League De-construction (merged)

[Sunny1875]

12 SPL teams have agreed in principal to a boring 2 tier ten team league

have ruled out 16 or 18 team setup .... thoughts anyone ?

[Gatecrasher]

12 SPL teams have agreed in principal to a boring 2 tier ten team league

have ruled out 16 or 18 team setup .... thoughts anyone ?

aye

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though this stinks and the league will crash and burn IMO no one can be arsed any more

[PaulSmith]

I'm more worried about when it starts..season after next I hope?!

[mglancy23]

12 SPL teams have agreed in principal to a boring 2 tier ten team league

have ruled out 16 or 18 team setup .... thoughts anyone ?

madness

[Nameless]

A huge step backwards. If this does happen, it will ensure that nobody outside of the huntic will ever be able to win the league.....EVER.

[MrSmith]

Well, we all need to vote with our feet in that case!

[GreenCastle]

12 SPL teams have agreed in principal to a boring 2 tier ten team league

have ruled out 16 or 18 team setup .... thoughts anyone ?

Where does it say this ?

I thought they were having talks today - anything been agreed ?

Thanks

[down the slope]

If this is the case then it seems their arrogance knows no bounds, it must be clear to the chairman that it is the last thing the fans want as we have seen in the recent poll that was published that a larger league was the prefered option.
It would seem that they could not give a monkeys for the publics views so i hope it fails spectacularly and that those that voted for this nonsense are held responsible.

[Sunny1875]

was on the lunchtime ITV news they obviously had a long discussion over tea and scones

[Moulin Yarns]

was on the lunchtime ITV news they obviously had a long discussion over tea and scones

It was on the news that they agreed that change was needed, no mention of actual structure. The only thing decided was there would be no play-off at the TOP of the league (because the ugly sisters are scared of competition)

[Mikey]

Well, we all need to vote with our feet in that case!

And what would that do to Hibernian's £2m a year operating deficit?

[GreenCastle]

nothing has been agreed yet - I am sure once it has it will be all over Sky Sports / BBC.

If it goes to a 10 team league I am done - doesn't the 11 -1 vote have to take place and does that also mean 2 teams get relegated this season :confused::confused:

Possibility it could be Hibs - could they actually decide that mid season ? Surely not :agree:

[Sas_The_Hibby]

It was on the news that they agreed that change was needed, no mention of actual structure. The only thing decided was there would be no play-off at the TOP of the league (because the ugly sisters are scared of competition)

Or because it would make an absolute mockery of the league, basing it on two games?

[Westie1875]

Seems crazy, as usual they don't care what the fans think :bitchy:

The league is already boring and repetitive enough as it is, making it even more so really can't be the best solution.

I'm not sure I want to commit to watching the same teams again and again at ER, will be thinking seriously about whether a season ticket will be purchased when/if this comes in.

[Moulin Yarns]

Or because it would make an absolute mockery of the league, basing it on two games?

Same goes for play-offs at the bottom in that case, yet everybody seems to think that is a good idea (myself included)

[Saorsa]

And what would that do to Hibernian's £2m a year operating deficit?Well maybe they along with others should start listening tae the people that go tae games before they become the people that dinnae go tae games, instead of their "you'll take what we give you and like it" attitude towards the fans. If this gets the go ahead I'm out, final nail in the coffin for me as far as throwing away hundreds of pounds on Scottish fitba is concerned.

[Moulin Yarns]

The clubs are to meet again on 17/1/11 and are expected to vote on the proposals

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/SPL-clubs-edge-towards-10team.6679164.jp

I notice there is a poll on that page, another chance to voice our opinions

[Aubenas]

If it does go to 2 X 10, it merely proves what we already know: The Old Firm and TV call the shots.

The real worry is that it would be those who run the Scottish game admitting that they have no idea how to get the crowds back and they are willing to accede to TV demands as the only way of generating income/interest. That, of course, changes the fundamental nature of Scottish football, makes a mockery of the lower leagues, and strips the league from any pretence of being community based.

None of that augurs well for the future. TV operates on fads; in my life time I've seen Speedway, greyhounds, ten pin bowling, wrestling, snooker and more, all hailed as the tv friendly future. One day football will become less attractive to the media moguls and the Scottish league will be at the bottom end of an expendable attraction.

By then there will be no traditional base on which to base the continued existence of professional football. Our grand kids will be paying high subscriptions to see meaningless games between teams of superstars rooted to nothing except advertising revenue and personal wealth.
:confused:

[PaulSmith]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9336457.stm

[ScottB]

And what would that do to Hibernian's £2m a year operating deficit?

What's worse? One day of fans across the country refusing to go to the games in protest, or the inevitable decline in gate that the 10 team league would appear to be going to result in?

[Greentinted]

Scottish fitba' is dying on it's arse and this is merely a form of assisted suicide. Would the last person oot turn the life support system off? Ta!

[PaulSmith]

Previously was not in favour of a 14 or 16 team league but the thought now of 10 teams just kills me.

It is of course for financial reasons and TV but if they gave a 2.5 year notice period it would give enough time for everyone to get their house in order, back to mostly 3pm Sat kick offs and reasonable ST prices.

Get the fans back first as they ain't coming back under this proposal

[Expecting Rain]

Why don`t the SFA come up with a directive that suggests we bring a bit of entertainment back into the game with teams trying to beat each other home and away and with more players like Paddy McCourt, Templeton and our very own Zemmama being afforded more protection in their quest to actually beat a defender and make things happen, the structure is only part of the problem.

[RoxburghHibs]

Please join the Facebook petition and have your say!


Petition against a 10 team SPL1 and SPL2

[Westie1875]

Previously was not in favour of a 14 or 16 team league but the thought now of 10 teams just kills me.

It is of course for financial reasons and TV but if they gave a 2.5 year notice period it would give enough time for everyone to get their house in order, back to mostly 3pm Sat kick offs and reasonable ST prices.

Get the fans back first as they ain't coming back under this proposal

:agree: More will be driven away. I'm sure lots of us can think of plenty other things we could spend our £40 a month season ticket money on and it will be tempting if the product becomes more boring than it already is.

[basehibby]

F****IN BOOOOOO!!!

Totally gutless decision which condems Scottish Football to years more of mediocrity. Confirms that the guardians of our game have their heads well and trully burried up their own backsides - they are showing utter contempt for their customer base which any business does at it's own dire peril.

[col02]

While slightly disappointed with this proposal I am not really that surprised as for too many clubs having both Rangers and Celtic at your ground twice a season each is a big difference in money from having them only once each per season. Prepared to give it a chance when it comes about but I feel we could witness a very negative league with relegation becoming a bit more intense.

[GreenCastle]

Can someone answer my question....

Does that mean if this happens 2 teams go down this season or even 3 - as surely Div 1 won't be happy they don't get promoted ?

[FifeHibby]

Can someone answer my question....

Does that mean if this happens 2 teams go down this season or even 3 - as surely Div 1 won't be happy they don't get promoted ?

I think it will start the season after next. Which will mean 3 go down next season with 1 coming up.

[Dalkeith]

Can someone answer my question....

Does that mean if this happens 2 teams go down this season or even 3 - as surely Div 1 won't be happy they don't get promoted ?


will be next season as they cant change halfway through

[MrSmith]

Well maybe they along with others should start listening tae the people that go tae games before they become the people that dinnae go tae games, instead of their "you'll take what we give you and like it" attitude towards the fans. If this gets the go ahead I'm out, final nail in the coffin for me as far as throwing away hundreds of pounds on Scottish fitba is concerned.

Couldn't disagree with any of this!

Out too!

[jgl07]

Scottish fitba' is dying on it's arse and this is merely a form of assisted suicide. Would the last person oot turn the life support system off? Ta!

That is the most positive thing about the proposals. It would put Scottish Football out of its misery once and for all!

It will certainly finish things for me. As soon as this is voted through I will not attend another SPL match.

[GreenCastle]

I think it will start the season after next. Which will mean 3 go down next season with 1 coming up.

Thanks -

3 going down...ouch - maybe a good year to have a bad season this season :cool2:

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks -

3 going down...ouch - maybe a good year to have a bad season this season :cool2:


Now there is a plan!! Last time (1998) we (Hibs) voted for the change and were relegated for the great adventure.

[PolmontHibby]

The folllowing quote from Topping (who he?) sums it up for me.
"If you look at Scottish football, a 16-team league wouldn't work economically and it would have a knock-on effect in terms of the quality of players you can attract. It's two 10s or the status quo in my view."

Even if you believe his view - personally I would be happy for Hibs to trade money/quality for a more competitive league and more games at 3pm on a Saturday. The general fact is that teams outwith OF crash in burn with the current "quality" players.....so what are we losing out on?

I made the point to Board Member Fife Hyland that after 30 years of highs and (mostly) lows, the proposed return to a ten team league is the first time I have came to the view that the 2 season tickets I purchase will not be renewed.
Based on this mornings feedback looks like it is going to happen.

Of course I will continue to attend games- but on my terms at 3pm on a Saturday (won't miss seeing the OF bigots in the slightest) - and it will save me (but lose Hibs) cash.

[Hibee Daz]

This is utter bollox and what makes it even worse is that our own board are all for this ****ty proposal, despite the majority of Hibs fans opposing it!

I will say this the tacheman is making a rod for his own back if this comes to fruition, as our already half empty stadium will turn into a ****in tomb, with the thought of our beloved team being in a relegation dog fight every other year!

I will reiterate this plan is utter bollox.

[one day maybe...]

Not financially viable :confused: Poppycock!
Live within your finances then instead of spending what you don't have, then we will see teams develope young quality players instead of buying them and paying wages they can't afford. It may be a step back for 5 or 10 years but it will eventually come good.
A 10 team league will be the death of Scottish football. I'd rather go watch the Highland League.

[Godsahibby]

Has anyone from our club made any comment on their views on the proposed restruture? Has the decision for them been based purley on a finacial basis or have they considered the football / fans aspect?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Bye bye SPL, im off to find another interest in life!

[Wembley67]

Has anyone from our club made any comment on their views on the proposed restruture? Has the decision for them been based purley on a finacial basis or have they considered the football / fans aspect?

Personally. I would say its financial.....so pathetic its ridiculous. As others have said before the death knell may have sounded.

For a start make the voting system democratic, rangers and Celtic will always cover each others backs with this 11/1 thing.

Rubbish.

[yekimevol]

NOOO NOOO NOO why have two leagues of ten we are sick of seeing each other as it is !!!!

just make it one league of 20 !!!!
with no split and a relegation playoff with a earlyer start to the season and a winter break !!!!!

[1two]

I'm more worried about when it starts..season after next I hope?!

Which would mean that whoever gets relegated this year will spend 2 years playing in the first division!

The whole thing stinks.
It's all been organised around money.
It's a short term fix rather than looking to the future.
A 16-18 league is the only way Scottish football can be saved and that's just the start. Bring back the relegation playoffs with bottom getting automatically relegated and next 2 facing the second and third from the first division.


A 16 team 1st division under it with regional leagues supporting it
East, west and highland

Restructuring the league cup
Maybe regionalising it for the first few rounds including the big teams or even better some sort of British cup.

Investment in youth football, with a similar league set up. Big bonuses to clubs who win these competitions would encourage it.

The changes need to make our leagues more competitive.

A LOT of work is needed and it's going to take 10 years + to get there but moving back to a 10 team spl is the first step to killing football in this country and well end up with a similar set up to Ireland - less money only have even less competition with the of still dominating.

[hibeenicol]

I'll not be renewing my season ticket to watch the same teams over and over again, it's boring just now with 12 nevermind 10.

What happened to the customers always right?:confused:

[Gatecrasher]

i dont normally read pie and bovril but i thought i would to see what other fans thought, and apart from the odd poster their seems to be of the same opinion as us hibs fans

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/136988-doncaster-set-to-unveil-spl-shake-up-plan/

[grunt]

I made the point to Board Member Fife Hyland that after 30 years of highs and (mostly) lows, the proposed return to a ten team league is the first time I have came to the view that the 2 season tickets I purchase will not be renewed.What did he say?

[K.Marx]

Well, we all need to vote with our feet in that case!

exactly! no point going on messageboards and moaning about it, the only way anything will happen is if fans refuse to renew season tickets. not just hibs fans, but all those who are against a 10 team SPL.

[TheEastTerrace]

It's all about the money. Unsustainable debt, poor finances and over-spending by the SPL clubs have led them to this decision. Behind this all charade of 'revolution', lies a desperate need for cash. I have no doubt that the clubs will have consulted their TV paymasters, SKY and ESPN, about the various options. I'm sure commercial sponsors will have been canvassed too. All clubs will be arguing to retain their four fixtures against the Old Firm based on gate receipts too, and obviously, the uglies will want to play each other four times per season.

