Club History (Yam Content)

[1two]

I've always had an intereest in football history and recently read a lot about Scottish Clubs history.

What was surprising was that all the 'Early' clubs (remembering the SFA was formed in 1873) Hearts have no mention in press or documentation prior to August 1875 (The same month Hibs were established 6/8/1875) although there was a hearts cricket team.
Reason i've brought this up is, why are Hearts accepted as being established 1874, when it is not known the date they were created. Is the 1874 a 'one-up' created by some daft yam many years ago? or is this a known fact?

Not looking for petty arguements but would be happy for any residents jambos or in the know hibbys to shed some light on it.
Also would be interested to hear any other clubs 'facts' about there early history.

[HNA8]

here's what the Yams have to say for themselves:

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20061108/1874-1884_2241543_924903


The precise date of the club's formation was never recorded, but as it was during 1874 that the players and members adopted Football Association Rules, this has become the accepted date that the Hearts, as they are popularly known, was established.

There was no mention of Hearts in the newspapers during season 1874-75, but the team was clearly playing as the club immediately appears as a well-established organisation at the commencement of 1875-76. In fact, in August 1875, Heart of Midlothian FC was strong enough to join both the Scottish Football Association and become a founder member of the Edinburgh Football Association.

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/spics/1875-7603.htm goes into more detail - speculation / assumption that Hearts were a "missing" fourth Edinburgh team from reports in 1874/75 (?).

There isn't any firm proof of Hearts' existence before Aug 1875.

[Jonnyboy]

here's what the Yams have to say for themselves:

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20061108/1874-1884_2241543_924903

A cleverly worded if unconvincing argument I'd say. From memory (having read this and not lived through it :greengrin) Hearts came about after they hijacked two other clubs - White Star and St Andrews IIRC. As both were established teams that might explain why they were ready for entry into the league in 1875/76 but were never mentioned by the press beforehand. Do the deluded ones really believe the press would ignore them until 1875/76 if they were so well established?

I think that shows early signs of the conspiracy of Scotsman Publications :greengrin

[NYHibby]

If you are going to quote their website, you could at least be fair and quote the previous paragraph on that page that actually answers his question.


However, in December 1873, the best players of Queens Park FC and Clydesdale FC played an exhibition match at Raimes Park, Bonnington to introduce Football Association Rules to Edinburgh. Among the 200 spectators were a number of the dance hall footballers who then decided to adopt Association Rules during the early months of 1874 and their restructured side was called Heart of Mid-Lothian Football Club after their other favourite pastime.

The precise date of the club's formation was never recorded, but as it was during 1874 that the players and members adopted Football Association Rules, this has become the accepted date that the Hearts, as they are popularly known, was established.

[1two]

here's what the Yams have to say for themselves:

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20061108/1874-1884_2241543_924903

I read that previously number 8.

It basically says "we dinny really ken but it must have been 1874, even though we can only trace our history back to 1875"?

[NYHibby]

My post seems to fit with Jonnyboy's post

[1two]

If you are going to quote their website, you could at least be fair and quote the previous paragraph on that page that actually answers his question.

It does say that but they later admit there is no mention of the club until 1875.
Just seems strange as most clubs can be traced to an actual date!

[HNA8]

If you are going to quote their website, you could at least be fair and quote the previous paragraph on that page that actually answers his question.

Except I did quote it.

:na na:

[Pretty Boy]

The history of many clubs in their infancy are somewhat confusing, a lot of it relies on old press reports, incomplete notes from meetings and other documentation. With Hearts there is some debate over when the 1st match was officially played using the Heart of Midlothian name and how St Andrews and White Star went on to become Heart of Midlothian. Certainly a great number of the players who made up the early Hearts team had been playing together for these other 2 clubs.

The Heart of Midlothian Cricket Club is referenced as early as 1864, whether that had any connection to the football club is debatable but it wasn't uncommon for sports clubs to have teams competing in various sports.

It is probably worth remembering that the original Hibernians club of 1875 went out of business and was reformed as a new Hibernian in 1891 and weren't admitted to the league until 1893.

[NYHibby]

Except I did quote it.

