PDA

View Full Version : League Reconstruction = Sell Out



Isaac_Refvik
18-01-2011, 11:39 AM
Once again we've wagged our tails, rolled over, and put up our paw when the Big laddies from the West tell us to. It is a disgrace. It is on their terms and the actual spectacle of watching a decent football match never even entered their thoughts. Neil Lancaster states that the larger 16 or 18 team leagues have been tried and they failed, with crowds dropping off in the late 60's and early 70's. What he doesn't mention is the crud we had to watch in the 80's, once people had got fed up playing the same team over and over again. An article in yesterdays paper described that the Turkish Superlig is flourishing with, historically, the top 4 clubs being deposed by a New Firm who have won the League for the past couple of years. There is plenty of money being splashed out on transfers and the quality of football is more than decent.
All this with an 18 team top league!!
You can dress it up any way you want but bottom line is you need to give the punters something worth leaving the house for. A 10 team league failed to do that before and I don't believe it will do it this time.

Renfrew_Hibby
18-01-2011, 12:07 PM
Did we not have our own New Firm win 3 or 4 titles in a 10 team set up???

I know it was over 25 years ago blah blah blah.

Really dont know where Scottish football is going. For me it seems that Rantic really want a 10 team set up and what the old firm want, the old firm get!

greenlex
18-01-2011, 12:11 PM
Hibs V Partick will really get them punters rolling in.

GreenCastle
18-01-2011, 12:14 PM
Hibs playing St Mirren this season possibly 5 times is really exciting too :confused:

Playing Rangers and Celtic so many times widens the gap in the league.

If it was a once off game at home - we would have more chance of closing the gap and the stadium would be buzzing knowing we wouldn't see them at ER till a season later ( unless we got them in the cup).

Can't people get their heads round the fact that the league is BORING.

bobbyhibs1983
18-01-2011, 12:20 PM
i dont understand why the spl and the hairmen seem to think a 10team league will work,Just now 12 teams, i think most fans are sick as playing each other 3-4 times a season(i used to like playing heartz 4times a season but just now i hate playing them) but with a 10 team league am i right in thinking its gonna be teams playing more against one another?


Whats wrong with a 16-18 or dare i say it a 20team league?
with regards 20 league team you d get 36 games per season one game at home and one game away vs ONE TEAM.I reckon 3 down and 3 up from the 1st div.

Big Frank
18-01-2011, 12:20 PM
The country needs to waken up.

They want rid of Scottish football. They want to play in England, or any future European super league format.

Making Scottish Football ****ter and ****ter benefits the provincial glasgow Clubs.

The first thing Hibs and Hertz need to do is become friends at Boardroom level. Not suggesting for a minute they get as close to each other as the provincial glasgow 2, but those at the helm of the Capital clubs need to wisen up, and sharpish.

Over to you Bawbag Vlad. You need to start making friends.

freddie m
18-01-2011, 12:26 PM
As supporters we could always reignite the Stand Up and Be Counted slogan because as it stands we supporters are not being listened to. I am not just talking about Hibernian supporters but supporters of all clubs in the SPL.
Referees stood up not that long ago by withdrawing their labour from Scottish Football. As supporters we are in an even stronger position than anyone in Scottish Football can you imagine withdrawing your support for 1 or 2 games. This I believe is the only way that we can return control of our clubs back to the people that matter i.e. the supporters and the Community.



Glory glory
:flag::flag::flag:

CabbageFan
18-01-2011, 12:40 PM
As supporters we could always reignite the Stand Up and Be Counted slogan because as it stands we supporters are not being listened to. I am not just talking about Hibernian supporters but supporters of all clubs in the SPL.
Referees stood up not that long ago by withdrawing their labour from Scottish Football. As supporters we are in an even stronger position than anyone in Scottish Football can you imagine withdrawing your support for 1 or 2 games. This I believe is the only way that we can return control of our clubs back to the people that matter i.e. the supporters and the Community.



Glory glory
:flag::flag::flag:


I strongly agree with this, we hold the key and staging a strike for a game or two and having completely empty stadiums across the country would certainly get their attention to what the supporters want.

J-C
18-01-2011, 12:45 PM
Hibs V Partick will really get them punters rolling in.