These needs and wants will come before the fans. Why? Because football club loyalty is possibly the one of the strongest bonds between 'brand' and 'consumer' in the world. They are all counting on us simply to have a wee mope and groan about it, but ultimately accept it and get back to watching the football.

If you are that serious about protesting against the decision, don't go. Hibs and the SPL won't be seeing another penny from me. Simple as that. If you don't like, don't go. They are obviously not listening to the fans, so hey, just severe ties with the SPL. The clubs can fall on their own swords as far as I'm concerned. They have said 'we don't give a f£ck about you' today. Well, cheerio guys, thanks for the memories.

Personally, I believe Scottish football's ills are much more than just league structure, but today, they have chosen to accelerate the inevitable death of the game in Scotland.

[Beefster]

The folllowing quote from Topping (who he?) sums it up for me.
"If you look at Scottish football, a 16-team league wouldn't work economically and it would have a knock-on effect in terms of the quality of players you can attract. It's two 10s or the status quo in my view."

Even if you believe his view - personally I would be happy for Hibs to trade money/quality for a more competitive league and more games at 3pm on a Saturday. The general fact is that teams outwith OF crash in burn with the current "quality" players.....so what are we losing out on?

I made the point to Board Member Fife Hyland that after 30 years of highs and (mostly) lows, the proposed return to a ten team league is the first time I have came to the view that the 2 season tickets I purchase will not be renewed.
Based on this mornings feedback looks like it is going to happen.

Of course I will continue to attend games- but on my terms at 3pm on a Saturday (won't miss seeing the OF bigots in the slightest) - and it will save me (but lose Hibs) cash.

I neither here or there on the proposals. Watching Hibs is watching Hibs. However, why do you think the a bigger league will be more competitive? Rangers and Celtic will have fewer games against teams like Hibs and Hearts so will probably be even further ahead of the rest.

If there are more games at 3pm on a Saturday, that just means that there is less TV money. Folk are screaming for investment in the team now - can you imagine the cuts if TV money goes?

[PolmontHibby]

What did he say?

To summarise, "points noted and circulated around Board, there will be a lot of debate on subject".

"and to the chairman who is attending the meeting"................who based on feedback happily ignored supporters views.

[R'Albin]

Please join the Facebook petition and have your say!


Petition against a 10 team SPL1 and SPL2

Link please?

[whiskyhibby]

Previously was not in favour of a 14 or 16 team league but the thought now of 10 teams just kills me.

It is of course for financial reasons and TV but if they gave a 2.5 year notice period it would give enough time for everyone to get their house in order, back to mostly 3pm Sat kick offs and reasonable ST prices.

Get the fans back first as they ain't coming back under this proposal


Could someone in the know tell me how much TV cash we get on average a season per game (assuming 18 home games), is it say £50,000, £30,000............£10,000?

for every £10,000 per game, that equates to say 500 fans, £50,00 being 2500 per home game, how many would a competitive league add per home game?

[Beefster]

Could someone in the know tell me how much TV cash we get on average a season per game (assuming 18 home games), is it say £50,000, £30,000............£10,000?

for every £10,000 per game, that equates to say 500 fans, £50,00 being 2500 per home game, how many would a competitive league add per home game?

I asked this earlier to another poster but as you mentioned it too.....

When you say competitive, do you mean easier teams for Hibs to play against? You surely don't mean that Rangers and Celtic won't still be miles ahead of everyone else?

[whiskyhibby]

I asked this earlier to another poster but as you mentioned it too.....

When you say competitive, do you mean easier teams for Hibs to play against? You surely don't mean that Rangers and Celtic won't still be miles ahead of everyone else?


I mean truely competitive by whichever means we can be on the same playing field as all other teams in the league, even if we have to think of something truely radical like the last 4 play-off for the league

[Ritchie]

There is no way I will ever buy a season ticket for a ten team league.

**** that

[Woody1985]

The proposals weren't just meant to be about increasing competition, it was also to harness development by getting players at the top level of our game.

14 teams with a split and ten teams below keep everyone happy.

[Woody1985]

And the competition increase in a larger 16 or 18 team league comes from not playing the OF for 24 points which means that any team can put a run together and the finances they have doesn't give them as much of a head start.

These changes are only getting pushed through now because they've ran the competition into the ground and now can't compete it Europe. This will at least keep them a long way ahead of the pack and a crack at the CL.

[lucky]

Bitterly disappointed with the proposals. No one wants a ten team league. my gut feeling I will not be renewing. I work a way a lot and often work longer hours to free up the time to get to games. Often travel up from down south and back for midweek games. As for renewing my ST ticket, my initial reaction is I wont bother as it appears more games will now be on TV. Was looking at Manchester united prices for a EPL match against Stoke its £33-£46 our last game against Hearts £26-£28. The SPL is way over priced for the product. Playing each other 4 times a season is dire. Just leave it as it is.

[clerriehibs]

Why don`t the SFA come up with a directive that suggests we bring a bit of entertainment back into the game with teams trying to beat each other home and away and with more players like Paddy McCourt, Templeton and our very own Zemmama being afforded more protection in their quest to actually beat a defender and make things happen, the structure is only part of the problem.

templetosser got all the protection he needed in the derby. Free-kick for running into someone's leg and falling over? Laughable.

[ancient hibee]

It's interesting that some of those most wanting 16/18 teams are too young to have experienced it.Much of the football was meaningless with for many clubs the season over by Christmas-crowds were poor.

At the moment we play 4 times against 5 teams and 3 times against 6 teams with the stupid split(so 3 against 6 is replaced by 4 against 4 so not exactly a huge change).

How many teams were in the league the last time it was won by a non OF club?

[PolmontHibby]

I neither here or there on the proposals. Watching Hibs is watching Hibs. However, why do you think the a bigger league will be more competitive? Rangers and Celtic will have fewer games against teams like Hibs and Hearts so will probably be even further ahead of the rest.

If there are more games at 3pm on a Saturday, that just means that there is less TV money. Folk are screaming for investment in the team now - can you imagine the cuts if TV money goes?

Views are of course personal and no doubt differ fan to fan.

There is more to it for me than just watching Hibs (or I would just watch an illegal feed for free), socialising before and after a game is an important part and Saturday 3pm is a lot better (and easier from a family point of view than all the Sunday games - a good proportion that I miss already).
Taking a Topping view - a season ticket is already not "financially viable" for me.

As for competition, again a personal view (although accept the OF are financially miles ahead under any scenario)
1) any change which reduces the number of games played (and points lost) to OF has the potential to level out the league to a certain degree (a 3rd place team beating the rest would not be as far away ..........however maybe some anorak can prove me wrong).
2) One of the McLeish points on the financials was that a larger league would spread out existing cash among a larger number of teams........which in my view would decrease the revenue differentials between teams, again bringing them closer together.

I cant imagine the cuts if TV money reduced, as I do not know how much each team in the SPL gets. If I believe articles, overall deal is £12m a year, and the OF get ab out £5m of that total. Rather than the SPL treating fans like mugs who will buy season tickets under any scenario......maybe they should try treating us like adults and explain the financial impact and views of TV companies on going to a larger league in detail.

[GreenCastle]

It's interesting that some of those most wanting 16/18 teams are too young to have experienced it.Much of the football was meaningless with for many clubs the season over by Christmas-crowds were poor.

At the moment we play 4 times against 5 teams and 3 times against 6 teams with the stupid split(so 3 against 6 is replaced by 4 against 4 so not exactly a huge change).

How many teams were in the league the last time it was won by a non OF club?

Maybe young people but also the future of the game :confused:

10 team didn't work before
16 team didn't work before
12 team isn't working now

10 team WON'T work again = kill Scottish Football

[Gatecrasher]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9338023.stm

:no way:

if this goes through i will think seriously about doing something different with my time after next season.

[clerriehibs]

I think it will start the season after next. Which will mean 3 go down next season with 1 coming up.

Did you read that somewhere, or is it your thoughts? Can't see the SPL voting 3 down - it'll be 2 down with none up, I reckon, with the 8 SFL clubs being told they're lucky to be included in the new SPL format.

And in previous years, reconstruction has begun immediately the season after it's been voted for, if I recollect rightly. So, the 2 down relegation will be this year.

[Keith_M]

I personally would like to see 16 or 18 teams, but I think a lot of the comments on on here don't make much sense.

Why would so many consider stopping going to games because the league is reduced from 12 to 10 teams? Surely there'll be no real difference to what we have at present? It's not a positive or negative move but more a status quo. So what's the big deal?

[GreenCastle]

I personally would like to see 16 or 18 teams, but I think a lot of the comments on on here don't make much sense.

Why would so many consider stopping going to games because the league is reduced from 12 to 10 teams? Surely there'll be no real difference to what we have at present? It's not a positive or negative move but more a status quo. So what's the big deal?

They have a chance to change it and make it more interesting - right now it's a dying product which is boring to watch - especially the same teams x4 a season.

Instead they change it so the same product is just as boring with less teams but still play each other 4 times a season.

What other professional leagues play each other 4 teams a season ? :confused:

[down-the-slope]

Just heard Neil Doncaster being interviewed...first time there has been admission of real reason....Money

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster also spoke of the economic argument against a 16 or 18-team top division, saying it would "involve the decimation of finances in Scottish football".
"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," he explained.
"There would be fewer games and there is no doubt, from a TV point of view, there would be less money coming into the game."

I thought the top clubs were always moaning there were too many games (particularly with European matches)

They were claiming 10 10 would let more money filter down....but here the truth is clear...no intention of letting money leave the big boys...

[hibbytam]

I personally would like to see 16 or 18 teams, but I think a lot of the comments on on here don't make much sense.

Why would so many consider stopping going to games because the league is reduced from 12 to 10 teams? Surely there'll be no real difference to what we have at present? It's not a positive or negative move but more a status quo. So what's the big deal?

I think the problem most people are having is that the fans are being ignored, again. All the polls that have asked fans what they wanted have strongly backed a 16/18 team league. I can't think of any other form of business that would completely ignore their customers wishes, its our money that gives them jobs, they should be working for us, and they're not.

[Gatecrasher]

I personally would like to see 16 or 18 teams, but I think a lot of the comments on on here don't make much sense.

Why would so many consider stopping going to games because the league is reduced from 12 to 10 teams? Surely there'll be no real difference to what we have at present? It's not a positive or negative move but more a status quo. So what's the big deal?

From a personal perspective Scottish Football for me is boring, im only really going because that's what i have always done. This is a great chance to change things for the better, not for the short term, the long term and fix some of the wrongs in our domestic game. Even things up a bit for the non OF teams and bring some new teams and format to our leagues, however despite putting thousands of pounds into Hibs and Scottish football for the last 20 odd years the fans voice is ignored (again!) they are brining back a tired format that failed last time around only to sustain the current situation and make sure the suits get paid.

im a fair bit pissed with this TBH

[Keith_M]

I think the problem most people are having is that the fans are being ignored, again. All the polls that have asked fans what they wanted have strongly backed a 16/18 team league. I can't think of any other form of business that would completely ignore their customers wishes, its our money that gives them jobs, they should be working for us, and they're not.

OK, I see that. So it's not the change itself but the lack of any meaningful change when they had the chance. Fair Enuff.

[GreenCastle]

Just heard Neil Doncaster being interviewed...first time there has been admission of real reason....Money

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster also spoke of the economic argument against a 16 or 18-team top division, saying it would "involve the decimation of finances in Scottish football".
"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," he explained.
"There would be fewer games and there is no doubt, from a TV point of view, there would be less money coming into the game."

I thought the top clubs were always moaning there were too many games (particularly with European matches)

They were claiming 10 10 would let more money filter down....but here the truth is clear...no intention of letting money leave the big boys...

I thought the exact same thing.

Basically the SPL 1 getting richer and the rest of Scottish teams dying with no money.

It would be easy to say yes and go along like the Old Firm and take all the slice of the pie - but that's just not good for the youth levels, the domestic league or the national team.

I think it really sounds like a greed of money more than anything - especially in this economic climate.

It's a dangerous game to ignore your paying customers here - as I am sure many fans throughout the SPL will vote with not giving money to the league next season if this is given the green light.

[aberhibsfc]

Please join the Facebook petition and have your say!


Petition against a 10 team SPL1 and SPL2

I wouldn't mind an SPL1 & SPL2, but only if the top tier was 16 teams.

