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View Full Version : There is only one man to blame



down the slope
26-12-2010, 06:37 PM
And that is Rod , he has systematically sold anything that moves at ER and replaced them with dross , he is is at the heart of our demise from the point we were at a few years ago to being on the edge of relegation. His handling of the footballing side of our club is frankly appalling and if he were in the real business world he would have got his jotters a long time ago. I think it is time for Sir Tom to have a quiet word in his ear and tell him his time is up , no doubt he will have his supporters on here but just look logically at the decisions he has made and all the failed appointments, How much has that cost us in the past few years ?.
If we go down this season then we may find it very difficult to bounce back, fancy our chances against any team right now ?. The sad point of all this is that many fans are starting to turn their back on the club and i think you will see a big drop in the crowds fron now on, lose them and some will stay away forever.

mcfly
26-12-2010, 06:52 PM
And that is Rod , he has systematically sold anything that moves at ER and replaced them with dross , he is is at the heart of our demise from the point we were at a few years ago to being on the edge of relegation. His handling of the footballing side of our club is frankly appalling and if he were in the real business world he would have got his jotters a long time ago. I think it is time for Sir Tom to have a quiet word in his ear and tell him his time is up , no doubt he will have his supporters on here but just look logically at the decisions he has made and all the failed appointments, How much has that cost us in the past few years ?.
If we go down this season then we may find it very difficult to bounce back, fancy our chances against any team right now ?. The sad point of all this is that many fans are starting to turn their back on the club and i think you will see a big drop in the crowds fron now on, lose them and some will stay away forever.


he is happy to invest in the training ground, and we have the best stadium in scotland outwith the old firm - yet he wont invest in the team.

we are in a relegation battle now -and what CC and the board do in the next 2 weeks is vital. i dont want players in on 31st jan - we need them signed up in the 1st week of jan.

we are dire and this team at the moment are struggling to keep us in the SPL.

i cant see where our next win will come from.
good balance sheets are great but div 1 football will have dire consequences.

SPLASH THE CASH NOW!!!!

muirhousehibby
26-12-2010, 07:01 PM
Got to agree with you both guys. People a pished off and are blaming cc and the players. firstly cc never signed them his hands are tied for now but hopefully things will change in jan.

We are hibs ffs not man u , barcalona or madrid it's the spl but we should be getting better players in and on better wages.

I think booing the team is wrong. it's petrie everyone should be targeting he signs the managers and we've had to many lately which is why there's no continuity.

Having no debt is one thing but everyone who buys a season ticket pays it to watch a good game of football, not to make sure the books are staying balanced.

CC i feel for him, he's got his work cut out in january to turn this around. And thats if Petrie allows him to go into the tranfer market...

And from what i've been told tonight since i got home is true about hibs there's going to be even more serious moaning in the next few days.

The Voice Of Reason
26-12-2010, 07:17 PM
Got to agree with you both guys. People a pished off and are blaming cc and the players. firstly cc never signed them his hands are tied for now but hopefully things will change in jan.

We are hibs ffs not man u , barcalona or madrid it's the spl but we should be getting better players in and on better wages.

I think booing the team is wrong. it's petrie everyone should be targeting he signs the managers and we've had to many lately which is why there's no continuity.

Having no debt is one thing but everyone who buys a season ticket pays it to watch a good game of football, not to make sure the books are staying balanced.

CC i feel for him, he's got his work cut out in january to turn this around. And thats if Petrie allows him to go into the tranfer market...

And from what i've been told tonight since i got home is true about hibs there's going to be even more serious moaning in the next few days.

Care to elaborate please ?

mcfly
26-12-2010, 07:19 PM
Got to agree with you both guys. People a pished off and are blaming cc and the players. firstly cc never signed them his hands are tied for now but hopefully things will change in jan.

We are hibs ffs not man u , barcalona or madrid it's the spl but we should be getting better players in and on better wages.

I think booing the team is wrong. it's petrie everyone should be targeting he signs the managers and we've had to many lately which is why there's no continuity.

Having no debt is one thing but everyone who buys a season ticket pays it to watch a good game of football, not to make sure the books are staying balanced.

CC i feel for him, he's got his work cut out in january to turn this around. And thats if Petrie allows him to go into the tranfer market...

And from what i've been told tonight since i got home is true about hibs there's going to be even more serious moaning in the next few days.


c'mon dont tell us half a story - what's happening??

if its riordan not signing a contract then crowds will dwindle even more.

however i have a hunch that the board will spend serious cash in jan...they must realise that if we dont, this pile of dross wont have the fight for a relegation battle and we could go down.

sambajustice
26-12-2010, 07:28 PM
hibs can ****** off!

Matty_Jack04
26-12-2010, 07:35 PM
Rods fault?? Strange one to me if im honest, i wouldnt say im rods biggest fan but anyone can see its hardly his fault, here are my reasons.
Yes he's ok'd the deals for our most talented players to leave but he's got top dollar for the majority, how many times have u seen players come through the system then leave for nothing? Thats of no benefit to us, secondly where once we were 15mill in debt training in whatever public park was playable and playing in a half finshed stadium we now have a crackin wee ground state of the art training facillities and are not a kick in the erse of being debt free. On feild he's gets critized for the players on show! Quite stunning as all he has done is back the managers who wanted these player, if he doesnt back the manager he puts in charge he gets it in the neck, as for his appointments well im sure some would agree that what he done wrong was listen to us coz we all wanted jc mixu and yogi unfortunatley it went wrong on those occasions but we're as much to blame as him.
I have every faith cc will add to the squad in jan and we'l stay in the league and then cc will begin to re build from the summer, and rod will back him as much as possible.

Dazzling Doidge
26-12-2010, 07:38 PM
And from what i've been told tonight since i got home is true about hibs there's going to be even more serious moaning in the next few days.

Why post if you're not gonna say? People like you do my nut in. :rolleyes:

muirhousehibby
26-12-2010, 07:43 PM
Why post if you're not gonna say? People like you do my nut in. :rolleyes:

2 players that have been getting alot of stick on here recently are rumoured to be asked again to re-sign by calderwood. Staff member i know mentioned people inside easter road were talking about it today before the game...

Baldy Foghorn
26-12-2010, 08:17 PM
2 players that have been getting alot of stick on here recently are rumoured to be asked again to re-sign by calderwood. Staff member i know mentioned people inside easter road were talking about it today before the game...

I know the very two players you are on about...... This board will go into meltdown if correct.....

blackpoolhibs
26-12-2010, 08:19 PM
2 players that have been getting alot of stick on here recently are rumoured to be asked again to re-sign by calderwood. Staff member i know mentioned people inside easter road were talking about it today before the game...

Could those 2 players be Nish and Rankin?

BroxburnHibee
26-12-2010, 08:20 PM
I know the very two players you are on about...... This board will go into meltdown if correct.....

Its already in meltdown - doesn't take a genius to work out who we're talkin about.

scoopyboy
26-12-2010, 08:32 PM
I know the very two players you are on about...... This board will go into meltdown if correct.....

I've not heard about any players recently being offered new deals bar one who has actually signed a four and a half year extension. Hibs have not seen fit to announce it for whatever reason so I won't identify the player before anyone asks.

I know Hogg was offered an extension around last November but never signed it, I'm not 100% sure on these things but could it still be on the table?

Players tend to keep contract negotiations close to their chest so I don't know how much of this is true.

FWIW I believe Rankin wants to play in England, I suppose signing for Berwick would technically satisfy his needs.

fife hfc
26-12-2010, 08:37 PM
I've not heard about any players recently being offered new deals bar one who has actually signed a four and a half year extension. Hibs have not seen fit to announce it for whatever reason so I won't identify the player before anyone asks.

I know Hogg was offered an extension around last November but never signed it, I'm not 100% sure on these things but could it still be on the table?

Players tend to keep contract negotiations close to their chest so I don't know how much of this is true.

FWIW I believe Rankin wants to play in England, I suppose signing for Berwick would technically satisfy his needs.

:top marks Its certainly his level:greengrin

new malkyhib
26-12-2010, 09:03 PM
FWIW I believe Rankin wants to play in England, I suppose signing for Berwick would technically satisfy his needs.[/QUOTE]

I'll give him a run down in my car if he wants. If these rumours are true re Rankin & Nish, then I really wonder if Petrie and Lindsay have any sense of irony at all.

Either that, then they maybe don't give a stuff about the Hibs support.

scoopyboy
26-12-2010, 09:10 PM
FWIW I believe Rankin wants to play in England, I suppose signing for Berwick would technically satisfy his needs.

I'll give him a run down in my car if he wants. If these rumours are true re Rankin & Nish, then I really wonder if Petrie and Lindsay have any sense of irony at all.

Either that, then they maybe don't give a stuff about the Hibs support.[/QUOTE]

He is so fit he will simply run down, no need for a lift.

sKipper
26-12-2010, 09:12 PM
If Hibs re-sign Nish and Rankin crowds will be down to the 7k mark before the end of the season.

Would never have believed it possible. Definitely down to Petrie.

ScottB
26-12-2010, 09:34 PM
If Hibs re-sign Nish and Rankin crowds will be down to the 7k mark before the end of the season.

Would never have believed it possible. Definitely down to Petrie.

What complete b***ocks.

You honestly think Petrie would force players on to the manager that he didn't want? That makes perfect financial sense doesn't it.

If anyone gets a new deal it will be because CC wants them, and it's his job to do that. End of.

matty_f
26-12-2010, 09:39 PM
What complete b***ocks.

You honestly think Petrie would force players on to the manager that he didn't want? That makes perfect financial sense doesn't it.

If anyone gets a new deal it will be because CC wants them, and it's his job to do that. End of.

:agree:

Black Kyle
26-12-2010, 09:40 PM
I'm on the fence on this one. RP and co have on one hand stabilised the club financially and achieved the training facilities and stadium but have perhaps underestimated the real cost of this in terms of signing and to a degree being able to keep quality players and more importantly continuing to be a top 6 side rather than the relegation material we currently seem to be. We've only lost 2 first team players (and a long term injury) from last season's squad which had potential - so what has gone so wrong?

The aim for this season must now be survival and at a push, top 6 and a cup run / win! Then next season rebuild. GGTTH

jdships
26-12-2010, 09:40 PM
What complete b***ocks.

You honestly think Petrie would force players on to the manager that he didn't want? That makes perfect financial sense doesn't it.

If anyone gets a new deal it will be because CC wants them, and it's his job to do that. End of.

:agree:

sKipper
26-12-2010, 09:47 PM
What complete b***ocks.

You honestly think Petrie would force players on to the manager that he didn't want? That makes perfect financial sense doesn't it.

If anyone gets a new deal it will be because CC wants them, and it's his job to do that. End of.

Eh ? Are you that simple ?

Pertrie sets the budget and these players are the level we are limited to. FFS :rolleyes:

jane_says
26-12-2010, 09:48 PM
to say its not cc's fault is ball locks, he inherited a so-called bunch of losers and wage thiefs etc etc, these same losers, wage thiefs were flying high at this very point last year, if the problem is attitude then that is the MANAGERS JOB. It's been proved these players can do a job and if he cant get them to play then that's his fault.

Don't get me wrong i see where the op is coming from and totally agree the team needs investment but cc cannot be blameless for this

ScottB
26-12-2010, 09:54 PM
Eh ? Are you that simple ?

Pertrie sets the budget and these players are the level we are limited to. FFS :rolleyes:

Petrie doesn't pick what players we sign, he doesn't wander around East Mains handing out contract extensions to players without asking the manager, which was what was being suggested, maybe your the 'simple' one if you didn't bother reading that bit.

Petrie sets the budgets. The manager finds players. Done.

matty_f
26-12-2010, 09:57 PM
We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

The team we see on the pitch is a result of several poor signings by successive managers, who have almost entirely been able to miss the sort of deals that other SPL clubs on lower budgets have been able to find.

Mowbray generally bought well on a much lower budget than Collins, Mixu, and Yogi were afforded.

IMHO, the board have to do more in January than they've done previously or we are in serious danger of going down. They need to do whatever Calderwood wants with the squad, then prove their value by finding a way to fund it.

blackpoolhibs
26-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Petrie doesn't pick what players we sign, he doesn't wander around East Mains handing out contract extensions to players without asking the manager, which was what was being suggested, maybe your the 'simple' one if you didn't bother reading that bit.

Petrie sets the budgets. The manager finds players. Done.


We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

The team we see on the pitch is a result of several poor signings by successive managers, who have almost entirely been able to miss the sort of deals that other SPL clubs on lower budgets have been able to find.

Mowbray generally bought well on a much lower budget than Collins, Mixu, and Yogi were afforded.

IMHO, the board have to do more in January than they've done previously or we are in serious danger of going down. They need to do whatever Calderwood wants with the squad, then prove their value by finding a way to fund it.

:top marks:agree:

new malkyhib
26-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Petrie doesn't ick what players we sign, he doesn't wander around East Mains handing out contract extensions to players without asking the manager, which was what was being suggested, maybe your the 'simple' one if you didn't bother reading that bit.

Petrie sets the budgets. The manager finds players. Done.

Which maybe limits us to re-signing the dross that's taken us to where we are right now?

Petrie's job in terms of the infastructure is done now. IF we stay up he should step down and give way to someone with fire in their belly to take the club forward.

All IMHO of course.

BEEJ
26-12-2010, 10:01 PM
What complete b***ocks.

You honestly think Petrie would force players on to the manager that he didn't want? That makes perfect financial sense doesn't it.
RP may not do that now.

But I believe he did so during Mixu's time as manager.

AFKA5814_Hibs
26-12-2010, 10:01 PM
I'm not going to lay blame at any managers fault. EVERY manager at Hibs has had the same problem, some have managed it better than others...

I have to say though, surely the time has to come when Petrie and the board has to realise we CANNOT keep selling our best players and replacing them with something of inferior quality.

What is happening now is exactly is what happens when you sell something and replace it with something which is cheaper, hello it's no any better.....

Petrie - You get rid of good players, you replace them with guff, but hey, they play in front of a nice looking stand. That'll be nice when we are playing in front of Morton or Partick Thistle...get a grip!!!

jdships
26-12-2010, 10:05 PM
We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

The team we see on the pitch is a result of several poor signings by successive managers, who have almost entirely been able to miss the sort of deals that other SPL clubs on lower budgets have been able to find.

Mowbray generally bought well on a much lower budget than Collins, Mixu, and Yogi were afforded.

IMHO, the board have to do more in January than they've done previously or we are in serious danger of going down. They need to do whatever Calderwood wants with the squad, then prove their value by finding a way to fund it.



Can't argue with that especially the last paragraph :thumbsup:

matty_f
26-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Which maybe limits us to re-signing the dross that's taken us to where we are right now?

Petrie's job in terms of the infastructure is done now. IF we stay up he should step down and give way to someone with fire in their belly to take the club forward.

All IMHO of course.

Why are teams with lower budgets than us signing better players then?

ScottB
26-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Which maybe limits us to re-signing the dross that's taken us to where we are right now?

Petrie's job in terms of the infastructure is done now. IF we stay up he should step down and give way to someone with fire in their belly to take the club forward.

All IMHO of course.

Maybe so, but then the likes of ICT and Motherwell spend a lot less than us and don't seem to suffer for it.