Why not?
I'd love to see a few more games against teams like Thistle/Dundee/Falkirk etc
Right now I'm very bored watching us play the same over and over, also these teams are just as well supported as Kille/St Mirren etc.

superfurryhibby
18-01-2011, 12:46 PM
I am totally disgusted with the proposals. The fans, the lifeblood of Scottish football, don't want it. Do the SPL care, do they hell.

What I wonder is what would happen if the TV money disappeared? It seems to me that Scottish football managed without their cash for many a decade. It would mean that clubs would have to tailor their budgets to suit but life would go on.

A bigger league would offer more protection inherrently. There is very little to choose between the top six Division 1 and the bottom six SPl teams and a more level financial playing field would soon address that anyway.

I favour a sixteen team top league with a smaller second tier and third tiers. Thereafter I would suggest a regional pyramid system, with teams from the juniors and highland leagues playing for access to the third tier.

Revenues from lost game numbers could be made up from expanded league cup/alba cup ties.

I would also suggest a move to summer football. They say that none of the top leagues do this. Well frankly the Scottish league is not a top league.

Our game is hoplessly outdated. we have a ridiculous number of teams in the lower leagues with little or no ambition, who merely tread water. Give the ambitious , well supported non league sides a crack at them.

THose that say our game would become a backwater overlook the fact that that has already happened. With reduced TV revenues we would find a level and maybe we would see less reliance on the foriegn journeymen syndrome. This would open the door to young Scottish players.

Sammy7nil
18-01-2011, 12:46 PM
Once again we've wagged our tails, rolled over, and put up our paw when the Big laddies from the West tell us to. It is a disgrace. It is on their terms and the actual spectacle of watching a decent football match never even entered their thoughts. Neil Lancaster states that the larger 16 or 18 team leagues have been tried and they failed, with crowds dropping off in the late 60's and early 70's. What he doesn't mention is the crud we had to watch in the 80's, once people had got fed up playing the same team over and over again. An article in yesterdays paper described that the Turkish Superlig is flourishing with, historically, the top 4 clubs being deposed by a New Firm who have won the League for the past couple of years. There is plenty of money being splashed out on transfers and the quality of football is more than decent.
All this with an 18 team top league!!
You can dress it up any way you want but bottom line is you need to give the punters something worth leaving the house for. A 10 team league failed to do that before and I don't believe it will do it this time.

Turkey has a population of 77 Million. We have 5 Million.

I was sick and tired of 1st Div when we were down there by the end I was praying for games to end as I bored senseless. An 18 team league means dire pointless meaningless games. In a 10 team league with two down and 4 Euro Places it may generate some interest.
If for example Hibs are bottom two with 4 games to go our 2 home games could have 15,000 fans If we were 13th in an 18 team league they would be 6,000. I am not saying it is great but it is beeter than we have.

patlowe
18-01-2011, 12:48 PM
As supporters we could always reignite the Stand Up and Be Counted slogan because as it stands we supporters are not being listened to. I am not just talking about Hibernian supporters but supporters of all clubs in the SPL.
Referees stood up not that long ago by withdrawing their labour from Scottish Football. As supporters we are in an even stronger position than anyone in Scottish Football can you imagine withdrawing your support for 1 or 2 games. This I believe is the only way that we can return control of our clubs back to the people that matter i.e. the supporters and the Community.



Glory glory
:flag::flag::flag:


The only fear I have with boycotting is that it risks driving the SPL further in their quest to hang on to SKY money but you're right, supporters need to let clubs know that they will not accept this. If people on here are reconsidering renewing their season ticket based on this decision (as I am) then let the club know that, if it becomes clear that the this move endangers the very core of our support then the club will be forced to act.

allezsauzee
18-01-2011, 12:49 PM
i dont understand why the spl and the hairmen seem to think a 10team league will work,Just now 12 teams, i think most fans are sick as playing each other 3-4 times a season(i used to like playing heartz 4times a season but just now i hate playing them) but with a 10 team league am i right in thinking its gonna be teams playing more against one another?


Whats wrong with a 16-18 or dare i say it a 20team league?
with regards 20 league team you d get 36 games per season one game at home and one game away vs ONE TEAM.I reckon 3 down and 3 up from the 1st div.

