Salmond on the Tornados

[Doc Holiday]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9368702.stm

Yam first minister sits on the fence over league reconstructions but has some nice things to say about the tornados. Blatant electionering or just admitting what all jambos know to be true? :agree:

[PeeJay]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9368702.stm

Yam first minister sits on the fence over league reconstructions but has some nice things to say about the tornados. Blatant electionering or just admitting what all jambos know to be true? :agree:

Peter Marinello wasn't a Tornado - Salmond says good things about Hibs in the 70s. Good interview I thought.

:flag:

[lucky]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

[Jamesie]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

Absolute nonsense IMHO - he's the most capable politician this country has.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mercer-s-family-disgusted-by-first-minister-s-attack-1.905592

"Wallace is dead and gone now, of course, but I didn't like him either. I didn't like his attitude, I didn't like his politics and I didn't like his attempt to take over Hibernian."

Can't say fairer than that, even if he was pressured into apologising later for his comments.

[Doc Holiday]

Peter Marinello wasn't a Tornado - Salmond says good things about Hibs in the 70s. Good interview I thought.

:flag:

Since we're getting all pernickity marinello left hibs in January 1970 so if he talking about marinello he wasn't talking about hibs in the 70s either :wink:

[One Day Soon]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

I'm not having that.

I don't share his politics at all but a) Mercer's fudness was pretty supreme and b) Salmond is a genuine 'big cat' politician.

Jamesie is wrong though, Darling is our most capable politician. He's just not in the Scottish Parliament.

[KWJ]

I'm not having that.

I don't share his politics at all but a) Mercer's fudness was pretty supreme and b) Salmond is a genuine 'big cat' politician.

Jamesie is wrong though, Darling is our most capable politician. He's just not in the Scottish Parliament.

Darling is a buffoon and I don't like him.

Can live with Salmond even if he is a bit OTT at times. Interesting at least.

[Mibbes Aye]

Darling is a buffoon and I don't like him.

Can live with Salmond even if he is a bit OTT at times. Interesting at least.

Politics is all too often compared (and unfortunately hence sometimes trivialised) to sport, particularly boxing. Nevertheless it can be appropriate....

Darling vs Salmond would be a huge mismatch. They are at completely different weights in terms of where they've 'fought'.

Darling was thrown into the heart of it, when the banks threatened to bring us all down, a global crisis unparalleled, and he was part of the team that dealt with it.

A real risk that the banks would stop working, our cashpoints wouldn't issue cash, our direct debits wouldn't be paid. He was there to fix that.

Salmond had wanted us to copy Iceland and Ireland, IIRC.

[sven nil]

A wee question for all,what would you rather have six numbers on the lottery or alex salmonds heid full of pound coins?

[PeeJay]

Since we're getting all pernickity marinello left hibs in January 1970 so if he talking about marinello he wasn't talking about hibs in the 70s either :wink:

That's a fair point, he left in January - he probably meant the Tornados after all and just couldn't remember who was actually in the team? :greengrin

[offshorehibby]

Hopefully come may well have another term of Salmond with a better majority than that buffoon Gray.

[brog]

Alex Salmond came to Downing St with us as part of Hands Off Hibs campaign, he stood with us against Mercer & for that we should all be grateful. His politics are not my politics but this forum is called Hibs Net so I'll stick to football & thank him for helping ensure we have a club to support, even if at the moment it may appear as if it was all a dastardly plot on his part!!

[Green_one]

Alex Salmond came to Downing St with us as part of Hands Off Hibs campaign, he stood with us against Mercer & for that we should all be grateful. His politics are not my politics but this forum is called Hibs Net so I'll stick to football & thank him for helping ensure we have a club to support, even if at the moment it may appear as if it was all a dastardly plot on his part!!

:agree: He says clearly that he opposed Mercer. That is good enough for me. He has also not tried to bury or reshape the past as many Hearts fans have done to try to make it look like Mercer did us a favour. I like the fact that he frankly supports his team. Just a bad choice that is all.

Salmond - good guy

Mercer - ***%%*&!!!

[CentreLine]

Politics is all too often compared (and unfortunately hence sometimes trivialised) to sport, particularly boxing. Nevertheless it can be appropriate....

Darling vs Salmond would be a huge mismatch. They are at completely different weights in terms of where they've 'fought'.

Darling was thrown into the heart of it, when the banks threatened to bring us all down, a global crisis unparalleled, and he was part of the team that dealt with it.

A real risk that the banks would stop working, our cashpoints wouldn't issue cash, our direct debits wouldn't be paid. He was there to fix that.

