Tram

[Jack]

Anyone still think this was the right choice for Edinburgh and its citizens?

[bighairyfaeleith]

nope, terrible idea. All we actually needed was a link between the airport and the rail line so people could get a train into the city centre.

trouble is that would not have benefited the councils bus company!!!

[Hibs Class]

Was never the right choice.

[Mibbes Aye]

While the implementation has appeared farcical, the original business case was valid IMO.

North Edinburgh was where residential growth would take place. West Edinburgh was where employment growth would take place. Link both to the centre with a transit system that won't create gridlock or add to carbon emissions.

The recession and the current UK government have ensured that growth is going to take far longer than expected but if and when it does happen, it will present us with the same challenges that the trams were meant to address.

[Ritchie]

Another sham of a project which has turned out to be more of a joke than the parliment building.....

next up.... the new forth crossing :rolleyes:

[easty]

Another sham of a project which has turned out to be more of a joke than the parliment building.....

next up.... the new forth crossing :rolleyes:

Does anyone have any doubt that the new Forth crossing will go way over budget? At least it won't be a surprise when it's cost three times as much and taken twice as long to build.

I actually liked the idea of the trams, but there's no way I can say it's been a good idea now. So badly managed it's unreal.

[speedy_gonzales]

Admittedly I was an advocat at the start for trams. Not now.
I took part in the various forums and consultations that were held(regardless of what the naysayers shout, there WAS consultation).
Alas, the contracts were poorly administered and managed.
With hindsight we could have/should have ploughed all the money into an efficient cheap public transport system, hud 'oan, we had that with LRT?!?
Maybe we should have ran with the idea of congestion charging:agree:

[hibsbollah]

While the implementation has appeared farcical, the original business case was valid IMO.

North Edinburgh was where residential growth would take place. West Edinburgh was where employment growth would take place. Link both to the centre with a transit system that won't create gridlock or add to carbon emissions.

The recession and the current UK government have ensured that growth is going to take far longer than expected but if and when it does happen, it will present us with the same challenges that the trams were meant to address.

Agree completely.

[Marabou Stork]

They're a pain in the arse now, but I'm convinced that I'll absolutely love them when they're finished.

[Ritchie]

They're a pain in the arse now, but I'm convinced that I'll absolutely love them when they're finished.

Surely you mean 'if they' ......

[Hibs Class]

While the implementation has appeared farcical, the original business case was valid IMO.

North Edinburgh was where residential growth would take place. West Edinburgh was where employment growth would take place. Link both to the centre with a transit system that won't create gridlock or add to carbon emissions.

The recession and the current UK government have ensured that growth is going to take far longer than expected but if and when it does happen, it will present us with the same challenges that the trams were meant to address.


Agree completely.

I think the business requirement was correct, but routing people through an already congested city centre by tram using an infrastructure that needed to be built from scratch (before which a huge amount of preparatory utilities work had to be done) was neither a timely nor cost effective approach. Environmentally friendly buses which took a more direct route would have been the sensible option. That would have been cheaper and they would be running already.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think the business requirement was correct, but routing people through an already congested city centre by tram using an infrastructure that needed to be built from scratch (before which a huge amount of preparatory utilities work had to be done) was neither a timely nor cost effective approach. Environmentally friendly buses which took a more direct route would have been the sensible option. That would have been cheaper and they would be running already.

Would buses not just add to the gridlock though?

Think it's also important to note that this wasn't about direct routes, about shipping people from Granton to the Gyle. The idea was strategic even if the implementation has been lacklustre.

While there was projected growth by about 20,000 houses in North Edinburgh, and 250,000 sq metres of office growth at Edinburgh Park, the two obviously don't just feed each other. The business case linked these areas directly, but also linked them both to the existing bus and rail networks and their existing hubs at Haymarket and the east end of Princes St/top of the Walk. That makes sense - it's not as simple as saying "create 10,000 jobs at the Gyle, build houses for 10,000 workers at Granton, one services the other".

[Speedy]

Anyone still think this was the right choice for Edinburgh and its citizens?

What tram? :greengrin

Seriously though, what's the latest with them?

[Dashing Bob S]

Still think its a great, and probably inevitable idea, due to the business, environmental and efficiency arguments touched on above.

The 'buses are better than trams' line is a bit like the 'the old east is better than the new east' one - arrant nonsense.