The idea that more cash = guarranteed better players is one of the most common and stupid suggestions on here at the moment. Case in point from our recent history, we pushed the boat out for Alan O'Brien and Maka, how good were they?

Obviously that doesn't mean to say all more expensive players would end up like that, but you get the idea.

As for selling players, of course we have to sell players! Does anyone think we could have kept all these guys long term? Petrie got us damn good prices for most of them, not much more he can do when players can get 10 times their wages down South or in Glasgow.

ballengeich
26-12-2010, 10:14 PM
We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

The team we see on the pitch is a result of several poor signings by successive managers, who have almost entirely been able to miss the sort of deals that other SPL clubs on lower budgets have been able to find.

Mowbray generally bought well on a much lower budget than Collins, Mixu, and Yogi were afforded.


I agree with that. If Petrie in particular or the board in general are to be criticised, it isn't for the funds which they've supplied, but for poor judgment in the recent appointment of managers. After Collins realised his wish list was a fantasy, his buys were all sub-standard - not one of them has performed consistently at SPL level for us or anyone else. Mixu probably got the Hibs job one step too early in his career. Yogi's signings all seemed to be ex-Falkirk or guys who were a year or two past their best - his only signing of a young player with potential to improve with us was Galbraith. CC? - too early to judge.

The Harp Awakes
26-12-2010, 10:19 PM
We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

IMHO, the board have to do more in January than they've done previously or we are in serious danger of going down. They need to do whatever Calderwood wants with the squad, then prove their value by finding a way to fund it.

Not going to happen unfortunately. Overheard RP saying in behind the goals before the match today that there's unlikely to be many new faces arriving during the January transfer window as there are too many currently on the payroll. Although there are a lot of players out of contract soon the majority are end of season.

One thing I did hear today was that Sproule is coming in January and has to the end of the season to prove himself worth a longer term deal.

new malkyhib
26-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Maybe so, but then the likes of ICT and Motherwell spend a lot less than us and don't seem to suffer for it.

The idea that more cash = guarranteed better players is one of the most common and stupid suggestions on here at the moment. Case in point from our recent history, we pushed the boat out for Alan O'Brien and Maka, how good were they?

Obviously that doesn't mean to say all more expensive players would end up like that, but you get the idea.

As for selling players, of course we have to sell players! Does anyone think we could have kept all these guys long term? Petrie got us damn good prices for most of them, not much more he can do when players can get 10 times their wages down South or in Glasgow.

Collins got the big fees for Brown & Thomson, not Petrie - he wanted to sell at the first offer IIRC.

Petrie sold Stokes to Celtc for sweeties when he was still under contract with two days of the window left.

As CEO of one of Scotland's foremost clubs, what's Petrie's "vision" for Hibs - because i've never heard him commit to what that is?

I'm sick of the seemingly tacit acceptance of mediocrity, and the complete lack fo passion that appears to surround the Hibs, and I think the Board's got a lot to do with that.

But that's only my opinion - I'll say it again though - another wasted season like this one where we'll all be happy to escape relegation isn't good enough; and once the dust settles the CEO should consider his position, because with the completion of the stadium, his work is done as far as I can see and it's time for some new ideas at Easter Road.

cabbageandribs1875
26-12-2010, 10:27 PM
Which maybe limits us to re-signing the dross that's taken us to where we are right now?

Petrie's job in terms of the infastructure is done now. IF we stay up he should step down and give way to someone with fire in their belly to take the club forward.

All IMHO of course.

and who do you think that would/could be ? and what exactly would he do to take the club forward ?

Antifa Hibs
26-12-2010, 10:28 PM
Who gives a **** about the league. We have the best stadium outside Glasgow. The best training academy after the Old Firm and the best finances after Celtic. Thats what football is all about. To hell with a good free flowing football winning team!!! Who wants that :cool2:

greenlex
26-12-2010, 10:34 PM
Why are teams with lower budgets than us signing better players then?

Because Hughes Debateably Mixu and certainly Collins identified and signed poorer players than their SPL counterparts. Calderwood may or may not be better in that respect but for me has the rest of this season and next season to prove he has us moving in the right direction and then another two or three seasons to deliver.

new malkyhib
26-12-2010, 10:35 PM
and who do you think that would/could be ? and what exactly would he do to take the club forward ?

A football-minded person would be a start - someone who sees beyond infastructure/balance sheets/incremental growth, etc... what was the crowd today? barely scratched 10k - for our only home game of the festive period - hardly a hallmark of a club in the ascendancy is it?

Sorry I don't have a name to throw in the ring, but as I said previously, a fresh set of ideas would do everyone a lot of good. The club needs new blood at boardroom level - someone who can court the press and "sell" the club in the media too.

greenlex
26-12-2010, 10:38 PM
A football-minded person would be a start - someone who sees beyond infastructure/balance sheets/incremental growth, etc... what was the crowd today? barely scratched 10k - for our only home game of the festive period - hardly a hallmark of a club in the ascendancy is it?

Sorry I don't have a name to throw in the ring, but as I said previously, a fresh set of ideas would do everyone a lot of good. The club needs new blood at boardroom level - someone who can court the press and "sell" the club in the media too.
Why does the club need to be sold to a courted Media then?
Oh aye and we have a game on Wednesday against Dundee Utd.

matty_f
26-12-2010, 10:38 PM
Because Hughes Debateably Mixu and certainly Collins identified and signed poorer players than their SPL counterparts. Calderwood may or may not be better in that respect but for me has the rest of this season and next season to prove he has us moving in the right direction and then another two or three seasons to deliver.
:agree:



A football-minded person would be a start - someone who sees beyond infastructure/balance sheets/incremental growth, etc... what was the crowd today? barely scratched 10k - for our only home game of the festive period - hardly a hallmark of a club in the ascendancy is it?

Sorry I don't have a name to throw in the ring, but as I said previously, a fresh set of ideas would do everyone a lot of good. The club needs new blood at boardroom level - someone who can court the press and "sell" the club in the media too.

You don't, just for a second, think that that the board recognise that there is a direct link between how much income we get and how well the team does? You don't think that they've considered that they need to get a winning team on the park to keep those bank balances looking healthy?

You don't think that the building of the stadium and the training centre were all done to ultimately benefit what we're watching on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon?

new malkyhib
26-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Why does the club need to be sold to a courted Media then?
Oh aye and we have a game on Wednesday against Dundee Utd.

1 - because we're the Hibs, that's how.
2 - oh sorry - I almost forgot - bet it'll be even less than the 10k we got today - and all the while we're at the forefront of change in the SPL in an "elite" leagu set-up that we might not even be a part of it next year, the rate we're going all along at.

And answer me this, if we do get relegated, do you think the Board will be free of blame, and more to the point, still worthy of their 400k a year salaries?

trev the hat
26-12-2010, 11:03 PM
RP only spends when his back is up against the wall, he has done it 2-3 times to appease us Hibs fans. He brought Riordan back only when the board could take no more pressure from the fans,he spends 500k then the heat is off the board for another 18 months.
He will have no choice to spend in Jan, i only hope CC keeps his search in Scotland as there is more than a few good players in the SPL at other clubs we should be raiding.
Rooney(Inverness) Murphy(Motherwell)Sammon(Killie)
Although its our defence which is a total shambles and has been for a year solid.
IMO (Hart) has been torn apart to many times to recall, and was an expensive panic buy from Yogi:taxi.Hogg :taxiback as captain after his confidence being stretched at being left out is questionable by CC. Murray is the only captain we have and should be given it permanently for stability.
On a lighter note-:flag: Duffy coming back Zoumma returning, and the young boys back from loan will boost us.:flag: I also think Danny Galbraith in his preferred position on the left should be used more often.(not on the right as he was in our last derby at home and completely wasted.)
On attendance- i am not a season holder(thank f--k) but usually always go to Cat A games home & away for my fix. so it would take more than 500k spent every 2yr to get me to re sign my season book(ROD)
Having already got my briefs for greyskull i for one will be giving what very limited football talent we have :thumbsup:my FULL backing :thumbsup:until we can replace our under performers.

RIP
26-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Hibs will achieve nothing as long as Rod Petrie manages our football club.

We are making a loss every year and the product on the park is dire

* Stultifying lack of business flair
* 3 accountants on the board
* Half a million pounds of wages for a BOARD (not commercial or football managers - just the board)
* 8 Football coaches in 10 years
* 85 players in five years

The day to day running of the football side of this business is an absolute shambles. How much longer do we have to suffer this fool?

Time to put Fife Hyland in charge

cabbageandribs1875
26-12-2010, 11:07 PM
A football-minded person would be a start - someone who sees beyond infastructure/balance sheets/incremental growth, etc... what was the crowd today? barely scratched 10k - for our only home game of the festive period - hardly a hallmark of a club in the ascendancy is it?

Sorry I don't have a name to throw in the ring, but as I said previously, a fresh set of ideas would do everyone a lot of good. The club needs new blood at boardroom level - someone who can court the press and "sell" the club in the media too.

i'm willing to give RP another 3 transfer windows(and probably the same for CC)the infrastructure is now in place mh, now the bulk of income that comes in will go towards (hopefully) better players, imho RP has given previous managers pretty decent financial backing, we just cant blame RP for the players that have been signed turning out to be pretty rank, and even if they 'only' get 2k/week can we not(at the very least) expect a professional football player to at least have the skill to pass the ball to someone in the same team as them ? yes there's something not quite right at our club, but i think we should have a good look at the players first, as quite a few posters have pointed out we could have sir alex ferguson managing them, and most of them would STILL be spineless/heartless/gutless players, lets just wait till the summer when a lot of players contracts are up and see if there's a good clear-out, if there's not....then i'l agree with ya :agree:

greenlex
26-12-2010, 11:19 PM
1 - because we're the Hibs, that's how.
2 - oh sorry - I almost forgot - bet it'll be even less than the 10k we got today - and all the while we're at the forefront of change in the SPL in an "elite" leagu set-up that we might not even be a part of it next year, the rate we're going all along at.

And answer me this, if we do get relegated, do you think the Board will be free of blame, and more to the point, still worthy of their 400k a year salaries?
You are indicative of todays society Malky. There always has to be a scapegoat. There is always blame to be apportioned in your world. The board have appointed every manager that has been good bad or indifferent. Why should they be ousted on the back of a few failed appointments. If we avoid relegation and kick on to third next year will you be on giving an apology or be on asking the question why its taken so long?

TheEastTerrace
26-12-2010, 11:25 PM
Hibs will achieve nothing as long as Rod Petrie manages our football club.

We are making a loss every year and the product on the park is dire

* Stultifying lack of business flair
* 3 accountants on the board
* Half a million pounds of wages for a BOARD (not commercial or football managers - just the board)
* 8 Football coaches in 10 years
* 85 players in five years

The day to day running of the football side of this business is an absolute shambles. How much longer do we have to suffer this fool?

Time to put Fife Hyland in charge

Completely agree. St. Petrie and co are not as infallible as people seem to think.

lucky
26-12-2010, 11:52 PM
If the board are drawing 500k is that compatible with other boards in the SPL? Looking at in a simplistic way pay the Chairman 100k per year and spend 400k on two players wages. I spend my 405 per season to watch the team not how good the balance sheet is.

Antifa Hibs
27-12-2010, 12:13 AM
Something that stands out in the accounts for Hibs is the amount of money that goes to the directors. Hibs has paid out roughly 500,000 to the directors for each of the last two seasons. As a percentage of the money coming in to the club this is three times higher than anyone else in the SPL. This seems excessive. This refers to the 200 figures as the 2010 figures for directors are not yet available. They will be included as soon as they are received.

- Football Finances

monktonharp
27-12-2010, 12:45 AM
Because Hughes Debateably Mixu and certainly Collins identified and signed poorer players than their SPL counterparts. Calderwood may or may not be better in that respect but for me has the rest of this season and next season to prove he has us moving in the right direction and then another two or three seasons to deliver.I take your point,but worryinly he is on record saying that his knowledge of ENGLISH FOOTBALL ,leads him to beleive there are some quality players even in the non-league sides:rolleyes:

King Paddy
27-12-2010, 01:13 AM
Petrie is culpable but the buck stops at the ivory tower owner Farmer, he is the real reason we are in the sh.... Either invest more Tom or sell up to football people. Your asset stripping of the golden era is frankly nothing short of a disgrace.

hibiedude
27-12-2010, 05:48 AM
I got a phone call from a good friend last night stating R01rdan won't sign a new deal and will be gone in January.

I hope this is a wind up because we can't afford to lose this guy again

Going back to celtic to replace Hooper seems to be Celtics logic.

But i'm being told its R10rdans decision not to sign a new deal hence Celtics interest.

I would never have posted this if I didnt believe it myself

I will be over the moon to be proved wrong and R01rdan stays

Davy Mac
27-12-2010, 06:43 AM
Not going to happen unfortunately. Overheard RP saying in behind the goals before the match today that there's unlikely to be many new faces arriving during the January transfer window as there are too many currently on the payroll. Although there are a lot of players out of contract soon the majority are end of season.

One thing I did hear today was that Sproule is coming in January and has to the end of the season to prove himself worth a longer term deal.

That's the sort of thing that really bugs me about Hibs, we know what we are going to get from Sproule yet stick him in the shop window for 6 months, does well and then gets a better offer and we're back to square one.

Baldy Foghorn
27-12-2010, 06:50 AM
Not going to happen unfortunately. Overheard RP saying in behind the goals before the match today that there's unlikely to be many new faces arriving during the January transfer window as there are too many currently on the payroll. Although there are a lot of players out of contract soon the majority are end of season.

One thing I did hear today was that Sproule is coming in January and has to the end of the season to prove himself worth a longer term deal.

Too many on the payroll?? Is this not one of the thingsPetrie should have not allowed to spiral out of control..... We have signed players when no manager has been in charge, so what the heck is going on ay ER?

scoopyboy
27-12-2010, 06:51 AM
[/B]

That's the sort of thing that really bugs me about Hibs, we know what we are going to get from Sproule yet stick him in the shop window for 6 months, does well and then gets a better offer and we're back to square one.

If he helps us stay up I would accept it gladly.

Baldy Foghorn
27-12-2010, 06:51 AM
If the board are drawing 500k is that compatible with other boards in the SPL? Looking at in a simplistic way pay the Chairman 100k per year and spend 400k on two players wages. I spend my 405 per season to watch the team not how good the balance sheet is.

:top marks

Baldy Foghorn
27-12-2010, 06:55 AM
Hibs will achieve nothing as long as Rod Petrie manages our football club.

We are making a loss every year and the product on the park is dire

* Stultifying lack of business flair
* 3 accountants on the board
* Half a million pounds of wages for a BOARD (not commercial or football managers - just the board)
* 8 Football coaches in 10 years
* 85 players in five years

The day to day running of the football side of this business is an absolute shambles. How much longer do we have to suffer this fool?

Time to put Fife Hyland in charge

Not sure about your last sentence, but at AGM I asked the question that player sales had helped the bottom line, over the last number of years..... This is not sustainable as there are hardly any of the current squad with a decent sell on value.... The Board said they were trying to increase revenue to counterpart this, but with a poor team on park, gate money will be well down.......

Dazzling Doidge
27-12-2010, 11:55 AM
We spend more on players than all but 3 SPL clubs AFAIK.

The team we see on the pitch is a result of several poor signings by successive managers, who have almost entirely been able to miss the sort of deals that other SPL clubs on lower budgets have been able to find.