Salmond had wanted us to copy Iceland and Ireland, IIRC.

What utter rubbish. Westminster allowed the Scottish banks to go close to the brink before stepping in for political reasons not economic ones. Make no mistake, as an independent country, Scotland would not have been in that mess in the first place. But in the theoretical event that we were, you only have to look at the extraordinary steps Westminster has taken to prop up Irish banks to see what would have happened for an independent Scotland. Westminster has too much wrapped up in Irish banks (and Scottish banks) to be able to walk away from their responsibilities.
As for darling v Salmond. You are right, a complete mismatch, Salmond is streets ahead.

But this is a football forum, so lets drop the politics

[lucky]

Darling v wee Eck massive mismatch. Darling an intelligent economist on the world stage, Wee Eck a fanciful dreamer. Remember the arc of prosperity, Ireland, Iceland and Scotland. It was the UK that saved us from the same meltdown of these two countries. Jim Sillars summed it up--Scotland are 90 patriots. IMHO that's the way its going to stay

[PeeJay]

If anybody's interested he's on Desert Island Discs (Radio 4) at the moment - The Proclaimers are in, but not "Sunshine on Leith"!:greengrin

[khib70]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

Guy praises the 70's Hibs team and actively supported us against Mercer - and he's a fud? Easy to see where your political sympathies lie.

:kettle:

[falkirk_cabbage]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

CRAP - Having met the man on several occasions he is a good guy who is Hearts supporter but also likes good footballing teams which we used to be.

[johnrebus]

President Soapy is a smug, Jambo loving toad, who lives - along with his party and its followers - in a fluffy little dream land.

He is also the best politician in Scotland by a country mile.

:agree:

[Hainan Hibs]

I'd rather I knew he was a Jambo than having to guess.

Jack McConnell was fantastic with Tam Cowan a few years back.

"So Jack, who's your team?"

"....well....eh....I've been to Paisley to see St Mirren....and...eh...went to Celtic Park before.... and ....eh"

"But who do you support?"

"well....as I said.....I've eh....been to a few stadiums....eh"


I'm also completely embarassed by the fact Ian Gray is a hibee. An absolute knob of a man.

[Hainan Hibs]

Darling v wee Eck massive mismatch. Darling an intelligent economist on the world stage, Wee Eck a fanciful dreamer. Remember the arc of prosperity, Ireland, Iceland and Scotland. It was the UK that saved us from the same meltdown of these two countries.

:faf:

Comedy gold. Put down The Sun and the Daily Record son.
I don't know who is more head in the sand, the Yams or Labour voters :ostrich:

[hibee62]

Absolute nonsense IMHO - he's the most capable politician this country has.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mercer-s-family-disgusted-by-first-minister-s-attack-1.905592

"Wallace is dead and gone now, of course, but I didn't like him either. I didn't like his attitude, I didn't like his politics and I didn't like his attempt to take over Hibernian."

Can't say fairer than that, even if he was pressured into apologising later for his comments.

Hmmm, Salmond says what he thinks people want to hear shocker... I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up at Tynecastle next week telling us Mercer was a legend, as you say: most capable politician this country has...

[PeeJay]

What utter rubbish. Westminster allowed the Scottish banks to go close to the brink before stepping in for political reasons not economic ones. Make no mistake, as an independent country, Scotland would not have been in that mess in the first place. But in the theoretical event that we were, you only have to look at the extraordinary steps Westminster has taken to prop up Irish banks to see what would have happened for an independent Scotland. Westminster has too much wrapped up in Irish banks (and Scottish banks) to be able to walk away from their responsibilities.
As for darling v Salmond. You are right, a complete mismatch, Salmond is streets ahead.

But this is a football forum, so lets drop the politics

(Off topic, I guess) Were the Scottish banks not master of their own downfall - how would it have been any different in an independent Scotland?:confused:

[allmodcons]

The man is a bigger FUD than Wallace mercer

'Well considered, intellectual posts' like this is why IMO many of us can't be bothered to get into a reasoned sensible debate regarding issues on the Hibs.net board.

Take a wee look at yersel and have a think before you hit the keyboard.

[The Falcon]

(Off topic, I guess) Were the Scottish banks not master of their own downfall - how would it have been any different in an independent Scotland?:confused:

Only difference would have been we couldnt have afforded to bail them out. Salmond has now, very strategically, moved his "aspirational" economy from Ireland and Iceland to Norway.

Salmond's career is based on two beliefs and get outs. 1) It was London that done it , and 2) Whit aboot the money frae the oil?

Like his team and the oil, its finished and there none left.

