Embarrassment

[fatbloke]

I was just wondering how many of our lauded superstars will look at the league table and cringe. Probably only the Hibbys in the squad. 17 points behind after 15 games what an absolute f****n disgrace. Roll on the clear out.

[Toaods]

Superstars?? ...don't think anyone believes we have any of those on the books.

[truehibernian]

I only ever worry or concern myself with Hibernian. What other clubs do, or where Hearts are in the league never really concerns me greatly. Seems to me far too many Hibs fans spend their time worrying about them than our club.......bizarre.

With humility and a wee touch good grace, Hearts are a good team this season and deserve their position in the league. We deserve our place. All thanks to Mr John Hughes IMHO.

Next season my friend we will be in a far far healthier position and you can get back to worrying all things Hibs.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Hearts are in the same position as we were last season at this time. That's all - stop getting your knickers in a twist.

[marinello59]

Superstars?? ...don't think anyone believes we have any of those on the books.
:agree:
And certainly not lauded ones.

I only care about where Hibs are in the league, I certainly don't feel any sense of embarrassment when comparing our club to that classless institution.

[Removed]

:agree:
And certainly not lauded ones.

I only care about where Hibs are in the league, I certainly don't feel any sense of embarrassment when comparing our club to that classless institution.

:agree:

What I find way more embarrassing is all these posts where folk are saying they are embarrassed.

[MSK]

I only ever worry or concern myself with Hibernian. What other clubs do, or where Hearts are in the league never really concerns me greatly. Seems to me far too many Hibs fans spend their time worrying about them than our club.......bizarre.

With humility and a wee touch good grace, Hearts are a good team this season and deserve their position in the league. We deserve our place. All thanks to Mr John Hughes IMHO.

Next season my friend we will be in a far far healthier position and you can get back to worrying all things Hibs.


Hearts are in the same position as we were last season at this time. That's all - stop getting your knickers in a twist.


:agree:
And certainly not lauded ones.

I only care about where Hibs are in the league, I certainly don't feel any sense of embarrassment when comparing our club to that classless institution.Indeed ..:agree:

[Cabbage East]

I think we have to win on ne'erday to save our season or it will be embarassing.

[MSK]

I think we have to win on ne'erday to save our season or it will be embarassing.Thats an uphill task ..not impossible by any means but with this current team & lack of goalscorers then i wouldnae have my confident hat on ..

[truehibernian]

We went to Ibrox and beat the league leaders 3-0 after a run of four defeats........anything is possible in football. Of course we can go there and win.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

We've a game in hand mind ;)

[MSK]

We went to Ibrox and beat the league leaders 3-0 after a run of four defeats........anything is possible in football. Of course we can go there and win.Im no saying we cant ..im saying i aint confident ..how many were confident o pulling off a win at Ibrox ..?

[Hibbyradge]

No need to be embarrassed.

We are a team in transition. Results will improve once our new team is in place and is given time to settle.

Hearts went through this last season.

Despite what people would have you believe, Celtic and Rangers have actually improved on last season when Rangers ended up 24 points clear of third place.

[MSK]

I suppose though its games like the one ahead at Ramshackle that upset the form books ...just like the yams "unbeatable" run was rammed right up their asses by Garry O ...:greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

I only ever worry or concern myself with Hibernian. What other clubs do, or where Hearts are in the league never really concerns me greatly. Seems to me far too many Hibs fans spend their time worrying about them than our club.......bizarre.

With humility and a wee touch good grace, Hearts are a good team this season and deserve their position in the league. We deserve our place. All thanks to Mr John Hughes IMHO.

Next season my friend we will be in a far far healthier position and you can get back to worrying all things Hibs.

Hopefully. But while I'm not obsessed with hearts like some on here I do find it extremely depressing that they are 3 points behind celtc and all these points ahead of us. Especially when some experts on here have been continually telling us for the last 5 years that they're going out of business.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Hopefully. But while I'm not obsessed with hearts like some on here I do find it extremely depressing that they are 3 points behind celtc and all these points ahead of us. Especially when some experts on here have been continually telling us for the last 5 years that they're going out of business.

Myth

[Craig_in_Prague]

they pretty much always finish higher than us, so nothing new this season.

we're generally a tippy tappy spineless shower of crap, with the odd high.
and a complete myth that we are a club that play flair football.

still 100% happy I'm a hibby though !!!

[Part/Time Supporter]

they pretty much always finish higher than us, so nothing new this season.

we're generally a tippy tappy spineless shower of crap, with the odd high.
and a complete myth that we are a club that play flair football.

still 100% happy I'm a hibby though !!!

Except 2 out of the last 3 seasons when they didn't.

Why do Hibs fans always ***** themselves silly whenever Hearts win a few games? The same happened last year when they ate into the massive lead that Hibs had built up. Its not a pretty sight.

[truehibernian]

Except 2 out of the last 3 seasons when they didn't.

Why do Hibs fans always ***** themselves silly whenever Hearts win a few games? The same happened last year when they ate into the massive lead that Hibs had built up. Its not a pretty sight.

Very true.

Hearts are still heavily speculating to accumulate. They continue to pay high salaries......better money means better players. They have better players. It's that simple. Nothing to get worked up about or excited about. If that's the way they want to go, it's their strategy.....let them get on with it.

I think in Templeton in particular they have a £2 million pound youngster on their hands.......the impact he has made is superb. Wallace is in the same bracket, and you have to say that they have value all over the pitch at present. But again, it all boils down to money.

Our policy and strategy is to not overspend and to break even season in, season out. We will never ever match their capability salary wise......that is a given. Therefore we will never be able to get the players that both sides are keen on.

In a bizarre sense, we are in a very strong position bargaining wise given most of our current squad are out of contract. Hibs now do not actively need to get rid of, or sell, or force out of the club (not that we would). The players have put themselves in the unenviable position where their very livelihoods are on the line because of their poor form. We are not a charitable organisation.....many will now find out the ruthless nature of football. And that is what Hibernian must become to succeed. Ruthless.

We now have the chance, in summer, to put together and develop a football club with more desire, skill, pace and energy. We also have a management team who have a fantastic approach to fitness, discipline and man management. There will be no slackers at the club IMHO.

So rather than worry about opposition teams and their form, I honestly think we are in for some exciting times with CC at the helm, and a far stronger club on and off the pitch.

[lapsedhibee]

I was just wondering how many of our lauded superstars will look at the league table and cringe.

Maybe you've been (on the) laudin 'em. Mostly on here they've been berated, abused, vilified, traduced, scapegoated, etc.

