Moan the Tunisians....

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12195025

[Big Ed]

I wonder what will happen next. The Prime Minister has assumed power, but apparently that is unconstitutional. It strikes me that this is an attempt by the ruling elite to hang on to power, but just now, that doesn't look likely.
Ben Ali has been popular with Western Governments because, despite his faults, in their eyes, he has a secular stance. Now they are distancing themselves from his regime.
If there are elections, it may be that less secular parties will triumph. There are also predictions of a domino effect in other Arab states. It could be that these Arab countries won't be run by Western friendly dictators any more.
It could get even more interesting.

[Betty Boop]

I wonder what will happen next. The Prime Minister has assumed power, but apparently that is unconstitutional. It strikes me that this is an attempt by the ruling elite to hang on to power, but just now, that doesn't look likely.
Ben Ali has been popular with Western Governments because, despite his faults, in their eyes, he has a secular stance. Now they are distancing themselves from his regime.
If there are elections, it may be that less secular parties will triumph. There are also predictions of a domino effect in other Arab states. It could be that these Arab countries won't be run by Western friendly dictators any more.
It could get even more interesting.

There have also been anti-government riots in Jordan recently, although I haven't seen much about it in the Western media.

[discman]

I wonder what will happen next. The Prime Minister has assumed power, but apparently that is unconstitutional. It strikes me that this is an attempt by the ruling elite to hang on to power, but just now, that doesn't look likely.
Ben Ali has been popular with Western Governments because, despite his faults, in their eyes, he has a secular stance. Now they are distancing themselves from his regime.
If there are elections, it may be that less secular parties will triumph. There are also predictions of a domino effect in other Arab states. It could be that these Arab countries won't be run by Western friendly dictators any more.
It could get even more interesting.



Way back in the day this was rational for invading Vietnam,the feared domino effect,however think things,hopefully,will stabilise in Tunisa :greengrin

[Bayern Bru]

There have also been anti-government riots in Jordan recently, although I haven't seen much about it in the Western media.

Strangely enough it's been virtually ignored, you're right. Perhaps Jordan just isn't that important to the west.

[Speedy]

Strangely enough it's been virtually ignored, you're right. Perhaps Jordan just isn't that important to the west.

What do you mean? She's never out the news :greengrin
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3354617/Jordan-Ill-boot-him-out-change-the-frocks.html

[HibeeEmma]

There have also been anti-government riots in Jordan recently, although I haven't seen much about it in the Western media.

Not surprised, this is a revolution against corrupt governements and is a positive spin on Middle Eastern politics. If they are seen to be moving in the right direction without the West it reduced the need for the West to intervene in the Middle East. Therefore unless Britian or America are involved they will be looking to limit news of self-determination. (IMO of course)

[Dinkydoo]

Was on holiday in Tunisia last summer in Mahdia, wonderful country with wonderful people.


Saying that there was a lot of derelict buildings if you dared stray away from the tourist zones.

Felt reasonably safe the whole time and hope to go back - once this situation has cleared it'self up, which unfortunately probably won't be anytime soon.

[LiverpoolHibs]

There have also been anti-government riots in Jordan recently, although I haven't seen much about it in the Western media.

And Libya and Algeria and Egypt. Absolutely inspirational scenes in Tunisia particularly. Remember the name Mohamed Bouazizi.


Strangely enough it's been virtually ignored, you're right. Perhaps Jordan just isn't that important to the west.

Or because, as Tunisia is/was, it is an important U.S. client regime in the region.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=LiverpoolHibs;2705916]And Libya and Algeria and Egypt. Absolutely inspirational scenes in Tunisia particularly. Remember the name Mohamed Bouazizi.


Six dead in the anti-government protests in Cairo. Mubarak the next to get emptied, the US must be watching on nervously.

[khib70]

[QUOTE=LiverpoolHibs;2705916]And Libya and Algeria and Egypt. Absolutely inspirational scenes in Tunisia particularly. Remember the name Mohamed Bouazizi.


Six dead in the anti-government protests in Cairo. Mubarak the next to get emptied, the US must be watching on nervously.
We should all be watching on nervously. Mubarak is a corrupt and brutal tyrant. However, nice as his downfall would be, it could create a political vacuum which the jihadist nutters of the Muslim Brotherhood could see as an oportunity.

Much the same situation prevails in Algeria and Tunisia , and with Hizbollah muscling into power in Lebanon, it's not in anyone's interests to weaken secular government in the region.

[steakbake]

[QUOTE=Betty Boop;2711038]
We should all be watching on nervously. Mubarak is a corrupt and brutal tyrant. However, nice as his downfall would be, it could create a political vacuum which the jihadist nutters of the Muslim Brotherhood could see as an oportunity.

Much the same situation prevails in Algeria and Tunisia , and with Hizbollah muscling into power in Lebanon, it's not in anyone's interests to weaken secular government in the region.

I think that is a perception which is put about to serve the purpose of the west an understandable one, but I don't think it would turn out to be the reality.

Many of these countries would very easily be given to the kind of secular democracy found in Turkey, given half a chance. Instead, there have been various facades of democracy usually behind a hard man retainer who is the president or we've had monarchies/dictatorships. The argument goes that if they go, the fundamentalists move in.

The problem for the "West" is that we've spent 30 years propping up Mubarak and people of his ilk throughout the region because it suits our wider international aims. I think the world stands a far better chance of eliminating the threat of "radical" Islam if the countries from which it tends to ferment are modern functioning democracies or at least, are not dictatorships/elected dictatorships pretending to be something else.

[khib70]

[QUOTE=khib70;2712262]

I think that is a perception which is put about to serve the purpose of the west an understandable one, but I don't think it would turn out to be the reality.

Many of these countries would very easily be given to the kind of secular democracy found in Turkey, given half a chance. Instead, there have been various facades of democracy usually behind a hard man retainer who is the president or we've had monarchies/dictatorships. The argument goes that if they go, the fundamentalists move in.

The problem for the "West" is that we've spent 30 years propping up Mubarak and people of his ilk throughout the region because it suits our wider international aims. I think the world stands a far better chance of eliminating the threat of "radical" Islam if the countries from which it tends to ferment are modern functioning democracies or at least, are not dictatorships/elected dictatorships pretending to be something else.
That was me, not Betty.

I have no problem with any of your post. I would absolutely prefer a modern functioning democracy to the status quo in just about any of the Arab states. I think that the vast majority of citizens in these countries would want the same, regardless of what the cultural relativists say.

Islamists don't give a toss about what the vast majority of people want. They're on a mission from God. They're well capable of violently exploiting a political vacuum to subvert the will of the majority. That's all I'm saying here.

[Betty Boop]

Massive protests planned tomorrow after Friday prayers. Mohammed al Baradei former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency is to lead the demonstrations. These protests appear to be gathering support all over Egypt.

[khib70]

Massive protests planned tomorrow after Friday prayers. Mohammed al Baradei former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency is to lead the demonstrations. These protests appear to be gathering support all over Egypt.
:agree: al Baradei seems a pretty decent individual - and not just by comparison with the destestable Mubarak.

There's massive mobilisation of police and security forces, and I suspect Mubarak isn't giving up without a fight. I really fear there could be serious bloodshed. The West needs to use its influence on Mubarak to convince him his time is up and prevent needless deaths. The leaders of other Arab states will be no help, since they're all crapping themselves in case they are next. Yemen especially.

[Betty Boop]

:agree: al Baradei seems a pretty decent individual - and not just by comparison with the destestable Mubarak.

There's massive mobilisation of police and security forces, and I suspect Mubarak isn't giving up without a fight. I really fear there could be serious bloodshed. The West needs to use its influence on Mubarak to convince him his time is up and prevent needless deaths. The leaders of other Arab states will be no help, since they're all crapping themselves in case they are next. Yemen especially.

Agree 100% ! :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Thousands out on the streets in Suez, apparently they have overwhelmed the security forces. Meanwhile Mohammed al Baradei is under house arrest after leading a peaceful protest.

[(((Fergus)))]

Thousands out on the streets in Suez, apparently they have overwhelmed the security forces. Meanwhile Mohammed al Baradei is under house arrest after leading a peaceful protest.

Do you know they've switched the Internet off now? Only one ISP is still functioning - the one that serves the stock exchange (and Al Azhar coincidentally) - otherwise it's total blackout.

[steakbake]

Mubarak will be ****ting himself. Mon the Egyptians!

Wonder if the Army will turn?

[Betty Boop]

Do you know they've switched the Internet off now? Only one ISP is still functioning - the one that serves the stock exchange (and Al Azhar coincidentally) - otherwise it's total blackout.

:agree:A countrywide curfew has been imposed, which the people are largely ignoring. There are huge demonstrations in Alexandria now. Revolution is in the air !

[LiverpoolHibs]

Amazing scenes in Yemen and, particularly, Egypt. NDP head offices burnt to the ground. Just look at the retreating police:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEo97iKuZ8w

[Betty Boop]

The US is to review its stand on providing aid to Egypt, in light of unfolding events.

[hibsbollah]

:agree: al Baradei seems a pretty decent individual - and not just by comparison with the destestable Mubarak.

There's massive mobilisation of police and security forces, and I suspect Mubarak isn't giving up without a fight. I really fear there could be serious bloodshed. The West needs to use its influence on Mubarak to convince him his time is up and prevent needless deaths. The leaders of other Arab states will be no help, since they're all crapping themselves in case they are next. Yemen especially.


I wouldnt hold your breath. I heard Blair on the radio this morning doing everything in his power to emphasis the need for continuing 'stability' in Egypt and supporting his pal Mubarak. "There is only one issue in the region" he said, quite bizarrely. (Only one Tony? I had no idea it was all so straightforward). "the need for modernisation stability and progress". I'm sure Blair actually knows very well that the key issue in the region is unrepresentative govt and massive poverty, but since the West is complicit in both these things its probably easier for the massive hypocrite to seek to protect the status quo.

[Betty Boop]

Surely its game over for Western backed dictatorships in the Middle East. Reports of 10 dead and 1000 injured in Cairo.

[essexhibee]

I wonder if the army will turn. Just watched a report on itv. Anyone see the man get reversed over by the polis van? Shocking scene must have been fatal.

[Betty Boop]

The battle to cross the Kasr Al Nile Bridge to Freedom Square.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mC7ZWOkl4o

[(((Fergus)))]

Here's some recent (April-May 2010) public opinion data for Egypt, among other muslim countries. Some of the data seems a bit contradictory but here it is:

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

59 percent say democracy is preferable to any other kind of government
82 percent want stoning for those who commit adultery
77 percent would like to see whippings and hands cut off for robbery
84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion
95 percent say Islam playing a large role in politics is good
85 percent say Islam's current influence in politics is positive (2 percent say negative)
54 percent favour gender segregation in the workplace
20 percent think suicide bombing is often/sometimes justified
70 percent very/somewhat concerned about Islamic extremism in general
61 percent very/somewhat concerned about Islamic extremism in Egypt

Asked if they supported “modernizers” or “Islamists” only 27 percent said modernizers while 59 percent said Islamists.


Country: Egypt
Sample design: Multi-stage cluster sample stratified by all four regions (excluding
Frontier governorates for security reasons – less than 2% of the
population) proportional to population size and urban/rural population
Mode: Face-to-face adults 18 plus
Languages: Arabic
Fieldwork dates: April 12 – May 3, 2010
Sample size: 1,000
Margin of Error: ±4.0 percentage points
Representative: Adult population

[hibsdaft]

democracy eh. works great when imposed from above (B52s at 40,000 ft preferably), but when it comes from below it can become er, problematic?

loving the US message just now as they desperately try to ride two horses moving in opposite directions, "no violence please! lets sort this out peacefully!!!", "mubarak be a good boy and become a democrat after 30 yrs of emergency rule dictorship or we'll stop supplying you the $1.5bn of weapons (sorry, "aid") every year" - the gear that's kept him in power throughout that time.

the hypocrisy is naked, and isn't going unnoticed over there.

34% of world oil supplies pass through the Suez Canal. we could be looking at 1973 all over again in a few weeks time.

[Betty Boop]

The coverage of this on Al Jazeera English live stream is excellent.

[Betty Boop]

The head of intelligence Omar Suleiman has been appointed as Vice President. Military rule on the cards ?

[Big Ed]

The head of intelligence Omar Suleiman has been appointed as Vice President. Military rule on the cards ?

In Egypt, he is seen as a CIA/Mossad stooge. If revolution is in the air; the people are unlikely to tollerate Mubarak's exit if it leads to Suleiman taking over.

[Betty Boop]

In Egypt, he is seen as a CIA/Mossad stooge. If revolution is in the air; the people are unlikely to tollerate Mubarak's exit if it leads to Suleiman taking over.

:agree: Mubarak is playing a dangerous game, taking police off the streets and creating chaos. Egyptians are policing their own neighbourhoods against robbery and looting. I really hope this doesn't end in a bloodbath, and the army continues to hold their fire.

[(((Fergus)))]

Just realised another Arab dictator has been toppled: in Southern Sudan. 99% in favour of independence.

Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt now appearing to say that El Baradei should not represent the opposition. He was already undermined by the Mubarak govt as being unislamic when they published photos of his daughter (who is married to a Christian) in a swimsuit and drinking beer.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TIOU9JDeDlI/AAAAAAAADJ4/pc9Es6FqPz0/s400/elbaradei+alc.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TIOWZMAuJsI/AAAAAAAADKI/TFiwmPgHmWg/s320/elbardaughter.jpg

[Betty Boop]

The Egyptian people should elect their own government without other countries sticking their oar in. They are an intelligent people, and all this talk about 'they don't understand democracy ' is nonsense. Tony Blair the 'Middle East Envoy' talking about 'we must manage change' this morning was turning my stomach.

[(((Fergus)))]

The Egyptian people should elect their own government without other countries sticking their oar in. They are an intelligent people, and all this talk about 'they don't understand democracy ' is nonsense. Tony Blair the 'Middle East Envoy' talking about 'we must manage change' this morning was turning my stomach.

Democracy is about the freedom to change things you don't like, yet 84% of Egyptians believe the state should have the power to kill you if you decide to change your religion from Islam.

Not saying the US or Iran should be sticking their oars in (that's inevitable though), but I wouldn't be too sure about the outcome of this revolution or rather the true 'politics' of Egyptian society just yet.

[steakbake]

I wouldn't take an opinion poll as hard and fast rules of what will happen next.

Ask a section of the UK population a selection of extreme (and unlikely) positions and you'd find relatively similar amounts of people. Bringing back hanging, stopping all immigration etc etc... If you had polling data of what a majority of Briton's think, we'd seem like unreconstructed fascists. The reality is that we're down the middle when it comes to the ballot box.

[Leicester Fan]

If history teaches us anything it's that more often than not in these situations the new govt is as bad or worse than the one it replaces.

[hibsbollah]

Just realised another Arab dictator has been toppled: in Southern Sudan. 99% in favour of independence.

Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt now appearing to say that El Baradei should not represent the opposition. He was already undermined by the Mubarak govt as being unislamic when they published photos of his daughter (who is married to a Christian) in a swimsuit and drinking beer.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TIOU9JDeDlI/AAAAAAAADJ4/pc9Es6FqPz0/s400/elbaradei+alc.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TIOWZMAuJsI/AAAAAAAADKI/TFiwmPgHmWg/s320/elbardaughter.jpg

The Sudan thing is just re-writing geographical carve-ups from Britains imperial past. I dont think its part of the same movement (if there even is such a coherent thing as a movement) thats happening in Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen.

[(((Fergus)))]

The Sudan thing is just re-writing geographical carve-ups from Britains imperial past. I dont think its part of the same movement (if there even is such a coherent thing as a movement) thats happening in Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen.