:na na:

Nice edit :wink:

[NthCarolinaHibs]

The history of many clubs in their infancy are somewhat confusing, a lot of it relies on old press reports, incomplete notes from meetings and other documentation. With Hearts there is some debate over when the 1st match was officially played using the Heart of Midlothian name and how St Andrews and White Star went on to become Heart of Midlothian. Certainly a great number of the players who made up the early Hearts team had been playing together for these other 2 clubs.

The Heart of Midlothian Cricket Club is referenced as early as 1864, whether that had any connection to the football club is debatable but it wasn't uncommon for sports clubs to have teams competing in various sports.

It is probably worth remembering that the original Hibernians club of 1875 went out of business and was reformed as a new Hibernian in 1891 and weren't admitted to the league until 1893.Hibs went defunct in May 1891, and were resuscitated in Feb 1893..

[Pretty Boy]

Hibs went defunct in May 1891, and were resuscitated in Feb 1893..

Correct, just realised my mistake and how badly i worded that last post.:embarrass

The wheels were put in motion to reform the club in 1892 but it was indeed 1893 before a game was played using the new name.

[--------]

Here's what the Yams have to say for themselves:

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20061108/1874-1884_2241543_924903




If you scroll down the page a bit, you'll find the stadium featured, too.


There may well have been a bunch of 'dance-hall footballers' (Calum Elliot in there, by any chance?) playing bounce games on the Meadows in 1874, but the real question has to be when the club was incorporated as a club, with a committee, office-bearers, and so on. That's when the club as a club was formed.

It appears they couldn't find anyone who could WRITE to be their club secretary until George Robertson turned up in 1878 - not a lot changes down Gorgie way, does it? :devil:

[lapsedhibee]

We can be certain only that it was sometime between 1856, the end of the Crimean War, and 1880, the start of the Boer Wars. Before the first and after the second of those dates there wouldn't have been enough players to make up a team.

[--------]

Hibs went defunct in May 1891, and were resuscitated in Feb 1893..


I think you'll find that while the club withdrew from competition over that period, the committee continued in existence, working along with a number of other groups to repair the damage done by the formation of Glasgow Celtic. The club as such never went out of existence.

I'm sure Jonnyboy won't mind me quoting him at length - he's the authority on this (after all, he was there! :wink:)...

Under a cloud of mourning following the passing of their founder, the Hibernians had to plan for the challenges ahead and their first gesture was to donate their meagre funds in full to the Committee set up to erect a suitable memorial upon Canon Hannan's grave. No money, no home, not enough players - adversity of the toughest possible kind, but these men of the Hibernians were made of stern stuff. Still, a horrendous decision had to be made on if to continue at a junior level and playing on public parks or to take some time out to regroup and come back to the top level when strong enough. There was no contest really, Hibernians would play at the top level or not at all and so time out was duly taken.

The time out period actually extended to some eighteen months but during that period all connected with Hibernians gave 100% in their efforts to raise the Club from the ashes. The Committee, the CYMS, St. Mary Star of the Sea, Hibernian Swimming Club and of course the supporters all worked together to bring Hibernians back to life.

It was to be the men of St. Mary Star of the Sea who would take this project to resuscitate Hibernians by the scruff of the neck. Aware that former Hibernian Thomas Flood would be leaving Glasgow and the Committee of Celtic to take up employment and residence in Edinburgh, whereupon he would join the Committee of Hibernians, the men of St. Mary Star of the Sea, driven on by the likes of Philip and John Farmer, Charles Perry, Barney Lester and Thomas McCabe laid plans for a new Hibernian Football Club.

In a major departure from the old set up these men decided that a new Hibernian would exist for the benefit of the whole community of Edinburgh and Leith and not, as in the past, solely for the Catholics. The new Club would be run as a business and the team would be open to any player, regardless of religious background as it would be to anyone who wanted to support it. Whilst these men of vision knew their aims would be difficult to achieve they set about the task with ferocious determination, helped enormously by the reaction in Little Ireland where the revolutionary ideas were met with great enthusiasm.

The group dedicated to their task were delighted to receive the full support and backing of Michael Whelahan who was a close friend of Charles Perry and who was willing to accept that this new Hibernian would not sully the memory of the old, just because it was to depart from its original ideals.

It's perfectly in order to speak of an 'old' and a 'new' Hibernian, but if Jonnyboy is right in what he says here (and I dare you to contradict him), the committee never disbanded, supporting groups like the CYMS and St Mary's remained in existence, and the people involved over the two years or so it took to sort things out remained the same.

Hibernian never went out of existence - the committee remained in place working to rebuild the playing side of the club and to make the historic decision to extend the club's supporter base to the whole community in the East of the city and into the Lothians.

I need to be informed about this, but I believe that matches WERE played during the 'time out' John refers to; friendlies aimed at raising funds and keeping the name of the club alive and in public view. I'm sure John will be able to confirm or deny this with authority...

[--------]

We can be certain only that it was sometime between 1856, the end of the Crimean War, and 1880, the start of the Boer Wars. Before the first and after the second of those dates there wouldn't have been enough players to make up a team.


Would they not have been fully occupied in winning those wars for Queen and Country?

And don't forget the Indian Mutiny and the Zulu Wars as well. Those guys were patriots. :devil:

[Kato]

The date of Hearts forming was "estimated" in 1924 by some old jakey Jambo ex-Captain - it was decided that their 50 year anniversary would be celebrated then on his say so as no minutes of meetings or any other paperwork was extant.

There may have two clubs with the name as there is the story that Hearts were formed in Washington Square (which was later renamed Holyrood Square) and there's the Ballroom Dancers story which puts the clubs formation near the Tron.

On another note HFC were only ever called "Hibernians" in the press. As far as I've read the club has always been called Hibernian. Owen Brannigan and Michael Whelahan were involved with Hibs well after 1893 and didn't seem to think it was a new club.

[aberhibsfc]

Possibly Hearts big team propaganda, but I'm sure I read somewhere that when Hibs were seeking membership of the SFA, whilst there was some reluctancy to allow us membership, Hearts supported our induction.

But this could be a case of the Yams re-writting history to make themselves feel more important.

[hibbybrian]

The date of Hearts forming was "estimated" in 1924 by some old jakey Jambo ex-Captain - it was decided that their 50 year anniversary would be celebrated then on his say so as no minutes of meetings or any other paperwork was extant.

A bit of a long winded reply I'm afraid but to get the record as straight as possible, ...

The guy you are referring to was the last Hearts player alive at the time who had played in the first game v Hibernians, a Mr Cochrane, aged 88. His story is in one of 2 books of charting Hearts History, and is used to support Hearts 1st captain (Purdie) who said they were started in 1873. Mr Cochrane stated ...

St Andrews played Hearts and beat them and the following week three Hearts players came to meet with St Andrews and asked to join - they then suggested St Andrews change their name to Heart of Mid-lothian which they agreed to. He goes on to say that the 1st match against Hibs was the following season and Hearts won 3-1.

This would suggest Hearts joined St Andrews in season 1874-1875 and Hearts had started around 1873 to 1874 however

Hearts last record of playing St Andrews was a 2-1 win on 6th May 1876 (Hibs played St Andrews on 28th October 1876) and Hearts final game before disbanding (reported on 26th September 1876) was against Dunfermline on 9th September 1876.

Hibs 1st game against Hearts was a 1-0 defeat on 25th Dec 1875 and the 1st time Hearts won 3-1 was not until 10th March 1883.

The 2nd book relating Hearts History is much closer to the known facts (and accordingly well different from Mr Cochrane's recollections). This version correctly states the timescale for the Hearts disbanding as September 1876 and that Hearts playing staff joined St Andrews but adds "by January 1877 Hearts had re-emerged having absorbed St Andrews and their members"

This version suggests Hearts disbanded - some of their players joined St Andrews - convinced St Andrews to change the name of the team - and somehow Hearts re-emerged having absorbed St Andrews :confused:

As for Tom Purdie's stating Hearts started in 1873, it is well established that the 1st Association game in Edinburgh was an exhibition match held in December 1873 between Queens Park and Clydesdale and in January 1874 3rd ERV became the 1st Association Football club in Edinburgh when they held a trial match between 2 sets of their players. Accordingly whatever Tom Purdie believed the Hearts were, they were not an Association Football team in 1873. Hearts 1st recorded game is against 3rd ERV in August 1875. Heart of Midlothian held a Ninth aniversary reunion celebration in March 1887 :wink:


Possibly Hearts big team propaganda, but I'm sure I read somewhere that when Hibs were seeking membership of the SFA, whilst there was some reluctancy to allow us membership, Hearts supported our induction. But this could be a case of the Yams re-writting history to make themselves feel more important.