What you can't take into account is lousy project management. It's the concept that's at fault, just the execution. And for that we have to blame that irredeemably useless shower of pompous, self-serving ham shankers who run our local authority.

[bighairyfaeleith]

What happens when the road with the tramlines start to suffer from potholes, how do you re-lay the road without stopping the trams from running?

[lapsedhibee]

What happens when the road with the tramlines start to suffer from potholes, how do you re-lay the road without stopping the trams from running?

Do it at night time? :dunno:

[bighairyfaeleith]

Do it at night time? :dunno:

aye cos they are just that quick:greengrin:wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

nope, terrible idea. All we actually needed was a link between the airport and the rail line so people could get a train into the city centre.

trouble is that would not have benefited the councils bus company!!!

That would help visitors, but the people of the city have to get around as well.

For me, the problem with the tram project is that it was commissioned by numpties, as evidenced by the way the contractor has stitched them up with the contract they signed. I think it is a sad indictment on the quality of our democracy, that we aren't bringing these oafs to account.

[PeeJay]

What happens when the road with the tramlines start to suffer from potholes, how do you re-lay the road without stopping the trams from running?


Mainland Europe has trams all over the place - they do not suffer from pothole problems: why would this be the case in Edinburgh? :confused:

[Beefster]

The trams, in theory, were a great idea.

As usual in Scotland, in practice, a major public capital project was mismanaged to the point of sheer incompetence. In the end, we'll end up with an unsatisfactory fudge that costs way more than the original budget yet comes in with a vastly reduced scale and years late.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Mainland Europe has trams all over the place - they do not suffer from pothole problems: why would this be the case in Edinburgh? :confused:

I don't know, I am actually curious as to how they will handle it. I know they moved all the pipes etc so they didn't have to dig up the roads. The problem as I see it is in Edinburgh there is only one line. In other cities each street has has a line and trams could run on another line if needed. potholes happen in our city a lot, cars,lorries and buses will still be driving on the same roads as the trams so it will surely happen.

There is a probably a solution but I just haven't heard what it will be?

[bighairyfaeleith]

That would help visitors, but the people of the city have to get around as well.

For me, the problem with the tram project is that it was commissioned by numpties, as evidenced by the way the contractor has stitched them up with the contract they signed. I think it is a sad indictment on the quality of our democracy, that we aren't bringing these oafs to account.

But the people of the city got around fine before the trams, a tram which travels one route through edinburgh is not exactly going to help a lot of people, an investment in rail would have been far better. Lots of good things have been done for Edinburgh's transport links in recent years like park and rides but the tram is definitely not one of them and I wouldn't be surprised if it never actually goes live in Edinburgh. I certainly do not wish to spend another penny of taxpayers money on it.

Your right about the contract shambles though, the councils legal team has never been any good so to give them a major project like this was asking for trouble, we should have outsourced the legal side of things as well.

[J-C]

Good idea but just not for Edinburgh, we already have one of the best bus srvices in the country and with Edinburgh being a fairly small city trams are just a no no. There is a train line that runs alongside the old Turnhouse part of the airport, all that was needed was a small station similar to Edinburgh Park and a shuttle bus service linking it to the airport like they have in Luton.
This is the problems you get when a bunch of councillors who all used to be normal everyday people, are all allowed to spend millions of pounds and sign multi million pound contracts, I would've loved to have been in the coucil chambers when these meetings were taking place.

[Hibs Class]

Good idea but just not for Edinburgh, we already have one of the best bus srvices in the country and with Edinburgh being a fairly small city trams are just a no no. There is a train line that runs alongside the old Turnhouse part of the airport, all that was needed was a small station similar to Edinburgh Park and a shuttle bus service linking it to the airport like they have in Luton.
This is the problems you get when a bunch of councillors who all used to be normal everyday people, are all allowed to spend millions of pounds and sign multi million pound contracts, I would've loved to have been in the coucil chambers when these meetings were taking place.

I have been in the chambers during council meetings and they are farcical. Everyone wants to speak but no-one says anything apart from politically motivated statements, many of which are economic with the truth, at best. It is despairing to see just how ineffectual our councillors are.

[Woody1985]

I don't know, I am actually curious as to how they will handle it. I know they moved all the pipes etc so they didn't have to dig up the roads. The problem as I see it is in Edinburgh there is only one line. In other cities each street has has a line and trams could run on another line if needed. potholes happen in our city a lot, cars,lorries and buses will still be driving on the same roads as the trams so it will surely happen.