I know, I just mean it is an interesting coincidence that another Arab dictator is losing power over people/resources. He's facing protests from his subjects in the north too - as part of the current wave. http://slatest.slate.com/id/2283174/

[Betty Boop]

March of a million on the streets of Egypt's cities today. I hope it all goes well !

[khib70]

Democracy is about the freedom to change things you don't like, yet 84% of Egyptians believe the state should have the power to kill you if you decide to change your religion from Islam.

Not saying the US or Iran should be sticking their oars in (that's inevitable though), but I wouldn't be too sure about the outcome of this revolution or rather the true 'politics' of Egyptian society just yet.
Sorry Fergus, but I'm not prepared to write off what looks like a spontaneous popular movement for democratic change on the basis of a single, self-contradictory opinion poll.

It would be a bit off for supporters of Israel like you and I, who have constantly advanced Israel's status as a democracy as something which makes her superior to her undemocratic Arab neighbours, to have a go at an Arab people who are attempting to initiate democratic government in their own country.

There can be many interpretations of what's going on in the Arab world, but "slippery slope to Islamism" still seems to me one of the most unlikely ones on the evidence so far.

I hope today's popular demonstration is both successful and bloodless

[Betty Boop]

Historic and emotional scenes in Tahrir Square and Alexandria. Men and women children and the elderly, all united in a common goal. Egypt will never be the same again.

[Betty Boop]

King Abdullah of Jordan has just dismissed his Government.

[(((Fergus)))]

Sorry Fergus, but I'm not prepared to write off what looks like a spontaneous popular movement for democratic change on the basis of a single, self-contradictory opinion poll.

It would be a bit off for supporters of Israel like you and I, who have constantly advanced Israel's status as a democracy as something which makes her superior to her undemocratic Arab neighbours, to have a go at an Arab people who are attempting to initiate democratic government in their own country.

There can be many interpretations of what's going on in the Arab world, but "slippery slope to Islamism" still seems to me one of the most unlikely ones on the evidence so far.

I hope today's popular demonstration is both successful and bloodless

I wouldn't write it off either but I think it's far from clear what the long-term outcome will be.

[khib70]

Historic and emotional scenes in Tahrir Square and Alexandria. Men and women children and the elderly, all united in a common goal. Egypt will never be the same again.
:agree:

And you simply can't brush aside a movement of that magnitude with brute force - especially when the Army isn't prepared to do it for you. That's what brought down the dictatorships in Romainia, Czechoslovakia and the DDR.

Apparently Mubarak's son and nominated successor has fled the coop for the UK (his mother is Welsh, apparently), no doubt with a fair whack of the national cash and gold reserves in his hold baggage.

It won't be long now.

[steakbake]

The excellent Slavoj Zizek writes in today's Guardian a bit about the "western" worry of what freedom for the Arab peoples will ultimately mean:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/01/egypt-tunisia-revolt

Worth a read, even if you do not agree with it.

[khib70]

The excellent Slavoj Zizek writes in today's Guardian a bit about the "western" worry of what freedom for the Arab peoples will ultimately mean:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/01/egypt-tunisia-revolt

Worth a read, even if you do not agree with it.
Well written piece, but ultimately a "straw man" argument. I haven't detected the huge outpouring of concern from "Western liberals" about the aftermath of the current popular revolts. Some concern has been expressed by isolated individuals, but the main voice of doom has been the Israeli government, which is neither Western nor liberal. Sensible voices in Israel have been much more positive.

There simply isn't enough evidence to make any assumptions about what happens next, and the article has jumped the gun by assuming that anyone is doing so. It's very light on examples, apart from Blair's careless and silly statement.

Where the guy is right is that those who are prophesying an Islamic apocalypse of some kind are doing so from the culturally insulting basis that "Arabs can't handle democracy", because they have some sort of cultural predisposition towards dictatorship and theocratic totalitarianism.

[hibsbollah]

I think whats frustrating the traditional commentators on the middle east (and why there is such a lack of sensible comment about Egypt at the moment) is that things are moving so fast, and the media, and therefore the rest of us, just cant keep up. Is it an anti-Western movement? Does it have an Islamic element? Is it going to address the issue of mass poverty?

The likes of the BBCs Jeremy Bowen are never going to give the watching public an idea of how it feels when a nation of 80 million suddenly decides to down tools and turn on its rulers. He's just not that kind of journalist.

It feels a lot like Tiannemmen Square. Back then, the People's Army promised not to fire on the demonstrators. It was the Chinese 'peoples army', after all. The Egyptian military has made similar promises. It remains to be seen whether they continue to support a real democratic movement, or resort to type.

One thing's for sure, this is what real 'politics' is really all about.

[CropleyWasGod]

Love this..... Fox news right on the ball with their geography.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs244.snc6/179246_10150146292040033_616990032_8310023_4914391 _n.jpg

[Betty Boop]

The military are this morning, calling for and end to demonstrations across the country. A worrying development, with thousands still in the Square, and pro-Mubarak supporters appearing in the crowd. Al Jazeera are reporting that the atmosphere is extremely tense, with feelings running high on both sides.

[Betty Boop]

20,000 pro-Mubarak supporters now in the square in a stand-off, thing could get very ugly.

[hibsbollah]

20,000 pro-Mubarak supporters now in the square in a stand-off, thing could get very ugly.

very nasty scenes on tv now. Pro mubarak groups attacking tahrir square with rocks, lots of injuries. Army doing nothing yet.

[Betty Boop]

very nasty scenes on tv now. Pro mubarak groups attacking tahrir square with rocks, lots of injuries. Army doing nothing yet.

:agree: Very sad ! This is going to end in a bloodbath, apparently they are armed with knives, iron bars, stones and sticks. Al Jazeera reporting that tear gas cannisters have been fired.

[(((Fergus)))]

Here's an article claiming to be the "inside story" revolution. I obviously don't know how accurate it is, but it does tie up with events as they've happened and may help understand them as they unfold:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_story_of_the_egyptian_revo.html

[Betty Boop]

Men on camels and horseback heading for Tahrir Square, unbelievable scenes.

[(((Fergus)))]

Here's one of the vlogs that apparently helped start the revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgjIgMdsEuk

[(((Fergus)))]

Men on camels and horseback heading for Tahrir Square, unbelievable scenes.

where are you watching betty?

[Betty Boop]

where are you watching betty?

Al jazeera English live stream. Apparently its all kicking off in Alexandria and Suez as well.

[hibsbollah]

Mubarak bites back, you dont need the army when you pay goons to do the bullying for you.

[Betty Boop]

Mubarak bites back, you dont need the army when you pay goons to do the bullying for you.

Apparently the pro-Mubarak mob arrived in trucks and lorries driven by security forces.

[khib70]

Apparently the pro-Mubarak mob arrived in trucks and lorries driven by security forces.
:agree:

Memories of Romania, when Caucaescu bussed in thousands of miners to attack pro-democracy demonstrations.

The army needs to make its stance clear and take action against the side which is clearly initiating the violence here.

[khib70]

Al jazeera English live stream. Apparently its all kicking off in Alexandria and Suez as well.
Watching that myself - excellent coverage. Am at work so can't get the sound and its hard to tell which side is which. I assume the mounted mob are pro Mubarak. I hope so because most of them have been pulled off their horses and given a serious kicking.

[Betty Boop]

Watching that myself - excellent coverage. Am at work so can't get the sound and its hard to tell which side is which. I assume the mounted mob are pro Mubarak. I hope so because most of them have been pulled off their horses and given a serious kicking.

The guys on horseback were pulled off the horses, and surprise surprise, they had police ID. These camels can shift eh ! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Watching that myself - excellent coverage. Am at work so can't get the sound and its hard to tell which side is which. I assume the mounted mob are pro Mubarak. I hope so because most of them have been pulled off their horses and given a serious kicking.

its like a very large scale televised football riot. With camels.

[(((Fergus)))]

:agree:

Memories of Romania, when Caucaescu bussed in thousands of miners to attack pro-democracy demonstrations.

The army needs to make its stance clear and take action against the side which is clearly initiating the violence here.

The miner attacks in Romania were after Ceaucescu, although it was Iliescu (communist) who made the call: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineriad

Thank you Betty for the stream.

[(((Fergus)))]

any idea which side is which? one guy just got encircled and is currently getting a doing...

[Betty Boop]

any idea which side is which? one guy just got encircled and is currently getting a doing...

I saw that. Apparently the pro-mob are getting pushed back now. Paving stones are being lobbed, in fact anything that can be used as ammunition.

[hibsbollah]

any idea which side is which? one guy just got encircled and is currently getting a doing...
he's one of the baby crew i think Ferg...

[Betty Boop]

Anybody hear gunfire there ?

[khib70]

Anybody hear gunfire there ?
:agree:
Al Jazeera reporting gunfire heard. Turning very ugly.

[Betty Boop]

:agree:
Al Jazeera reporting gunfire heard. Turning very ugly.

Three army vehicles have been hi-jacked, the military are certainly keeping a low profile.

[hibsbollah]

Three army vehicles have been hi-jacked, the military are certainly keeping a low profile.

wow. Anti govt protestors look like theyre losing ground now.

[(((Fergus)))]

he's one of the baby crew i think Ferg...


Shouldn't laugh but :greengrin

Sandmonkey's tweets:
Watching the egyptian media now is driving me insane. Propaganda & Stupidity overdose!

The TV just annunced that there is a Pro Mubarak million-man-march. This will be hilarious. They managed to get 1000 today.

Clashes in Tahrir square. The egyptian TV claims that hundreds of thousands of protesters are Pro Mubarak.

Clashes, Pro Mubarak people attacking protesters. Tear Gas thrown. Very violent. No Army intervention so far.

Twitter won't work from my phone. Everything else works.

egyptian army is not seperating the people, they r holding the egyptian flag&urging egyptians- who r beating each other- to unite.

Twitter down on all mobiles. web still works.

Camels and Horses used by Pro Mubarak protesters to attack Anti-Mubarak protesters. This is becoming literally a circus.

You can't even make up a movie that would equal this level of insanity.

Ok, it is official, my @Mobinil line has twitter and facebook blocked on it. They work fine on my etisalat line....

This means the regime knows who I am and where I live. My life is now officially in danger.

people are showing on TV holding police ID's from the protesters they just clashed with.

Mubarak has proven to be smarter than all of us, he will not leave. Just watch.

The aim of this is to evacuate the Tahrir square & justify never having protests there Friday, where 1 is scheduled, or ever again.

Authoritarian regimes, watch Mubarak and learn from the master.... Ben Ali must be so jealous he didn't think of this psychotic brilliant plan.

[Betty Boop]

The pro-mob have commandeered a high rise flat, and lobbing rocks down. The pro-mob have definitely got the upper hand. :bitchy:

[hibsbollah]

I know i shouldnt be flippant but the coverage on the bbc has a danny dyer feel to it, i expected jeremy bowen to say 'mubaraks boys have arrived tooled up'. Compulsive viewing though.

[Betty Boop]

The anti-Mubarak supporters are linking arms in the square, as the pro-mob try to storm it.

[bingo70]

The anti-Mubarak supporters are linking arms in the square, as the pro-mob try to storm it.

Boy being interviewed on bbc news saying 15 people been shot.

I'm not sure of exactly whats going on so not going to pretend but started watching the coverage and it's unbelievable scenes, don't think i've ever seen anything like it before

[PeeJay]

Just found myself just thinking it was probably extremely naive of me to believe that a dictator of 30 years would just walk away and hand over power ...

[(((Fergus)))]

muslim brotherhood site claiming that molotov cocktails are being used against demonstrators and that the egyptian museum is on fire.

[hibsbollah]

muslim brotherhood site claiming that molotov cocktails are being used against demonstrators and that the egyptian museum is on fire.

Well the first bit is definitely true, I watched it myself. Anyone portrayed as attacking the Egyptian museum (where Tutankhamun's remains are) would (i imagine) become public enemy number one in Egypt, so its probably a good bit of propaganda by the Brotherhood.

[Betty Boop]

Well the first bit is definitely true, I watched it myself. Anyone portrayed as attacking the Egyptian museum (where Tutankhamun's remains are) would (i imagine) become public enemy number one in Egypt, so its probably a good bit of propaganda by the Brotherhood.

Apparently the fire is at the entrance to the museum. There was damage on Friday at the museum, caused by looters. I thought I heard today that the military were positioned inside the museum, so hopefully there will be no more damage. My daughter and I were at the museum in August, the collection antiquities and treasure is breathtaking. Surely the army could be doing more to protect it, this is Egypt's heritage after all.

[Betty Boop]

The Muslim Brotherhood have now been invited by the government to join in the dialogue. Smacks of desperation !

[hibsbollah]

The Muslim Brotherhood have now been invited by the government to join in the dialogue. Smacks of desperation !


I think its more an attempt by the Intelligence Minister to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood are in some way 'behind' the democracy protests, when all the evidence suggests otherwise. They will try to use the Islamist bogeyman to scare the West into continuing to prop up Mubarak's regime. I'm sure Blair will have something to say on the subject shortly:rolleyes:

Big news in Algeria, where the 19 year old 'state of emergency' is being lifted.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/yemen-syria-algeria-arab-protests?INTCMP=SRCH

[Betty Boop]

I think its more an attempt by the Intelligence Minister to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood are in some way 'behind' the democracy protests, when all the evidence suggests otherwise. They will try to use the Islamist bogeyman to scare the West into continuing to prop up Mubarak's regime. I'm sure Blair will have something to say on the subject shortly:rolleyes:

Big news in Algeria, where the 19 year old 'state of emergency' is being lifted.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/yemen-syria-algeria-arab-protests?INTCMP=SRCH

The Muslim Brotherhood have refused, in any case. Heartbreaking scenes once again today,with 10 killed. Huge day tomorrow after Friday prayers, when massive numbers are expected to turn out. I wonder what dirty tricks the Mubarak Loyal have left up their sleeve ? How do you think this will pan out ?

[(((Fergus)))]

The Muslim Brotherhood have refused, in any case. Heartbreaking scenes once again today,with 10 killed. Huge day tomorrow after Friday prayers, when massive numbers are expected to turn out. I wonder what dirty tricks the Mubarak Loyal have left up their sleeve ? How do you think this will pan out ?

There area also plans for protests on Friday/Saturday in Syria (Damascus, Homs, Alleppo and Qamishli) as well as Syrian embassies in Europe/N America. I wouldn't fancy taking on the Syrian police... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Calls for protests in a number of Middle East countries are circulating on Twitter, including Yemen, February 3, Algeria, February 12, Bahrain, February 14 and Libya, February 17

[hibsbollah]

The Muslim Brotherhood have refused, in any case. Heartbreaking scenes once again today,with 10 killed. Huge day tomorrow after Friday prayers, when massive numbers are expected to turn out. I wonder what dirty tricks the Mubarak Loyal have left up their sleeve ? How do you think this will pan out ?

The Mubarak Loyal:greengrin i like that.
I have no idea... Its obviously on a knife-edge. I think a lot depends on which way the army goes.

[One Day Soon]

I think its more an attempt by the Intelligence Minister to suggest that the Muslim Brotherhood are in some way 'behind' the democracy protests, when all the evidence suggests otherwise. They will try to use the Islamist bogeyman to scare the West into continuing to prop up Mubarak's regime. I'm sure Blair will have something to say on the subject shortly:rolleyes:

Big news in Algeria, where the 19 year old 'state of emergency' is being lifted.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/yemen-syria-algeria-arab-protests?INTCMP=SRCH

He's way under your skin isn't he?

[hibsbollah]

He's way under your skin isn't he?

