra manhandling the referee on two occasions, one of the occasions happening when he was sent off.

El Hadji Diouf ignoring the instructions of police and stewards at the end of the game, after being sent off, by going to the Rangers fans in an act of defiance and throwing his shirt into the crowd.

Ok there were 34 arrests within the stadium last Wednesday but there were 60,000 people present so that means that a massive majority who attended the match were completely law abiding people. Apart from anything else, is that figure really all that different from any other Old Firm match?

It just seems to me that this summit has been focused on the behaviour of fans and the wider general public when, in actual fact, the people who should be receiving the bans and the criticism are the players and coaching staff.

To be fair, I'm not sure what Rangers and Celtic can really do about problems related with alcohol or domestic violence etc.

If you're the type of man who is prone to battering your wife, I honestly don't think the Old Firm game being on is going to make you more or less likely to carry out your abuse. If the Old Firm game was scrapped forever tomorrow, you would find other "reasons" or "excuses" to defend your behaviour.

One thing that someone did mention that I totally agree with is that Tennent's lager should not be allowed to sponsor the pair of them. Before that it was Carling that sponsored them and years ago, Rangers were sponsored by McEwan's.

The problems are deep rooted and will not be sorted by one summit that is, to all intents and purposes, a gimmick.

One solution could be to have the kick off time for every Old Firm game at 9.30am i.e. before alcohol can be legally sold. At first glance, that might seem like a really drastic measure but I think you would find that pre-match incidents would be down and the behaviour in the stadium would be much improved as well as the fans would not have the opportunity to be filled with drink.

Obviously that doesn't help the situation in Glasgow and all over the towns and villages in Scotland after the match when people would have practically all day to get themselves drunk and then cause problems but it would hopefully be a start.

The other solution is the scrapping of Roman Catholic schools so that all children, regardless of their background, would attend school together and would end the problems that the question "what school did you go to?" poses.



:agree:

Rangers and Celtic can modify the behaviour of their fans by modifying the behaviour of their employees and the corporate culture of their respective football clubs. The only way they'll be persuaded to do so, however, is if the sort of behaviour witnessed at that game is punished by suspensions and fines for the players, and touchline bans for the coaching staff. And disciplinary proceedings against ANY employee or office-bearer who joins in or encourages that behaviour. Up to guys like John Reid.

This won't change things overnight, but by moderating the behaviour of the people directly concerned in the game - the players and coaching staff - and by demanding higher standards of behaviour from everyone associated with the two clubs, they can at least show an example to the people who go along to the games to spectate - who, as you so rightly point out, did actually behave themselves fairly well on the night in question.

I also agree whole-heartedly with your point about RC schools. I would also suggest that a stricter control of what happens at Orange Walks and Republican marches and similar occasions would be helpful - the walks/marches themselves can be orderly and well-run (if you like that sort of thing), but a lot of disruption and disorder can go on around the periphery.

But I can't see any politician ever grasping the nettle of RC schools (or any other faith-based schools paid for from the public purse) - too many votes to be lost, too much ground to be handed to the opposition.

[Joe Baker II]

The idea of docking points when sectarian songs are clearly belted out is a good one especially if the points docked went to the opposition as these songs tend to be sung by the travelling support. Hibs v Rangers and we hear a rendition of "The Sash" while getting humped by the Huns and despite the result the three points stay at Easter Road. (We'd want a 10 team league if that happened :greengrin)

The Sash is not a sectarian song and I think you will find this has been legally accepted. Though there is a problem with the minority of Hibs fans who think it is or want to choose to be offended - but I do not think it merits a points sanction!

[marinello59]

The Sash is not a sectarian song and I think you will find this has been legally accepted. Though there is a problem with the minority of Hibs fans who think it is or want to choose to be offended - but I do not think it merits a points sanction!

Correct. The Sash doesn't attack followers of other faiths so is not classed as being sectarian. Annoying hearing them singing it (as it usually means we are getting beaten by them) but not really offensive. It's quote a jaunty wee tune as well proving that the devil may indeed have all the best music.