Even in those days there was the different SFA and Scottish League to deal with :greengrin

Hibs applied to the SFA for membership in February 1893 and were admitted on the motion of the chairman unanimously. No mention of Hearts here.

They then applied to the Scottish League for inclusion in the then only First Division and were rejected in favour of St Bernards and Dundee in June 1893.

Hibs were then included in a list of teams which were to form the new Second Division in July 1893. No mention of Hearts here. :wink:

[Bostonhibby]

It does say that but they later admit there is no mention of the club until 1875.
Just seems strange as most clubs can be traced to an actual date!

Not existing was probably a tax dodge, all the big clubs were doing it back then.

[Springbank]

We can be certain only that it was sometime between 1856, the end of the Crimean War, and 1880, the start of the Boer Wars. Before the first and after the second of those dates there wouldn't have been enough players to make up a team.

…meanwhile, around about the same time as Hearts patriotic heroes were showing the world what a musket and a good shoo-ing was, those achingly hip, pinko, leftie Hibees were busy doing nothing more useful than emancipating the slaves with the help of Abe "Monkey Heid" Lincoln.

[Jonnyboy]

I think you'll find that while the club withdrew from competition over that period, the committee continued in existence, working along with a number of other groups to repair the damage done by the formation of Glasgow Celtic. The club as such never went out of existence.

I'm sure Jonnyboy won't mind me quoting him at length - he's the authority on this (after all, he was there! :wink:)...

Under a cloud of mourning following the passing of their founder, the Hibernians had to plan for the challenges ahead and their first gesture was to donate their meagre funds in full to the Committee set up to erect a suitable memorial upon Canon Hannan's grave. No money, no home, not enough players - adversity of the toughest possible kind, but these men of the Hibernians were made of stern stuff. Still, a horrendous decision had to be made on if to continue at a junior level and playing on public parks or to take some time out to regroup and come back to the top level when strong enough. There was no contest really, Hibernians would play at the top level or not at all and so time out was duly taken.

The time out period actually extended to some eighteen months but during that period all connected with Hibernians gave 100% in their efforts to raise the Club from the ashes. The Committee, the CYMS, St. Mary Star of the Sea, Hibernian Swimming Club and of course the supporters all worked together to bring Hibernians back to life.

It was to be the men of St. Mary Star of the Sea who would take this project to resuscitate Hibernians by the scruff of the neck. Aware that former Hibernian Thomas Flood would be leaving Glasgow and the Committee of Celtic to take up employment and residence in Edinburgh, whereupon he would join the Committee of Hibernians, the men of St. Mary Star of the Sea, driven on by the likes of Philip and John Farmer, Charles Perry, Barney Lester and Thomas McCabe laid plans for a new Hibernian Football Club.

In a major departure from the old set up these men decided that a new Hibernian would exist for the benefit of the whole community of Edinburgh and Leith and not, as in the past, solely for the Catholics. The new Club would be run as a business and the team would be open to any player, regardless of religious background as it would be to anyone who wanted to support it. Whilst these men of vision knew their aims would be difficult to achieve they set about the task with ferocious determination, helped enormously by the reaction in Little Ireland where the revolutionary ideas were met with great enthusiasm.

The group dedicated to their task were delighted to receive the full support and backing of Michael Whelahan who was a close friend of Charles Perry and who was willing to accept that this new Hibernian would not sully the memory of the old, just because it was to depart from its original ideals.

It's perfectly in order to speak of an 'old' and a 'new' Hibernian, but if Jonnyboy is right in what he says here (and I dare you to contradict him), the committee never disbanded, supporting groups like the CYMS and St Mary's remained in existence, and the people involved over the two years or so it took to sort things out remained the same.

Hibernian never went out of existence - the committee remained in place working to rebuild the playing side of the club and to make the historic decision to extend the club's supporter base to the whole community in the East of the city and into the Lothians.

I need to be informed about this, but I believe that matches WERE played during the 'time out' John refers to; friendlies aimed at raising funds and keeping the name of the club alive and in public view. I'm sure John will be able to confirm or deny this with authority...

Pretty much true Doddie although it was like a succession of bounce games as opposed to anything formal

[Hibrandenburg]

Hearts were a cricket team? That would explain some of the scores we've racked up against them.