[The Tubs]

Only difference would have been we couldnt have afforded to bail them out. Salmond has now, very strategically, moved his "aspirational" economy from Ireland and Iceland to Norway.

Salmond's career is based on two beliefs and get outs. 1) It was London that done it , and 2) Whit aboot the money frae the oil?

Like his team and the oil, its finished and there none left.

There's some logic in this argument. If Thatcher hadn't liberalised the financial markets and Brown not continued to follow this policy then the UK wouldn't have been so submerged in the crisis and we wouldn't be so dependent on these banks and the related ideology which are now ripping British society to pieces.

There's much positive to be said about the growth models employed in Ireland and Iceland, especially how the latter achieved their growth in an extremely egalitarian fashion. The negative lesson to be learned from their experiences relates to how too much money under the control of too few people leads almost certainly to bother.

[The Falcon]

I think he uses it for everything Tubbs :greengrin

Politician though. And he's good at it.


There's some logic in this argument. If Thatcher hadn't liberalised the financial markets and Brown not continued to follow this policy then the UK wouldn't have been so submerged in the crisis and we wouldn't be so dependent on these banks and the related ideology which are now ripping British society to pieces.

There's much positive to be said about the growth models employed in Ireland and Iceland, especially how the latter achieved their growth in an extremely egalitarian fashion. The negative lesson to be learned from their experiences relates to how too much money under the control of too few people leads almost certainly to bother.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Peter Marinello was a good guy, FACT. Bobby Parker was a fud, FACT. The Proclaimers best songs are never played at Easter Road, FACT. Jack McConnell was not very tall, FACT.

There's a crisp fiver for the first reader to spot which of the above statements are true and which are false.

[blackpoolhibs]

Peter Marinello was a good guy, FACT. Bobby Parker was a fud, FACT. The Proclaimers best songs are never played at Easter Road, FACT. Jack McConnell was not very tall, FACT.

There's a crisp fiver for the first reader to spot which of the above statements are true and which are false.

If i answer and get it right, can i have a normal paper one?:wink:

[One Day Soon]

Peter Marinello was a good guy, FACT. Bobby Parker was a fud, FACT. The Proclaimers best songs are never played at Easter Road, FACT. Jack McConnell was not very tall, FACT.

There's a crisp fiver for the first reader to spot which of the above statements are true and which are false.

There's a significant error in your statement Mr Rolls. You say that Jack McConnell was not very tall. I contend that rather than simply 'was', he in fact remains not very tall.

[ScottB]

There's some logic in this argument. If Thatcher hadn't liberalised the financial markets and Brown not continued to follow this policy then the UK wouldn't have been so submerged in the crisis and we wouldn't be so dependent on these banks and the related ideology which are now ripping British society to pieces.

There's much positive to be said about the growth models employed in Ireland and Iceland, especially how the latter achieved their growth in an extremely egalitarian fashion. The negative lesson to be learned from their experiences relates to how too much money under the control of too few people leads almost certainly to bother.

Indeed. Also of course people no remove Norway from that statement. Norway of course having a gigantic fund it stashed up from all its oil over the years and as far as I am aware at least, suffered very little from the credit crunch.

[lucky]

:faf:

Comedy gold. Put down The Sun and the Daily Record son.
I don't know who is more head in the sand, the Yams or Labour voters :ostrich:

A bit disingenuous to Hibs fans that read tabloids. The reality is majority of Scots don't want wee Eck and his first class front bench (not) even more don't independence. So its time you realized that is you who has your head in the sand. But to fair I did like the analogy of Yams v labour voters due to the FACT Wee Eck is a yam.

[One Day Soon]

I'd rather I knew he was a Jambo than having to guess.

Jack McConnell was fantastic with Tam Cowan a few years back.

"So Jack, who's your team?"

"....well....eh....I've been to Paisley to see St Mirren....and...eh...went to Celtic Park before.... and ....eh"

"But who do you support?"

"well....as I said.....I've eh....been to a few stadiums....eh"


I'm also completely embarassed by the fact Ian Gray is a hibee. An absolute knob of a man.

Must you give us these tiresome and trite wee SNP party political messages? There's another forum for that kind of dribbling.

[ScottB]

A bit disingenuous to Hibs fans that read tabloids. The reality is majority of Scots don't want wee Eck and his first class front bench (not) even more don't independence. So its time you realized that is you who has your head in the sand. But to fair I did like the analogy of Yams v labour voters due to the FACT Wee Eck is a yam.

Actually, very unusually, Eck himself has very good approval ratings, north of 60% when compared to other party leaders.

An example of what Labour do when left to their own devices; I point you to our crumbling, unfinished, half billion pound tramline :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

Actually, very unusually, Eck himself has very good approval ratings, north of 60% when compared to other party leaders.

An example of what Labour do when left to their own devices; I point you to our crumbling, unfinished, half billion pound tramline :rolleyes:

You are quite right, after nearly three years of mismanagement by the Lib-Dem/SNP Council in Edinburgh the project is a complete mess. Still, the fact that Labour hasn't been in charge of either Scotland or Edinburgh for three years is presumably going to be conveniently ignored in your argument?

[ScottB]

You are quite right, after nearly three years of mismanagement by the Lib-Dem/SNP Council in Edinburgh the project is a complete mess. Still, the fact that Labour hasn't been in charge of either Scotland or Edinburgh for three years is presumably going to be conveniently ignored in your argument?

Well the project is in trouble down to the piss poor contract management that was put in place pre 2007. Thankfully the SNP capped its budget at £500 million when the Unionist bloc forced it through, or we'd be in even more mess.

Of course, the current Council have also cocked up repeatedly, but since the whole thing was the most dumbass plan ever conceived, and was solely a Labour Council vanity project, the initial blame lies firmly with them. Personally I'd sack every single politician who has had any degree of involvement with the ridiculous scheme.

[One Day Soon]

Well the project is in trouble down to the piss poor contract management that was put in place pre 2007. Thankfully the SNP capped its budget at £500 million when the Unionist bloc forced it through, or we'd be in even more mess.

Of course, the current Council have also cocked up repeatedly, but since the whole thing was the most dumbass plan ever conceived, and was solely a Labour Council vanity project, the initial blame lies firmly with them. Personally I'd sack every single politician who has had any degree of involvement with the ridiculous scheme.

Really? So that means you would sack Salmond, Swinney, Stevenson (oops, he's gone already) and Cardownie? Because they have all allowed the project, the expenditure and the mismanagement to unpack spectacularly on their watch.

I'm afraid your daft use of the term 'Unionist bloc' rather betrays the fact that your assessment of the whole thing is coming through tartan-tinted sunglasses. Whether you like it or not, there are now big SNP and Lib-Dem shaped fingerprints all over the mismanagement of the project. From what I'm hearing today the timer on that ticking tram parcel is now on a very short fuse too.....

[ScottB]

Really? So that means you would sack Salmond, Swinney, Stevenson (oops, he's gone already) and Cardownie? Because they have all allowed the project, the expenditure and the mismanagement to unpack spectacularly on their watch.

I'm afraid your daft use of the term 'Unionist bloc' rather betrays the fact that your assessment of the whole thing is coming through tartan-tinted sunglasses. Whether you like it or not, there are now big SNP and Lib-Dem shaped fingerprints all over the mismanagement of the project. From what I'm hearing today the timer on that ticking tram parcel is now on a very short fuse too.....

What quicker way is there for grouping them together? Excuse me for not typing Labour, Lib Dems and Tories.

Considering Salmond's government tabled a bill to scrap the whole thing (an opinion I would expect that was backed by the majority of this cities residents) then no, I wouldn't. The Government has had no involvement in the project since capping it at the budget (£500 million) that the previous Labour Council claimed was enough to build 3 whole lines... Yeah, that was an accurate assessment wasn't it! The fault of this project began with a red council, through the Lab / Lib / Con block in the parliament railroading it through to the current council. Though do feel free to continue dismissing it as Labour bashing if you like, god knows why, when I just said I'd sack the lot of the council folk who have had responsibility for the scheme, all be it I feel the larger portion of the blame rests with those who dreamt up the crackpot scheme in the first place.

As for Cardownie, couldn't care less. Love this nonsensical view you get from folk in this sort of debate that because I espouse some pro Nat opinions (trams are ridiculous, should be scrapped) I must therefore think the light shines out of every single one of them...

And I end with this; were, are or will the trams ever be a good idea? I say no and the obscene waste of money, not least in the current climate requires a public inquiry asap. Once the contractor finishes chewing what's left of TIE up in the courts of course.

[One Day Soon]

What quicker way is there for grouping them together? Excuse me for not typing Labour, Lib Dems and Tories.
LDs aren't Unionists, they're federalists.

Considering Salmond's government tabled a bill to scrap the whole thing (an opinion I would expect that was backed by the majority of this cities residents) then no, I wouldn't.
They could have killed it any time they wanted by pulling funding just like they did with Glasgow Airport Rail Link. They chose not to, going instead for a top line spin on being opposed to it while avoiding actually pulling the rug. The objective, as usual, was to try and harvest the anti-tram votes while not being seen as anti-Edinburgh by stopping it.

The Government has had no involvement in the project since capping it at the budget (£500 million) that the previous Labour Council claimed was enough to build 3 whole lines... Yeah, that was an accurate assessment wasn't it! The fault of this project began with a red council, through the Lab / Lib / Con block in the parliament railroading it through to the current council.
The fault of this project is all over everyone's hands and pretending otherwise is just dishonest. Actually it might be fair to exempt the Tories since they have been hostile to it from day one.

Though do feel free to continue dismissing it as Labour bashing if you like, god knows why, when I just said I'd sack the lot of the council folk who have had responsibility for the scheme, all be it I feel the larger portion of the blame rests with those who dreamt up the crackpot scheme in the first place.
I will thanks if you continue to misrepresent the history of what has happened.

As for Cardownie, couldn't care less. Love this nonsensical view you get from folk in this sort of debate that because I espouse some pro Nat opinions (trams are ridiculous, should be scrapped) I must therefore think the light shines out of every single one of them...
If the Nat view is that "trams are ridiculous, should be scrapped" why haven't they done that through either the Council which they jointly run or the Scottish Government which they solely run? Weasel words not backed up with real actions.

And I end with this; were, are or will the trams ever be a good idea? I say no and the obscene waste of money, not least in the current climate requires a public inquiry asap. Once the contractor finishes chewing what's left of TIE up in the courts of course.
I think they were a good idea, but appallingly managed. I agree on the public enquiry. And TIE is at the very centre of this particular web.

[ScottB]

I think they were a good idea, but appallingly managed. I agree on the public enquiry. And TIE is at the very centre of this particular web.

I'd love an explanation of how a minority government and a minority party in a council can do anything alone?

As I said, one of the SNP's first actions at Holyrood was to table a bill to scrap the whole thing. The other's voted it down and the Nats tagged the budget cap on, refusing to fund anymore beyond that.

Anyway, not the time or the place.

[greenlex]

This thread reminds me of the two of the three things not to be discussed in a strange pub. Football and politics.

[One Day Soon]

I'd love an explanation of how a minority government and a minority party in a council can do anything alone?

As I said, one of the SNP's first actions at Holyrood was to table a bill to scrap the whole thing. The other's voted it down and the Nats tagged the budget cap on, refusing to fund anymore beyond that.

Anyway, not the time or the place.

If a minority government cannot do anything alone perhaps you could explain how the very same minority government managed to stop the Glasgow Airport Rail Link project? In Edinburgh the SNP are, as you very well know, coalition partners with the Lib Dems and are jointly running the council. All they needed to do at any stage to collapse the trams project was to walk out of the coalition on any number of occasions when the trams were being voted on. They didn't.

But as you say, these awkward facts are perhaps not for this time or place.

[--------]

I'd rather I knew he was a Jambo than having to guess.

Jack McConnell was fantastic with Tam Cowan a few years back.

"So Jack, who's your team?"

"....well....eh....I've been to Paisley to see St Mirren....and...eh...went to Celtic Park before.... and ....eh"

"But who do you support?"

"well....as I said.....I've eh....been to a few stadiums....eh"

I'm also completely embarassed by the fact Ian Gray is a hibee. An absolute knob of a man.

:agree:

McConnell's powerbase was such that he couldn't say, "Rangers" - no one woulkd have believed him - and he couldn't say "Celtic" because half his constituency would have taken out a contract on him.

So he havered - unconvincingly. The political equivalent of Chic Young. Though even Chic Young didn't palm off a dodgy tramway system on the capital as his parting gift from Holyrood.

As for Gray, I had a fascinating discussion with an old friend from Tranent about him a wee while back - mainly on whether he was a 'knob', a 'choob', a 'waste of space', or a random cloning of Bender the robot in 'Futurama'.



Only difference would have been we couldnt have afforded to bail them out. Salmond has now, very strategically, moved his "aspirational" economy from Ireland and Iceland to Norway.

Salmond's career is based on two beliefs and get outs. 1) It was London that done it , and 2) Whit aboot the money frae the oil?

Like his team and the oil, its finished and there none left.


Now if I recollect aright, Alec has always spoken highly of Norway as an example of what would be possible for and independent Scotland. he wasn't the only one praising Ireland and Iceland - IIRC Gordon Brown and the ever-so-able Darling were more than complimentary about them, and neither of THEM issued warnings about things about to go pear-shaped in those islands BEFORE their mutual collapses. Neither Brown nor darling seemed to have any qualms about their policies or the way things were going before the crash.

And no, the oil isn't finished, and if it were, I think a Scot (you ARE a Scot, aren't you - it's rather hard to tell) would be a little more upset with the Westminster politicians who diverted most of the revenues to feed the economy of London and the Home Counties of England than the guy who was arguing for the money to be spent in Scotland.

And as for his team - have you actually LOOKED at the League table lately?

You're not related to Iain Gray, by any chance? (See above.) :devil:

[The Falcon]

:agree:

McConnell's powerbase was such that he couldn't say, "Rangers" - no one woulkd have believed him - and he couldn't say "Celtic" because half his constituency would have taken out a contract on him.

So he havered - unconvincingly. The political equivalent of Chic Young. Though even Chic Young didn't palm off a dodgy tramway system on the capital as his parting gift from Holyrood.

As for Gray, I had a fascinating discussion with an old friend from Tranent about him a wee while back - mainly on whether he was a 'knob', a 'choob', a 'waste of space', or a random cloning of Bender the robot in 'Futurama'.





Now if I recollect aright, Alec has always spoken highly of Norway as an example of what would be possible for and independent Scotland. he wasn't the only one praising Ireland and Iceland - IIRC Gordon Brown and the ever-so-able Darling were more than complimentary about them, and neither of THEM issued warnings about things about to go pear-shaped in those islands BEFORE their mutual collapses. Neither Brown nor darling seemed to have any qualms about their policies or the way things were going before the crash.

And no, the oil isn't finished, and if it were, I think a Scot (you ARE a Scot, aren't you - it's rather hard to tell) would be a little more upset with the Westminster politicians who diverted most of the revenues to feed the economy of London and the Home Counties of England than the guy who was arguing for the money to be spent in Scotland.

And as for his team - have you actually LOOKED at the League table lately?

You're not related to Iain Gray, by any chance? (See above.) :devil:

Aye, and Robert Maxwell lived a millionaire lifestyle with big houses and boats minted the man was, minted.

And leave my Uncle Iain out of this. :cool2:

[TrinityHibs]

Hopefully come may well have another term of Salmond with a better majority than that buffoon Gray.

Buffoon he may be but he is a Hibby:agree:

[ScottB]

If a minority government cannot do anything alone perhaps you could explain how the very same minority government managed to stop the Glasgow Airport Rail Link project? In Edinburgh the SNP are, as you very well know, coalition partners with the Lib Dems and are jointly running the council. All they needed to do at any stage to collapse the trams project was to walk out of the coalition on any number of occasions when the trams were being voted on. They didn't.

But as you say, these awkward facts are perhaps not for this time or place.

Being the Government or largest party actually means little in terms of pushing motions through, if there is a majority of others in agreement, as there is on Edinburgh Council regardless of what the Nat block do, the same applies at Holyrood. A majority of MSPs voted for the trams to go ahead, so it went ahead. Yes, they probably could have tried to derail it by underhanded means, excuse them for going along with the majority will of the Parliament. A mistake? Quite probably, but we live in a democracy after all.

Ah the Glasgow Rail link. Funny how in Glasgow Labour now use the tram project as the great symbol of the SNP hating Glasgow, completely whitewashing its origins as a solely Labour project. Rank revisionism.

[ScottB]

Now if I recollect aright, Alec has always spoken highly of Norway as an example of what would be possible for and independent Scotland. he wasn't the only one praising Ireland and Iceland - IIRC Gordon Brown and the ever-so-able Darling were more than complimentary about them, and neither of THEM issued warnings about things about to go pear-shaped in those islands BEFORE their mutual collapses. Neither Brown nor darling seemed to have any qualms about their policies or the way things were going before the crash.

And no, the oil isn't finished, and if it were, I think a Scot (you ARE a Scot, aren't you - it's rather hard to tell) would be a little more upset with the Westminster politicians who diverted most of the revenues to feed the economy of London and the Home Counties of England than the guy who was arguing for the money to be spent in Scotland.

And as for his team - have you actually LOOKED at the League table lately?

You're not related to Iain Gray, by any chance? (See above.) :devil:

That's because you can only attack Nats over economic issues they've spoken about in previous years, not our Tory Chancellor who has written at length about how Britain should do everything in its power to develop an economy 'just like Ireland's' or the many speeches the previous Labour government gave about the greatness of countries that are now further down the toilet than their own policies have left us.

Honestly, politicians of all shades and colours make speeches about policy x or country y all the damn time, just so folk can get in a lather about it on a messageboard 10 years later when said country's economy has collapsed.

[One Day Soon]

:agree:

McConnell's powerbase was such that he couldn't say, "Rangers" - no one woulkd have believed him - and he couldn't say "Celtic" because half his constituency would have taken out a contract on him.

So he havered - unconvincingly. The political equivalent of Chic Young. Though even Chic Young didn't palm off a dodgy tramway system on the capital as his parting gift from Holyrood.
Do you just sit at your keyboard and make up whatever comes into your head?

As for Gray, I had a fascinating discussion with an old friend from Tranent about him a wee while back - mainly on whether he was a 'knob', a 'choob', a 'waste of space', or a random cloning of Bender the robot in 'Futurama'.

Wow. That must have been a really informed and informative 'fascinating discussion'. What else that you know nothing about did you discuss?



Now if I recollect aright, Alec has always spoken highly of Norway as an example of what would be possible for and independent Scotland. he wasn't the only one praising Ireland and Iceland - IIRC Gordon Brown and the ever-so-able Darling were more than complimentary about them, and neither of THEM issued warnings about things about to go pear-shaped in those islands BEFORE their mutual collapses. Neither Brown nor darling seemed to have any qualms about their policies or the way things were going before the crash.
Would you like to produce any evidence at all to support this bizarre and I think frankly made up suggestion? I don't recall Brown and Darling touring the TV studios banging on about the 'Arc of Prosperity' from Iceland through Ireland that Scotland should copy as Salmond did incessantly, only to have to shut it when those economies went down the toilet. It is painful for children at the point when they realise that fairy stories are just that - and the Arc of Prosperity was pure Hans Christian Andersen stuff.

And no, the oil isn't finished, and if it were, I think a Scot (you ARE a Scot, aren't you - it's rather hard to tell) would be a little more upset with the Westminster politicians who diverted most of the revenues to feed the economy of London and the Home Counties of England than the guy who was arguing for the money to be spent in Scotland.

Don't confuse being a Scot with being a NAT, deliberately or otherwise. They aren't that same thing, much though the Nats and their fellow travellers work hard to pretend they are.

And as for his team - have you actually LOOKED at the League table lately?

You're not related to Iain Gray, by any chance? (See above.) :devil:
You're not related to Winnie Ewing are you?

[One Day Soon]

Being the Government or largest party actually means little in terms of pushing motions through, if there is a majority of others in agreement, as there is on Edinburgh Council regardless of what the Nat block do, the same applies at Holyrood. A majority of MSPs voted for the trams to go ahead, so it went ahead. Yes, they probably could have tried to derail it by underhanded means, excuse them for going along with the majority will of the Parliament. A mistake? Quite probably, but we live in a democracy after all.
What would have been underhanded about trying to implement the policy they claim to support - ie stopping the trams? This is the same as abolishing Council Tax, slashing pupil/teacher ratios and holding an Independence referendum. They talked big but didn't deliver. You can't make black into white. What's next, MacAskill didn't release Megrahi, everyone just imagined it?

Ah the Glasgow Rail link. Funny how in Glasgow Labour now use the tram project as the great symbol of the SNP hating Glasgow, completely whitewashing its origins as a solely Labour project. Rank revisionism.
Is that the best you can do to avoid answering the question? You have a Nat Govt that you claim is powerless to stop a tram in Edinburgh but can stop the Glasgow Airport Rail Link. Explain or desist.

[CentreLine]

Only difference would have been we couldnt have afforded to bail them out. Salmond has now, very strategically, moved his "aspirational" economy from Ireland and Iceland to Norway.

Salmond's career is based on two beliefs and get outs. 1) It was London that done it , and 2) Whit aboot the money frae the oil?

Like his team and the oil, its finished and there none left.

More utter rubbish. Even the most fervent unionist economists accept that, had Scotland been independent and in control of its own oil revenues, it would have held a significant surplus just as Norway has. Yes the banks were masters of their own downfall but an independent Scotland would have been well placed to deal with it. However, without oil revenues the British economy would now be in freefall. It was for that oil that the British Govenment considered putting troops on the streets of Scotland in the 1970's. The British Government are in the process of asset stripping Scotland and they were offered and took the opportunity to strengthen their grip on our major banks when it came along.

As regards there being no oil left, how do you explain the huge continued investment being made by the oil companies in the North Sea right now? It is happening because there is between 30 and 40 years of oil still in there. Which is of course why Westminster wants to avoid a strong nationalist movement in Scotland. Then of course there is water, yes water is the next oil that we will see piped south of the border all too soon.

[ScottB]

Is that the best you can do to avoid answering the question? You have a Nat Govt that you claim is powerless to stop a tram in Edinburgh but can stop the Glasgow Airport Rail Link. Explain or desist.

So, what part of 'Government tables Bill for scrapping trams / replacing council tax / whatever, government is a minority, other parties vote proposals down' are you struggling to grasp?

Text from the BBC article at the time...

'The new SNP government suffered its first defeat. It went down 81 to 47 when the opposition parties ganged up to vote for a motion insisting that the Edinburgh tram scheme go ahead.

Finance Secretary John Swinney immediately conceded defeat and announced that he would honour the £490m commitment made by the previous administration.

"But there will not be a penny more," he said.'

Iain Gray moaned incessantly about the SNP tabling Bills that were doomed to fail as a waste of time and money, so knowing the Independence Referendum Bill would fail, they didn't bother, so then he starts moaning that they didn't table the Bill! What's the point up against logic like that!

As for the Rail Link, it's funding was scrapped in the budget cuts announced in September 2009, long after the Tram money had been spent. These cuts were of course part of the Parliament's budget, which was either backed or unopposed by all parties in the Parliament, if Labour were that bothered about said Link, there was nothing to stop them using their numbers to block the budget, did they? No. Could the SNP have used similar methods to derail the tram project in 2007? In theory, yes of course, but as the other parties all supported the tram project, and there were no budget cuts taking place in 2007, what would you imagine the chances of a budget passing that included cutting the tram funding would be? Not good.

The point I've made repeatedly that you keep missing, NOTHING can pass through Holyrood without multi party support as things stand. Ever single policy that has been implemented since 2007 has had the support of some or all of the other parties, including Labour.

[RyeSloan]

More utter rubbish. Even the most fervent unionist economists accept that, had Scotland been independent and in control of its own oil revenues, it would have held a significant surplus just as Norway has. Yes the banks were masters of their own downfall but an independent Scotland would have been well placed to deal with it. However, without oil revenues the British economy would now be in freefall. It was for that oil that the British Govenment considered putting troops on the streets of Scotland in the 1970's. The British Government are in the process of asset stripping Scotland and they were offered and took the opportunity to strengthen their grip on our major banks when it came along.

As regards there being no oil left, how do you explain the huge continued investment being made by the oil companies in the North Sea right now? It is happening because there is between 30 and 40 years of oil still in there. Which is of course why Westminster wants to avoid a strong nationalist movement in Scotland. Then of course there is water, yes water is the next oil that we will see piped south of the border all too soon.

Starting a counter argument by stating the original poster is talking 'more utter rubbish' certainly raises the stakes in terms of the quality of your riposte.

I would suggest that you stating "had Scotland been independent and in control of its own oil revenues, it would have held a significant surplus just as Norway has" is mere conjecture. How do you know if an independent Scotland would have had a sovereign wealth fund, how do you know how well that would have been run, how do you know it wouldn't have been raided before the crash, how do you know if it would have been anywhere near big enough to support the banks???

The simple answer is you don't.

So who is talking rubbish now?

[steakbake]

Is that the best you can do to avoid answering the question? You have a Nat Govt that you claim is powerless to stop a tram in Edinburgh but can stop the Glasgow Airport Rail Link. Explain or desist.

By the time the Nationalists took office, the Trams were underway, indeed physically being put in place. The same could not be said for GARL which was still requiring government funding and going through a process of deliberation.

Hence, easier to scrap GARL - a project which had yet to see a brick laid and in which the Exec/ScotGov still had some say - than to stop the Edinburgh Trams which was a fait accompli.

[Calvin]

On the topic earlier in the thread, having an economic model similar to Iceland gets a bit of a bashing.

Maybe this will be of interest to those bashers: http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/6456753/bust-and-boom.thtml

Iceland has actually had one of the quickest and most successful economic recoveries in the world.

[RyeSloan]

On the topic earlier in the thread, having an economic model similar to Iceland gets a bit of a bashing.

Maybe this will be of interest to those bashers: http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/6456753/bust-and-boom.thtml

Iceland has actually had one of the quickest and most successful economic recoveries in the world.

Not quite sure of your terms of reference here...and all things are relative!

The article skirts round the massive pain suffered by individual icelanders....yes as a whole their economy may be starting to recover (although it was still shrinking last year and their growth forecasts have been significantly trimmed for 2011) but that does not detail the massive impact the crisis had on almost each and every one of their small population.

Huge devaluation of the currency may ultimately boost tourism but not so good when a lot of your debt is held in other currencies…not so smart either 18% interest rates on any loans you did have in local currency. Nor the 30% food inflation and 17% general inflation they suffered during the darker days of 2008/9 either I would have thought!

There may well be questions as to who has followed the correct path in dealing with the crisis..Iceland or Ireland but there is one thing for certain, if you had a choice you would not have followed either.