Mowbray generally bought well on a much lower budget than Collins, Mixu, and Yogi were afforded.

IMHO, the board have to do more in January than they've done previously or we are in serious danger of going down. They need to do whatever Calderwood wants with the squad, then prove their value by finding a way to fund it.

http://www.headshift.com/blog/seal-of-approval.jpg

new malkyhib
27-12-2010, 12:03 PM
You are indicative of todays society Malky. There always has to be a scapegoat. There is always blame to be apportioned in your world. The board have appointed every manager that has been good bad or indifferent. Why should they be ousted on the back of a few failed appointments. If we avoid relegation and kick on to third next year will you be on giving an apology or be on asking the question why its taken so long?

:faf:thanks for the cod analysis - ever thought of taking up fortune-telling?

I don't rate the Board, and if we did get third next year (that's assuming we're still in the SPL), the team would be sold from under whatever incumbent is in the job at the time quicker than you could blink.

So, not there's not always blame apportioned in my world, you on the other hand probably greet at the X Factor...

blackpoolhibs
27-12-2010, 12:10 PM
:faf:thanks for the cod analysis - ever thought of taking up fortune-telling?

I don't rate the Board, and if we did get third next year (that's assuming we're still in the SPL), the team would be sold from under whatever incumbent is in the job at the time quicker than you could blink.

So, not there's not always blame apportioned in my world, you on the other hand probably greet at the X Factor...

How do you suggest we keep players who want 10k-15k a week?

jdships
27-12-2010, 12:31 PM
:faf:thanks for the cod analysis - ever thought of taking up fortune-telling?

I don't rate the Board, and if we did get third next year (that's assuming we're still in the SPL), the team would be sold from under whatever incumbent is in the job at the time quicker than you could blink.

So, not there's not always blame apportioned in my world, you on the other hand probably greet at the X Factor...

How do you explain the situation where a good young player is offered three/four times his wage by another club and asks to leave ?
It is easy to come on here and say " don't sell" players - are you suggesting we do back to the days of spending money we don't have and can'r earn ?
You make running a football club sound so symplistic :rolleyes:

A player has ten years approx at the top - ten years in which to make as much out the game as possible
Are you saying that's wrong ?

Remember these lads are not practising for the next time round .
You probably/possibly only get one shot at "making it" and you have to take it - believe me I , and probably a number of posters on here , know that to our cost :wink:

BEEJ
27-12-2010, 12:39 PM
Not going to happen unfortunately. Overheard RP saying in behind the goals before the match today that there's unlikely to be many new faces arriving during the January transfer window as there are too many currently on the payroll. Although there are a lot of players out of contract soon the majority are end of season.
The policy now appears to be that we won't spend as much as we used to on releasing players from the remainder of their contracts.

We did a lot of that in the summer of 2009 when Yogi arrived, but have released no players from their contracts since. CC may therefore be largely stuck with what he's got in the squad.

But as we slide further into the relegation mire, RP is going to have to sanction the cost of additional players for CC over the next six months. He has one throw at the dice in the January window. It's a 'cost' which needs to be weighed against the potential financial damage of absence from the SPL over the next couple of seasons or more.

No contest.

jdships
27-12-2010, 01:23 PM
The policy now appears to be that we won't spend as much as we used to on releasing players from the remainder of their contracts.

We did a lot of that in the summer of 2009 when Yogi arrived, but have released no players from their contracts since. CC may therefore be largely stuck with what he's got in the squad.

But as we slide further into the relegation mire, RP is going to have to sanction the cost of additional players for CC over the next six months. He has one throw at the dice in the January window. It's a 'cost' which needs to be weighed against the potential financial damage of absence from the SPL over the next couple of seasons or more.

No contest.

:thumbsup:
Exactly what I heard from one of my lads yesterday afternoon.!!!
Makes financial sense I suppose

IWasThere2016
27-12-2010, 01:35 PM
CC may therefore be largely stuck with what he's got in the squad.

But as we slide further into the relegation mire, RP is going to have to sanction the cost of additional players for CC over the next six months. He has one throw at the dice in the January window. It's a 'cost' which needs to be weighed against the potential financial damage of absence from the SPL over the next couple of seasons or more.

No contest.

As a business there are a number of indicator's of strength - being P+L strength, cash and Balance Sheet strength.

Hibs as a 'business' have neither of the first two, and the third will be eroded with on-going 2m pa losses. Of course, the erosion will come quicker in Division 1 as income will fall. So perhaps we will see RP act.

I can't recall, did he do so last time?

Phil D. Rolls
27-12-2010, 02:04 PM
We should start a thread where Rod Petrie gets the blame for everything. That way when things are going well at the club, we can have an ironic chuckle about the dross that gets written when things are not going so well.

It would be an amusing record of the fickleness and general stupidity of football fans, and would be a really good way to highlight the short sighted, unfounded and ultimately useless, futile, pathetic, childish responses that surface every time we hit a bad patch.

That way people could take a step back from the disappointment of a poor season, and maybe look at Hibs over a longer period. It would help them establish perspective and context, rather than just opening their jacksies and farting.

Alternatively, the thread would be a good document to wave in their faces, when some "respected businessman", who "really loves our club", and has "great visions for the future" has flushed Hibs down the toilet.

I think it would be good to have some proof to wave in the faces of these short term thinkers. Because one thing is for certain, when the solids really hit the ventilation, they won't be holding up their hands saying, "jeez I made a right idiot of myself backing that protest to hound out Farmer, thanks for reminding me, otherwise I might make the same mistake again - if only we'd stuck with Duff and Gray".

down the slope
27-12-2010, 02:29 PM
We should start a thread where Rod Petrie gets the blame for everything. That way when things are going well at the club, we can have an ironic chuckle about the dross that gets written when things are not going so well.

It would be an amusing record of the fickleness and general stupidity of football fans, and would be a really good way to highlight the short sighted, unfounded and ultimately useless, futile, pathetic, childish responses that surface every time we hit a bad patch.

That way people could take a step back from the disappointment of a poor season, and maybe look at Hibs over a longer period. It would help them establish perspective and context, rather than just opening their jacksies and farting.

Alternatively, the thread would be a good document to wave in their faces, when some "respected businessman", who "really loves our club", and has "great visions for the future" has flushed Hibs down the toilet.

I think it would be good to have some proof to wave in the faces of these short term thinkers. Because one thing is for certain, when the solids really hit the ventilation, they won't be holding up their hands saying, "jeez I made a right idiot of myself backing that protest to hound out Farmer, thanks for reminding me, otherwise I might make the same mistake again - if only we'd stuck with Duff and Gray".

As a short term thinker of fifty years all i can say is that we were in a position of strength a few years ago and now we are dire, who's fault is that ?. While we see other teams doing much more on a smaller budget-pick any of the seven above us outwith the OF and hearts then i think i have made my point.

We have been here in the past and anyone the same age as me will remember the last few years of harry Swann's tenure when we had sold the few jewels we had ie Baker and Mcleod, we had a season almost exactly like this one and we only escaped relegation by the skin of our teeth.
Swann was removed and the whole thinking of the club changed from one of containment to one of possibilities , it was not all plain sailing but from the top the thinking was to get top managers in and from nonentities we went to having Shankly, Stein and Turnbull.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY , until we get rid of the small minded people who are running our club and put in place experienced managers and players of a proven quality then we will only sink further.

MrSmith
27-12-2010, 02:42 PM
Hello, erm, um, uhuh, yep, sure, possibly, maybe, erm oh! I'm floating...life is great!
Its like a rainbow and everyone is talking truths...Wow, its every so clear; look at me maw, I'm on top o the world!!

joebakerforever
27-12-2010, 03:15 PM
If the transfer budget is being cut because of the alleged fiscal difficulties we are experiencing, will Petrie be setting a similar example and take a reduction in the amount of cash he personally takes from the Club :hmmm:

Phil D. Rolls
27-12-2010, 03:18 PM
As a short term thinker of fifty years all i can say is that we were in a position of strength a few years ago and now we are dire, who's fault is that ?. While we see other teams doing much more on a smaller budget-pick any of the seven above us outwith the OF and hearts then i think i have made my point.

We have been here in the past and anyone the same age as me will remember the last few years of harry Swann's tenure when we had sold the few jewels we had ie Baker and Mcleod, we had a season almost exactly like this one and we only escaped relegation by the skin of our teeth.
Swann was removed and the whole thinking of the club changed from one of containment to one of possibilities , it was not all plain sailing but from the top the thinking was to get top managers in and from nonentities we went to having Shankly, Stein and Turnbull.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY , until we get rid of the small minded people who are running our club and put in place experienced managers and players of a proven quality then we will only sink further.

If we were in a position of strength, who was that down to? How successful were we in the 60s? All I ask is that people temper their current disappointment with a realistic perspective.

matty_f
27-12-2010, 03:18 PM
If the transfer budget is being cut because of the alleged fiscal difficulties we are experiencing, will Petrie be setting a similar example and take a reduction in the amount of cash he personally takes from the Club :hmmm:

He's done it before, so who knows?

down the slope
27-12-2010, 04:22 PM
If we were in a position of strength, who was that down to? How successful were we in the 60s? All I ask is that people temper their current disappointment with a realistic perspective.


We were in a position of strength that had nothing to do with the Tash, we got lucky and handed a gold mine of players that he could not sell quick enough and replaced them with duds.
As for the sixties we were on the up after the brush with relegation , we had young players that were coming through that stayed with the club and there seemed to be a progression year on year with some great football played along the way-remember the Napoli game or has that slipped your mind ?, now we could not beat the Napoli cafe !.
I think i have a realistic perspective and it is a lot more than the current boards it seems , and to cap it all this clown of a chairman wants us to join a ten team league without a bye your leave to the people who count the most-us.

IWasThere2016
27-12-2010, 04:30 PM
He's done it before, so who knows?

To be clear, the cut was reflected a significant cut in duties - and not the manager's budget.

matty_f
27-12-2010, 04:42 PM
To be clear, the cut was reflected a significant cut in duties - and not the manager's budget.

Point is that he dropped his salary tqm, he's demonised on here as some sort of thief where it's clear by his actions that he is far from it.

The discussion has been had on here about the spend on the board and people imho deliberately refuse to acknowledge that we pay the board the going rate for the role.

We have recruited people on to the board from similar positions with other companies, the only way we can do that is by offering a competitive salary. I genuinely don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

Dr Jimmy
27-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Offering a competitive salary to get good people on the board is fine, but are we getting good people? Is the same person making the board selection that has been responsible for the managerial selections?
The main question that never seams to be answered or put forward is, where is the vision and strategy for ALL parts of the business?
A lot of us bought into the idea that when the infrastructure was complete money would be spent on the team. I now doubt we will ever spend money and the boards plan is to accept what ever happens and HOPE something better comes along.

the slope
27-12-2010, 05:18 PM
Got to agree with you both guys. People a pished off and are blaming cc and the players. firstly cc never signed them his hands are tied for now but hopefully things will change in jan.

We are hibs ffs not man u , barcalona or madrid it's the spl but we should be getting better players in and on better wages.

I think booing the team is wrong. it's petrie everyone should be targeting he signs the managers and we've had to many lately which is why there's no continuity.

Having no debt is one thing but everyone who buys a season ticket pays it to watch a good game of football, not to make sure the books are staying balanced.

CC i feel for him, he's got his work cut out in january to turn this around. And thats if Petrie allows him to go into the tranfer market...

And from what i've been told tonight since i got home is true about hibs there's going to be even more serious moaning in the next few days.


Not sure but don't we have to pay a mortgage for the new stands which is in effect a debt of sorts ?

H113EE5
27-12-2010, 08:04 PM
... no, make that FULL responsibility

OK let's get things clear, Im not a Jambo or a Hibbie who is new to the game. Im 61 and have been watching Hibs since late 50s when my Dad took me along and a season ticket holder for 20 years.

However this is as bad as it gets, equal to all the dark days of Auld, Miller, Mixu and Yogi. There is no flair, fight, interest nor basic professionalism from many of the players. Its no use blaming Hogg, Rankin, Miller, Bamba, et al. and who the **** cares what the other side think, because deep down we know, we know not very good, in fact , were *****. Since last Christmas and possibly several years back its been a downward spiral where weve been lucky to get a place in Europe, even had a fantastic opportunity to break the SC hoodoo, last season but failed and saw the best of our team sold on.

Where to lay the blame? The Board!!!!

Id rather support a team worth watching on the park with a stadium as bad as the worst in the League (Fir Park?) and a training facility at Inverleith or some other Council facility than have this finance fixated culture we have just now. Sitting in a fantastic stadium, doesnt make the product on the park any better, its the talent that needs to be nurtured not the bricks and mortar. Id rather be challenging for the top positions than being top of the financial league. We have the 3rd best stadium and training facility coupled with the 3rd worst football team in Scotland Premier League.

I was a happy clapper.. now its absolutely depressing to go there week on week (and the away games) and see this [email protected] on the park.

CC must wonder what he let himself in for!!

The Tache has done eff-all for us. Time to step down.........

A thought... let's have a one season wonder from a new owner with promises of riches... at least it'll make the walk to the stadium a little more enjoyable!!

Sorry that this is a tad incoherent but emotion and a glass or two of wine has taken its toll.

and another though... back in the 80s and 90s, at least you could look at boats in the Forth or the walkers on Arther Seat, now with the corners filled in the nothing to take you mind of the drudgery on the park.

and another thought... holiday week-end and we only get 10k for a home game... voting with the feet....

HIBERNIAN-0762
27-12-2010, 08:16 PM
Some good points and understand your frustration mate, but the one thing I always bang on about it is that ever since we moved to that "state of the art" training facility we have been crap...full stop, time to stop using the 5* hotel and get back to proper basics

Rant over

DarlingtonHibee
27-12-2010, 09:11 PM
... no, make that FULL responsibility

OK let's get things clear, Im not a Jambo or a Hibbie who is new to the game. Im 61 and have been watching Hibs since late 50s when my Dad took me along and a season ticket holder for 20 years.

However this is as bad as it gets, equal to all the dark days of Auld, Miller, Mixu and Yogi. There is no flair, fight, interest nor basic professionalism from many of the players. Its no use blaming Hogg, Rankin, Miller, Bamba, et al. and who the **** cares what the other side think, because deep down we know, we know not very good, in fact , were *****. Since last Christmas and possibly several years back its been a downward spiral where weve been lucky to get a place in Europe, even had a fantastic opportunity to break the SC hoodoo, last season but failed and saw the best of our team sold on.

Where to lay the blame? The Board!!!!

Id rather support a team worth watching on the park with a stadium as bad as the worst in the League (Fir Park?) and a training facility at Inverleith or some other Council facility than have this finance fixated culture we have just now. Sitting in a fantastic stadium, doesnt make the product on the park any better, its the talent that needs to be nurtured not the bricks and mortar. Id rather be challenging for the top positions than being top of the financial league. We have the 3rd best stadium and training facility coupled with the 3rd worst football team in Scotland Premier League.

I was a happy clapper.. now its absolutely depressing to go there week on week (and the away games) and see this [email protected] on the park.

CC must wonder what he let himself in for!!

The Tache has done eff-all for us. Time to step down.........

A thought... let's have a one season wonder from a new owner with promises of riches... at least it'll make the walk to the stadium a little more enjoyable!!

Sorry that this is a tad incoherent but emotion and a glass or two of wine has taken its toll.

and another though... back in the 80s and 90s, at least you could look at boats in the Forth or the walkers on Arther Seat, now with the corners filled in the nothing to take you mind of the drudgery on the park.

and another thought... holiday week-end and we only get 10k for a home game... voting with the feet....

As you say a tad incoherent

Brads Laing
27-12-2010, 09:13 PM
You are both wrong. We have signed top clss players over the last 5 years, such as Stokes, Miller, Murphy, Riordan and Murray back and more, have the least debt in the SPL, built a new stand to complete our stadium and built a new 9 million pound training centre, what more could the board do to help?

Cropley10
27-12-2010, 09:25 PM
You are both wrong. We have signed top clss players over the last 5 years, such as Stokes, Miller, Murphy, Riordan and Murray back and more, have the least debt in the SPL, built a new stand to complete our stadium and built a new 9 million pound training centre, what more could the board do to help?

:faf:

Aye and they've hired Collins, Mixu, Hughes and now Calderwood as managers.

Discarding, or engineering the departure of all but one - when, with hindsight, none were qualified for the job. We have an absolutely dire team because of our Board, not despite them...

steviecarnie
27-12-2010, 09:35 PM
built a new 9 million pound training centre,

you obviously never went to the rod petrie school of mathematics - East Mains cost 5m

Thecat23
27-12-2010, 09:42 PM
You are both wrong. We have signed top clss players over the last 5 years, such as Stokes, Miller, Murphy, Riordan and Murray back and more, have the least debt in the SPL, built a new stand to complete our stadium and built a new 9 million pound training centre, what more could the board do to help?

Start running Hibs as a football team not a business. I'm thankful for the training centre, new stand etc... But i want to watch football. Not 11 guys not interested in playing. The board must now invest in the team or risk losing revenue as fans will stay away. If they do give cash to CC hopefully he can bring in 3 or 4 players who will make the fans come back and want to watch Hibs. I want to see Fight, passing, goals. Something that's sadly missing at ER these days.

IWasThere2016
27-12-2010, 10:40 PM
You are both wrong. We have signed top clss players over the last 5 years, such as Stokes, Miller, Murphy, Riordan and Murray back and more, have the least debt in the SPL, built a new stand to complete our stadium and built a new 9 million pound training centre, what more could the board do to help?

We do not have the lowest debt on the SPL - nor did we before we added more for the East Stand.

new malkyhib
28-12-2010, 01:21 AM
Point is that he dropped his salary tqm, he's demonised on here as some sort of thief where it's clear by his actions that he is far from it.

The discussion has been had on here about the spend on the board and people imho deliberately refuse to acknowledge that we pay the board the going rate for the role.

We have recruited people on to the board from similar positions with other companies, the only way we can do that is by offering a competitive salary. I genuinely don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

1) No, he's not demonised as "some sort of thief" but more of a non-football person CA who has no connection with the Hibs support.

& 2) there's too many of them, who don't justify the massive outlay we lavish on them for what return precisely?

new malkyhib
28-12-2010, 01:23 AM
As a short term thinker of fifty years all i can say is that we were in a position of strength a few years ago and now we are dire, who's fault is that ?. While we see other teams doing much more on a smaller budget-pick any of the seven above us outwith the OF and hearts then i think i have made my point.

We have been here in the past and anyone the same age as me will remember the last few years of harry Swann's tenure when we had sold the few jewels we had ie Baker and Mcleod, we had a season almost exactly like this one and we only escaped relegation by the skin of our teeth.
Swann was removed and the whole thinking of the club changed from one of containment to one of possibilities , it was not all plain sailing but from the top the thinking was to get top managers in and from nonentities we went to having Shankly, Stein and Turnbull.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY , until we get rid of the small minded people who are running our club and put in place experienced managers and players of a proven quality then we will only sink further.

:top marksthis should be e-mailed verbatim to the Board immediately. Absolutely spot-on.

BroxburnHibee
28-12-2010, 02:34 AM
All you guys who want to play the blame game have turned this place into a poisonous hate filled moanin ******* zone.

Anyone who thinks these guys are not supporters are either nuts or blind.

They've made mistakes (even RP) just like everyone else has I'm sure and will no doubt be thinking of ways to improve our situation.

I've asked this on another thread though...................


Apart from throw money at the problem (which obviously worked for us in the past :rolleyes:)..................


Whats YOUR solution if its so easy.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 07:12 AM
Agree BH. If we signed Wenger or Ferguson they would be too old or if Rod got Mourinho he would "know nothing about Scottish fitba'". I'm sure Williamson (before he joined us that is) was the sort of "experienced and proven" manager that people want now yet our most successful stints in recent years have been with rookies. As a club we lose money year on year and for all the comments that it should be run "like a football team and not a business" I would ask who pays?
Those who want the board to change who do they suggest? Farmer did all he could to avoid getting involved in the early 90's but ended up as a very reluctant owner and I would ask who is there to buy him, or Rod, out?

I would also suggest that because of their respective ages this is going to happen in the next 10 years so those who want them out are going to get their wish its what follows these two that worries me.


All you guys who want to play the blame game have turned this place into a poisonous hate filled moanin ******* zone.

Anyone who thinks these guys are not supporters are either nuts or blind.

They've made mistakes (even RP) just like everyone else has I'm sure and will no doubt be thinking of ways to improve our situation.

I've asked this on another thread though...................


Apart from throw money at the problem (which obviously worked for us in the past :rolleyes:)..................


Whats YOUR solution if its so easy.

steakbake
28-12-2010, 07:41 AM
Wonder if we'll get another one of those newsletters trundled out like we did the last time the board took a bit of heat during mixu's time?

matty_f
28-12-2010, 09:02 AM
All you guys who want to play the blame game have turned this place into a poisonous hate filled moanin ******* zone.

Anyone who thinks these guys are not supporters are either nuts or blind.

They've made mistakes (even RP) just like everyone else has I'm sure and will no doubt be thinking of ways to improve our situation.

I've asked this on another thread though...................


Apart from throw money at the problem (which obviously worked for us in the past :rolleyes:)..................


Whats YOUR solution if its so easy.

:agree:

Considering the length of time Petrie's been in charge of the football club, to describe him as a non-football person is absurd.

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 09:04 AM
They've made mistakes (even RP) just like everyone else has I'm sure and will no doubt be thinking of ways to improve our situation.

Apart from throw money at the problem (which obviously worked for us in the past :rolleyes:).....

Whats YOUR solution if its so easy.

Let me throw that back - what's your solution if it is not money? Has someone you know got a magic wand?

matty_f
28-12-2010, 09:14 AM
Let me throw that back - what's your solution if it is not money? Has someone you know got a magic wand?

The solution is to create an environment in which the team can grow. The solution is to trust the manager and to back him with as much as we can afford.

Then it comes down to doing what's needed to change the culture at the club, through managing people or moving people on.

Then it's hard work on the training ground. Work on the deficiencies and accept that they won't change in a week, or two weeks, or even a couple of months until significant changes are made.

Folk bang on about getting a 'football man' to replace Petrie - how many clubs have that? How many successful ones?

What do you think Wenger, or Ferguson, or Mourinho would suggest to fans should happen if they were in Calderwood's position?

All the board can do at a football club is to try and recruit the right manager, provide them with as much money as they can afford and to try and sign the players that the manager wants to bring to the club. The board have done that.

BroxburnHibee
28-12-2010, 09:19 AM
Let me throw that back - what's your solution if it is not money? Has someone you know got a magic wand?

The fact that you are one of the biggest moaners about the board & RP in particular and thats your response says it all.

I'm merely making the point that all the 'experts' on here no *** all about what it takes and I'm sick of reading the constant attacks and blame culture that goes on.

Same old problem on here - plenty moanin ******** and not a constructive idea in sight.

erin go bragh
28-12-2010, 09:22 AM
Petrie is culpable but the buck stops at the ivory tower owner Farmer, he is the real reason we are in the sh.... Either invest more Tom or sell up to football people. Your asset stripping of the golden era is frankly nothing short of a disgrace.
thats right , blame the guy that saved us going out the box:cool2:

matty_f
28-12-2010, 09:32 AM
thats right , blame the guy that saved us going out the box:cool2:

:agree:

Not only that, but look at the club now (current form taken out of the equation) compared to where we've come from. The club has grown from when I started following Hibs and for the majority of that time it's been under Petrie and STF.

Yes, we're pish this season and something needs to happen to address this, but it was only last season we finished fourth and got into Europe, and only a few years back that silverware was being paraded around Easter Road.

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 09:32 AM
The fact that you are one of the biggest moaners about the board & RP in particular and thats your response says it all.

I'm merely making the point that all the 'experts' on here no *** all about what it takes and I'm sick of reading the constant attacks and blame culture that goes on.

Same old problem on here - plenty moanin ******** and not a constructive idea in sight.

It wasn't a response - it was a question.

I see you've no solution then ..

My solution lies on other threads but I'll pull together a response for you in a mo

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Point is that he dropped his salary tqm, he's demonised on here as some sort of thief where it's clear by his actions that he is far from it.

The discussion has been had on here about the spend on the board and people imho deliberately refuse to acknowledge that we pay the board the going rate for the role.

We have recruited people on to the board from similar positions with other companies, the only way we can do that is by offering a competitive salary. I genuinely don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

The point is he halved his salary - not benefits or binuses after bringing in someone to day most of his previous role. He also made the cut months after the new guy started :wink:

matty_f
28-12-2010, 09:42 AM
The point is he halved his salary - not benefits or binuses after bringing in someone to day most of his previous role. He also made the cut months after the new guy started :wink:

Once the responsibilities had been handed over.:wink:

TQM, neither you nor I know f*** all about that process so it's better that you don't use it as a stick to beat Petrie with, IMHO.

Too many folk sit and snipe at the club on here that know bugger-all about what they're talking about.

I don't know either, but using at the very least a little common sense and looking at the situation objectively, it's not hard to come to a conclusion that doesn't paint someone in the worst possible light.

And the point was in response to the assumption that Petrie wouldn't drop his salary (presumably on account of him being like some sort of Scrooge-esque character).

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Once the responsibilities had been handed over.:wink:

TQM, neither you nor I know f*** all about that process so it's better that you don't use it as a stick to beat Petrie with, IMHO.

Too many folk sit and snipe at the club on here that know bugger-all about what they're talking about.

I don't know either, but using at the very least a little common sense and looking at the situation objectively, it's not hard to come to a conclusion that doesn't paint someone in the worst possible light.

And the point was in response to the assumption that Petrie wouldn't drop his salary (presumably on account of him being like some sort of Scrooge-esque character).

ABSOLUTE PISH - Petrie took the cut from 1 August, SL started in April - that's the facts. Go and look it up and have the decency to apologise afterwards

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 10:21 AM
The fact that you are one of the biggest moaners about the board & RP in particular and thats your response says it all.

I'm merely making the point that all the 'experts' on here no *** all about what it takes and I'm sick of reading the constant attacks and blame culture that goes on.

Same old problem on here - plenty moanin ******** and not a constructive idea in sight.


It wasn't a response - it was a question.

I see you've no solution then ..

My solution lies on other threads but I'll pull together a response for you in a mo

Still nae response from you BH :confused:

Mine is on the PM Board - under Filled Rolls new thread - here (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?200312-OK-Then-What-s-The-Answer&p=2670217&viewfull=1#post2670217)

matty_f
28-12-2010, 10:23 AM
ABSOLUTE PISH - Petrie took the cut from 1 August, SL started in April - that's the facts. Go and look it up and have the decency to apologise afterwards

So in April, SL was doing everything that was to be handed over, with no crossover period at all?


Laughable, and really when you think about it you've embarrassed yourself looking for an apology there, TQM.

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 10:30 AM
So in April, SL was doing everything that was to be handed over, with no crossover period at all?


Laughable, and really when you think about it you've embarrassed yourself looking for an apology there, TQM.

No Matty - I posted the facts.

BroxburnHibee
28-12-2010, 10:37 AM
Still nae response from you BH :confused:

Mine is on the PM Board - under Filled Rolls new thread - here (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?200312-OK-Then-What-s-The-Answer&p=2670217&viewfull=1#post2670217)

Excuse me G - but I don't spend every minute of my life on here and FYI I am not the one mumping my gums about the inadequacies of our board at every opportunity.

I've asked others to show me how easy it is to fix the situation - as of now your response is the only one I've seen.

Having now read it - are you really saying that spending on a few players and getting rid of some (or all) of the '16' will fix everything?

FWIW I'd personally like to see a few new players to at least freshen the squad AND hopefully save us from relegation however its well documented its not easy to get any quality in at the Jan window so I'm not sure exactly how much you would be willing for our club to spend.

Trouble is I don't think this is going to be the quick fix everyone seems to be hoping on and I personally (as Matty says above) am more than willing to trust the running of our club to the guys that are far more qualified than I am.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 10:42 AM
No Matty - I posted the facts.

You posted one fact, with no context around it and no thought to what the practicalities of the appointment and handover were.

Ray_
28-12-2010, 10:46 AM
:agree:

Not only that, but look at the club now (current form taken out of the equation) compared to where we've come from. The club has grown from when I started following Hibs and for the majority of that time it's been under Petrie and STF.

Yes, we're pish this season and something needs to happen to address this, but it was only last season we finished fourth and got into Europe, and only a few years back that silverware was being paraded around Easter Road.

It was a lot different when I started watching Hibs because if we never ended up with European football it was a failure, Hibs were one of the bigger clubs & that was what was expected. Another major difference was that you were entertained at the matches & for a fraction of the price you pay now.

With regard to the Hibs growing, how can that possibly happen with the constant revolving door policy at ER. We bring in the cheap option, they are not good enough & see out their contract and the better players get sold on or leave. We are in an almost constant state of transition and have been since 2002.

Hibercelona
28-12-2010, 10:50 AM
Everybodies to blame! :grr:

matty_f
28-12-2010, 10:55 AM
It was a lot different when I started watching Hibs because if we never ended up with European football it was a failure, Hibs were one of the bigger clubs & that was what was expected. Another major difference was that you were entertained at the matches & for a fraction of the price you pay now.

With regard to the Hibs growing, how can that possibly happen with the constant revolving door policy at ER. We bring in the cheap option, they are not good enough & see out their contract and the better players get sold on or leave. We are in an almost constant state of transition and have been since 2002.

I dare say the whole of Scottish football has changed since you started watching the Hibs, Ray.

The market dictates the prices we pay, and I agree we pay too much for a poor standard, but that's the world we're in.

You can't say we've brought in cheap options - Maka wasn't cheap, AOB wasn't cheap, Miller isn't cheap, Stokes, Riordan, Murray, etc, etc etc.

Yes, we've not replaced a 4m player with another at 4m, but if someone genuinely thinks we could have done that then they are of a sub-normal I.Q., IMHO.

We have also signed some excellent footballers on a very low cost, so it's not always the case that more expensive = better players. I don't doubt that Nish is on more than G'OC was on, for instance.

Hibercelona
28-12-2010, 10:58 AM
I dare say the whole of Scottish football has changed since you started watching the Hibs, Ray.

The market dictates the prices we pay, and I agree we pay too much for a poor standard, but that's the world we're in.