[HFC 0-7]

I only ever worry or concern myself with Hibernian. What other clubs do, or where Hearts are in the league never really concerns me greatly. Seems to me far too many Hibs fans spend their time worrying about them than our club.......bizarre.

With humility and a wee touch good grace, Hearts are a good team this season and deserve their position in the league. We deserve our place. All thanks to Mr John Hughes IMHO.

Next season my friend we will be in a far far healthier position and you can get back to worrying all things Hibs.

What other clubs are doing should be concerning, and should be looked at. If we are improving next season but all the other clubs are improving faster then we arent doing enough. If we are not as good as our rivals we may become a less attractive club to play football for.

People always come out with the line about not caring about how hearts are doing and only focussing on how hibs are doing when Hearts are better than us. When we are better than them hardly anyone comes out with 'lets just concern ourselves with what we are doing' You need to know how the opposition is doing to be better than them.

[truehibernian]

What other clubs are doing should be concerning, and should be looked at. If we are improving next season but all the other clubs are improving faster then we arent doing enough. If we are not as good as our rivals we may become a less attractive club to play football for.

People always come out with the line about not caring about how hearts are doing and only focussing on how hibs are doing when Hearts are better than us. When we are better than them hardly anyone comes out with 'lets just concern ourselves with what we are doing' You need to know how the opposition is doing to be better than them.

I don't think for one minute that Colin Calderwood gets anxious or concerned about what Hearts or any other club are doing on or off the pitch.......only when we are to play them will he concern himself of what's required to beat them and get 3 points.

I think you are over complicating a game which is really quite simple.

Should we be looking at Hearts and modelling our financial structure or infrastructure on their's ?

Should we be doing what Rangers have done and overspent, been at the brink of administration (or at least at the beck and call of Lloyds) ?

Should we be like Celtic and go against the SFA and SPL ?

Should we be like Motherwell and have no real infrastructure and be solely dependant on one man's money/financial input to survive (Craig Brown's recent commenst very very enlightening) ?

Hibernian should only ever concentrate on themselves and our collective responsibility. Having a well run football club and a good football team on the pitch for us all to enjoy and support. When we start looking around us at others, other than when we are about to play them, the focus is lost, the mind wanders, and uncertainty and negativity sets in. Every single team knows what is required to have a chance of success.....it is not rocket science. It's just a difficult climate to do it in both financially and within Scottish football and society. I don't mean to sound condescending to your point/opinion.....I just think you are wrong in what you say. There is nothing wrong with visiting the likes of Man Utd, Ajax, etc to look at training techniques and innovative coaching ideas though.

Hibs have to be ruthless and dynamic. CC has the opportunity to do that, unlike the previous managers. I am 100% confident he will succeed.

[oldbutdim]

Maybe you've been (on the) laudin 'em. Mostly on here they've been berated, abused, vilified, traduced, scapegoated, etc.

I saw what you did there.

:cool2:

[ahibby]

Hibs attacking options are worse this year than they were last year and that is having a bad affect. At the beginning of last season we had Zemmama and Stokes, both valuable attacking players. We have neither and that alone can count for the difference in league positions. Had Duffy not gotten injured even that small difference would likely have had some affect on our current position. The other side have much improved their attacking options this season and all of that accounts for switch in fortunes.

[HFC 0-7]

I don't think for one minute that Colin Calderwood gets anxious or concerned about what Hearts or any other club are doing on or off the pitch.......only when we are to play them will he concern himself of what's required to beat them and get 3 points.

I think you are over complicating a game which is really quite simple.

Should we be looking at Hearts and modelling our financial structure or infrastructure on their's ?

Should we be doing what Rangers have done and overspent, been at the brink of administration (or at least at the beck and call of Lloyds) ?

Should we be like Celtic and go against the SFA and SPL ?

Should we be like Motherwell and have no real infrastructure and be solely dependant on one man's money/financial input to survive (Craig Brown's recent commenst very very enlightening) ?

Hibernian should only ever concentrate on themselves and our collective responsibility. Having a well run football club and a good football team on the pitch for us all to enjoy and support. When we start looking around us at others, other than when we are about to play them, the focus is lost, the mind wanders, and uncertainty and negativity sets in. Every single team knows what is required to have a chance of success.....it is not rocket science. It's just a difficult climate to do it in both financially and within Scottish football and society. I don't mean to sound condescending to your point/opinion.....I just think you are wrong in what you say. There is nothing wrong with visiting the likes of Man Utd, Ajax, etc to look at training techniques and innovative coaching ideas though.

Hibs have to be ruthless and dynamic. CC has the opportunity to do that, unlike the previous managers. I am 100% confident he will succeed.

Who said anything about strategy and financial plans etc? I am talking about how good their team is and what we need to do to better that. If you just looked at bettering your own team without looking at the opposition you may not improve enough. Do you think CC will accept that hearts will be better than us because they spend more and that there time will come when they cant spend anymore?

Any decent manager will weigh up the opposition, see where they are going right and wrong. CC will definately be looking at opposition to see where their strengths are. We have a lot of re building work to be done in January and in the summer, to know how much is needed you need to understand how good the opposition are.

You tailor your team and build it to a level that you think it will succeed in the league you are playing. To achieve this you need to know what level your opposition is. Think about it, you need to know how your opposition is building for the future, what players they have that look to be becoming good. If you build a team that you think will succeed without looking at the rest of the league you may fall way short as the other manager may have been working harder.

This is the same for any sport and any business to suceed you must understand what level your peers are at and better them. If you dont you may feel that you have improved, which you have done, but everyone may have improved more.

The fact is, it is complicated. You need to weigh up everything from current players, players other teams have injured still to come back, players you still have to come back. Financial situations of other clubs, players out of contract etc. All these things stack up to how good a team will be.

[cockneymike]

I don't think for one minute that Colin Calderwood gets anxious or concerned about what Hearts or any other club are doing on or off the pitch.......only when we are to play them will he concern himself of what's required to beat them and get 3 points.

I think you are over complicating a game which is really quite simple.

Should we be looking at Hearts and modelling our financial structure or infrastructure on their's ?

Should we be doing what Rangers have done and overspent, been at the brink of administration (or at least at the beck and call of Lloyds) ?

Should we be like Celtic and go against the SFA and SPL ?

Should we be like Motherwell and have no real infrastructure and be solely dependant on one man's money/financial input to survive (Craig Brown's recent commenst very very enlightening) ?