I suppose so. I was hoping he'd retire gracefully into obscurity, wintering at Berlusconi's villa, summertime on the US tour circuit, that sort of thing. No chance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt

[One Day Soon]

I suppose so. I was hoping he'd retire gracefully into obscurity, wintering at Berlusconi's villa, summertime on the US tour circuit, that sort of thing. No chance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt

He's far too much quality for that.

Anyway shouldn't you be watching Louis Theroux right now? Absolutely hilarious in the blackest of ways.

[hibsbollah]

He's far too much quality for that.

Anyway shouldn't you be watching Louis Theroux right now? Absolutely hilarious in the blackest of ways.

Watched the last half hour. It was indeed top notch black comedy, now being overtaken in the comic stakes by Melanie Phillips on Question Time. My lord, what a crazy woman.

[One Day Soon]

Watched the last half hour. It was indeed top notch black comedy, now being overtaken in the comic stakes by Melanie Phillips on Question Time. My lord, what a crazy woman.

A lot of people make a living from that sort of thing you know. Being barking in public.

[Betty Boop]

Thousands packed into the square, for the 'Day of Departure'. Hope they get their wish.

[khib70]

There area also plans for protests on Friday/Saturday in Syria (Damascus, Homs, Alleppo and Qamishli) as well as Syrian embassies in Europe/N America. I wouldn't fancy taking on the Syrian police... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Calls for protests in a number of Middle East countries are circulating on Twitter, including Yemen, February 3, Algeria, February 12, Bahrain, February 14 and Libya, February 17

Nope. and I don't think somehow that al Jazeera will provide the same excellent coverage of the protests as they have done in Egypt. They're legendary for having a strangely uncritical attitude to Assad and Syria.

That said it's only fair to say again that their coverage of the Egyptian popular demonstrations is absolutely in the best traditions of rolling news coverage.

Let's hope that today sees Mubarak's private jet taking him and his entourage out of the picture, and that no further lives are lost.

[Betty Boop]

Nope. and I don't think somehow that al Jazeera will provide the same excellent coverage of the protests as they have done in Egypt. They're legendary for having a strangely uncritical attitude to Assad and Syria.

That said it's only fair to say again that their coverage of the Egyptian popular demonstrations is absolutely in the best traditions of rolling news coverage.

Let's hope that today sees Mubarak's private jet taking him and his entourage out of the picture, and that no further lives are lost.

Fantastic coverage, considering their bureau in Cairo has been shut down, journalists arrested and beaten up, and their equipment confiscated. In saying that foreign journalists are also being beaten up and intimidated. Hats off to them all! :not worth

[khib70]

Fantastic coverage, considering their bureau in Cairo has been shut down, journalists arrested and beaten up, and their equipment confiscated. In saying that foreign journalists are also being beaten up and intimidated. Hats off to them all! :not worth
Totally agree. Good piece in the Times today giving first hand account of the maltreatment of their (Egyptian/American) Cairo correspondent and other journalists yesterday by government stooges. (Can't link, Times is a pay site now)

And by the by, a good piece from Haaretz, illustrating that not all Israeli's share Netanyahu's blinkered pessimism......

http://http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/change-is-coming-to-egypt-whether-israel-likes-it-or-not-1.341181

[Betty Boop]

Totally agree. Good piece in the Times today giving first hand account of the maltreatment of their (Egyptian/American) Cairo correspondent and other journalists yesterday by government stooges. (Can't link, Times is a pay site now)

And by the by, a good piece from Haaretz, illustrating that not all Israeli's share Netanyahu's blinkered pessimism......

http://http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/change-is-coming-to-egypt-whether-israel-likes-it-or-not-1.341181

Fantastic scenes in the square, however the Mubarak loyal are on the 6th October Bridge wearing crash helmets. Did you see the pro-democracy supporters yesterday wearing cooking pots as helmets ? :greengrin

[khib70]

Fantastic scenes in the square, however the Mubarak loyal are on the 6th October Bridge wearing crash helmets. Did you see the pro-democracy supporters yesterday wearing cooking pots as helmets ? :greengrin
:agree:

Plus ceiling tiles, flowerpots, bags of rice and one guy had a loaf of bread taped to each ear.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think it's important that we all take a few minutes to watch and reflect upon Glenn Beck's analysis of events in the Middle East. He truly is a prophet for our age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7GPPpsw6g

Seriously though, this is ****ing mental/hilarious.

[Removed]

O
I think it's important that we all take a few minutes to watch and reflect upon Glenn Beck's analysis of events in the Middle East. He truly is a prophet for our age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7GPPpsw6g

Seriously though, this is ****ing mental/hilarious.

:confused: what's hilarious about it?

[hibsbollah]

O

:confused: what's hilarious about it?

'Chooneeza' and 'Frenemies' for a start:agree:
I think FalkirkHibs would like it.

[Removed]

'Chooneeza' and 'Frenemies' for a start:agree:
I think FalkirkHibs would like it.

I didn't see anything in there I disagree with. I think the whole middle east is a ticking bomb.

[hibsbollah]

I didn't see anything in there I disagree with. I think the whole middle east is a ticking bomb.

So its all going to spread to Britain, France and Italy as part of a wider Islamic caliphate? :flying:Barking.

[Removed]

So its all going to spread to Britain, France and Italy as part of a wider Islamic caliphate? :flying:Barking.

So the muslims don't want to turn the UK into a muslim country? Open your eyes, or just go down to Yorkshire.

[One Day Soon]

So the muslims don't want to turn the UK into a muslim country? Open your eyes, or just go down to Yorkshire.

Oh and dear.

[Removed]

Oh and dear.

So you been there lately?

[The Green Goblin]

It`s not been posted on here, but I read this excellent Robert Fisk piece/interview with El Baradei with great interest. Fisk left with some doubts and suspicions from their conversation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mohamed-elbaradei-the-man-who-would-be-president-2200155.html


GG

[CropleyWasGod]

I didn't see anything in there I disagree with. I think the whole middle east is a ticking bomb.

What about his assertion that Hamas is going to take over Egypt?

And the one about the UK being on fire?

That the majority of Muslims in the UK are radical?

The fact that this is being aired to millions of Americans, claiming to be the truth, is the scariest part for me.

[Removed]

So the Sunnis and sheites are best of pals then?

If you don't think that the middle east is a ticking bomb then that worries me.

There are big parts of Halifax where my in-laws live that are no go areas where even the police don't go. It will only get worse imo.

[CropleyWasGod]

So the Sunnis and sheites are best of pals then?

If you don't think that the middle east is a ticking bomb then that worries me.

There are big parts of Halifax where my in-laws live that are no go areas. It will only get worse imo.

Not denying that they are enemies. But Beck's lies and misinformation... and they are, particularly about the UK... do nothing to help. Indeed, they perpetuate the ignorance that the US public, in particular, has about the situation. They also feed the cause of the extremists, on both sides.

[One Day Soon]

I think it's important that we all take a few minutes to watch and reflect upon Glenn Beck's analysis of events in the Middle East. He truly is a prophet for our age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7GPPpsw6g

Seriously though, this is ****ing mental/hilarious.

Right, watched it now. I think there is some pretty good value to be had there. I mean why invest lots of scarce licence fee cash in developing new comedy when we could just buy this stuff pretty cheap from Fox and screen it in prime time?

Did I miss the pro-democracy Islamic riots in the UK he was referring to? I've had a nasty wee cold for the last few days so I haven't seen too many news bulletins. Are our cities ablaze?

[hibsbollah]

It`s not been posted on here, but I read this excellent Robert Fisk piece/interview with El Baradei with great interest. Fisk left with some doubts and suspicions from their conversation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mohamed-elbaradei-the-man-who-would-be-president-2200155.html


GG

I like Robert Fisk a lot. The Great War for Civilisation is brilliant, and he knows his subject completely. I'm not sure what that interview tells us about El Baradei, except it makes Fisk feel a bit uneasy about him.

[CropleyWasGod]

Right, watched it now. I think there is some pretty good value to be had there. I mean why invest lots of scarce licence fee cash in developing new comedy when we could just buy this stuff pretty cheap from Fox and screen it in prime time?

Did I miss the pro-democracy Islamic riots in the UK he was referring to? I've had a nasty wee cold for the last few days so I haven't seen too many news bulletins. Are our cities ablaze?

It's easy to laugh, and I am trying.... but I'm also freaking raging at it.

[One Day Soon]

So the Sunnis and sheites are best of pals then?

If you don't think that the middle east is a ticking bomb then that worries me.

There are big parts of Halifax where my in-laws live that are no go areas where even the police don't go. It will only get worse imo.

But the suavely foaming at the mouth Mr Beck didn't say "there are big parts of Halifax where 65bd's in-laws live that are no go areas".

He said that England and then the UK had riots. In Egypt they are confronting each other in the public squares daily, throwing molotovs, attacking on horse and camel back, shooting each other and rioting. That's not happeining here is it? In fact nothing remotely like it is happening here.

That's because he's taking some facts and synthesising them into a false prospectus to suit his own warped political view of the world. Karl Rove must be very pleased.

[hibsbollah]

It's easy to laugh, and I am trying.... but I'm also freaking raging at it.

Watch this instead...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY
But with FOXNews, who needs satire?

[CropleyWasGod]

Watch this instead...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY
But with FOXNews, who needs satire?

Love that, but don't let Fox get a hold of it. Play it in Bum****, Missouri, and they'll be hanging Aussies from lamp posts.

[One Day Soon]

Watch this instead...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY
But with FOXNews, who needs satire?

Sooper stuff. Difficult to top The Day Today but actually Fox News is pretty much it, with no sense of irony and equally out there.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sooper stuff. Difficult to top The Day Today but actually Fox News is pretty much it, with no sense of irony and equally out there.

Saw a pic on Facebook the other day of a map of the Middle East on Fox News. Egypt had been moved to Iraq. :rolleyes: Possibly photoshopped, of course.... but you could see it happening for real.

[Betty Boop]

Fox News are reporting that there has been an assassination attempt, on vice president Omar Suleiman, killing two bodyguards.

[The Green Goblin]

I like Robert Fisk a lot. The Great War for Civilisation is brilliant, and he knows his subject completely. I'm not sure what that interview tells us about El Baradei, except it makes Fisk feel a bit uneasy about him.

Yes, The Great War for Civilisation is something of a lifetime masterpiece. It took me almost a year to read it, on and off, and it`s funny to see Fisk in interviews expressing self-deprecating sympathy for people who have read it.:wink:

As for the interview, well, if this is the man who many people say is going to replace the outgoing Mubarak, a rare personal glimpse of what he is about has some value. Amidst the chaos that`s happening right now, it`s easy to jump on a bandwagon and proclaim someone the new saviour, as many might tend to do, which makes a peek at tells about his character and views and attitude doubly important, doesn`t it? There are few alive more knowledgable about the Middle East than Robert Fisk, and I put quite a lot of stock in his judgement.

GG

[CropleyWasGod]

Fox News are reporting that there has been an assassination attempt, on vice president Omar Suleiman, killing two bodyguards.

Fox News, eh? :cool2: Perfect timing, Betty lol

[Betty Boop]

Fox News, eh? :cool2: Perfect timing, Betty lol

:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Huge number out again in Tahrir Square, great resilience shown by the Egyptian people in keeping up the momentum. Meanwhile there has been a gas pipeline blown up in the Sinai, which has halted the supply to Israel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/05/egyptian-gas-explosion-sinai-peninsula

[LiverpoolHibs]

O

:confused: what's hilarious about it?


So the muslims don't want to turn the UK into a muslim country? Open your eyes, or just go down to Yorkshire.

I was fairly certain when posting the video that there wouldn't be a constituency for Beck's lunatic racist ravings on here. It turns out that was a bit stupid.

Moving on...

The excellent Rashid Khalidi's take on events. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx46E2ORaW8)

[khib70]

So the muslims don't want to turn the UK into a muslim country? Open your eyes, or just go down to Yorkshire.

And which parts of Yorkshire are currently under Islamic law? The worst problem in Yorkshire is the prevalence of brain dead BNP/EDL knuckle draggers all over the place. Half an hour in a pub in Dewsbury would make you think you were in a Munich beer hall circa 1923.

This is pathetic racist scaremongering. You and Glenn Beck would get on well

[CropleyWasGod]

I was fairly certain when posting the video that there wouldn't be a constituency for Beck's lunatic racist ravings on here. It turns out that was a bit stupid.

Moving on...

The excellent Rashid Khalidi's take on events. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx46E2ORaW8)

No legitimacy in that video at all.. the boy has a KH in his name. :rolleyes: (oops, just noticed that KHibs has just posted.. sorry!)

Seriously, some good stuff in there. Particularly about the Muslim Brotherhood, and also Israel's reaction to it all.

[khib70]

No legitimacy in that video at all.. the boy has a KH in his name. :rolleyes: (oops, just noticed that KHibs has just posted.. sorry!)

Seriously, some good stuff in there. Particularly about the Muslim Brotherhood, and also Israel's reaction to it all.
:na na:

[Betty Boop]

Mubarak has resigned..........as leader of the NDP, along with his son and various top dogs.

[Betty Boop]

Mubarak's hired thugs.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,743537,00.html

[(((Fergus)))]

Mubarak's hired thugs.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,743537,00.html

there's yer man with the cooking pot :greengrin

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-176563-galleryV9-mzie.jpg

[One Day Soon]

there's yer man with the cooking pot :greengrin

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-176563-galleryV9-mzie.jpg

Never mind that - quality though it is - what's he got tucked under his arm?

[Betty Boop]

there's yer man with the cooking pot :greengrin

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-176563-galleryV9-mzie.jpg

:faf:

[Sir David Gray]

As many people on here will know, I have a keen interest in the Middle East. I'm not surprised at all at what has been happening in Egypt and the wider Middle East region over the past few weeks.

The events in Egypt, though, are certainly of the greatest significance to me. Hosni Mubarak may be a dictator and an evil man, I can't really give an opinion on that either way because I don't know an awful lot about the internal politics of Egypt. If he is as bad as a lot of his opponents have made him out to be in recent weeks then I don't blame them for wanting change.

However, whilst I sympathise with any person who lives in a country that does not have the freedoms that we enjoy in this country, I would hesitate to celebrate his eventual departure as president.

For the past 30 years, Hosni Mubarak has pretty much been the only real ally that Israel has had in that region. Other than Egypt, the Israelis are surrounded by nations that, at best, refuse to recognise them or deal with them in any way and some who are openly hostile towards them and make threats to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

Egypt has such a massive influence in the region and their current position towards the supposed "peace process" is highly significant. Egypt doesn't like Hamas, any more than Israel does.

Now I don't know if the Muslim Brotherhood will play any part in forming the new government, time will tell on that one, but even if they don't, I find it hard to believe that any new president of Egypt will be as friendly towards Israel as Mubarak has been since 1981.

A hostile government just over the border in Cairo could have serious consequences for the entire Middle East and make things even more unstable than they already are.

As for the YouTube video of the Glenn Beck analysis that Hibsbollah said I would like, I agree with some of it and think that other parts of it is complete hysteria. I think he's correct to draw some parallels between what is happening just now in Egypt and the Iranian Islamic Revolution in 1979.

Whilst there are undoubtedly some differences between the two events, for one the lack of a clear successor to Mubarak in Egypt in the way that there was in Iran in '79 with Ayatollah Khomenei leading the revolution against the Shah, Hosni Mubarak and the Shah of Iran are/were both secular leaders and if the Muslim Brotherhood are to be involved in some way, there is no doubt that Egypt has the potential to follow in the footsteps of Iran, albeit the Sunni version.