There is a probably a solution but I just haven't heard what it will be?

Page 4 of today's news will give you a clue. A section of road will be closed with diversions to inspect and repair botched work.

A councillor has said it's good that they're going back to work which indicates improved relations with the contractor. First of all, he's a deputy councillor he should KNOW if relations have improved or not.

Secondly, it's not good they're going back to work. They're going back to work because they made a mess of the road surfacing in the first place.

On a slight tangent, I hate how TIE was set up, this 'company' or group were set up to have a clear lack of accountability at the council if anything went wrong.

You couldn't make this **** up.

[J-C]

I have been in the chambers during council meetings and they are farcical. Everyone wants to speak but no-one says anything apart from politically motivated statements, many of which are economic with the truth, at best. It is despairing to see just how ineffectual our councillors are.


I always thought councillors were motivated to enhance the community they lived in but even they seem to be politically motivated nowadays. I've always been an SNP voter when the main election comes around but have voted Lib-Dem for council elections because I vote for the person who I think will best serve my area in the council, Mr Gorrie served us very well here for years before he went to the Scottish parliament.

Although lawyers are used to go over all contracts given out, it's finally down to the council who gets these contracts, how can say an ex cabbie/rubbish collector/cleaner etc be savvie enough to hand out multi million pound contracts.

[Hibs Class]

I always thought councillors were motivated to enhance the community they lived in but even they seem to be politically motivated nowadays. I've always been an SNP voter when the main election comes around but have voted Lib-Dem for council elections because I vote for the person who I think will best serve my area in the council, Mr Gorrie served us very well here for years before he went to the Scottish parliament.

Although lawyers are used to go over all contracts given out, it's finally down to the council who gets these contracts, how can say an ex cabbie/rubbish collector/cleaner etc be savvie enough to hand out multi million pound contracts.

JC - not sure if you're Gyle or Almond, but Grubb, Dawe and Aldridge (all libdem) and Keir (snp) all voted against local preference when they sent the bulldozers into Drumbrae Primary School. They all cited the "greater good" & expressed regret. When seeking to be elected they all talk about what they'll do for the local area, but when elected (sometimes to their own surprise!) any integrity they had was replaced by an urge to toe the party line and vote as they are told.

[Sergio sledge]

I don't know, I am actually curious as to how they will handle it. I know they moved all the pipes etc so they didn't have to dig up the roads. The problem as I see it is in Edinburgh there is only one line. In other cities each street has has a line and trams could run on another line if needed. potholes happen in our city a lot, cars,lorries and buses will still be driving on the same roads as the trams so it will surely happen.

There is a probably a solution but I just haven't heard what it will be?

There's only 1 "line," but there's two sets of tracks, so if they need to repair the road surface at one of the tracks they will just put the tram onto the other track for the short section requiring repairs.

Trams are great, once they are running, everyone will be delighted with them I'm sure of it.

The contractors and whoever appointed them have properly messed up though!

[Woody1985]

There's only 1 "line," but there's two sets of tracks, so if they need to repair the road surface at one of the tracks they will just put the tram onto the other track for the short section requiring repairs.

Trams are great, once they are running, everyone will be delighted with them I'm sure of it.

The contractors and whoever appointed them have properly messed up though!

How are they going to get the tram to the other side for these small sections?

I'm guessing they'll fix the roads overnight, probably at an extortionate rate.

[Sergio sledge]

How are they going to get the tram to the other side for these small sections?

I'm guessing they'll fix the roads overnight, probably at an extortionate rate.

They'll have points sections like on railway lines. This is what they did in Nottingham anyway.

You are probably right that they will fix them at night, but this is no different from most of the minor works in cities on the roads just now, unless they are in the middle of a residential area.

[Hainan Hibs]

I'm glad they got the go ahead as it is just another prime example of why the North British Labour Party is unelectable.

[Woody1985]

They'll have points sections like on railway lines. This is what they did in Nottingham anyway.

You are probably right that they will fix them at night, but this is no different from most of the minor works in cities on the roads just now, unless they are in the middle of a residential area.

Have you seen any these point sections? Are they planned? Will they be built if they are planned?

I don't think I've seen any of the cross over sections in princes st. I guess to add them in you'd need a different piece of rail which would mean existing parts would need to be dug up.

[bighairyfaeleith]

There's only 1 "line," but there's two sets of tracks, so if they need to repair the road surface at one of the tracks they will just put the tram onto the other track for the short section requiring repairs.

Trams are great, once they are running, everyone will be delighted with them I'm sure of it.

The contractors and whoever appointed them have properly messed up though!

That would make sense, except for two things, what about the tram coming in the other direction?, also I haven't seen any crossover point been built yet, however I haven't seen much built yet:greengrin

Your solution makes sense though, lets hope they have some sort of similar plan in place.

[The_Exile]

TBH we all know who's fault this is, if Gramo hadn't sat in a bathtub full of baked beans halting the tram works they'd have been finished by now :agree:

[J-C]

interesting reading here

http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/tag/bilfinger-berger/


http://leith.org.uk/index.php?view=article&catid=14%3Aweb-links&id=330%3Abilfinger-berger-beset-by-problems&option=com_content&Itemid=25


http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Tram-firm-drops-legal-action.6618257.jp

[--------]

This was one of the daftest and stupidest decisions ever made on behalf of Edinburgh.

If the city had spent half of the money they've wasted on this rubbish on improving bus services and repairing street surfaces and providing pay-and-ride facilities the work would already be done and the transport infrastructure of the city would have been much improved.

It's a nice continental gravy-train for the Lab-Lib councillors on the committee to get their snouts in. It should be cancelled NOW.

[One Day Soon]

I'm glad they got the go ahead as it is just another prime example of why the North British Labour Party is unelectable.

I do hope you are looking forward to opposition after May and life without Mr Salmond at the helm.

Incidentally is there any particular reason why people would vote for a Party that wants Scottish independence to run our own army, navy and economy when that same party can't even keep the M8 open when it snows?

Still, having won power for the first time ever in your history I'm sure the ONE thing the SNP will do is make sure that there's a referendum on independence at some point in the four years in power.........no? At least put the idea to a vote in Parliament then......no? Not even put it to a vote? Dearie, dearie me.

[One Day Soon]

This was one of the daftest and stupidest decisions ever made on behalf of Edinburgh.

If the city had spent half of the money they've wasted on this rubbish on improving bus services and repairing street surfaces and providing pay-and-ride facilities the work would already be done and the transport infrastructure of the city would have been much improved.

It's a nice continental gravy-train for the Lab-Lib councillors on the committee to get their snouts in. It should be cancelled NOW.

Down to your usual standards on political matters. The first part makes no sense and the second part is about as financially daft as its possible to be.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Down to your usual standards on political matters. The first part makes no sense and the second part is about as financially daft as its possible to be.

So how much more money do you think we should spend to complete the project then?

[Woody1985]

I do hope you are looking forward to opposition after May and life without Mr Salmond at the helm.

Incidentally is there any particular reason why people would vote for a Party that wants Scottish independence to run our own army, navy and economy when that same party can't even keep the M8 open when it snows?

Still, having won power for the first time ever in your history I'm sure the ONE thing the SNP will do is make sure that there's a referendum on independence at some point in the four years in power.........no? At least put the idea to a vote in Parliament then......no? Not even put it to a vote? Dearie, dearie me.

It doesn't really interest me whose in charge at this point in my life but there's no point in them putting it forward because it will simply get knocked back when the other parties stick together. They're like a bunch of bairns.

[J-C]

Down to your usual standards on political matters. The first part makes no sense and the second part is about as financially daft as its possible to be.


So far approx £200 million spent and wildly over budget, forecast shows final cost may be near the £700 million mark and you think scrapping it now is daft, are you sure. The majority of the £200m was used in moving and replacing all the amenities on the route, now these amenities would probably have to been upgraded eventually, so that's money that would've been earmarked at some stage. So by scrapping the Trams now we'll save ourselves around £500m, do we have this amount of money to spend on something we don't really need, most would say no.

Edinburgh is a fairly small city, we have a fantastic bus service and a train line that runs right beside Turnhouse road, the Trams were the previous Labour Government's last goodbye before being kicked out, thanks for that.:confused:

Alex salmond rightly tried to stop this when he took power but unfortunately the contracts were all signed and sealed, he wanted to upgrade the A9 to Inverness, which was far more important than the bloody trams.

[Jones28]

The whole thing has been a farce from the off.

Why did the Council not get Petrie to negotiate the deal?! Now theyre being ripped off by a company who, IMHO, has no intention of finishing what they started. Anyone else seen the cracks all around the tracks on Princes Street? Thats now having to be re-done.

