Electoral reform

[bighairyfaeleith]

yeah yeah I'm watching newsnight, however

If I hear another lib dem or tory mp on the telly saying we voted for this coalition I'll scream, I voted lib dem, I never voted for what we have, I would NOT have voted for it.

The pretense that this government has a backing from the voters is simply a lie.

Getting onto the voting changes, I strongly dislike this coalition, I hate the way way the lib dems are clinging to some sort of power through it and trying to push through a voting system that allows them to make governments while being the minority party.

I simply no longer trust them.

[One Day Soon]

yeah yeah I'm watching newsnight, however

If I hear another lib dem or tory mp on the telly saying we voted for this coalition I'll scream, I voted lib dem, I never voted for what we have, I would NOT have voted for it.

The pretense that this government has a backing from the voters is simply a lie.

Getting onto the voting changes, I strongly dislike this coalition, I hate the way way the lib dems are clinging to some sort of power through it and trying to push through a voting system that allows them to make governments while being the minority party.

I simply no longer trust them.


It is a shock.

Who would have thought they would turn out to be a bunch of posturing, shameless, vacuous, deceitful, power hungry charlatans with no politics and and a relentless hunger to remain in power at any cost regardless of the consequences?

Now why would a party like that want to change the voting system to one that gives them a much better chance of holding the balance of power in perpetuity completely disproportionate to their support in the country?

[Hibs Class]

It is a shock.

Who would have thought they would turn out to be a bunch of posturing, shameless, vacuous, deceitful, power hungry charlatans with no politics and and a relentless hunger to remain in power at any cost regardless of the consequences?

Now why would a party like that want to change the voting system to one that gives them a much better chance of holding the balance of power in perpetuity completely disproportionate to their support in the country?

25+ years ago when I was at school we looked at the various alternative voting systems and it was the case wth pretty much all that in the UK the big winners would be Liberal, so nothing has really changed. It is quite ironic that they now have some influence and it can be seen how they have used it, because in the referendum instead of people voting for a Liberal utopian vision of "what could be" they will be able to vote for "what is" and I suspect that may well count against Clegg and his self-interest. He'll certainly be less able to sell AV this year than he was able to sell Lib-Dem last year.

[RyeSloan]

It is a shock.

Who would have thought they would turn out to be a bunch of posturing, shameless, vacuous, deceitful, power hungry charlatans with no politics and and a relentless hunger to remain in power at any cost regardless of the consequences?

Now why would a party like that want to change the voting system to one that gives them a much better chance of holding the balance of power in perpetuity completely disproportionate to their support in the country?

You could describe all politicians like that if you wanted...surely the ultimate reason a political part exists is to have the power to influence policy, why would any of the main stream UK parties NOT want to be in power?

The current electoral system is flawed. It is not representative of the number of votes cast in terms of seats awarded and has an inbuilt bias towards Labour....none of that has to do with vacuous Lib Dems.

AV is hardly the panacea to the unfairness of our current system but I for one am pleased that there is finally a chance to debate moving towards a more representative voting system.

[Beefster]

You could describe all politicians like that if you wanted...surely the ultimate reason a political part exists is to have the power to influence policy, why would any of the main stream UK parties NOT want to be in power?

The current electoral system is flawed. It is not representative of the number of votes cast in terms of seats awarded and has an inbuilt bias towards Labour....none of that has to do with vacuous Lib Dems.

AV is hardly the panacea to the unfairness of our current system but I for one am pleased that there is finally a chance to debate moving towards a more representative voting system.

I actually like the current system and having a direct representative in Parliament (although AV wouldn't break that). AFAIK the current bias towards Labour is mainly down to inequitable constituency sizes and the 'overvaluation' of a Scottish and Welsh vote - nothing to do with the actual voting system.

If and when AV happens, we'll likely have a permanent coalition with the Lib Dems - the smallest of the main parties - in perpetual power.

[Leicester Fan]

If I hear another lib dem or tory mp on the telly saying we voted for this coalition I'll scream, I voted lib dem, I never voted for what we have, I would NOT have voted for it.


I never voted for a coalition either. I wanted a proper Tory govt but seeing as you voted for the other bit of the coalition it's nice to know we're on the same side.:greengrin

Just for the record I'll definitely be voting against AV. I reckon this could be one of the smallest voter turnouts on record.

[ancient hibee]

yeah yeah I'm watching newsnight, however

If I hear another lib dem or tory mp on the telly saying we voted for this coalition I'll scream, I voted lib dem, I never voted for what we have, I would NOT have voted for it.

The pretense that this government has a backing from the voters is simply a lie.

Getting onto the voting changes, I strongly dislike this coalition, I hate the way way the lib dems are clinging to some sort of power through it and trying to push through a voting system that allows them to make governments while being the minority party.

I simply no longer trust them.

Well what can we vote for at Holyrood then.It is always going to be a coalition or minority government making inter party deals.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Well what can we vote for at Holyrood then.It is always going to be a coalition or minority government making inter party deals.

not always, however if it is likely to be a coalition then the parties should be honest before the election about what they would do in a coalition, otherwise how can you make an informed vote?

Not one of the parties in the uk election was honest with the voters about what they would do once in power. As far as I'm concerned thats not good enough!

[AgentDaleCooper]

I actually like the current system and having a direct representative in Parliament (although AV wouldn't break that). AFAIK the current bias towards Labour is mainly down to inequitable constituency sizes and the 'overvaluation' of a Scottish and Welsh vote - nothing to do with the actual voting system.