[s.a.m]

OK, I see that. So it's not the change itself but the lack of any meaningful change when they had the chance. Fair Enuff.

Actually, for me it's both the lack of empathy with what the fans want, and the change itself. I don't want to meet any other team 4 times on league duty (with up to 3 potential cup encounters as well) - it's boring. I would rather we met more teams, less often.

[aberhibsfc]

I personally would like to see 16 or 18 teams, but I think a lot of the comments on on here don't make much sense.

Why would so many consider stopping going to games because the league is reduced from 12 to 10 teams? Surely there'll be no real difference to what we have at present? It's not a positive or negative move but more a status quo. So what's the big deal?

Yeah, I agree to a certain extent that hard core fans will always turn up. But there are many things that torment me about this. Without rambling here's my two main:

1 - This will not attract new fans to football.
2 - Probably most importantly player development, with no reserve football it would be even more difficult to develop youngsters, when it was top ten previously managers were even more shy about blooding youngsters. At least back then we had reserve and reserve east. This will take us back to these days.

I could go on about how in a ten team league 3 points a win and playing the OF 4 times a season each could potentially lose you 24 points a season with less teams in the league to pick up other points. OF will have increased voting power within ten teams to bully which will be much easier than cajoling 12 or even 16 in agreeing to give them 60-80% of the TV money. It also makes me laugh, OF dine on bigotry and glory hunters but also manage to squeeze more out the TV deals then moan about competition.
:fuming:

[ancient hibee]

Yeah, I agree to a certain extent that hard core fans will always turn up. But there are many things that torment me about this. Without rambling here's my two main:

1 - This will not attract new fans to football.
2 - Probably most importantly player development, with no reserve football it would be even more difficult to develop youngsters, when it was top ten previously managers were even more shy about blooding youngsters. At least back then we had reserve and reserve east. This will take us back to these days.

I could go on about how in a ten team league 3 points a win and playing the OF 4 times a season each could potentially lose you 24 points a season with less teams in the league to pick up other points. OF will have increased voting power within ten teams to bully which will be much easier than cajoling 12 or even 16 in agreeing to give them 60-80% of the TV money. It also makes me laugh, OF dine on bigotry and glory hunters but also manage to squeeze more out the TV deals then moan about competition.
:fuming:
The only reason the Of get most out of the TV deal is through finishing1/2nd.The season Hearts finished 2nd they got the second best pay out-seems fair.About half the money is divided equally by 12 and the rest goes into the prize pool.

[BEEJ]

Did you read that somewhere, or is it your thoughts? Can't see the SPL voting 3 down - it'll be 2 down with none up, I reckon, with the 8 SFL clubs being told they're lucky to be included in the new SPL format.

And in previous years, reconstruction has begun immediately the season after it's been voted for, if I recollect rightly. So, the 2 down relegation will be this year.
That would mean that the main pitfall for the SPL sides this season had been radically amended mid-way through the league campaign.

Hardly fair and if RP votes for that approach he'll probably end up a turkey.

[SteveHFC]

Why don't we all protest at the next round of SPL games.

[Dr What If?]

Here is the deal, I'm going to start a business and I'm going to tell the customer what they will buy and what they will pay. If they don't like it, tough. It's best for me and they will just have to do what I tell them.

I have finally had it with Scottish football. I can't believe MY club agreed to this. Those idiots have just agreed to kill Scottish football for a generation.

[clerriehibs]

That would mean that the main pitfall for the SPL sides this season had been radically amended mid-way through the league campaign.

Hardly fair and if RP votes for that approach he'll probably end up a turkey.


Haven't Hibs voted mid-season in the past (late 90s) in favour of some proposal which would save us from relegation when it looked as though we were going to finish bottom (tho' I think St Midden did in the end) ...

[SteveHFC]

http://www.petitiononline.com/10teamsp/petition-sign.html

[IWasThere2016]

Just heard Neil Doncaster being interviewed...first time there has been admission of real reason....Money

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster also spoke of the economic argument against a 16 or 18-team top division, saying it would "involve the decimation of finances in Scottish football".
"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," he explained.
"There would be fewer games and there is no doubt, from a TV point of view, there would be less money coming into the game."

I thought the top clubs were always moaning there were too many games (particularly with European matches)

They were claiming 10 10 would let more money filter down....but here the truth is clear...no intention of letting money leave the big boys...

:agree: Fans don't have a say but are expected to pay. Not one dissenting voice from any of the top tier clubs - pathetic IMHO

[down the slope]

Was there not a fans forum where we could discuss these sort of things with the board ?, lets tell Rod how it is , most fans do not want this but it is being forced on us, either get him to change his mind or do not renew next season.

[Beefster]

Folk keep talking about youth development but didn't we have a better international team when we had a ten team top league?

[SRHibs]

If this is voted through I can't see me going back. Never ever before have I been tempted to turn my back on Hibs/Scottish Football as a whole, but I'm just getting disillusioned with Scottish Football in its entirety.

[Wembley67]

Was there not a fans forum where we could discuss these sort of things with the board ?, lets tell Rod how it is , most fans do not want this but it is being forced on us, either get him to change his mind or do not renew next season.

exactly. Sfa should set up a fans roadshow at ALL the grounds and see exactly what eveyone has to say. They have the chance to change Scottish football forever, get the balls and do it properly.

[Hibee Daz]

And the competition increase in a larger 16 or 18 team league comes from not playing the OF for 24 points which means that any team can put a run together and the finances they have doesn't give them as much of a head start.

These changes are only getting pushed through now because they've ran the competition into the ground and now can't compete it Europe. This will at least keep them a long way ahead of the pack and a crack at the CL.
:agree: 110%

****in disgraceful so it is.:grr::brickwall:grr::brickwall:grr::brickwall:g rr::brickwall:grr:

[since90plustwo]

should be a 16 team league at least! what does taking two teams out it mean? if you add more teams, its more exciting for the fans as you dont play the same team 4 times! the playoff is a farce aswell, i know it would be good for hibs, but its unfair on other teams. the team that has the most points at the end of the season shold win, unfair on a team to play well for so many games, finish 20 points ahead and have a bad couple of games and loose the league?

[PolmontHibby]

:agree: Fans don't have a say but are expected to pay. Not one dissenting voice from any of the top tier clubs - pathetic IMHO

Pathetic is the word.

The outcome from McLeish/SPL seems to amount to nothing more than keeping the "cake" amongst as few clubs as possible............with a few soundbites added on. Although given the SPL exists due to the larger clubs wanting a bigger slice of the cake should we be surprised.

[.Sean.]

Why don't we all protest at the next round of SPL games.
I think a huge, one-week SPL boycott should be considered. I don't know a single fan who is backing the proposal.



WHEN WILL THESE ***** THAT ARE RUINING FOOTBALL GIVE US, THE FANS, THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME, WHAT WE ****ING WANT?

[woody47]

And what would that do to Hibernian's £2m a year operating deficit?

At this moment in time I couldn't give a flying one. More important things in life than to give ANY club money who do not care what the fans want.

Maybe once these clubs start seeing that they can push fans so far before they really start to see the deficits getting higher only then will they actually have some sort of fan forum and give the paying public what the paying public want.

This set up is pure greed for a few top teams and it won't be long until more clubs start going out of business. We will also see clubs having to spend even more to bring in 'better' players just to keep them in a top ten and as we have seen already with teams like Livy, Dundee and Gretna the sums just do not add up.

[Gatecrasher]

more reaction from other fans here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F19898449?thread=7969351&show=50

[greenginger]

Trouble is I don't think any of today's decision makers were involved in football administration last time there was a 10 team league.

I seem to remember back in the mid 70's it was all new and exciting playing the O F, Jambos , etc every other week but after a couple of seasons it became monotonous dog eat dog type of competition and will pan out exactly the same this time.

Attendances dropped drastically not just at E R but all over the country except Aberdeen who were very successful at the time. The crowd stats for those seasons should be sent to Doncaster and Co and see if that fits their Economic Model.

If crowds plummet the whole cake shrinks and even bigger slices turn out smaller.

[Goal, Archibald]

The biggest problem I see is that what is possibly for the benefit of Scottish football, when it comes to the voting, may not be in the interest of individual clubs when they are voting.

Interesting debate this, there are pro's and con's on all sides. I will freely admit that I don't know what the answer is. All I know is Scottish football needs something to shake it up - what that something is though...

[s.a.m]

The biggest problem I see is that what is possibly for the benefit of Scottish football, when it comes to the voting, may not be in the interest of individual clubs when they are voting.


..

You're not wrong, and it's desperately disappointing that the much needed review of the structure of the Scottish Football has been reduced to a selfish divvy-ing up of the financial 'cake' (Doncaster) by a small number of vested interests.

[Matty_Jack04]

Just heard Neil Doncaster being interviewed...first time there has been admission of real reason....Money

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster also spoke of the economic argument against a 16 or 18-team top division, saying it would "involve the decimation of finances in Scottish football".
"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," he explained.
"There would be fewer games and there is no doubt, from a TV point of view, there would be less money coming into the game."

I thought the top clubs were always moaning there were too many games (particularly with European matches)

They were claiming 10 10 would let more money filter down....but here the truth is clear...no intention of letting money leave the big boys...

after watching the BBC clip i was drawn to these quotes myself.

Why are they sitting round there table discussing peices of the pie theyd all get from TV money, how can they possibly know what figures to expect? sky and espn have contracts regarding 12 teams and x amount of live games per season this re-construction is more or less ripping it up!

Why are they not attempting to make the SPL product worthy of selling, putting up for the highest bidder instead of just admitting defeat that what we have is all we're ever going to get!

Greed is all these people have ever known, i expected so much more (christ knows why) and have been let down massivley if this SPL1 & 2 goes ahead i'll be finding something else to do with my time and money

[marinello59]

12 SPL teams have agreed in principal to a boring 2 tier ten team league

have ruled out 16 or 18 team setup .... thoughts anyone ?

Season ticket sales will hit an all time low. Stuff paying over £400 up front for a ten team top league which has already been a proven turn off.

[green is good]

Just heard Neil Doncaster being interviewed...first time there has been admission of real reason....Money

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster also spoke of the economic argument against a 16 or 18-team top division, saying it would "involve the decimation of finances in Scottish football".
"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," he explained.
"There would be fewer games and there is no doubt, from a TV point of view, there would be less money coming into the game."

I thought the top clubs were always moaning there were too many games (particularly with European matches)

They were claiming 10 10 would let more money filter down....but here the truth is clear...no intention of letting money leave the big boys...


What I don't get about this is that a sixteen or eighteen team league means "The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices" but having two leagues of ten seemingly doesn't. Is the money for SPL2 coming from the SPL or is it coming from somewhere else?

[bingo70]

Can't be ersed reading through the whole thread but has someone worked out how much extra the managing directors/chief executives or whatever they're called benefit financially from 2 leagues of ten considering it'll be pretty similiar to what it is now?

There seems to be a lot of resentment about decisions being made based on finances but the clubs are doing what they can to survive not to piss the fans off, if there was viable alternatives then they'd go with them and a 16 or 18 team league simply isn't viable as long as the old firm are in it, the TV companies need them to play each other 4 times and the clubs need the TV money to survive, not to pay themselves fortunes.

I saw a suggestion for a 14 team league that looked feasable but that'll have been discussed and for a reason, it's not a possibility.

[Woody1985]

Here's an idea, leave the top league the same and add the playoff and implement everything else. No ****ing about.

[matty_f]

Not financially viable :confused: Poppycock!
Live within your finances then instead of spending what you don't have, then we will see teams develope young quality players instead of buying them and paying wages they can't afford. It may be a step back for 5 or 10 years but it will eventually come good.
A 10 team league will be the death of Scottish football. I'd rather go watch the Highland League.

:top marks

For too long we've over-paid for the standard that we get just to keep the players in Scottish football.

A wholesale reduction of spend in Scottish football is almost the only conceivable way I can see to save the game.

Even the OF spend way over the odds getting players that would barely get into bottom half EPL sides. They're not good enough to compete properly in Europe and so the amount of money they spend can't possibly justify the return.

Better everyone stripped back their spend, concentrated on producing local talent good enough to compete with the European sides. Get smaller teams into the top flight, let them get money to develop players as well.

I heard someone on the radio make the point that Davie Cooper and Davie Provan weren't produced by Rangers and Celtc, but Clyde.

I would rather pay half the money that I pay on football just now, to watch home-grown players play in a competitive league, hungry to better themselves to make their money in the game.