Rip the tracks up, melt them down and make more buses for Sundays please. Sell the trams to Manchester.

[khib70]

So far approx £200 million spent and wildly over budget, forecast shows final cost may be near the £700 million mark and you think scrapping it now is daft, are you sure. The majority of the £200m was used in moving and replacing all the amenities on the route, now these amenities would probably have to been upgraded eventually, so that's money that would've been earmarked at some stage. So by scrapping the Trams now we'll save ourselves around £500m, do we have this amount of money to spend on something we don't really need, most would say no.

Edinburgh is a fairly small city, we have a fantastic bus service and a train line that runs right beside Turnhouse road, the Trams were the previous Labour Government's last goodbye before being kicked out, thanks for that.:confused:

Alex salmond rightly tried to stop this when he took power but unfortunately the contracts were all signed and sealed, he wanted to upgrade the A9 to Inverness, which was far more important than the bloody trams.
:agree:Yup. Another socialist municipal vanity project, along with the absurd and catastrophic waterfront "development" which formed the basis of the "business case" for it.

The only thing more unspeakable than this fiasco is the terrifying prospect of Ian Gray becoming First Minister. He'll probably approve a monorail for Musselburgh.

[easty]

:agree:Yup. Another socialist municipal vanity project, along with the absurd and catastrophic waterfront "development" which formed the basis of the "business case" for it.

The only thing more unspeakable than this fiasco is the terrifying prospect of Ian Gray becoming First Minister. He'll probably approve a monorail for Musselburgh.

That would be a brilliant idea!

Monorail!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw) :not worth

[bighairyfaeleith]

:agree:Yup. Another socialist municipal vanity project, along with the absurd and catastrophic waterfront "development" which formed the basis of the "business case" for it.

The only thing more unspeakable than this fiasco is the terrifying prospect of Ian Gray becoming First Minister. He'll probably approve a monorail for Musselburgh.

It was good enough for springfield:agree:

[easty]

It was good enough for springfield:agree:

Ha! I beat you to it! :wink:

[khib70]

That would be a brilliant idea!

Monorail!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw) :not worth
"What about us brain-dead slobs?"

"You'll all be given well-paid jobs"

Monorail! Monorail! Monorail!

[bighairyfaeleith]

Ha! I beat you to it! :wink:

:doh:

[Calvin]

The only thing more unspeakable than this fiasco is the terrifying prospect of Ian Gray becoming First Minister. He'll probably approve a monorail for Musselburgh.

:panic:

The thought vert of it is enough to drive me to chapping doors and flyering! Iain Gray that is, I have no objection to the MussyMono :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:Yup. Another socialist municipal vanity project, along with the absurd and catastrophic waterfront "development" which formed the basis of the "business case" for it.

The only thing more unspeakable than this fiasco is the terrifying prospect of Ian Gray becoming First Minister. He'll probably approve a monorail for Musselburgh.

So property developers are socialist? I suppose you could be onto something if you take into account the Stalinist architecture, and the fact that these flats are so isolated they could serve as gulags. :greengrin

[Kato]

Would buses not just add to the gridlock though?


What gridlock? Edinburgh isn't rush hour LA. The average traffic jam in Edinburgh lasts 17 minutes, which is lower than any other UK City.

The only need for the trams was for those councillors who wanted a project/trough they could really get their teeth/noses into. The likes of Milligan are still making money from this.

[Woody1985]

The only time I've been stuck in a traffic jam in Edinburgh has been at fort kinnaird on a weekend. The city centre is fine.

[Kato]

The only time I've been stuck in a traffic jam in Edinburgh has been at fort kinnaird on a weekend. The city centre is fine.

Canny see the council running Trams thru Niddrie.

[--------]

So property developers are socialist? I suppose you could be onto something if you take into account the Stalinist architecture, and the fact that these flats are so isolated they could serve as gulags. :greengrin

Put it the other way round, FR.

Not all property developers are socialists, but I know a few socialists who are property developers, and in my neck of the woods Tory, Liberal and Nationalist swine cannae get near the trough for all the Scottish Labour snouts well dug in and gobbling as much as they can, as fast as they can.

The trams were Wee Jakie McConnell's parting gift to the Scottish people. If politicians had to stand as trustees and guarantors for every daft scheme they introduced or voted for, this country would be a lot better run than it is.