Beck's prediction of Europe becoming part of a new Islamic Caliphate is slightly over dramatic to say the least but that is the stated aim of the Muslim Brotherhood, in fact it's the stated aim of most Islamic political groups. They want to dominate and make Islam the number one religion all over the world. It happened in the past when Islamic rule spread as far as present day Spain and Portugal and parts of France and Andorra, so I suppose it is always possible that something similar could happen again, if the circumstances were correct.

I am not surprised at all with what is happening in the Middle East at the moment. It is a region that, in my opinion, will never be at peace. I have continually said this in every thread related to this subject and nothing that has happened in the past few years has changed my mind on this, in fact if anything, it's actually made my mind up even more.

In my opinion, people are kidding themselves on when they go on about attempting to bring peace and stability to the region as there is no solution to the problems facing the Middle East and things will only get a whole lot worse.

It's just a matter of when.

[khib70]

As many people on here will know, I have a keen interest in the Middle East. I'm not surprised at all at what has been happening in Egypt and the wider Middle East region over the past few weeks.

The events in Egypt, though, are certainly of the greatest significance to me. Hosni Mubarak may be a dictator and an evil man, I can't really give an opinion on that either way because I don't know an awful lot about the internal politics of Egypt. If he is as bad as a lot of his opponents have made him out to be in recent weeks then I don't blame them for wanting change.

However, whilst I sympathise with any person who lives in a country that does not have the freedoms that we enjoy in this country, I would hesitate to celebrate his eventual departure as president.

For the past 30 years, Hosni Mubarak has pretty much been the only real ally that Israel has had in that region. Other than Egypt, the Israelis are surrounded by nations that, at best, refuse to recognise them or deal with them in any way and some who are openly hostile towards them and make threats to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

Egypt has such a massive influence in the region and their current position towards the supposed "peace process" is highly significant. Egypt doesn't like Hamas, any more than Israel does.

Now I don't know if the Muslim Brotherhood will play any part in forming the new government, time will tell on that one, but even if they don't, I find it hard to believe that any new president of Egypt will be as friendly towards Israel as Mubarak has been since 1981.

A hostile government just over the border in Cairo could have serious consequences for the entire Middle East and make things even more unstable than they already are.

As for the YouTube video of the Glenn Beck analysis that Hibsbollah said I would like, I agree with some of it and think that other parts of it is complete hysteria. I think he's correct to draw some parallels between what is happening just now in Egypt and the Iranian Islamic Revolution in 1979.

Whilst there are undoubtedly some differences between the two events, for one the lack of a clear successor to Mubarak in Egypt in the way that there was in Iran in '79 with Ayatollah Khomenei leading the revolution against the Shah, Hosni Mubarak and the Shah of Iran are/were both secular leaders and if the Muslim Brotherhood are to be involved in some way, there is no doubt that Egypt has the potential to follow in the footsteps of Iran, albeit the Sunni version.

Beck's prediction of Europe becoming part of a new Islamic Caliphate is slightly over dramatic to say the least but that is the stated aim of the Muslim Brotherhood, in fact it's the stated aim of most Islamic political groups. They want to dominate and make Islam the number one religion all over the world. It happened in the past when Islamic rule spread as far as present day Spain and Portugal and parts of France and Andorra, so I suppose it is always possible that something similar could happen again, if the circumstances were correct.

I am not surprised at all with what is happening in the Middle East at the moment. It is a region that, in my opinion, will never be at peace. I have continually said this in every thread related to this subject and nothing that has happened in the past few years has changed my mind on this, in fact if anything, it's actually made my mind up even more.

In my opinion, people are kidding themselves on when they go on about attempting to bring peace and stability to the region as there is no solution to the problems facing the Middle East and things will only get a whole lot worse.

It's just a matter of when.

Much of this argument reminds me of the "he's a sonofabitch but he's our sonofabitch" line used to justify US support for Central American dictators in the 80's.

There definitely won't ever be peace in the Middle East if supporters of Israel advocate the population of Egypt living under a dictatorship, provided that dictatorship is in some way amenable to Israel. It's not for Israel to decide who governs Egypt. By your argument, you would presumably support a popular revolt in Syria against the equally nasty Assad, because he is implacably anti-Israel and bankrolls Hamas?

Any notion that the popular uprising in Egypt is the slippery slope to a global caliphate, exists purely in the diseased minds of people like Glen Beck. The Muslim Brotherhood may not be everyone's idea of 24 hour party people, but they're a long way removed from the Taleban or the Iranian mullahs.

I don't know if there ever will be peace in the region. I hope so. But one of the things that can help bring it about is mutual trust. That means trusting the people of Egypt to make democratic choices for themselves. And raising the spectre of the Moorish conquest of Europe in mediaeval times is old hat and a bit pathetic, really. I assume you have heard of the Crusades?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Much of this argument reminds me of the "he's a sonofabitch but he's our sonofabitch" line used to justify US support for Central American dictators in the 80's.

There definitely won't ever be peace in the Middle East if supporters of Israel advocate the population of Egypt living under a dictatorship, provided that dictatorship is in some way amenable to Israel. It's not for Israel to decide who governs Egypt. By your argument, you would presumably support a popular revolt in Syria against the equally nasty Assad, because he is implacably anti-Israel and bankrolls Hamas?

Any notion that the popular uprising in Egypt is the slippery slope to a global caliphate, exists purely in the diseased minds of people like Glen Beck. The Muslim Brotherhood may not be everyone's idea of 24 hour party people, but they're a long way removed from the Taleban or the Iranian mullahs.

I don't know if there ever will be peace in the region. I hope so. But one of the things that can help bring it about is mutual trust. That means trusting the people of Egypt to make democratic choices for themselves. And raising the spectre of the Moorish conquest of Europe in mediaeval times is old hat and a bit pathetic, really. I assume you have heard of the Crusades?

Good post.

Fantastic scenes over the weekend. Coptic Christians create a protective ring around Muslims at prayer in Tahrir Square (prayer meetings have been particularly open to attack from the security services).

http://yfrog.com/gy39692910j

http://yfrog.com/hsoqp2j

Then Muslims did the same for a Coptic service in Tahrir square which was followed by joint prayers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_AQs0UqjRk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=185217632&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=LatestVideosUS&videoChannel=1&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FUSVideoLatest+%28Vi deo+%2F+US+%2F+Latest+Video%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[khib70]

Good post.

Fantastic scenes over the weekend. Coptic Christians create a protective ring around Muslims at prayer in Tahrir Square (prayer meetings have been particularly open to attack from the security services).

http://yfrog.com/gy39692910j

http://yfrog.com/hsoqp2j

Then Muslims did the same for a Coptic service in Tahrir square which was followed by joint prayers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_AQs0UqjRk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=185217632&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=LatestVideosUS&videoChannel=1&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FUSVideoLatest+%28Vi deo+%2F+US+%2F+Latest+Video%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Thanks

These are indeed remarkable events. Never seen anything quite like them. The next few days will be crucial. Mubarak's latest stunt of handing out a pay rise to public sector workers reeks of desperation, though.

[Peevemor]

Thanks

These are indeed remarkable events. Never seen anything quite like them. The next few days will be crucial. Mubarak's latest stunt of handing out a pay rise to public sector workers reeks of desperation, though.

That reminds of the last French presidential elections. A few days before the final vote, Jean Marie Le Pen (National Front) promised an amnesty on all driving licence penalty points and to increase motorway speed limits. Thankfully it didn't work.

[(((Fergus)))]

Some jokes currently doing the rounds in Egypt (from Ma'an):

At Tahrir Square, one sign says "[Mubarak:] Leave, I miss my wife," while a second man proclaimed, "Leave already, my arm is hurting."
----
When it started raining in Tahrir Square, here were the reactions from various groups:

Muslim Brotherhood: No talk with system until rain stops
[Opposition leader] ElBaradai: Regime is fully responsible for rain in At-Tahrir Square
[Opposition party] April 6 Movement: Mubarak promised us safety, but he sent the rain to sink us
Al-Jazeera: Our correspondent has informed us that thugs are responsible for rain falls
Protesters: We caught rain drops and identified them as belonging to the Interior Ministry
[Government]Nile News Channel: What the traitor channels are broadcasting is not true, there is no rain in At-Tahrir Square.
----
Police are in the service of people; they boiled the water before spraying the protesters.
----
A group of surgeons went to Egypt to make an operation of a one of kind conjoined twins called Hosni Mubarak - and the throne.
----
Army commander to Hosni Mubarak: "Everything has come to an end, you should write a farewell speech for the people."

Mubarak: "Oh! Where are they going?"
----
After the "Friday of Rage," the "Sunday of Martyrs”, and the "Week of Resistance," Mubarak might step down when it all rolled around to "Resurrection day."
----
Mubarak died and met the late presidents Anwar Sadat and Gamal Abdel Nasser in the afterlife. They asked him: Poisoned or assassinated? He replied: Neither, Facebook!

[Leicester Fan]

What a hoot.

[Betty Boop]

As strikes are spreading across the country, and Tahrir Square had the largest number of protestors yet, Omar Suleiman has threatened to impose martial law.
The army now appear to be involved in the detention and torture of hundreds of anti-Mubarak protestors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/09/egypt-army-detentions-torture-accused

[Betty Boop]

Live statement from Mubarak. He has not stepped down, and stated he will stay till September. A statement from the military to follow.

[khib70]

Live statement from Mubarak. He has not stepped down, and stated he will stay till September. A statement from the military to follow.
This doesn't sound good at all. The military's next move is crucial. Hopefully the protesters will stand their ground

[Betty Boop]

This doesn't sound good at all. The military's next move is crucial. Hopefully the protesters will stand their ground

Something strange is going on. Before Mubarak made his speech, an army general addressed the crowd, and told them all their demands would be met. As you can imagine the crowd were euphoric, only to be let down once again. Al Jazeera are reporting the protestors are marching to the State Television building. Omar Suleiman is making a live broadcast there now. Apparently Mubarak has delegated responsibility to him.

[Big Ed]

Something strange is going on. Before Mubarak made his speech, an army general addressed the crowd, and told them all their demands would be met. As you can imagine the crowd were euphoric, only to be let down once again. Al Jazeera are reporting the protestors are marching to the State Television building. Omar Suleiman is making a live broadcast there now. Apparently Mubarak has delegated responsibility to him.

Obama stated earlier "What is absolutely clear is we are witnessing history unfold."
That suggests that the US has once again misread the situation. I find that extraordinary and an indication that the only thing that is certain in all of this, is that nothing is certain.

[Betty Boop]

Obama stated earlier "What is absolutely clear is we are witnessing history unfold."
That suggests that the US has once again misread the situation. I find that extraordinary and an indication that the only thing that is certain in all of this, is that nothing is certain.
Mubarak in his speech more or less, told foreign powers to butt out, and also warned against satellite stations causing unrest among the people.:rolleyes:
Reports are that there is a split in the military. I feel for the Egyptian people, 17 days of protests, bloodshed and now strikes across the country, and still Mubara is there. I wonder what tomorrow will bring ? Apparently there is now also growing unrest in Saudi Arabia.

[Big Ed]

Mubarak in his speech more or less, told foreign powers to butt out, and also warned against satellite stations causing unrest among the people.:rolleyes:
Reports are that there is a split in the military. I feel for the Egyptian people, 17 days of protests, bloodshed and now strikes across the country, and still Mubara is there. I wonder what tomorrow will bring ? Apparently there is now also growing unrest in Saudi Arabia.

What I find fascinating about this Arab unrest, particularly in North Africa, is that it has been orchestated by the people; by which I mean, not by Political Parties, Trade Unions or Redical Activists.
The Egyptian protesters won't be satisfied with Suleiman simply replacing Mubarak, because they appear to have a common goal of a desire for change. What intrigues me is - what is the "glue" which holds them all together?

[khib70]

Mubarak in his speech more or less, told foreign powers to butt out, and also warned against satellite stations causing unrest among the people.:rolleyes:
Reports are that there is a split in the military. I feel for the Egyptian people, 17 days of protests, bloodshed and now strikes across the country, and still Mubara is there. I wonder what tomorrow will bring ? Apparently there is now also growing unrest in Saudi Arabia.
Presumably the foreign powers Mubarak wants to butt out don't include Saudi Arabia, who have offered to underwrite any loss of US aid to Egypt, and whose King has personally read the riot act to Obama, warning him not to side openly with the people.

As you say, though, things are stirring in Saudi. And not before time. Egypt at least has some pretence of modernity and a democratic structure. Saudi is a mediaeval, theocratic sheikdom.

[CropleyWasGod]

What I find fascinating about this Arab unrest, particularly in North Africa, is that it has been orchestated by the people; by which I mean, not by Political Parties, Trade Unions or Redical Activists.
The Egyptian protesters won't be satisfied with Suleiman simply replacing Mubarak, because they appear to have a common goal of a desire for change. What intrigues me is - what is the "glue" which holds them all together?

It's the old cliche "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", isn't it? A common enemy makes for lots of , apparently, strange alliances. The worry, or intrigue, is how it will all pan out once Mubarak has gone. But then, that's that old buggar called democracy, innit?

[Betty Boop]

The army have now said that they are backing Mubarak.There is a tense stand-off at the barricades, where the protestors are facing down the army. There are also protests at the Presidential Palace, and the State TV station. Meantime Mubarakhas left for Sharm EL Sheikh with his wife and family.


http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8083/walklikeanegyptian.jpg

[PeeJay]

MUBARAK steps down!

[hibsbollah]

:faf:

He'sGONE. Big party in cairo tonight.

[CropleyWasGod]

Right, guys... that's two of the most stable Arab states sorted.

Who's next?

Anyone fancy a go at the Sauds?

[Big Ed]

It's the old cliche "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", isn't it? A common enemy makes for lots of , apparently, strange alliances. The worry, or intrigue, is how it will all pan out once Mubarak has gone. But then, that's that old buggar called democracy, innit?

Well Mubarak has gone now and the real intrigue will begin.
I think that the enemy's enemy cliche might be an underestimation of the magnitude of what has happened so far.
There appears to be no obvious leader in all of this, no central figure speaking on behalf of the protesters: it must be driving the media nuts!! :greengrin
If a central figure with apparent mass appeal were to emerge, then he would be the one to be negotiated with (and subsequently pressured). As yet that is not the case, so the voice of the people has yet to be silenced.

[One Day Soon]

It's the old cliche "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", isn't it? A common enemy makes for lots of , apparently, strange alliances. The worry, or intrigue, is how it will all pan out once Mubarak has gone. But then, that's that old buggar called democracy, innit?

That's very far from certain. Probably not even likely.

[NaeTechnoHibby]

Right, guys... that's two of the most stable Arab states sorted.

Who's next?

Anyone fancy a go at the Sauds?

Well, I would imagine the OIL stuff might decide that :rolleyes:

I have been to Egypt (1986) and it was a really forward looking country and I don't doubt these youngsters/oldies know what they want :agree:

It willnae be the talibanareus though :agree:

Might be a problem for Israel but the Egyptian milliatary probably funded by the US & UK and EU ?? That might be not so much of a problem :agree:

Would anyone of these Kids/Oldies want there nation to go backwards ??

Don't think so :agree:

[Betty Boop]

He'sGONE. Big party in cairo tonight.

What a fantastic day for the Egyptian people ! :thumbsup: I'm overjoyed for them, emotional scenes all over Egypt tonight ! :flag:

[Betty Boop]

Switzerland has frozen the assets of Mubarak, his wife and family.

[hibsbollah]

Switzerland has frozen the assets of Mubarak, his wife and family.

I heard the figure of 70 BILLION DOLLARS being mentioned as the sum he's suspected to have siphoned out of the country, which is enough to pay off Egypt's entire national debt. Hopefully more banks will follow Switzerlands lead.