[Removed]

Correct. The Sash doesn't attack followers of other faiths so is not classed as being sectarian. Annoying hearing them singing it (as it usually means we are getting beaten by them) but not really offensive.

Is the sash on any UEFA banned list or is it ok for them to sing as long as they don't add the FTP at the end ? :dunno:

[PeeJay]

The Sash is not a sectarian song and I think you will find this has been legally accepted. Though there is a problem with the minority of Hibs fans who think it is or want to choose to be offended - but I do not think it merits a points sanction!

"And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore."

I'm confused: a song celebrating the followers of one religious sect's victory over the followers of another religious sect is NOT sectarian - and this has been legally accepted?:confused:

[Jack]

Docking 10 points alone will not be the answer, as the OFGTF will finish more than 10 points ahead of everyone else, and it therefore won't matter a jot to either of them if they both get a few points deducted.

Stocks and a good supply of rotten tomatoes would be my preferred option.

How often to they play each other?

40 points would make a difference :agree:

[Sir David Gray]

Is the sash on any UEFA banned list or is it ok for them to sing as long as they don't add the FTP at the end ? :dunno:


"And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore."

I'm confused: a song celebrating the followers of one religious sect's victory over the followers of another religious sect is NOT sectarian - and this has been legally accepted?:confused:

I might have imagined this but I'm sure an explanation was made a few years ago on why singing The Sash was allowed.

I think the explanation was along the lines of, The Sash is a pro-Protestant song, as opposed to being anti-Roman Catholic, and is therefore ok.

I may have just made that up but I do recall something along those lines.


I normally disagree with a lot of your posts FH but this is an excellent post. Spot on about fans who go to games who will doubtless bear the brunt of any intitatives as will be an easier target. Although I do disagree about earlier kick off times - 12 kick offs as they are at moment are an open invite to all day drinking and are a part of the problem -it albeit may relate to your point re shirt sponsorship.

Who are you and what have you done with the real Joe Baker II? :greengrin

I'm sure normal service will be resumed ASAP. :agree:

[Liberal Hibby]

I don't think I've been more angry about anything else that wastes half a mill of precious public money than wee Eck's contribution to the OF summit (sorry whitewash).

I've even blogged about it (http://livingonwords.blogspot.com/2011/03/scotlands-old-firm-get-yet-more.html)

[Moulin Yarns]

And Dave Weir takes the piss today

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/39Old-Firm-games-behind-closed.6731468.jp

'Old Firm games behind closed doors? We may as well shut down the league'


When will they realise there are 12 teams in the league???

[PeeJay]

I might have imagined this but I'm sure an explanation was made a few years ago on why singing The Sash was allowed.

I think the explanation was along the lines of, The Sash is a pro-Protestant song, as opposed to being anti-Roman Catholic, and is therefore ok.

I may have just made that up but I do recall something along those lines.


"An explanation?" I find that difficult to believe somehow. It's a sectarian song according to the dictionary as far as I can see ... so it should probably be banned if sectarian songs are prohibited that is.

sectarian adj 1 referring, relating or belonging to a sect. 2 having, showing or caused by hostility towards those outside one's own group or belonging to a particular group or sect • sectarian violence. noun a member of a sect, especially a bigoted person. sectarianism noun loyalty or excessive attachment to a particular sect or party.

[Barney McGrew]

When will they realise there are 12 teams in the league???

They do.

They just expect us to know our place though, and thank the heavens above that we are allowed to grace the same pitch as them a couple of times each year.

[lapsedhibee]

And Dave Weir takes the piss today

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/39Old-Firm-games-behind-closed.6731468.jp

'Old Firm games behind closed doors? We may as well shut down the league'

Weir is becoming/has become the ultimate objectionable Hun. I find him considerably more distasteful than Diouf.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Re. domestic violence: it was reported there were 40 arrests for this (I think in Strathclyde) for this following the last game. There were 37 the previous Wednesday. I think the answer is in how the law treat this crime, if we really care about reducing it.

I think a lot of this brouhaha has been generated by the police in a bid to protect them from cuts to their service. A lot of play has been made on the impact on the NHS, but I don't think there has been similair pressure from them to stop the game.