You can't say we've brought in cheap options - Maka wasn't cheap, AOB wasn't cheap, Miller isn't cheap, Stokes, Riordan, Murray, etc, etc etc.

Yes, we've not replaced a 4m player with another at 4m, but if someone genuinely thinks we could have done that then they are of a sub-normal I.Q., IMHO.

We have also signed some excellent footballers on a very low cost, so it's not always the case that more expensive = better players. I don't doubt that Nish is on more than G'OC was on, for instance.

Approximately 3x more! :bitchy:

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 11:02 AM
This comes up a lot Ray and I think its a bit harsh. Sure there have been some that have been "sold" (Sproule springs to mind) but he didnt have to go. The rest, who are oft opined on here, didnt want to stay and (some of them) did all they could to engineer a move away from here and were substantially better off financially. I think some folk expect that they could (should?) have been held against their wishes then they would do all they could to get "sacked" by doing things like ....say...not turning up for training, being late, feigning injury, not trying quite as hard as they might or starting fights with team mates at training (when they do turn up) to name but a few. What do the club do then?

Football has changed since the days when Jim McLean could sign players up for 6 or 7 years and basically destroy their lives if they didnt play ball. And there are, I am led to believe, more changes coming which will certainly not suit clubs like Hibs.




It was a lot different when I started watching Hibs because if we never ended up with European football it was a failure, Hibs were one of the bigger clubs & that was what was expected. Another major difference was that you were entertained at the matches & for a fraction of the price you pay now.

With regard to the Hibs growing, how can that possibly happen with the constant revolving door policy at ER. We bring in the cheap option, they are not good enough & see out their contract and the better players get sold on or leave. We are in an almost constant state of transition and have been since 2002.

BEEJ
28-12-2010, 11:19 AM
Still nae response from you BH :confused:

Mine is on the PM Board - under Filled Rolls new thread - here (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?200312-OK-Then-What-s-The-Answer&p=2670217&viewfull=1#post2670217)
Should you be posting links to the PM Board from the Main Board? :confused:

Etiquette, my good man. Etiquette. :greengrin

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 11:40 AM
How much do the board get paid?

Ray_
28-12-2010, 11:40 AM
I dare say the whole of Scottish football has changed since you started watching the Hibs, Ray.

The market dictates the prices we pay, and I agree we pay too much for a poor standard, but that's the world we're in.

You can't say we've brought in cheap options - Maka wasn't cheap, AOB wasn't cheap, Miller isn't cheap, Stokes, Riordan, Murray, etc, etc etc.

Yes, we've not replaced a 4m player with another at 4m, but if someone genuinely thinks we could have done that then they are of a sub-normal I.Q., IMHO.

We have also signed some excellent footballers on a very low cost, so it's not always the case that more expensive = better players. I don't doubt that Nish is on more than G'OC was on, for instance.

Hi Matty, I think the biggest example of the cheap option has been the football managers position, this is the most important position in the club & should have been considered as such.

To put it in a nutshell, the performances of the hibs mangers, over the last few years, has not been value for the compensation we have paid or had to pay to get shot off.

The performance of the playing staff, reportedly being the forth highest wage budget in the SPL, putting it mildly, have not been value.

The amount of income the club is generating, is not value for the amount of money the club are paying the board.

All those area's are key performance indicators & the club are failing badly in each one of them, so if the board are not to blame, who is? Because anywhere else, all those area's would used as a measure of the boards performance.

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 11:44 AM
Should you be posting links to the PM Board from the Main Board? :confused:

Etiquette, my good man. Etiquette. :greengrin

Only PMs can see it :wink:

Logic, my good man. Logic. :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
28-12-2010, 11:54 AM
I think a lot of the problem is that 90% of the fans have no idea what the long term plan or vision is, how the board propose to get there and how long it will take.

E.G.

At what point will the stands etc finally be paid for ?

At what point will we reach the stage where the majority of the clubs income will be available to spend on transfer fees and wages.

What is the clubs position with regard to getting in new investment? and by that I dont mean a new shorts sponsor or Carling sponsoring the behind the goals bar.

I find it hard to believe that in 20 years our " reluctant " owner with all of his business and social connections has been unable to find " the right man " to invest his cash in what could be a hugely successfull venture if done right.

Any interested party looking at what is already in place at the club would surely think that the potential is there, not to mention the following.

At the 1992 LC final Hibs took 30,000. At the 2004 LC final approx 40,000 and in 2007 another 30,000 which could have been bigger if we had more tickets.

These games were all against 'unfashionable' clubs. For the most part our league gates didnt reflect that kind of support. So even though our home crowds are falling at the moment it shows that the potential is ( and more importantly ) always has been there to vastly increase crowds at ER if the product on the park is right.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Hi Matty, I think the biggest example of the cheap option has been the football managers position, this is the most important position in the club & should have been considered as such.

To put it in a nutshell, the performances of the hibs mangers, over the last few years, has not been value for the compensation we have paid or had to pay to get shot off.

The performance of the playing staff, reportedly being the forth highest wage budget in the SPL, putting it mildly, have not been value.

The amount of income the club is generating, is not value for the amount of money the club are paying the board.

All those area's are key performance indicators & the club are failing badly in each one of them, so if the board are not to blame, who is? Because anywhere else, all those area's would used as a measure of the boards performance.

Ray, it's subjective to say that they're failing. Right now the team on the pitch is failing, nobody would argue. However the club has been rebuilt literally from the ground up since the Mercer takeover attempt. We are in a good (not perfect) position in most areas of the club.

The revenue argument is not a point I can take without countering it - there is a limited amount of revenue a club the size of Hibernian can generate, and we will be not that far off getting about as much as we can. The key thing that we have lost out on as far as income goes is the revenue generated by cup runs, where we have underperformed since Collins' semi-final against Dunfermline.

Hibs' revenue is limited to TV money, sponsorship, advertising, gate receipts and merchandising, more or less. We don't have a wider market than Scotland, really, and within that our main source of income comes from the East of Edinburgh. We will attract some 'investment' from local businesses, but there is not a huge amount of money kicking around just now for companies to put the way of a football club with little or no return on that spend - we're relying on finding Hibs fans with businesses in most cases.

The board haven't gone for the cheap option with managers either - compensation has been payable for Calderwood (and his assistant), for Yogi, and for Mixu. You've no doubt seen the financial position Hibs are in - we can't afford much (if any) more than we've paid for these guys. You're right, it is the most important role at the club, but it's also not an exact science.

We are limited in who we can recruit based on who is interested, who applies, and who we can afford. After that we recruit who the board sees as the best suited candidate. I'm sure they'd have loved to tempt Wenger away from Arsenal, but we're not in a position to do that (I accept that is an extreme, but you get my point I hope!).

As for the playing staff - do you want the board to pick the players for the manager? I don't. I want the manager to have final say on the players, and on who gets contracts. If the manager says he wants a Joe Keenan, and in order to get him the board have to pay him 2k a week - what do you want them to do?

IWasThere2016
28-12-2010, 12:09 PM
You posted one fact, with no context around it and no thought to what the practicalities of the appointment and handover were.

Facts all the same - your post was guess work. The facts are RP took a cut months after SL was appointed to take over the significant element of his duties.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Facts all the same - your post was guess work. The facts are RP took a cut months after SL was appointed to take over the significant element of his duties.

What is the salaries of RP SL and the other directors please?

matty_f
28-12-2010, 12:14 PM
Facts all the same - your post was guess work. The facts are RP took a cut months after SL was appointed to take over the significant element of his duties.

It's not guesswork TQM, you asked me to check the facts, well - back to you - it was documented at the time that there was a handover period and that Petrie's drop in pay was reflected when the duties were handed over.

Sure you'll find it if you have the will. I'll not ask for an apology, though.

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 12:16 PM
The solution is to create an environment in which the team can grow. The solution is to trust the manager and to back him with as much as we can afford.

Then it comes down to doing what's needed to change the culture at the club, through managing people or moving people on.

Then it's hard work on the training ground. Work on the deficiencies and accept that they won't change in a week, or two weeks, or even a couple of months until significant changes are made.

Folk bang on about getting a 'football man' to replace Petrie - how many clubs have that? How many successful ones?

What do you think Wenger, or Ferguson, or Mourinho would suggest to fans should happen if they were in Calderwood's position?

All the board can do at a football club is to try and recruit the right manager, provide them with as much money as they can afford and to try and sign the players that the manager wants to bring to the club. The board have done that.

I dont think the budget is the problem here, selling has been the problem. Petrie has seen fit to sell players to fund other things, which IMO, are not as important as the playing staff.

People are saying it has been a succession of poor managers that have had poor signings, Petrie and Co are the ones that employee these managers therefore have to take the blame there. Petries stance with the collins revolt would have done nothing for Hibs managers in terms of stamping their authority on the team and changing any culture that remains.

There seems to be many problems at Hibs at the moment and Petrie has to take some of the blame. Take the training complex. That must take a fair bit of cash in operating costs and we are not seeing any benefits from having it. The players dont seem any fitter and they dont look as if they have been training together at all, in fact, at times they look like they have been plucked from local pitches and told to play.

A question has to be asked, should the training centre and stand have been built before ensuring a solid team and manager were in place? The training centre doesnt seem to have produced any benefits that can be seen. It could be said that its appeal has made the likes of Miller and Stokes sign, but then again, we never had it when we had Sauzee and Latapy.

Then there is the stand. I was so happy when it was announced, especially when it sounded like we had the money in the bank to pay for it, this now seems like a red herring. It looks like we have some sort of loan on it to pay which leaves as with more outgoings and an empty stand, which may have an adverse effect on ST as people will be able to pick and choose what game to go to as they will still get a seat. Are we going to make more money because of semi finals and scotland games? We will have to wait and see as it looks like the SFA will still use Aberdeens ground.

Hibs look like they have built infrastructure way ahead of the product which in any business is a mistake.

BEEJ
28-12-2010, 12:18 PM
Only PMs can see it :wink:

Logic, my good man. Logic. :greengrin
It's those that can't that I was referring to.

:cool2:

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Are you saying that these players were sold against their wishes? None of them actually wanted to leave to increase their wages ten-fold and bring financial security to themselves and their families?

What was Petrie (in his role as employer) supposed to do when confronted by, pretty much, the entire first team squad (including the captain) with a perceived grievance? If he'd told them to GTF both he and the club would have been in breach of employment law.

I am as frustrated as you are but I genuinely believe that Rod has acted in the best long term interests of the club in all he has done. The infrastructure is in place and the team should develop over the next five years but every time we unearth a gem he will be sold because he will want to be, not because we want to, thats the reality these days and its Rods job to get the best deal possible for Hibs.


I dont think the budget is the problem here, selling has been the problem. Petrie has seen fit to sell players to fund other things, which IMO, are not as important as the playing staff.

People are saying it has been a succession of poor managers that have had poor signings, Petrie and Co are the ones that employee these managers therefore have to take the blame there. Petries stance with the collins revolt would have done nothing for Hibs managers in terms of stamping their authority on the team and changing any culture that remains.

There seems to be many problems at Hibs at the moment and Petrie has to take some of the blame. Take the training complex. That must take a fair bit of cash in operating costs and we are not seeing any benefits from having it. The players dont seem any fitter and they dont look as if they have been training together at all, in fact, at times they look like they have been plucked from local pitches and told to play.

A question has to be asked, should the training centre and stand have been built before ensuring a solid team and manager were in place? The training centre doesnt seem to have produced any benefits that can be seen. It could be said that its appeal has made the likes of Miller and Stokes sign, but then again, we never had it when we had Sauzee and Latapy.

Then there is the stand. I was so happy when it was announced, especially when it sounded like we had the money in the bank to pay for it, this now seems like a red herring. It looks like we have some sort of loan on it to pay which leaves as with more outgoings and an empty stand, which may have an adverse effect on ST as people will be able to pick and choose what game to go to as they will still get a seat. Are we going to make more money because of semi finals and scotland games? We will have to wait and see as it looks like the SFA will still use Aberdeens ground.

Hibs look like they have built infrastructure way ahead of the product which in any business is a mistake.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 12:47 PM
Are you saying that these players were sold against their wishes? None of them actually wanted to leave to increase their wages ten-fold and bring financial security to themselves and their families?

What was Petrie (in his role as employer) supposed to do when confronted by, pretty much, the entire first team squad (including the captain) with a perceived grievance? If he'd told them to GTF both he and the club would have been in breach of employment law.

I am as frustrated as you are but I genuinely believe that Rod has acted in the best long term interests of the club in all he has done. The infrastructure is in place and the team should develop over the next five years but every time we unearth a gem he will be sold because he will want to be, not because we want to, thats the reality these days and its Rods job to get the best deal possible for Hibs.
:agree:

IMHO, the whole situation has been over-played as well. We are not seeing the impact of one meeting three years down the line.

Does anyone know what the outcome of the meeting was? So far as I could see, Petrie told the players that Collins was boss. I would have hoped that he would have met with Collins to discuss the concerns of the players then left it up to JC to change as he saw fit (or not).

Also, Hibs were never going to be able to take in 4m and then spend it on players again, not in the situation we were in or considering the situation from which we'd come from.

The sensible thing was to invest some in the team, and some in the bricks and mortar of the club. These things are bought and built now, we have some extra debt but not crippling and not one that would bring the club to it's knees.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 12:49 PM
What is the salaries of RP SL and the other directors please?

I have found something about Rod taking a cut from 145K in 2008 but nothing more up to date.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 12:51 PM
I have found something about Rod taking a cut from 145K in 2008 but nothing more up to date.

In total its 106k all in.

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 01:09 PM
:agree:

IMHO, the whole situation has been over-played as well. We are not seeing the impact of one meeting three years down the line.

Does anyone know what the outcome of the meeting was? So far as I could see, Petrie told the players that Collins was boss. I would have hoped that he would have met with Collins to discuss the concerns of the players then left it up to JC to change as he saw fit (or not).

Also, Hibs were never going to be able to take in 4m and then spend it on players again, not in the situation we were in or considering the situation from which we'd come from.

The sensible thing was to invest some in the team, and some in the bricks and mortar of the club. These things are bought and built now, we have some extra debt but not crippling and not one that would bring the club to it's knees.

When it comes to selling players we are told that we have to so that we break even? If thats the case, why take on extra debt to build a new stand, selling our top goalscorer for a tiny fee? So now we have extra debt and a rubbish team. Next financial results we will have extra outgoings for the stand and rubbish team which has done nothing for revenue with little assetts to sell. What was the clubs thinking behind increasing outgoings, selling assets and decreasing the product which drives revenue?

In any business it is the wrong way to do things, it doesnt matter if the shops are flash, if the product is rubbish and has no appeal no one wants to spend money.

Petrie knows we have to sell to break even so why increase outgoings on something that wont increase revenue sufficiently to cover our losses. Only spending money on the part that matters, the playing staff, which is still a gamble can increase revenue to offset losses.

Spending money on good players gives you the financial safety net of having that player as an assett. Spending money on bricks and mortar does nothing for the club in assetts as these cannot be sold.

Take a punt on a few players on a 3 - 4 year contract if it doesnt pan out after 1 and a half seasons you can still sell that player to break even or be at a slight loss. Spend money on a stand and pray for the same side you know is flawed doing something is a much bigger risk.