Hibernian should only ever concentrate on themselves and our collective responsibility. Having a well run football club and a good football team on the pitch for us all to enjoy and support. When we start looking around us at others, other than when we are about to play them, the focus is lost, the mind wanders, and uncertainty and negativity sets in. Every single team knows what is required to have a chance of success.....it is not rocket science. It's just a difficult climate to do it in both financially and within Scottish football and society. I don't mean to sound condescending to your point/opinion.....I just think you are wrong in what you say. There is nothing wrong with visiting the likes of Man Utd, Ajax, etc to look at training techniques and innovative coaching ideas though.

Hibs have to be ruthless and dynamic. CC has the opportunity to do that, unlike the previous managers. I am 100% confident he will succeed.

I actually think you're missing the point here. This season we're rubbish, and they're better and just because you choose to take the 'moral high ground' because we're well run and in the position to make significant changes for next year, does not hide the fact that this year we're rubbish, and they're better than us where it matter most - on the pitch.

Prizes are given for where you finish in the league table, and for winning cups - on this season's evidence Hearts are closer to achieving this than we are, that is not something to ignore, even if we would like to. They are our closest rivals and we should always be aware of what they're doing, when bad - because its fun and we can take the p~ss, but also when its good - so that we don't forget what the minimum standard that we need to be looking to achieve is, which is what they get +1 point.


Hibs attacking options are worse this year than they were last year and that is having a bad affect. At the beginning of last season we had Zemmama and Stokes, both valuable attacking players. We have neither and that alone can count for the difference in league positions. Had Duffy not gotten injured even that small difference would likely have had some affect on our current position. The other side have much improved their attacking options this season and all of that accounts for switch in fortunes.

Excellent point, totally agree - last season we would score goals without playing well because of the players we had, this year, other than Riordan, we can't do that. And his goals were included in last years total anyway. Last they had Nade, this year they've got some people that do score - therein lies the difference.

[new malkyhib]

What other clubs are doing should be concerning, and should be looked at. If we are improving next season but all the other clubs are improving faster then we arent doing enough. If we are not as good as our rivals we may become a less attractive club to play football for.

People always come out with the line about not caring about how hearts are doing and only focussing on how hibs are doing when Hearts are better than us. When we are better than them hardly anyone comes out with 'lets just concern ourselves with what we are doing' You need to know how the opposition is doing to be better than them.
:top marks

Exactly - they love beating us, and similarly love rubbing our noses in it - and class the Derby as their biggest game of the season...an attitude that permeates their whole club, from their madcap owner down through their manager and onto the players.

Wish I could say the same about us to be honest - we might fare a bit better against them if that were the case. I also think we should offer the players a higher than normal bonus for beating them too. Sick of playing 2nd fiddle to that shower.

[Booked4Being-Ugly]

Hibs attacking options are worse this year than they were last year and that is having a bad affect. At the beginning of last season we had Zemmama and Stokes, both valuable attacking players. We have neither and that alone can count for the difference in league positions. Had Duffy not gotten injured even that small difference would likely have had some affect on our current position. The other side have much improved their attacking options this season and all of that accounts for switch in fortunes.That's true - although we left ourselves way short up front at the start of the season. We only had 3 strikers to choose from Riordan, Nish and Duffy. Even then Riordan wasn't really considered as a striker under Hughes, so we really had 2 CF's with Trakys only being signed after Duffy was injured!

[Pretty Boy]

I don't care what anyone says i do care when Hearts are above us in the league. I wouldn't go as far as to say i'm embarassed by it but it annoys me, it's not pleasant and put simply it hurts to see them doing fairly well. They may 'only' be in the same position as we were last year but people should remember how good that felt, how much we enjoyed lording it over them and rubbing their noses in it. The feeling now is pretty much the exact opposite of that.

Put simply the only teams in Scotland who realistically should be pushing for 3rd place are Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and probably Dundee United. Out of those teams the only one up there is Hearts. This is simply not good enough. Hibs shouldn't be behind teams like Motherwell and ICT in the league. We have no divine right to be up challenging for Europe but the fact we have a far higher average attendance, fan base, transfer budget and wage budget than the 2 teams i've quoted means we should be doing a hell of a lot better than we are.

Unfortunately i think we are going to have to get used to this boring mediocrity for a bit longer. Don't get me wrong i'm happy with the appointment of Calderwood and delighted we have a real chance to get shot of some of the dead wood in the summer. However that is going to mean a lot of new faces coming in and it takes a while for a team to gel, i'd say mid table next year is again likely.

[Cropley10]

Hearts pay more money for players and to players than we do. FACT.

Hearts spend money they don't have. They spend more on wages than their turnover. They afford this by adding to their debt. FACT.

Hibs don't spend money they don't have, or at least don't pursue the same policy. FACT.

Hearts are doing better than us on the field. FACT

In other leagues, Germany and France (I think) - you are not allowed to operate at a loss and/or get in to debt, as it creates an artificial competitive advantage.

That is what Hearts have done - created an artificial competitive advantage. Why should anyone be either surprised or embarrassed by their position versus ours? :confused:

I think of it this way - we've all probably worked with people or known neighbours who were always driving new cars, wearing flashy clothes, and going on nice holidays. Yet you knew they didn't have the disposable cash to do this so must have had access to credit.

That's Hertz - they get a few thousand extra on their gate, they're not a big club, but they think they are.

[ahibby]

That's true - although we left ourselves way short up front at the start of the season. We only had 3 strikers to choose from Riordan, Nish and Duffy. Even then Riordan wasn't really considered as a striker under Hughes, so we really had 2 CF's with Trakys only being signed after Duffy was injured!

I forgot about Trakys but he needed a while to bed in to Scottish football and looks better playing a support role than a solo striker.

[delbert]

Once again we appear to have selective memory loss on this board when it suits - how many times last season did we see threads saying' Over on 18pointsback' etc, or generally loving every minute of being that many points ahead - nothing wrong with that, we all loved it, I know I did.

Now it's their turn and we have to deal with it, I for one don't think they have a great squad, one or two really excellent players, but they look like a real team just now, and in reality their moderate squad is shedloads better than the rank rotten journeymen with the smiling buffoon left us with, and I just hate saying this.

However, what Jefferies does have, as he did for most of his time at Kille, and in his previous spell at ***********, are players who look like they would run through a wall for him every game, their work ethic is second to none, and our players look disinterested and unfit in comparison (I will wait to get shot down on that one, but games I have seen involving Hibs and Hearts this season have been night and day, the work they do when not in possession is outstanding).