I also think it is a big joke for the OF to blame society when the main focus for sectarian violence in Scotland is their games.

[Beefster]

"An explanation?" I find that difficult to believe somehow. It's a sectarian song according to the dictionary as far as I can see ... so it should probably be banned if sectarian songs are prohibited that is.

sectarian adj 1 referring, relating or belonging to a sect. 2 having, showing or caused by hostility towards those outside one's own group or belonging to a particular group or sect • sectarian violence. noun a member of a sect, especially a bigoted person. sectarianism noun loyalty or excessive attachment to a particular sect or party.

I can't believe that I'm defending The Sash but using your logic, Flower of Scotland is xenophobic and/or racist.

If we concentrate on nonsense like The Sash, the real problems are ignored.

[PeeJay]

I can't believe that I'm defending The Sash but using your logic, Flower of Scotland is xenophobic and/or racist.

If we concentrate on nonsense like The Sash, the real problems are ignored.

Not sure, how does professing that "The Sash" is not sectarian contribute to the problem of solving sectarianism? :confused: Perhaps the root of the real problem lies in such denial?


You may be sort of right about that Flower of Scotland song... :rolleyes:

BTW, why is there no Hibs game on Saturday????

[jdships]

If one looks at the root of the problem it is obvious it stems simply from people of one religeous faith dislking those of another - for whatever reason. !!!
That has been encouraged by extreme factions over the years and while Rangers/Celtic FC claim to have "crossed the divide" by signing players of opposite faiths the underlying take by both clubs leans towards sectarianism.
The allowing of banners and singing of sectarian songs proves that plus you only have to visit either ground to see further evidence within the buildings.
What is the answer ?
I haven't a clue
It is so deeply entrenched in "Scottish folklore " and the " let the punters have what they want " attitude by both clubs certainly doesn't help.
As for Alex " Egoman" Salmond this is surely just an exercise in " being seen to be doing something" - which will lead where ?

Great deal of window dressing going on here methinks which those at the top obviously hope will divert attention away from the root causes. :confused:

I would add religeon plays no part in my life whatsoever and from that standpoint I see a great deal of hypocricy in and feel a great deal of sadness coming from these events .- but that is just my opinion :greengrin

:rolleyes:

[JimBHibees]

I can't believe that I'm defending The Sash but using your logic, Flower of Scotland is xenophobic and/or racist.

If we concentrate on nonsense like The Sash, the real problems are ignored.

Agree, Sash isnt sectarian.

Hello, Hello though is if sung to the original words and was conspicuous by its absence when UEFA were monitoring songs etc a few years back now it is back in the gift of the spineless SFA it has reared its ugly head. Even the big team were signing the full version with gusto at ER in the last derby.

[JimBHibees]

:agree:

Rangers and Celtic can modify the behaviour of their fans by modifying the behaviour of their employees and the corporate culture of their respective football clubs. The only way they'll be persuaded to do so, however, is if the sort of behaviour witnessed at that game is punished by suspensions and fines for the players, and touchline bans for the coaching staff. And disciplinary proceedings against ANY employee or office-bearer who joins in or encourages that behaviour. Up to guys like John Reid.

This won't change things overnight, but by moderating the behaviour of the people directly concerned in the game - the players and coaching staff - and by demanding higher standards of behaviour from everyone associated with the two clubs, they can at least show an example to the people who go along to the games to spectate - who, as you so rightly point out, did actually behave themselves fairly well on the night in question.

I also agree whole-heartedly with your point about RC schools. I would also suggest that a stricter control of what happens at Orange Walks and Republican marches and similar occasions would be helpful - the walks/marches themselves can be orderly and well-run (if you like that sort of thing), but a lot of disruption and disorder can go on around the periphery.

But I can't see any politician ever grasping the nettle of RC schools (or any other faith-based schools paid for from the public purse) - too many votes to be lost, too much ground to be handed to the opposition.

Do you not think that is a convenient excuse for people who are bigotted anyway though? If they werent there would there not be some other excuse used.

It has got to be said although my kids do go to an RC school and cover all elements of the education, I personally wouldnt really have an issue if the religious aspect was taken away from schools as personally think it should be a private family matter rather than an educational one.