[Big Ed]

I heard the figure of 70 BILLION DOLLARS being mentioned as the sum he's suspected to have siphoned out of the country, which is enough to pay off Egypt's entire national debt. Hopefully more banks will follow Switzerlands lead.

I heard that figure too and then I thought "that can't be right"
On looking up the Forbes List of Billionaires, that would put him in at Richest Man in the World, by $20BN.
Still; Tony Blair says he's a good guy. :hmmm:

[One Day Soon]

I heard that figure too and then I thought "that can't be right"
On looking up the Forbes List of Billionaires, that would put him in at Richest Man in the World, by $20BN.
Still; Tony Blair says he's a good guy. :hmmm:

Really, when?

[hibsbollah]

I heard that figure too and then I thought "that can't be right"
On looking up the Forbes List of Billionaires, that would put him in at Richest Man in the World, by $20BN.
Still; Tony Blair says he's a good guy. :hmmm:

I mentioned Blair's interview 2 weeks ago when the rebellion started, in which he was unswerving in his support for Mubarak. Its suddenly all gone quiet, poor Hosni must be wondering where all his old friends are hiding. Without wanting to look backwards, the UK, and the US need to examine the policy of successive governments of propping up this and other tyrannous regimes for so long.

[hibsbollah]

Really, when?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt

This refers to the CNN interview with that Piers Morgan character. There was also an interview on the Today programme a few days earlier where Blair said similar things and described his relationship with Mubarak as 'good friends' and 'close'.

[Betty Boop]

I heard that figure too and then I thought "that can't be right"
On looking up the Forbes List of Billionaires, that would put him in at Richest Man in the World, by $20BN.
Still; Tony Blair says he's a good guy. :hmmm:

Tony classes Mubarak as a close personal friend, and has been known to use his home in Sharm El Sheikh for holidays. :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt

This refers to the CNN interview with that Piers Morgan character. There was also an interview on the Today programme a few days earlier where Blair said similar things and described his relationship with Mubarak as 'good friends' and 'close'.

There must be more than this because anyone who claimed that Blair said Mubarak was 'a good guy' on the basis of this article would either be quite deliberately twisting the truth or just plain misreading what Blair said.

In the article you link to he is quoted as saying:

"Where you stand on him depends on whether you've worked with him from the outside or on the inside. I've worked with him on the Middle East peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians so this is somebody I'm constantly in contact with and working with and on that issue, I have to say, he's been immensely courageous and a force for good," he said.

"Inside Egypt, and I have many Egyptian friends, it's clear that there's been a huge desire for change."

"I don't think the west should be the slightest bit embarrassed about the fact that it's been working with Mubarak over the peace process but at the same time it's been urging change in Egypt," he said.

"It's perfectly natural for those from the outside to want to support this movement for change at the same time as saying let's be careful about this and make sure that what happens in this process of change is something that ends in free and fair elections and a democratic system of government and it doesn't get taken over or channelled in to a different direction that is at odds with what the people of Egypt want."

"I don't think there's a majority for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. On the other hand, what you've got to watch is that they are extremely well-organised and well-funded whereas those people who are out on the street at the moment, many of them will be extremely well-intentioned people but they're not organised in political parties yet. So one of the issues in the transition is to give time for those political parties to get themselves properly organised."

"People want a different system of government. They're going to get it. The question is what emerges from that. In particular I think the key challenge for us is how do we help partner this process of change and help manage it in such a way that what comes out of it is open minded, fair, democratic government."

Needless to say the New Labour hating Guardian chooses to play it as deceitfully and misleadingly as anything in the right wing media by putting an out of context quote into the title of the article saying: "Tony Blair: Mubarak is 'immensely courageous and a force for good'"

Maybe Blair regards him as a friend, maybe he has stayed at his holiday home - maybe. I have no idea if that is true. He does not however give Mubarak unqualified praise in the article quoted. In fact he says all the right things about Egypt.

[One Day Soon]

I mentioned Blair's interview 2 weeks ago when the rebellion started, in which he was unswerving in his support for Mubarak. Its suddenly all gone quiet, poor Hosni must be wondering where all his old friends are hiding. Without wanting to look backwards, the UK, and the US need to examine the policy of successive governments of propping up this and other tyrannous regimes for so long.

I thought that supporting regime change was regarded as unacceptable these days? Saddam Hussein was considerably worse than Mubarak was he not?

[hibsbollah]

I thought that supporting regime change was regarded as unacceptable these days? Saddam Hussein was considerably worse than Mubarak was he not?

I'm not a pacifist, sometimes you need to intervene militarily where there is consensus to do so. We're not talking about 'regime change' though, we're talking about actively supporting despots.

I can read what he said in the CNN interview, and although its couched in diplomatic language, its implicit what he's saying; you should support the incumbent because he's a stable, force for good. Look at the context and the timing, and note the absence of any words of support for the protestors and their aims. Blair isnt an idiot, one thing he does well is media management. He knows how what he says will be picked up, particularly in the Arab world.

I dont have the link to the Radio 4 interview (you'll just have to trust me:greengrin) but he was clear about his relationship with Mubarak, he described them as 'close'.

You're right about the Guardian though, they were the only UK newspaper outlet to pick up the comments, either the Radio 4 ones or on CNN. I'd suggest thats as much to do with the unwillingness of other outlets to talk about Egypt in terms of a previously western client state. 'Western-backed' is normally supposed to mean 'democratic', and the one thing the media likes is a simple narrative thats easy to follow.

I'm not engaging in a Blair-bashing exercise, its a problem of successive Western governments all over the world, Latin America being a case in point. You back unpleasant regimes when its in the national interest to do so. The problem with that approach is it makes it harder to take the moral high ground when you do decide to intervene on behalf of similar regimes elsewhere. We've never had a consistent approach.

The 'domino effect' was dreamed up over 50 years ago, and it still affects our debate now, just watch Glen Beck on Fox News. Its a fantasy.

[Betty Boop]

I heard the figure of 70 BILLION DOLLARS being mentioned as the sum he's suspected to have siphoned out of the country, which is enough to pay off Egypt's entire national debt. Hopefully more banks will follow Switzerlands lead.

The interior minister is being investigated for corruption, and all former and current government ministers have been banned from travelling outside the country.

[hibsbollah]

Right, guys... that's two of the most stable Arab states sorted.

Who's next?

Anyone fancy a go at the Sauds?

Horrific scenes from Bahrain today...peaceful protestors shot and killed, hundreds injured.

[Hillsidehibby]

Can anyone tell me in laymans terms what the implications will be if all these middle east countries topple their "governments".

Ive got a bad feeling about this............

[Beefster]

I heard that figure too and then I thought "that can't be right"
On looking up the Forbes List of Billionaires, that would put him in at Richest Man in the World, by $20BN.
Still; Tony Blair says he's a good guy. :hmmm:

Irrespective of how much he siphoned, most of it will more than likely have been spent on bribes etc to keep him in power for so long. There will be a lot of rich people whose wealth is purely as a result of Mubarak being in power.

[Leicester Fan]

I see there's no crowing about the trouble facing not so pro-western Colonel Gaddafi.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can anyone tell me in laymans terms what the implications will be if all these middle east countries topple their "governments".

Ive got a bad feeling about this............

In broad terms, the citizens of those countries will have more say in who actually governs them. For the West, though, there is the possibility of the elected governments being less well-disposed to them.

Why the bad feeling?

[(((Fergus)))]

In broad terms, the citizens of those countries will have more say in who actually governs them. For the West, though, there is the possibility of the elected governments being less well-disposed to them.

Why the bad feeling?

That's obviously what most people hope/want, but it's not materialised yet.

BTW if these countries start to have regular elections, why would the governments be less well disposed to the west? Wouldn't they actually be becoming more like the west? In order to have regular free elections they'd have to become more like the west, i.e., freedom of assembly, expression, opinion, religion, etc., enshrined in law.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's obviously what most people hope/want, but it's not materialised yet.

BTW if these countries start to have regular elections, why would the governments be less well disposed to the west? Wouldn't they actually be becoming more like the west? In order to have regular free elections they'd have to become more like the west, i.e., freedom of assembly, expression, opinion, religion, etc., enshrined in law.

It's not yet materialised because it's far too soon for free elections to be organised, of course.

As for the relations with the West, I am thinking that, rather than be reliable "friends" (and some might say "puppets") of the West (eg Tunisia and Egypt), the new elected governments might (stress "might", since it should depend on the will of the people) actually be less inclined to accept that sort of role.

[CropleyWasGod]

I see there's no crowing about the trouble facing not so pro-western Colonel Gaddafi.

I don't think that anyone on here would crow about people being killed. If there is any satisfaction about what is happening in Libya, it is, as in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and Yemen, that there is progress being made on issues of self-determination.

[(((Fergus)))]

It's not yet materialised because it's far too soon for free elections to be organised, of course.

As for the relations with the West, I am thinking that, rather than be reliable "friends" (and some might say "puppets") of the West (eg Tunisia and Egypt), the new elected governments might (stress "might", since it should depend on the will of the people) actually be less inclined to accept that sort of role.

What I'm saying is that if arab society is naturally democratic, just been suppressed all these years (by the USA of course, except those that weren't and about which we are sworn to silence), then we should see a flourishing of democratic institutions such as a free and independent press, political parties, independent judiciary, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, and so on. If that were to be the case, those societies would become more like the west and therefore increasingly our natural allies, would they not?

As for the elections in Egypt and Tunisia, do you know for sure that they will ever happen? I know they're supposed to happen, but that proves nothing. Even if they do take place, will they ever happen again? I'm not saying they won't, just think it is too early to say with certainty either way.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I see there's no crowing about the trouble facing not so pro-western Colonel Gaddafi.

Hold on, is it 1986?

For the record, I sincerely hope he either receives a bullet to the back of the head or is strung up from a lamp-post in Green Square. But as it stands, what with the Libyan Air Force bombing protestors (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8339347/Libya-Muammar-Gaddafi-fires-on-his-own-people.html) there people are, presumably, slightly wary about 'crowing'.

Moving on, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-tTg7iJo0M) is great. Nawal el-Saadawi, the Mother of the Revolution, on Al Jazeera discussing events in Egypt.

And this (http://politirature.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/182208_10150401525475621_700645620_17383721_637199 4_n.jpg). Egyptian solidarity with American workers fighting union busting in Wisconsin.

[khib70]

What I'm saying is that if arab society is naturally democratic, just been suppressed all these years (by the USA of course, except those that weren't and about which we are sworn to silence), then we should see a flourishing of democratic institutions such as a free and independent press, political parties, independent judiciary, separation of church and state, freedom of religion, and so on. If that were to be the case, those societies would become more like the west and therefore increasingly our natural allies, would they not?

As for the elections in Egypt and Tunisia, do you know for sure that they will ever happen? I know they're supposed to happen, but that proves nothing. Even if they do take place, will they ever happen again? I'm not saying they won't, just think it is too early to say with certainty either way.
Societies. Arab or otherwise, aren't "naturally democratic". Individuals of whatever race or culture have a basic human right to free expression. Regardless of the muppets who have characterised democracy in the Middle East as a piece of Western "cultural imperialism". And the other muppets who have turned an Arsene Wenger like blind eye to Arab dictatorships because of their anti-capitalist and anti Israel stance.

I don't like the pessimism about the popular revolts in the Arab world. There's no logical reason to assume that they will result in Muslim theocracies. That's just know-nothing paranoia. And to suggest that Arab peoples are in any way incapable of running a free democratic society is patronising at best, and bigoted at worst.

All people who value freedom and democracy should unite in support of the popular movements in the Middle East.

And as LH says, the sight of Gadfaffi dangling from a piece of street furniture wouldn't upset me at all. Although he may bolt into the welcoming embrace of his fellow nepotist bampot Hugo Chavez.

[RyeSloan]

Societies. Arab or otherwise, aren't "naturally democratic". Individuals of whatever race or culture have a basic human right to free expression. Regardless of the muppets who have characterised democracy in the Middle East as a piece of Western "cultural imperialism". And the other muppets who have turned an Arsene Wenger like blind eye to Arab dictatorships because of their anti-capitalist and anti Israel stance.

I don't like the pessimism about the popular revolts in the Arab world. There's no logical reason to assume that they will result in Muslim theocracies. That's just know-nothing paranoia. And to suggest that Arab peoples are in any way incapable of running a free democratic society is patronising at best, and bigoted at worst.

All people who value freedom and democracy should unite in support of the popular movements in the Middle East.

And as LH says, the sight of Gadfaffi dangling from a piece of street furniture wouldn't upset me at all. Although he may bolt into the welcoming embrace of his fellow nepotist bampot Hugo Chavez.

Oooh careful! You agreeing with LH then calling Chavez a bampot in the same sentence is a recipe for trouble :wink: :greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

Societies. Arab or otherwise, aren't "naturally democratic". Individuals of whatever race or culture have a basic human right to free expression. Regardless of the muppets who have characterised democracy in the Middle East as a piece of Western "cultural imperialism". And the other muppets who have turned an Arsene Wenger like blind eye to Arab dictatorships because of their anti-capitalist and anti Israel stance.

I don't like the pessimism about the popular revolts in the Arab world. There's no logical reason to assume that they will result in Muslim theocracies. That's just know-nothing paranoia. And to suggest that Arab peoples are in any way incapable of running a free democratic society is patronising at best, and bigoted at worst.

All people who value freedom and democracy should unite in support of the popular movements in the Middle East.

And as LH says, the sight of Gadfaffi dangling from a piece of street furniture wouldn't upset me at all. Although he may bolt into the welcoming embrace of his fellow nepotist bampot Hugo Chavez.

Seems to me that free expression is healthy for society as a whole, i.e., the fact that is is a right or not is secondary - it is good for everyone in the long run. It enables people to be more self-critical, more discerning, more considered, better learners/developers, better cooperators/team players and so on.

Whether Arab societies are capable of running a liberal democracy - that's surely up to them to demonstrate? Are there many examples out there, either now or in the past? That said, it wasn't that long ago that large parts of Europe were under totalitarian rule so obviously societies change and sometimes rapidly.

I admire your optimism and I hope for the best, but I'm going to wait until the dust settles before drawing any firm conclusions, either one way or the other. At the moment Egypt is under military rule and (I believe) strikes have been banned. Might just be temporary, might not.

[Betty Boop]

What a hypocrite David Cameron is, visiting the Middle East, surrounded with an entourage of arms dealers. Nothing like exploiting the situation, while promoting democracy.

[(((Fergus)))]

Tweeter iyad_elbaghdadi live-tweeted Gaddafi's latest speech, given by phone from an undisclosed location, and his description contains details that are not being reported in Al Jazeera. Here is a summary:

Life in Libya is stopped completely because of what's happening, there are armed gangs and lootings. Protesters are drunks and junkies.

[He's even describing what the "hallucinogenic drugs" are and that their effects are (did he use them himself?)]

Are there no men or some reasonable person to stop these kids and take them off the streets and back home? Al Qaeda is behind all of this, they have recruited our kids. Why are you all joining Bin Laden?

These kids in Darna and Al-Bayda should be taken to Gitmo. Men, get out of home and pick up your kids and put them back home. God says you should obey your leaders. You should not obey Bin Laden's agents.

(Now he's talking about differences between Muslim Brotherhood, Salafis, and Alqaeda.)

You protesters are following Israel and Bin Laden. (!) Let Bin Laden come and feed you when your oil is gone!

There are so many kings in the world who have ruled much longer; I haven't been in power since 1977. [He claimed that he is only a symbolic leader, like Queen Elizabeth]



Speech summary? Israel told Bin Laden to give drugs to your kids. Now ground your kids.