We had a 18 team top divison before and we changed it because there were too many meaningless games. The chances are that half the division will have nothing to play for for a good 3/4 months of the season. Unless we maybe had teams in 3rd to 6th place in a play off for the 2 European places and maybe 2 automatic relegation places with play offs to decide a 3rd relegation place. However the real problem isn't the divisional set up, its the fact that non of our clubs can afford to pay the wages of decent players any more. I'm not sure that Hibs playing the likes of Queen of the South and Partick instead of an extra game against the Old firm will change that.

J-C
18-01-2011, 12:50 PM
Turkey has a population of 77 Million. We have 5 Million.

I was sick and tired of 1st Div when we were down there by the end I was praying for games to end as I bored senseless. An 18 team league means dire pointless meaningless games. In a 10 team league with two down at Euro Places it may generate some interest.
If for example Hibs are bottom two with 4 games to go our 2 home games could have 15,000 fans If we were 13th in an 18 team league they would be 6,000. I am not saying it is great but it is beeter than we have.


Not necessarily, look at the EPL this year....the bottom and top of the league has been the most exciting it has been in years.....any 1 of 5-6 teams could win and any of the bottom 8 could go down, now that's exciting.

patlowe
18-01-2011, 12:53 PM
With reduced TV revenues we would find a level and maybe we would see less reliance on the foriegn journeymen syndrome. This would open the door to young Scottish players.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say for ages, the suits are going about this from completely the wrong angle. Lets find our level and build interest again from the bottom, why cling on to SKY like a lost puppy? Sod them.

Posh Swanny
18-01-2011, 12:56 PM
Hibs V Partick will really get them punters rolling in.

Hibs V Partick: Hibs are just five points behind second placed Rangers and eight points behind Celtic at the top, with five games to go. Hibs are unbeaten in fourteen and recently won nine matches in a row. There is only one OF game left (at home to Celtic) and we have already beaten Rangers at home. The OF play each other tomorrow.

Fancy it? :wink:

Sammy7nil
18-01-2011, 12:56 PM
Not necessarily, look at the EPL this year....the bottom and top of the league has been the most exciting it has been in years.....any 1 of 5-6 teams could win and any of the bottom 8 could go down, now that's exciting.

For the 1st time in 25 years :cool2:
This is so far form the norm it is scary. Also EPL has had Zillions pumped in to it you cant compare a gold bar with a potato. We are a Nation of 5 million we should have no more than 20 teams full stop. The crowds in the 2nd and 3rd are laughable you get bigger crowds at a School Cup Final.

Sammy7nil
18-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Hibs V Partick: Hibs are just five points behind second placed Rangers and eight points behind Celtic at the top, with five games to go. Hibs are unbeaten in fourteen and recently won nine matches in a row. There is only one OF game left (at home to Celtic) and we have already beaten Rangers at home. The OF play each other tomorrow.

Fancy it? :wink:

Hibs beat Hearts 0 - 7 at Tynie on New Years day to move top of the league on goal differnce. Jimmy the No 2 Hibs striker scores his 23 goal of the season it could never happen ............... Hold on a minute.

Those days LONG GONE

superfurryhibby
18-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Turkey has a population of 77 Million. We have 5 Million.

I was sick and tired of 1st Div when we were down there by the end I was praying for games to end as I bored senseless. An 18 team league means dire pointless meaningless games. In a 10 team league with two down and 4 Euro Places it may generate some interest.
If for example Hibs are bottom two with 4 games to go our 2 home games could have 15,000 fans If we were 13th in an 18 team league they would be 6,000. I am not saying it is great but it is beeter than we have.

The ten club league means that teams will always be under pressure. There is no room for blooding youngsters and survival becomes the rasion d'etre. That is not good for the game either.

An expanded league it would allow more opportunity for building a team rather than a constant focusing on survival.

Attendences. We only had 13,500 at the Celtic game and that's being generous. The Tims brought 4,500 of those and from where I was sitting the Hibs crowd in the FFS and West stand was smaller than at any othr game this season. People are losing interest and I'm not sure that attracting big crowds for relegation struggles are very likely or very desirable anyway.