[machibby]

Anymore trouble from them and I think they should forced to play in each others strips until the nonsense stops :idea:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anymore trouble from them and I think they should forced to play in each others strips until the nonsense stops :idea:

http://thesun.mobi/;m=is;f=jpg;h=191;k=9AcXIjCJN0tBZ0bRJ7nS0g;q=100;w =326/it%3atagaro/X9HyQAQ1WpkcQs095Yu02g.jpg

It's a crazy idea, but you might be onto something.

[WindyMiller]

A very good piece in the Mercury, IMO.

http://sport.caledonianmercury.com/2011/03/07/opinion-old-firm-acrimony-is-a-game-of-two-halves/001073

[--------]

Do you not think that is a convenient excuse for people who are bigotted anyway though? If they werent there would there not be some other excuse used.

It has got to be said although my kids do go to an RC school and cover all elements of the education, I personally wouldnt really have an issue if the religious aspect was taken away from schools as personally think it should be a private family matter rather than an educational one.


You won't be surprised if I say that I have no problem with a religious element in a school's culture provided the wishes and beliefs of the families are respected.

Different schools provide another additional label for folks to lay on one another, IMO. A kid goes to St Aloysius, he supports Celtic, and when his granny died her funeral was in St Mary Magdalene - he must be a 'pape', right?

It's a matter of imprinting people as 'different'.

Mix up the categories, and some people get very confused - like the guys in the Caldera who STILL (after nearly 6 years) cannot get their heads around the fact that the Presbyterian minister (whose grandparents, btw, lived in Duke Street, Leith, and Restalrig Road, just up from the Links, and who has family members who played for the club) should support a 'catholic' team like Hibs.

My real objection to the two stream education system we have in Scotland is that the duplication of posts and buildings is seriously uneconomical. Our local primaries have a total of just over 200 pupils between them; the duplication of office-staff, class-teachers and auxiliaries, plus the fact that we have two head teachers and deputy heads paid at a much higher scale, means we have no dedicated music teacher, PE teacher, art teacher, learning-support teachers. It also leads at times to totally unnecessary stresses and strains in the community.

As does, btw, the existence of the LOI; the proximity of an Ancient Order of Hibernians club over in Newarthill doesn't help either.

Plague on both their houses.

[JimBHibees]

You won't be surprised if I say that I have no problem with a religious element in a school's culture provided the wishes and beliefs of the families are respected.

Different schools provide another additional label for folks to lay on one another, IMO. A kid goes to St Aloysius, he supports Celtic, and when his granny died her funeral was in St Mary Magdalene - he must be a 'pape', right?

It's a matter of imprinting people as 'different'.

Mix up the categories, and some people get very confused - like the guys in the Caldera who STILL (after nearly 6 years) cannot get their heads around the fact that the Presbyterian minister (whose grandparents, btw, lived in Duke Street, Leith, and Restalrig Road, just up from the Links, and who has family members who played for the club) should support a 'catholic' team like Hibs.

My real objection to the two stream education system we have in Scotland is that the duplication of posts and buildings is seriously uneconomical. Our local primaries have a total of just over 200 pupils between them; the duplication of office-staff, class-teachers and auxiliaries, plus the fact that we have two head teachers and deputy heads paid at a much higher scale, means we have no dedicated music teacher, PE teacher, art teacher, learning-support teachers. It also leads at times to totally unnecessary stresses and strains in the community.

As does, btw, the existence of the LOI; the proximity of an Ancient Order of Hibernians club over in Newarthill doesn't help either.

Plague on both their houses.

While I agree it does make it I suppose easier to label it isnt as simple as saying because some kid goes to an RC school he or his family will be catholic. There are many kids in my childrens school who arent catholic but have chosen to send their kids to that school for whatever reason.

IMO people who are so jaundiced as to treat people differently because of the school they went to or a religion their family practices (or not) would be finding other reasons to create a them and us mentality. Personally not altogether sure removing the schooling issue would create much difference especially when Old firm games were on. People with a propensity to violent, drunken, bigoted and yobbish behaviour arent suddenly going to be reciting poetry if RC schools were removed. :greengrin

Dont disagree regarding the economical issues at all and as I said previously wouldnt have an issue if it changed however I'd imagine the wailing of teeth would be unattractive in the extreme. The sharing of campuses in some of the newly built schools is an interesting point where specialist teachers could be shared.

