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leithsansiro
02-01-2011, 09:37 AM
Okay, let's get it out of the way first - the game at Tynecastle was appalling and Hibs were lucky not to have been properly turned over. Let's be grateful for that.

Anyway, my point is as follows. When Hearts publish their accounts and tally up how much debt their actually in, how many of us would trade our current predicament for, ahem, theirs?

What's worse; a poor team on the pitch or the ever-present threat of financial mismanagement? Would people be willing for Hibs to run themselves int the ground financially to compete with Hearts/etc?

Beefster
02-01-2011, 09:49 AM
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. They can sensibly invest a bit more in the team without bankrupting us.

In their defence, the Board have done that in the last few years. It's been piss-poor buys by the managers that have been the problem.

blackpoolhibs
02-01-2011, 09:56 AM
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. They can sensibly invest a bit more in the team without bankrupting us.

In their defence, the Board have done that in the last few years. It's been piss-poor buys by the managers that have been the problem.

:top marks I agree, we are losing money, £2m a year I've seen mentioned. Where is this extra money coming from? Can someone point me in the direction where we are not investing the 4th largest amount of money in terms of wages in the SPL.

Our manager needs to be better at spotting new signings than they have been in the past. They also have to be better at blending these players into a team. Others do it on less than we spend, go figure that out.

Kaiser1962
02-01-2011, 10:07 AM
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. They can sensibly invest a bit more in the team without bankrupting us.

In their defence, the Board have done that in the last few years. It's been piss-poor buys by the managers that have been the problem.

Absolutely. I dont think De Graff will have come cheap and he has been disappointing given his career. While we are wondering why he was signed I bet he's wondering the same right now. We have a decent budget to spend but it needs to be spent better.

Kaiser1962
02-01-2011, 10:09 AM
:top marks I agree, we are losing money, £2m a year I've seen mentioned. Where is this extra money coming from? Can someone point me in the direction where we are not investing the 4th largest amount of money in terms of wages in the SPL.

Our manager needs to be better at spotting new signings than they have been in the past. They also have to be better at blending these players into a team. Others do it on less than we spend, go figure that out.

I think we appear to have bought players that were available to us and then trying to fit them in rather than first determining what job they could do before they signed.

euro Hibby
02-01-2011, 10:14 AM
There are alot of players available today. If rangers can-t afford to splash the cash with their fan base, we certainly can-t. Our club is a small club and we need then to work and plan accordingly.

Green_one
02-01-2011, 10:20 AM
We need to get better buys and a smaller squad

The problem with simply splashing the cash is that there are a lot of very ordinary players who are expensive. Look at Hearts and some of their disasters (Nadi being just one of a long list).

This is where we see if CC has good contacts and a good nose. Must also be ruthless.

blackpoolhibs
02-01-2011, 10:23 AM
I think we appear to have bought players that were available to us and then trying to fit them in rather than first determining what job they could do before they signed.

I don't know if thats true or not, although Hughes chased Hart for 6 months it seems, and thats not worked out. Just one example of getting a player in, who's clearly not good enough. Mixu did it (Johansson), as did Collins (O'Brien).

Our manager needs to be getting better quality in, especially with the marquee signings, and maybe even more importantly with the Cheaper options. Less Joe Keenans, and more Ivan Sproules.

Peevemor
02-01-2011, 10:57 AM
I don't know if thats true or not, although Hughes chased Hart for 6 months it seems, and thats not worked out. Just one example of getting a player in, who's clearly not good enough. Mixu did it (Johansson), as did Collins (O'Brien).

Our manager needs to be getting better quality in, especially with the marquee signings, and maybe even more importantly with the Cheaper options. Less Joe Keenans, and more Ivan Sproules.

That would be a sign of intent. :agree:

BEEJ
02-01-2011, 11:15 AM
Our manager needs to be better at spotting new signings than they have been in the past. They also have to be better at blending these players into a team. Others do it on less than we spend, go figure that out.
:agree: That's a succinct summary of the club's biggest problem in the last few years and the key reason for our current predicament.


Absolutely. I dont think De Graff will have come cheap and he has been disappointing given his career.
Massively.

Another player whose career has not been helped by injury and whose best days are behind him.

col02
02-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Our signing policy the past few years has been all wrong imho. The one thing Mowbray did quite well was sign players with potential but as yet unproven at first team level. Admittedly he had better quality players already at the club which allowed more room to gamble but with things the way they are there must be some good quality young players out there who would improve the current Hibs squad. Given the size of our backroom staff now I would expect them to be covering a lot of ground scouting players that would come relatively cheap but also who may yield a transfer fee at some point in the future.

hibiedude
02-01-2011, 11:36 AM
You seem to have got it round the wrong way

IF the product on the field is poor no one will buy it or want to watch it then you face financial ruin.

Football is like any other business the product you’re trying to sell must be of a good standard or no one will buy.

Why must we buy ourselves out of this mess- has our youth policy crashed as well because we have had great players coming through this route

grunt
02-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Can someone point me in the direction where we are not investing the 4th largest amount of money in terms of wages in the SPL.

Not sure if this is what you meant - also please note that this information is fairly old, relating to financial year ends in 2009. Hmm, it's not very clear but it shows Hibs with 4% of the wages spend for the SPL - less than Rangers, Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen, and on a level with Kilmarnock.

Link is here: http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spl/wages.htm

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spl/img35.jpg

Sas_The_Hibby
02-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Whilst Hearts are obviously streets ahead of us on the pitch at the present, splashing the cash to (probably) finish third isn't worth it IMO, particularly in their allegedly perilous financial situation. It might be worth it if it won you the league but I doubt that's going to happen.

Having said that, the money we have spent on the playing side of things seems to have been very badly invested, to put it mildly.

Hearts, presumably with the third biggest SPL wage bill, in third place.
Hibs, presumably with the fourth biggest SPL wage bill, in tenth place (on goal difference!).

It doesn't look good and hasn't done so for a number of seasons now.

Vini1875
02-01-2011, 12:33 PM
I think our policy has been correct so far. Bringing through young talent and selling on which should allow for investment. So far we have invested in bricks and mortar. We should now be in a position to bring through the likes of Byrne, Booth, Welsh etc along with already having Wotherspoon and Hanlon. Hopefully CC can play/find some others so that as we sell we can invest in the team.

We have to have a long term strategy by the board where they can tell the manager they want as many of our younger players coming through as possible and they, the board have to ensure that they have everything set up to hoover up all the best young talent in Scotland.

Changing Managers has cost us dearly and gambling on aging pros has cost us. No one can convince me that we would have lost any more games by playing our younger hungrier players.

blackpoolhibs
02-01-2011, 12:41 PM
I think our policy has been correct so far. Bringing through young talent and selling on which should allow for investment. So far we have invested in bricks and mortar. We should now be in a position to bring through the likes of Byrne, Booth, Welsh etc along with already having Wotherspoon and Hanlon. Hopefully CC can play/find some others so that as we sell we can invest in the team.

We have to have a long term strategy by the board where they can tell the manager they want as many of our younger players coming through as possible and they, the board have to ensure that they have everything set up to hoover up all the best young talent in Scotland.

Changing Managers has cost us dearly and gambling on aging pros has cost us. No one can convince me that we would have lost any more games by playing our younger hungrier players.

If the manager had not been given the money to spend on these aging pro's, and i am struggling to think who you actually mean here? If whoever was in charge spent nothing, and just went with the kids, this board would be in meltdown with page after page of Petrie GTF, why are you not backing the manager?

grunt
02-01-2011, 01:05 PM
(2009) ... less than Rangers, Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen, and on a level with Kilmarnock. Checked the 2010 figures, when Aberdeen slashed their wages costs from £5.8m in 2009 to £4.6m in 2010. In the same period ours went from £4.6m to £4.8m. At 68% of turnover, it looks as though we have the fourth highest wages costs in the SPL.

clerriehibs
02-01-2011, 01:08 PM
Okay, let's get it out of the way first - the game at Tynecastle was appalling and Hibs were lucky not to have been properly turned over. Let's be grateful for that.

Anyway, my point is as follows. When Hearts publish their accounts and tally up how much debt their actually in, how many of us would trade our current predicament for, ahem, theirs?

What's worse; a poor team on the pitch or the ever-present threat of financial mismanagement? Would people be willing for Hibs to run themselves int the ground financially to compete with Hearts/etc?

No; you want to end up like Dundee?

The_Todd
02-01-2011, 01:18 PM
Before asking if we should even think about matching Hearts spending, lets remember we simply cannot.

Not because they're a super huge club, but because thier parent company is a bank, and thanks to said bank being run by a submarine commander with a screw loose, Hearts have access to large overdrafts and loans with favourable repayment options which we don't. In the current climate we can't just waltz into the local RBS and ask for a £40m loan so we can import some overplayed footballers for a season or two. Not going to happen.

We can and should be spending more than we are, but it's never going to be much more.

Kaiser1962
02-01-2011, 01:22 PM
Not sure if this is what you meant - also please note that this information is fairly old, relating to financial year ends in 2009. Hmm, it's not very clear but it shows Hibs with 4% of the wages spend for the SPL - less than Rangers, Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen, and on a level with Kilmarnock.

Link is here: http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spl/wages.htm

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spl/img35.jpg

I'm not sure about that site Grunt as it seems to interpret the published accounts im a general way. However, what is interesting is that, four out of those five clubs you named are, to all intents and purposes, technically insolvent.

Cropley10
02-01-2011, 02:01 PM
I'm not sure about that site Grunt as it seems to interpret the published accounts im a general way. However, what is interesting is that, four out of those five clubs you named are, to all intents and purposes, technically insolvent.

Yet technically ahead of us in the League.

It doesn't seem to do any other team any harm. Is Rod more interested in League points or making a profit?

Sir David Gray
02-01-2011, 02:07 PM
It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. They can sensibly invest a bit more in the team without bankrupting us.

In their defence, the Board have done that in the last few years. It's been piss-poor buys by the managers that have been the problem.

:agree: I think the board has backed our managers in recent years and it's our managers who have been guilty of wasting that money on poor signings. Having said that, the board has appointed those managers and if things don't work out with Calderwood, serious questions should be asked of the board.

In recent years we have signed;

Alan O'Brien-OK, not a first team pick at Newcastle but he was an internationalist with Ireland and came highly rated. Would have been a relatively expensive signing for Hibs. Absolute disaster with us.

Yves Makalambay-Again, not a first team pick at Chelsea but came highly rated and wouldn't have come cheaply. Not the best signing in the world for Hibs.

Michael Hart-Wouldn't have been too expensive but he was highly rated at Aberdeen and had been playing at quite a high level with Preston. Hasn't done too well with Hibs so far.

Liam Miller-One of our highest profile signings for years. Played in the Champions League with Celtic and Manchester Utd, had been playing in the Championship with QPR and Leeds and is an Irish internationalist as well. Wouldn't have been a cheap signing for Hibs. Hasn't been anywhere near consistent enough in a Hibs shirt.

Anthony Stokes-Another high profile signing and was a success with the club but his time with Hibs came to an abrupt end and he was punted off to Celtic after one good season. He also wouldn't have been a cheap signing and is another Irish internationalist.

Edwin de Graaf-Came highly rated and had a good career in the Dutch top flight, where he was the captain of his previous side. Hughes was very excited when he signed him but, so far, he has been a disaster.

With the financial capabilities that we have at the club, we are underachieving on a massive scale and where we are at the moment is completely unacceptable. However, the board is not to blame for providing a lack of support to our managers. What they will, and should, be blamed for is if Colin Calderwood ends up being a failure as well as that would be three managers in a row that would have been failures in the space of a couple of years and if that happens, the board should be held accountable for that alone.

Kaiser1962
02-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Yet technically ahead of us in the League.

It doesn't seem to do any other team any harm. Is Rod more interested in League points or making a profit?

Your right Cropley10 it dosent and thats what mystifies me most. We dont agree on this Cropley10 and never have as I believe that we need to be on a sound financial footing and build from there but its hard to argue that point when other teams dont adhere to normal financial rules.

blindsummit
02-01-2011, 02:10 PM
That would be a sign of intent. :agree:

Now is the winter of our discount tent :greengrin

The Harp
02-01-2011, 02:38 PM
IMO, the present squad is at least as good as the teams immediately above us. I've certainly seen worse Hibs squads achieve a 'respectable' position in the league over the years. The failure for me is the inability of the last few Hibs managers to get the best out of them. Results for Calderwood so far have been disappointing, however, if the Board have confidence in their choice of manager, they'll now need to provide him with the cash to get new blood in. This policy of selling off any player for whom a significant offer comes in and replacing them with mediocre, or on-loan players, clearly hasn't worked.
These are certainly not good times to be a Hibs supporter especially wi' the Yams, all of a sudden, flying high.

ScottB
02-01-2011, 02:39 PM
AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm bloody sick of this, but here it is again.

MORE MONEY DOES NOT GUARANTEE BETTER PLAYERS.

If it did every season the SPL would finish Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, end of. It's an utter nonsense to blame our problems on the amount we spend on players.

How much have ICT spent on players in the last year? How much did Mixu spend to turn Killie from relegation candidates into a top 6 side? How much did it cost Dundee United to build a side that won the Scottish Cup? I bet all three have probably spent less together on new players than we have in the last few years. But then everyone seems to love this idea that we haven't spent a bean.

Our more extravagant signings have already been listed in this thread, and Riordan and Murray aside, the lot of them have almost to a man been wastes of money.


Hearts are pouring money down the drain, does anybody think Barr or Kyle are worth the £10k a week or so Hearts are paying them? No. Both could have been had for far less than Hearts offered. The question should not be us stupidly trying to spend as much as Hearts, it should be Hearts asking whether or not their vastly higher wage bill compared to the rest of us is worth it.

Where in the league did Hearts and their oh so incredible wage budget finish in the league last year and what did they win?

leithsansiro
02-01-2011, 03:44 PM
AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm bloody sick of this, but here it is again.

MORE MONEY DOES NOT GUARANTEE BETTER PLAYERS.

If it did every season the SPL would finish Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, end of. It's an utter nonsense to blame our problems on the amount we spend on players.

How much have ICT spent on players in the last year? How much did Mixu spend to turn Killie from relegation candidates into a top 6 side? How much did it cost Dundee United to build a side that won the Scottish Cup? I bet all three have probably spent less together on new players than we have in the last few years. But then everyone seems to love this idea that we haven't spent a bean.

Our more extravagant signings have already been listed in this thread, and Riordan and Murray aside, the lot of them have almost to a man been wastes of money.


Hearts are pouring money down the drain, does anybody think Barr or Kyle are worth the £10k a week or so Hearts are paying them? No. Both could have been had for far less than Hearts offered. The question should not be us stupidly trying to spend as much as Hearts, it should be Hearts asking whether or not their vastly higher wage bill compared to the rest of us is worth it.

Where in the league did Hearts and their oh so incredible wage budget finish in the league last year and what did they win?

:top marks

I never said money buys success, and I don't believe it is the road we should go down. I was just wanted to put to bed all the nonsense that people seem to spout on here about the board spending much more on the playing staff.

yekimevol
02-01-2011, 04:52 PM
what we want is to see cash put into the squad. were not talking crazy things like accross the town. we want the right management team brought in (done imho). now all we want to see is the current under achievering losers out and a solid squad on the pitch. if teams with smaller budgets like cally and motherwell can, surely we can !!!!

ekhibee
02-01-2011, 05:59 PM
I think it's quite a difficult subject to comment on actually. People on here are using Mixu as an example of one of the managers that made wrong choices whilst here, but he helped Cowdenbeath to get promoted, took his Finnish side into the UEFA or Europa Cup, and seems to have Kilmarnock playing good football. Not too much wrong there, so why did he fail at Hibs? Collins ended up buying all sorts of second choices when he was manager, players he hadn't originally intended on buying, why? Even Blobby, did a great job at Kilmarnock, won them a cup I think, and yet rubbish at Hibs. It would be too easy to blame the board on here, whether it's lack of investment or not, but it would appear different managers have been promised, or at least been led to believe that more funds would be available. I'm sorry but nobody on here is going to convince me that the likes of Joe Keenan was the managers first choice of player to buy, or for that matter some of the players playing in the first team right now. I don't know the answer, but whereas I think the managers are certainly not blameless, they are certainly not the only ones to blame. It's easy to get drawn into exageration, about how good our infrastructure is, or how bad the team is, but sadly I can't see this team progressing without quite a lot more investment, unless there are a brilliant crop of youngsters champing at the bit to get in to the 1st team. Just my thoughts, I'm not saying that's necessarily the answer, but as has been mentioned before, Hearts are still here, still a powerful team, and still, at the moment anyway, fairly strong challengers for the old firm, as they have been in the past,having been the only team to split them in recent years. They have overspent, which under normal circumstances would put them in a precarious financial situation, but they are owned by a bank. In my opinion we don't need to compete with them financially, but we do need to spend more than we are on the team at the present moment, unless the board come up with some other reasons to further strengthen the infrastructure in some way.

ancient hibee
02-01-2011, 06:56 PM
Hearts are where they are in the league thanks to a player that cost them sweeties and to whom they pay buttons.As he goes off the boil(as he is starting to do)so will they.