I dont think anyone was wanting us to sell players for 4 mill and use the 4 mill to buy players, but I think at the very least a much larger proportion of that money should have been used. Here is a though though, why not sell a player for 4 mill and not use it all for bricks and mortar?

Lucius Apuleius
28-12-2010, 01:25 PM
When it comes to selling players we are told that we have to so that we break even? If thats the case, why take on extra debt to build a new stand, selling our top goalscorer for a tiny fee? So now we have extra debt and a rubbish team. Next financial results we will have extra outgoings for the stand and rubbish team which has done nothing for revenue with little assetts to sell. What was the clubs thinking behind increasing outgoings, selling assets and decreasing the product which drives revenue?

In any business it is the wrong way to do things, it doesnt matter if the shops are flash, if the product is rubbish and has no appeal no one wants to spend money.

Petrie knows we have to sell to break even so why increase outgoings on something that wont increase revenue sufficiently to cover our losses. Only spending money on the part that matters, the playing staff, which is still a gamble can increase revenue to offset losses.

Spending money on good players gives you the financial safety net of having that player as an assett. Spending money on bricks and mortar does nothing for the club in assetts as these cannot be sold.

Take a punt on a few players on a 3 - 4 year contract if it doesnt pan out after 1 and a half seasons you can still sell that player to break even or be at a slight loss. Spend money on a stand and pray for the same side you know is flawed doing something is a much bigger risk.

I dont think anyone was wanting us to sell players for 4 mill and use the 4 mill to buy players, but I think at the very least a much larger proportion of that money should have been used. Here is a though though, why not sell a player for 4 mill and not use it all for bricks and mortar?

But what if you don't have the shop in the first place? You cannot sell anything. You make a lot of well reasoned points mate, but I think the infrastructure has to be there before the product. You have to have the raw product, yes, but then once you have the infrastructure, you do the refining.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 01:40 PM
In total its 106k all in.

Then the other directors must do nicely according o the following info from football finances. On our turnover it looks too high

2009 - Rod Petrie received 51,000 less pay than in 2008. The overall cost of the directors stayed roughly flat at just under 500,000. The pay going to the directors is the third highest in Scotland. The percentage of the club income going to the directors as pay if three times higher than anyone else in Scotland.
2010 - Something that stands out in the accounts for Hibs is the amount of money that goes to the directors. Hibs has paid out roughly 500,000 to the directors for each of the last two seasons. As a percentage of the money coming in to the club this is three times higher than anyone else in the SPL. This seems excessive.

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 01:50 PM
But what if you don't have the shop in the first place? You cannot sell anything. You make a lot of well reasoned points mate, but I think the infrastructure has to be there before the product. You have to have the raw product, yes, but then once you have the infrastructure, you do the refining.

The infrastructure needs to be there before the product if the growth is expected to utilise the infrastructure. You wouldnt build a massive 3 storey shop if you only can only half fill it and with building it you have reduced your chances of filling it as you have reduced your budget to build a good product.

We were led to believe that the money was there for the stand, it wasnt, we have outgoings now because of it.

In any business you only build in times of growth or expected growth, at a time where you know that the product you have will have increased demand. We have jumped the gun IMO building something for a product that isnt there and that is going to be difficult to achieve.

Right now we have a good training centre, a good stand and a rubbish team. Couple that with the good stand has given us increased outgoings at a time where we need to sell to break even, a football team that has little in the way of sellable assetts which needs money spent on it we are in trouble.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 01:55 PM
When it comes to selling players we are told that we have to so that we break even? If thats the case, why take on extra debt to build a new stand, selling our top goalscorer for a tiny fee? So now we have extra debt and a rubbish team. Next financial results we will have extra outgoings for the stand and rubbish team which has done nothing for revenue with little assetts to sell. What was the clubs thinking behind increasing outgoings, selling assets and decreasing the product which drives revenue?

In any business it is the wrong way to do things, it doesnt matter if the shops are flash, if the product is rubbish and has no appeal no one wants to spend money.

Petrie knows we have to sell to break even so why increase outgoings on something that wont increase revenue sufficiently to cover our losses. Only spending money on the part that matters, the playing staff, which is still a gamble can increase revenue to offset losses.

Spending money on good players gives you the financial safety net of having that player as an assett. Spending money on bricks and mortar does nothing for the club in assetts as these cannot be sold.

Take a punt on a few players on a 3 - 4 year contract if it doesnt pan out after 1 and a half seasons you can still sell that player to break even or be at a slight loss. Spend money on a stand and pray for the same side you know is flawed doing something is a much bigger risk.

I dont think anyone was wanting us to sell players for 4 mill and use the 4 mill to buy players, but I think at the very least a much larger proportion of that money should have been used. Here is a though though, why not sell a player for 4 mill and not use it all for bricks and mortar?

I disagree. there is safety in the bricks and mortar. We could spend a huge amount (or a small amount) on a player who doesn't settle, or who had a career ending injury, or even just an injury that keeps him out for a prolonged period. Look at duffy or zemmama, imagine if either of those had been a 2m player. Imagine if they both were! What return are we getting there?
We have already had one extra fixture at easter road since the stand has been built, with us being ideally placed to be three neutral venue of choice for cup ties outside of glasgow.
Every signing presents a risk, the stand is a calculated at costed bit of business that needed to be done.
We can only spend the money once, there is a sensible and relatively risk free spend which lays the foundations for a football club to prosper for years to come, or there is the buy a couple of players and hope for the best spend.
If it was my money, I know which I'd choose.

WhileTheChief..
28-12-2010, 02:03 PM
Somebody must be to blame for sanctioning the deal that gives Nish 3x the wages of GoC :wink:

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 02:08 PM
I disagree. there is safety in the bricks and mortar. We could spend a huge amount (or a small amount) on a player who doesn't settle, or who had a career ending injury, or even just an injury that keeps him out for a prolonged period. Look at duffy or zemmama, imagine if either of those had been a 2m player. Imagine if they both were! What return are we getting there?
We have already had one extra fixture at easter road since the stand has been built, with us being ideally placed to be three neutral venue of choice for cup ties outside of glasgow.
Every signing presents a risk, the stand is a calculated at costed bit of business that needed to be done.
We can only spend the money once, there is a sensible and relatively risk free spend which lays the foundations for a football club to prosper for years to come, or there is the buy a couple of players and hope for the best spend.
If it was my money, I know which I'd choose.

I think this will be a case of agree to disagree, however, how would you propose that the board increase the budget sufficiently to get us out of this rut and sustain it. Doing this whilst having to sell players when we dont have much in the way of sellable assetts and no guarantees that the extra revenue due to additional games ER will hold offsetting the outgoings of the new stand?

At the end of the day the board see's fit to put us into debt for bricks and mortar but do not see fit to put us into debt for players, which ultimately can be sellable assetts should the financials be hit too hard. Yes players can get injured and therefore produce nil return on the pitch and sell on, but a increased capacity when the product is rank certainly isnt, not enough to offset its costs. Both are risks, but if the board are putting us into debt for something I would rather it be the playing staff which IMO is a leser risk as you can get part of your money back.

Do you think this is a calculated bit of business on the boards part looking at it like this?

Dr Jimmy
28-12-2010, 02:16 PM
It always amazes me the amount of people on here who are happy to go into debt for a new build, but spontaneously combust at the thought of any debt for players.
The only people who will ultimately benefit from all the off field developments are the owners, (as we will hardly ever fill the ground ), but it very much increases our selling value.
The playing side should come first.....end of.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 02:22 PM
I
I think this will be a case of agree to disagree, however, how would you propose that the board increase the budget sufficiently to get us out of this rut and sustain it. Doing this whilst having to sell players when we dont have much in the way of sellable assetts and no guarantees that the extra revenue due to additional games ER will hold offsetting the outgoings of the new stand?

At the end of the day the board see's fit to put us into debt for bricks and mortar but do not see fit to put us into debt for players, which ultimately can be sellable assetts should the financials be hit too hard. Yes players can get injured and therefore produce nil return on the pitch and sell on, but a increased capacity when the product is rank certainly isnt, not enough to offset its costs. Both are risks, but if the board are putting us into debt for something I would rather it be the playing staff which IMO is a leser risk as you can get part of your money back.

Do you think this is a calculated bit of business on the boards part looking at it like this?
The board are on record as saying that the spend on the team is dictated by ticket income etc and not by one off windfalls such as player sales.
This is a sustainable strategy and not one that relies on boom and bust economics.
The board have to increase the spend on the team by driving up other sustainable income, income that is guaranteed over the period that we are covering contracts.
Imho, now is when the board must prove their value, it is clear that new players are needed, and in order to get them a significant spend is required. The board have to get those sustainable funds in place to back the manager. How they do this, well I don't know but they get paid enough to.
if it was me in charge, I'd be coming out with a pea to the fans to fill the ground on the promise that every bit of ticket income will be used to bring talent in. I'd put together a 2 or 3 game package that the fans could buy that guarantees income for the club then go out and try to get them sold.
I 'dbe on to local and national businesses trying to get corporate money in as much volume as I could. Naming rights for a stand? Would consider it if it guaranteed x amount over a number of years.
We could release a special edition fans shirt our strip, again with the specific mandate that every penny raised would go to cc to improve the squad.
the board need to improve the squad, I think they know that and I think there may be willingness to take the financial hit I'm the short term to do it.
I wholeheartedly agree with how they have spent money on building the club up til now though.

Ray_
28-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Ray, it's subjective to say that they're failing. Right now the team on the pitch is failing, nobody would argue. However the club has been rebuilt literally from the ground up since the Mercer takeover attempt. We are in a good (not perfect) position in most areas of the club.

The revenue argument is not a point I can take without countering it - there is a limited amount of revenue a club the size of Hibernian can generate, and we will be not that far off getting about as much as we can. The key thing that we have lost out on as far as income goes is the revenue generated by cup runs, where we have underperformed since Collins' semi-final against Dunfermline.

Hibs' revenue is limited to TV money, sponsorship, advertising, gate receipts and merchandising, more or less. We don't have a wider market than Scotland, really, and within that our main source of income comes from the East of Edinburgh. We will attract some 'investment' from local businesses, but there is not a huge amount of money kicking around just now for companies to put the way of a football club with little or no return on that spend - we're relying on finding Hibs fans with businesses in most cases.

The board haven't gone for the cheap option with managers either - compensation has been payable for Calderwood (and his assistant), for Yogi, and for Mixu. You've no doubt seen the financial position Hibs are in - we can't afford much (if any) more than we've paid for these guys. You're right, it is the most important role at the club, but it's also not an exact science.

We are limited in who we can recruit based on who is interested, who applies, and who we can afford. After that we recruit who the board sees as the best suited candidate. I'm sure they'd have loved to tempt Wenger away from Arsenal, but we're not in a position to do that (I accept that is an extreme, but you get my point I hope!).

As for the playing staff - do you want the board to pick the players for the manager? I don't. I want the manager to have final say on the players, and on who gets contracts. If the manager says he wants a Joe Keenan, and in order to get him the board have to pay him 2k a week - what do you want them to do?

Sorry Matt, there are a few area's where I can't agree. We have moved on since 1990 & the stadium has been rebuilt since then, but we are more than paying for it in terms of what it costs to go to football today.

The revenue problem is a direct result of not having things right on the pitch, which is a direct consequence of not employing the right person to hold the, as I've said, most important position in the club.

Our managers haven't been cheap & a large part of that is paying off poor appointments and when we are talking about cheap options, I still can't agree. Eddie Turnbull was probably the last manager we appointed that the opposition club's fans were really disappointed to lose. Before that we had Bill Shankley & Jock Stein before that.

In spite of the money we bring in, we still manage to pay the board way over the odds for them being here & with respect, IMOH, they have done nothing out of the ordinary here.

Our position isn't too bad, in relation to other teams, but we sold off land & the best bunch of youngsters in generations to do that & it wasn't the board that got the big bucks, it was the fact they supported John Collins in getting their worth.

Getting the stand built for the cost they did, was certainly a plus, but in all honesty, no more than what you should expect a board to do.

The real hard work was to find a man to take the club forward & this is where they have continued to let us down, Mowbary's era proved what money could be brought in to this club, even with our size limitations.

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 02:34 PM
I
The board are on record as saying that the spend on the team is dictated by ticket income etc and not by one off windfalls such as player sales.
This is a sustainable strategy and not one that relies on boom and bust economics.
The board have to increase the spend on the team by driving up other sustainable income, income that is guaranteed over the period that we are covering contracts.
Imho, now is when the board must prove their value, it is clear that new players are needed, and in order to get them a significant spend is required. The board have to get those sustainable funds in place to back the manager. How they do this, well I don't know but they get paid enough to.
if it was me in charge, I'd be coming out with a pea to the fans to fill the ground on the promise that every bit of ticket income will be used to bring talent in. I'd put together a 2 or 3 game package that the fans could buy that guarantees income for the club then go out and try to get them sold.
I 'dbe on to local and national businesses trying to get corporate money in as much volume as I could. Naming rights for a stand? Would consider it if it guaranteed x amount over a number of years.
We could release a special edition fans shirt our strip, again with the specific mandate that every penny raised would go to cc to improve the squad.
the board need to improve the squad, I think they know that and I think there may be willingness to take the financial hit I'm the short term to do it.
I wholeheartedly agree with how they have spent money on building the club up til now though.

Totally agree with what you have said, however, they should have been doing this before the stand was built. The club have relied on selling players to break even, now they must do this whilst outgoings are higher and sellable players are drying up. This is my point, the board have made it more difficult for us to become a success on the pitch as they have sold the good players and increased outgoings at the same time through the cost of the stand. We are now in a relegation battle, something that has been mentioned by our now managers, if we go down how will that effect us? Will ploughing millions into a stand rather than a fraction of that into the squad soften the blow of relegation.

IMO neglecting the playing side, which is the real revenue driver, in favour of bricks and mortar is never a good business strategy. For me, if we get relegated or are even second bottom, I wont be saying well at least we have that new stand.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 02:36 PM
A matterer of perspective again. Our entire board were paid considerably less than either Martin Bain or Peter Lawell. Or about 20% of what Hearts paid in interest. Perhaps thats where we're going wrong and we need to pay more to get better directors? :greengrin

IMHO they are worth it as they do their job which is the business side of things.
The football side of things is another matter.


Then the other directors must do nicely according o the following info from football finances. On our turnover it looks too high

2009 - Rod Petrie received 51,000 less pay than in 2008. The overall cost of the directors stayed roughly flat at just under 500,000. The pay going to the directors is the third highest in Scotland. The percentage of the club income going to the directors as pay if three times higher than anyone else in Scotland.
2010 - Something that stands out in the accounts for Hibs is the amount of money that goes to the directors. Hibs has paid out roughly 500,000 to the directors for each of the last two seasons. As a percentage of the money coming in to the club this is three times higher than anyone else in the SPL. This seems excessive.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 02:57 PM
A matterer of perspective again. Our entire board were paid considerably less than either Martin Bain or Peter Lawell. Or about 20% of what Hearts paid in interest. Perhaps thats where we're going wrong and we need to pay more to get better directors? :greengrin

IMHO they are worth it as they do their job which is the business side of things.
The football side of things is another matter.

Perspective is good. Here is some more to balance things up

"The Hibs directors take over 10% of the club income. The next highest figure in Scottish football is Aberdeen at 4%, for the rest of the clubs it is under 2%. Clearly the Hibs board values itself far higher than any other."

ancienthibby
28-12-2010, 03:12 PM
Perspective is good. Here is some more to balance things up

"The Hibs directors take over 10% of the club income. The next highest figure in Scottish football is Aberdeen at 4%, for the rest of the clubs it is under 2%. Clearly the Hibs board values itself far higher than any other."


Where do you get this garbage from?

The Hibs Accounts, right in front of me, show that the actual number was 6.97% quite a bit different from the over 10% in your quote.

All Hibs directors in total were paid less (almost 50%) than just Martin Bain at Rankgers, as someone else has noted, and if you take away the 106k paid tp RP, the four remaining directors were paid 297k in total. That's on average 74k and fremember that's not base salary, that's a fully burdened cost.

I'd say these are dirt cheap costs for professional directors!:greengrin

ScottB
28-12-2010, 03:18 PM
The strategy was to develop the infrastructure of the club to a point of completion, thus leaving future income to be diverted solely towards the playing staff. If in the next couple of years that doesn't happen, then is the time to complain about that strategy, we are half way through that strategy just now, it can't easily be changed!

The time was right to build the stand simply due to the economic conditions we have found ourselves in, ie it was much cheaper to build now than wait.

For all those who say we shouldn't have built the stand, would you rather we'd waited a few years and spent twice as much on it? Or worse still, that after the planning permission expired we were then unable to build a new stand at all? No doubt more than a few of you would be back torching the Board for failing to act now!


I've said it in a few threads and I'll say it again, more expensive players is not a cast iron guarantee of better players! Liam Miller is probably on more a week than any player since the McLeish era, Alan O'Brien was on a hideous amount of cash a week and become a weight around the clubs neck till his contract was up, Makalambay was a 'big name' signing from a big club and so on and so on. Stokes was a good player but disrupted the squad. The expensive players we can sign will always be either damaged goods or on the way down, if they play well, they want out, if they don't, they take up a huge chunk of the wage bill to play like crap till their contracts run out.

Hibs player strategy should be as heavily based around youth as possible, supplemented by unearthing gems from lower leagues and pinching players from our rival clubs when possible. That is where we suffer, and my biggest questions / complaints of the club are about our scouting set up, we seem unable to do as Dundee United, ICT and co do when it comes to pulling quality players from obscurity.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 03:24 PM
[/B]

Where do you get this garbage from?

The Hibs Accounts, right in front of me, show that the actual figure was 6.97% quite a bit different from the over 10% in your quote.

All Hibs directors in total were paid less (almost 50%) than just Martin Bain at Rankgers, as someone else has noted, and if you take away the 106k paid tp RP, the four remaining directors were paid 297k in total. That's on average 74k and fremember that's not base salary, that's a fully burdened cost.

I'd say these are dirt cheap costs for professional directors!:greengrin


Iirc, comparing the salaries across the clubs isn't comparing apples with apples. Sure I read that some clubs' director's salaries weren't reported the same as ours and that others didn't have it as their full time job and so didn't require a full time salary. Someone with time to search could probably verify this.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 03:28 PM
[/B]

Where do you get this garbage from?

The Hibs Accounts, right in front of me, show that the actual number was 6.97% quite a bit different from the over 10% in your quote.

All Hibs directors in total were paid less (almost 50%) than just Martin Bain at Rankgers, as someone else has noted, and if you take away the 106k paid tp RP, the four remaining directors were paid 297k in total. That's on average 74k and fremember that's not base salary, that's a fully burdened cost.

I'd say these are dirt cheap costs for professional directors!:greengrin

from here

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2010/payroll2.htm

they say 493k directors fees not 403k but don't mention martin bain

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 03:32 PM
[/B]

Where do you get this garbage from?

The Hibs Accounts, right in front of me, show that the actual number was 6.97% quite a bit different from the over 10% in your quote.

All Hibs directors in total were paid less (almost 50%) than just Martin Bain at Rankgers, as someone else has noted, and if you take away the 106k paid tp RP, the four remaining directors were paid 297k in total. That's on average 74k and fremember that's not base salary, that's a fully burdened cost.

I'd say these are dirt cheap costs for professional directors!:greengrin

And when turnover drops this year it will be closer to 10%.

I still fail to see why we require a board that costs as much going forward and I wonder how many other directors of SPL clubs take home as much as ours do?

Mikey
28-12-2010, 03:40 PM
Perspective is good. Here is some more to balance things up

"The Hibs directors take over 10% of the club income. The next highest figure in Scottish football is Aberdeen at 4%, for the rest of the clubs it is under 2%. Clearly the Hibs board values itself far higher than any other."

Hibs have a Finance Director whereas Aberdeen have a Financial Controller who does the same job. Both will be earning around 50k a year.

Hibs have a Marketing Director whereas Aberdeen have a Marketing Manager who does the same job. Both will be earning around 50k a year.

That's just two examples of why comparing like with like when it comes to Director's salaries at other clubs just doesn't work. That pair at Aberdeen aren't on their board.

In fact, I'd be pretty confident that Aberdeen's Financial Controller is earning a good bit more than our Finance Director.

ancienthibby
28-12-2010, 03:41 PM
from here

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2010/payroll2.htm

they say 493k directors fees not 403k but don't mention martin bain

The 6,97% comes from the full costs( including the separation costs of of an exiting director) based on the 7.064 million turnover, so that's correct.:agree:

The 403k was paid to the serving directors through the year, including RP, so it is correct to say that the fully-burdened bill was 297k for Messrs. Lindsay, O'Hagan, Marwick and Hyland.:wink:

ancienthibby
28-12-2010, 03:45 PM
And when turnover drops this year it will be closer to 10%.

Pure genius that!

I still fail to see why we require a board that costs as much going forward and I wonder how many other directors of SPL clubs take home as much as ours do?

I'd not be in any doubt that STF would have given RP a very clear instruction years ago to recruit a full-time executive team of qualified people and pay them appropriately!

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 03:45 PM
from here

http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/2010/payroll2.htm

they say 493k directors fees not 403k but don't mention martin bain

You dont have a copy of the audited accounts then?

Mikeystewart
28-12-2010, 03:48 PM
petrie didnt sack mixu and yogi, the fans did.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 03:50 PM
The 6,97% comes from the full costs( including the separation costs of of an exiting director) based on the 7.064 million turnover, so that's correct.:agree:

The 403k was paid to the serving directors through the year, including RP, so it is correct to say that the fully-burdened bill was 297k for Messrs. Lindsay, O'Hagan, Marwick and Hyland.:wink:

what are we paying directors separation costs for?

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 03:50 PM
petrie didnt sack mixu and yogi, the fans did.

Funny I thought that the Board did and it was due to the dire results.

HFC 0-7
28-12-2010, 03:51 PM
I'd not be in any doubt that STF would have given RP a very clear instruction years ago to recruit a full-time executive team of qualified people and pay them appropriately!


So why is it when revenue falls because of bad seasons etc its the playing staff that pays the price when cost cutting and not the board?

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 03:52 PM
You dont have a copy of the audited accounts then?

No. Whats that directors separation cost about?

Mikey
28-12-2010, 03:53 PM
No. Whats that directors separation cost about?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?192245-****Hibs-Accounts-To-31st-July-2010-See-Them-Here****

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Hibs have a Finance Director whereas Aberdeen have a Financial Controller who does the same job. Both will be earning around 50k a year.

Hibs have a Marketing Director whereas Aberdeen have a Marketing Manager who does the same job. Both will be earning around 50k a year.

That's just two examples of why comparing like with like when it comes to Director's salaries at other clubs just doesn't work. That pair at Aberdeen aren't on their board.

In fact, I'd be pretty confident that Aberdeen's Financial Controller is earning a good bit more than our Finance Director.

As we have 2 chartered accountants on the board already it could surely be asked why we need a third. I cant accept that to hire a financial controller is cheaper than a finance director - sorry.

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 03:58 PM
As we have 2 chartered accountants on the board already it could surely be asked why we need a third. I cant accept that to hire a financial controller is cheaper than a finance director - sorry.

Why not? It's not about the title. It's about the job they do, the level of responsibility, the experience. Just as it is in any commercial situation.

For all I know (and I don't know the relative salaries here), the Hibs post could be less well-paid, but the additional kudos of a seat on the Board might make it more attractive.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 04:03 PM
Why not? It's not about the title. It's about the job they do, the level of responsibility, the experience. Just as it is in any commercial situation.

For all I know (and I don't know the relative salaries here), the Hibs post could be less well-paid, but the additional kudos of a seat on the Board might make it more attractive.

If kudos was in the equation we would not have 0.5m directors fees

ScottB
28-12-2010, 04:03 PM
As we have 2 chartered accountants on the board already it could surely be asked why we need a third. I cant accept that to hire a financial controller is cheaper than a finance director - sorry.

Based on what reasoning? That it doesn't fit into the argument your trying to make?

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Based on what reasoning? That it doesn't fit into the argument your trying to make?

Based on the reasoning that we are football club - not a financial institution.
Why three accountants on the board. It doesn't make sense.

Mikeystewart
28-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Funny I thought that the Board did and it was due to the dire results.

Im assuming you are deliberately acting like an idiot. The pressure applied on the board for the months building up to the sackings of mixu and yogi was the reason. I'nm convinced if the fans where behind the managers they would have stayed in charge much longer

ScottB
28-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Based on the reasoning that we are football club - not a financial institution.
Why three accountants on the board. It doesn't make sense.

No, your decision that a Finance Director must obviously be paid more than a Controller.

I couldn't care less if 3 of our current Directors had a background in managing Greggs, the issue is whether or not they are doing a job. You've made clear from your postings that you don't, so it's not really worth trying to debate it with people who do think they are doing a job.

In any case, I reckon you'll find Accountants on the Boards of most companies, they don't have to be working specifically in a role relating to their experience to be there.

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Based on the reasoning that we are football club - not a financial institution.
Why three accountants on the board. It doesn't make sense.

The fact that there are three bodies on the Board with accountancy qualifications doesn't of itself mean that they are all fulfilling accounting functions. Look at the Boards of most large companies and PLC's, and you will see a lot of qualified accountants. The CA qualification is the most comprehensive formal business qualification there is, and the majority of CA's and ACA's then go on to take other roles within business.

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 04:23 PM
Im assuming you are deliberately acting like an idiot. The pressure applied on the board for the months building up to the sackings of mixu and yogi was the reason. I'nm convinced if the fans where behind the managers they would have stayed in charge much longer

What pressure, you mean on here? Lol
Results and season ticket sales in the main and Hughes being a dick down at east mains, if you believe it was due to some noisy fans on this site then your a joker and the board wouldn't be fit for purpose if it were.

brog
28-12-2010, 04:40 PM
I'm somewhat bemused by this thread. I've always considered RP's reputation as a genius football businessman to be way overstated. He received huge kudos for maximising income from the sales of the golden generation but the reality is that both Mowbray & Collins displayed far greater business acumen. They both had to twist RP's arm to get him to increase salaries to the likes of the twins & Fletch to get them to sign long-term contracts. The quid pro quo was that players were allowed to move if a good offer came in but we realised far more for these players than we would have if we had gone with RP's " vision " of the way forward.
Conversely though I'm not an RP fan, I find it a tad perverse to blame him too much for the current situation. We've now sold the family silver & we've got no obvious major income opportunities on the immediate horizon but East Mains is an investment which needs time to deliver. I argued in an earlier thread that IMO our biggest failing has been in not snapping up young talent from elsewhere. We took a punt on Stokes, got a good season & a good profit out of him but that's it. Dundee U have had sterling service from the likes of Gomis, Swanson & Conway & have bankeable assets for a small outlay. The Yams have the same with Templeton. We need to start doing the same, stop signing journeymen, give us some reason to hope by investing in exciting young players, Leigh Griffiths would do as a start!

Ray_
28-12-2010, 04:57 PM
petrie didnt sack mixu and yogi, the fans did.

He employed them though!

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 05:16 PM
He employed them though!

But he can only employ those that actually want the ****n job!

Mikey
28-12-2010, 05:58 PM
As we have 2 chartered accountants on the board already it could surely be asked why we need a third. I cant accept that to hire a financial controller is cheaper than a finance director - sorry.

So what should the club have done when Tim Gardner left the board?

Cropley10
28-12-2010, 06:00 PM
But he can only employ those that actually want the ****n job!

What will folk like you say and do when we do get relegated.

There is one, single, common denominator - Sir Rodney of Petrie. As he takes the plaudits when we are successful so he must take the brickbats when we are failing.

This Board has presided over a period where it has devoted itself to a strategy of balance sheet repair and capital expenditure on infrastructure, whilst hiring unsuitable, inexperienced and naive managers. Yes the Board has backed these novices and look what we've ended up with - a team of utter dross - bar 2 or 3 players. What it has proven is you cannot sell quality and replace them with no-bodies - you can't do that in any business.

This strategy has been the Board's strategy and it's being severely tested right now. If we are relegated then it's not Calderwood's fault it's the Chairman's. Enough is enough..

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 06:03 PM
I'm somewhat bemused by this thread. I've always considered RP's reputation as a genius football businessman to be way overstated. He received huge kudos for maximising income from the sales of the golden generation but the reality is that both Mowbray & Collins displayed far greater business acumen. They both had to twist RP's arm to get him to increase salaries to the likes of the twins & Fletch to get them to sign long-term contracts. The quid pro quo was that players were allowed to move if a good offer came in but we realised far more for these players than we would have if we had gone with RP's " vision " of the way forward.
Conversely though I'm not an RP fan, I find it a tad perverse to blame him too much for the current situation. We've now sold the family silver & we've got no obvious major income opportunities on the immediate horizon but East Mains is an investment which needs time to deliver. I argued in an earlier thread that IMO our biggest failing has been in not snapping up young talent from elsewhere. We took a punt on Stokes, got a good season & a good profit out of him but that's it. Dundee U have had sterling service from the likes of Gomis, Swanson & Conway & have bankeable assets for a small outlay. The Yams have the same with Templeton. We need to start doing the same, stop signing journeymen, give us some reason to hope by investing in exciting young players, Leigh Griffiths would do as a start!

We also have to acknowledge that the Yams and Arabs have done no better than us over the last ten years. Everybody gets a shot at being third, and as a result everyone has to take their shot at being lower in the league.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 06:12 PM
We,ve been relegated before C10 and nobody died. Other clubs get relegated all the time and while it feels lousy at the time we get over it and if we're on a sound footing we come back. If we have made a total fiscal erse of it like Livi, Dundee or Gretna then we dont.

I agree that we have not replaced like for like but the reason the players left in the first place was because they were offered wages and add on's that we, like most other clubs outside the OF or the Insane, cant get anywhere near, not even close. It would appear that the links or scouting or whatever it was that unearthed the occasional quality that we enjoy for a season or two has dried up a bit.

Even if we could sack Petrie, which we cant and i (and many others it would seem) dont want that to happen, what would it change? Anyone else would be working under the same constraints he is.



What will folk like you say and do when we do get relegated.

There is one, single, common denominator - Sir Rodney of Petrie. As he takes the plaudits when we are successful so he must take the brickbats when we are failing.

This Board has presided over a period where it has devoted itself to a strategy of balance sheet repair and capital expenditure on infrastructure, whilst hiring unsuitable, inexperienced and naive managers. Yes the Board has backed these novices and look what we've ended up with - a team of utter dross - bar 2 or 3 players. What it has proven is you cannot sell quality and replace them with no-bodies - you can't do that in any business.

This strategy has been the Board's strategy and it's being severely tested right now. If we are relegated then it's not Calderwood's fault it's the Chairman's. Enough is enough..

Cropley10
28-12-2010, 06:13 PM
We also have to acknowledge that the Yams and Arabs have done no better than us over the last ten years. Everybody gets a shot at being third, and as a result everyone has to take their shot at being lower in the league.

What complete and utter nonsense. Both those teams have won the Scottish Cup in recent years. The idea that we all "take a shot" at being Third and being relegated is risible.

I've heard some apologies for a failing strategy but this wins the prize.

matty_f
28-12-2010, 06:36 PM
What will folk like you say and do when we do get relegated.

There is one, single, common denominator - Sir Rodney of Petrie. As he takes the plaudits when we are successful so he must take the brickbats when we are failing.

This Board has presided over a period where it has devoted itself to a strategy of balance sheet repair and capital expenditure on infrastructure, whilst hiring unsuitable, inexperienced and naive managers. Yes the Board has backed these novices and look what we've ended up with - a team of utter dross - bar 2 or 3 players. What it has proven is you cannot sell quality and replace them with no-bodies - you can't do that in any business.

This strategy has been the Board's strategy and it's being severely tested right now. If we are relegated then it's not Calderwood's fault it's the Chairman's. Enough is enough..

Mixu, Yogi and Calderwood all had managerial experience prior to coming to Hibernian.

Mowbray, the best out of them all, IMHO, had none.

Collins had no experience yet won us a cup. Go figure. Looks like experience isn't necessarily the answer. McGhoo had bags of experience when he went to Aberdeen.

blackpoolhibs
28-12-2010, 06:38 PM
What complete and utter nonsense. Both those teams have won the Scottish Cup in recent years. The idea that we all "take a shot" at being Third and being relegated is risible.

I've heard some apologies for a failing strategy but this wins the prize.

I'd imagine if we spent that much we were 40m in debt, i'd be upset we had not won the cup too.

I dont have the facts to hand, but i think we have finished 3rd or 4th as much as any team around us in the last decade, bar the obvious 3 who spend much much more than us. And in doing so, we have also finished the ground, built a training complex and won a trophy.

Not too shabby imo, and the foundations are there to do it more regularly now. But as usual, we want it now.

Phil D. Rolls
28-12-2010, 06:41 PM
What complete and utter nonsense. Both those teams have won the Scottish Cup in recent years. The idea that we all "take a shot" at being Third and being relegated is risible.

I've heard some apologies for a failing strategy but this wins the prize.

Just look at the league tables over the last 50 years and tell me how we can improve on our record. I never said I had a strategy, because I don't know what it is we can to change.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 06:44 PM
What will folk like you say and do when we do get relegated.

There is one, single, common denominator - Sir Rodney of Petrie. As he takes the plaudits when we are successful so he must take the brickbats when we are failing.

This Board has presided over a period where it has devoted itself to a strategy of balance sheet repair and capital expenditure on infrastructure, whilst hiring unsuitable, inexperienced and naive managers. Yes the Board has backed these novices and look what we've ended up with - a team of utter dross - bar 2 or 3 players. What it has proven is you cannot sell quality and replace them with no-bodies - you can't do that in any business.

This strategy has been the Board's strategy and it's being severely tested right now. If we are relegated then it's not Calderwood's fault it's the Chairman's. Enough is enough..

Remember the reason as to why the Board have had to focus on 'balance sheet repair,' the huge debts run up when the Board let McLeish speculate to accumulate, pay big wages, sign expensive players etc. Pretty much all the things a faction on here are clamoring for.

How much did we win back then?

Cropley10
28-12-2010, 06:47 PM
We,ve been relegated before C10 and nobody died. Other clubs get relegated all the time and while it feels lousy at the time we get over it and if we're on a sound footing we come back. If we have made a total fiscal erse of it like Livi, Dundee or Gretna then we dont.

I agree that we have not replaced like for like but the reason the players left in the first place was because they were offered wages and add on's that we, like most other clubs outside the OF or the Insane, cant get anywhere near, not even close. It would appear that the links or scouting or whatever it was that unearthed the occasional quality that we enjoy for a season or two has dried up a bit.

Even if we could sack Petrie, which we cant and i (and many others it would seem) dont want that to happen, what would it change? Anyone else would be working under the same constraints he is.

So you're happy to keep Rod in charge as we sink in to Div 1. And no body dies when they get relegated. My thoughts are there will be a lot less HIBS fans who want to keep the same regime, as it will show ,demonstrably, that the grand plan has failed. As Rod has said himself "first and foremost we are a football club".

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 06:49 PM
Remember the reason as to why the Board have had to focus on 'balance sheet repair,' the huge debts run up when the Board let McLeish speculate to accumulate, pay big wages, sign expensive players etc. Pretty much all the things a faction on here are clamoring for.

How much did we win back then?

Not strictly true but is it, Scottish Football was awash with money at the time and every club was spending big then the TV collapsed and we were left with the BBC one. I'd argue that under McLeish we signed some cracking players and sold them on for even more (de La Cruz, Laursen and you can add Kenny Miller into that equation).

How much did we win, a swift fire return to the SPL, a Scottish Cup semi final, a Scottish Cup final and a 3rd place finish was a decent first few steps.

We lost big money by being relegated under Duffy more so than spending under McLeish.

Why do we have to be compared to what has happened previously, is there not a middle ground or is it simply boom or bust?

ScottB
28-12-2010, 06:58 PM
Not strictly true but is it, Scottish Football was awash with money at the time and every club was spending big then the TV collapsed and we were left with the BBC one. I'd argue that under McLeish we signed some cracking players and sold them on for even more (de La Cruz, Laursen and you can add Kenny Miller into that equation).

How much did we win, a swift fire return to the SPL, a Scottish Cup semi final, a Scottish Cup final and a 3rd place finish was a decent first few steps.

We lost big money by being relegated under Duffy more so than spending under McLeish.

Why do we have to be compared to what has happened previously, is there not a middle ground or is it simply boom or bust?

And in the post McLeish era we actually won a Cup and had some decent cup runs, we also have had some cracking players and sold them on for a profit. What's your point?

People seem to talk like we haven't spent a cent on players in years. We've easily spent more than anyone outside the Old Firm and Hearts in the last few years.

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 07:10 PM
So you're happy to keep Rod in charge as we sink in to Div 1. And no body dies when they get relegated. My thoughts are there will be a lot less HIBS fans who want to keep the same regime, as it will show ,demonstrably, that the grand plan has failed. As Rod has said himself "first and foremost we are a football club".

Yes I am happy to keep Rod in charge because I dont believe that there is anyone better out there.

Are we relegated yet? Does anybody know what will happen in the January transfer window? Are we even at the half way point yet?

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 07:15 PM
And in the post McLeish era we actually won a Cup and had some decent cup runs, we also have had some cracking players and sold them on for a profit. What's your point?

People seem to talk like we haven't spent a cent on players in years. We've easily spent more than anyone outside the Old Firm and Hearts in the last few years.

My point is that you quoted the McLeish era as one where we "spent to accumulate" and ran up huge debts, I pointed out that yes we did spend but also had footballing success and it was also required at the time or we'd have had a quick fire return to the 1st division as other clubs had 1 year on us in the newly created cash rich SPL.

We won the cup in the main due to foresight of McLeish to invest in John Park and the youth set up. The same youth set up now sadly lacks way behind a good few other Scottish SPL clubs.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 07:29 PM
My point is that you quoted the McLeish era as one where we "spent to accumulate" and ran up huge debts, I pointed out that yes we did spend but also had footballing success and it was also required at the time or we'd have had a quick fire return to the 1st division as other clubs had 1 year on us in the newly created cash rich SPL.

We won the cup in the main due to foresight of McLeish to invest in John Park and the youth set up. The same youth set up now sadly lacks way behind a good few other Scottish SPL clubs.

To an extent yes. And if we were to 'take a punt' again, and ramp up our spending, that's the area to do it in. Not risky, short term player acquisitions.

Sammy7nil
28-12-2010, 07:39 PM
We also have to acknowledge that the Yams and Arabs have done no better than us over the last ten years. Everybody gets a shot at being third, and as a result everyone has to take their shot at being lower in the league.


Eh !!!!

Yams have won two Scottish Cups and split the OF a tad better than us. (Okay in just over 10 years)

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 07:58 PM
To an extent yes. And if we were to 'take a punt' again, and ramp up our spending, that's the area to do it in. Not risky, short term player acquisitions.

I disagree, we should be easily able to sign 4/5 players to light up the SPL. Guys who aren't a risk, players who's name instantly tell you that they'll succeed in the SPL.
At the start of this season our foundation was there to build on our international players such as Bamba, Miller, Stokes and Riordan.
Once again we either sell them or fail to secure them for a period of years and build a team around them.
When these 4 leave what are we left with, we'll sign players from the reserves of teams in the hope that they come good because the club will not sanction anything which may jeopardise their spend a penny less than we get in income attitude.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 08:20 PM
I disagree, we should be easily able to sign 4/5 players to light up the SPL. Guys who aren't a risk, players who's name instantly tell you that they'll succeed in the SPL.
At the start of this season our foundation was there to build on our international players such as Bamba, Miller, Stokes and Riordan.
Once again we either sell them or fail to secure them for a period of years and build a team around them.
When these 4 leave what are we left with, we'll sign players from the reserves of teams in the hope that they come good because the club will not sanction anything which may jeopardise their spend a penny less than we get in income attitude.

I must have missed Bamba and Miller 'lighting up the SPL' since they got here, and Bamba was a cheap buy from Dunfermline (the kind of deal that we need more of) that had half this place up in arms at the time.

Stokes was good but by all accounts disrupted the team and behaved poorly. So there you go out of last seasons 2 'big name' buys, one hasn't done a whole lot and is costing a hell of a lot more than our other average midfielders, and the other was punted when his track record of boozing and gambling unsurprisingly resurfaced. So to say 'let's spend a load of money on player X, he'll be awesome' just simply isn't true. Before those 2 our last attempts at 'big name' signings were a player from Newcastle and another from Chelsea... How'd they get on?

Granted Riordan has been good, but he is a special case, having already been at the club.

Some of our best players in recent years have been the unknowns and reserves you deride, Sproule, Murphy, Beuzelin, Jones and co. I don't see Dundee United, Motherwell or ICT splashing huge sums of cash to bring in players that could walk into our current squad.

PaulSmith
28-12-2010, 08:26 PM
Can't be ersed quoting the post but if you want to re-read it you'll see that I was saying that we had the foundations to build on with these four.
The other part of the post was around the fact that we should always be able to attract a handful of players who instantly make you sit up and take notice. It should be part of the strategy to grow the club every season.
You'll also find that Maka and O'brien were reserves and I'd heard of neither of them. Signed in the hope that they come good rather than the finished product.
I'd much rather look at the type of players signed at Hearts than what has been done at lesser clubs.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 08:55 PM
So what should the club have done when Tim Gardner left the board?

They could have asked what can we do anything to improve our results but rather than they just hired another accountant. Does he have any knowledge about running a football club?

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 08:56 PM
They could have asked what can we do anything to improve our results but rather than they just hired another accountant. Does he have any knowledge about running a football club?

.. as Finance Director.

Makes sense to me.

Luna_Asylum
28-12-2010, 09:03 PM
.. as Finance Director.

Makes sense to me.

When the two top dogs are CA's you do not need another director who is an accountant. Or if you do then what does he/she bring to the party

Kaiser1962
28-12-2010, 09:12 PM
I agree in general as we should be able to pay more, therefore attract better quality, than most of the SPL but its not a level playing field when clubs are allowed to bid more for players while being hugely in debt. This does not seem fair to me and, at times like this when we are pretty poor, it rankles. The trick is identifying the right player. I have mentioned before that JC really rated O'Brien, told me so himself many times and he knows far more about football than I ever will, but it didnt work out for whatever reason.
You could add Stokes and Miller to that, or De Graff, who Yogi had really high hopes for.
Hopefully CC will have noticed a few popping around the lower echelons of England who might can do a job, or a veteran who can still hack it up here, and steady the ship.


Can't be ersed quoting the post but if you want to re-read it you'll see that I was saying that we had the foundations to build on with these four.
The other part of the post was around the fact that we should always be able to attract a handful of players who instantly make you sit up and take notice. It should be part of the strategy to grow the club every season.
You'll also find that Maka and O'brien were reserves and I'd heard of neither of them. Signed in the hope that they come good rather than the finished product.
I'd much rather look at the type of players signed at Hearts than what has been done at lesser clubs.

CropleyWasGod
28-12-2010, 09:20 PM
When the two top dogs are CA's you do not need another director who is an accountant. Or if you do then what does he/she bring to the party

He is there as Finance Director, to run the treasury and accounting functions.

The other two are not there as accountants. They have other roles.

ScottB
28-12-2010, 11:20 PM
Can't be ersed quoting the post but if you want to re-read it you'll see that I was saying that we had the foundations to build on with these four.
The other part of the post was around the fact that we should always be able to attract a handful of players who instantly make you sit up and take notice. It should be part of the strategy to grow the club every season.
You'll also find that Maka and O'brien were reserves and I'd heard of neither of them. Signed in the hope that they come good rather than the finished product.
I'd much rather look at the type of players signed at Hearts than what has been done at lesser clubs.

My point was you had based things around going after players that we have all heard of / are big names. Well we all knew Liam Miller, many of us had heard of Maka and O'Brien. This is not a cast iron guarantee of success.

You mention Hearts, who among their signings, Barr and Kyle aside (who had hundreds of posts on here dedicated to how crap everyone thought they were), had anyone ever heard of?

Almost all players we are going to buy are going to be hopeful, they will either come from a lower level looking to make the step up, or on the way down hoping to kick start their careers again.

But then folk round here seem to be disappointed no matter what strategy we take, in recent years we've went after players from other SPL clubs (Rankin, Nish etc.), players from lower levels here and abroad (Bamba, Grounds etc.), youngsters from other clubs (Galbraith) and players from a higher level (Miller, Stokes, De Graaf etc.) and still folk complain and there are endless pages of comments decrying most of them as being sh*te!

IWasThere2016
29-12-2010, 09:01 AM
We also have to acknowledge that the Yams and Arabs have done no better than us over the last ten years. Everybody gets a shot at being third, and as a result everyone has to take their shot at being lower in the league.

How many SCs have the won next to our glorious haul too? :agree:

IWasThere2016
29-12-2010, 09:05 AM
It's those that can't that I was referring to.

:cool2:

Well they'll need to spend a tenner to see ma post. Its worth it IMHO :greengrin

HFC 0-7
29-12-2010, 10:03 AM
Does anyone know what the repayments are on the stands including the new one? I believe we have a couple of large payments for the West and goal stands due shortly?

ancienthibby
29-12-2010, 10:35 AM
Does anyone know what the repayments are on the stands including the new one? I believe we have a couple of large payments for the West and goal stands due shortly?

As far as I know, no specific details have been published on the financing of the new stand, though the club have said on a number of occasions that arrangements are in hand.

With respect to the larger mortgage payments you ask about, these are due in 2018 and 2020 (per Note 15 to the Accounts).