Bottom line is we are an incredibly small country and the amount of time, energy, money, resources spent on this supposed divide is incredibly self destructive.

[Sir David Gray]

You won't be surprised if I say that I have no problem with a religious element in a school's culture provided the wishes and beliefs of the families are respected.

Different schools provide another additional label for folks to lay on one another, IMO. A kid goes to St Aloysius, he supports Celtic, and when his granny died her funeral was in St Mary Magdalene - he must be a 'pape', right?

It's a matter of imprinting people as 'different'.

Mix up the categories, and some people get very confused - like the guys in the Caldera who STILL (after nearly 6 years) cannot get their heads around the fact that the Presbyterian minister (whose grandparents, btw, lived in Duke Street, Leith, and Restalrig Road, just up from the Links, and who has family members who played for the club) should support a 'catholic' team like Hibs.

My real objection to the two stream education system we have in Scotland is that the duplication of posts and buildings is seriously uneconomical. Our local primaries have a total of just over 200 pupils between them; the duplication of office-staff, class-teachers and auxiliaries, plus the fact that we have two head teachers and deputy heads paid at a much higher scale, means we have no dedicated music teacher, PE teacher, art teacher, learning-support teachers. It also leads at times to totally unnecessary stresses and strains in the community.

As does, btw, the existence of the LOI; the proximity of an Ancient Order of Hibernians club over in Newarthill doesn't help either.

Plague on both their houses.

:agree: I have had exactly the same problems, ever since I was in primary school. I come from an area that is very Rangers-minded and in my primary and secondary schools, the vast majority of football fans didn't support Falkirk, they supported Rangers.

I've had literally dozens of people come up to me and ask if I am a Catholic, purely because I support Hibs and they actually believe that I must prefer Celtic over Rangers, because of Hibs' roots.

When I tell them that I am Church of Scotland and that I couldn't care less who wins an Old Firm match, they can't fathom that out.

Fortunately I've never really experienced the out and out abuse that my brother has received on nights out in Falkirk by people who know that he's a Hibs fan and also when he wears his Hibs top when getting the bus to uni. He often has to put up with the usual "eff off ya fenian so-and-so" or other similar taunts.

I honestly don't see how that kind of mindset will ever be changed in various parts of Scotland.

[lapsedhibee]

I honestly don't see how that kind of mindset will ever be changed in various parts of Scotland.
Carpet bombing. :agree:

[Paisley Hibby]

Don't often agree with him but IMO Michael Kelly get's it right re this week's political, OF and SFA/SPL posturing. Blaming the police for starting the 1980 riot is a bit rich though! The wee lambs couldn't be blamed for kicking the sh*t out of each other because the police were not there to stop them?http://sport.scotsman.com/celticfc/Michael-Kelly-Old-Firm-summit.6731352.jp

[marinello59]

Don't often agree with him but IMO Michael Kelly get's it right re this week's political, OF and SFA/SPL posturing. Blaming the police for starting the 1980 riot is a bit rich though! The wee lambs couldn't be blamed for kicking the sh*t out of each other because the police were not there to stop them?http://sport.scotsman.com/celticfc/Michael-Kelly-Old-Firm-summit.6731352.jp

It's complete and utter bull. I was there that afternoon and the police could have done nothing to stop the sheer number of people that jumped the fences.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Carpet bombing. :agree:

:greengrin


It's complete and utter bull. I was there that afternoon and the police could have done nothing to stop the sheer number of people that jumped the fences.

IIRC, watching on TV, the Celtic fans came onto the pitch to celebrate with their players when they brought the cup up to their end of the ground. It took a minute or so for the Huns to register that security was lax. They then started to climb the barriers (and no doubt come back into the ground), and charge up the pitch.

If that initial trickle of Celtic fans had been stopped, then the momentum of more of them coming on the pitch wouldn't have happened. In turn, the Huns would have had nothing to attack. It could all have been stopped by police, in the ground, doing what they were paid for.

