Dick Winters RIP

[hibsbollah]

Was listening to Last Word earlier and I hadnt realised that one of the main protagonists of the D Day landings, popularised in Band of Brothers book and TV series, died this week.

A really remarkable man.

[--------]

Was listening to Last Word earlier and I hadnt realised that one of the main protagonists of the D Day landings, popularised in Band of Brothers book and TV series, died this week.

A really remarkable man.


Remarkable man indeed, but "one of the main protagonists of the D-Day landings"?

Surely a bitty OTT there. :cool2:

[hibsbollah]

I don't want get into a debate on semantics but my 'Collins concise':cool2:, says 'protagonist-n. a principal performer, a leading person in a contest etc.'

I stand by that.

[DaveF]

Certainly a remarkable man and leader of men - amongst many during those d-day landings.

You take what you see on 'Band of Brothers' with a pinch of salt, but everythng you read about him and the comments from those who served with him and under him give you a picture of a genuine man who truly did earn the respect of his colleagues.

[Green Mikey]

Remarkable man indeed, but "one of the main protagonists of the D-Day landings"?

Surely a bitty OTT there. :cool2:

The attack he led on the German 88 position on D-Day (he was decorated for this) was a decisive action and I believe this supports the statement that he was one of the main protagonists.

Definately a remarkable man.

[--------]

Oh dear.

He commanded an Airborne Infantry Company dropped behind Omaha beach.

Omaha was one of FIVE beaches used by the Allies that day - Juno, Sword and Gold were the British and Commonwealth landing zones, Utah and Omaha were the American ones.

I totally agree he was a courageous man and a fine soldier, but I would suggest that the main reason we've heard of him is because there was a book written about him which became a TV series.

There were hundreds, if not thousands of officers at company and section level in the armies of all the Allied nations involved on D-Day. Dick Winters was a 'main protagonist' in the attack on that particular German artillery position. He may even have been a 'main protagonist' in the actions undertaken by the 101st Airborne on 6th June.

But when one considers the scale of the Normandy landings, and the vast numbers of men of many nations involved in those landings, Winters really can't be touted as a 'main protagonist' in the D-Day landings as a whole.

How many company commanders led their companies in the successful capture or destruction of Wehrmacht artillery positions in the hours following D-Day? Quite a few, I guess, and most if not all of those actions would have been as crucial as the one depicted in 'Band of Brothers'.

The success of the Normandy landings in 1944 was not exclusively attributable to the efficiency and excellence of the American Army.

THEY HAD HELP.

A LOT OF HELP.

[hibsbollah]

The success of the Normandy landings in 1944 was not exclusively attributable to the efficiency and excellence of the American Army.



I'm not sure who you're debating with here, only an idiot would make that argument.

Its possible to combine a belief that victory against fascism in WW2 was a collective effort, and also at the same time recognise that without some certain individuals in key positions Hitler could have won. It was a very close thing, and if the Battle of Bulge (for example) had gone the other way it could have changed the whole course of the conflict.

He was clearly exceptional (even if he was American):cool2:.

[Hibs Class]

Given the definition in post 3, I think it's fair to refer to him as one of the many protagonists of the D-Day landings.

[--------]

I'm not sure who you're debating with here, only an idiot would make that argument.

Its possible to combine a belief that victory against fascism in WW2 was a collective effort, and also at the same time recognise that without some certain individuals in key positions Hitler could have won. It was a very close thing, and if the Battle of Bulge (for example) had gone the other way it could have changed the whole course of the conflict.

He was clearly exceptional (even if he was American):cool2:.


Idiots like the ones who run the American entertainment industry?

If it comes right down to it, the decisive input leading to the defeat of the Third Reich was that of the Red Army.

I would argue that the Red Army provided the numbers, the Americans provided the weapons, and we hung on long enough between 1939 and 1942 for our 'allies' to actually start fighting.

[hibsbollah]

If it comes right down to it, the decisive input leading to the defeat of the Third Reich was that of the Red Army.

I would argue that the Red Army provided the numbers, the Americans provided the weapons, and we hung on long enough between 1939 and 1942 for our 'allies' to actually start fighting.

I agree completely with that. I'm still not clear that makes any difference to the point about Winters.

[GhostofBolivar]

Idiots like the ones who run the American entertainment industry?

If it comes right down to it, the decisive input leading to the defeat of the Third Reich was that of the Red Army.

I would argue that the Red Army provided the numbers, the Americans provided the weapons, and we hung on long enough between 1939 and 1942 for our 'allies' to actually start fighting.

Paraphrasing Joseph Stalin now, are we? :cool2:

[Green Mikey]

Oh dear.

He commanded an Airborne Infantry Company dropped behind Omaha beach.

Omaha was one of FIVE beaches used by the Allies that day - Juno, Sword and Gold were the British and Commonwealth landing zones, Utah and Omaha were the American ones.

I totally agree he was a courageous man and a fine soldier, but I would suggest that the main reason we've heard of him is because there was a book written about him which became a TV series.

There were hundreds, if not thousands of officers at company and section level in the armies of all the Allied nations involved on D-Day. Dick Winters was a 'main protagonist' in the attack on that particular German artillery position. He may even have been a 'main protagonist' in the actions undertaken by the 101st Airborne on 6th June.

But when one considers the scale of the Normandy landings, and the vast numbers of men of many nations involved in those landings, Winters really can't be touted as a 'main protagonist' in the D-Day landings as a whole.

How many company commanders led their companies in the successful capture or destruction of Wehrmacht artillery positions in the hours following D-Day? Quite a few, I guess, and most if not all of those actions would have been as crucial as the one depicted in 'Band of Brothers'.

The success of the Normandy landings in 1944 was not exclusively attributable to the efficiency and excellence of the American Army.

THEY HAD HELP.

A LOT OF HELP.

IMO you are searching for an argument to assert you knowledge of WW2 on this thread by insinuating that people's admiration of Dick Winters is driven by Hollywood not fact.

Of course Hollywood had a large part in telling his story to the masses however his actions on D-Day and throughout the war coupled with the defintion of 'protagonaist' certainly allows him to be described in a certain manner.

[GhostofBolivar]

I'm not sure who you're debating with here, only an idiot would make that argument.

Its possible to combine a belief that victory against fascism in WW2 was a collective effort, and also at the same time recognise that without some certain individuals in key positions Hitler could have won. It was a very close thing, and if the Battle of Bulge (for example) had gone the other way it could have changed the whole course of the conflict.

He was clearly exceptional (even if he was American):cool2:.

The Battle of the Bulge was irrelevant to the outcome of the war. At best, it could have changed the political map of post-war Europe, but that's all.

[GhostofBolivar]

The attack he led on the German 88 position on D-Day (he was decorated for this) was a decisive action and I believe this supports the statement that he was one of the main protagonists.

Definately a remarkable man.

No, it doesn't.

Saying Winters is one of the main protagonists on D-Day is like saying Brad Colbert is one of the main protagonists in the invasion of Iraq.

Having people write books about you and featuring in HBO series about those books makes you a major player in the events portrayed in those books, movies and tv series. It doesn't make you a leading protagonist in far larger events like the invasion of North-West Europe.

[hibsbollah]

The Battle of the Bulge was irrelevant to the outcome of the war.

How you come to that conclusion I have no idea. Care to elaborate?

[Green Mikey]

No, it doesn't.

Saying Winters is one of the main protagonists on D-Day is like saying Brad Colbert is one of the main protagonists in the invasion of Iraq.

Having people write books about you and featuring in HBO series about those books makes you a major player in the events portrayed in those books, movies and tv series. It doesn't make you a leading protagonist in far larger events like the invasion of North-West Europe.

This is turning into an argument interpretation of of the term 'protagonist'. I didn't use the terms I highlighted in bold these are you intepretations not what I said. Just like Doddie you are infering that I am unaware of the scale of WW2, this isn't true.

I would say that Brad Colbert and Winters were both main protagonists in their respective wars. Certainly within their sphere of influence they did something worthy of the interest of the mass media, this does not mean that other noteworthy protagonists don't exist.

[GhostofBolivar]

How you come to that conclusion I have no idea. Care to elaborate?

It would have done nothing to stop the Red Army's advance on the Eastern Front.

Even after the D-Day landings, 75% of the Wehrmacht was deployed against the Soviets. The Battle of Kursk was far more decisive to the defeat of Germany than Overlord. The Soviet summer offensive of 1944 destroyed Army Group Centre and encountered far fewer setbacks than the Allies in Normandy.

By the winter of 1944-45, German defeat was certain. A limited offensive in the Ardennes that could never have hurt the Red Army wasn't going to change that outcome.

[hibsbollah]

It would have done nothing to stop the Red Army's advance on the Eastern Front.

Even after the D-Day landings, 75% of the Wehrmacht was deployed against the Soviets. The Battle of Kursk was far more decisive to the defeat of Germany than Overlord. The Soviet summer offensive of 1944 destroyed Army Group Centre and encountered far fewer setbacks than the Allies in Normandy.

By the winter of 1944-45, German defeat was certain. A limited offensive in the Ardennes that could never have hurt the Red Army wasn't going to change that outcome.

Hmmm. You're showing a lot of 'certainties' in that post. A number of eminent historians happen to disagree with you. A major successful counterattack might have cut the Allies supply lines on the western front and allowed Hitler to redeploy his troops to the East.

The outcome of War is never certain.

[--------]

IMO you are searching for an argument to assert you knowledge of WW2 on this thread by insinuating that people's admiration of Dick Winters is driven by Hollywood not fact.

Of course Hollywood had a large part in telling his story to the masses however his actions on D-Day and throughout the war coupled with the defintion of 'protagonaist' certainly allows him to be described in a certain manner.


Read what I said and not what you think or wish I had said.

IIRC the OP stated that Dick Winters was one of the MAIN PROTAGONISTS of the Normandy landings.

A company officer a 'leading protagonist' of a major seaborne invasion? Not on your life. There were hundreds of infantry battalions engaged on 6th June, and hundreds of officers similar in rank, status and ability to Dick Winters. And hundreds of German artillery batteries to be dealt with, then and in the days to come. The action depicted in the second (third?) episode of "Band of Brothers" was hardly an engagement upon which the whole success of the invasion depended. Nor was their resistance at Bastogne as decisive as portrayed. The 101st Airborne Division was, like most Army Divisions, made up of a number of regiments, each made up of a number of companies. There were at least 5 infantry regiments, plus tanks and artillery, engaged in the Bastogne pocket. It didn't all come down to one airborne infantry company.

Just because a book got written and a TV series made about them doesn't mean that Dick Winters and his company played a leading or decisive role either in the invasion or in the campaign that followed on from the invasion. can you be absolutely certain that the book/film is accurate history, and not tarted up for dramatic effect? Even slightly fictionalised, perhaps?

Winters was without doubt a courageous man and a fine officer, and I'm sorry to hear of his death. But had "Band of Brothers" not been written - or more importantly, had the book not been made into a TV series - I doubt if anyone would have heard very much about him - or of 'Easy' Company.

Truth to tell, neither Winters nor his company were really all that important in the great scheme of things. Not more important than tens of thousands of other poor bloody infantry in the the year between the invasion and the German surrender.

Ghost's right, btw - the Ardennes offensive was Hitler's last hurrah in the west, and largely irrelevant to the outcome of the War, except in that after the failure of the Ardennes push the Luftwaffe (what was left of it) was effectively destroyed. This was a huge advantage to the Soviets when they began their advance towards Berlin, and of course to us once we had resumed our advance on the Rhine crossings.

Even if the German Army had been successful in breaking the Allied line and reaching the sea, the only long-term result would have been that the Red Army would have penetrated even farther into Central and Western Europe than they did. This was the Western Allies real concern in early 1945 - that they would have a strong enough bargaining position at the upcoming Yalta Conference to prevent Stalin from simply taking over the entire continent east of the Rhine.

So the Americans finally holding the line in the Ardennes was much more significant for the final settlement of boundaries in post-war Europe than it was in regard to the question of who was going to win the war.

And even then Roosevelt threw away any advantage gained when he capitulated to Stalin at Yalta.

[Green Mikey]

Read what I said and not what you think or wish I had said.

IIRC the OP stated that Dick Winters was one of the MAIN PROTAGONISTS of the Normandy landings.

A company officer a 'leading protagonist' of a major seaborne invasion? Not on your life. There were hundreds of infantry battalions engaged on 6th June, and hundreds of officers similar in rank, status and ability to Dick Winters. And hundreds of German artillery batteries to be dealt with, then and in the days to come. The action depicted in the second (third?) episode of "Band of Brothers" was hardly an engagement upon which the whole success of the invasion depended. Nor was their resistance at Bastogne as decisive as portrayed. The 101st Airborne Division was, like most Army Divisions, made up of a number of regiments, each made up of a number of companies. There were at least 5 infantry regiments, plus tanks and artillery, engaged in the Bastogne pocket. It didn't all come down to one airborne infantry company.

Just because a book got written and a TV series made about them doesn't mean that Dick Winters and his company played a leading or decisive role either in the invasion or in the campaign that followed on from the invasion. can you be absolutely certain that the book/film is accurate history, and not tarted up for dramatic effect? Even slightly fictionalised, perhaps?

Winters was without doubt a courageous man and a fine officer, and I'm sorry to hear of his death. But had "Band of Brothers" not been written - or more importantly, had the book not been made into a TV series - I doubt if anyone would have heard very much about him - or of 'Easy' Company.

Truth to tell, neither Winters nor his company were really all that important in the great scheme of things. Not more important than tens of thousands of other poor bloody infantry in the the year between the invasion and the German surrender.

Ghost's right, btw - the Ardennes offensive was Hitler's last hurrah in the west, and largely irrelevant to the outcome of the War, except in that after the failure of the Ardennes push the Luftwaffe (what was left of it) was effectively destroyed. This was a huge advantage to the Soviets when they began their advance towards Berlin, and of course to us once we had resumed our advance on the Rhine crossings.

Even if the German Army had been successful in breaking the Allied line and reaching the sea, the only long-term result would have been that the Red Army would have penetrated even farther into Central and Western Europe than they did. This was the Western Allies real concern in early 1945 - that they would have a strong enough bargaining position at the upcoming Yalta Conference to prevent Stalin from simply taking over the entire continent east of the Rhine.

So the Americans finally holding the line in the Ardennes was much more significant for the final settlement of boundaries in post-war Europe than it was in regard to the question of who was going to win the war.

And even then Roosevelt threw away any advantage gained when he capitulated to Stalin at Yalta.

This is turning into a tiresome argument over semantics but I stand by what I said in my earlier post:-

IMO you are searching for an argument to assert you knowledge of WW2.

[--------]

This is turning into a tiresome argument over semantics but I stand by what I said in my earlier post:-

IMO you are searching for an argument to assert you knowledge of WW2.


Or maybe just annoyed at absurd claims being made for obscure American infantry officers? :cool2:

[Beefster]

Or maybe just annoyed at absurd claims being made for obscure American infantry officers? :cool2:

What an awful way to refer to an Allied soldier, who put his life on the line in a World War. I'd go as far to say that Winters has done more for this country than the vast majority on here.

Only on Hibs.net could a WW2 solider's death be turned into a pissing contest.

[--------]

What an awful way to refer to an Allied soldier, who put his life on the line in a World War. I'd go as far to say that Winters has done more for this country than the vast majority on here.

Only on Hibs.net could a WW2 solider's death be turned into a pissing contest.


Apologies. My disagreement with the OP's assessment of Capt. Winters place and significance in terms of the D-Day landings as a whole carried me away.

However, company commanders are by definition 'obscure' - even the outstanding ones. Most of them are unheard-of, as Dick Winters was until 'B of Bs' came along.

I did not intend to denigrate him or run him down in any way - a sad case of my keyboard running away with me.

Again, apologies.

[discman]

What an awful way to refer to an Allied soldier, who put his life on the line in a World War. I'd go as far to say that Winters has done more for this country than the vast majority on here.

Only on Hibs.net could a WW2 solider's death be turned into a pissing contest.