I am all for the clearout in January, get shot of the duds and wage thieves who have taken money for nothing for almost a calendar year, and get guys in who want to play for Hibs and Calderwood in that order, and start to take the club forward again. Under Hughes we had become a one paced team, clubs must have loved playing us, no pace or flair, loads of time to get defences organized, and we stopped scoring, and conceded by the barrowload, how Hughes lasted as long as he did, and remained popular in some quarters was utterly beyond me, but now we at least have hope that CC is a strong manager who will do things his way, and take players along with him who feel proud to play at Easter Road.

I am all for concentrating about Hibs only, and to hell with the competition, but at some point we do have to benchmark ourselves against somebody, and if some posters want to use Hearts at this particular time then so be it, it will be someone else further down the line. Get behind the new manager, get behind the new team, and push onwards as we hopefully start moving in the right direction - GGTTH

[Cropley10]

Once again we appear to have selective memory loss on this board when it suits - how many times last season did we see threads saying' Over on 18pointsback' etc, or generally loving every minute of being that many points ahead - nothing wrong with that, we all loved it, I know I did.

Now it's their turn and we have to deal with it, I for one don't think they have a great squad, one or two really excellent players, but they look like a real team just now, and in reality their moderate squad is shedloads better than the rank rotten journeymen with the smiling buffoon left us with, and I just hate saying this.

However, what Jefferies does have, as he did for most of his time at Kille, and in his previous spell at ***********, are players who look like they would run through a wall for him every game, their work ethic is second to none, and our players look disinterested and unfit in comparison (I will wait to get shot down on that one, but games I have seen involving Hibs and Hearts this season have been night and day, the work they do when not in possession is outstanding).

I am all for the clearout in January, get shot of the duds and wage thieves who have taken money for nothing for almost a calendar year, and get guys in who want to play for Hibs and Calderwood in that order, and start to take the club forward again. Under Hughes we had become a one paced team, clubs must have loved playing us, no pace or flair, loads of time to get defences organized, and we stopped scoring, and conceded by the barrowload, how Hughes lasted as long as he did, and remained popular in some quarters was utterly beyond me, but now we at least have hope that CC is a strong manager who will do things his way, and take players along with him who feel proud to play at Easter Road.

I am all for concentrating about Hibs only, and to hell with the competition, but at some point we do have to benchmark ourselves against somebody, and if some posters want to use Hearts at this particular time then so be it, it will be someone else further down the line. Get behind the new manager, get behind the new team, and push onwards as we hopefully start moving in the right direction - GGTTH

But how do you suggest we 'benchmark' ourselves against a Club who spend a great deal more than we do. When all is said and done paying more should mean better quality. Hearts have better quality throughout - there's no doubt about that IMHO.

JJ has been in this league for donkeys. He has good staff alongside him. Yes he has players who work hard, and we can definitely compete and compare on that front but we can't ignore the fact that their approach off the field is the opposite of ours.

As I said before - they're not a big club, they have only a few more thousand fans than we do - and they spend, as a proportion of that, far more than we do. Sooner or later that has to count, and it is now.

I'd be interested to understand what we should be 'benchmarking'...:confused:

[HFC 0-7]

But how do you suggest we 'benchmark' ourselves against a Club who spend a great deal more than we do. When all is said and done paying more should mean better quality. Hearts have better quality throughout - there's no doubt about that IMHO.

JJ has been in this league for donkeys. He has good staff alongside him. Yes he has players who work hard, and we can definitely compete and compare on that front but we can't ignore the fact that their approach off the field is the opposite of ours.

As I said before - they're not a big club, they have only a few more thousand fans than we do - and they spend, as a proportion of that, far more than we do. Sooner or later that has to count, and it is now.

I'd be interested to understand what we should be 'benchmarking'...:confused:

If you have aspirations to improve and move on then you need to benchmark yourself against your peers. Benchmarking indicates where you are against the opposition and highlights any flaws or strengths. Teams can still achieve better league placings than teams that spend more, we have proved that and a lot of teams in the SPL that spend less than Hibs are proving that right now.

We are not talking about benchmarking financial things here, we are talking about looking at our own team against teams that are succeeding to ascertain why they are achieving and why we are not.

Like it or not we will always strive to be better than hearts, if they are doing better then you have to look at why they are doing better as well as why we are not doing as well. You have to look at the type of player they have in their ranks that make them better. There is no shame in a manger looking at other managers to see what they are doing when they succeed. Lets not forget CC is an inexperienced manager in the SPL and relatively in experienced overall compared to others.

Old firm aside, a team like Hibs must look to be the best of the rest. To do this you have to be better than the team in 3rd, which is Hearts, so why not look at their strengths and try and duplicate some of that? So what if we may be seen as 'copying' if it works and we become better than them it would prove that we done it better.

Lets face it, the reason people are saying 'who cares about them, lets just concentrate on us' is because its hard to take that they are better than us at the moment, especially when they are a debt written club that is badly managed at the top. I find it hard myself, I hate it when my jambo mates talk about football at the moment, but facts are facts in footballing terms they are well ahead of us just now and I wouldnt mind some of the hibs player having their determination or the manager using some of jeffries style of play at the moment.

[Andy74]

Hearts pay more money for players and to players than we do. FACT.

Hearts spend money they don't have. They spend more on wages than their turnover. They afford this by adding to their debt. FACT.

Hibs don't spend money they don't have, or at least don't pursue the same policy. FACT.

Hearts are doing better than us on the field. FACT

In other leagues, Germany and France (I think) - you are not allowed to operate at a loss and/or get in to debt, as it creates an artificial competitive advantage.

That is what Hearts have done - created an artificial competitive advantage. Why should anyone be either surprised or embarrassed by their position versus ours? :confused:

I think of it this way - we've all probably worked with people or known neighbours who were always driving new cars, wearing flashy clothes, and going on nice holidays. Yet you knew they didn't have the disposable cash to do this so must have had access to credit.

That's Hertz - they get a few thousand extra on their gate, they're not a big club, but they think they are.

Yep, it's impossible to ignore their fianncial position because that is what is driving their results on the pitch. They are paying double our wages at least and that simply gets you more options and better players.

We need to let them get on with it, concentrate on getting back where we should be performance wise and the future will go where it goes. I'm not sure I'd back them to keep running the club this way for much longer. Yes, there's been lots of stories about going out of business but it's all adding up tp getting nearer that position all the time.

And it's a few hundred they get extra in crowds these days, with them on a great run and us doing very poorly.

[blackpoolhibs]

Yep, it's impossible to ignore their fianncial position because that is what is driving their results on the pitch. They are paying double our wages at least and that simply gets you more options and better players.

We need to let them get on with it, concentrate on getting back where we should be performance wise and the future will go where it goes. I'm not sure I'd back them to keep running the club this way for much longer. Yes, there's been lots of stories about going out of business but it's all adding up tp getting nearer that position all the time.