[Gatecrasher]

http://www.petitiononline.com/10teamsp/petition-sign.html

Signed

449 signatures.

Is this your one? You should spread the word and get more sigs :agree:

[bingo70]

:top marks

For too long we've over-paid for the standard that we get just to keep the players in Scottish football.

A wholesale reduction of spend in Scottish football is almost the only conceivable way I can see to save the game.

Even the OF spend way over the odds getting players that would barely get into bottom half EPL sides. They're not good enough to compete properly in Europe and so the amount of money they spend can't possibly justify the return.

Better everyone stripped back their spend, concentrated on producing local talent good enough to compete with the European sides. Get smaller teams into the top flight, let them get money to develop players as well.

I heard someone on the radio make the point that Davie Cooper and Davie Provan weren't produced by Rangers and Celtc, but Clyde.

I would rather pay half the money that I pay on football just now, to watch home-grown players play in a competitive league, hungry to better themselves to make their money in the game.


The problem with that is that teams have already overspent, hibs included, we've got players on contracts, got a mortgage for the stadium and debts that have been accumulated while we were over-spending, this would kill clubs not just put them back a few years.

In theory i like the idea, however for it to work teams would need about 5-10 years notice to try and clear the debts and even then during that time TV revenues would drop as would sponsorship money so teams just couldn't afford to continue, i just don't think it's practical.

[Hibby D]

I'll not be renewing our ST's :no way:

[SteveHFC]

Signed

449 signatures.

Is this your one? You should spread the word and get more sigs :agree:

Nope mate. I found it on facebook.

[matty_f]

The problem with that is that teams have already overspent, hibs included, we've got players on contracts, got a mortgage for the stadium and debts that have been accumulated while we were over-spending, this would kill clubs not just put them back a few years.

In theory i like the idea, however for it to work teams would need about 5-10 years notice to try and clear the debts and even then during that time TV revenues would drop as would sponsorship money so teams just couldn't afford to continue, i just don't think it's practical.

Yep, I get that, they should just put the change further down the line, give teams 5-10 seasons grace to get themselves sorted out, why not?

[BEEJ]

The folllowing quote from Topping (who he?) sums it up for me.
"If you look at Scottish football, a 16-team league wouldn't work economically and it would have a knock-on effect in terms of the quality of players you can attract. It's two 10s or the status quo in my view."
Hang on! So more income at one end; but inevitably it all gets pissed away on higher and higher players' wages and agents' fees as clubs, driven by the greater intensity of competition and desperate to avoid relegation to SPL2, vie for mediocre journeymen and pay them over the odds.

That's been the pattern in the SPL until recently and in the EPL. This year, clubs were beginning to talk seriously about having to face up to their debts. Now they won't really have to - great!! :rolleyes:


These changes are only getting pushed through now because they've ran the competition into the ground and now can't compete it Europe. This will at least keep them a long way ahead of the pack and a crack at the CL.
:agree: Clearly being steered by an OF agenda.


Here is the deal, I'm going to start a business and I'm going to tell the customer what they will buy and what they will pay. If they don't like it, tough. It's best for me and they will just have to do what I tell them.
Accurate description - they ought to be making vast profits with an attitude like that. But guess what? Only the players and their agents will gain.


This set up is pure greed for a few top teams and it won't be long until more clubs start going out of business. We will also see clubs having to spend even more to bring in 'better' players just to keep them in a top ten and as we have seen already with teams like Livy, Dundee and Gretna the sums just do not add up.
:top marks Spot on.


:top marks

For too long we've over-paid for the standard that we get just to keep the players in Scottish football.

A wholesale reduction of spend in Scottish football is almost the only conceivable way I can see to save the game.

Even the OF spend way over the odds getting players that would barely get into bottom half EPL sides. They're not good enough to compete properly in Europe and so the amount of money they spend can't possibly justify the return.

Better everyone stripped back their spend, concentrated on producing local talent good enough to compete with the European sides. Get smaller teams into the top flight, let them get money to develop players as well.

I heard someone on the radio make the point that Davie Cooper and Davie Provan weren't produced by Rangers and Celtc, but Clyde.

I would rather pay half the money that I pay on football just now, to watch home-grown players play in a competitive league, hungry to better themselves to make their money in the game.
:top marks Brilliant! The kind of radical shake-up that the game needs. Give that man Doncaster's job and pack that eejit back off down south.


The problem with that is that teams have already overspent, hibs included, we've got players on contracts, got a mortgage for the stadium and debts that have been accumulated while we were over-spending, this would kill clubs not just put them back a few years.
Guess what Bingo, the club you support is much more aligned and ready for that kind of future than the majority of the other teams in the SPL.

It would be to Hibs advantage relative to the competition.

[BroxburnHibee]

Yep, I get that, they should just put the change further down the line, give teams 5-10 seasons grace to get themselves sorted out, why not?

Personally I don't feel their is much desire to 'sort themselves out' If they wanted to they could have a long time ago.

This whole thing is about generating TV deals and new sponsorship so they can keep living beyond their means.

I've said it before - the fans and what they want are not even considered. We don't count.

I think its probably an attitude spread right across all boardrooms in Scotland that the fans will keep spending their hard earned whatever the product.

They're probably right.

[millarco]

Here's an idea, leave the top league the same and add the playoff and implement everything else. No ****ing about.

:agree:

I think a top league of 12 is about right for a country of our size. Make it much bigger and teams won't have anything to play for, any smaller and it gets overly competitive. Add an additional relegation play-off spot, re-structure the lower leagues and look at a reserve/B-sides etc. Though to be fair I seem to be one of the few who actually likes the split-creates a good end to the season when there is a '6-pointer' or two every week.

The Old Firm will naturally dominate regardless of the structure, there is no magical league size that'll change that.

[brog]

http://www.petitiononline.com/10teamsp/petition-sign.html

Signed, thanks!! I was #609 so it's growing quickly.
We all know the Tache only thinks through his wallet so let's make him aware of the possible cost to Hibs. I estimate any potential loss from not having 4 games against OF & Yams would be roughly same as 1,000 season tickets not being renewed. I'll be writing to RP to tell him my season ticket will not be renewed, I suggest everyone who feels strongly about this should do likewise.

[GreenCastle]

Will plans for a new SPL affect how you watch Hibs ?

[SlickShoes]

I will still go to games but they may be in division1 at this rate.

[Removed]

I'm a Hibs supporter. Why wouldn't I go and support my team :confused:

[smurf]

More interested in what's happening in the SFL...

Well not really.

Thomson at Dundee Utd has called all of this right IMO.

[GreenCastle]

I'm a Hibs supporter. Why wouldn't I go and support my team :confused:

Cost / Value for money ?
Fed up with product ?
Lack of ambition ?

It seems many will stop going to games if they change to a 10 team SPL according to the other thread.

[blackpoolhibs]

Cost / Value for money ?
Fed up with product ?
Lack of ambition ?

It seems many will stop going to games if they change to a 10 team SPL according to the other thread.

:agree: The league is so boring, and people are picking their games more and more. A 10 team league will only imo make this more prevalent. I can see season ticket sales dropping not only at Hibs, but most clubs.

[Phil MaGlass]

should have added will you renew season ticket on the poll

[Matty_Jack04]

tin hat on

I wont be going back as i said in a previous thread, greed is ruining our game im not happy paying £20+ at the gate or £400 for a season ticket when there is no entertainment, we play the same teams numerous times ( jst past xmas we'v played killie 3 times) and more to the point is that if the chairman of my football club can toss aside the fans feelings for change just so he can keep his fat yearly bonus then he's lost my support, this isnt what i want so i wont be paying for it.

[GreenCastle]

should have added will you renew season ticket on the poll

I started with that - The other thread was full of people saying they wouldn't renew.

To keep it simple I just wanted 3 options.

[Ritchie]

i wont be renewing my ST.

doesn't mean ill never return to ER again though.

[WindyMiller]

More interested in what's happening in the SFL...

Well not really.

Thomson at Dundee Utd has called all of this right IMO.

We'll see which way he votes.

[steakbake]

10 team SPL doesn't really float my boat however, the 2 up 2 down would be a refreshing change from the pishy 1 down 1 up (if the stadium is up to it).

The leagues need to be far more structured though - it has to be possible for a team to climb from below division 3 into the main leagues. There's been no relegation despite there being teams who are itching for a chance. We have to have a system where the bottom 2 of the third get relegated. I think that would improve Scottish football at a grass roots level much more than anything else. It would give juniors and amateurs something to actually play for and aspire to.

Lets be honest, when they talk about the financial benefits or the financial problem of the 16-18 team SPL, they're really talking about Rangers and Celtic losing money. However, I do think that a proper league of 16/18 teams with relegation and a better turnover of teams would make Scottish footie - the product - a bit more appealing.

It's still a bit offensive to think that it costs 20/30 quid to go see p1ss poor games.

[SlickShoes]

10 team SPL doesn't really float my boat however, the 2 up 2 down would be a refreshing change from the pishy 1 down 1 up (if the stadium is up to it).

The leagues need to be far more structured though - it has to be possible for a team to climb from below division 3 into the main leagues. There's been no relegation despite there being teams who are itching for a chance. We have to have a system where the bottom 2 of the third get relegated. I think that would improve Scottish football at a grass roots level much more than anything else. It would give juniors and amateurs something to actually play for and aspire to.

Lets be honest, when they talk about the financial benefits or the financial problem of the 16-18 team SPL, they're really talking about Rangers and Celtic losing money. However, I do think that a proper league of 16/18 teams with relegation and a better turnover of teams would make Scottish footie - the product - a bit more appealing.

It's still a bit offensive to think that it costs 20/30 quid to go see p1ss poor games.

Most of the juniors are happy in there own world they dont even want promotion to the main leagues they make more money in junior football than they ever would in the big leagues.

I do agree we need structure where its possible to drop from Division 3, in my opinion though our country is that small we should have two 16/18 team leagues and then regional football below that, having 4 pro / semi pro leagues in a country our size is just daft.

[Hibee Daz]

Yes I will still go as I haven't fallen out of love with Hibs, just Scottish fitba!

I will however only be a walk up supporter picking and choosing my games, no more ST's bought from me.:boo hoo:

[3pm]

£50-£60 off season tickets with the 10 team league?

[jgl07]

Not only would I not renew my season ticket if the plan goes ahead, I will not attend any SPL matches from the time that the resolution is passed. That includes any outstanding matches this season.

I may go to SFL Cup and SFA Cup matches if the mood takes me. However I suspect that any football I watch will be south of the border.

Fortunately the proposals seem to be dead in the water despite the spin being put out. Dundee United will oppose and I suspect that so will at least one or two other SPL clubs.

It appears that the SFL clubs such as Dunfermine will also vote to block the scheme. You cannot bring in a 10+10 setup without at least the tacit agreement of the SFL or at least the majority of Division One clubs.

It took a lot of hassle to get the SPL breakaway approved even though it was simply rebadging the existing 10-team SFL Premier Division as the SPL. The move from 12 and then to 14 was promised as part of the agreement with the SFL over this issue.

[GreenCastle]

£50-£60 off season tickets with the 10 team league?


Interesting point...

Less games so surely the season ticket prices will have to be lowered ?

[mglancy23]

If it is a 10 team league then i will continue to support Hibs but will not renew my season ticket.

i will pick and choose my games which will probably mean seeing every team once at easter road with the exemption of hearts as i will go to both. I will still go to Scottish cup home and away games too.

my mate gets comps for away games so may still go to them, as i like a wee away trip now and then.

Bored of the same teams all the time, would be nice to visit a few away grounds and see some new teams play at easter road.

[mglancy23]

Interesting point...

Less games so surely the season ticket prices will have to be lowered ?

i cant see it being cheaper! they will say with increase costs etc the price will remain the same.

[pacorosssco]

has to be a bigger league . we have to think long term and if it immediatley less money then so be it but if the product improves tv money and crowds will improve.

there must be other ways to bump up revenue.

celtic rangers aberdeen hearts and dundee untited games home and away should be massively anticipated games.

16 team league with winter break first two weeks in jan.

hibs and hearts could even reintroduce the edinburgh cup to give a third derby and extra revenue at some point in season.

[Hibernian Verse]

If Hibs and Aberdeen were to go down due to this, the SPL would be kicking themselves. They reckon that we need to play the old firm more, but it will really hit them if they don't get the large away gates that we provide.

[allezsauzee]

I dont understand why introducing teams that are currently in the first division actually improves the SPL? Bearing in mind we are looking for more sponsorship and TV money , the less games that are contested between the big clubs, the less interested people will be in pumping money into the game and showing the games on TV. We should switch to summer football, apart from the weather being more conducive to better football and people attending. There is less competition in selling the TV rights. Sky are crying out for decent sport to keep people interested in May - August.

[Removed]

I dont understand why introducing teams that are currently in the first division actually improves the SPL? Bearing in mind we are looking for more sponsorship and TV money , the less games that are contested between the big clubs, the less interested people will be in pumping money into the game and showing the games on TV. We should switch to summer football, apart from the weather being more conducive to better football and people attending. There is less competition in selling the TV rights. Sky are crying out for decent sport to keep people interested in May - August.

Sky can **** off. They are part of the problem imo

[Hainan Hibs]

There is less competition in selling the TV rights. Sky are crying out for decent sport to keep people interested in May - August.

I'm afraid you just ended your own argument :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I'm not particularly enamoured with the proposed changes but I will continue watching Hibs, no matter what league they are in, or what structure that league takes.

I guess I'm the sort of fan that encourages the authorities to think that they can do what they want with the game in Scotland and the fans will blindly follow.

[allezsauzee]

OK so we give up trying to sell the sport and watch our teams slowly disappear, while the next generations just switch to watching English and Spanish football. Whether you like it or not, we need TV and sponsorship money and the prehistoric attitudes that have been shown in the past 20 years towards selling the product to bigger audiences has meant that we are falling further and further behind.

[Beefster]

£50-£60 off season tickets with the 10 team league?


Interesting point...

Less games so surely the season ticket prices will have to be lowered ?

You'd only be losing one home game (19 to 18) and, seeing as we'd be guaranteed 6 Category A games every season, you can guarantee that ST prices won't go down.

[Saorsa]

You'd only be losing one home game (19 to 18) and, seeing as we'd be guaranteed 6 Category A games every season, you can guarantee that ST prices won't go down.and every likelyhood they will still go up, which will just be one mair reason they can shove it where the sun disnae shine as far as I'm concerned.

[Hibeesb0unc3]

i dont know if i will renew my season ticket i may just buy a ticket for the derbies or against the old firm. As for the league it needs to be made bigger in order for teams to challenge celtic and rangers, because as the league is set up if you play celtic and rangers 4 times a season and lose 6 or 7 out of 8 that is 21 points lost and thats without losing to other teams. So with a bigger league it mean celtic and rangers would be able to take less points away from other teams and enabling for a competitive league and make it more of a spectacle for the fans.

[Sir David Gray]

You'd only be losing one home game (19 to 18) and, seeing as we'd be guaranteed 6 Category A games every season, you can guarantee that ST prices won't go down.

:agree: Whereas this season, we're probably only going to have 5 category A matches at Easter Road, as we'll likely only have one home match vs Celtic.

In fact under the current structure, if we finish in the bottom six one season, we could have as few as 4 category A home matches.

There's no way that the season ticket prices will decrease, if they go to a 10 team league

[frazeHFC]

Really don't want a 10 team league and think it will make a bad league worse. I would be totally fed up with Scottish football if it went ahead.

But i will never give up on the Hibees :flag:

[Woody1985]

Yes but I don't have a ST.

[flash]

If we are doing well more people will go. The league size is almost irrelevant in that respect.

[GreenPJ]

If the Scottish clubs genuinely wanted to improve the product they would turn around and try and model how they could run with a 20-30% reduction in income based on less games (bigger league) and smaller TV revenue. The issue is as so many clubs are in a big debt position this is almost impossible for a lot of them without either selling off all saleable assets and/or merging grounds with other clubs. Ironically though I do think you would probably get slightly bigger home crowds if you are only playing teams twice and playing new teams as well.

I am surprised at how vociferous Utd's chairman is in opposing the idea which is refreshing considering they are in deep debt but sadly still see the 10 team league going ahead.

[TheEastTerrace]

STV journos reporting that Utd, ICT, Killie and possibly Hearts are against the 10 team set up. In fact, ICT were under impression that proposals were for 12 or 14 team league. More than enough votes against to bat this out the park.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Here's a link that's got nothing to do with me but I thought it worth
sharing with the forum.

It's an online petition against the ten team SPL fiasco that's been tried
and tested and also failed before, and if people are opposed then let's make our voices heard.

Over 450 signatures in under 4 hours, pass it on and lets see if we can get
a few more zeros added to the end of that figure

http://www.petitiononline.com/10teamsp/petition.html

[Hibernian Verse]

Hearts of all clubs are standing up for us fans. Why can't our club do the same?

And who knows, if money starts to 'drain out of the game' as Doncaster says, we might actually see an improvement in our awful national side if we actually HAVE to find young talent.

[Skol]

I may be alone here, but I feel for the administrators in this as there is no easy solution.

A bigger league just doesnt work, we dont have enough quality to sustain it, and this was the whole reason we moved to the 10 team approach initially to get away from all the meaningless fixtures.

10 wasnt ideal ,too many teams were fearful of the drop ,although it did produce non old firm champions a few times.

12 isnt ideal as it either requires the split or 44 games ,neither of which are ideal.

The play off ideas are mostly stupid, other than the one we used to have of 2nd bottom playing 2nd top ,so only 1 guaranteed relagation per season and one possible.

Whatever happens I will still renew my season ticket and follow Hibs

[GreenCastle]

STV journos reporting that Utd, ICT, Killie and possibly Hearts are against the 10 team set up. In fact, ICT were under impression that proposals were for 12 or 14 team league. More than enough votes against to bat this out the park.

:thumbsup:

This is good news -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9339466.stm

This 11-1 vote makes me laugh :rolleyes:

I wish Hibs would tell us as fans their stance - pro's and cons for the club.

[sparky]

I may be alone here, but I feel for the administrators in this as there is no easy solution.

You are 100% correct there is no easy solution and I also think they have their work cut out for them as you can't please everyone (however I wouldn't still be trying to push through a proposal that displeases a huge majority).

But I have to take issue with this point:



10 wasnt ideal ,too many teams were fearful of the drop ,although it did produce non old firm champions a few times.


This is a classic example of the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy. :nerd: This result happened after this event so it must have been the cause.

For example every time I fall asleep with my shoes on I wake up with a hangover, so I must remember to take them off next time I come home blootered from the pub.

In fact if you do any research you'll see there were just as many non old firm champions with the 18 team set up.

No league setup is ideal. Too big a league (18, 20) equals less 'meaningful' fixtures for a lot of teams or in the case of 16 not enough games.

Too small (10) and then over familiarisation breeds apathy among support and players. Anywhere in between (12, 14) and we lose the parity of having the exact number of home and away games.

There have been numerous good suggestions that I've read on here and other forums, like a regular season then a knock out stage (which of course have drawbacks) but ultimately money talks and the people in charge seem to only be interested in the short term.

[jackhfc]

I signed up:agree:

Three times:wink:


Dunno if you're able to change the thread title, but an 'anti' at the start would suffice:thumbsup:

GGTTH!

[Keith_M]

I voted Yes but I'd rather have a 16/18 team league.

TBH, the people in charge don't care what we want.

[hibeenicol]

Will plans for a new SPL affect how you watch Hibs ?

I'll still go and see hibs but I definetly won't renew my season ticket, and I'll probably go to more away games.

[Speedy]

I voted "NO" but I was voting on the following question:

"Will plans for a new SPL affect how you watch Hibs ? "

I am now guessing that I was supposed to vote "YES".

[At The Edge]

tough question!
I, like many others on here love going to watch Hibs, the football maybe dire at the moment, but the banter, songs, crowd in general (i stand in 43 so that may swing me a bit :wink: )
and getting out the house for an afternoon is a great laugh.

Its in the blood, would be yite to stop going, although the top dogs (SPL) are trying very hard to make this happen

[jgl07]

If we are doing well more people will go. The league size is almost irrelevant in that respect.

Not a very bright remark! So we need a league where everyone wins?

It stands to sense that Hibs would win a higher proportion of matches under a 16/18-team setup than under a 10-team SPL.

There would be less turgid draws between teams who know each others' strengths and weaknesses backwards.

I am sick of the sight of Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, etc etc. I would welcome matches against the likes of Morton, Dunfermline, Raith, etc.

[basehibby]

Hibs are my team and I'll always go and watch them - but how often???

This 10 team league fiasco is doing nothing but deepening the disillusionment that many feel towards football in Scotland - I can remember way back when the 10 team format was ditched and thinking "thank ****** - a step in the right direction at least". Aeons later there has been no further movement forward from there and now the bread heads of the SPL are talking about dragging us BACKWARDS AGAIN in the name of profits from Sky TV.

We all know that this move will do nothing for the quality of football on display as the smaller league will inevitably encourage tighter low risk strategies on the pitch. That together with the dulling effect my disillusionment will have on my enthusiasm for the game in general is likely to see me attending fewer matches as I watch the whole shooting match going to hell in a hand cart.

[basehibby]

Signed (and BUMP)

[Sunny1875]

How if a 16 team league is not sustainable can the Norwegian Tippelegaen survive ?.

Norway has a smaller population than Scotland yet with a competitive league in 2007 managed an average attendance of just over 10,500, a Season where the traditional dominant team team Rosenberg finished outside the top 3.

As opposed to the SPL average attendance of under 13,950 for 2009/10, Bearing in mind that the Norwegians don't suffer from the same poison that we do here so the spread of fans is more even. Top clubs have stadia with capacities in the region of 17,000 to 25,000

Competing on a European front Rosenberg participated in the group phase of the Champions League eleven times in the twelve years between 1995 to 2006. Eight of them were consecutive (from 1995 to 2002), which was a record until 2004, when Manchester United qualified for the group phase for a ninth successive year.

The Rosenberg Squad contains a Uruguayan a Ghanaian 5 swedes and the rest are home grown Norwegians. Now how has Norwegian international Football fared lately ? 4–0 win over Scotland in 2010 wc qualifiers

[clerriehibs]

Hearts of all clubs are standing up for us fans. Why can't our club do the same?

And who knows, if money starts to 'drain out of the game' as Doncaster says, we might actually see an improvement in our awful national side if we actually HAVE to find young talent.

Hearts aren't standing up for their fans. They're still hoping to get some form of play-off for the championship. They'll vote against this until they get something along the lines of that, or until they realise it's not going to happen.

[woody47]

Used to be a time where you looked forward to playing OF and jambos. Now, it just doesn't have the same appeal. Although I still go (home and most away), it is more out of habit than anythiing else now. In fact it actually gets boring now.

[down-the-slope]

that are not supporting 10 10 league

Hope we are one of them

[Dr Jimmy]

Don't know the fourth, but D Utd. ICT & Killie not up for it.

[Violater]

Hearts are the other team against.

[Billy Whizz]

Don't know the fourth, but D Utd. ICT & Killie not up for it.

Hearts are the 4th team.

[Saorsa]

that are not supporting 10 10 league

Hope we are one of themWhy would we be one of them when Hibs are represented on the steering committee? :bitchy: :grr:

The 4 according tae the BBC are, Dundee United, Kilmarnock, Hearts and Inverness

[Sir David Gray]

Pretty sure we're one of the teams that are actively supporting the 10 team league.

We were certainly one of the few clubs that were involved in the initial action group, drawing up the proposals for a 10 team league, before it was put before the rest of the league.

[woody47]

Rod wants money not a club:agree: Fans really have nothing to do with what happens at the clubs contrary to what we all would like to think. Bottom line is the SPL chairmen voting for this are in it for the money and not the club and certainly not their supporters.

[smurf]

I could say.... but I'm becoming too predictable.

[JCHibby]

that are not supporting 10 10 league

Hope we are one of them

Aye I'll crack the gags, we have a chairman that couldn't give a flying what the fans want, all about the finances.

Sky are driving this 10 team nonsense as 4 OF games means big $$$

[greenginger]

Just heard Topping on BBC news saying a 16 team league would cost the clubs £1million a year in income. Where does that figure come from ?

Drastically reduced attendances will certainly reduce income but we are meant to blindly accept that their figures are sound.

[Saorsa]

I could say.... but I'm becoming too predictable.anything tae do with

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/bigtache.gif

[Big-Si-1875]

This is about the only time id support Hearts at anything, along with the other 3 good on them. Maybe the Hibs fans should come up with a banner like that the sheep fans had at ER recently, that way the tache will know hes onto a loser with the fans if he backs the pishy 10 team spl. All very well having 4 visits from the bigot bros a season and having them fill their end but when u see 3 sides of the ground half empty then it will really comes home to roost what a big mistake it is. Rod think about the football for once an not the ££££££.

[PaulSmith]

I could say.... but I'm becoming too predictable.

Smurf, were you not at the AGM where Rod took great pleasure in ridiculing someone who suggested that he was 'not a football man'?
Of course Hibs have backed this, I even get the impression that they are one of the prime movers

[Littlest Hobo]

What right does the chairman of our club have to make such decisions without consultation with the supporters???

****in shear arrogance from Petrie if you ask me, especially because I don't think I've spoke to one supporter who supports a ten team league:bitchy:

[ancient hibee]

Sky can **** off. They are part of the problem imo

Without wishing to appear rude I would have to say that your post illustrates why the clubs don't bother to consult the fans.

I can't understand why supporters would rather pay to watch us playing Raith Rovers than the OF or Hearts.

[down-the-slope]

:cool2: thanks.

Wonder why Hearts are not keen - thought they were chasing the cash :rolleyes:...but good for them and shame on us.

I also thinks its shocking treatment for Raith / Dunfermline etc who have worked and structured to make the step back up and this must be a right kick in the jewels...as they would have little chance if this madness ere to be pushed through.

Neil Doncaster being interviewed at least admitted that he knew fans were not keen and they wanted 16.....but that financially it could not happen...

YES it could were it not for OF wanting over paid huddies to play in CL...

We could reduce out wage bill and it would have little effect on quality...over time it would improve as youngsters got more prominence and players who wanted to play more than be concerned about the cash they are paid would be brought in

[Hibbyradge]

Remember that Hearts and Killie have their own agenda.

They want a league where there are play offs for the SPL championship.

I doubt if they would support a 16 or 18 team league.

[Lofarl]

Balls to all this its gonna cost us 1 mil a year. Well why not impliment it for the 2013-2014 season. I think 2-3 years is enough time to cut ones cloth.

[7Hero]

the day our club does anything in the interest of winning trophies / being more competitive as opposed to trying to balance the balance sheet will be the day Farmer is no longer owner. We ceased trying to compete a long time ago

[hibsbollah]

I've just been listening to Neil Doncaster basically saying 'there is no alternative' on a loop for an hour on Radio Scotland, and he was banging the airwaves yesterday as well.

He obviously knows perfectly well that the Sportsound presenters will give him an easy ride and not ask the difficult questions, which is why hes spending so much time trying to tell us a 16 team 'would never work'. I think he's running on the assumption that if you repeat something often enough, people will eventually believe its fact.

If that man has the interest of Scottish football at heart, i'm Amadou Konte.

[greenlex]

Rod wants money not a club:agree: Fans really have nothing to do with what happens at the clubs contrary to what we all would like to think. Bottom line is the SPL chairmen voting for this are in it for the money and not the club and certainly not their supporters.
What a lot of nonsense. Petrie is looking after Hibs interests. He doesnt get the money Hibs do. Are they not the club? Does everyone who want a bigger league grasp that there will be less money in that league? Are we ready for LESS money being spent on and off the park? I dont want a ten team set up but I wonder if fans actually grasp the less money concept of a bigger set up.

[Hibbyradge]

Just heard Topping on BBC news saying a 16 team league would cost the clubs £1million a year in income. Where does that figure come from ?

Drastically reduced attendances will certainly reduce income but we are meant to blindly accept that their figures are sound.

I don't accept those figures as sound. I think £1m is conservative figure, tbh.

30 games instead of 38 equates to a reduction of over 20% in income.

How are we going to make that up?

Given the enthusiasm we've seen for Saturday's game, I do hope the suggestion isn't to establish another cup competition.

[Removed]

Without wishing to appear rude I would have to say that your post illustrates why the clubs don't bother to consult the fans.

I can't understand why supporters would rather pay to watch us playing Raith Rovers than the OF or Hearts.

You can be as rude as you want, I don't mind. I got sky from the beginning when I lived in the south of England and that was pre internet and the only way I could see a game without a 900 mile round drive. I got up to ER as much as I could but the big problem then was they couldn't broadcast a match from Scotland if any other game was taking place in the UK that night. Now what do we have, wall to wall football, so much so you could probably watch a game every night and 3 or 4 at the weekend.

I am sick of the so called football fans at my work who pay sky and sit on their backsides in front of the tv then slag me for poor crowds at ER. And that's after folk like me who attend games get shat on time after time with changes to ko times to suit folk who haven't set foot in a football stadium for years.

We may as well let sky run the game and shut down all the grounds cos soon there will be nobody going.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't accept those figures as sound. I think £1m is conservative figure, tbh.

30 games instead of 38 equates to a reduction of over 20% in income.

How are we going to make that up?

Given the enthusiasm we've seen for Saturday's game, I do hope the suggestion isn't to establish another cup competition.

A return to the old-style League Cup? That would be 6 definite games, as opposed to the one at present.

[hibsbollah]

Does everyone who want a bigger league grasp that there will be less money in that league? Are we ready for LESS money being spent on and off the park? I dont want a ten team set up but I wonder if fans actually grasp the less money concept of a bigger set up.

I grasp the argument, I just don't automatically agree with it. Just because Doncaster says we'll be £1million worse off doesnt make it true. Its his narrative because its in his interests to sell it.

It would only take a fall of 3000 in our average attendance to cost Hibs £1.8 million a season in lost revenue. This scenario is very possible given the widespread scepticism in going back to a 10 team league.

[greenlex]

I grasp the argument, I just don't automatically agree with it. Just because Doncaster says we'll be £1million worse off doesnt make it true. Its his narrative because its in his interests to sell it.

It would only take a fall of 3000 in our average attendance to cost Hibs £1.8 million a season in lost revenue. This scenario is very possible given the widespread scepticism in going back to a 10 team league.

One visit from Rangers Celtic and Hearts instead of two will hit us at the gate.
Any TV money will be split between more teams and that is assuming the TV companies put the same money in.
Are you suggesting we will be better of financially or even unchanged with a bigger league? :confused:

[bingo70]

I don't accept those figures as sound. I think £1m is conservative figure, tbh.

30 games instead of 38 equates to a reduction of over 20% in income.

How are we going to make that up?

Given the enthusiasm we've seen for Saturday's game, I do hope the suggestion isn't to establish another cup competition.

Plus lack of sponsorship and TV money so i think it would have been way more than £1m.

I think the logic is though that if there was less money in the game then more youth players would be given a chance, i don't buy that, i just think clubs would go under.

[CropleyWasGod]

One visit from Rangers Celtic and Hearts instead of two will hit us at the gate.
Any TV money will be split between more teams and that is assuming the TV companies put the same money in.
Are you suggesting we will be better of financially or even unchanged with a bigger league? :confused:

Which is where my argument about the old-style LC comes in. IIRC, it was seeded so that like played like. The top teams were grouped together, so that there was a fair chance Hibs would be playing one or two of the teams you mention.

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=Sunny1875;2679684]How if a 16 team league is not sustainable can the Norwegian Tippelegaen survive ?.

Any idea how the fixtures are played ?

Is it just home and away ie. 30 games or do they have a split or play-offs or anything ?

[Hibbyradge]

A return to the old-style League Cup? That would be 6 definite games, as opposed to the one at present.

That was stopped for good reason. It was woeful and I think it would be worse now.

Even if it was possible to somehow seed the draw with a top league of 16, I don't see how the prospect of playing Cowdenbeath, East Fife and East Stirling a couple of times a year is going to excite many SPL fans. :dunno:

[bingo70]

One visit from Rangers Celtic and Hearts instead of two will hit us at the gate.
Any TV money will be split between more teams and that is assuming the TV companies put the same money in.
Are you suggesting we will be better of financially or even unchanged with a bigger league? :confused:

Why would they? the only games that draw in attendance figures for them are old firm games so there'd be 2 less of them a season for a start, then they'd have to replace one of there games against hibs/hearts/aberdeen with games against Dunfermline/Partick/queen of the south.

No way would they put in the same amount of money in for that, they'd put in a huge amount less, in fact they probably wouldn't even bother.

[Hibbyradge]

Which is where my argument about the old-style LC comes in. IIRC, it was seeded so that like played like. The top teams were grouped together, so that there was a fair chance Hibs would be playing one or two of the teams you mention.

I thought it was seeded to keep the top teams apart?

[CropleyWasGod]

That was stopped for good reason. It was woeful and I think it would be worse now.

Even if it was possible to somehow seed the draw with a top league of 16, I don't see how the prospect of playing Cowdenbeath, East Fife and East Stirling a couple of times a year is going to excite many SPL fans. :dunno:

It would make up the number of games, though, which is part of your argument

[Bostonhibby]

Hearts are the 4th team.

:agree: one eye on the European super league

[Jim44]

Is this not a complete waste of time, energy and money? The 10 team league has been scuppered by the four dissenters before it's begun. If they want a ten team league , the eight clubs who want it will have to break away from the Premier League, expel the dissenters and invite four first division clubs to join them. :rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought it was seeded to keep the top teams apart?

Maybe I'm showing my age :greengrin In the 60's, and I think the 70's, the top teams were grouped together.

[Hibbyradge]

It would make up the number of games, though, which is part of your argument

My point was that with only 30 games a season, a 16 team league would mean that revenues would be drastically reduced. Only 15 home games instead of 19.

And,the fact that we'd only have 3 games against Hearts, Celtic and Rangers instead of 6 (in the top 6 years) would mean income would be hit even harder.

A few utterly meaningless games in a discredited and ridiculed cup competition won't make any dent in that reduction.

Frankly, the fans won't buy that format anyway.

[Billy Whizz]

Is this not a complete waste of time, energy and money? The 10 team league has been scuppered by the four dissenters before it's begun. If they want a ten team league , the eight clubs who want it will have to break away from the Premier League, expel the dissenters and invite four first division clubs to join them. :rolleyes:

And put that attention seeking chairman, Stephen Thompson back in his place. His Dad would have played this so differently!!!

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe I'm showing my age :greengrin In the 60's, and I think the 70's, the top teams were grouped together.

Gotcha. Despite my age, I don't remember that.

From Wiki...

The tournament consisted of 8 or 9 groups consisting of 4 or 5 teams. (Can you imagine that!! :greengrin )

The groups were seeded into 2 sets with the top 16 teams in Division 1 making up the first four Groups.

This guaranteed that 4 'top' teams would play 4 'lesser' teams in the quarter-finals.

I can't imagine too many sponsors would want to pitch in for that format nowadays.

Plus, I thought we wanted away from playing the same teams 4 times a season! This format would give us exactly that.

[new malkyhib]

I'd much rather our untouchable CEO was concentrating on more immediate matters closer to home, to be honest, and trying to get some decent players in the door to stave off relegation from this current league we're in;, rather than some rehashed two-tier set-up to suit the Old Firm.

Nero's fiddling while Rome burns, methinks

[Lago]

I don't accept those figures as sound. I think £1m is conservative figure, tbh.

30 games instead of 38 equates to a reduction of over 20% in income.

How are we going to make that up?

Given the enthusiasm we've seen for Saturday's game, I do hope the suggestion isn't to establish another cup competition.

Your right, income will fall drastically. What we will see is a throw back to yester year with meaningless games after new year leading to falling attendance which will result in less TV interest all of which will = falling income. Result we will go back to a time when Scottish football was primarily part time, with even the so called big clubs having a proportion of part timers in there ranks.

[malcolm]

Sky are driving this 10 team nonsense as 4 OF games means big $$$

At least 4 OF(al) games is already in effect built in, so Sky are not pushing for this to ensure 4 of these gaes and they certainly are not looking for more Hamilton v ICT games either.

The split is rubbish and playing the same 9 teams 4 times a season is boring. I can't recall if I was bored with the league cup sections but anything that adds to the variety of who we play is at least superficially attractive.

The problem with the scottish games is the home team keeping 100% of the gate reinforcing the stranglehold of the 2 'built on bigotry' teams. Add in the bosman changes and the competitive nature of the game as a whole whether in a big league, a small league or a league cup section, has been further eroded.

All that is happening now is that that the bigot brothers want less games to do well in europe and some middle sized clubs want to ensure that the ganes in the last part of the season will have bigger gates.

The 11-1 voting rule means that we will never get the home gate problem sorted everything ever since has been p*shing against the wind.

[CropleyWasGod]

Gotcha. Despite my age, I don't remember that.

From Wiki...

The tournament consisted of 8 or 9 groups consisting of 4 or 5 teams. (Can you imagine that!! :greengrin )

The groups were seeded into 2 sets with the top 16 teams in Division 1 making up the first four Groups.

This guaranteed that 4 'top' teams would play 4 'lesser' teams in the quarter-finals.

I can't imagine too many sponsors would want to pitch in for that format nowadays.

Plus, I thought we wanted away from playing the same teams 4 times a season! This format would give us exactly that.

TBH, I am on your side in terms of the economics of it all, but like most fans CBA with the thought of the 10 team SPL. I suppose I am trying to find a middle ground whereby we get the bigger league, but there is less of a hit financially.

As I remember it, the LC that I describe was quite a decent start to the season. It was played Saturday and Wednesday for the first few weeks, before the League itself started. Being August, the pitches were good and the crowds not bad either. In addition, it was all over by October, which actually gave lesser teams the chance to hit a run of early-season form and go far in the competition.

Oh, and then there was the Drybrough Cup.... :greengrin

[Sprouleflyer]

Gotcha. Despite my age, I don't remember that.

From Wiki...

The tournament consisted of 8 or 9 groups consisting of 4 or 5 teams. (Can you imagine that!! :greengrin )

The groups were seeded into 2 sets with the top 16 teams in Division 1 making up the first four Groups.

This guaranteed that 4 'top' teams would play 4 'lesser' teams in the quarter-finals.

I can't imagine too many sponsors would want to pitch in for that format nowadays.

Plus, I thought we wanted away from playing the same teams 4 times a season! This format would give us exactly that.

You don't need to have the groups at the start of the competition, the groups could be made up of the last 16 in 4 groups. Chances are most of the SPL would be in the group stages with home and away ties giving the 16 teams a further 6 games with the winners of the groups going onto the semi's?

This competion could be played at the start of the season, kicking off in July allowing some games to be played on a Saturday with the SPL starting a bit later with the final to be scheduled in September/October...it could give a more exciting start to the season?????

[JCHibby]

One visit from Rangers Celtic and Hearts instead of two will hit us at the gate.
Any TV money will be split between more teams and that is assuming the TV companies put the same money in.
Are you suggesting we will be better of financially or even unchanged with a bigger league? :confused:

A bigger league will give Hibs, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hearts etc more of a chance against the OF and maybe just bring a bit of competition back to this league. Fans will be quick enough to walk from this ten team league setup which is happening anyway under the current setup due to poor quality and frankly being boring.

16 teams would at least give teams a chance to blood in young players develop SCOTTISH players which in turn would hopefully be beneficial to the national team then impact our teams in Europe.

Teams such as Falkirk, Raith, Dunfermline, Dundee could quite easily slot into the SPL and probably give a few teams a bit of a fright and surprise a few people also.

You look at Rangers as on Sunday the young lad Ness got a chance and looked a great player IMO, Celtic also had a young player in who looked pretty good. So instead of spending a fortune on journey men who dinnae give a toss and take a huge amount of cash manage your finances and work the youth into the first team, long hard slog however scottish football as a whole would benefit.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This will be yet another nail in the coffin for Scottish football, I shudder to think where it will be in 20 years time.

[zlatan]

What I want from Hibs, and the other teams backing this, is an explanation to their fans as to why we should go for it other than 'it's good financially'. It's clear we're nearly all against it so why not even attempt to sway us? Because apart from the poppy they have no other interests.

Some ex-SPL mofo was on Sportsound tonight and he at least had the decency to admit it's all proposed to bend over backwards for the old firm again. He said the reason we went to 10 was because Celtic won 9 in a row with no competition, yet didn't mention the huns doing likewise when it was 10 teams. He was then asked why it shouldn't be 16 teams to which he replied that the league can't afford to go from 4 OF games to 2 for TV contract reasons. Jim Spences reply was excellently, 'and?' Why does it ****ing matter if they lose 2 games?

The whole thing's going to go in circles until it stalemates and stays at 12 with a play off for relegation introduced imo.

[cad]

What right does the chairman of our club have to make such decisions without consultation with the supporters???

****in shear arrogance from Petrie if you ask me, especially because I don't think I've spoke to one supporter who supports a ten team league:bitchy:


Wouldnae mind a say in what Im watching likes ,any chance Rod could get the votin slips out or dont WE count

[hibsbollah]

One visit from Rangers Celtic and Hearts instead of two will hit us at the gate.
Any TV money will be split between more teams and that is assuming the TV companies put the same money in.
Are you suggesting we will be better of financially or even unchanged with a bigger league? :confused:

No im suggesting that its impossible to tell what the financial impact will be, and that Doncaster is just flying a kite.

In a small league like ours, with limited TV revenue, shirt deals or other advertising, by far the biggest income is through attendance. As ive shown, even a small downturn in the average attendance will effect us worse thanhaving less total games over a season, even if those games are with Hearts Rangers or Celtc.

It also discounts the strong possibility that our average attendances would actually increase with the added interest a 16 team league would bring and we might actually sell out for the Hearts or Old Firm games if there were only 2 instead of the current ridiculous 4 games a season. There are a lot of imponderables.

[greenlex]

A bigger league will give Hibs, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, Hearts etc more of a chance against the OF and maybe just bring a bit of competition back to this league. Fans will be quick enough to walk from this ten team league setup which is happening anyway under the current setup due to poor quality and frankly being boring.

16 teams would at least give teams a chance to blood in young players develop SCOTTISH players which in turn would hopefully be beneficial to the national team then impact our teams in Europe.

Teams such as Falkirk, Raith, Dunfermline, Dundee could quite easily slot into the SPL and probably give a few teams a bit of a fright and surprise a few people also.

You look at Rangers as on Sunday the young lad Ness got a chance and looked a great player IMO, Celtic also had a young player in who looked pretty good. So instead of spending a fortune on journey men who dinnae give a toss and take a huge amount of cash manage your finances and work the youth into the first team, long hard slog however scottish football as a whole would benefit.
No arguement here. However Rangers and Celtic are so far ahead in terms of infrastructure and fanbase than the rest that we will be behind them both for the forseeable however. Bring it on I say but quality will suffer even more short to medium term. We should all be prepared for that.

[JCHibby]

No arguement here. However Rangers and Celtic are so far ahead in terms of infrastructure and fanbase than the rest that we will be behind them both for the forseeable however. Bring it on I say but quality will suffer even more short to medium term. We should all be prepared for that.

Spot on, its as if a wake up call is required for Scottish Football as a whole to realise this. Would have though maybe the SFA/SPL/SFL might have noticed that by our brutal record as a national team:cool2:

[greenlex]

No im suggesting that its impossible to tell what the financial impact will be, and that Doncaster is just flying a kite.

In a small league like ours, with limited TV revenue, shirt deals or other advertising, by far the biggest income is through attendance. As ive shown, even a small downturn in the average attendance will effect us worse thanhaving less total games over a season, even if those games are with Hearts Rangers or Celtc.

It also discounts the strong possibility that our average attendances would actually increase with the added interest a 16 team league would bring and we might actually sell out for the Hearts or Old Firm games if there were only 2 instead of the current ridiculous 4 games a season. There are a lot of imponderables.
How would 15 games a season help increase the average attendance when we would be cut 3 or 4 of our biggest attendances? I cant see how you can claim a strong possibility. As you say attendances are our biggest income and we want to actually reduce this?

[The_Todd]

Is this not a complete waste of time, energy and money? The 10 team league has been scuppered by the four dissenters before it's begun. If they want a ten team league , the eight clubs who want it will have to break away from the Premier League, expel the dissenters and invite four first division clubs to join them. :rolleyes:

Slightly flawed maths there for the formation of a 10 team league :wink:

[IWasThere2016]

Didnt/dont UEFA have a view on this topic?

[down the slope]

How can Rod and the others who are for the ten team league justify their stance ?, we , the fans are the lifeblood of our teams whether you go every week or buy a tv subscription. If the league was bigger maybe more fans would come back rather than watching the same teams a minimum of four time a season and the rest. I for one would gladly take the risk that we would have a smaller income which might promote the younger players getting a chance in the first team as you sure as hell will not see any in a ten team setup , if money is so tight then the board can lead the way by taking a smaller cut of our yearly finances which i believe in percentage terms is the biggest in the SPL !. Over to you Rod for a reply but as usual the silence will be deafening.

[sahib]

How would 15 games a season help increase the average attendance when we would be cut 3 or 4 of our biggest attendances? I cant see how you can claim a strong possibility. As you say attendances are our biggest income and we want to actually reduce this?

People forget that there were plenty of poorly attended, meaningless games in the old league of 16. Still, I remember the giddy excitement of only getting one chance a season to see Partick Thistle, Clyde or Arbroath. Aye the whole toon would be fair buzzin all week at the prospect.
Sarcasm aside it probably was a bit more interesting, but only a bit. I think people, as usual, are overstating the case.

[STRAIGHT 2 HELL]

signed

[greenlex]

How can Rod and the others who are for the ten team league justify their stance ?, we , the fans are the lifeblood of our teams whether you go every week or buy a tv subscription. If the league was bigger maybe more fans would come back rather than watching the same teams a minimum of four time a season and the rest. I for one would gladly take the risk that we would have a smaller income which might promote the younger players getting a chance in the first team as you sure as hell will not see any in a ten team setup , if money is so tight then the board can lead the way by taking a smaller cut of our yearly finances which i believe in percentage terms is the biggest in the SPL !. Over to you Rod for a reply but as usual the silence will be deafening.
WE need to increase attendance at ER not reduce it. Money thats the simple facts of the matter.
It wouldnt matter how many teams are in the league if Hibs were doing well the fans would come. It wouldnt matter if we were playing the same teams as present or not. If we were up there the fans would turn up.
Can I ask you if you would pay more to keep the clubs finances sound in a bigger league to compensate for the reduction in number of fans through the gate as our games go from 18/19 home games to 15? 20% drop in games translated to more than that in income. Say £30-35 a game even dropping salaries across the board.

[bingo70]

How can Rod and the others who are for the ten team league justify their stance ?, we , the fans are the lifeblood of our teams whether you go every week or buy a tv subscription. If the league was bigger maybe more fans would come back rather than watching the same teams a minimum of four time a season and the rest. I for one would gladly take the risk that we would have a smaller income which might promote the younger players getting a chance in the first team as you sure as hell will not see any in a ten team setup , if money is so tight then the board can lead the way by taking a smaller cut of our yearly finances which i believe in percentage terms is the biggest in the SPL !. Over to you Rod for a reply but as usual the silence will be deafening.

More fans wouldn't come back though, simply because we'd be playing less games and the games we did play would be against smaller opposition, there'd be poorer quality on show and we'd have to pay more money for the privelage.

These guys aren't doing it to piss us off, they probably won't benefit financially from it, it's because there isn't any realistic alternative.

The St Mirren chairman said recently if we were to go to a 16 or 18 team league there top earner would be on around £400 p/week, do you really think that'd improve the standard and bring the crowds back in there droves?

This idea of a bigger league is a nice idea, i'm bored of playing the same teams all the time too, however it's just simply not possible.

Petrie and co taking a pay cut wouldn't make one jot of a difference considering the sort of money we'd stand to lose if we were to move to a 16/18 team league

[Biggie]

The balls burst with scottish football...it doesn't matter how we butter it up, the old firm will win the league (so 10,12,16, whatever numbers, xx team leagues not going to change the fact there is no real competition in our league)....we've tried 10 teams....rubbish, we've tried 12...boring......we need radical thinking, visionary thinking....dont know what the solution is, but the depth is simply not there in Scotland, the product is not attractive enough anymore.

Could now be the time to look at a British league ?.....I wouldn't mind hibs working their way up....even regionalised leagues (say north east) I really don't know, but we need something different....and yet attractive enough to get TV money flowing.

[jdships]

I have spoken with "old pro" pals of mine about this over the past week or so and they virtually all came up with the same thought
Go to a ten team league with two down you increase the pressure on the manager big time
From that situation comes another - no manager is going to have the balls to "blood" youngsters , except for ten minutes here or there , for fear of losing .
The chances of another Jimmy O'Rourke getting his chance at 16 would be nil.:rolleyes:

The powers that be also musn't lose sight of the fact that football is a part of the entertainment industry .
Regardless if it be films , music et al If punters don't get what they enjoy they vote with their feet and the "stars" are soon has beens .
Obviously there will always will be a hard core of supporters who would support "their team" if they were playing non league
The vast majority of supporters are not stupid , work hard for their money and overall hate being "conned "
Is it then asking too much to expect to be given a chance for us punters to be given the chance to formally make an input to this - be it nationally or at club level ?

Scottish football is in a mess - whose fault is that ?
"Answers on a postrcard please " to ..... ?-
Is there anyone in this manky mob capable of sorting things ?

[Sir David Gray]

Just heard Topping on BBC news saying a 16 team league would cost the clubs £1million a year in income. Where does that figure come from ?

Drastically reduced attendances will certainly reduce income but we are meant to blindly accept that their figures are sound.

Taking Hibs as the example;

At present the breakdown for home games is as follows;

Category A-6 (If we get into the top six)
Category B-13

If we went to a 16 team league, the breakdown of home games would be;

Category A-3
Category B-12

Just say for argument's sake that around 15,000 people pay £27 for the adult price of a ticket to watch a category A match at Easter Road. If there are 6 category A matches, like we have at the moment, this would generate well over £2 million for Hibs.

If 10,000 people pay £22 for the adult price of a ticket to watch a category B match at Easter Road and there are 13 category B matches, that would generate almost £3 million for Hibs.

Therefore, losing 3 category A matches and 1 category B match would cost the club well in excess of £1 million per season in gate receipts.

[bingo70]

Taking Hibs as the example;

At present the breakdown for home games is as follows;

Category A-6 (If we get into the top six)
Category B-13

If we went to a 16 team league, the breakdown of home games would be;

Category A-3
Category B-12

Just say for argument's sake that around 15,000 people pay £27 for the adult price of a ticket to watch a category A match at Easter Road. If there are 6 category A matches, like we have at the moment, this would generate well over £2 million for Hibs.

If 10,000 people pay £22 for the adult price of a ticket to watch a category B match at Easter Road and there are 13 category B matches, that would generate almost £3 million for Hibs.

Therefore, losing 3 category A matches and 1 category B match would cost the club well in excess of £1 million per season in gate receipts.

So the £1m drop is only in ticket revenue and not including the loss of TV deals and sponsorship that'd come from there being less big games?

[DH1875]

What I don't get is what 3 teams are going to vote to be relegated. They still going to have to have a promotion next season so 3 teams will go down. Not saying we will be safe next season but thank duck it's not this year or we would def be going down.
They will never get 11 of the 12 to agree to it.

[Billy Whizz]

Can we all agree
1) the status quo isn't an option. Everyone I speak too hates the 12 team league with the current split. It makes us a laughing stock when the 7th and 8th placed teams have more points than the 5th/6th placed team.
We only have around 7/8 teams that bring any such support to ER.
2) A 16 team league, although great in theory only gives s 30 League games per season. Do we add a split to add more games? I like the idea of a 16 team league. Team's like Falkirk, Dunfermline, Raith Rovers and possibly even Livingston are on our door step and would be able attend games without too much hassle or cost.
However from Hibs perspective you can see why Hbs are against it
a) reduced games =reduced revenue
b) reduced money from TV due to less games against Hearts/Rangers/Celtic
c) however there may be increased interest as we only play each other twice. However will this give an increase in revenue that offsets what we lose with reduced games.

Whether we like it or not, Sky etc call the shots and if we don't work with them we are as well shutting the door!


If anyone has any bright ideas to improve the situation please contact Neil Doncaster.
PS who would be in his shoes at the moment

[Kaiser1962]

Didnt/dont UEFA have a view on this topic?

Not really as long as its recognised by the national association. It only becomes an issue if the main division (for euro qualification purposes) has less than 30 games. Hence, if your only wanting to play each other twice, the minimum number of teams being 16.

[Beefster]

Aye I'll crack the gags, we have a chairman that couldn't give a flying what the fans want, all about the finances.

Sky are driving this 10 team nonsense as 4 OF games means big $$$

Sky already get 4 OF games a season in the current set-up.

[hibeedonald]

do group stages in the scottish cup to make up the number of games? 16 team league it has to be.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

anything tae do with

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/bigtache.gif



:top marks

[Beefster]

Am I right in thinking that folk want a 16 team league to stop us having to play the same teams over and over again but then are suggesting a group stage in the cup so that we can play against the teams that we just changed the league to avoid playing so often?

[Billy Whizz]

:aok:
Am I right in thinking that folk want a 16 team league to stop us having to play the same teams over and over again but then are suggesting a group stage in the cup so that we can play against the teams that we just changed the league to avoid playing so often?
:top marks

[Hibbyradge]

Am I right in thinking that folk want a 16 team league to stop us having to play the same teams over and over again but then are suggesting a group stage in the cup so that we can play against the teams that we just changed the league to avoid playing so often?


:aok:
:top marks

Ahem! Final line. :greengrin (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?200940-Who-are-the-Four-Teams&p=2679775&viewfull=1#post2679775)

[Beefster]

Ahem! Final line. :greengrin (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?200940-Who-are-the-Four-Teams&p=2679775&viewfull=1#post2679775)

Apologies, I missed that! Great minds....

[WindyMiller]

The balls burst with scottish football...it doesn't matter how we butter it up, the old firm will win the league (so 10,12,16, whatever numbers, xx team leagues not going to change the fact there is no real competition in our league)....we've tried 10 teams....rubbish, we've tried 12...boring......we need radical thinking, visionary thinking....dont know what the solution is, but the depth is simply not there in Scotland, the product is not attractive enough anymore.

Could now be the time to look at a British league ?.....I wouldn't mind hibs working their way up....even regionalised leagues (say north east) I really don't know, but we need something different....and yet attractive enough to get TV money flowing.

Personally I'd prefer that to what's on offer atm.

[hibsbollah]

WE need to increase attendance at ER not reduce it. Money thats the simple facts of the matter.
It wouldnt matter how many teams are in the league if Hibs were doing well the fans would come. It wouldnt matter if we were playing the same teams as present or not. If we were up there the fans would turn up.
Can I ask you if you would pay more to keep the clubs finances sound in a bigger league to compensate for the reduction in number of fans through the gate as our games go from 18/19 home games to 15? 20% drop in games translated to more than that in income. Say £30-35 a game even dropping salaries across the board.

You're missing the point. We're constantly being told that money is the be all and end all, as you say yourself in your first paragraph. But the first rule of capitalism is; give the consumer the product that they want to buy. 85% or so of the watching public don't want a 10 team league. If you go ahead with a 10 team league, watch the viewing public voting with their feet. Less interest=Less people through the turnstiles. Its that simple.

But its not about capitalism, its about monopoly. The 10 team league protects two clubs, and supporting it is just supporting the same old sordid monopoly thats been going for so many years.

[GreenCastle]

The problems of the current set up - in no order...

Rangers and Celtic (1984 since a team outwith the Old Firm won the league...this isn't healthy.)

Playing the same teams 3, 4 or even 5 or 6 times in a season

We have a poor national team - who don't seem close to qualifying for a national tournament.

SPL vs SFL

The 11-1 vote

Our refs are crap

Price to watch games - isn't value for money - too many average players stealing a wage

Stadiums - atmosphere - it's lacking - all seater stadium

SFA are still very Glasgow Biased

Our appeal system is a joke for players getting cards

Winter football - we can't cope = fixture pile up

Television coverage - highlights programme is Mickey Mouse

Lack of youth development structure

Structure of leagues below SPL 3rd division (no promotion)

Dying cup competitions - lack of interest

Average crowds going down

Now what needs improved is pretty much the opposite of all the above - and several are linked in to each other. Fix one and the rest will improve.

BUT now is a good time for the Scottish game to make change before it's too late - otherwise it will be hard to fix even more damage.

[Ritchie]

:top marksto Killie, United & Inverness! (and even maybe the yams! :jamboak:)

just wish our chairman put the interests of the fans first a change!

NO TO 10 TEAM SPL!! :flag:

[down the slope]

:top marksto Killie, United & Inverness! (and even maybe the yams! :jamboak:)

just wish our chairman put the interests of the fans first a change!

NO TO 10 TEAM SPL!! :flag:

To all on here that want a ten team league read this from the ICT chairman in the hootsman this morning,

"Caley Thistle are first and foremost a community club. Our fans are our lifeblood and it is clear that all surveys of supporters show that a ten-team SPL is the least popular option. It does not appear that their views have gained precedence.

"There's a lot of discussion required before the crucial SPL meeting on 17 January and we will be in dialogue with all concerned in the meantime."

Which is more than can be said for our leader.

[Green_one]

The whole idea now looks dead in the water.

Topping and Doncaster should resign. TOTAL failures.

How did we go from a '12 to 18' debate to a 'we will have 10'? Because these dafties did not listen.

Fighting over a corpse.

[down the slope]

I heard Doncaster on the Radio say that with the new ten team set up clubs will be able to bring in better quality players-now forgive me if i'm wrong here but was one of the main reasons for change the need to bring through new Scottish talent ?.
If you think this season is bad it will not be a patch on what you would get in the new league as there is a one in five chance of getting relegated every year, you will get the most ultra defensive league in Europe with teams determined not to lose from September onwards.

[flash]

There is a great deal of romanticism on this thread but little sense.

[brog]

Therefore, losing 3 category A matches and 1 category B match would cost the club well in excess of £1 million per season in gate receipts.[/QUOTE]

Topping etc of course are playing the doomsday scenario because they spent years & who knows how much dosh coming up with a crappy old plan that failed before. The above assumes a 16 team league, there's plenty different scenarios that could happen. Here's one.

A 14 team league splitting top 7/bottom 7 after 2 games each. ( 26 games )You then only need to make top 7 to keep 4 OF games. No Revenue lost!Surely we can achieve this!!
A further 2 games against your 6 opponents giving 38 games in all, same as present. No Revenue lost! This also gets rid of all the H/A imbalances in current split system.
Introduce relegation play offs. 72 English clubs play 46 league games a season so it's easily achievable. 7 teams trying to avoid relegation for 2 or even 3 teams would provide excitement. Also a great incentive to make top 7 & be safe!

I for one think adding any 2 from say Falkirk/Partick/Dundee/Raith/Dunfermline would increase the entertainment value in our turgid league.

[Andy74]

If we all lose a bit of income who cares? It will be a loss to each club and would be made up for in terms of competition and freedom to introduce young players.

[Part/Time Supporter]

If we all lose a bit of income who cares? It will be a loss to each club and would be made up for in terms of competition and freedom to introduce young players.

:agree:

The SPL (and Hibs) are putting the cart before the horse and are continuing on with the same failed model. They are trying to squeeze the maximum out of the (few remaining) fans and TV companies, with no regard to the quality of the product or production of young players for the national team.

It also angers me that there is no real discussion or debate here. A few "movers and shakers" have talked to a couple of TV executives and have then said "that's what you're getting, like it or lump it". Well, if they take that attitude, they shouldn't be surprised when a lot of people exercise their right to lump it.

[Ritchie]

If we all lose a bit of income who cares? It will be a loss to each club and would be made up for in terms of competition and freedom to introduce young players.

bang on andy. :agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

Am I right in thinking that folk want a 16 team league to stop us having to play the same teams over and over again but then are suggesting a group stage in the cup so that we can play against the teams that we just changed the league to avoid playing so often?

Thats not the case. The league cup section would probably have 4 teams, so instead of playing everyone 4 times, it would only be 2 of them. We have to play someone in the cup anyway, and if we were drawn in a section with Rangers and motherwell, we'd only play them 2 sides 4 times, we'd not play the rest of them 4 times.

[frazeHFC]

The plain and simple thing for me that i really do not want a 10 team league is i think it will make a boring league worse.

Aberdeen fans had the "no to 10 team league" banner, anyone think we should do anything. As a recent poll across Scotland stated that only 10% favoured a 10 team league.

[greenlex]

If we all lose a bit of income who cares? It will be a loss to each club and would be made up for in terms of competition and freedom to introduce young players.

The Old Firm would still be miles ahead. The competition would still be for best of the rest but only poorer quality short to medium term.

[millarco]

If we all lose a bit of income who cares? It will be a loss to each club and would be made up for in terms of competition and freedom to introduce young players.

We're already operating at a £2 million loss, how are we supposed to cope with a £1 million loss in revenue? And we're one of the more financially robust sides, a lot of clubs would be struggling to survive with a similar loss of income.

And what at the moment is preventing us from introducing young players?

[blackpoolhibs]

We're already operating at a £2 million loss, how are we supposed to cope with a £1 million loss in revenue? And we're one of the more financially robust sides, a lot of clubs would be struggling to survive with a similar loss of income.

And what at the moment is preventing us from introducing young players?

Fear of relegation?

[Ritchie]

The plain and simple thing for me that i really do not want a 10 team league is i think it will make a boring league worse.

Aberdeen fans had the "no to 10 team league" banner, anyone think we should do anything. As a recent poll across Scotland stated that only 10% favoured a 10 team league.


:singing: 10% Boring *******s :singing:

:clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper:

:singing: 10% Boring *******s :singing: