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View Full Version : And...here's where we are right now Mr Petrie et al!



MrSmith
03-01-2011, 03:58 PM
2nd Bottom staring relegation right in the puss! Maybe Killie will do us a wee turn but would rather rely on Hibs however, not going to happen!?

This is where your Stewardship is taking us Mr Petrie....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/default.stm

Phil D. Rolls
03-01-2011, 04:02 PM
2nd Bottom staring relegation right in the puss! Maybe Killie will do us a wee turn but would rather rely on Hibs however, not going to happen!?

This is where your Stewardship is taking us Mr Petrie....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/default.stm

Yes'm that Massa Petrie he sho gonna lead to no good, uh huh. (forelock tugging smiley here).

Sorry, but did Mr Petrie not sack the previous manager for taking us in this direction? If that's the case it seems a bit pointless telling him what he already knows, or is it just that you have finally grasped the situation yourself?

MrSmith
03-01-2011, 07:11 PM
aint no man talkin bout no manager he sir! <shoe cleaning smiley>

Simply reminding the man of his duties towards putting a team on the park! And, I noticed the issues long ago except this is the first time I have been vocal about it!

Is there a problem?

Woody1985
03-01-2011, 07:32 PM
Well done rod, you've moved us up a place since this was posted. Good work.:greengrin

ScottB
03-01-2011, 07:48 PM
Admins, can you merge all these dumbass threads together or just start deleting them?

SloopJB
03-01-2011, 08:08 PM
To be fair to Peter Etal, the situation with the weather has meant he hasn't really trained for 36 years so is a bit rusty, a few games under his belt and you'll see a difference.
Stewart Ship is only just out of the under 19's so his time will come.

The future is bright:aok:

Phil D. Rolls
03-01-2011, 08:45 PM
aint no man talkin bout no manager he sir! <shoe cleaning smiley>

Simply reminding the man of his duties towards putting a team on the park! And, I noticed the issues long ago except this is the first time I have been vocal about it!

Is there a problem?

It's just that everyone keeps coming on here stating the bleeding obvious. In Petrie's case he's already tried to fix the situation. I am not saying that he is blameless, just give things a bit of time.

Any more upheaval at the club will seal our fate. Hate to sound like a Tory, but at the moment we keep calm and carry on.

lapsedhibee
03-01-2011, 08:48 PM
Hate to sound like a Tory, but at the moment we keep calm and carry on.

:agree: There Is No Alternative.

Hakim Sar
03-01-2011, 08:50 PM
Big Rod Petrie should have had a part in 'the new wall street film with Michael douglas - he'd sell his granny

Big Petrie and

smurf
03-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Our problems stem back to the day Rod Petrie made the Hibs job an impossible one by inviting a large group of players down East Lothian behind the back of the manager who had just won us a trophy.

stokesmessiah
03-01-2011, 09:23 PM
It's just that everyone keeps coming on here stating the bleeding obvious. In Petrie's case he's already tried to fix the situation. I am not saying that he is blameless, just give things a bit of time.

Any more upheaval at the club will seal our fate. Hate to sound like a Tory, but at the moment we keep calm and carry on.

I really am confused by some peoples reactions.

Sack Lindsay, Sack Farmer, Sack Petrie & Sack Colin while we are at it?

I am pretty sure that Petrie moved to stop the rot by appointing CC in place of Yogi..You dont need to be a footballing genius to see that our squad has some glaring deficencies in it yet already people are posting on here saying that CC needs to go.

In my opinion its all the changes of management that are the biggest cause of the problem, each new manager bringing his own ideas and wanting his own squad and we have ended up with a disjointed team because thats exactly what they are!!!

We need to give Colin time to assess this squad entirely and make the changes he needs to. And before people say the obvious yes we are skirting with relegation but at least let him get a few bodies in over this next month and get us safe.

As for someone i saw posting on another thread saying that the selling of Bamba was scandalous and just another exapmle of the board asset stripping...bizarre.

I am pretty sure everyone knew Bamba wanted away, he has already tried to engineer it in the past. Getting 200k+ for a guy who lets face it can be hit or miss and has only half a season left of contract.....good work to me.

I have been posting on these boards for about a year now and reading probably a year longer.

The one thing i have noticed is in the good times people have a lot less to say in the bad times people are very quick to bump their gums.

stokesmessiah
03-01-2011, 09:24 PM
Our problems stem back to the day Rod Petrie made the Hibs job an impossible one by inviting a large group of players down East Lothian behind the back of the manager who had just won us a trophy.

Nonsense.

smurf
03-01-2011, 09:26 PM
Nonsense.

You must be right because its been one upward spiral since eh?

stokesmessiah
03-01-2011, 09:29 PM
You must be right because its been one upward spiral since eh?

Your being a tad sensationalist are you not??

MrSmith
03-01-2011, 09:49 PM
ScottB, I'll remind you that this is a forum where members voice their opinions. So cut the crap whining eh!

I'm not fr sacking CC at all! I simply want to see RP back this manager to point where he removes us from the danger of relegation!

Dirkster23
03-01-2011, 09:54 PM
ScottB, I'll remind you that this is a forum where members voice there opinions. So cut the crap whining eh!

I'm not fr sacking CC at all! I simply want to see RP back this manager to ppint where he removes us from the danger of relegation!

Maybe give him a chance to back his manager? We're 3 days into CC's first transfer window :rolleyes:

MrSmith
03-01-2011, 10:01 PM
Just reminding him, that's all!

IWasThere2016
03-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Just reminding him, that's all!

:agree: I'm thinking he's really ScottL :greengrin

sesoim
04-01-2011, 02:12 AM
It's just that everyone keeps coming on here stating the bleeding obvious. In Petrie's case he's already tried to fix the situation. I am not saying that he is blameless, just give things a bit of time.

Any more upheaval at the club will seal our fate. Hate to sound like a Tory, but at the moment we keep calm and carry on.


The problem is, Petrie had a chance to do the right thing after he sacked Hughes. I Instead, he goes and appoints Calderwood, who has not done anywhere near enough in his career to suggest he would be the best manager for Hibs. If Petrie has any common sense about him, I can't believe he would be impressed by his record, or by the way he talks.

I think we've got another Alex Miller, but at least Miller actually knew the SPL inside out when he arrived. It's highly frustrating to know that the club you love is being run buy imcompetents and will never achieve its potential becasue of this. But unless we get relegated, I reckon we will have to put up with bottom six and bad football for at least a couple of years. Petrie knows that if CC fails, he himself will be liable. Sacking him would be an admission that Petrie is incapable of fulfilling the most important task a football chairman has. If Petrie has to sack CC, Petrie will have to step down as well.

Heckys Wheel
04-01-2011, 03:27 AM
The problem is, Petrie had a chance to do the right thing after he sacked Hughes. I Instead, he goes and appoints Calderwood, who has not done anywhere near enough in his career to suggest he would be the best manager for Hibs. If Petrie has any common sense about him, I can't believe he would be impressed by his record, or by the way he talks.

I think we've got another Alex Miller, but at least Miller actually knew the SPL inside out when he arrived. It's highly frustrating to know that the club you love is being run buy imcompetents and will never achieve its potential becasue of this. But unless we get relegated, I reckon we will have to put up with bottom six and bad football for at least a couple of years. Petrie knows that if CC fails, he himself will be liable. Sacking him would be an admission that Petrie is incapable of fulfilling the most important task a football chairman has. If Petrie has to sack CC, Petrie will have to step down as well.

Out of all the *****e in this thread, this bit is my favourite. :aok:

zero-seven
04-01-2011, 06:23 AM
Not trying to re invent the wheel here

but look at where we are and our blind faith with the heirarchy at our club...i have been following this club since i was 5 years old..from 1965 onwards..why have we had no real success , consistant success ??? because we are a selling club and move on our best assets (more likely to the old infirm)..in other words we shoot ourselves in the foot, year in year out. So it is obvious to me that we exist to be successful and give our loyal fans a reason to back the team year in year out..so we can clearly see that THIS POLICY OF SELLING OUR BEST PLAYERS IS NOT WORKING..

Change or see the fan base dwindle...i know it will be difficult, but it has to stop or we will be going round the mid to bottom half of the table...mediocre pash , which is not what anyone wants to see.

it kills me seeing this club as a feeder for the ugly sisters. it has to change

Peevemor
04-01-2011, 06:57 AM
Not trying to re invent the wheel here

but look at where we are and our blind faith with the heirarchy at our club...i have been following this club since i was 5 years old..from 1965 onwards..why have we had no real success , consistant success ??? because we are a selling club and move on our best assets (more likely to the old infirm)..in other words we shoot ourselves in the foot, year in year out. So it is obvious to me that we exist to be successful and give our loyal fans a reason to back the team year in year out..so we can clearly see that THIS POLICY OF SELLING OUR BEST PLAYERS IS NOT WORKING.

How would you keep them then?

I reckon the policy is to try to keep ouir best players, but if they're being offered money elsewhere that we can't match, sell them before they can leave for free - ordinarily with a year of their contract remaining.

Heckys Wheel
04-01-2011, 08:59 AM
Not trying to re invent the wheel here

but look at where we are and our blind faith with the heirarchy at our club...i have been following this club since i was 5 years old..from 1965 onwards..why have we had no real success , consistant success ??? because we are a selling club and move on our best assets (more likely to the old infirm)..in other words we shoot ourselves in the foot, year in year out. So it is obvious to me that we exist to be successful and give our loyal fans a reason to back the team year in year out..so we can clearly see that THIS POLICY OF SELLING OUR BEST PLAYERS IS NOT WORKING..

Change or see the fan base dwindle...i know it will be difficult, but it has to stop or we will be going round the mid to bottom half of the table...mediocre pash , which is not what anyone wants to see.

it kills me seeing this club as a feeder for the ugly sisters. it has to change

There are only a handfull of clubs in the world that aren't selling clubs. Other than the big guns like Real Madrid and Man Utd, I can ony think of..... Gretna, Livingston, Dundee off the top of my head.

Ken what i'm saying? :wink:

I know everybody has ideas on how to run a club but can you give me an example of a club you'd like us to model ourselves on that have similar finances, fan base and infrstructure as us?

Tell you what, when Yogi had us flying at the beginning of last season, we'd bought guys like Stokes, Miller, Riordan and Bamba to replace the guys we'd developed from youth and sold on at a big price, we were the club others wanted to model themselves on.

Cropley10
04-01-2011, 09:32 AM
How would you keep them then?

I reckon the policy is to try to keep ouir best players, but if they're being offered money elsewhere that we can't match, sell them before they can leave for free - ordinarily with a year of their contract remaining.

It's not the keeping them - as you point out - we can't. It's that we sell a player and then wander off into the bargain basement, bin ends, bottom 6 teams, wherever to look for someone to replace them.

The last decent signing was Stokes, a season and 23 goals later, we sell him on the last day of the transfer window because he's a naughty boy.

But look back over every body we've sold and tell me who we've lined up to replace them? We haven't by and large - we just keep our fingers crossed that Joe Keenan will be the new Kevin Thomson. Crazy.

Mind you we have returned a profit in the each of the last 6 years.

Cropley10
04-01-2011, 09:38 AM
I know everybody has ideas on how to run a club but can you give me an example of a club you'd like us to model ourselves on that have similar finances, fan base and infrstructure as us?
.

Hearts? Very similar size fanbase. Haven't lost a Derby since whenever...23 points ahead. Being £30m in debt doesn't seem to bother any of them, sure they might go bust, but I'm not holding my breath.

Peevemor
04-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Hearts? Very similar size fanbase. Haven't lost a Derby since whenever...23 points ahead. Being £30m in debt doesn't seem to bother any of them, sure they might go bust, but I'm not holding my breath.

And if both STF and Vlad were to pop their clogs tomorrow, who still has a team next season?

smurf
04-01-2011, 09:59 AM
And if both STF and Vlad were to pop their clogs tomorrow, who still has a team next season?

This Hibby couldn't give a flying one about that lot but you raise a very good question and that's 'In years to come when Sir Tom is on the stairway to heaven what happens to Hibs?'

HibbyRod
04-01-2011, 11:12 AM
Hate to sound like a Tory, but at the moment we keep calm and carry on.

:agree: We're all in this together.

Keith_M
04-01-2011, 06:12 PM
:agree: We're all in this together.

:agree: Careless talk costs lives.

zero-seven
04-01-2011, 06:31 PM
as i said...i realise the contract side of things is a major hurdle for keeping our young talent, but we do sell for big bucks and get talentless journeymen as replacements..this does 2 things..p off the young talent we do have and the supporters.

we cant keep doing this, as you can see we are paying for this right now and i personnaly cant see where our next consistent run of form will come from to ensure safety..we dont have the players to do it.

ScottB
04-01-2011, 07:01 PM
ScottB, I'll remind you that this is a forum where members voice their opinions. So cut the crap whining eh!

I'm not fr sacking CC at all! I simply want to see RP back this manager to point where he removes us from the danger of relegation!

Yes, but we don't need 4 or 5 threads all on the same whining subject; Sack Farmer, Sack Petrie, Sack Lindsey, Sack Tam McCourt, blah blah blah

For all the moaning about the Board, about selling players, about not spending on enough on players, a few points:

1. Who replaces the Board members who are binned by us all knowing fans?

2. How do you keep players at the club who want away, knowing they can get 5 times their salary down South? In the case of Bamba, surely £200k for a guy who would have left for f all in the summer is good business?

3. How many clubs in Scotland have spent more on players and wages in the last few years than us? I think the answer is 3.

4. So more money spent equals better players does it? Tell that to Alan O'Brien.

PaulSmith
04-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Yes, but we don't need 4 or 5 threads all on the same whining subject; Sack Farmer, Sack Petrie, Sack Lindsey, Sack Tam McCourt, blah blah blah

And there are several that say keep Petrie, keep Farmer, keep Lindsay and keep doing the same and we'll be OK.

Brizo
04-01-2011, 07:11 PM
Selling off top players and replacing them with poorer quality ....its the Hibs way,

Reading Lawrie Reillys book he talks about arguably Hibs greatest Chairman Harry Swan, Lawrie wonders what happened to all the money which came in during the days of the 40,000 plus crowds as it wasnt invested in expensive signings. He makes the point that investment in a couple of defenders could have prolonged the Famous 5 era and that at the end of the 50's a crop of promising youngsters most notably Joe Baker were sold.

We have been a selling club throughout our history and in that regard Rod Petrie / STF are upholding that tradition.

My view of STF / Rod is that they are more interested in leaving an infrastructure legacy than a footballing success legacy. Having said that id much rather have STF in charge than a Vlad type figure or any of the characters whove come into English clubs , promised success and delivered receivership. I dont see anyone lining up in the wings to replace STF and if I did id be more suspicious than pleased. Calum Melville at Dundee was just the latest in a long line of owners who promised big signings and delivered financial disaster.

ScottB
04-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Selling off top players and replacing them with poorer quality ....its the Hibs way,

Reading Lawrie Reillys book he talks about arguably Hibs greatest Chairman Harry Swan, Lawrie wonders what happened to all the money which came in during the days of the 40,000 plus crowds as it wasnt invested in expensive signings. He makes the point that investment in a couple of defenders could have prolonged the Famous 5 era and that at the end of the 50's a crop of promising youngsters most notably Joe Baker were sold.

We have been a selling club throughout our history and in that regard Rod Petrie / STF are upholding that tradition.

My view of STF / Rod is that they are more interested in leaving an infrastructure legacy than a footballing success legacy. Having said that id much rather have STF in charge than a Vlad type figure or any of the characters whove come into English clubs , promised success and delivered receivership. I dont see anyone lining up in the wings to replace STF and if I did id be more suspicious than pleased. Calum Melville at Dundee was just the latest in a long line of owners who promised big signings and delivered financial disaster.

I guess that's the point, should STF pop his clogs tomorrow, the club continues. Apply that situation to Hearts or half the Premiership down South, and problems ensue, look at how quickly Gretna hit the bricks after their owner became too ill to pay the bills even.

Hasn't the suggestion been that STF's plan was to develop the club to a point were it could support itself, then turn over ownership to a Trust of some sort? As painful as the recent years have been, the club's infrastructure is now complete. Which is a good thing.

It stands to reason that once capital projects are complete, available funds will be directed into the playing side. We are only a few days into the first transfer window of CC's reign, and January's tend to be a poor bet anyway, so I think it's far too soon to break out the pitchforks.

Secondly, a fair amount of the money spent on the capital projects were long term borrowing / mortgages, not money that would have been spent on short term player acquisitions. In any case the idea that spending more = winning stuff is a nonsense anyway, unless I've missed the millions that Dundee United spent to win the Cup last year, or that ICT spent creating a side that has an away record we couldn't even dream of.

Cropley10
04-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Yes, but we don't need 4 or 5 threads all on the same whining subject; Sack Farmer, Sack Petrie, Sack Lindsey, Sack Tam McCourt, blah blah blah

For all the moaning about the Board, about selling players, about not spending on enough on players, a few points:

1. Who replaces the Board members who are binned by us all knowing fans?

2. How do you keep players at the club who want away, knowing they can get 5 times their salary down South? In the case of Bamba, surely £200k for a guy who would have left for f all in the summer is good business?

3. How many clubs in Scotland have spent more on players and wages in the last few years than us? I think the answer is 3.

4. So more money spent equals better players does it? Tell that to Alan O'Brien.

I'll have a go at answering that Scott:

1. No need to bin the Board, trim them back maybe, but it's evolution we need not revolution. This Board has vigorously pursued a strategy where profit is the priority, that may be why we now have such a poor team. I'd say its time for a revision of the current strategy.

2. Simple answer: We can't. End of. But to sell every one of these players and have no one lined up or even brought in to fill that position, isn't a strategy at all, it's madness. We sell for big bucks and then get trialists and bargain basement players no-one has ever really heard of, or anyone else really wants.
Sooner or later this will come back to haunt any business, any team...IMHO.

3. Frankly I've no idea. And with respect neither do you. It might be 3 it might be 4 or 5, we'll never know. But irrespective of who paid what, what did OUR money get us? The team on the park now. Who bought them? A succession of inexperienced managers; Colin's was a total rookie and had his pocket-picked. As anyone in his boots would have done, it's the law of the jungle. Mixu, another rookie, more poor players (ex Murray, Deeko and Sol), Yogi - never had a bolt to spend at Falkirk he'd boast, bought garbage (ex Miller and Stokes, mibees Brown).

4. Ah good ol Alan. The happy-clappers Trump Card. Well he was probably the worst player I've watched play every game for Hibs, so he's the reason we don't want to spend on quality? That I'm afraid is a somewhat flawed argument, in fact it's so flawed an argument it's not an argument. It's a very poor excuse. Like I said Collins' had his pocket picked, the boy's a grade a dud and will not play at a higher level.

We were told a brighter future was round the corner, except there isn't or wasn't - we're staring relegation in the face, watching miserable football and we're told to either stop moaning, or be more patient. Weird.

Everyone else seems to be playing a different game - I'd say if you can't beat 'em join 'em....

Cropley10
04-01-2011, 07:27 PM
I guess that's the point, should STF pop his clogs tomorrow, the club continues. Apply that situation to Hearts or half the Premiership down South, and problems ensue, look at how quickly Gretna hit the bricks after their owner became too ill to pay the bills even.

Hasn't the suggestion been that STF's plan was to develop the club to a point were it could support itself, then turn over ownership to a Trust of some sort? As painful as the recent years have been, the club's infrastructure is now complete. Which is a good thing.

It stands to reason that once capital projects are complete, available funds will be directed into the playing side. We are only a few days into the first transfer window of CC's reign, and January's tend to be a poor bet anyway, so I think it's far too soon to break out the pitchforks.

Secondly, a fair amount of the money spent on the capital projects were long term borrowing / mortgages, not money that would have been spent on short term player acquisitions. In any case the idea that spending more = winning stuff is a nonsense anyway, unless I've missed the millions that Dundee United spent to win the Cup last year, or that ICT spent creating a side that has an away record we couldn't even dream of.

With the very greatest of respect to all concerned no-body knows what will happen when that day comes. The ownership may/will transfer to someone else,who that is we don't know...

And in case you don't know Eddie T at DUFC wrote cheques every year to subsidise the team. His son is less/not keen to do the same.

ICT - own their own stadium and training facility, debt free and balance their books. Like you say an away record to be proud of - and a manager who knows this League.

All this talk of Jan being a poor time to buy - well 'needs must' or it's Div 1 here we come. And I know, I know - no-one died the last time we got relegated, but I'd really, really, rather not try and stave off the threat with this bunch...

MrSmith
04-01-2011, 07:30 PM
ScottB, I haven't once stated sack the board. I am again, simply reminding Rod and his fellow board members that they have responsibility to put a team on the park that will represent Hibernian FC in a fashion that is both fit for purpose and acceptable to the paying customer - we the fans!

I support CC but can't help this feeling of another AM but... the board need to support him properly not with a couple of coins and pocket fluff!

ScottB
04-01-2011, 07:33 PM
I'll have a go at answering that Scott:

1. No need to bin the Board, trim them back maybe, but it's evolution we need not revolution. This Board has vigorously pursued a strategy where profit is the priority, that may be why we now have such a poor team. I'd say its time for a revision of the current strategy.

2. Simple answer: We can't. End of. But to sell every one of these players and have no one lined up or even brought in to fill that position, isn't a strategy at all, it's madness. We sell for big bucks and then get trialists and bargain basement players no-one has ever really heard of, or anyone else really wants.
Sooner or later this will come back to haunt any business, any team...IMHO.

3. Frankly I've no idea. And with respect neither do you. It might be 3 it might be 4 or 5, we'll never know. But irrespective of who paid what, what did OUR money get us? The team on the park now. Who bought them? A succession of inexperienced managers; Colin's was a total rookie and had his pocket-picked. As anyone in his boots would have done, it's the law of the jungle. Mixu, another rookie, more poor players (ex Murray, Deeko and Sol), Yogi - never had a bolt to spend at Falkirk he'd boast, bought garbage (ex Miller and Stokes, mibees aye).

4. Ah good ol Alan. The happy-clappers Trump Card. Well he was probably the worst player I've watched play every game for Hibs, so he's the reason we don't want to spend on quality? That I'm afraid is a somewhat flawed argument, in fact it's so flawed an argument it's not an argument. It's a very poor excuse. Like I said Collins' had his pocket picked, the boy's a grade a dud and will not play at a higher level.

We were told a brighter future was round the corner, except there isn't or wasn't - we're staring relegation in the face, watching miserable football and we're told to either stop moaning, or be more patient. Weird.

Everyone else seems to be playing a different game - I'd say if you can't beat 'em join 'em....

It's not an argument against quality, it's an argument against the assertion of some that if we simply spent more, we'd have a better team. O'Brien, Maka, Riordan, Murray, Stokes and Miller stand out as recent 'expensive signings' and of those 2 were known quantities as ex players, one, while good, was a disruptive influence, 2 were awful and the last is patchy at best. While other teams in the division have cheaply assembled squads that can run rings round ours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from happy, but my anger and questions are aimed at the clubs Scouts and Coaches. All the players we've lost have been replaced with, for the most part as you say, dross. Clearly more than a few people at the club thought otherwise when signing the Rankins and Hoggs of the team. Secondly they singularly fail at uncovering good quality players in the lower leagues.

As for the Coaches, why have our players, under 4 successive managers now, continued to look unfit, uninterested and be bloody awful at the basics? I can only surmise from that that there is something going wrong in training.

I think Petrie has backed the last 2 managers well, and will no doubt back CC, the problem is that the last two bought poorly, either through their own bad ideas or the advice of our scouting network. Unless people think Petrie should be vetoing player deals and taking responsibility for that? If anything, I think he could easily have been burned by it, hence the perceived 'cutting off' that Mixu and Hughes got.

Hibee Daz
04-01-2011, 08:49 PM
It's not the keeping them - as you point out - we can't. It's that we sell a player and then wander off into the bargain basement, bin ends, bottom 6 teams, wherever to look for someone to replace them.

The last decent signing was Stokes, a season and 23 goals later, we sell him on the last day of the transfer window because he's a naughty boy.

But look back over every body we've sold and tell me who we've lined up to replace them? We haven't by and large - we just keep our fingers crossed that Joe Keenan will be the new Kevin Thomson. Crazy.

Mind you we have returned a profit in the each of the last 6 years.

:agree:

What is the point in working hard to sustain the club, whilst your forgetting that in the long term if you can't keep bums on seats, all the hard work will have all been for nothing!

Hibee Daz
04-01-2011, 09:06 PM
It's not an argument against quality, it's an argument against the assertion of some that if we simply spent more, we'd have a better team. O'Brien, Maka, Riordan, Murray, Stokes and Miller stand out as recent 'expensive signings' and of those 2 were known quantities as ex players, one, while good, was a disruptive influence, 2 were awful and the last is patchy at best. While other teams in the division have cheaply assembled squads that can run rings round ours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from happy, but my anger and questions are aimed at the clubs Scouts and Coaches. All the players we've lost have been replaced with, for the most part as you say, dross. Clearly more than a few people at the club thought otherwise when signing the Rankins and Hoggs of the team. Secondly they singularly fail at uncovering good quality players in the lower leagues.

As for the Coaches, why have our players, under 4 successive managers now, continued to look unfit, uninterested and be bloody awful at the basics? I can only surmise from that that there is something going wrong in training.

I think Petrie has backed the last 2 managers well, and will no doubt back CC, the problem is that the last two bought poorly, either through their own bad ideas or the advice of our scouting network. Unless people think Petrie should be vetoing player deals and taking responsibility for that? If anything, I think he could easily have been burned by it, hence the perceived 'cutting off' that Mixu and Hughes got.

Is it not the board that has hired them?

Is it not the board who have the final say on who we sign due to finances, a board that has in the past been quite happy to sign players on the back of DVD footage having never had an expert coach/scout see them play in the flesh!

Its our boards continued penny pinching that is to blame for a lack of quality coaching/scouting IMO.
Maybe if they did actually implement a professional coaching/scouting set up we would see value for money on the park rather than paying over the odds in wages for a bag of ***** and unfit ***** at that!

sahib
04-01-2011, 10:33 PM
Is it not the board that has hired them?

Is it not the board who have the final say on who we sign due to finances, a board that has in the past been quite happy to sign players on the back of DVD footage having never had an expert coach/scout see them play in the flesh!

Its our boards continued penny pinching that is to blame for a lack of quality coaching/scouting IMO.
Maybe if they did actually implement a professional coaching/scouting set up we would see value for money on the park rather than paying over the odds in wages for a bag of ***** and unfit ***** at that!

Not trying to be deliberately obtuse, but could you give some examples of players signed in this fashion. We have a prof. management team surely "scouting" for senior players is part of their brief. Not to mention Gareth Evans, Alister Stevenson, James McDonaugh and Bill Hendry. How many people could Hibs afford full time in the type of roles you describe?

hibsbollah
04-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Selling off top players and replacing them with poorer quality ....its the Hibs way,

Reading Lawrie Reillys book he talks about arguably Hibs greatest Chairman Harry Swan, Lawrie wonders what happened to all the money which came in during the days of the 40,000 plus crowds as it wasnt invested in expensive signings. He makes the point that investment in a couple of defenders could have prolonged the Famous 5 era and that at the end of the 50's a crop of promising youngsters most notably Joe Baker were sold.

We have been a selling club throughout our history and in that regard Rod Petrie / STF are upholding that tradition.

My view of STF / Rod is that they are more interested in leaving an infrastructure legacy than a footballing success legacy. Having said that id much rather have STF in charge than a Vlad type figure or any of the characters whove come into English clubs , promised success and delivered receivership. I dont see anyone lining up in the wings to replace STF and if I did id be more suspicious than pleased. Calum Melville at Dundee was just the latest in a long line of owners who promised big signings and delivered financial disaster.

Very interesting post, both in terms of the Reilly point and the point about STF being better than the average owner. Be careful what you wish for.

Heckys Wheel
05-01-2011, 12:19 AM
Hearts? Very similar size fanbase. Haven't lost a Derby since whenever...23 points ahead. Being £30m in debt doesn't seem to bother any of them, sure they might go bust, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thank you.

You've demonstrated my point perfectly.

Hearts for a business model. :top marks Stop it!

MrSmith
05-01-2011, 12:33 AM
You know, I was thinking about Hearts today and their success this season?? It kinda hit me like this: It cost Hearts, £40 million, a new stand and a £9 million pound loss per year to beat us, a **** team 1-0!

Great model that eh!

Heckys Wheel
05-01-2011, 05:29 AM
You know, I was thinking about Hearts today and their success this season?? It kinda hit me like this: It cost Hearts, £40 million, a new stand and a £9 million pound loss per year to beat us, a **** team 1-0!

Great model that eh!

hat is the point I was trying to make.

They were pish at this point last season. We were flying.

Back then everybody was revelling over our business model. We'd bought Stokes and Miller. Riordan had been brought back and we were holding onto Bamba despite interest from other clubs.

Hearts were in debt and struggling. They've put together a decent run in the first half of this season and all of a sudden there's fans looking on enviously at their "business model".

Pay more than you can afford. When it gets too tight, don't pay the players and blame it on a technical glitch. Massive debt, crumbling stands, unhappy players, joke of the sport. All for third place in the league, where we were this time last season (or thereabouts).

I don't believe anybody wants Hearts' business model which brings us back to, who is a good role model?

Plenty of moaning being done with very little solutions being offered.

Phil D. Rolls
05-01-2011, 10:08 AM
You know, I was thinking about Hearts today and their success this season?? It kinda hit me like this: It cost Hearts, £40 million, a new stand and a £9 million pound loss per year to beat us, a **** team 1-0!

Great model that eh!

Exactly, what have they got for their money? Over the last five years our on field achievements have been about the same, and off the field we've done better.


hat is the point I was trying to make.

They were pish at this point last season. We were flying.

Back then everybody was revelling over our business model. We'd bought Stokes and Miller. Riordan had been brought back and we were holding onto Bamba despite interest from other clubs.

Hearts were in debt and struggling. They've put together a decent run in the first half of this season and all of a sudden there's fans looking on enviously at their "business model".

Pay more than you can afford. When it gets too tight, don't pay the players and blame it on a technical glitch. Massive debt, crumbling stands, unhappy players, joke of the sport. All for third place in the league, where we were this time last season (or thereabouts).

I don't believe anybody wants Hearts' business model which brings us back to, who is a good role model?

Plenty of moaning being done with very little solutions being offered.

:agree: Because, on the whole, things haven't been too bad. I can see why people worry about the trend on the pitch but, being realistic, we have as good a business model as anybody.

Andy74
05-01-2011, 10:29 AM
Can anyone tell me how exactly you go about selling a player for millions and then replace him with equal or better quality?

There seems to be lots of criticism about not doing just that but never have understood how you do it.

To me you do your best with what income you have coming in and that inevitibly means that you are lloking at yougn kids coming through, guys that have ability or are past it, or guys who can have abililty but don't always use it.

If the quality was out there for free at under £2k a week then we wouldn't have clubs giving us millions for our developed players, they'd be out getting the free cheap ones.

PaulSmith
05-01-2011, 10:47 AM
Can anyone tell me how exactly you go about selling a player for millions and then replace him with equal or better quality?

There seems to be lots of criticism about not doing just that but never have understood how you do it.

To me you do your best with what income you have coming in and that inevitibly means that you are lloking at yougn kids coming through, guys that have ability or are past it, or guys who can have abililty but don't always use it.

If the quality was out there for free at under £2k a week then we wouldn't have clubs giving us millions for our developed players, they'd be out getting the free cheap ones.

Sell Brown for £4.4m and then use £1m of it to purchase Steve Naismith and Barry Robson, thus improving the team & squad, weaken the opposition and having another two very saleable assets on your books?

If you don't want to go down the road of spending transfer fees then tap up and buy the other best Bosman players going about, who in turn may also generate a further income in 2 years.

Yes the above is very simplistic and there are no gaurentees but you did ask for an example.

Beefster
05-01-2011, 10:55 AM
Sell Brown for £4.4m and then use £1m of it to purchase Steve Naismith and Barry Robson, thus improving the team & squad, weaken the opposition and having another two very saleable assets on your books?

If you don't want to go down the road of spending transfer fees then tap up and buy the other best Bosman players going about, who in turn may also generate a further income in 2 years.

Yes the above is very simplistic and there are no gaurentees but you did ask for an example.

All good except we would have had to pay around £3m to sign both Robson and Naismith in 2007.

smurf
05-01-2011, 10:56 AM
Sell Brown for £4.4m and then use £1m of it to purchase Steve Naismith and Barry Robson, thus improving the team & squad, weaken the opposition and having another two very saleable assets on your books?

If you don't want to go down the road of spending transfer fees then tap up and buy the other best Bosman players going about, who in turn may also generate a further income in 2 years.

Yes the above is very simplistic and there are no gaurentees but you did ask for an example.

Exactly...

We get shot of Stokes and we were all up in arms about the pittance we received for him but suggest you reinvest less than half to say get Goodwillie from Dundee Utd and its not realistic...

greenlex
05-01-2011, 10:59 AM
Sell Brown for £4.4m and then use £1m of it to purchase Steve Naismith and Barry Robson, thus improving the team & squad, weaken the opposition and having another two very saleable assets on your books?

If you don't want to go down the road of spending transfer fees then tap up and buy the other best Bosman players going about, who in turn may also generate a further income in 2 years.

Yes the above is very simplistic and there are no gaurentees but you did ask for an example.

Couple of things about this strategy. Could we afford the wages they utimaty got at the old firm?
What if they turned out to be average and were not reselable? Would the board get it fir wasting money on dross?

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 11:32 AM
Can anyone tell me how exactly you go about selling a player for millions and then replace him with equal or better quality?

There seems to be lots of criticism about not doing just that but never have understood how you do it.

To me you do your best with what income you have coming in and that inevitibly means that you are lloking at yougn kids coming through, guys that have ability or are past it, or guys who can have abililty but don't always use it.

If the quality was out there for free at under £2k a week then we wouldn't have clubs giving us millions for our developed players, they'd be out getting the free cheap ones.

This is another one of those points that always polarises the discussion.

I don't think anyone has ever said sell and replace with the same or better. That's simply unrealistic and slightly disingenous.

But what Hibs have done and continue to do is to sell and have no replacement whatsoever in mind. Instead we rely on trialists, bargain basement bin-ends, bottom 6 'journeymen' or our diminishing pool of youngsters.

For example we sell David Murphy and bought Colin Nish and John Rankin. We've not had a LB since Murph left, and still don't. We sell Whittaker and hope McCann will step up, or Van Zanten will go on to be a key player. Then we end up with Hart. Jones was sold, right at the end of the window, our Captain, a key performer, who did we have there to fill his size 13s? Paul Hanlon? I genuinely don't know...

In any business - in any team - if you remove a key performer, a key asset, and just hope that you will grow a replacement or find a cheap one, you are very likely to be disappointed when the performance of your team diminishes.

As I've said before - what would have been a 'great piece of business' would have been to have sold Sol (before I'd even had a bacon roll FFS), but then said Hibernian are delighted to announce the signing of....[insert name of CH here]'. That would show there is some form of succession planning going on, rather than this obvious strategy of 'sell and hope'.

Frankly it looks inept. And we could get relegated as a result of it.

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 11:37 AM
Exactly, what have they got for their money? Over the last five years our on field achievements have been about the same, and off the field we've done better.

On field? What's their Derby record like? They've had some bad days and finished 8th, but they have an away record now, that we can only dream of.


:agree: Because, on the whole, things haven't been too bad. I can see why people worry about the trend on the pitch but, being realistic, we have as good a business model as anybody.

I'm not interested in 'business models' - this is laughable in one sense, you don't win matches, Cups, prizes for having a great balance sheet, or for posting a profit 6 years in a row. The SPL is not a level playing field - we are almost playing by our own rules - and we're staring relegation in the face.

Andy74
05-01-2011, 11:55 AM
This is another one of those points that always polarises the discussion.

I don't think anyone has ever said sell and replace with the same or better. That's simply unrealistic and slightly disingenous.

But what Hibs have done and continue to do is to sell and have no replacement whatsoever in mind. Instead we rely on trialists, bargain basement bin-ends, bottom 6 'journeymen' or our diminishing pool of youngsters.

For example we sell David Murphy and bought Colin Nish and John Rankin. We've not had a LB since Murph left, and still don't. We sell Whittaker and hope McCann will step up, or Van Zanten will go on to be a key player. Then we end up with Hart. Jones was sold, right at the end of the window, our Captain, a key performer, who did we have there to fill his size 13s? Paul Hanlon? I genuinely don't know...

In any business - in any team - if you remove a key performer, a key asset, and just hope that you will grow a replacement or find a cheap one, you are very likely to be disappointed when the performance of your team diminishes.

As I've said before - what would have been a 'great piece of business' would have been to have sold Sol (before I'd even had a bacon roll FFS), but then said Hibernian are delighted to announce the signing of....[insert name of CH here]'. That would show there is some form of succession planning going on, rather than this obvious strategy of 'sell and hope'.

Frankly it looks inept. And we could get relegated as a result of it.

A one in and one out system would be great if there was a queue of decent replacements in those positions of the right quality at the right price.

Frankly things don't really work out like that in the real world which is why it takes managers so long to mould a squad and with us changing managers so often we never get to the the point it's even half done before we start again.

On the specific ones you mentioned Ian Murray was brought in at left back and as you say we had Van Zanten and McCann at right back. Exactly my point on the type of players we are left with when trying to replace quality. And yes, we end up with Hart, a previous success in the SPL and played in the championship, just what our money buys.

When Jones went we had Hogg and Bamba and Thicot and Murray had just proven to be decent cover at the tail end of the previous year. They went on to have the best defensive record I can remember until about February.

I think Dickoh had been brought in previously to replace Sol and we'll just have to wait on that one to see if we get anyone else. The manager is having to take a call on that to get some money in early when a good offer was made. He's obviously happy with Hanlon as well.

I do get what you are saying but it all comes down to cash and quality you can get for it. The board have done their job in trying to provide what they can to get decent replacements, it's then up to the managers. It's worth noting we are well behind teams with far less pricey players than we have and in recent times the players we have paid most for have been the biggest problams.

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 12:02 PM
A one in and one out system would be great if there was a queue of decent replacements in those positions of the right quality at the right price.

Frankly things don't really work out like that in the real world which is why it takes managers so long to mould a squad and with us changing managers so often we never get to the the point it's even half done before we start again.

On the specific ones you mentioned Ian Murray was brought in at left back and as you say we had Van Zanten and McCann at right back. Exactly my point on the type of players we are left with when trying to replace quality. And yes, we end up with Hart, a previous success in the SPL and played in the championship, just what our money buys.

When Jones went we had Hogg and Bamba and Thicot and Murray had just proven to be decent cover at the tail end of the previous year. They went on to have the best defensive record I can remember until about February.

I think Dickoh had been brought in previously to replace Sol and we'll just have to wait on that one to see if we get anyone else. The manager is having to take a call on that to get some money in early when a good offer was made. He's obviously happy with Hanlon as well.

I do get what you are saying but it all comes down to cash and quality you can get for it. The board have done their job in trying to provide what they can to get decent replacements, it's then up to the managers. It's worth noting we are well behind teams with far less pricey players than we have and in recent times the players we have paid most for have been the biggest problams.

I suppose the telling thing is that right now we've literally no-one left to sell.

For me, the problem is - with hindsight and these things always are with hindsight - our record at hiring and firing managers, coupled with selling talent ( and I have no problem with selling players, it's the way of the world) and how we've then fared in the transfer market - as you say we are, "well behind teams with far less pricey players than we have and in recent times the players we have paid most for have been the biggest problems".

So - bad luck? Bad planning? Bad strategy? A bit of all three I'd say.

Hibee Daz
05-01-2011, 12:05 PM
Not trying to be deliberately obtuse, but could you give some examples of players signed in this fashion. We have a prof. management team surely "scouting" for senior players is part of their brief. Not to mention Gareth Evans, Alister Stevenson, James McDonaugh and Bill Hendry. How many people could Hibs afford full time in the type of roles you describe?

The full-back Abderoouf Zarabi definitely was and I'm pretty sure that De la Cruz and Hurtardo where as well!

smurf
05-01-2011, 12:11 PM
What's interesting is that there are very few of us with an issue at us being a 'Selling club'.

The issue is that because of our absolute refusal to have a sensible 'Reinvesting' policy we now have nothing else to sell and therefore no 'Reinvesting' policy option.

And that's ultimately why John Collins walked.

He had been undermined by Rod meeting the players behind his back.

But he felt huge frustration at the David Murphy situation.

He too accepted that he should be sold.

But he couldn't accept that the board were not prepared to budge for a few hundred pounds a week on the replacement he had identified.

Craig_in_Prague
05-01-2011, 12:12 PM
This is another one of those points that always polarises the discussion.

I don't think anyone has ever said sell and replace with the same or better. That's simply unrealistic and slightly disingenous.

But what Hibs have done and continue to do is to sell and have no replacement whatsoever in mind. Instead we rely on trialists, bargain basement bin-ends, bottom 6 'journeymen' or our diminishing pool of youngsters.

For example we sell David Murphy and bought Colin Nish and John Rankin. We've not had a LB since Murph left, and still don't. We sell Whittaker and hope McCann will step up, or Van Zanten will go on to be a key player. Then we end up with Hart. Jones was sold, right at the end of the window, our Captain, a key performer, who did we have there to fill his size 13s? Paul Hanlon? I genuinely don't know...

In any business - in any team - if you remove a key performer, a key asset, and just hope that you will grow a replacement or find a cheap one, you are very likely to be disappointed when the performance of your team diminishes.

As I've said before - what would have been a 'great piece of business' would have been to have sold Sol (before I'd even had a bacon roll FFS), but then said Hibernian are delighted to announce the signing of....[insert name of CH here]'. That would show there is some form of succession planning going on, rather than this obvious strategy of 'sell and hope'.

Frankly it looks inept. And we could get relegated as a result of it.

:top marks


We all accept that good / young players will move on, hopefully for a good fee and they are entitled to progress in their career.
BUT it's up to the club to continue scouting and bringing in sufficient quality to ensure Hibs are fighting their weight.

I agree sending out young players on loan for experience is a good thing for them; but there must be a case to get some into OUR team. Booth is young but has always looked like he could walk into our side no problem. We shouldn't be afraid of playing the best of youth.

Petrie being such a Balance Sheet man, surely must not only think about getting 'X' for a player next year and wages are 'x' etc, but we need to get our finger our and sign better players.

With all we have in place, its a DISGRACE to be sitting looking at relegation.

We scooped everything in Scotland in U19 level 2 yrs ago; Why on earth is barely 2 or 3 players on verge of our 1st team squad. Were we lucky? Badly managed since?

Something stinks round ER way and football performances and results ought to start being priority again.

Beefster
05-01-2011, 12:12 PM
The full-back Abderoouf Zarabi definitely was and I'm pretty sure that De la Cruz and Hurtardo where as well!

De La Cruz probably isn't the best example considering that we made over a million on him.

Phil D. Rolls
05-01-2011, 12:13 PM
I suppose the telling thing is that right now we've literally no-one left to sell.

For me, the problem is - with hindsight and these things always are with hindsight - our record at hiring and firing managers, coupled with selling talent ( and I have no problem with selling players, it's the way of the world) and how we've then fared in the transfer market - as you say we are, "well behind teams with far less pricey players than we have and in recent times the players we have paid most for have been the biggest problems".

So - bad luck? Bad planning? Bad strategy? A bit of all three I'd say.

I think that Lewis Stevenson and Witherspoon are two examples of players who may have reached a higher level under better managers. I think there was also a theory that Yogi could bring some players from Falkirk and develop them into sellable players.

Andy74
05-01-2011, 12:22 PM
:top marks


We all accept that good / young players will move on, hopefully for a good fee and they are entitled to progress in their career.
BUT it's up to the club to continue scouting and bringing in sufficient quality to ensure Hibs are fighting their weight.

I agree sending out young players on loan for experience is a good thing for them; but there must be a case to get some into OUR team. Booth is young but has always looked like he could walk into our side no problem. We shouldn't be afraid of playing the best of youth.

Petrie being such a Balance Sheet man, surely must not only think about getting 'X' for a player next year and wages are 'x' etc, but we need to get our finger our and sign better players.

With all we have in place, its a DISGRACE to be sitting looking at relegation.

We scooped everything in Scotland in U19 level 2 yrs ago; Why on earth is barely 2 or 3 players on verge of our 1st team squad. Were we lucky? Badly managed since?

Something stinks round ER way and football performances and results ought to start being priority again.

Did you really expect a bigger return from the under 19s? Its very rare for more than one or two to come out of each crop to play for the first team and even more rare for them to stay there.

Yes, we had a good team, just means they were better than the other under 19 teams around, most of whom have also probably not ended up in their first teams.

We will probably end up with Hanlon, Booth, Wotherspoon and Byrne as first team players from that crop which is not bad at all, with Flynn still around, Welsh, Taggart, maybe Moyes all in with a shout.

To be honest though hibs fans were unhappy with 4th place last year and many of the perfoamances even when we were playing well and are demandinfg new signings. You really think a team full of more under 19 graduates would suit us in practice?

Craig_in_Prague
05-01-2011, 12:28 PM
Did you really expect a bigger return from the under 19s? Its very rare for more than one or two to come out of each crop to play for the first team and even more rare for them to stay there.

Yes, we had a good team, just means they were better than the other under 19 teams around, most of whom have also probably not ended up in their first teams.

We will probably end up with Hanlon, Booth, Wotherspoon and Byrne as first team players from that crop which is not bad at all, with Flynn still around, Welsh, Taggart, maybe Moyes all in with a shout.

To be honest though hibs fans were unhappy with 4th place last year and many of the perfoamances even when we were playing well and are demandinfg new signings. You really think a team full of more under 19 graduates would suit us in practice?

I didn't say I wanted that.
but if you've good enough young talent at your club, why not get them into the team!
that's why you have them there no? they're your player.

Rather than signing Hart, wasting money on Grounds etc, is money we can use towards getting better quality into the club and play our younger players.

If youth aren't good enough then fine, but I don't accept winning cup and league double and seeing just a couple come through, is a 'normal' thing..... Probably in Scotland it is.

As to finishing 4th, I think in the end we were all VERY Happy? and why? we were clear in 3rd and fell apart....with performances being poor for quite a long time.

Signing good players doesn't need to cost a fortune but we are not doing well enough on that front and hence why we're stuck with a squad that is looking like near 80% turnover this summer !

Andy74
05-01-2011, 12:37 PM
I didn't say I wanted that.
but if you've good enough young talent at your club, why not get them into the team!
that's why you have them there no? they're your player.

Rather than signing Hart, wasting money on Grounds etc, is money we can use towards getting better quality into the club and play our younger players.

If youth aren't good enough then fine, but I don't accept winning cup and league double and seeing just a couple come through, is a 'normal' thing..... Probably in Scotland it is.

As to finishing 4th, I think in the end we were all VERY Happy? and why? we were clear in 3rd and fell apart....with performances being poor for quite a long time.

Signing good players doesn't need to cost a fortune but we are not doing well enough on that front and hence why we're stuck with a squad that is looking like near 80% turnover this summer !

Well the kids weren't good enough, they might be eventually some of them. They would have been playing if they were. Hanlon is an accomplished player yet still I'm not sure he is ready to play every week at centre half.

Wotherspoon could probably have done without playing so much so early.

Byrne did get some time but needed his loan to get experience, in the same way that it worked for the likes of Riordan.

Bear in mind we also had Galbraith who is younger than the rest of them around the squad as well.

That's actually a great return on young players from any team. I think many peple got a bit carried away with the quality of the under 19 team.

As you say, performances had been poor and people were complaining and felt fortunate that we got 4th. Try sticking a load more kids into that equation.

I'm seeing a sort of mixed message on this thread now, we haven't invested enough on quality players, yet we've tried to do that with maybe the managers making wrong choices, yet we also want to have played kids instead?

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm seeing a sort of mixed message on this thread now, we haven't invested enough on quality players, yet we've tried to do that with maybe the managers making wrong choices, yet we also want to have played kids instead?

Bad luck, bad strategy, bad planning, is my take. In retrospect we've hired the wrong people on and off field.

Who's the one consistent person throughout the upheaval of the past few years?

He who we cannot criticise...:wink:

Hibee Daz
05-01-2011, 01:02 PM
De La Cruz probably isn't the best example considering that we made over a million on him.

The main point is that IMO buddy, Hibernian FC should always operate in a professional manner when scouting players.
De la Cruz was a complete fluke and if your honest I think you'll agree that we where very lucky to get the fee that we did from Villa, as IMO De la Cruz wasn't worth the 3/4 of a mill we paid for him.
It's a gamble a club like ours should not be taking, just because a player is on a free doesn't always mean value for money, so a good bit more research should be done to make sure that we are indeed getting a bargain rather than a turkey IMO.

greenlex
05-01-2011, 04:45 PM
Bad luck, bad strategy, bad planning, is my take. In retrospect we've hired the wrong people on and off field.

Who's the one consistent person throughout the upheaval of the past few years?

He who we cannot criticise...:wink:
Bad Luck - Perhaps
Bad Strategy - Was ok for everyone up till 3 years ago.
Bad Planning - I dont think so.
In retrospect(Hindsight) its easy to take potshots at the hiring and firing.

We as a club are run very well. We dont go overboard and spend sums we cant manage although with losses of 2 million per year without player sales that is debateable.

To say the club is in an upheaval situation is a bit strange is it not.
We are not able or willing to try and compete at the top end of the market for anything from managers to players. We have however since the Mcleish years tried to get the club to a position where it can be run on a sustainable platform.
To do this we bring through our own youngsters,take chances on other youngsters we bring to the club and take a chance on established players who are out of favour with their exsisting clubs or maybe trying to resurect a failing career.
The degree of success in this strategy(planning) has been varied. At the moment the success is very limited but I dont see any reason to change that strategy on the basis of our current form. We wont finish high up the leauge or even top six but I dont think we will be relegated.
Folks need to look at the strategy longer term instead of looking at the last year. The form has not been ignored by the board and have acted accordingly. They will back the new manager as they did the others. If it doesnt work out they will change again.
I am far from happy at seeing our league position and current form but I am happy that the board and Petrie have the clubs long term interests at heart.
No need for change at the top.

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Bad Luck - Perhaps
Bad Strategy - Was ok for everyone up till 3 years ago.
Bad Planning - I dont think so.
In retrospect(Hindsight) its easy to take potshots at the hiring and firing.

We as a club are run very well. We dont go overboard and spend sums we cant manage although with losses of 2 million per year without player sales that is debateable.

To say the club is in an upheaval situation is a bit strange is it not.
We are not able or willing to try and compete at the top end of the market for anything from managers to players. We have however since the Mcleish years tried to get the club to a position where it can be run on a sustainable platform.
To do this we bring through our own youngsters,take chances on other youngsters we bring to the club and take a chance on established players who are out of favour with their exsisting clubs or maybe trying to resurect a failing career.
The degree of success in this strategy(planning) has been varied. At the moment the success is very limited but I dont see any reason to change that strategy on the basis of our current form. We wont finish high up the leauge or even top six but I dont think we will be relegated.
Folks need to look at the strategy longer term instead of looking at the last year. The form has not been ignored by the board and have acted accordingly. They will back the new manager as they did the others. If it doesnt work out they will change again.
I am far from happy at seeing our league position and current form but I am happy that the board and Petrie have the clubs long term interests at heart.
No need for change at the top.

I think we've definitely had bad luck, Duffy breaking his foot for example.

If you say the strategy was OK til 3 years ago what has it been since? Why have we still pursued it or not reviewed it? For me the erosion of quality in the team, to the point where we have very little, and no-one worth selling, is the key factor.

The 'upheaval' relates to our hiring and firing of managers and players alike. I do think of this as 'upheaval' because we've kept doing it.

But you say "They will back the new manager as they did the others. If it doesnt work out they will change again." I just don't see that as a plan or a strategy. I certainly wouldn't invest in a plc that said or did that.

I hope just as you do that we won't get relegated. But I don't think we should be even thinking of it - you say I'm taking 'pot-shots' - I think that's unfair, I'm questioning what we're doing differently, as it seems as if we keep repeating the same mistakes

greenlex
05-01-2011, 07:11 PM
I think we've definitely had bad luck, Duffy breaking his foot for example.

If you say the strategy was OK til 3 years ago what has it been since? Why have we still pursued it or not reviewed it? For me the erosion of quality in the team, to the point where we have very little, and no-one worth selling, is the key factor. I think the strategy should still work I only mentioned it because no one was complaining when we were doing well and I was trying to highlight the need to look beyond the last 12 months on the park.

The 'upheaval' relates to our hiring and firing of managers and players alike. I do think of this as 'upheaval' because we've kept doing it. Fair do's but sticking with a manager that isnt succeeding and looking likely to fail medium to long term needs to be changed when their limitations become apparent. Both Mixu and Hughes were given enough time to see if they were taking us in the right direction. Both appeared to be failing and the board acted at the right time.

But you say "They will back the new manager as they did the others. If it doesnt work out they will change again." I just don't see that as a plan or a strategy. I certainly wouldn't invest in a plc that said or did that. I actually think the board have changed strategy regards management appointments. CC is far more experienced than the four previous encumbents. Time will tell if this change bears fruit. In any case he will be given time to shape his own team as the others were. He should actually get it done quicker because of the players out of contract at the end of the season.

I hope just as you do that we won't get relegated. But I don't think we should be even thinking of it - you say I'm taking 'pot-shots' - I think that's unfair, I'm questioning what we're doing differently, as it seems as if we keep repeating the same mistakes
Mistakes are made in every walk of life and at every club in the world. I reckon there are only really two what I would call mistakes been made and I think they have learned from one and the other isnt a ball breaker either.
The first was appointing yet another player as manager after Mixu. I think the time to appoint a CC type manager was then. As I said hopefully the lesson was learnt with the CC appointment.
The second I think is the financing of the new stand v expanding the playing budget more. Perhaps the Stand could have been longer term financed but again this could still happen to allow a better product on the park (if ultimately needed )by mortgaging it now or in the future. The problem I see with this is that if throwing money at the team doesnt work then we are on a slippery slope if bums dont sit in the new stand and its being paid for by longer financing. Its a fine line and a bit of a gamble. For the record The stand needed building and the time was right in my opinion.
I actually see signs of improvement on the park and see CC has a grasp of what is required on a match to match basis.
Onwards and upwards :flag:

Cropley10
05-01-2011, 08:31 PM
Mistakes are made in every walk of life and at every club in the world. I reckon there are only really two what I would call mistakes been made and I think they have learned from one and the other isnt a ball breaker either.
The first was appointing yet another player as manager after Mixu. I think the time to appoint a CC type manager was then. As I said hopefully the lesson was learnt with the CC appointment.
The second I think is the financing of the new stand v expanding the playing budget more. Perhaps the Stand could have been longer term financed but again this could still happen to allow a better product on the park (if ultimately needed )by mortgaging it now or in the future. The problem I see with this is that if throwing money at the team doesnt work then we are on a slippery slope if bums dont sit in the new stand and its being paid for by longer financing. Its a fine line and a bit of a gamble. For the record The stand needed building and the time was right in my opinion.
I actually see signs of improvement on the park and see CC has a grasp of what is required on a match to match basis.
Onwards and upwards :flag:

Here, here:flag:

ahibby
06-01-2011, 02:48 PM
Do we not already have cover for Bamba leaving? Maybe the directors think with Hogg, Hanlon, Thicot, Dickoh and Stephens all candidates for centre half (and Murray possibly), we are okay for cover in that position. Personally I don't and I wouldn't play Murray or Hogg there unless in an extreme emergency. So that would leave me with Thicot, Dickoh, Hanlon and Stephens. I haven't seen much of Stephens and therefore he is lacking games as is Thicot really over the past two seasons and so I'd have to go with Hanlon and Dickoh. If I was CC I woulnd't be all that happy with the situation. I'd be prepared to let Hogg go if it meant I could bring in a more usable CH. However I'd be looking for a first choice CH with the others named as backups and side kicks. Could I find better than we have with the money we have available?

Brads Laing
06-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Well done rod, you've moved us up a place since this was posted. Good work.:greengrin
Found this hilarious:top marks

down the slope
06-01-2011, 03:20 PM
Rods to busy playing the big time charlie with other league chairmen to bother about our present position, if things don't improve we will be playing Ayr not just in the cup but in the league as well !.

discman
06-01-2011, 03:38 PM
It's not an argument against quality, it's an argument against the assertion of some that if we simply spent more, we'd have a better team. O'Brien, Maka, Riordan, Murray, Stokes and Miller stand out as recent 'expensive signings' and of those 2 were known quantities as ex players, one, while good, was a disruptive influence, 2 were awful and the last is patchy at best. While other teams in the division have cheaply assembled squads that can run rings round ours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from happy, but my anger and questions are aimed at the clubs Scouts and Coaches. All the players we've lost have been replaced with, for the most part as you say, dross. Clearly more than a few people at the club thought otherwise when signing the Rankins and Hoggs of the team. Secondly they singularly fail at uncovering good quality players in the lower leagues.

As for the Coaches, why have our players, under 4 successive managers now, continued to look unfit, uninterested and be bloody awful at the basics? I can only surmise from that that there is something going wrong in training.

I think Petrie has backed the last 2 managers well, and will no doubt back CC, the problem is that the last two bought poorly, either through their own bad ideas or the advice of our scouting network. Unless people think Petrie should be vetoing player deals and taking responsibility for that? If anything, I think he could easily have been burned by it, hence the perceived 'cutting off' that Mixu and Hughes got.



Thats exactly what he does do,and has done since he arrived,check out article in Scotsman 2008,thats solely his responsibility,thought it was common knowledge!

greenlex
06-01-2011, 03:44 PM
Rods to busy playing the big time charlie with other league chairmen to bother about our present position, if things don't improve we will be playing Ayr not just in the cup but in the league as well !.
Aye I am sure he hasnt given our present situation a second thought eh?:rolleyes:

discman
06-01-2011, 03:46 PM
I didn't say I wanted that.
but if you've good enough young talent at your club, why not get them into the team!
that's why you have them there no? they're your player.

Rather than signing Hart, wasting money on Grounds etc, is money we can use towards getting better quality into the club and play our younger players.

If youth aren't good enough then fine, but I don't accept winning cup and league double and seeing just a couple come through, is a 'normal' thing..... Probably in Scotland it is.

As to finishing 4th, I think in the end we were all VERY Happy? and why? we were clear in 3rd and fell apart....with performances being poor for quite a long time.

Signing good players doesn't need to cost a fortune but we are not doing well enough on that front and hence why we're stuck with a squad that is looking like near 80% turnover this summer !


Disagree Grounds developing into agood left back,he and the other 4 at the back played well on Saturday,as side note why dont we take advantage of his long throw -ins ala Rory Delap at stoke? :cool2:

Hibs On Tour
06-01-2011, 10:21 PM
Our problems stem back to the day Rod Petrie made the Hibs job an impossible one by inviting a large group of players down East Lothian behind the back of the manager who had just won us a trophy.

Step away from the crack pipe. Seriously.

That particular crock has been done to death already. Regardless of the fact it paints an entirely untrue picture of what happened at that time, more importantly it has nothing to do with the mess we now find ourselves in, which is far more to do with our having went through so many managers in such a short period of time.

End result of where we are right now. No matter how hard it is just now, we HAVE to give CC time to build his own squad and mould his own team. Some players will go, others will stay and some new ones will no doubt come in. He's not daft - he can see the same problems we can. He has the experience we were after, hopefully he'll be able to use this to address the obvious problems and kick on.

Craig_in_Prague
07-01-2011, 10:10 AM
Disagree Grounds developing into agood left back,he and the other 4 at the back played well on Saturday,as side note why dont we take advantage of his long throw -ins ala Rory Delap at stoke? :cool2:

me thinks we have an outstanding LB in Booth that can develop there.
So why bring in a loan - when lets face it, is he really that good?

Just my opinion that we could have used the money elsewhere, whatever amount he costs us.

Knowing Zouma was out so long, surely meant we needed a bit more creativity in the side. We still miss that bit fight/dig in midfield. We still aren't strong enough at CH. ....etc etc.

Don't get me wrong I'm in favour of getting some loans into the squad, but I'd hope for some positive impact to the team. Don't think Grounds was particuarly an improvement to what we have.

Andy74
07-01-2011, 11:13 AM
Thats exactly what he does do,and has done since he arrived,check out article in Scotsman 2008,thats solely his responsibility,thought it was common knowledge!

That's just getting the deals done, not deciding who to go for and who not to go for.

You believe that Jambo nonsense about Rod deciding football targets?

hfc rd
07-01-2011, 02:27 PM
I am another who wants to see Rod Petrie give Caldo some money to spend. We have a magnificent trainning facility and stadium but the only thing that everyone knows that is currently lacking is a team. Its not the managements fault, its the current playing squad who have put us in this embarrasing predicament. And if God forbids we do get relegated then the board will realise on what happens when you don't listen to the fans as there will be attendances dropping vastly, no TV revenue money coming in, no sell-outs, hardly not many people will be interested in buy season tickets and therefore there will be a huge amount of empty seats on matchdays etc. The board really need to get the finger out and give Caldo the full backing financially that is desperately needed in order for us to avoid relegation and build a brand new and exciting team to watch next season. And also one thing, to those numpties that are calling for Calderwood to go, you guys definitely need to look at yourselves in the mirror. FFS he has only been at the helm for 3-4 months and is only seven days into his first transfer window as manger of Hibs. Even Sir Alex Ferguson would find it hard in turning this shambolic Hibs team around nevermind Colin Calderwood or ourselves.

smurf
07-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Step away from the crack pipe. Seriously.

That particular crock has been done to death already. Regardless of the fact it paints an entirely untrue picture of what happened at that time, more importantly it has nothing to do with the mess we now find ourselves in, which is far more to do with our having went through so many managers in such a short period of time.

End result of where we are right now. No matter how hard it is just now, we HAVE to give CC time to build his own squad and mould his own team. Some players will go, others will stay and some new ones will no doubt come in. He's not daft - he can see the same problems we can. He has the experience we were after, hopefully he'll be able to use this to address the obvious problems and kick on.

And you say that I should stay away from the Crack pipe...

Our management appointments have failed in part because they have been undermined by those above them and it started the day the board held an open forum behind JC's back.

Question for you...

Does our manager have full control of all discipline issues at Easter Road/East Mains. In respect of actually dealing with anything generated and subsequent sanctions?

And a further one...

Why was Pa Broon not remotely interested in even speaking to us about the position?

Our board are not totally to blame for where we are. Of course they are not. They have achieved a lot of positives.

But this absolute refusal to acknowledge that as its their leadership at the top they therefore have a key responsibility... well it really is just bonkers.

greenlex
07-01-2011, 11:18 PM
And you say that I should stay away from the Crack pipe...

Our management appointments have failed in part because they have been undermined by those above them and it started the day the board held an open forum behind JC's back.

Question for you...

Does our manager have full control of all discipline issues at Easter Road/East Mains. In respect of actually dealing with anything generated and subsequent sanctions?

And a further one...

Why was Pa Broon not remotely interested in even speaking to us about the position?

Our board are not totally to blame for where we are. Of course they are not. They have achieved a lot of positives.

But this absolute refusal to acknowledge that as its their leadership at the top they therefore have a key responsibility... well it really is just bonkers.
Smurf I don't know any mire than you do about goings on at ER. Here's a couple of possible scenarios for you about your questions.
In any work place the complaints proceedure goes up the the live management. Do you know if the players had approached JC with their grievance. If they did and it wasn't dealt with properly their next port of call would be the next person up the line. That would be RP.
Do you also know for sure if Craig Brown was ever approached by Hibs or did his agent not bother approaching Hibs like he did with Aberdeen. In short do you knowfor sure he wouldn't have been or was interested? Do you know if interference from above was his beef as you seem to be suggesting?

ScottB
08-01-2011, 12:08 AM
It's worth remembering, as people sit here complaining about hiring whatever manager or signing whichever player, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I can remember plenty threads wanting Collins as boss, then Mixu and then Hughes, ditto threads demanding we sign players like Colin Nish!

Other than CC, who came out of leftfield, I would suggest the 3 previous managers were the ones the fans wanted. Maybe that was the Boards mistake, if they factored fan opinion into things.

Secondly, folk saying 'oh we should have hired a better / more experienced manager' do we know if such a candidate ever applied for the job each time? You can only hire the best of the guys who want the job, and a large amount of the fanbase at least believed that Collins / Mixu / Hughes were the right guy for the job at the time.

As I say, hindsight is a wonderful thing!

BEEJ
08-01-2011, 10:36 AM
Secondly, folk saying 'oh we should have hired a better / more experienced manager' do we know if such a candidate ever applied for the job each time? You can only hire the best of the guys who want the job, and a large amount of the fanbase at least believed that Collins / Mixu / Hughes were the right guy for the job at the time.

As I say, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
There is such a thing as head-hunting. Selecting an appropriate candidate or candidates according to their experience and reported qualities and going after them. Means that you're not simply at the mercy of who decides to apply for the job. It is widely used for very senior posts in most walks of life.

It may be indeed that CC was hired that way this time. :dunno:

As for the attitudes of the fanbase, the Board ought not to factor that in. The Sauzee experience alone should have been enough for them to learn not to lend much credence to what we think. I'd be surprised if they do, unless a 'fans favourite' happens to be a bit more affordable than some of the alternatives.

We have shown on here time and time again that our knowledge of who's out there as potential managers is extremely limited. Therefore we as supporters default to what we know, which invariably means that calls for former players in coaching roles very quickly build up a head of steam.

I can't honestly believe that RP and co. fall victim to that; just as I can't believe that it's uniquely 'our fault' that previous managers were 'sacked', as some would maintain.

Cropley10
08-01-2011, 10:46 AM
It's worth remembering, as people sit here complaining about hiring whatever manager or signing whichever player, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I can remember plenty threads wanting Collins as boss, then Mixu and then Hughes, ditto threads demanding we sign players like Colin Nish!

Other than CC, who came out of leftfield, I would suggest the 3 previous managers were the ones the fans wanted. Maybe that was the Boards mistake, if they factored fan opinion into things.

Secondly, folk saying 'oh we should have hired a better / more experienced manager' do we know if such a candidate ever applied for the job each time? You can only hire the best of the guys who want the job, and a large amount of the fanbase at least believed that Collins / Mixu / Hughes were the right guy for the job at the time.

As I say, hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I don't think that it's possible to say that " a large amount of the fanbase at least believed that Collins / Mixu / Hughes were the right guy for the job at the time". Hibs.net is not the Hibs fanbase IMHO.

Cropley10
08-01-2011, 10:52 AM
Smurf I don't know any mire than you do about goings on at ER. Here's a couple of possible scenarios for you about your questions.
In any work place the complaints proceedure goes up the the live management. Do you know if the players had approached JC with their grievance. If they did and it wasn't dealt with properly their next port of call would be the next person up the line. That would be RP.
Do you also know for sure if Craig Brown was ever approached by Hibs or did his agent not bother approaching Hibs like he did with Aberdeen. In short do you knowfor sure he wouldn't have been or was interested? Do you know if interference from above was his beef as you seem to be suggesting?

Fair point Lex, but Jones could have met with Petrie. They didn't all need to go to his house, and that's not what would happen in any typical work scenario. It was the wrong thing to do, no question. JD wasn't doing anything contractually or legally wrong - what exactly were their grounds for complaint?

I know Petrie lives in East Lothian, but I do find it odd that he's always knocking about at East Mains, how many other Clubs have their Chairman around the place all day. It's fairly obvious he's a constant presence, and very much the man in charge.

As for Pa Broon, he said himself he was approached about the Hibs job.

ScottB
08-01-2011, 01:07 PM
There is such a thing as head-hunting. Selecting an appropriate candidate or candidates according to their experience and reported qualities and going after them. Means that you're not simply at the mercy of who decides to apply for the job. It is widely used for very senior posts in most walks of life.

It may be indeed that CC was hired that way this time. :dunno:

As for the attitudes of the fanbase, the Board ought not to factor that in. The Sauzee experience alone should have been enough for them to learn not to lend much credence to what we think. I'd be surprised if they do, unless a 'fans favourite' happens to be a bit more affordable than some of the alternatives.

We have shown on here time and time again that our knowledge of who's out there as potential managers is extremely limited. Therefore we as supporters default to what we know, which invariably means that calls for former players in coaching roles very quickly build up a head of steam.

I can't honestly believe that RP and co. fall victim to that; just as I can't believe that it's uniquely 'our fault' that previous managers were 'sacked', as some would maintain.

What I said still applies, we could head hunt Sir Alex Ferguson himself, doesn't mean he'd want the job! How do we know the Board didn't approach candidates? Certainly I would imagine the club went after Derek Adams at least.


I don't think that it's possible to say that " a large amount of the fanbase at least believed that Collins / Mixu / Hughes were the right guy for the job at the time". Hibs.net is not the Hibs fanbase IMHO.

I wasn't just referring to Hibs.net and I stand by the statement, unless you're claiming that most of the fanbase opposed the appointment of those 3?

Cropley10
08-01-2011, 01:13 PM
What I said still applies, we could head hunt Sir Alex Ferguson himself, doesn't mean he'd want the job! How do we know the Board didn't approach candidates? Certainly I would imagine the club went after Derek Adams at least.



I wasn't just referring to Hibs.net and I stand by the statement, unless you're claiming that most of the fanbase opposed the appointment of those 3?

I think it's disingenuous to say - most Hibs fans - I'm not saying that most didn't oppose them either, but because you don't oppose it doesn't mean you support.

The bottom line is Scott, in any business, the hiring manager, in this case, Petrie, stands or falls by his appointments. That is what being at the top means. The buck stops with you.

ScottB
08-01-2011, 01:32 PM
I think it's disingenuous to say - most Hibs fans - I'm not saying that most didn't oppose them either, but because you don't oppose it doesn't mean you support.

The bottom line is Scott, in any business, the hiring manager, in this case, Petrie, stands or falls by his appointments. That is what being at the top means. The buck stops with you.

True, and has was said by others before, the record goes...

Collins - Cup Win
Mixu - Back to back top 6 finishes
Hughes - European Qualification

It's not like we've been trapped in the bottom 6 for years on end, and while it's not ideal to have changed manager so often, and some of the player buys haven't been good, I wouldn't categorize any of them as disastrous appointments.

Cropley10
08-01-2011, 01:35 PM
True, and has was said by others before, the record goes...

Collins - Cup Win
Mixu - Back to back top 6 finishes
Hughes - European Qualification

It's not like we've been trapped in the bottom 6 for years on end, and while it's not ideal to have changed manager so often, and some of the player buys haven't been good, I wouldn't categorize any of them as disastrous appointments.

Half full v half empty I suppose. You're right not disastrous,but we didn't half watch some utter dross under all three of those though!

ScottB
08-01-2011, 01:38 PM
Half full v half empty I suppose. You're right not disastrous,but we didn't half watch some utter dross under all three of those though!

Indeed we did! But conversely, while stuff was prettier to watch under Mowbray, results weren't much different.

I'd much rather be watching a free flowing Mowbray side, but I suspect those days are gone and not coming back, unless we manage to produce another similarly talented crop of youngsters again one day!