If and when AV happens, we'll likely have a permanent coalition with the Lib Dems - the smallest of the main parties - in perpetual power.

this isn't actually true, as seen here (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/02/labour-majority-seats-2005)

basically, it would just be massively disadvantageous to whichever party was unpopular, be it labour or conservatives - and the lib dems would pick up the scraps. it's a stupid system, and it's bollocks to refer to it as proportional representation - it just creates a bias against the out-of-fashion party.

here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8506306.stm) a decent summary of several past results taking into account the hypothetical AV pollings.

i'm actually all for coalition politics*, it's a myth that it intrinsically produces weak governments - look at the scandanavian countries and germany. they're certainly at the very lest no worse off than we are. i don't think the lib lab coalition in the scottish parliament was particularly weak either, in the sense of getting legislation through. it's the punch and judy nature of westminster that makes such systems not work - which is the very problem its self IMO.

*N.B. but not this coalition

[AgentDaleCooper]

another reason not to vote Yes in the referendum us that it may well mean that at the next general election, the lib dems will avoid the utter trouncing they deserve for entering into the coalition.

[Betty Boop]

If the electoral system is to be reformed, surely the STV system would be a better method, and far more proportional ?

[steakbake]

not always, however if it is likely to be a coalition then the parties should be honest before the election about what they would do in a coalition, otherwise how can you make an informed vote?

Not one of the parties in the uk election was honest with the voters about what they would do once in power. As far as I'm concerned thats not good enough!

I'm not one to stick up for any of them but.... to be fair... they did not know the outcome of the election before it was actually concluded. I don't think that they could have presented any reliable scenarios to the electorate about the make-up of a future government. It's all a bit "if granny had baws, she'd be my grandad...".

At least it only took the Westminster government a few days to sort out what they were going to do as unpopular as that has ultimately become. They've been waiting in Belgium for 240+ days to sort out a coalition.

I would also imagine that things would be considerably worse in the UK if we did have AV or similar and it would keep the LibDems as kingmakers or, on the back of successive unpopular governments, might be the end of them.

In Scotland, I reckon we're heading for another minority government after May 5th. Whether that is the SNP or Labour as the biggest party is still very much up for grabs. However, imagine the LibDems propping up the Tories in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. They really are an example of institutional contradiction from top to bottom.

[ArabHibee]

Anyone know a good website that explains how AV works and the difference to how we vote now?

[Sir David Gray]

Anyone know a good website that explains how AV works and the difference to how we vote now?

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=55

[ancient hibee]

The important thing is you don't have to rate all the candidates-if you only want to vote for one that's fine.

[RyeSloan]

I'm not one to stick up for any of them but.... to be fair... they did not know the outcome of the election before it was actually concluded. I don't think that they could have presented any reliable scenarios to the electorate about the make-up of a future government. It's all a bit "if granny had baws, she'd be my grandad...".

At least it only took the Westminster government a few days to sort out what they were going to do as unpopular as that has ultimately become. They've been waiting in Belgium for 240+ days to sort out a coalition.

I would also imagine that things would be considerably worse in the UK if we did have AV or similar and it would keep the LibDems as kingmakers or, on the back of successive unpopular governments, might be the end of them.

In Scotland, I reckon we're heading for another minority government after May 5th. Whether that is the SNP or Labour as the biggest party is still very much up for grabs. However, imagine the LibDems propping up the Tories in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. They really are an example of institutional contradiction from top to bottom.

Why does all coalitions have to be seen as someone propping up the other? The smaller members may get to see some of their policies enacted or at least have some influence in policy making but this in no way means they are automatically propping up their much larger partner.

As a previous poster has stated there is plenty examples around the world of successful countries that have coalition government at the heart of their politics...why would it be so wrong for Westminster?

I for one quite like coalition politics and it is certainly preferable to large parties having majorities to do with what they like when they haven’t had anything like that support at the polls.....Labour in 2005 had something like 35% of the vote but yet 55% of the seats. That to me is fundamentally wrong and if changing that means more coalition politics then that's fine by me.

[RyeSloan]

not always, however if it is likely to be a coalition then the parties should be honest before the election about what they would do in a coalition, otherwise how can you make an informed vote?

Not one of the parties in the uk election was honest with the voters about what they would do once in power. As far as I'm concerned thats not good enough!

Surely each party has to stand on its own manifesto :confused:

Also the british public sometimes get what they deserve, sadly the electorate are not quite mature enough to take the bad news and will vote for whoever tells them the best story...The tories started the last election by trying to be honest about the scale of government cut back probably required but as soon as they did so Labour (and the others) quickly started to pretend the there was no such need....the polls quickly turned agaisnt the tories and they in turn swiftly changed tune. That didn't change the fact that public finances were a total mess and that substantial pain would be needed to sort them but it did mean no party could be 'honest' without facing a drubbing at the polls!!

[bighairyfaeleith]

Surely each party has to stand on its own manifesto :confused:

Also the british public sometimes get what they deserve, sadly the electorate are not quite mature enough to take the bad news and will vote for whoever tells them the best story...The tories started the last election by trying to be honest about the scale of government cut back probably required but as soon as they did so Labour (and the others) quickly started to pretend the there was no such need....the polls quickly turned agaisnt the tories and they in turn swiftly changed tune. That didn't change the fact that public finances were a total mess and that substantial pain would be needed to sort them but it did mean no party could be 'honest' without facing a drubbing at the polls!!

yes however if coalitions are going to become the norm then they also have to inform the electorate of who they will get into bed with as this tells us as much about there politics as there manifesto does, the lib dems have shown us this and it's something which is going to cause them problems for many years to come.