And it's a few hundred they get extra in crowds these days, with them on a great run and us doing very poorly.

You could also say thats the case with us and Killie or Hamilton or Inverness, even St Johnstone and St Mirren, yet we are hardly running away from them in the league.

[HFC 0-7]

Yep, it's impossible to ignore their fianncial position because that is what is driving their results on the pitch. They are paying double our wages at least and that simply gets you more options and better players.

We need to let them get on with it, concentrate on getting back where we should be performance wise and the future will go where it goes. I'm not sure I'd back them to keep running the club this way for much longer. Yes, there's been lots of stories about going out of business but it's all adding up tp getting nearer that position all the time.

And it's a few hundred they get extra in crowds these days, with them on a great run and us doing very poorly.

Re the bit in bold, they basically have the same squad as last season just a couple of additions. The real reason for their form is down to their manager IMO. the hunger and desire is there which isnt down to money its down to the manager demanding it and the players responding. For a while now hibs have had the problem where the players are not adhering to the managers demands. Now this is where I would say there is no problem in looking across at our neighbours and trying to replicate that and worrying why they can do it and we cant especially when they have to go through adverse circumstances like not being paid.

Money is a part of why team will be better, but I am sure that no manager would just accept that because they pay more they will always be better, not between hibs and hearts anyway.

When we are better than them everything is rosey, when they are better than us we choose not to acknowledge anything good about them but instead choose to accept defeat in that they pay more but their end will come. It has been a good few years now and their end is no closer, in fact I would say that I doubt it will ever happen. Barcelona and Man U are silly with money and at times look out their depth. Did Barcelona not have to take a loan out to pay wages?

My point is that because they are our bitter rivals we choose to put the blinkers on and not concern ourselves with them when they are better than us, but when we are better than them we find some of us rather talking about how crap they are instead of how good we are.

[truehibernian]

Re the bit in bold, they basically have the same squad as last season just a couple of additions. The real reason for their form is down to their manager IMO. the hunger and desire is there which isnt down to money its down to the manager demanding it and the players responding. For a while now hibs have had the problem where the players are not adhering to the managers demands. Now this is where I would say there is no problem in looking across at our neighbours and trying to replicate that and worrying why they can do it and we cant especially when they have to go through adverse circumstances like not being paid.

Money is a part of why team will be better, but I am sure that no manager would just accept that because they pay more they will always be better, not between hibs and hearts anyway.

When we are better than them everything is rosey, when they are better than us we choose not to acknowledge anything good about them but instead choose to accept defeat in that they pay more but their end will come. It has been a good few years now and their end is no closer, in fact I would say that I doubt it will ever happen. Barcelona and Man U are silly with money and at times look out their depth. Did Barcelona not have to take a loan out to pay wages?

My point is that because they are our bitter rivals we choose to put the blinkers on and not concern ourselves with them when they are better than us, but when we are better than them we find some of us rather talking about how crap they are instead of how good we are.

Yep, see what you are saying there, but I had a chat with one of the Hearts coaches the day after the last derby.

They were (believe it or not) worried in the opening 20 minutes that if Hibs had scored, with our early possession and getting behind the left back, Hearts would have gone into themselves. There was a big concern that we were getting a hold of the game, and prior to this run they are on, their management team were concerned at the way they sometimes reacted to going behind.

I think you are 100% right. At this moment in time they have a settled side, good management, good tactics.....and bags of confidence. Football can change though as we saw ourselves at the turn of the year.

Hibs though is what we should all be concentrating on, and certainly not getting all anxious about Hearts IMHO. They are playing well so let them enjoy it. Our time will come this season too.

[Cropley10]

Re the bit in bold, they basically have the same squad as last season just a couple of additions. The real reason for their form is down to their manager IMO. the hunger and desire is there which isnt down to money its down to the manager demanding it and the players responding. For a while now hibs have had the problem where the players are not adhering to the managers demands. Now this is where I would say there is no problem in looking across at our neighbours and trying to replicate that and worrying why they can do it and we cant especially when they have to go through adverse circumstances like not being paid.

Money is a part of why team will be better, but I am sure that no manager would just accept that because they pay more they will always be better, not between hibs and hearts anyway.

When we are better than them everything is rosey, when they are better than us we choose not to acknowledge anything good about them but instead choose to accept defeat in that they pay more but their end will come. It has been a good few years now and their end is no closer, in fact I would say that I doubt it will ever happen. Barcelona and Man U are silly with money and at times look out their depth. Did Barcelona not have to take a loan out to pay wages?

My point is that because they are our bitter rivals we choose to put the blinkers on and not concern ourselves with them when they are better than us, but when we are better than them we find some of us rather talking about how crap they are instead of how good we are.

OK, take out the financial aspect for a moment and put to one side what might or might not happen at some stage in the future with regards to that.

How many Hibs players would get in to the Hearts team? And vice versa?

I think you're being a bit simplistic to say they have the same squad with a couple of additions. That couple includes:

2 strikers - when they had none last year. Skacel - who far from being past it seems to be an inspired signing. The Polish boy Mrowic (sp) who Hertz fans tell me is doing a great job in front of their back four. Then there's Templeton looks like a real talent, who is developing all the time. It's more about who they've lost rather than signed perversely - Stewart, Nade, Jose, Kingston....

We can benchmark ourselves to death - but I'd say that any benchmark would tell you that they have better players and a very experienced (SPL) manager.

And how many of those Hertz players would earn more at Hibs? Or vice versa?

[Big Frank]

Hertz can kiss my fat one!

Screw them

Hibs and Hibs only.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Like any supporter of a club in a 2 team town its great to see your own team doing well and even better when the other lot are doing badly at the same time.

So when the roles are reversed you cant deny that it is very very annoying.

But I cant help thinking that in the days leading up to every derby the Yams backroom staff are hammering into their players that its a disaster to lose the game and that anything less than giving 100% will not be talerated. I am also lead to believe that the first thing any new Yam player learns is that whatever happens you must beat the Hibs.

Now this may not be true, but I have to say that in a significant number of derby matches it has looked to me like it means more to their players collectively than it does ours.

I may be blowing hot air here, but the respective derby records of both teams would suggest that there could be something in this theory.

Anyway .... Whatever the situation at the Yams I wish that this would happen at Easter Road and that our players, be they from Liberton or Liberia, are left in no doubt that losing any derby is a disaster and bloody unacceptable !!!

[HFC 0-7]

OK, take out the financial aspect for a moment and put to one side what might or might not happen at some stage in the future with regards to that.

How many Hibs players would get in to the Hearts team? And vice versa?

I think you're being a bit simplistic to say they have the same squad with a couple of additions. That couple includes:

2 strikers - when they had none last year. Skacel - who far from being past it seems to be an inspired signing. The Polish boy Mrowic (sp) who Hertz fans tell me is doing a great job in front of their back four. Then there's Templeton looks like a real talent, who is developing all the time. It's more about who they've lost rather than signed perversely - Stewart, Nade, Jose, Kingston....

We can benchmark ourselves to death - but I'd say that any benchmark would tell you that they have better players and a very experienced (SPL) manager.

And how many of those Hertz players would earn more at Hibs? Or vice versa?

They brought in 3 players of note, Skacel, Kyle and Mroweic. This is what I am talking about. Why are hearts better than Hibs because they brought in these types of players. A big no nonsence target man, a midfielder that can score and a player that strengthens the back 4. IMO these players are prime for the SPL but at the same time are nothing too special. These are the types that hibs should be trying to sign.

When looking at being better than your peers you need to look at how they are doing things but also why and trying to replicate that and better it within your own budget. Hearts are doing well because they have the right players for the SPL. Technically their players arent any better than hibs players in many positions, the difference is their player are more adapted to the SPL. The way they play too. What is wrong with looking at your rivals, using some of their techniques and adding to them as well in an attempt to be better?

Look at yogi, he done things his own way and it would seem didnt look at other successful teams in the SPL. He tried the silky approach, passing all the way. It failed. Any manager wanting to suceed will surely look at what other successful and experienced managers in that league are doing. The only way you can do anything different is if you can bring in significantly better players which hibs will never be able to do.

[Alfred E Newman]

Hopefully. But while I'm not obsessed with hearts like some on here I do find it extremely depressing that they are 3 points behind celtc and all these points ahead of us. Especially when some experts on here have been continually telling us for the last 5 years that they're going out of business.

These tedious threads are just wishfull thinking unfortunately. I am more concerned about Hibs perilous position at the moment than Hearts run of form though it would be nice if we could challenge at the top end of the league as regularly as they do .

[Cropley10]

They brought in 3 players of note, Skacel, Kyle and Mroweic. This is what I am talking about. Why are hearts better than Hibs because they brought in these types of players. A big no nonsence target man, a midfielder that can score and a player that strengthens the back 4. IMO these players are prime for the SPL but at the same time are nothing too special. These are the types that hibs should be trying to sign.

When looking at being better than your peers you need to look at how they are doing things but also why and trying to replicate that and better it within your own budget. Hearts are doing well because they have the right players for the SPL. Technically their players arent any better than hibs players in many positions, the difference is their player are more adapted to the SPL. The way they play too. What is wrong with looking at your rivals, using some of their techniques and adding to them as well in an attempt to be better?

Look at yogi, he done things his own way and it would seem didnt look at other successful teams in the SPL. He tried the silky approach, passing all the way. It failed. Any manager wanting to suceed will surely look at what other successful and experienced managers in that league are doing. The only way you can do anything different is if you can bring in significantly better players which hibs will never be able to do.

Sorry I'm not sure what your point is, so I hope you don't mind but I've highlighted some parts in bold.

Hearts have signed players who went to Hearts because they pay more I'd suggest. These types of players - who are adapted to the SPL as you put it, command a premium, a premium we won't pay. I'd also suggest that there is a big difference technically between the two squads - tell me who you think would get in to the Hearts team from the Hibs squad...

[Jones28]

Hopefully. But while I'm not obsessed with hearts like some on here I do find it extremely depressing that they are 3 points behind celtc and all these points ahead of us. Especially when some experts on here have been continually telling us for the last 5 years that they're going out of business.

Best just to concentrate on the fortunes of your own team rather than let the Hearts results get you down...

Hibs are *****e enough, they dont need their help :wink:

Winning at Tynecastle would be magic, especially as I am spending New Year with my unfortunately maroon festooned grandad. But Hearts are on a role and at this rate it would not surprise me at all if they ended up second or worse.

Hibs are a team in transition, and Tbh I had this season written off as soon as Yogi left. Doesnt bother as long as they come back stronger than ever at the start of the next! :flag:

[HFC 0-7]

Sorry I'm not sure what your point is, so I hope you don't mind but I've highlighted some parts in bold.

Hearts have signed players who went to Hearts because they pay more I'd suggest. These types of players - who are adapted to the SPL as you put it, command a premium, a premium we won't pay. I'd also suggest that there is a big difference technically between the two squads - tell me who you think would get in to the Hearts team from the Hibs squad...

I dont think these types of player demand a massive premium, we have managed to get top notch players in the past that are suited to the SPL, stokes being a prime example. In regard to their technical ability, I dont think they have much more technical ability than the hibs squad, they are just a much more physical, organised and hungry team. They have players that when the chips are down they will not hide. We on the other hand have players that are capable of turning it on, but definately NOT when the chips are down.

These players that I am talking about that are adapted for the SPL dont have to carry a premium. Hearts are silly in that they seem to just pay high wages and no negotiation takes place. Motherwell, Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock have players on their books that are adapted for the SPL, we could afford these players.

[BEEJ]

Hibs are a team in transition,
Permanently. :rolleyes:

Seemingly destined always to be on a journey but never arriving.


and Tbh I had this season written off as soon as Yogi left.
Most people had it written off long before, while Yogi was still in the Hibs dugout.

[truehibernian]

I dont think these types of player demand a massive premium, we have managed to get top notch players in the past that are suited to the SPL, stokes being a prime example. In regard to their technical ability, I dont think they have much more technical ability than the hibs squad, they are just a much more physical, organised and hungry team. They have players that when the chips are down they will not hide. We on the other hand have players that are capable of turning it on, but definately NOT when the chips are down.

These players that I am talking about that are adapted for the SPL dont have to carry a premium. Hearts are silly in that they seem to just pay high wages and no negotiation takes place. Motherwell, Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock have players on their books that are adapted for the SPL, we could afford these players.

The last part of your post I would agree with, however it will be very very interesting to see where the likes of Well, Utd and Killie are in 3 seasons time and just what standard of player they can attract. Well seem to be reliant on loans and youth system, and the money put in by one man alone. United's fans have already had a stark warning from their own chairman and owner that the wallet is fast getting empty and his family will not continue to fund the club as it has in the past. They (for me) are in a more perilous medium term position as they don't seem to have a strong youth system in place despite Levein demanding one. They certainly lack facilities. Kilmarnock have relied this season on a creditor not calling in a loan and essentially wiping off a portion of the debt owed, yet still find themselves mired in debt and relying on loan deals too (with no real youth poliy either it seems).