The really good thing about Holy Ground is the topics we have an oppertunity to discuss/argue,because I disagree with someone on here doesnt mean I disrepect them, just means I hold a different opinion.

I thought the arguments were interesting and hardly a "pissing contest" and long may they continue! :greengrin

[Beefster]

Apologies. My disagreement with the OP's assessment of Capt. Winters place and significance in terms of the D-Day landings as a whole carried me away.

However, company commanders are by definition 'obscure' - even the outstanding ones. Most of them are unheard-of, as Dick Winters was until 'B of Bs' came along.

I did not intend to denigrate him or run him down in any way - a sad case of my keyboard running away with me.

Again, apologies.

Thanks Doddie. My apologies also for my over-reaction.

[--------]

The really good thing about Holy Ground is the topics we have an oppertunity to discuss/argue,because I disagree with someone on here doesnt mean I disrepect them, just means I hold a different opinion.

I thought the arguments were interesting and hardly a "pissing contest" and long may they continue! :greengrin


Well, I for one got a wee bit ahead of myself and should have chosen my words more carefully.

However, at the risk of starting the whole thing off again....

We do need to bear in mind that "Band of Brothers" isn't pure history - it's TV drama based on history, and it suffers from a very close focus on one particular US Para company. By focussing so closely on one company, the series inevitably distorted the events of which Winters and his men were part. For example - the viewer might think that 'Easy' Company were alone in the Bastogne enclave while in fact there were at least 5 regiments of the 101st Division plus tanks and artillery with them. This doesn't come out in the TV drama - but then, the drama's about the one company, not the overall campaign.

Winters himself was a more than able company commander by all accounts. I in no way intended to denigrate him, though I accept I could have been a little more careful with my choice of words at times.

If one were seriously interested in seeing an overview of the Normandy landings and the campaigns following on from them, I would recommend Anthony Beevor's "D-Day" and Max Hastings "Overlord" and "Armageddon" - all of which make serious endeavours to do justice to the parts played by ALL the Allies in the battles of the Western Front in 1944-45.

For a soldier's eye view of the war on the Eastern Front, you couldn't do better than to get a hold of Vasily Grossman's "A Writer At War", written 1941-45, and Catherine Merridale's "Ivan's War". Both very good, if at times harrowing, reading.

All four of these writers are, IMHO, head and shoulders above Ambrose.

[essexhibee]

Sad sad news.

Seemed like a great man. The band of brothers series was the best war dramas I have ever seen. Never tire of the episodes. You felt like you got to know the characters of the series personally...and you can feel their emotions.

Truly epic series. RIP Dick you are in a better place now.

[lyonhibs]

It should be remembered that the only reason that Easy Company were "chosen" for the series was that Ambrose phoned up the co-ordinator of the Airborne Veterans Society in the late 1990's and asked which company was next having a re-union. It so happened to be Easy Company, and to them the spoils and - long overdue - wider recognition that an excellently executed HBO mini-series will give you.

Every member of E Company I've ever seen an interview with has been at pains to highlight that their company was one of many companies who performed heriocs on D-Day and beyond.

I've been to Normandy, on the Band of Brothers tours and the British Beaches tours, and without getting misty eyed about it, Normandy really is the only region of the world I've been to where the history of the place, and its significance, comes out of every hedgerow, field and cottage. You can feel it in the air, and the last time I felt truly humbled was when I got the opportunity to meet a Canadian D-Day veteran.

When Stalin says that "a military undertaking of this scale has never been seen before" (or words to that effect) you know your talking about something truly great, and the vast majority of the rank-and-file US AND BRITISH AND POLISH AND ANZAC AND FRENCH (to name but a few of the nations who contributed) soldiers, airmen and seamen that took part are worthy of our reverence and recognition.

Dick Winters was fortunate to be one of many extremely talented and respected combat leaders - the difference is - by a twist of fate - he is in the consience of today's "youth" (i.e. anyway under the age of 50 who has known nothing but peace on British soil).

Someone considered to be equally as fine a combat leader never even made it onto French soil alive from the drop - a cookie if you know who without resorting to watching the DVD's :greengrin