IMO, Kelly (ex Labour provost of Scotland's biggest toilet) has an agenda against Salmond. He is right though to question why this particular OF match has attracted so much attention, and so much empty rhetoric.

[marinello59]

:greengrin



IIRC, watching on TV, the Celtic fans came onto the pitch to celebrate with their players when they brought the cup up to their end of the ground. It took a minute or so for the Huns to register that security was lax. They then started to climb the barriers (and no doubt come back into the ground), and charge up the pitch.

If that initial trickle of Celtic fans had been stopped, then the momentum of more of them coming on the pitch wouldn't have happened. In turn, the Huns would have had nothing to attack. It could all have been stopped by police, in the ground, doing what they were paid for.

IMO, Kelly (ex Labour provost of Scotland's biggest toilet) has an agenda against Salmond. He is right though to question why this particular OF match has attracted so much attention, and so much empty rhetoric.

That is pretty much what happened but it was more than a trickle. It was the speed that events moved at though that have me convinced the Police could have done little to stop the mass invasion from the Ranger End which in turn motivated even more of the lesser green followers to pile on to the pitch. Remember the fence around Hampden at that time? If the police were lax it may have been in relying on the barrier to slow things down to a manageable level but when that many people want to get at each other for a punch up there is little they could have done.

[Bostonhibby]

Probably geting together to decide how they can both get the SFA back into line and dancing to their tune again. They need to get back to business as usual as soon as possible, theres songs to be sung.

[--------]

That is pretty much what happened but it was more than a trickle. It was the speed that events moved at though that have me convinced the Police could have done little to stop the mass invasion from the Ranger End which in turn motivated even more of the lesser green followers to pile on to the pitch. Remember the fence around Hampden at that time? If the police were lax it may have been in relying on the barrier to slow things down to a manageable level but when that many people want to get at each other for a punch up there is little they could have done.


:agree: In 1980 IIRC Hampden was a terracing bowl with one main stand to the south. That, and the low fence, allowed the fans who wanted onto the pitch to move very quickly - nowadays with seated stands it's a lot easier to control a crowd.

As for the game at Parkhead, the problem in the stadium was the aggressive attitudes of the players and coaching staff of both clubs. THAT's something the clubs CAN address. If the players and technical staff approach a game in a way that stirs up hatred and resentment among the spectators, they need to be disciplined. Two- and four- game touchline bans for selected individuals don't hack it, IMO.

Club employees behave in a way that inflames the emotions of the fans in the stadium. The fans then carry those emotions out of the stadium into the streets, back to their homes. I really don't see how Kelly can seriously lay that on the police.

kelly has close links to Celtic. This is yet another example of Celtic people putting the blame on everyone else and refusing to take responsibility for their own poisonous sectarian beliefs and attitudes.

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree: I have had exactly the same problems, ever since I was in primary school. I come from an area that is very Rangers-minded and in my primary and secondary schools, the vast majority of football fans didn't support Falkirk, they supported Rangers.

I've had literally dozens of people come up to me and ask if I am a Catholic, purely because I support Hibs and they actually believe that I must prefer Celtic over Rangers, because of Hibs' roots.

When I tell them that I am Church of Scotland and that I couldn't care less who wins an Old Firm match, they can't fathom that out.

Fortunately I've never really experienced the out and out abuse that my brother has received on nights out in Falkirk by people who know that he's a Hibs fan and also when he wears his Hibs top when getting the bus to uni. He often has to put up with the usual "eff off ya fenian so-and-so" or other similar taunts.

I honestly don't see how that kind of mindset will ever be changed in various parts of Scotland.

I have a similar tale.

I went to Stockbridge Primary School at the time, and attended St. Stephens (Chuch of Scotland) Sundy School.

As we were waiting outside for our parents one of my classmates (a bully) from school and Sunday School pushed me up against the wall and asked the question


"Are you a Protestant or a Catholic"

As I was only 9 or 10 at the time I didn't understand what he was on about, but more importantly, neither did he, obviously.

I have been told he went on to become a hairdresser :rolleyes: