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NAE NOOKIE
28-12-2010, 12:00 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

MB62
28-12-2010, 12:10 PM
That does seem to be the case.

Since90+2
28-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Untouchable in what way?

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 12:13 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

I dont think he ever wanted to be the owner and until someone comes along with the resources to take over as owner then pretty much, yes.

However I, for one at least, am quite happy with him as owner.

LancashireHibby
28-12-2010, 12:15 PM
If someone came in with a huge wad of cash then I'm sure he'd have to think about it, but I suspect that's not exactly the motive behind your posting.

Dirkster23
28-12-2010, 12:17 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

STF? what do you think he's done wrong?!?

I think we've a lot more to thank him for than moan about.

Andy74
28-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Club still here. Stadium complete. Training centre built.

From where we were to where we are now only a fool would argue against the contribution of the owner.

Unless he is supposed to be playing as a creative midfielder with pace?

ScottB
28-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

Right, what exactly is everyones (well, by that I mean those flapping their gums) problem with Sir Tom?

What exactly are they looking for from an owner? What has he done that should be complained about?

He saved this club, never forget that. He never promised to pump in millions of pounds for transfer fees, nor should he. His intention was for the club to support itself, the only long term, viable solution for an SPL club.

This is the SPL, nobody is going to buy a club here out with the Old Firm and throw money at it without ulterior motives. At the end of the day, give me Sir Tom Farmer over Vladimir Romanov any and every day of the week.

Since90+2
28-12-2010, 12:26 PM
Right, what exactly is everyones (well, by that I mean those flapping their gums) problem with Sir Tom?

What exactly are they looking for from an owner? What has he done that should be complained about?

He saved this club, never forget that. He never promised to pump in millions of pounds for transfer fees, nor should he. His intention was for the club to support itself, the only long term, viable solution for an SPL club.

This is the SPL, nobody is going to buy a club here out with the Old Firm and throw money at it without ulterior motives. At the end of the day, give me Sir Tom Farmer over Vladimir Romanov any and every day of the week.

Going by the replies in this thread alone I woudnt say everyone has a problem with Sir Tom and most Hibees probably back and respect the man.

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 12:26 PM
Club still here. Stadium complete. Training centre built.

From where we were to where we are now only a fool would argue against the contribution of the owner.

Unless he is supposed to be playing as a creative midfielder with pace?

Great contribution, agreed and job done. Be very interesting to see if the same board have what it takes to produce on the football side from now until the end of their tenure.
What's your views on this part of the equation.

Ps, STF would be better than Rankin

frazeHFC
28-12-2010, 12:29 PM
Without him we would be nowhere. Great owner, and now that the Ground and Facilities are built hopefully when we get back some of the cash spent on building them, we can focus on buying good players.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Going by the replies in this thread alone I woudnt say everyone has a problem with Sir Tom and most Hibees probably back and respect the man.

Hence the bit in the brackets after the bit you highlighted...

chrisski33
28-12-2010, 01:05 PM
yeah he saved us. yeah we have a great stadium and training ground but why have we got a crap team? tf cud put his hands in his deep pockets and buy sum good players

DarlingtonHibee
28-12-2010, 01:09 PM
yeah he saved us. yeah we have a great stadium and training ground but why have we got a crap team? tf cud put his hands in his deep pockets and buy sum good players

Why should he - why don't you ?

JE89
28-12-2010, 01:13 PM
yeah he saved us. yeah we have a great stadium and training ground but why have we got a crap team? tf cud put his hands in his deep pockets and buy sum good players

Why should he? Why don't you send Hibs some of your hard earned cash for nothing in return?

Folk that have a go at Sir Tom are deluded. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't be here.

Hibee Daz
28-12-2010, 02:43 PM
I sincerely appreciate everything STF has done for Hibs.

I will however ask the all important question why if you are the owner of a Football Club, would you not endeavor to make that Football Club flourish where it matters most, on the pitch?

Mikeystewart
28-12-2010, 03:10 PM
we could be fan owned with an elected representative like barca, then the only one to blame would be the fans.

this blame culture at easter road is sickening:jamboak:

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 03:15 PM
yeah he saved us. yeah we have a great stadium and training ground but why have we got a crap team? tf cud put his hands in his deep pockets and buy sum good players

Wind up?

Lago
28-12-2010, 03:16 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

Would you rather we had some one like Blackburn's chicken farmers as owners?

ScottB
28-12-2010, 03:27 PM
I sincerely appreciate everything STF has done for Hibs.

I will however ask the all important question why if you are the owner of a Football Club, would you not endeavor to make that Football Club flourish where it matters most, on the pitch?

He bought the club to save it for Leith, he has never said anything different, so why should anyone be surprised / annoyed that he doesn't chuck his money at the club to waste on players?

Do you not get that from a business point of view (and that is what he is best at, and is what is best for the club long term) he has led us to a point of flourishing? Since he bought the club we have rebuilt the stadium, built the training ground and brought debt back under control twice. I say twice, because the second period of that was a result of the last time the club tried to 'speculate to accumulate' under McLeish, how much did we win then exactly?

The club has to live within its means, Sir Tom is a business man, he isn't going to sanction a policy that has us spending way beyond what we bring in, like our neighbours in Gorgie do, nor should he. And even if he did, what happens when one day, he pops his clogs? We'd be up the creek without a paddle.

Hibee Daz
28-12-2010, 04:20 PM
He bought the club to save it for Leith, he has never said anything different, so why should anyone be surprised / annoyed that he doesn't chuck his money at the club to waste on players?

Do you not get that from a business point of view (and that is what he is best at, and is what is best for the club long term) he has led us to a point of flourishing? Since he bought the club we have rebuilt the stadium, built the training ground and brought debt back under control twice. I say twice, because the second period of that was a result of the last time the club tried to 'speculate to accumulate' under McLeish, how much did we win then exactly?

The club has to live within its means, Sir Tom is a business man, he isn't going to sanction a policy that has us spending way beyond what we bring in, like our neighbours in Gorgie do, nor should he. And even if he did, what happens when one day, he pops his clogs? We'd be up the creek without a paddle.

Why increase the stadiums capacity spending millions to do so, when there is absolutely no demand for it?
Attendances are only going to drop so long as the product on the pitch keeps diminishing. That means less gate/ST revenue and less retail revenue also, as folk aren't going to go to the club store and get some huddys name on the back of a fitba top!

The main purpose of a football club is to supply their customers with sporting entertainment and unfortunately for us the customer this has been sadly lacking for a while now. I'm not unrealistic I don't expect us to spend millions on supposed superstars, leaving us right in the **** financially, but I would like us to have a team that can compete with every team out with the infirm every season!

ScottB
28-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Why increase the stadiums capacity spending millions to do so, when there is absolutely no demand for it?
Attendances are only going to drop so long as the product on the pitch keeps diminishing. That means less gate/ST revenue and less retail revenue also, as folk aren't going to go to the club store and get some huddys name on the back of a fitba top!

The main purpose of a football club is to supply their customers with sporting entertainment and unfortunately for us the customer this has been sadly lacking for a while now. I'm not unrealistic I don't expect us to spend millions on supposed superstars, leaving us right in the **** financially, but I would like us to have a team that can compete with every team out with the infirm every season!

The stand was only built this year because the recession made it much cheaper than projected to do so, in the long term building it now will save cash, freeing up more money for players later.

People also ignore that we have spent more cash on players in the last few years than any SPL club outside of the Old Firm and Hearts, cash that produced the current side of world beaters. More cash spent doesn't mean a better side.

Hibee Daz
28-12-2010, 04:49 PM
The stand was only built this year because the recession made it much cheaper than projected to do so, in the long term building it now will save cash, freeing up more money for players later.

The stand was only built now because the planning permission was due to run out and would have been unlikely to be renewed due to opposing residents in the neighboring flats! I find it hard to believe that it was cheaper to build now as at time it was due to be built the price of steel was through the roof. (Pardon the pun)

People also ignore that we have spent more cash on players in the last few years than any SPL club outside of the Old Firm and Hearts, cash that produced the current side of world beaters. More cash spent doesn't mean a better side.

Maybe if our board spent more money on a top class scouting system then we might get somewhere, rather than giving hapless managers carte blanche to sign over-rated players and then give them rediculous salaries too boot.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Maybe if our board spent more money on a top class scouting system then we might get somewhere, rather than giving hapless managers carte blanche to sign over-rated players and then give them rediculous salaries too boot.

There were quotes from the Board saying that the per seat cost was far below initial projections, can't be bothered looking for them, but they were from the AGM. Planning permission was of course also an issue, so it was indeed the best time to build the stand.

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 05:09 PM
we could be fan owned with an elected representative like barca, then the only one to blame would be the fans.

this blame culture at easter road is sickening:jamboak:

Said elected representative would then find himself completely out of his depth and easily picked off in any boardroom dispute. Mind you it would give him a feeling of adequacy, not to mention a seat on the team bus and a nice smart blazer as well.

Be honest, you just have to read the short termist, *****witted posts on this forum to see that fans want many different things and any body that claims to represent them would be an absolute joke.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 05:11 PM
There are obviously people that dont and I give up. There are none so blind as them that shall not see. If we signed Lionel Messi this board would be moaning that he was too wee.


He bought the club to save it for Leith, he has never said anything different, so why should anyone be surprised / annoyed that he doesn't chuck his money at the club to waste on players?

Do you not get that from a business point of view (and that is what he is best at, and is what is best for the club long term) he has led us to a point of flourishing? Since he bought the club we have rebuilt the stadium, built the training ground and brought debt back under control twice. I say twice, because the second period of that was a result of the last time the club tried to 'speculate to accumulate' under McLeish, how much did we win then exactly?

The club has to live within its means, Sir Tom is a business man, he isn't going to sanction a policy that has us spending way beyond what we bring in, like our neighbours in Gorgie do, nor should he. And even if he did, what happens when one day, he pops his clogs? We'd be up the creek without a paddle.

Hibee Daz
28-12-2010, 05:22 PM
There were quotes from the Board saying that the per seat cost was far below initial projections, can't be bothered looking for them, but they were from the AGM. Planning permission was of course also an issue, so it was indeed the best time to build the stand.

How was it a good time to build, sadly even on the first day of the season when it was the New Easts grand opening against der hun, we still couldn't manage a sell out crowd and we never will so long as the product on the park is sub-standard.
I would like to see the boards projections on when we're liable too see a better class of player and a sell out crowd to clear the cobwebs in our currently pointless new stand?
When andIF the day comes that we regularly pack oot ER, I will be delighted to stand corrected, until then I will maintain that spending millions on a stand that never gets used too its full capacity is a waste of money and time IMO.

smurf
28-12-2010, 05:34 PM
No reason at all why he should be.

He saved us by playing playing a significant role in buying shares in that horrible 1990 summer. but let's not forget others in 1991 tried to buy the club. Sir Tom wasn't forced into buying the club. I'm not saying the other options were better but there were other options...

The Silver Fox
28-12-2010, 05:46 PM
History will clearly have STF as one of the most important people ever to become involved with the club. His legacy is more tangible than most.

Sammy7nil
28-12-2010, 06:44 PM
[QUOTE=ScottB;2670638]The stand was only built this year because the recession made it much cheaper than projected to do so, in the long term building it now will save cash, freeing up more money for players later.

That always makes me laugh, there will NEVER be a need for an increased capacity unless we get the team right. Building the stand has probably set us back years on pitch.

Dont get mewrong I know we needed the new stand and I fully support STF and recognise all he has done for the club, but to suggest we will have more to spend on the players in the future is laughable. I have heard this for 8 years as we sold off the family silver. They way things are going crowds are dropping faster then a whoooores draws we will be reducing our budget not increasing it.

There had to be a Plan to get it right on the Pitch ? If not the whole thing of the new stand is Pointless you would have been aswell knocking it down and leaving a hole in the ground.

Bad Martini
28-12-2010, 07:16 PM
Nae Tom Farmer, nae Hibs = ENDOF.

We can have the old debates about how some other rich/reliable/preferred by the banks/messiah would have come forward and done the same but thats aw pish - STF stepped up and saved our ass. Simples.

However, maybe we could ask him to to put in more cash though, pay £10k per week to anyone HE wants to sign (cleverly quadruppling our debt) whilst also picking the team, skudding the players in the jaw and feature on strictly come dancing to make a right rodger dunt of us) :aok: :rolleyes: :greengrin ...............topping it off by bringing in some Brazillian World Cup Stars and of course, delivering the European Cup within 5 years to the waiting 400,000 expectants :na na:

DarlingtonHibee
28-12-2010, 07:19 PM
No reason at all why he should be.

He saved us by playing playing a significant role in buying shares in that horrible 1990 summer. but let's not forget others in 1991 tried to buy the club. Sir Tom wasn't forced into buying the club. I'm not saying the other options were better but there were other options...

For the 999th time, the other option's were not better.

Sammy7nil
28-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Nae Tom Farmer, nae Hibs = ENDOF.

We can have the old debates about how some other rich/reliable/preferred by the banks/messiah would have come forward and done the same but thats aw pish - STF stepped up and saved our ass. Simples.

However, maybe we could ask him to to put in more cash though, pay £10k per week to anyone HE wants to sign (cleverly quadruppling our debt) whilst also picking the team, skudding the players in the jaw and feature on strictly come dancing to make a right rodger dunt of us) :aok: :rolleyes: :greengrin ...............topping it off by bringing in some Brazillian World Cup Stars and of course, delivering the European Cup within 5 years to the waiting 400,000 expectants :na na:

You forgot to add winning a couple of Scottish Cups and splitting the OF

sahib
28-12-2010, 07:58 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?

No - just his wallet.:greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 08:00 PM
For the 999th time, the other option's were not better.

Let's make that for the 1000th time, you had to be there to realise that Tom Farmer was the only choice we had, and even then we were lucky to get him.

down-the-slope
28-12-2010, 08:18 PM
in a word Yes

clerriehibs
28-12-2010, 08:24 PM
Instead of my usual long winded rant, just a simple question.

Is the owner of Hibernian Football Club untouchable ?


Yes.

Was it really worth posting?

Jack
28-12-2010, 08:31 PM
Let's make that for the 1000th time, you had to be there to realise that Tom Farmer was the only choice we had, and even then we were lucky to get him.

1001 used to clean a big, big carpet for less than half a crown!

7Hero
28-12-2010, 08:43 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

DarlingtonHibee
28-12-2010, 08:48 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

What a very sad post.....

Can you expand on your statement with evidence ?

Since90+2
28-12-2010, 08:49 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

I dont believe that its the driving force behind his involvement at Hibs.

Sammy7nil
28-12-2010, 08:49 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.


Yeah that is exactly why he got involved in a debt ridden club like Hibs in the first place it was ALL about Profit :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

7Hero
28-12-2010, 08:55 PM
Yeah that is exactly why he got involved in a debt ridden club like Hibs in the first place it was ALL about Profit :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

:not worth

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 08:59 PM
1001 used to clean a big, big carpet for less than half a crown!

It certainly did. :agree:


he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

:hmmm:

Yes and after 20 years he must be getting close. If only he'd had the sense to invest in something like land, or automobile repairs, then he'd be a millionaire many times over by now.

Instead this leech has bled our club dry, leaving us with a ramshackle stadium, annual flirtations with relegation and squillions of debt. Some say he personally paid Murdo MacLeods wages, but I think it was just a dodge to get a free seat at Hampden for the Skol Cup final.

Where do they find people like you?

Bad Martini
28-12-2010, 09:00 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

I hope he does. Given his reasons for getting involved and the outcome for us, I wouldnt grudge the man a bolt.....:agree:

Jack
28-12-2010, 09:14 PM
he will make a nice profit one day, that im afraid is why he is in the business of football.

Was it a billion pounds he hit Ford for when he sold Kwik Fit?
.
He must be really desperate for the loose change profit he'd make out of Hibs.

Criswell
28-12-2010, 09:27 PM
Club still here. Stadium complete. Training centre built.

From where we were to where we are now only a fool would argue against the contribution of the owner.

Unless he is supposed to be playing as a creative midfielder with pace?

What contribution is that exactly? As far as I understand it, and no doubt will be corrected if I'm wrong, the new stands and East Mains are being financed through mortgages being paid for by the Football Club. That is, in reality, by us the supporters.

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 10:12 PM
He's already made a profit from his involvement with Hibs.

Has he sorted Deek out with a nice set of tyres for his Range Rover?

DarlingtonHibee
28-12-2010, 10:35 PM
He's already made a profit from his involvement with Hibs.

Evidence please ? - aah, thought not...:confused:

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 10:51 PM
He might have done that as well.

Shocks?

Brake pads?

A wee seat on the bus to Lourdes?

NAE NOOKIE
28-12-2010, 11:17 PM
Yes.

Was it really worth posting?

Well, if it starts a reasonable debate then yes it was.

It is not open to debate that without STF Hibs probably would not have survived and I for one will never forget that.

What has been achieved off the park in the 20 years he has been in charge is nothing short of a miracle.

But now that these things are in place the only measuring stick left to judge the custodians of this club with is what happens on the park and the number of spectators at matches.

In that 20 years our performance on the park has been just acceptable. A club of Hibs size should look on two league cup wins and 3 other finals in that time as the very least that should be accepted. In the Mowbray era the average crowds were as good as I can remember, but since then the standard on the pitch has dropped and so have the crowds.

STF has made a huge difference to this club and enabled us to set up the infrastructure which clubs a lot bigger than us would envy.

But unless the product is there to at least 2 thirds fill our magnificent stadium on a regular basis and the fantastic training comlex improves the standard of our players he might as well have not bothered.

Given Hibs pretty average record on the park in that 20 years all I am asking is this. Is STF the sort of owner who can bring to the playing side the sort of improvement which has been so evident off the park?

If he is not, then what is wrong with thinking about the possibility of a new owner or owners who may be able to do that.

I dont think that is a disrespectfull question for a fan to ask. All clubs move on eventually from one era to the next. Just because the Yams, Newcastle etc etc have nightmares for owners doesnt mean to say that a new Hibs owner would be the same.

Kaiser1962
29-12-2010, 08:06 AM
I dont think its even a debate Bovril as we seem to split into two very distinct camps. Those that want any money, even to the point of going into further debt although the levels of debt acceptable vary, spent on improving the playing side and therefore it will increase the crowds and generate more income and so on. Or those, like me, who believe that we should build solid foundations first and then develop the playing side in line with monies available in a steady, but perhaps unspectacular manner. There does not appear to be much middle ground or room for debate between the two views.

Farmer owns Hibs lock stock and barrel. He didnt want to and probably still dosent to the point where he has both publicly and privately said that it was probably a mistake getting involved. He has always said that Hibs were for sale if the right person with the club and community at heart and the resources to take HFC forward made an approach. Contrary to what you've read elsewhere there was no other show in town. Rowland and Mercer chewed up Duff and Gray and spat them out and would have anyone else who get in their way.

He could very easily remove the small shareholders,left over from the Duff and Gray era, from the equation but dosent and therefore opens himself to the sort of questions both he and the board get at shareholder's meetings.

He is 70 years old now and probably asks himself every day why even bother.

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 09:11 AM
My info is that when you factor in the land that has been acquired around ER and Straiton,the complicated collection of inter connected companies and the profit achieved through the sale of the land and the profit in the pipeline when the remaining land,I'm told he'll be ahead of the game.

Your info is wrong.

The profit from the sale of any land that was owned by Hibs went to the club, Straiton (and any other land that has been "acquired around ER") has nothing to do with the club. A complicated collection of inter-connected companies does not produce a profit out of thin air, and the remining land has Easter Road Stadium built on it and is owned by The Hibernian Football Club Limited. Any profit from a future sale will go to them.

What Sir Tom Farmer owns is an investment that is (in theory) worth more than he paid for it - he wil only realise a profit on it if and when he sells it for that increased value. The increase in value is a product of the development of the club, the alternative being to leave it as it was in 1990.

greenlex
29-12-2010, 09:17 AM
**** me it's like groundhog day.

Kaiser1962
29-12-2010, 09:36 AM
The seperate companies were set up for a reason and that reason was to protect the football club at a time when it looked liked STF would have to take the FC into administration in order to remove David Rowland's shareholding and to protect the FC from it's creditors by safeguarding the asset's. As things improved over time the asset's in question were returned to the FC while some of the costs remained in the other companies.



I'm confident my info is correct.The separate companies are there for a reason.If all the deals were done under whatever company owns the club then that company would benefit from the sale of any land in the future.Counting the whole web of companies as one I believe he'll be ahead of the game.I don't have an issue with it.

CropleyWasGod
29-12-2010, 09:42 AM
I'm confident my info is correct.The separate companies are there for a reason.If all the deals were done under whatever company owns the club then that company would benefit from the sale of any land in the future.Counting the whole web of companies as one I believe he'll be ahead of the game.I don't have an issue with it.

He'll be ahead. Not "he is", which is what you are saying.

As CH says, he has an investment. As the advert says, investments can go up as well as down. If we get relegated, if the football world implodes, that investment is worth doodley squat. If it things continue as they are, he will make something.

Like you, I have no problem with it. But, be clear, he hasn't made anything yet.

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 09:45 AM
I'm confident my info is correct.The separate companies are there for a reason.If all the deals were done under whatever company owns the club then that company would benefit from the sale of any land in the future.Counting the whole web of companies as one I believe he'll be ahead of the game.I don't have an issue with it.

The only companies that concern the club are their immediate parent HFC Holdings Ltd and their ultimate parent Maidencraig Investments Ltd. Other companies within the group have nothing to do with Hibs. I repeat, the profit from the sale of Easter Road Stadium or the East Mains Training Centre would go to The Hibernian Football Club Ltd, and no-one else. The club has no interest in any other land.

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 10:06 AM
A friend of mine did an extremely in depth piece of investigative journalism for a national newspaper on this whole issue.Of course we can say the club has no other interest in any other property.It could have had though. As I say Farmer will be ahead of the game.

I'd like to see his report - can you provide a link? As it stands, your second and third sentences don't make much sense as far as Farmer making a profit goes. Re your fourth sentence, Farmer will be ahead of the game if he sells his investment at a profit - thats very different from:


He's already made a profit from his involvement with Hibs.

WindyMiller
29-12-2010, 10:10 AM
That should have been a :greengrin

Posted on JKB back in October;

Your right Le Chat. Our office accounts analysed them last winter (bad weather nothing to do) and, while they were a minefield of companies and the links between various companies was tenuous to say the least, everything came back(eventually) to the holding company to which Hibs owed £5m but also showed a cash balance of £1.5m. There was a link in there to Morston Securities but only, it appeared, as a backup to HFC Holdings in that the £5m was owed to them in return for shares in Morston (or some such thing). The £5m (which dosent accrue interest) would only be repaid should Hibs be sold, which is looking ever more unlikely.The stadium and training centre are owned by the football club but this, in turn, is owned by the Holding Company. There appear to be a number of companies between the football club and the holding company (latest of these is something called Maiden Craig (?)) but none of these companies appears to trade (other than Morston) and all business appears to done through the football club. Basically all the companies involved are either wholly owned by Tom Farmer or hybrids involving Farmer, Tom Harrison and Rod Petrie. There are no other shareholders listed (other than the muppets who bought shares originally in Hibs).

The conclusion was that Hibs are a (very) complicated set up but this is probably by design rather than accident and that Farmer knows exactly what he's doing. Their debts were basically wiped out by the land sale and all trading is done through the football club although, it appears, that if push came to shove, all assetts could be dispersed very quickly througout the group. One of the guys even suggested that Farmer was planning ahead for the day when he is no longer here (I believe he's past retirement age just now?)

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 10:18 AM
I shouldn't have said "He's already made a profit" - Although it's only telling the truth in advance :greengrin

Hence my comment that your info was wrong.

And it's only telling the truth in advance if he sells at a profit. And if he sells at a profit that means the club has improved.

And I know I shouldn't start sentences with 'and'.

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Posted on JKB back in October;

Your right Le Chat. Our office accounts analysed them last winter (bad weather nothing to do) and, while they were a minefield of companies and the links between various companies was tenuous to say the least, everything came back(eventually) to the holding company to which Hibs owed £5m but also showed a cash balance of £1.5m. There was a link in there to Morston Securities but only, it appeared, as a backup to HFC Holdings in that the £5m was owed to them in return for shares in Morston (or some such thing). The £5m (which dosent accrue interest) would only be repaid should Hibs be sold, which is looking ever more unlikely.The stadium and training centre are owned by the football club but this, in turn, is owned by the Holding Company. There appear to be a number of companies between the football club and the holding company (latest of these is something called Maiden Craig (?)) but none of these companies appears to trade (other than Morston) and all business appears to done through the football club. Basically all the companies involved are either wholly owned by Tom Farmer or hybrids involving Farmer, Tom Harrison and Rod Petrie. There are no other shareholders listed (other than the muppets who bought shares originally in Hibs).

The conclusion was that Hibs are a (very) complicated set up but this is probably by design rather than accident and that Farmer knows exactly what he's doing. Their debts were basically wiped out by the land sale and all trading is done through the football club although, it appears, that if push came to shove, all assetts could be dispersed very quickly througout the group. One of the guys even suggested that Farmer was planning ahead for the day when he is no longer here (I believe he's past retirement age just now?)


The yam is just about right in principle but the highlighted £5m is wrong and it's not really as complicated as he claims.

KeithTheHibby
29-12-2010, 10:27 AM
Yeah that is exactly why he got involved in a debt ridden club like Hibs in the first place it was ALL about Profit :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Are you for real pal?

Stay off the mind altering substances in future...

Caversham Green
29-12-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't know how to do links but just google ..Article by Simon Pia for the scotsman on tom farmer and hibs.. The first thing that comes up is Scotia Nostra and you can work your way from there.. I'm sure you'll find it interesting . Let me know what you think :wink:

Thanks, I will. My own research didn't go into any depth at the beginning of STF's ownership, so it should be interesting.

CropleyWasGod
29-12-2010, 10:28 AM
Are you for real pal?

Stay off the mind altering substances in future...

Think he was being sarcastic.

Jack
29-12-2010, 10:37 AM
I shouldn't have said "He's already made a profit" - Although it's only telling the truth in advance :greengrin

For the minefield he took on all those years ago, the potential for disaster that he underwrote, I think he thoroughly deserves any profits that may accrue at the end of his time as Hibs owner.

I think its pretty clear that any money he has taken from the club up till now was only money that he had already put in and to have £5m lying in there somewhere, not even attracting interest, seems to me to be a very good indication that he’s not in it for the money.

On that point. If you look at what happened elsewhere, Man Utd. Liverpool etc. they have been saddled with huge debt as a result of dubious ownership and even across the road they are apparently paying 3-5% above the commercial rate on much of their debt.





In an earlier post you said, for some unknown reason as it seemed unrelated to me, that I should be careful what I say as you were the one who drove Willie Murray to all the away games. :cool2:

I spoke to WFM about this and included in his reply was ‘[name, which I can’t recall]? That f***** Hearts c*** that drove the bus?’ :faf:

Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself, :greengrin I'm sure he'll be in Tamsons pre/post-match tonight. :cheers:

Sudds_1
29-12-2010, 10:39 AM
No reason at all why he should be.

He saved us by playing playing a significant role in buying shares in that horrible 1990 summer. but let's not forget others in 1991 tried to buy the club. Sir Tom wasn't forced into buying the club. I'm not saying the other options were better but there were other options...

Well.............I was once told that STF was pressured into purchase by Keith O'Brien...STF being a good Catholic and all that. Call it his stairway to heaven.............made sense then and does now. Cardinal Keith was worried about the community and the impact of Hibs death on that, STF was a rich businessman in the area with no interest in football - but alwas deferential to his (then) archbishop and his faith.......

If O'Brien hadn't intervened, I doubt STF would have made the move he did. :agree:

aberhibsfc
29-12-2010, 11:45 AM
I'm happy with STF owning the club, he's kept the wolves from the door.

The books of the club have been run well but there needs to be a time when the playing staff becomes the priority. The stands and training grounds have been built and will require some financial maintanence (although was EM not supposed to be bought and paid for?).

I would welcome a buyer to the club if they were to invest sensibly, by that, I mean no-one of the Mad Vlad ilk.

I find it astonishing that so many world wide investors are clambering over each other to buy EPL clubs. It's like the only party in town and it does their image no harm to be seen gorging in that trough. Although the fact that so many are ploughing so much in, much like real estate you pay more in a desirable neighbourhood but get no more for your money than elsewhere. It pushes up the prices and all you have is the prestige, they might as well be pissing in the wind.

I was gobsmacked several years ago when someone ploughed £30m into Nottingham Forrest. It didn't get them anywhere, but the investor still felt there was more chance of success. Why was I gobsmacked, because the investor was Scottish. Now if someone has that kind of money and hail from here, why not pump it into a Scottish team. There is life outwith the big two and if the product was better more fans would come out. Like someone posted in another thread £300M into the EPL is pocket money, £50M would afford you to lock heads with the OF. Anyone who could break that duopoly would have more historical significance than pumping money into the cash guzzling EPL. It can be done, just look at how Porto broke into the duopoly in Portugal.

Jack
29-12-2010, 12:14 PM
Haha... No... The Hearts ---- is Alec Morris you Willie ended up falling out with. I'm Gas Metre to him.I met you in Tamson's a couple of years ago. Alex had a bus company that used to share a garage with Willie but they fell out big time.I used to drive Willie in car with his kids and mine :greengrin


PS I mentioned it because I think you were confusing me for a yam and I thought you would tie me in with Willie/Tamson's and Hibs:greengrin

Yes we have met, I cant recall ever suggesting you were a yam, certainly not on the JKB thread you quoted me originally on or in Tamson’s. :cool2:

If I was to tie up all the WFM/Tamson’s connections I’d need more rope than a cowboy’s convention.

Jack
29-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Sorted then. I'm not going to the game tonight but if you see Muzzle tonight say "Hi" from me.

Part-timer :cool2:

Albion Hibs
29-12-2010, 03:09 PM
yeah he saved us. yeah we have a great stadium and training ground but why have we got a crap team? tf cud put his hands in his deep pockets and buy sum good players

Simply put if Sir Tom and Rod stood outside ER tonight with a bucket and asked you to put your money in for new players would you do it? - I would doubt it, yet a minority of fans expect to see him do it, I dont know why.

He has never said he would be dumping millions in, in fact when I saw him speak at the Hands off Hibs concert he said his aim was to secure hibs for the future and true to his word he has.

Perhaps he has taken the view that he has transformed Hibs, stadium, training centre, sound financial footing. It is up to the fans to come through the door and use the stadium to give money to the club to buy players. Those who are fans will do it week in week out, those to are not so committed wont. Before the simple argument comes back - why would I pay to watch that.... - save it, I have seen worse Hibs teams. If I was him I would be taking the view that fans cant just turn up when its good, then disappear when its bad and expect ST to put money in when they wont.

In addition to the above I think Rod is untouchable, and both are so for the excellent reason that they have done the best, and everything, they can for Hibs.

DarlingtonHibee
29-12-2010, 03:35 PM
I've seen the evidence he produced. It's unlikely you will ever see it.

Can you post the evidence ?

Kaiser1962
29-12-2010, 08:20 PM
Yes.

Are you going to post this on the general board?

I am a genuinely interested party in this.

sesoim
29-12-2010, 11:02 PM
I have no problem with STF. He saved us in 1990, and has taken a backseat since, which is fine in my book (unless somebody else with more money to spend was snubbed).

I do have issues with Petrie though. he is terrible at appointing managers, Hughes was a stupid appointment and CC is a shocking appointment given his record and the other guys who were available.

If Hibs end up bottom this season, Petrie should show he has some dignity and resign, as his awful appointments will have put us there.

sambajustice
29-12-2010, 11:27 PM
This is the SPL, nobody is going to buy a club here out with the Old Firm and throw money at it without ulterior motives. At the end of the day, give me Sir Tom Farmer over Vladimir Romanov any and every day of the week.

Aye, because with STF we have consistently finished above our league rivals, got to Europe, split the Old firm and won a couple of Scottish Cups!!

((i know VR wasn't there for the first SC the Brownshirts won))

PatHead
29-12-2010, 11:46 PM
Well.............I was once told that STF was pressured into purchase by Keith O'Brien...STF being a good Catholic and all that. Call it his stairway to heaven.............made sense then and does now. Cardinal Keith was worried about the community and the impact of Hibs death on that, STF was a rich businessman in the area with no interest in football - but alwas deferential to his (then) archbishop and his faith.......

If O'Brien hadn't intervened, I doubt STF would have made the move he did. :agree:

I once asked STF why he got involved with Hibs. He told me it was his brother who begged him (Cardinal O'Brien is not his brother or indeed a Hibby but a Celtic man). I also asked why he didn't sink money into the club and he said he would rather give money to more deserving causes. He feels Hibs should be able to stand on their own feet and he would sell up given the chance. He admits he is not really a football fan but did it for Leith. He does however get "kicks" out of Hibs and I will always remember chatting to supporters whilst buying all Hibs supporters tea in the Asda at Hampden

ScottB
30-12-2010, 03:58 AM
Aye, because with STF we have consistently finished above our league rivals, got to Europe, split the Old firm and won a couple of Scottish Cups!!

((i know VR wasn't there for the first SC the Brownshirts won))

I really couldn't care less what Hearts have done, they've mortgaged their future for 2 cups and a second place. It's not worth it. Sure, we've been hearing of their pending demise for years now, but their club is a financial basket case, sooner or later they will have to cut their cloth accordingly.

More to the point, we have an owner who saved the club and leaves the people in charge to do their jobs, you'd never have Sir Tom phoning CC to tell him to play Hogg or else for example. Anyone who'd rather have Vlad in charge than Sir Tom is certifiable.

Haymaker
30-12-2010, 04:36 AM
We owe everything to Sir Tom Farmer.

:not worth

Jack
30-12-2010, 08:04 AM
I have no problem with STF. He saved us in 1990, and has taken a backseat since, which is fine in my book (unless somebody else with more money to spend was snubbed).

I do have issues with Petrie though. he is terrible at appointing managers, Hughes was a stupid appointment and CC is a shocking appointment given his record and the other guys who were available.

If Hibs end up bottom this season, Petrie should show he has some dignity and resign, as his awful appointments will have put us there.

STF tells Rod what to do and any major issues, like managers I'd imagine, will be agreed by both. So IMO they both deserve the credit when its due and the blame when things go wrong.
.
With regard to managers there weren't many who disagreed with the choices made at the time.

Kaiser1962
30-12-2010, 08:23 AM
Was there not quite a swell of opinion at the time that Rod would never appoint Yogi for "personal issues" and Rod got roundly slated for this?
Now he's getting it large for appointing him?

Talk about a no-win situation........:rolleyes:

sambajustice
30-12-2010, 11:21 AM
I really couldn't care less what Hearts have done, they've mortgaged their future for 2 cups and a second place. It's not worth it. Sure, we've been hearing of their pending demise for years now, but their club is a financial basket case, sooner or later they will have to cut their cloth accordingly.

More to the point, we have an owner who saved the club and leaves the people in charge to do their jobs, you'd never have Sir Tom phoning CC to tell him to play Hogg or else for example. Anyone who'd rather have Vlad in charge than Sir Tom is certifiable.

Well they dont look like they're going out of business any time soon, contrary to the weekly reports on here for the last five years, and they're still consistently finishing above us and getting to Europe more than us, ie being more successful. So would you rather be a Hearts fan or a Hibs fan...?

Phil D. Rolls
30-12-2010, 11:52 AM
Well they dont look like they're going out of business any time soon, contrary to the weekly reports on here for the last five years, and they're still consistently finishing above us and getting to Europe more than us, ie being more successful. So would you rather be a Hearts fan or a Hibs fan...?

What kind of stupid question is that? :lolyam:

Lucius Apuleius
30-12-2010, 12:02 PM
Well they dont look like they're going out of business any time soon, contrary to the weekly reports on here for the last five years, and they're still consistently finishing above us and getting to Europe more than us, ie being more successful. So would you rather be a Hearts fan or a Hibs fan...?

feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecking hell man!!!!!!!! What a question. I would rather be the steam of a jobby than a jambo as would, I am sure, every other Hibs fan.

ScottB
30-12-2010, 01:44 PM
Well they dont look like they're going out of business any time soon, contrary to the weekly reports on here for the last five years, and they're still consistently finishing above us and getting to Europe more than us, ie being more successful. So would you rather be a Hearts fan or a Hibs fan...?

What kind of question is that? Maybe you should be asking it of yourself.

Hibs obviously.

If your sole motivation for supporting a club is how successful it is, feel free to take yourself along the M8 in future!

clerriehibs
30-12-2010, 02:00 PM
Well they dont look like they're going out of business any time soon, contrary to the weekly reports on here for the last five years, and they're still consistently finishing above us and getting to Europe more than us, ie being more successful. So would you rather be a Hearts fan or a Hibs fan...?

The OP was a bit pointless IMHO, but that post is just plain stupid in any decent person's opinion. :jamboclow

NAE NOOKIE
30-12-2010, 11:06 PM
The OP was a bit pointless IMHO, but that post is just plain stupid in any decent person's opinion. :jamboclow

Well ... Not pointless I hope, coz as I said before theres nothing wrong with having a debate about this.

Somebody said that there are two camps on this subject, but I never said Farmer oot! and success at any cost.

What I would never want to see is some zillionnaire spending millions on players, putting that debt onto the Hibs balance sheet and then sodding off a few years later leaving us in the sheeoit.

Man Utd and Man City beware. Not to mention the Yams of course.

As far as the guy saying would you rather be a Yam. I'm sure he meant as far as what ( unfortunately ) they have won over the last 20 years as opposed to actually wanting to be a Yam.

Kaiser1962
31-12-2010, 07:49 AM
I never said you did. What I said was there appeared to be clearly defined opinions on how to progress between assets on the field or off it. A bit off a chicken and egg thing.

On the last part, the Yam thing, by that argument you would be better off wanting to ba a Hun or a soap-dodger would you not? The Yams are not even in the same ball park as them. I think over the piece the Yams success is very similar to us (theres not a huge amount in it) although that is sometimes a matter of perspective and expectation and bear in mind last year at this time the positions were reversed. Would I swap our off field achievements as a trade off for a day in the sun? Not in a million zillion years as I am confident our day in the sun, and their day of reckoning, will come .

Would I want to be a Yam? I would rather have red hot pins inserted into my testicles.


Well ... Not pointless I hope, coz as I said before theres nothing wrong with having a debate about this.

Somebody said that there are two camps on this subject, but I never said Farmer oot! and success at any cost.

What I would never want to see is some zillionnaire spending millions on players, putting that debt onto the Hibs balance sheet and then sodding off a few years later leaving us in the sheeoit.

Man Utd and Man City beware. Not to mention the Yams of course.

As far as the guy saying would you rather be a Yam. I'm sure he meant as far as what ( unfortunately ) they have won over the last 20 years as opposed to actually wanting to be a Yam.