Let see how our attendences drop this season if we remain as pesh as we are.

DAZ86
18-01-2011, 01:01 PM
I the clubs get more funds then it may work out to be ok.

I would've liked a bigger league but more cash has to be the priority.

I like playing teams often while we are winning, as you all do. When we get beat we dread playing the bigger sides.

Sammy7nil
18-01-2011, 01:02 PM
This is exactly what I've been trying to say for ages, the suits are going about this from completely the wrong angle. Lets find our level and build interest again from the bottom, why cling on to SKY like a lost puppy? Sod them.


Have you ever been to or viewed a League of Ireland game? :confused:

We are hoovering just above that now the thought of watching that DROSS played on tiny local pitches in front of 100's of fans does not appeal.

Sammy7nil
18-01-2011, 01:05 PM
The ten club league means that teams will always be under pressure. There is no room for blooding youngsters and survival becomes the rasion d'etre. That is not good for the game either.

An expanded league it would allow more opportunity for building a team rather than a constant focusing on survival.

Attendences. We only had 13,500 at the Celtic game and that's being generous. The Tims brought 4,500 of those and from where I was sitting the Hibs crowd in the FFS and West stand was smaller than at any othr game this season. People are losing interest and I'm not sure that attracting big crowds for relegation struggles are very likely or very desirable anyway.

Let see how our attendences drop this season if we remain as pesh as we are.

We have won 4 games in 12 Months if People were not losing interest they would be MORONS. If we were winning in a 10 team league crowds would increase simple. If we are in a relegation battle in the last 6 games the crowds will increase. There has to be a reason to go and that reason will never be 10th in a 16 team league.

J-C
18-01-2011, 01:06 PM
For the 1st time in 25 years :cool2:
This is so far form the norm it is scary. Also EPL has had Zillions pumped in to it you cant compare a gold bar with a potato. We are a Nation of 5 million we should have no more than 20 teams full stop. The crowds in the 2nd and 3rd are laughable you get bigger crowds at a School Cup Final.


Hence the reason play offs for European places and relegation/promotion is also introduced to make it more exciting. Doncaster has spoken about a 14 team league but he says at the moment we don't have the money for it, so a 10 team league to him is the way forward for now.

So it seems like it's get as money as we can for the next few years( making sure the OF get the most ) let a wee drop trickle down to the rest to keep them happy, then if we can remember about it , we'll look at changing it to 14 teams at some point in time.

Sky have obviously had a lot of input here and it looks like the future of Scottish football has nothing to do with this. With 10 teams all the clubs outwith the OF will be making sure relegation isn't an issue, so youth policy will go out the window and experienced players will be a necessity. With 14 teams, younger players can be introduced occasionally, which can only benefit Scottish football.

greenlex
18-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Not necessarily, look at the EPL this year....the bottom and top of the league has been the most exciting it has been in years.....any 1 of 5-6 teams could win and any of the bottom 8 could go down, now that's exciting.

And crowds are down.

greenlex
18-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Why not?
I'd love to see a few more games against teams like Thistle/Dundee/Falkirk etc
Right now I'm very bored watching us play the same over and over, also these teams are just as well supported as Kille/St Mirren etc.

Remind me the crowd size against Ayr a couple if weeks ago with reduced pricing?
That's why not.

down the slope
18-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong but were we not relegated twice when we had a ten team league ?, i think Hearts went down for the first time in their history as well and now they want a more cutthroat league with the chance of one fifth of the ten going down. I heard Doncaster say that there would be more derbies for the fans to watch but what if say us and Aberdeen went down in the same year then that theory would be well ****ed. The whole exercise is an ill thought out bucket of gash and what's the odds that they will want a rise in season ticket money to watch it ?.

happiehibbie
18-01-2011, 01:16 PM
The way I see this is that given the situation we are in at the moment relegation candidates why would pettrie vote for a 10 team league. Does he know something we dont ?

For me it would be a 14 team league play each other twice at the moment whe SFA need to worry about the scottish cup crowds surley our top competition is lacking somwthing when we all decide we are not going to go

Beefster
18-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Why not?
I'd love to see a few more games against teams like Thistle/Dundee/Falkirk etc
Right now I'm very bored watching us play the same over and over, also these teams are just as well supported as Kille/St Mirren etc.

We attracted about 4,500 Hibs fans for a game against Ayr. Given that one or two thousand of those probably had the Top-Up, that means we attracted about 2,500-3000 walk up fans.


Hibs V Partick: Hibs are just five points behind second placed Rangers and eight points behind Celtic at the top, with five games to go. Hibs are unbeaten in fourteen and recently won nine matches in a row. There is only one OF game left (at home to Celtic) and we have already beaten Rangers at home. The OF play each other tomorrow.

Fancy it? :wink:

It was all going to plan too until those pesky Martians landed their spacecraft on the pitch during the Celtic game and shot half our team with their laser guns. Thankfully, Godzilla ate the Martians before they could shoot everyone though.

superfurryhibby
18-01-2011, 01:21 PM
We have won 4 games in 12 Months if People were not losing interest they would be MORONS. If we were winning in a 10 team league crowds would increase simple. If we are in a relegation battle in the last 6 games the crowds will increase. There has to be a reason to go and that reason will never be 10th in a 16 team league.

We are in a relagation battle now and crowds are falling. No, that kind of excitement doesn't appeal at all.

If we were winning..........well that's a big i

J-C
18-01-2011, 01:22 PM
And crowds are down.

Crowds are down everywhere, it's called ecconomic recession.


Remind me the crowd size against Ayr a couple if weeks ago with reduced pricing?
That's why not.


Hibs haven't been attracting crowds just now due to the fact they're p1sh right now, get a team on the park and they'll come back.

easty
18-01-2011, 01:28 PM
10/16/18 team league...for me it doesn't matter all that much.

Would I prefer more than 10 teams...yes.

But above all I want Hibs to be a competitive side in the top flight, and when that happens attendances will be good. We're not going to split the Old Firm regardless of league size, but if we're finishing 3rd each year then I don't really care if there are 7 teams or 13 teams or 15 teams lower than us.

machibby
18-01-2011, 01:44 PM
For me there are some positives in what they're trying to do. For on summer football and winter break seem to scream out common sense.
The other is less meaningless games, which I think has less to do with league size and more to do with the old carrot and stick. Having only one team go down was possibly the worst thing to happen to the spl. You look at the English leagues setup on that front and you see where the excitement comes from - lots of teams in the mix and lots to play for.
The down side of all this is at the top end and the continuing debacle of this 11 to 1 voting system and the ugly sisters. Have to say Vlad called this one spot on, until a change is brought to ensure an even split of revenue frankly we're DOOMED.

hibsforeurope
18-01-2011, 01:44 PM
10 teams may or may not be the answer to improving Scottish football but to disregard the fans opinion is shocking. All the decision makers need to remember why and how they are there in the first place, if the fans don't turn up they all would be out a job very soon!

The SPL clubs seem to have treated the fans views with the opinion "they'll turn up what ever we decide" I hope this is the case of football in Scotland is dead and finished.

Something needs to be done before the final decision is made.

rj hibs
18-01-2011, 02:16 PM
We are in a relagation battle now and crowds are falling. No, that kind of excitement doesn't appeal at all.

If we were winning..........well that's a big i

actually, our crowds have increased slightly this season despite the poor performances.

2009/10 - 12164
2010/11 - 12484

MrSmith
18-01-2011, 02:24 PM
I have started writing a letter see below. Please feel free to correct and add to.

Dear Mr Farmer,

I am a parent. I have three lovely little boys who all support Hibernian FC. This year I have managed to attend very few matches however, my boys like their football strips. It has cost me in the region of £450 for Hibernian FC strips. You see, they really liked the new home strip but really, really liked the mint green strip and now love the yellow strip! Add this expense to the few matches I have attended and the cost of food during these matches; I have spent nearly £800 so far. Not as much as some supporters but fair amount none-the-less.

The reason for this letter is that I’m extremely disappointed in the attitude Hibernian FC’s senior management team has adopted. Now I fully understand and recognise the progress the club has made in the last 20 years and appreciate the efforts from yourself and the board. However, it would appear to me that no one in your senior management team is interested in the opinion of us mere fans. This is in relation to the proposed ten-team league set-up, which is being discussed and most likely ratified by the SPL chairmen and executive committee in the very near future. As fans, your senior management team has not consulted us nor have they imparted any relevant information about this proposal or how it will affect our club, finances, players nor the reasoning behind why they are blindly supporting it? We have heard nothing except that our chairman fully supports the notional idea. Well we the fans do not!

I do understand the arguments for a sustainable financially stable club but cannot help think that relying on television money, dictated to us by Rangers, Celtic and the SPL, will inevitably leave us in worse financial folly than we have ever been in. This ten-team proposal is nothing short of a red herring that needs to be avoided at all costs because it will never make us sustainable. True sustainability comes from within – something of which fans know but is a discussion for another time.

Getting back to my first paragraph. I am parent with three kids, all of whom want to be part of the Hibs Family but on a grander scale: New strips, season tickets, merchandise and snacks whilst attending matches. Now putting a price on this would surely take me to about £2000 maybe more?? This is hard earned income that will be lost to Hibs if this league proposal goes ahead because I will not attend another match nor buy merchandise if this league abomination goes ahead!

Like thousands of other fans who attend and those others who don’t, I care deeply about Hibernian FC and appeal to your sense of fairness and decency: Please, please step in and stop - on behalf of every real fan of Scottish Football - this nonsensical 10 team league reconstruction proposal now before it is too late and severely effects the club we all love.

Sincerely.

vahibbie
18-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Turkey has a population of 77 Million. We have 5 Million.

I was sick and tired of 1st Div when we were down there by the end I was praying for games to end as I bored senseless. An 18 team league means dire pointless meaningless games. In a 10 team league with two down and 4 Euro Places it may generate some interest.
If for example Hibs are bottom two with 4 games to go our 2 home games could have 15,000 fans If we were 13th in an 18 team league they would be 6,000. I am not saying it is great but it is beeter than we have.

Or not.
We're bottom two so probably playing crap and not getting results, a bit like right now. Is that going to pull 15,000 Hibbies into ER:confused:
We might have less pointless games but they may still not generate bigger crowds.

Posh Swanny
18-01-2011, 03:03 PM
It was all going to plan too until those pesky Martians landed their spacecraft on the pitch during the Celtic game and shot half our team with their laser guns. Thankfully, Godzilla ate the Martians before they could shoot everyone though.

OK so it was maybe a little far fetched! :greengrin

The purpose was to highlight at least a few of the positives in not punting three points down the M8 every five games or so.

greenlex
18-01-2011, 03:10 PM
Crowds are down everywhere, it's called ecconomic recession.




Hibs haven't been attracting crowds just now due to the fact they're p1sh right now, get a team on the park and they'll come back.

Yes the recession but even with reduced tickets against different opposition fans still didnt want to go.
You are spot on about a winning side though but it doesnt really matter how many teams are in the league or how many times we play each other as long as they are winning.

Septimus
18-01-2011, 03:31 PM
Hibs V Partick will really get them punters rolling in.

There was a time when this was a fixture to savour. Then, of course, the money men had their say and teams like Partick were squeezed out financially. I can remember when it was not at all surprising to see a Partick player in a Scottish shirt.

Lucius Apuleius
18-01-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't quite get this meaningless games thing with a 16 or 18 team league. Surely every league in the world with that number or more must be the same yet it seems the majority of countries run with it relatively successfully. Also, surely there is money to be made for every point won?

Woody1985
18-01-2011, 05:37 PM
I don't quite get this meaningless games thing with a 16 or 18 team league. Surely every league in the world with that number or more must be the same yet it seems the majority of countries run with it relatively successfully. Also, surely there is money to be made for every point won?

I posted this against someone's meaningless games arguement recently but didn't get a reply.

--------
18-01-2011, 05:42 PM
Does anyone know when this change is expected to happen?

Because if it's happening next season, we're screwed. :rolleyes:

frazeHFC
18-01-2011, 06:08 PM
Does anyone know when this change is expected to happen?

Because if it's happening next season, we're screwed. :rolleyes:

I think next season 3 teams go down and then in the 2012/13 season it would be 10 teams.

We need to protest, or Scottish fitba is dead!