Hibs, don't get me wrong, will not be immune from the money problems that will come (recession and cuts really bite and attendances and income reduces further). But due to the club being run well and spending wisely, albeit not as much on the team/product as we would all like, we now have all the things a top level professional football club would need to progress, from first team to youths.

Every club in Scotland now is relying on transfer income to break even or run at smaller losses. Some are now also relying on owners cutting their losses. Not a good sign for their futures.

I suppose when people use the phrase "Hibs are still in transition", we all kind of miss the point that we are (because we are in fan mode and want instant success)........the board said years ago that they are running to a mid term strategy of building up the infrastructure and at the same time trying to remain competitive at the top end of the league. First part of that is complete, and the second part we could argue they have achieved too. We won a cup, got into Europe twice, been in the top 6 for the most part.

I think in the next two seasons we (hopefully) will see the football product getting developed, and for me, I hope the youth system looked at and enhanced.

[sunshine1875]

I think that at the start of this season, the best I had hoped for was that we get in a new manager who can give me confidence that he actually knows what he is doing and that we un-earth a few prospects that will give me confidence for the 2011/12 season.

Even pre-season, I could see us finishing bottom six and did also worry that we could even get relegated given our end of last season form. With respect to Hertz, I saw them getting stronger under Jeffries and both pieces of this jigsaw told me that they would finish above us and probably well above us.

So, am I embarassed? No! I don't like it, but I hope that we will become stronger for it. We really do need Calderwood to make the right choices over the next six months or next season could be similar to this season.

My fear is that Hertz will grow stronger at a faster rate than us. They have a good manager who is being left to make the right decisions and he is building a good team. For us, Calderwood is still finding his feet and his ability to get the right player in has not been tested yet. A crucial six month period beckons!

[BEEJ]

I suppose when people use the phrase "Hibs are still in transition", we all kind of miss the point that we are (because we are in fan mode and want instant success).
That 'expectation' (presumably only ever in evidence amongst a deluded minority of the Hibs faithful) must have finally died many seasons ago.

There is nothing 'instant' about it. Hasn't been for a long, long time. Signs of some steady progress would do me.


I think in the next two seasons we (hopefully) will see the football product getting developed, and for me, I hope the youth system looked at and enhanced.
This has now become one of the club's mantras. We endlessly talk about the possibility of progress 'in the next couple of seasons' while other clubs, many with more serious problems than our own, seem to find ways of just getting on and doing it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think we have to win on ne'erday to save our season or it will be embarassing.

I think staying in the SPL has to be our main concern.

[new malkyhib]

But how do you suggest we 'benchmark' ourselves against a Club who spend a great deal more than we do. When all is said and done paying more should mean better quality. Hearts have better quality throughout - there's no doubt about that IMHO.

JJ has been in this league for donkeys. He has good staff alongside him. Yes he has players who work hard, and we can definitely compete and compare on that front but we can't ignore the fact that their approach off the field is the opposite of ours.

As I said before - they're not a big club, they have only a few more thousand fans than we do - and they spend, as a proportion of that, far more than we do. Sooner or later that has to count, and it is now.

I'd be interested to understand what we should be 'benchmarking'...:confused:

In Scottish terms they are a "big" club, Cropley - as are the Hibs. Difference as I see it is they have a different mindset there than we do - which pre-dates Romanov, BTW.

They expect to be in the top 3 of the league, and challenging for the title once in a while - Hibs fans expectation has been lowered to such an extent that we don't... and some on here - and fair play to them it's all about opinions, ultimately, - prefer to comfort themselves with the balance sheet argument, which I find baffling, TBH.

And in a two-team city playing in the same league as your rivals you're going to be compared against them, like it or no'.

They're not going bust anytime soon either, and the other counterpoint regarding "we're in transition, give it another season or two" is starting to wear thin as well.

I've held a season ticket for more years than I care to remember, but I go these days more because it gets my old man out the house - but even i'm giving serious consideration to picking and choosing my games next year - and I already know half-a-dozen long standing ST holders who've given their ticket up because in their words, "there's nowt worth watching at Easter Road just now".

Time for everyone at ER to reach a wee bit higher IMO - they might just be surprised as to how the fans buy into it, and the club might gain a bit momentum for a change...

[Lucius Apuleius]

Embarrassed? Never in my life have I been embarrassed to support Hibernian FC, as I have said many times before.
Disappointed, yes, somewhat jealous at times. However no matter how bad life is, and it can be pretty damn crummy at times, I wake up in the morning, walk into the loo, look myself in the mirror and say " at least you are still a Hibby my son"

GGTTH.

[sunshine1875]

Embarrassed? Never in my life have I been embarrassed to support Hibernian FC, as I have said many times before.
Disappointed, yes, somewhat jealous at times. However no matter how bad life is, and it can be pretty damn crummy at times, I wake up in the morning, walk into the loo, look myself in the mirror and say " at least you are still a Hibby my son"

GGTTH.

"For me, it was Hibs, first, last and always." Lawrie Reilly

[Baldy Foghorn]

Embarrassed? Never in my life have I been embarrassed to support Hibernian FC, as I have said many times before.
Disappointed, yes, somewhat jealous at times. However no matter how bad life is, and it can be pretty damn crummy at times, I wake up in the morning, walk into the loo, look myself in the mirror and say " at least you are still a Hibby my son"

GGTTH.

:top marks:top marks

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[matty_f]

Sorry I'm not sure what your point is, so I hope you don't mind but I've highlighted some parts in bold.

Hearts have signed players who went to Hearts because they pay more I'd suggest. These types of players - who are adapted to the SPL as you put it, command a premium, a premium we won't pay. I'd also suggest that there is a big difference technically between the two squads - tell me who you think would get in to the Hearts team from the Hibs squad...

I agree with what you're saying - Hearts have gone for specific players that Hibs have gone for and paid more than we can afford (Barr, Kyle, Black - they even tried it with Riordan FFS).

That undoubtedly gives them a competitive edge if we're then forced to go for a second or third choice player as a result.

The fact that there are examples of specific players backs your argument up extremely well, IMHO.

[HFC 0-7]

I agree with what you're saying - Hearts have gone for specific players that Hibs have gone for and paid more than we can afford (Barr, Kyle, Black - they even tried it with Riordan FFS).

That undoubtedly gives them a competitive edge if we're then forced to go for a second or third choice player as a result.

The fact that there are examples of specific players backs your argument up extremely well, IMHO.

Barr, Kyle and Black? There are players that are afforable that are just as good as these players. If Motherwell can get the likes of John Sutton then Hibs can. Barr has shown nothing so far but again there are other out their like Kenneth. Ian Black? Jury is out on him for me, mediocre player but his grit and determination, somewhat like Rankin. Difference is that they have players around black thats can help out, we dont.

Hibs just dont seem to want to try and get players from teams around us, they would much rather get players from down south, which is OK if they are good enough but to many times its not the case. Hearts have made 2 additions to their team which have turned things around and those players are Skacel and Kyle. IMO player like Kyle can be picked up quite easily but because of in the past hibs wanted attractive, on the floor passing style we have opted not to go for these types.

Hearts dont care how they win matches, own goals, penalties, hoofball. And therefore build a team of ruthless strong guys. Hibs have been trying the glamorous approach of silky passing. It has left us with a bunch of small lightweights that seem a bit scared of a hard match. We only seem to win games if the opposition let us play a bit, ie, teams that feel they are good enough to beat us by doing what they do insteadof stopping us playing.

Whith that in mind, what is wrong with looking at hearts or any other team above us and figuring out what type of player and what type of football they choose to play that is successful? You would never get anywhere in any business if you just concentrated on what you were doing and didnt bother looking at what the opposition was doing.

[matty_f]

Barr, Kyle and Black? There are players that are afforable that are just as good as these players. If Motherwell can get the likes of John Sutton then Hibs can. Barr has shown nothing so far but again there are other out their like Kenneth. Ian Black? Jury is out on him for me, mediocre player but his grit and determination, somewhat like Rankin. Difference is that they have players around black thats can help out, we dont.

Hibs just dont seem to want to try and get players from teams around us, they would much rather get players from down south, which is OK if they are good enough but to many times its not the case. Hearts have made 2 additions to their team which have turned things around and those players are Skacel and Kyle. IMO player like Kyle can be picked up quite easily but because of in the past hibs wanted attractive, on the floor passing style we have opted not to go for these types.

Hearts dont care how they win matches, own goals, penalties, hoofball. And therefore build a team of ruthless strong guys. Hibs have been trying the glamorous approach of silky passing. It has left us with a bunch of small lightweights that seem a bit scared of a hard match. We only seem to win games if the opposition let us play a bit, ie, teams that feel they are good enough to beat us by doing what they do insteadof stopping us playing.

Whith that in mind, what is wrong with looking at hearts or any other team above us and figuring out what type of player and what type of football they choose to play that is successful? You would never get anywhere in any business if you just concentrated on what you were doing and didnt bother looking at what the opposition was doing.

I get what you're saying about these players, but my intention wasn't to start a debate on the merits of these guys or to say whether or not we're capable of identifying better (I think we are, or should be) but just to make the point that you have to take the Yams' willingness to overspend as a factor in why they're performing better than us and one indisputable line of logic is that had we been able to better the Yams' wages by the same factor that they did ours, we would have at least three of their current squad at Easter Road.

[truehibernian]

I think you can quite easily compare the current Hearts team to the Hibs team under McLeish.

Alex put togethere a great blend of power and skill. He also had leaders from back to front. However......what Alex also had was a sizeable budget to allow him to bring in the likes of Sauzee, Mixu, Lovell, Jack, Laursen and O'Neill.

If you look at all his sides, he tends to do what JJ does and find a good balance of strength with a little bit of frills. In Latapy he had the magician with tricks. With O'Neill the workrate and energy. Lovell had some lovely touches. Jack was no nonsense.

Laursen, Hughes, Suazee, Fenwick and co were all big lads, with big hearts, and in the case of Sauzee and Laursen, skill and talent in bucketloads.

Up front we had the power and strength of Mixu and the guile and pace of Zitelli and a young Miller.

If you map the Hearts side against those names, you pretty much have the kind of balanced side we would like to see. Oh for another Franck or Russell :boo hoo:

[HFC 0-7]

I get what you're saying about these players, but my intention wasn't to start a debate on the merits of these guys or to say whether or not we're capable of identifying better (I think we are, or should be) but just to make the point that you have to take the Yams' willingness to overspend as a factor in why they're performing better than us and one indisputable line of logic is that had we been able to better the Yams' wages by the same factor that they did ours, we would have at least three of their current squad at Easter Road.

No one is talking about how much they spend etc, most of the debate on here is whether you take note of what they are doing or you dont and why.

My point is that we are never going to win the league so our goal is to be the best of the rest. When we are we rave about it when we are not we dust off the good old 'we are in transition, our time will come' line. When we are better than hearts we let rip about how crap they are and how good we are. When they are better than us we moan about them spending more money than us on wages etc.

Money does make a difference, but the gulf between hearts and hibs shouldnt make the difference we are seeing at the moment, thats whats embarrassing and thats why we should take note of what they are doing.

Their club is a shambles from top to bottom, they fail to pay their wages, there is constant dreams about large stadiums etc etc. They are all this and can still do what matters, win on the pitch. This isnt down to money, its about obtaining players with the correct attitude.

If money is the driver here to the extent you say, why did we better them last season, why are we 4th bottom, why are ICT 4th 11 points and 16 goals better?

The money thing is a factor yes, but it is still embarrasing that we have fallen so short in such little time.

[fatbloke]

No need to be embarrassed.

We are a team in transition. Results will improve once our new team is in place and is given time to settle.

Hearts went through this last season.

Despite what people would have you believe, Celtic and Rangers have actually improved on last season when Rangers ended up 24 points clear of third place.

Embarrassment is probably the wrong word. I just hate having to listen to those f*****g moronic imbeciles in maroon, blue or green white and gold wi their stupid grins and smart ar5e comments re ourselves. As one poster earlier said they all invariably seem to want it more than us and this has been the way of it for a long, long time. Perhaps we are too nice a club and need to grow a pair and get a nasty streak about us. It seems to work elsewhere, OF and the Deluded Ones being prime examples, clubs with no scruples and a short supply of pleasantness about them.

[fatbloke]

Embarrassed? Never in my life have I been embarrassed to support Hibernian FC, as I have said many times before.
Disappointed, yes, somewhat jealous at times. However no matter how bad life is, and it can be pretty damn crummy at times, I wake up in the morning, walk into the loo, look myself in the mirror and say " at least you are still a Hibby my son"

GGTTH.

Embarrassed? Never in my life have I been embarrassed to support Hibernian FC, as I have said many times before.
Disappointed, yes, somewhat jealous at times. However no matter how bad life is, and it can be pretty damn crummy at times, I wake up in the morning, walk into the loo, look myself in the mirror and say " at least you are still a Hibby my son"

GGTTH.