[khib70]

Tweeter iyad_elbaghdadi live-tweeted Gaddafi's latest speech, given by phone from an undisclosed location, and his description contains details that are not being reported in Al Jazeera. Here is a summary:

Life in Libya is stopped completely because of what's happening, there are armed gangs and lootings. Protesters are drunks and junkies.

[He's even describing what the "hallucinogenic drugs" are and that their effects are (did he use them himself?)]

Are there no men or some reasonable person to stop these kids and take them off the streets and back home? Al Qaeda is behind all of this, they have recruited our kids. Why are you all joining Bin Laden?

These kids in Darna and Al-Bayda should be taken to Gitmo. Men, get out of home and pick up your kids and put them back home. God says you should obey your leaders. You should not obey Bin Laden's agents.

(Now he's talking about differences between Muslim Brotherhood, Salafis, and Alqaeda.)

You protesters are following Israel and Bin Laden. (!) Let Bin Laden come and feed you when your oil is gone!

There are so many kings in the world who have ruled much longer; I haven't been in power since 1977. [He claimed that he is only a symbolic leader, like Queen Elizabeth]



Speech summary? Israel told Bin Laden to give drugs to your kids. Now ground your kids.
He's completely hatstand and would be amusing if he wasn't responsible for so many brutal murders, both inside and outside Libya.

Have you noticed there's not quite the same rejoicing in left wing circles about the popular uprising in anti-Western Libya as there was about the same events in pro-Western Egypt?:hmmm: This despite the indisputably more vicious attempts to suppress the popular movement.

And the truth about Lockerbie is beginning to emerge. It was the Libyans after all eh? Who'd have thought it? Another CIA conspiracy theory bites the dust.

And poor George Galloway. With Saddam gone, and Gadaffi shortly (hopefully) joining him at the end of a rope, he's only got the Iranian mullahs left of his big buddies. No wonder he's been so uncharacteristically silent lately.

Let's hope the Libyan people prevail quickly, to prevent Gadaffi and his hired killers from committing any more atrocities. The international community needs to impose a no fly zone immediately and freeze all assets of the Gadaffi clique, in order to help towards this end. Let's hope that the UN will not for once be found wanting.

[Betty Boop]

He's completely hatstand and would be amusing if he wasn't responsible for so many brutal murders, both inside and outside Libya.

Have you noticed there's not quite the same rejoicing in left wing circles about the popular uprising in anti-Western Libya as there was about the same events in pro-Western Egypt?:hmmm: This despite the indisputably more vicious attempts to suppress the popular movement.

And the truth about Lockerbie is beginning to emerge. It was the Libyans after all eh? Who'd have thought it? Another CIA conspiracy theory bites the dust.

And poor George Galloway. With Saddam gone, and Gadaffi shortly (hopefully) joining him at the end of a rope, he's only got the Iranian mullahs left of his big buddies. No wonder he's been so uncharacteristically silent lately.

Let's hope the Libyan people prevail quickly, to prevent Gadaffi and his hired killers from committing any more atrocities. The international community needs to impose a no fly zone immediately and freeze all assets of the Gadaffi clique, in order to help towards this end. Let's hope that the UN will not for once be found wanting.

I think you'll find GG has been on Sky News quite a few times in the last week. He hasn't been silent at all, I will be listening to him tonight actually on Talksport at 10pm. I don't remember those in right wing circles either worrying about the welfare of those poor Egytian, Tunisian, Libyian or Bahranian (sp) citizens, while the West was propping up their odious regimes.
Jeez oil has risen to $114 dollars a barrel due to all this unrest in the Middle East ! :rolleyes:

[heretoday]

I think you'll find GG has been on Sky News quite a few times in the last week. He hasn't been silent at all, I will be listening to him tonight actually on Talksport at 10pm. I don't remember those in right wing circles either worrying about the welfare of those poor Egytian, Tunisian, Libyian or Bahranian (sp) citizens, while the West was propping up their odious regimes.
Jeez oil has risen to $114 dollars a barrel due to all this unrest in the Middle East ! :rolleyes:


Hear Hear!

[hibsbollah]

He's completely hatstand and would be amusing if he wasn't responsible for so many brutal murders, both inside and outside Libya.

Have you noticed there's not quite the same rejoicing in left wing circles about the popular uprising in anti-Western Libya as there was about the same events in pro-Western Egypt?:hmmm: This despite the indisputably more vicious attempts to suppress the popular movement.

And the truth about Lockerbie is beginning to emerge. It was the Libyans after all eh? Who'd have thought it? Another CIA conspiracy theory bites the dust.

And poor George Galloway. With Saddam gone, and Gadaffi shortly (hopefully) joining him at the end of a rope, he's only got the Iranian mullahs left of his big buddies. No wonder he's been so uncharacteristically silent lately.

Let's hope the Libyan people prevail quickly, to prevent Gadaffi and his hired killers from committing any more atrocities. The international community needs to impose a no fly zone immediately and freeze all assets of the Gadaffi clique, in order to help towards this end. Let's hope that the UN will not for once be found wanting.

Let's put this fallacy to bed that Libya is in some way a 'left-wing' state, or in some way is an enemy of the west. All Gaddafi had to do in 2004 was make some vague 'promise' about giving up 'WMD' and Blair was all over him like a sexed up teenager, signing massive oil, defence and commercial contracts (which is why there are so many British nationals stuck out there now, incidentally). Gaddafi's Cambridge-educated son Said, who was screaming fire and brimstone at the demonstrators on Al Jazeera yesterday, managed to get an invite to the LSE last year and was introduced to the audience as 'someone who looks to democracy, civil society and deep liberal values for the core of his inspiration' (Alexander Chancellor). He's also close friends with Prince Andrew and Peter Mandelson.

Why this massive transformation from global pariah state to reliable trading partner and ally? a) Because money talks, especially oil money, b)Geopolitically, washington and its allies around the world would prefer any regime, even one as murderous as Gaddafi's, over the current devil incarnate, Islamic Fundamentalism Inc. and c) Because actually, we only make a fuss about human rights when it suits us.

Gaddafi is a tyrant, no different from Mubarak, Ben Ali or any of the others. The Left should be delighted that Gaddafi is being toppled, and i'm sure anyone who is genuinely interested in real democracy, eradication of poverty and a fair justice system would feel the same.

[khib70]

I think you'll find GG has been on Sky News quite a few times in the last week. He hasn't been silent at all, I will be listening to him tonight actually on Talksport at 10pm. I don't remember those in right wing circles either worrying about the welfare of those poor Egytian, Tunisian, Libyian or Bahranian (sp) citizens, while the West was propping up their odious regimes.
Jeez oil has risen to $114 dollars a barrel due to all this unrest in the Middle East ! :rolleyes:

Fair enough BB, thought it was too much to hope for that GG would stop bellowing for a week or two:greengrin.

For the record, I've criticised most of these regimes somewhere down the line, and have always opposed the obscene trade in arms with the likes of Egypt, Saudi, Iraq etc. And as for what gets done in the name of oil, I'm sure both you and HB are familiar with the foul bedfellows the Chinese have in Africa, for mainly oil-related economic reasons. It's just plain wrong, no matter who does it, to flog weapons to dictatorships of any political colour.


Let's put this fallacy to bed that Libya is in some way a 'left-wing' state, or in some way is an enemy of the west. All Gaddafi had to do in 2004 was make some vague 'promise' about giving up 'WMD' and Blair was all over him like a sexed up teenager, signing massive oil, defence and commercial contracts (which is why there are so many British nationals stuck out there now, incidentally). Gaddafi's Cambridge-educated son Said, who was screaming fire and brimstone at the demonstrators on Al Jazeera yesterday, managed to get an invite to the LSE last year and was introduced to the audience as 'someone who looks to democracy, civil society and deep liberal values for the core of his inspiration' (Alexander Chancellor). He's also close friends with Prince Andrew and Peter Mandelson.

Why this massive transformation from global pariah state to reliable trading partner and ally? a) Because money talks, especially oil money, b)Geopolitically, washington and its allies around the world would prefer any regime, even one as murderous as Gaddafi's, over the current devil incarnate, Islamic Fundamentalism Inc. and c) Because actually, we only make a fuss about human rights when it suits us.

Gaddafi is a tyrant, no different from Mubarak, Ben Ali or any of the others. The Left should be delighted that Gaddafi is being toppled, and i'm sure anyone who is genuinely interested in real democracy, eradication of poverty and a fair justice system would feel the same.

Fair dos up to a point. But this is the same Gadaffi who supplied the Provisional IRA, and trained anti-Western terrorists of all nations. The late left wing Leith MP Ron Brown was well known for his dalliances with the Gadaffi regime, and he wasn't the only one. Your point about hypocrisy though, is unchallengable. That's the way global politics goes - wrong as it might be.

Like both of you, I do recognise the obscenity of David Cameron poncing round the Middle East accompanied by arms salesmen, especially from loathsome, brown envelope wielding gunrunners BAE Systems and especially at this moment in history. Britain doesn't just export jets and artillery, either. We are a major world supplier of "internal security" equipment - basically kit for suppressing popular uprisings, and torturing those who take part in them.

[Betty Boop]

Fair enough BB, thought it was too much to hope for that GG would stop bellowing for a week or two:greengrin.

For the record, I've criticised most of these regimes somewhere down the line, and have always opposed the obscene trade in arms with the likes of Egypt, Saudi, Iraq etc. And as for what gets done in the name of oil, I'm sure both you and HB are familiar with the foul bedfellows the Chinese have in Africa, for mainly oil-related economic reasons. It's just plain wrong, no matter who does it, to flog weapons to dictatorships of any political colour.



Fair dos up to a point. But this is the same Gadaffi who supplied the Provisional IRA, and trained anti-Western terrorists of all nations. The late left wing Leith MP Ron Brown was well known for his dalliances with the Gadaffi regime, and he wasn't the only one. Your point about hypocrisy though, is unchallengable. That's the way global politics goes - wrong as it might be.

Like both of you, I do recognise the obscenity of David Cameron poncing round the Middle East accompanied by arms salesmen, especially from loathsome, brown envelope wielding gunrunners BAE Systems and especially at this moment in history. Britain doesn't just export jets and artillery, either. We are a major world supplier of "internal security" equipment - basically kit for suppressing popular uprisings, and torturing those who take part in them.

:agree: The UK also trains the military and security forces of Libya, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, with officers being trained at Sandhurst.

[The Green Goblin]

Hold on, is it 1986?

For the record, I sincerely hope he either receives a bullet to the back of the head or is strung up from a lamp-post in Green Square. But as it stands, what with the Libyan Air Force bombing protestors (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8339347/Libya-Muammar-Gaddafi-fires-on-his-own-people.html) there people are, presumably, slightly wary about 'crowing'.

Moving on, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-tTg7iJo0M) is great. Nawal el-Saadawi, the Mother of the Revolution, on Al Jazeera discussing events in Egypt.

And this (http://politirature.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/182208_10150401525475621_700645620_17383721_637199 4_n.jpg). Egyptian solidarity with American workers fighting union busting in Wisconsin.


Ah LH, you just really helped me out by accident. I am about to read/study "Woman at Point Zero" with my IB class, so the interview with el-Saadawi has given me a perfect `starter` for the first lesson. I`ll be able to connect it to what is happening now and therefore make it directly relevant and of interest to the kids and give me a way in. Many thanks for that. :wink:

GG

[Betty Boop]

The House of Saud is mobilising thousands of troops, to put down a day of rage next Friday. I wonder if Obama, Clinton, Cameron et al will be calling for 'no fly zones', 'peaceful transitions', the Saudi Royal family to step down, etc etc ? hmmm !

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudis-mobilise-thousands-of-troops-to-quell-growing-revolt-2232928.html

[Woody1985]

Looks like some SAS guys are in trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12658054

[Betty Boop]

Looks like some SAS guys are in trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12658054

Interesting that they are being held by rebel forces, and not pro-Gaddafi. Maybe they don't want outside interference.

[Woody1985]

Interesting that they are being held by rebel forces, and not pro-Gaddafi. Maybe they don't want outside interference.

I thought it was a bit strange but you're probably right. I thought a major part of ousting these guys was because they were too friendly with the west.

[Betty Boop]

The latest film from Adam Curtis, for anyone who is interested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p003x62n/Adam_Curtis_It_Felt_Like_a_Kiss_The_Film/

[(((Fergus)))]

Interesting that they are being held by rebel forces, and not pro-Gaddafi. Maybe they don't want outside interference.

Seems they were in possession of fake passports from four different nationalities:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12660163

I thought we didn't indulge in that sort of thing?

[Betty Boop]

Seems they were in possession of fake passports from four different nationalities:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12660163

I thought we didn't indulge in that sort of thing?

Really ? :rolleyes:

[(((Fergus)))]

Really ? :rolleyes:

No, not really, just that was the impression being given last year. Maybe under Labour things were different.

[Betty Boop]

No, not really, just that was the impression being given last year. Maybe under Labour things were different.

It looks like we have failed to learn the lessons from Iraq, and yet again are poking our nose in where its not wanted. If Libya had no oil, you wouldn't hear a peep from the US, UK, EU and the UN.

[Leicester Fan]

If Libya had no oil, you wouldn't hear a peep from the US, UK, EU and the UN.

It's easy to be sanctimonious about these things but when petrol reaches £2/£3 per litre we'll all be calling for action.

[(((Fergus)))]

It's easy to be sanctimonious about these things but when petrol reaches £2/£3 per litre we'll all be calling for action.

We can also be sure that plenty of other parties are poking their noses into Libya, not just the west. For instance, according to al-Arabiya, Iran has a number of military bases in the south of the country. Personally, I agree with Betty but then we don't drive much and we live near our allotment.

[(((Fergus)))]

Interesting article on Egypt by Christopher Hitchens:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/04/hitchens-201104

[SaudiHibby]

Iran's velvet glove is behind every outrage across the Middle East at the moment. This 'trouble' has been three to four years in the making and will (history will show) be the starting point of the the Shia Crescent. Israel should be be very worried.

[hibsbollah]

Interesting article on Egypt by Christopher Hitchens:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/04/hitchens-201104

Yes its a good article. He knows his stuff, even though hes not very likeable.

[Betty Boop]

Craig Murray's take on the William Hague cock up.

http://craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/03/this-hague-cock-up-must-be-explained/

[khib70]

It looks like we have failed to learn the lessons from Iraq, and yet again are poking our nose in where its not wanted. If Libya had no oil, you wouldn't hear a peep from the US, UK, EU and the UN.
Not this old chestnut again. You think Bosnia had oil? Kosovo? Sierra Leone? We went into these places, and rightly so. We went into Bosnia and Kosovo too late because of the hand-wringers and appeasers, and thousands - mainly Muslims - died.

Should we just sit back and let Gadaffi get on with genocide? Apparently that's what we should have done with Saddam. The rebels can't win without help. And they're not going to get it from Russia, China, France or any of the other usual suspects who love propping up dictators. Because they are dictatorships themselves, or in the case of the French, gutless, duplicitous gun-runners.

Libya isn't Egypt. There will be no "Velvet Revolution" there. WIthout active help, the popular revolution will fail and the recriminations will be unspeakable. Are you so set against Western intervention anywhere, under any circumstances that you would be prepared to watch that on al Jazeera every day?

[SaudiHibby]

That, my friend, is exactly what the Iranians wish for. They hoped that at least one of the regiosn would implode and we would take sides. This will allow them to get involved to support a fellow Muslim in trouble. A Jihadist's dream.

[khib70]

That, my friend, is exactly what the Iranians wish for. They hoped that at least one of the regiosn would implode and we would take sides. This will allow them to get involved to support a fellow Muslim in trouble. A Jihadist's dream.
Take your point, but surely the fellow Muslims in trouble are the rebels, not Gadaffi and his thugs? Aren't the Iranians just as likely to help the rebels. I suspect that the anti-interventionists might not get quite so excited if they did. They don't seem too bothered about Iran's meddling in just about every bit of nastiness in the Middle East, especially their regular arms shipments to Hamas, Hizbollah and the Taliban.

[Betty Boop]

Not this old chestnut again. You think Bosnia had oil? Kosovo? Sierra Leone? We went into these places, and rightly so. We went into Bosnia and Kosovo too late because of the hand-wringers and appeasers, and thousands - mainly Muslims - died.

Should we just sit back and let Gadaffi get on with genocide? Apparently that's what we should have done with Saddam. The rebels can't win without help. And they're not going to get it from Russia, China, France or any of the other usual suspects who love propping up dictators. Because they are dictatorships themselves, or in the case of the French, gutless, duplicitous gun-runners.

Libya isn't Egypt. There will be no "Velvet Revolution" there. WIthout active help, the popular revolution will fail and the recriminations will be unspeakable. Are you so set against Western intervention anywhere, under any circumstances that you would be prepared to watch that on al Jazeera every day?

I agree, however the uprising in Libya has now turned in to a civil war. I have yet to hear any Libyan asking for the West to intervene militarily, most I've heard are fearful of another Iraq/Afghanistan. You wont' be surprised to hear that I agree with what Noam Chomsky has to say on Newsnight ! :greengrin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

[hibsbollah]

Not this old chestnut again. You think Bosnia had oil? Kosovo? Sierra Leone? We went into these places, and rightly so. We went into Bosnia and Kosovo too late because of the hand-wringers and appeasers, and thousands - mainly Muslims - died.

Should we just sit back and let Gadaffi get on with genocide? Apparently that's what we should have done with Saddam. The rebels can't win without help. And they're not going to get it from Russia, China, France or any of the other usual suspects who love propping up dictators. Because they are dictatorships themselves, or in the case of the French, gutless, duplicitous gun-runners.

Libya isn't Egypt. There will be no "Velvet Revolution" there. WIthout active help, the popular revolution will fail and the recriminations will be unspeakable. Are you so set against Western intervention anywhere, under any circumstances that you would be prepared to watch that on al Jazeera every day?

I see the French are the first Govt today to formally recognise the rebels as the new democratic Govt of Libya. A very welcome move and probably more useful diplomatically in the region than 'shall we shant we' dithering over a no-fly zone (which, lets face it, is a euphemism for war).

The French are 2nd behind Berlusconis Italy in arms sales to Libya, with the UK in third. Theres no doubt some of Gaddafi's crackdown had 'made in UK' stamped on it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya

[khib70]

I see the French are the first Govt today to formally recognise the rebels as the new democratic Govt of Libya. A very welcome move and probably more useful diplomatically in the region than 'shall we shant we' dithering over a no-fly zone (which, lets face it, is a euphemism for war).

The French are 2nd behind Berlusconis Italy in arms sales to Libya, with the UK in third. Theres no doubt some of Gaddafi's crackdown had 'made in UK' stamped on it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya
I'm sure the fact that they're officially recognised in Paris will be of great comfort to the rebels when Gadaffi's Hinds are ripping them to pieces. Or perhaps when his French Mirage fighters are bombing the crap out of them.

I'm sure Gadaffi, creature of pure reason that he is, is calling the tanks back home, given the French reputation for backing up their allies. And they did write the book on massacring North Africans, after all.

The French were no2 suppliers of Saddam Hussein, behind the Russians. Depsite the fact that only a tiny proportion of Saddam's weapons came from the UK or US, the myth of us "arming Saddam" was wheeled out just the same.

The real question is, are the UN, are we, going to sit back yet again and watch the innocents massacred? Didn't we learn anything from Srebenica, or Rwanda? Appeasement and fear of intervention are responsible for more mass graves worldwide than anything else in recent history.

[khib70]

I agree, however the uprising in Libya has now turned in to a civil war. I have yet to hear any Libyan asking for the West to intervene militarily, most I've heard are fearful of another Iraq/Afghanistan. You wont' be surprised to hear that I agree with what Noam Chomsky has to say on Newsnight ! :greengrin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm
And you won't be surprised to hear that I don't agree :greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm sure the fact that they're officially recognised in Paris will be of great comfort to the rebels when Gadaffi's Hinds are ripping them to pieces. Or perhaps when his French Mirage fighters are bombing the crap out of them.

I'm sure Gadaffi, creature of pure reason that he is, is calling the tanks back home, given the French reputation for backing up their allies. And they did write the book on massacring North Africans, after all.

The French were no2 suppliers of Saddam Hussein, behind the Russians. Depsite the fact that only a tiny proportion of Saddam's weapons came from the UK or US, the myth of us "arming Saddam" was wheeled out just the same.

The real question is, are the UN, are we, going to sit back yet again and watch the innocents massacred? Didn't we learn anything from Srebenica, or Rwanda? Appeasement and fear of intervention are responsible for more mass graves worldwide than anything else in recent history.

The problem is that this has turned into a civil war between two parts of the country. Neither side wants us to intervene, so TBH I'm not sure we should.

I don't doubt gaddafi is doing terrible things to anyone he captures, but if we intervene whats to stop both sides turning on us?

[SaudiHibby]

Take your point, but surely the fellow Muslims in trouble are the rebels, not Gadaffi and his thugs? Aren't the Iranians just as likely to help the rebels. I suspect that the anti-interventionists might not get quite so excited if they did. They don't seem too bothered about Iran's meddling in just about every bit of nastiness in the Middle East, especially their regular arms shipments to Hamas, Hizbollah and the Taliban.

They might be hoping that we end up with men and equipment on the ground then decide to start their nonsense by ousting ghadafii covertly and turning Muslims against us. It's a mess that should be sorted by Arab league not by us.

[Betty Boop]

Protestors fired on in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0KDp-y_7b0

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ah LH, you just really helped me out by accident. I am about to read/study "Woman at Point Zero" with my IB class, so the interview with el-Saadawi has given me a perfect `starter` for the first lesson. I`ll be able to connect it to what is happening now and therefore make it directly relevant and of interest to the kids and give me a way in. Many thanks for that. :wink:

GG

No problem, cheers for reminding me that I should probably read that!


Iran's velvet glove is behind every outrage across the Middle East at the moment. This 'trouble' has been three to four years in the making and will (history will show) be the starting point of the the Shia Crescent. Israel should be be very worried.

What's the 'outrage' you're referring to?

It's a little bit odd then, innit, that Iran's pushing for a 'Shia Crescent' has resulted in the toppling of two governments and a sustained insurgency against another in countries which are overwhelmingly Sunni whilst Shia majority countries, Bahrain apart, have been relatively docile. They must be getting it wrong somewhere along the line...

[clerriehibs]

The Americans have been somewhat less than belligerent amongst all these calls for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Think they knew what was coming ... they can't really be seen to be helping one set of rebels out (the Libyan ones) whilst standing by and saying nothing while the Saudis went all Gaddafi-esque on their own people and then wheel the troops into the neighbour's back yard.

A difficult call for them to make - but messrs Cameron and Hague might be rethinking their own impulsive calls to arms.

[(((Fergus)))]

The Americans have been somewhat less than belligerent amongst all these calls for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Think they knew what was coming ... they can't really be seen to be helping one set of rebels out (the Libyan ones) whilst standing by and saying nothing while the Saudis went all Gaddafi-esque on their own people and then wheel the troops into the neighbour's back yard.

A difficult call for them to make - but messrs Cameron and Hague might be rethinking their own impulsive calls to arms.

Especially if Gaddafi ends up defeating the rebels and remaining the man to speak to about Libyan oil.

[Betty Boop]

The Americans have been somewhat less than belligerent amongst all these calls for a no-fly zone over Libya.

Think they knew what was coming ... they can't really be seen to be helping one set of rebels out (the Libyan ones) whilst standing by and saying nothing while the Saudis went all Gaddafi-esque on their own people and then wheel the troops into the neighbour's back yard.

A difficult call for them to make - but messrs Cameron and Hague might be rethinking their own impulsive calls to arms.


Especially if Gaddafi ends up defeating the rebels and remaining the man to speak to about Libyan oil.

The Americans have said they were not warned, that the House of Saud were sending a thousand troops to quell the uprising in Bahrain. It will be interesting to see the comments from the international community and the Arab League. A tricky situation is developing in the Middle East, for sure.

[(((Fergus)))]

The Americans have said they were not warned, that the House of Saud were sending a thousand troops to quell the uprising in Bahrain. It will be interesting to see the comments from the international community and the Arab League. A tricky situation is developing in the Middle East, for sure.

It's a fight to limit Iran's influence over Gulf oil. Who apart from Iran and its allies is going to complain about that?

[hibsbollah]

It's a fight to limit Iran's influence over Gulf oil. Who apart from Iran and its allies is going to complain about that?

Fergus thats absolutely NOT what the 'fight' is about, but i suspect you know that fine well.

[(((Fergus)))]

Fergus thats absolutely NOT what the 'fight' is about, but i suspect you know that fine well.

Between Iran and Saudi/UAE that is what the fight is about IMO. Iran wants control of Bahrain and has always believed it is an integral part of the country. They would also like to undermine, influence perhaps even one day gain control of the Shia regions of Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia feels threatened by Iran and wants to block any Iranian incursion across the Gulf.

The people on the streets of Bahrain want to stop being slaves, of course, but in the long run will their opinion matter? How does Iran deal with its own pro-democracy movement?

Just my opinion but I am open to alternatives.

[Betty Boop]

Well that didn't take long did it ? Bob's your uncle, Charlie's your aunt and that is the UK involved in another war ! Drastic cuts in public spending, thousands losing their jobs, but plenty of dosh to get involved in wars. I despair I really do, taking sides in a civil war is a dangerous route to go down, and with reports of airstrikes within hours well........:bitchy:

[CropleyWasGod]

Well that didn't take long did it ? Bob's your uncle, Charlie's your aunt and that is the UK involved in another war ! Drastic cuts in public spending, thousands losing their jobs, but plenty of dosh to get involved in wars. I despair I really do, taking sides in a civil war is a dangerous route to go down, and with reports of airstrikes within hours well........:bitchy:

Reports of airstrikes?

[Betty Boop]

Reports of airstrikes?

Yes, and we all know about 'targetted' airstrikes !

http://www.eurasiareview.com/uncategorized/nato-may-carry-out-airstrikes-against-libya-in-next-few-hours-18032011/

[easty]

Well that didn't take long did it ? Bob's your uncle, Charlie's your aunt and that is the UK involved in another war ! Drastic cuts in public spending, thousands losing their jobs, but plenty of dosh to get involved in wars. I despair I really do, taking sides in a civil war is a dangerous route to go down, and with reports of airstrikes within hours well........:bitchy:

It's all Labours fault I tell ye! :devil:

On a slightly more serious note, I'm with you BB, I despair.

[hibsbollah]

Well that didn't take long did it ? Bob's your uncle, Charlie's your aunt and that is the UK involved in another war ! Drastic cuts in public spending, thousands losing their jobs, but plenty of dosh to get involved in wars. I despair I really do, taking sides in a civil war is a dangerous route to go down, and with reports of airstrikes within hours well........:bitchy:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm
I support the resolution. There is plenty of safeguards in place to avoid protracted involvement and use of ground troops, it has legal backing from the UN, and is supported by the Arab League and the anti-Government forces on the ground.

If it is seen to be a truly multi-national force to protect civilians and to protect the legitimacy of the Benghazi 17th February movement, I think it will be a success. Theres no reason to reject genuine humanitarian interventionism just because of our involvement in Iraq.

However, if its seen as being western-led, and is about gaining access to energy supplies, then it will be counter-productive. We'll just have to wait and see how it develops.

[Betty Boop]

[
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm
I support the resolution. There is plenty of safeguards in place to avoid protracted involvement and use of ground troops, it has legal backing from the UN, and is supported by the Arab League and the anti-Government forces on the ground.

If it is seen to be a truly multi-national force to protect civilians and to protect the legitimacy of the Benghazi 17th February movement, I think it will be a success. Theres no reason to reject genuine humanitarian interventionism just because of our involvement in Iraq.

However, if its seen as being western-led, and is about gaining access to energy supplies, then it will be counter-productive. We'll just have to wait and see how it develops.

I don't support it at all, and shows up western governments for the hypocrites that they are. They were all arming Gaddaffi to the teeth up until a couple of months ago, he has not just turned into a brutal dictator overnight, he has been the same for years. I don't have any faith in the Arab league either, just another bunch of autocratic leaders, looking for self preservation. I don't see the same condemnation against Bahrain or the Saudis, when are we going to deal with them ? What happened to diplomatic efforts anyway, surely it is better to talk than to bombard Libya with airstrikes ? Anyway I've just listened to Cameron's speech and this goes way beyond a 'no fly zone' apparently they have been authorised to use artillery, tanks, use of the sea, etc, etc. I'm not going to go banging on any longer, I find it too depressing, just an ongoing circle of violence. I'm getting ready for my hols, in a couple of weeks, when I intend to go for a stroll across Tahrir Square ! :greengrin PS I agree with Tony Benn, when he said that there should be a Middle East peace conference to discuss the ongoing violence across the region, and also the no small matter of the Palestinians.

PPS Just heard that 11 protestors have been killed and more than 100 injured today in Yemen. Intervention ?

[khib70]

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm
I support the resolution. There is plenty of safeguards in place to avoid protracted involvement and use of ground troops, it has legal backing from the UN, and is supported by the Arab League and the anti-Government forces on the ground.

If it is seen to be a truly multi-national force to protect civilians and to protect the legitimacy of the Benghazi 17th February movement, I think it will be a success. Theres no reason to reject genuine humanitarian interventionism just because of our involvement in Iraq.

However, if its seen as being western-led, and is about gaining access to energy supplies, then it will be counter-productive. We'll just have to wait and see how it develops.
:agree: Well said. Peace at any price could well prove too expensive for the Libyan people. No more Srebenicas.

[Betty Boop]

:agree: Well said. Peace at any price could well prove too expensive for the Libyan people. No more Srebenicas.

Libya declares a ceasefire. The ball is now back in the court of the International community, I suppose now we will see their real intentions. :greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

Libya declares a ceasefire. The ball is now back in the court of the International community, I suppose now we will see their real intentions. :greengrin

:agree: Have to grudgingly admire Gadaffi, he's a wily old dog. What happens now, I wonder?

[Sir David Gray]

Absolutely shocking that Britain is sending its forces over to Libya. :bitchy:

The time for action against Gadaffi was in 1988 when he ordered the single biggest atrocity in the UK to take place in the skies over Lockerbie. This is nothing to do with us and we should leave the Libyans to sort things out. If other countries want to get involved then that's their business.

No British service personnel's safety should be risked over this and I do not want to see any of our troops coming home in wooden boxes. There's been far too much of that already over the past 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the reason for intervening in Libya is because a leader is attacking his own people, why are we not getting involved in Saudi Arabia, which has one of the most brutal and repressive governments on the planet and has sent the secret police into the towns and cities to crack down on any signs of dissent?

Why are we not getting involved in Bahrain, which is run by Sunnis and is getting backing from Saudi Arabia to control the protesters, who are mainly Shia?

Why are we not getting involved in Iran, whose government have also performed violent crackdowns in recent weeks against opposition figures?

Why are we not getting involved in Zimbabwe, when Robert Mugabe has murdered and tortured anybody who has dared to speak out against him during his 30 years in power?

Why are we not getting involved in China, whose government regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of the Communist Party?

Why are we not getting involved in North Korea, whose government also regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of Kim Jong-il and whose government also allows its people to starve to death and live in extreme poverty?

Why are we not getting involved in Yemen or in Syria, both of whom have terrible human rights records?

I have no time for Gadaffi and I hope the Libyan people manage to oust him from power. Having heard some of his statements in recent weeks and seen some of the footage of him making those statements, I have come to the conclusion that he is a mentally ill and unstable man and no-one with that kind of problem should be a world leader. However we have lots of things to worry about in this country that have to be sorted out first, before we should worry about the internal troubles of another country and trying to go about enforcing regime change.

What happens if a new government takes over and within a year or two, we decide that we don't like them either? Do we go back in and get rid of them as well?

[Dashing Bob S]

Absolutely shocking that Britain is sending its forces over to Libya. :bitchy:

The time for action against Gadaffi was in 1988 when he ordered the single biggest atrocity in the UK to take place in the skies over Lockerbie. This is nothing to do with us and we should leave the Libyans to sort things out. If other countries want to get involved then that's their business.

No British service personnel's safety should be risked over this and I do not want to see any of our troops coming home in wooden boxes. There's been far too much of that already over the past 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the reason for intervening in Libya is because a leader is attacking his own people, why are we not getting involved in Saudi Arabia, which has one of the most brutal and repressive governments on the planet and has sent the secret police into the towns and cities to crack down on any signs of dissent?

Why are we not getting involved in Bahrain, which is run by Sunnis and is getting backing from Saudi Arabia to control the protesters, who are mainly Shia?

Why are we not getting involved in Iran, whose government have also performed violent crackdowns in recent weeks against opposition figures?

Why are we not getting involved in Zimbabwe, when Robert Mugabe has murdered and tortured anybody who has dared to speak out against him during his 30 years in power?

Why are we not getting involved in China, whose government regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of the Communist Party?

Why are we not getting involved in North Korea, whose government also regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of Kim Jong-il and whose government also allows its people to starve to death and live in extreme poverty?

Why are we not getting involved in Yemen or in Syria, both of whom have terrible human rights records?

I have no time for Gadaffi and I hope the Libyan people manage to oust him from power. Having heard some of his statements in recent weeks and seen some of the footage of him making those statements, I have come to the conclusion that he is a mentally ill and unstable man and no-one with that kind of problem should be a world leader. However we have lots of things to worry about in this country that have to be sorted out first, before we should worry about the internal troubles of another country and trying to go about enforcing regime change.

What happens if a new government takes over and within a year or two, we decide that we don't like them either? Do we go back in and get rid of them as well?

Why are we not getting involved in Bahrain, which is run by Sunnis and is getting backing from Saudi Arabia to control the protesters, who are mainly Shia?

Oil - American interests.

Why are we not getting involved in Iran, whose government have also performed violent crackdowns in recent weeks against opposition figures?

Would destabilize Middle East further by turning all Arab countries against us.

Why are we not getting involved in Zimbabwe, when Robert Mugabe has murdered and tortured anybody who has dared to speak out against him during his 30 years in power?

No real economic advantage in doing so.

Why are we not getting involved in China, whose government regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of the Communist Party?

A huge emergent economic power, one of our biggest trading partners.

Why are we not getting involved in North Korea, whose government also regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of Kim Jong-il and whose government also allows its people to starve to death and live in extreme poverty?

Would alienate China (see above)

Why are we not getting involved in Yemen or in Syria, both of whom have terrible human rights records?

See first two above.

[Betty Boop]

Absolutely shocking that Britain is sending its forces over to Libya. :bitchy:

The time for action against Gadaffi was in 1988 when he ordered the single biggest atrocity in the UK to take place in the skies over Lockerbie. This is nothing to do with us and we should leave the Libyans to sort things out. If other countries want to get involved then that's their business.

No British service personnel's safety should be risked over this and I do not want to see any of our troops coming home in wooden boxes. There's been far too much of that already over the past 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the reason for intervening in Libya is because a leader is attacking his own people, why are we not getting involved in Saudi Arabia, which has one of the most brutal and repressive governments on the planet and has sent the secret police into the towns and cities to crack down on any signs of dissent?

Why are we not getting involved in Bahrain, which is run by Sunnis and is getting backing from Saudi Arabia to control the protesters, who are mainly Shia?

Why are we not getting involved in Iran, whose government have also performed violent crackdowns in recent weeks against opposition figures?

Why are we not getting involved in Zimbabwe, when Robert Mugabe has murdered and tortured anybody who has dared to speak out against him during his 30 years in power?

Why are we not getting involved in China, whose government regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of the Communist Party?

Why are we not getting involved in North Korea, whose government also regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of Kim Jong-il and whose government also allows its people to starve to death and live in extreme poverty?

Why are we not getting involved in Yemen or in Syria, both of whom have terrible human rights records?

I have no time for Gadaffi and I hope the Libyan people manage to oust him from power. Having heard some of his statements in recent weeks and seen some of the footage of him making those statements, I have come to the conclusion that he is a mentally ill and unstable man and no-one with that kind of problem should be a world leader. However we have lots of things to worry about in this country that have to be sorted out first, before we should worry about the internal troubles of another country and trying to go about enforcing regime change.

What happens if a new government takes over and within a year or two, we decide that we don't like them either? Do we go back in and get rid of them as well?

Not often I agree with you, however were you not in favour of the invasion of Iraq ? Regime change dressed up as WMD was used as the reason then, and now it is regime change dressed up as humanitarian intervention. Nothing changes ! When in opposition David Cameron said 'we cannot drop democracy from 10,000 feet and we shouldn't try', now he wants Britain to be 'on the front foot' in the North African crisis. Hypocrisy of the highest order !

[CropleyWasGod]

Absolutely shocking that Britain is sending its forces over to Libya. :bitchy:

The time for action against Gadaffi was in 1988 when he ordered the single biggest atrocity in the UK to take place in the skies over Lockerbie. This is nothing to do with us and we should leave the Libyans to sort things out. If other countries want to get involved then that's their business.

No British service personnel's safety should be risked over this and I do not want to see any of our troops coming home in wooden boxes. There's been far too much of that already over the past 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the reason for intervening in Libya is because a leader is attacking his own people, why are we not getting involved in Saudi Arabia, which has one of the most brutal and repressive governments on the planet and has sent the secret police into the towns and cities to crack down on any signs of dissent?

Why are we not getting involved in Bahrain, which is run by Sunnis and is getting backing from Saudi Arabia to control the protesters, who are mainly Shia?

Why are we not getting involved in Iran, whose government have also performed violent crackdowns in recent weeks against opposition figures?

Why are we not getting involved in Zimbabwe, when Robert Mugabe has murdered and tortured anybody who has dared to speak out against him during his 30 years in power?

Why are we not getting involved in China, whose government regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of the Communist Party?

Why are we not getting involved in North Korea, whose government also regularly beats, arrests and imprisons anyone who speaks out against the rule of Kim Jong-il and whose government also allows its people to starve to death and live in extreme poverty?

Why are we not getting involved in Yemen or in Syria, both of whom have terrible human rights records?

I have no time for Gadaffi and I hope the Libyan people manage to oust him from power. Having heard some of his statements in recent weeks and seen some of the footage of him making those statements, I have come to the conclusion that he is a mentally ill and unstable man and no-one with that kind of problem should be a world leader. However we have lots of things to worry about in this country that have to be sorted out first, before we should worry about the internal troubles of another country and trying to go about enforcing regime change.

What happens if a new government takes over and within a year or two, we decide that we don't like them either? Do we go back in and get rid of them as well?

3 letter word.. starts with O and ends with L.

btw, if you do know that Gaddafi ordered the Lockerbie bombing, send your evidence to the appropriate people.

[(((Fergus)))]

Not often I agree with you, however were you not in favour of the invasion of Iraq ? Regime change dressed up as WMD was used as the reason then, and now it is regime change dressed up as humanitarian intervention. Nothing changes ! When in opposition David Cameron said 'we cannot drop democracy from 10,000 feet and we shouldn't try', now he wants Britain to be 'on the front foot' in the North African crisis. Hypocrisy of the highest order !

Is this not a bit different? There is a war already going on, our governments (and people?) have sided with the rebels and now they have to make sure they win otherwise all that massive oil investment - both in Libya and in our own refineries - will be down the plug hole and the cost of fuel here will only rise. They also have to bring the war to an end as quickly as possible so the oil can flow again.

[Big Ed]

Is this not a bit different? There is a war already going on, our governments (and people?) have sided with the rebels and now they have to make sure they win otherwise all that massive oil investment - both in Libya and in our own refineries - will be down the plug hole and the cost of fuel here will only rise. They also have to bring the war to an end as quickly as possible so the oil can flow again.

The reason that oil prices are shooting through the roof has next to ****** all to do with Libyan Civil War.

[(((Fergus)))]

The reason that oil prices are shooting through the roof has next to ****** all to do with Libyan Civil War.

Thank goodness for that. What is the reason?

[Betty Boop]

Is this not a bit different? There is a war already going on, our governments (and people?) have sided with the rebels and now they have to make sure they win otherwise all that massive oil investment - both in Libya and in our own refineries - will be down the plug hole and the cost of fuel here will only rise. They also have to bring the war to an end as quickly as possible so the oil can flow again.

No I don't think so. The no fly zone in Iraq was imposed after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991 IIRC, after the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs took up arms against Saddam. The West initially backed the uprising, but then failed to follow through. The no fly zone went on to last for 12 years, till the invasion and the rest is history. I think the two are quite similar, regime change to gain control of the oil. IMO

[(((Fergus)))]

No I don't think so. The no fly zone in Iraq was imposed after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991 IIRC, after the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs took up arms against Saddam. The West initially backed the uprising, but then failed to follow through. The no fly zone went on to last for 12 years, till the invasion and the rest is history. I think the two are quite similar, regime change to gain control of the oil. IMO

Do you think the west should have backed the Kurds, etc., back then?

If the Libyan rebels ask for outside assistance, do you think we should give it?

We've burnt our bridges with Gadaffi although if he remains I guess money will eventually smooth that over.

[steakbake]

Is this not a bit different? There is a war already going on, our governments (and people?) have sided with the rebels and now they have to make sure they win otherwise all that massive oil investment - both in Libya and in our own refineries - will be down the plug hole and the cost of fuel here will only rise. They also have to bring the war to an end as quickly as possible so the oil can flow again.

I'm not a fan of our various interventions over the last 10 years. I think Afghanistan is a total waste of time, money and crucially lives. Iraq was nothing short of madness. Bosnia and Kosovo were worth getting involved in but it was a complex situation that the West did not handle well at times and the bombing of Serbia was a step too far.

Anyhow, to come back to this: if we were going to act, we ought to have acted much sooner. The time to act on this was a couple of weeks ago, not now. I reckon it's too late.

[Betty Boop]

Do you think the west should have backed the Kurds, etc., back then?

If the Libyan rebels ask for outside assistance, do you think we should give it?

We've burnt our bridges with Gadaffi although if he remains I guess money will eventually smooth that over.

No I don't think we should be interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, especially when we cherry pick in where we intervene. At the end of the day we should stop backing brutal dictatorships and odious regimes, arming them to the teeth, then dumping them when it all goes pear-shaped. David Cameron visiting Cairo, Bahrain etc, spouting democracy surrounded by arms dealers especially ripped my knitting ! :greengrin

[Big Ed]

Thank goodness for that. What is the reason?

Well let me ask you this: Is Libya the only country in the world that produces oil?

[(((Fergus)))]

No I don't think we should be interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, especially when we cherry pick in where we intervene. At the end of the day we should stop backing brutal dictatorships and odious regimes, arming them to the teeth, then dumping them when it all goes pear-shaped. David Cameron visiting Cairo, Bahrain etc, spouting democracy surrounded by arms dealers especially ripped my knitting ! :greengrin

What about if other countries are interfering in the internal affairs of Libya, e.g., other brutal dictatorships who are enemies of the West, should we just let them get on with it even though we have billions invested there, our fuel price is dependent on it and our enemies will increase their influence in the Mediterranean and their influence over oil?

One thing's for sure, as long as there is the quantity and quality of oil that there is in Libya, anyone who is anyone will be jockeying for position to gain some form of control or at least preferential relationship with the eventual regime in that country. Should we just write our interests off?

I don't know either way, just want to hear your thoughts.

[hibsbollah]

No I don't think we should be interfering in the internal affairs of other countries

I assume, using the same rationale, you objected to the involvement of the international brigade in Spain in the 1930s? What do you think the UNSC should do instead? Do you think the 17th February movement should be hung out to dry? Have you actually read the resolution?

[Betty Boop]

I assume, using the same rationale, you objected to the involvement of the international brigade in Spain in the 1930s? What do you think the UNSC should do instead? Do you think the 17th February movement should be hung out to dry? Have you actually read the resolution?

Yes, and it goes much further than a no fly zone. Wouldn't you agree ? Its how resolutions are interpreted that are the key. The death toll and number of injuries yesterday in Yemen was horrendous, yet apart from a weak statement form Ban K-moon, there is a hardly a whimper from the International Community, ditto Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Also it is interesting to note that thousands have been out on the streets of Iraq, where allegedly there is a democratic government, who are still torturing and abusing their own people. No change from Saddam there then ! The Middle East is a different kettle of fish from the examples you have used above, our history there is a disaster.

[(((Fergus)))]

Yes, and it goes much further than a no fly zone. Wouldn't you agree ? Its how resolutions are interpreted that are the key. The death toll and number of injuries yesterday in Yemen was horrendous, yet apart from a weak statement form Ban K-moon, there is a hardly a whimper from the International Community, ditto Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Also it is interesting to note that thousands have been out on the streets of Iraq, where allegedly there is a democratic government, who are still torturing and abusing their own people. No change from Saddam there then ! The Middle East is a different kettle of fish from the examples you have used above, our history there is a disaster.

But presumably you'd prefer that no one bothers about Yemen, etc.?

[hibsbollah]

Yes, and it goes much further than a no fly zone. Wouldn't you agree ? Its how resolutions are interpreted that are the key. The death toll and number of injuries yesterday in Yemen was horrendous, yet apart from a weak statement form Ban K-moon, there is a hardly a whimper from the International Community, ditto Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Also it is interesting to note that thousands have been out on the streets of Iraq, where allegedly there is a democratic government, who are still torturing and abusing their own people. No change from Saddam there then ! The Middle East is a different kettle of fish from the examples you have used above, our history there is a disaster.

Your definition of what defines a 'kettle of fish' is mysterious. Leaving that aside for a moment, why dont you think about the questions i asked you?

[hibsbollah]

UK Air strikes reported on military bases in Eastern Libya in the last 10 minutes. Its started.

[Betty Boop]

Your definition of what defines a 'kettle of fish' is mysterious. Leaving that aside for a moment, why dont you think about the questions i asked you?

You come across a bit of an asshole, your tone is patronising to say the least ! "Why don't you think about the questions I asked you" ? Maybe you should be the one that does some thinking ! I have already stated why I don't think we should be intervening, in several posts on this thread. Fascism is another matter altogether, and nothing to do with what is going on in Libya. Anyway I'm not going to get involved in any more bickering on here, I'm out ! :greengrin By the way I wonder why there were no calls for any one to intervene during Operation Cast Lead ?

Meanwhile over in Yemen http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27724.htm

[hibsbollah]

It wasnt meant to be patronising; if you cant deal with an exchange of views without resorting to name-calling then thats your problem.

[Betty Boop]

It wasnt meant to be patronising; if you cant deal with an exchange of views without resorting to name-calling then thats your problem.

Yes, it was wrong, and I hope you will accept my apology for that.