Scottish Government response to snow / transport problems: Stevenson resigns (merged)

[Hibbyradge]

No wonder the met office didn't see the snow coming.

It sneakily ganged up against us at the last minute!

Click on 1500, at the top left of the image, then press the play button and you'll see the weather develop since yesterday.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/satpics/latest_IR.html

[Betty Boop]

According to an update from Reporting Scotland the motorway network is closed, with hundreds of drivers trapped in their vehicles. Some of the drivers on the M8 have been stuck for 10 hours. The ambulance service is reportedly using army vehicles to attend emergencies. Scary stuff indeed !

[Removed]

According to an update from Reporting Scotland the motorway network is closed, with hundreds of drivers trapped in their vehicles. Some of the drivers on the M8 have been stuck for 10 hours. The ambulance service is reportedly using army vehicles to attend emergencies. Scary stuff indeed !

2 of my team stuck between 3 and 3a after leaving the gyle at half 1. Nightmare.

[lyonhibs]

No wonder the met office didn't see the snow coming.

It sneakily ganged up against us at the last minute!

Click on 1500, at the top left of the image, then press the play button and you'll see the weather develop since yesterday.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/satpics/latest_IR.html

I assume you're joking.

There's a band of cloud - I assume snow laden - hanging over the central belt from about 8 am this morning!!

[lyonhibs]

2 of my team stuck between 3 and 3a after leaving the gyle at half 1. Nightmare.

I've got 2 mates stuck in the M8 - 5 miles in 7 hours and looking like an all-nighter.

This **** just got real - I hadn't really taken on board how much snow has fallen and how poorly prepared Scotland's infrastructure has been because down here in Oxford, precisiely **** all has fallen since a measely effort last Thursday.

[derekHFC]

Devis Advocate here, but should people really be travelling on the M8, etc knowing how bad the weather was?

Ok, so this wasnt forecast until around 10pm last night, but from then, everyone knew that today was going to be one of our worst days so why the hell do people travel, etc when it was evident from even 6:45am this morning that it was going to be difficult conditions?

[sleeping giant]

Decided to turn back today and a round trip to the Livi roundabout on the A899 from Broxburn took me 3hrs.

Should be in Northumberland tomorrow ! I would imagine the roads will be drivable if there is no more snow fall.

I've not done any work since the 26th Nov !

Mental.

Hope everyone gets home ok from the M8.

[I'm_cabbaged]

Decided to turn back today and a round trip to the Livi roundabout on the A899 from Broxburn took me 3hrs.

Should be in Northumberland tomorrow ! I would imagine the roads will be drivable if there is no more snow fall.

I've not done any work since the 26th Nov !

Mental.

Hope everyone gets home ok from the M8.

Have a look at the live cams on traffic Scotland, not going anywhere fast!! :bitchy:

[SRHibs]

Took me 3 hours in a car to get from Stevenson College to East Craigs today. Absolute ****ing nightmare.

[hibiedude]

Devis Advocate here, but should people really be travelling on the M8, etc knowing how bad the weather was?

Ok, so this wasnt forecast until around 10pm last night, but from then, everyone knew that today was going to be one of our worst days so why the hell do people travel, etc when it was evident from even 6:45am this morning that it was going to be difficult conditions?

There are many reasons why people have to travel or do you expect everyone to stay at home?

People trying to get to work (those who have work to go too)
Hospital appointment (like dialyses or cancer appointments)
Taking there kids to school (those schools and colleges that are open)
Delivery vehicles (food and fuel deliveries)

So its kind of daft suggesting everyone should have stayed at home

[Betty Boop]

Devis Advocate here, but should people really be travelling on the M8, etc knowing how bad the weather was?

Ok, so this wasnt forecast until around 10pm last night, but from then, everyone knew that today was going to be one of our worst days so why the hell do people travel, etc when it was evident from even 6:45am this morning that it was going to be difficult conditions?

According to the Scottish Transport Minister, Stewart Stevenson on Newsnight, the weather was unforecastable.

[Westie1875]

According to the Scottish Transport Minister, Stewart Stevenson on Newsnight, the weather was unforecastable.

Clearly they didn't check, at 9pm - ish on Sunday night it was showing on the bbc as forecast to snow heavily on Monday in Edinburgh from around 6am until midday.

[hibiedude]

According to the Scottish Transport Minister, Stewart Stevenson on Newsnight, the weather was unforecastable.

I'm with you Betty if things were that predictable then someone should have informed the Gritters because there was nothing until the snow started at 08.00 and by 09.30 the roads in West Lothian were grid locked.

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t

[Twa Cairpets]

I've got 2 mates stuck in the M8 - 5 miles in 7 hours and looking like an all-nighter.

This **** just got real - I hadn't really taken on board how much snow has fallen and how poorly prepared Scotland's infrastructure has been because down here in Oxford, precisiely **** all has fallen since a measely effort last Thursday.

Is it not possible that it is less the infrastructure is unprepared but more the collective nation is unprepared?

Listening to the radio and watching TV, people come out with things like "I've been stuck here for 5 hours and I havent seen a gritter". That would be because you are stuck and presumably so is the gritter.

Tens of thousands of cars and wagons on a main route at rush hour when the snow drops in huge amounts is unmanageable. in good weather a bump or breakdown causes a mile long tailback in something like 10-15 minutes so in weather like yesterday what chance did people, or the authorities have?

While thousands of people will have had critical journeys to make yesterday, many of those stuck wouldn't have been on vital journeys and were just very unlucky. When people say "Why cant we be like Norway/Canada/etc", its not just the authorities response but peoples preparedness to adapt.

[derekHFC]

There are many reasons why people have to travel or do you expect everyone to stay at home?

People trying to get to work (those who have work to go too)
Hospital appointment (like dialyses or cancer appointments)
Taking there kids to school (those schools and colleges that are open)
Delivery vehicles (food and fuel deliveries)

So its kind of daft suggesting everyone should have stayed at home

At no point did i say that everyone should stay at home.

I'm just pointing out that there are people out there making meaningless journies when they can easily walk or use public transport (if its on). For example, does someone who stays in Leith and works at the Gyle really need to use their car (on normal days) when we have a perfectly good bus service? Some probably do get the bus, but most take the car out of convenience!

I've used my car on plenty of occasions when I shouldn't have, but commonsense should prevail in conditions like we've had the last 2-3 weeks and people should be leaving cars at home unless it is an absolutely essential journey!


According to the Scottish Transport Minister, Stewart Stevenson on Newsnight, the weather was unforecastable.

See below :agree:


Clearly they didn't check, at 9pm - ish on Sunday night it was showing on the bbc as forecast to snow heavily on Monday in Edinburgh from around 6am until midday.

[lapsedhibee]

Clearly they didn't check, at 9pm - ish on Sunday night it was showing on the bbc as forecast to snow heavily on Monday in Edinburgh from around 6am until midday.

:agree: Checked at 10pm and the Met Office was forecasting heavy snow at 9am, continuing till noon. Possible that snow was so heavy and temperature so low that gritters and ploughs between them still couldn't have kept the M8 open, but the Stevenson boy was telling pure porkies.

[sleeping giant]

Carnage still !!

About turned at the bottom of my street this morning.

A89 was gridlocked in both directions. M8 shut from jct 1-5.

[Hibbyradge]

I assume you're joking.

There's a band of cloud - I assume snow laden - hanging over the central belt from about 8 am this morning!!

When I first looked at the satellite, it went back as far as 1500 on Sunday.

That band of cloud hadn't formed by then.

[hibiedude]

At no point did i say that everyone should stay at home.

I'm just pointing out that there are people out there making meaningless journies when they can easily walk or use public transport (if its on). For example, does someone who stays in Leith and works at the Gyle really need to use their car (on normal days) when we have a perfectly good bus service? Some probably do get the bus, but most take the car out of convenience!

I've used my car on plenty of occasions when I shouldn't have, but commonsense should prevail in conditions like we've had the last 2-3 weeks and people should be leaving cars at home unless it is an absolutely essential journey!

Essential journey's is people going about the daily business like going to school or work- if the weather forecast was reported as more severe snow conditions for Monday why the authorities didn’t close all schools and colleges in the effected areas is a bigger question in my opinion.
That would have kept many thousands of people in their homes meaning the chaos we seen yesterday would never have been as bad as it was.

[derekHFC]

Essential journey's is people going about the daily business like going to school or work- if the weather forecast was reported as more severe snow conditions for Monday why the authorities didn’t close all schools and colleges in the effected areas is a bigger question in my opinion.
That would have kept many thousands of people in their homes meaning the chaos we seen yesterday would never have been as bad as it was.

Can people not get buses or trains to school and work though and is it necessary for everyone to take their cars everywhere?

I'm not saying i disagree with you, i'm just playing :devil: advocate as i said :greengrin

[hibiedude]

Can people not get buses or trains to school and work though and is it necessary for everyone to take their cars everywhere?

I'm not saying i disagree with you, i'm just playing :devil: advocate as i said :greengrin

I hear what your saying and I agree but the farce we had on Monday was Local buses in west Lothian were cancelled but schools and colleges were open untill late afternoon.

The kids had no chance of getting home unless parents used their cars

[Speedy]

I hear what your saying and I agree but the farce we had on Monday was Local buses in west Lothian were cancelled but schools and colleges were open untill late afternoon.

The kids had no chance of getting home unless parents used their cars

:agree:

I needed to go from my girlfriend's house(near murrayfield) to my mum's house(in gorebridge). I had the car but decided to take the bus instead.

I got the bus at 10.53am, got a bus to the bridges and eventually got on a 3a(which finishes at Gorebridge) and the driver said he was going as far as he could. I then found out, when I was around Cameron Toll, that the services were suspended so I didn't know whether to stay on a bus that might not have been able to get me my my mum's or get off and turn round but risk not being able to get another bus. In the end I decided to stay on the bus and luckily it managed to get to Gorebridge at about 2pm.

Anyway, my point was that it isn't surprising that people want to take their cars because then at least they are in control of where they go(or don't go). If I was in the situation again I would definitely give more consideration to taking the car.

[hibiedude]

:agree:

I needed to go from my girlfriend's house(near murrayfield) to my mum's house(in gorebridge). I had the car but decided to take the bus instead.

I got the bus at 10.53am, got a bus to the bridges and eventually got on a 3a(which finishes at Gorebridge) and the driver said he was going as far as he could. I then found out, when I was around Cameron Toll, that the services were suspended so I didn't know whether to stay on a bus that might not have been able to get me my my mum's or get off and turn round but risk not being able to get another bus. In the end I decided to stay on the bus and luckily it managed to get to Gorebridge at about 2pm.

Anyway, my point was that it isn't surprising that people want to take their cars because then at least they are in control of where they go(or don't go). If I was in the situation again I would definitely give more consideration to taking the car.

Good reply

I started my work at 06.00am yesterday to give a hand in clearing the car parks and at 8.00 the snow started and by 09.30 the conditions on the roads were chaos but the decision to close my work wasn't made untill 14.00 a full 5 hours after all local bus services were cancelled.

I think that was the problem yesterday in west Lothian everyone tried to go home at the same time meaning chaos on the roads

I left my car in the multi-story car park in livi overnight because it was quicker walking home which took me just under 3 hours.

Walking home was the only way to travel yesterday because traffic was going nowhere and infact I seen 2 fights taking place due to road rage :greengrin

[lyonhibs]

When I first looked at the satellite, it went back as far as 1500 on Sunday.

That band of cloud hadn't formed by then.

Ah I see :greengrin

Still, seemingly heavy snow was forecast on the late news on Sunday night, and seemingly no pre-emptive action was taken :confused:

[IFONLY]

I think it will be off...... Are you concerned about the motorway conditions for the supporter's bus Tsm?


Depends what happens in the next few days but I have no confidence in the Scottish government to do anything positive about the state of the roads

[IFONLY]

]Bit difficult to see what exactly they can do about 2-3 inches of solid ice o.n a motorway[/B] We can girn all we like - people know what needs to be done but the men, machinery and resources simply aren't in place to meet the demand. Something to do with the shift to private contractors being responsible for raod-clearing as opposed to the local authorities? And too many people listening to too much guff about global warming....

As far as the Hamilton game goes, roads in North Lanarkshire are pretty appalling right now, so I wouldn't hold my breath. IF the weekend thaw comes, fine; but there's a lot of white stuff to be shifted before life gets back to normal....

Try telling that to the hundreds of motorists stranded on the motorway.What they can do is be prepared. Weather warnings where quite clear there was going to be a lot of snow but Stewart Stevenson chose to ignore this warning and now we have to live with the disruption.

[Hibbyradge]

Try telling that to the hundreds of motorists stranded on the motorway.What they can do is be prepared. Weather warnings where quite clear there was going to be a lot of snow but Stewart Stevenson chose to ignore this warning and now we have to live with the disruption.

The warnings didn't appear till late on Sunday.

[IFONLY]

The warnings didn't appear till late on Sunday.


And!!

[Hibbyradge]

And!!

What does that mean?

I woke on Monday morning and was completely taken by surprise by the fact that it was snowing at all. The last time I had seen a forecast, a clear day was predicted.

I woke quite late, but many folk had already left for work.

What do you think should have happened?

[IFONLY]

What does that mean?

I woke on Monday morning and was completely taken by surprise by the fact that it was snowing at all. The last time I had seen a forecast, a clear day was predicted.

I woke quite late, but many folk had already left for work.

What do you think should have happened?

Doesnt matter when the snow started the fact is it did. Do you not watch or listen to news bulleteins, Stevenson is being pilloried from many people, politicians RAC AA etc for a lack of common sense. He even back tracked on his earlier statement regarding the GREAT job being done. The weather forecasts where played back to him on Radio Scotland yesterday and he admitted that the gritters etc should have been out on Sunday night/early Monday morning

[Hibbyradge]

Doesnt matter when the snow started the fact is it did. Do you not watch or listen to news bulleteins, Stevenson is being pilloried from many people, politicians RAC AA etc for a lack of common sense. He even back tracked on his earlier statement regarding the GREAT job being done. The weather forecasts where played back to him on Radio Scotland yesterday and he admitted that the gritters etc should have been out on Sunday night/early Monday morning

Never underestimate the need to blame someone in this country, especially if there's an easy target.

Monday's snowfall is the worst I have ever seen in my 50 years on this planet.

Edinburgh airport has been closed more often this week than it has in years.

They've got their own gritters and for a much smaller area. They made no difference.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've got some sympathy for people caught in the rush hour, even though snow was forecast. People who ventured out later in the morning, especially without extra clothes and food, will be feeling pretty stupid I would guess.

[Hiber-nation]

After the Sunday night BBC news the national weather forecast predicted heavy snow in the central belt of Scotland on Monday morning. The Scottish BBC weather forecast followed, predicting only very light snow. Balls-up.

[Jack]

Much as I hate to say it Stevenson was probably interviewed hours before the forecast was upped to WTF so didn't know what was in store.
.
Still doesn't excuse the authorities for not taking appropriate action in the 10 or so hours warning they had or indeed the public who woke up, heard the morning forecast, and went out anyway.

[talking_wiss]

I find it quite amusing that people can blame a minister re. the weather forecast and whether he got it right or wrong.

We have had a one off mad Monday morning with extreme weather and folk expect the roads to be clear, having been on the road for much of that Monday I can't see how gritting on the Sunday night would have made any significant difference, whilst gritting on the Monday morning would have been impossible given the standstill the roads had become. In fact when I set off the roads were driveable, within an hour it was nigh on impossible to move. I can't fathom how Ministers can be blamed for this.

I'm sure the minister regrets his quote on the Monday night but hey we all say regrettable and certainly missinformed things at times. I'm sure he'll learn from that mistake.

The reaction to the Scot Govt reminds me of the reaction to Michael Fish in the 80's, even if he'd got it on the money much of the country would have still blown over!

[steakbake]

I would have had sympathy for the transport minister because he's a human being, not one of the gods who can control the weather. However, to sum up the government's approach as being "first class" was bound to eventually make him look a bit ridiculous.

[Twa Cairpets]

Doesnt matter when the snow started the fact is it did. Do you not watch or listen to news bulleteins, Stevenson is being pilloried from many people, politicians RAC AA etc for a lack of common sense. He even back tracked on his earlier statement regarding the GREAT job being done. The weather forecasts where played back to him on Radio Scotland yesterday and he admitted that the gritters etc should have been out on Sunday night/early Monday morning

Utter nonsense.

If you left for work any time between 6.00 and 7.00 you would have had no concerns or doubt. Move forward an hour, the snow is falling heavily, Cars get stuck and lorries jack knife. The roads then snarl up with deepening snow and a few hundred people are unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Grit would have made minimal difference as the problem wasnt ice and the snowfall was so heavy and persistent.

Anyone listening to a weather forecast after late sunday night could have made a different decision, but how many people genuinely do you think would have taken the blindest bit of notice and changed their plans.

It happened, it was extraordinary and there is not necessarily anyone to blame. (In my case I cant even blame God, unlike the first Minister...).

All Stevenson has done has been to make a few ill-considered comments. He doesnt deserve to be pilloried because it snowed on his shift.

[heretoday]

I'm getting fed up with the blame game in this country. When will people grow up and be prepared for winter?

Employers need to be more realistic too and stop putting the emotional blackmail on their staff. Give them plenty time to get in and get home.

Winter tyres and snow chains should be fitted if you have to travel in these conditions. I can't help laughing at all the Vauxhalls and Fiats fishtailing up and down hard-packed side streets, their drivers cursing the government, council, Gail the weather girl etc. :rolleyes:

[--------]

I would have had sympathy for the transport minister because he's a human being, not one of the gods who can control the weather. However, to sum up the government's approach as being "first class" was bound to eventually make him look a bit ridiculous.


Me, too. I finally took the car out today (into Airdrie for some groceries).

Traffic was moving VERY slowly, mainly because while the roads were passable (just) the temperature was so low that the salt and grit weren't working and we were driving in a soft powder of snow, sand, grit and salt. Parked and abandoned cars weren't making the job of road-clearing any easier.

The body responsible for motorway maintenance is a private contractor - Amey, I think? Even if they had got their machinery out before the snow came, the temperatures were so low that I don't think they would have made much difference.

The bodies responsible for the other roads and side-streets are the local councils - in our case in North Lanarkshire a Labour Council outstanding in the realms of corruption, laziness, and inefficiency. It's safe to say that the roads department in NL has been struggling to cope since the snow started - not because they're incompetent, but because the Council have starved them of resources, machinery and people to do the job.

Stevenson should have kept his trap shut until things became clearer, then got well stuck into councils like North Lanarkshire. That would have covered his own back while placing responsibility squarely where it belongs.


BORING REMINISCENCE.

I grew up in a village well off the main trunk roads.

When I was a kid, every November the old County Council Roads Department parked a retired US Army 6-by-6 gun tractor (that's 6 axles, 10 wheels, each one directly driven by a massive diesel engine) armed with a snowplough and a load of grit, salt, and chippings in the village square.

A guy came down each evening about 4.30 to run the engine and check the Beast out. The Beast was so powerful, you could hear it a mile away at least. The Beast taught me the meaning of the word AWESOME.

Our house overlooked the square, and I was always the first kid in the school to know that it was snowing - I would be wakened in the wee hours by this behemoth being roused to life and taken out to clear the roads between our village and the nearest towns.

I regret to say that this crew and their giant snowplough were so efficient I missed only ONE day of school in six years in my teens - and that included the winter of 1963, which, for those too young to know, was a real doozie.

What I cannot understand is why our council could operate so efficiently nearly 50 years ago, while today we seem to live in chaos whenever anything out of the ordinary happens.


PS: THIS was the Beast. http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_mack_no.php

[Sir David Gray]

I knew about Monday's snow at about 10pm on Sunday night, so there are absolutely no excuses for the authorities not being prepared. The snow didn't start until about 6am or so, so that gave them about eight hours to get their gritters on the road and get everything prepared for the snow. Due to the large amount of snow that actually fell on Monday morning and into lunchtime, I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been some degree of disruption but I think the severity of the disruption was completely unnecessary.

The people involved in this farce should be forced to resign as it's simply not good enough. After the chaos that was caused by last year's bad weather, we were told that lessons had been learned and that they would be much more prepared in the future. Less than a year later and we're in exactly the same situation. :bitchy:

ITV did a programme last night about the weather problems and they went to Finland to see how they cope with their low temperatures. OK they're more used to bad winters than we are but they went to one of their airports (in Helsinki, I believe) where they mentioned that not once has that airport been forced to close due to adverse weather since it opened about 50 years ago. Gatwick and Edinburgh have been closed on several occasions in the past week alone.

We might not need to invest quite as much in winter weather supplies as the Nordic nations as their temperatures are usually much lower and the amount of snow that they get is normally greater as well. However, we must begin to invest much more and employ competent people who are going to keep on top of things and ensure that the entire country doesn't come to a complete standstill, every time we get a couple of inches of snow. British business must have taken a massive hit over the past 10 days or so when hundreds of thousands of people have been left stranded in their homes, unable to use public transport and no way of getting to their work.

If what I'm being told about climate change is correct then Scotland will be getting colder in the winter and heavy snowfall will be a regular occurrence for us. It's time to invest now so that this doesn't happen again.

If the forecasters are correct, we are due to get milder weather on Friday and that will last into the early part of next week but, after that, we are supposed to get more freezing temperatures and heavy snow and that will last into the New Year. If that turns out to be accurate, will we have to endure all this disruption and chaos once again, this time next week?

[--------]

I knew about Monday's snow at about 10pm on Sunday night, so there are absolutely no excuses for the authorities not being prepared. The snow didn't start until about 6am or so, so that gave them about eight hours to get their gritters on the road and get everything prepared for the snow. Due to the large amount of snow that actually fell on Monday morning and into lunchtime, I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been some degree of disruption but I think the severity of the disruption was completely unnecessary.

The people involved in this farce should be forced to resign as it's simply not good enough. After the chaos that was caused by last year's bad weather, we were told that lessons had been learned and that they would be much more prepared in the future. Less than a year later and we're in exactly the same situation. :bitchy:

ITV did a programme last night about the weather problems and they went to Finland to see how they cope with their low temperatures. OK they're more used to bad winters than we are but they went to one of their airports (in Helsinki, I believe) where they mentioned that not once has that airport been forced to close due to adverse weather since it opened about 50 years ago. Gatwick and Edinburgh have been closed on several occasions in the past week alone.

We might not need to invest quite as much in winter weather supplies as the Nordic nations as their temperatures are usually much lower and the amount of snow that they get is normally greater as well. However, we must begin to invest much more and employ competent people who are going to keep on top of things and ensure that the entire country doesn't come to a complete standstill, every time we get a couple of inches of snow. British business must have taken a massive hit over the past 10 days or so when hundreds of thousands of people have been left stranded in their homes, unable to use public transport and no way of getting to their work.

If what I'm being told about climate change is correct then Scotland will be getting colder in the winter and heavy snowfall will be a regular occurrence for us. It's time to invest now so that this doesn't happen again.

If the forecasters are correct, we are due to get milder weather on Friday and that will last into the early part of next week but, after that, we are supposed to get more freezing temperatures and heavy snow and that will last into the New Year. If that turns out to be accurate, will we have to endure all this disruption and chaos once again, this time next week?


I think the short answer to that question would be 'YES'.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The weather conditions are just serving to compound the already ***** service provided by Lothian Buses.

Be ashamed those that felt it wise to go ahead with the tram project and bankrupt this city.

Remember the old Simpsons episode? "Monorail.. Monorail..."

It was only a matter of time. :greengrin

[Geo_1875]

I think we must blame the Government collectively for this weeks chaos. Not once did I see any of our elected representatives driving a council gritter. Surely they could have shown some initiative and got out there. After all, the council's are cutting back so much that there must have been no batteries in the tranny when the weather forecast was on. Anyway, we've plenty warning of more snow to come and I'm sure plans for the giant umbrella over Central Scotland will be well advanced.

[Jack]

I knew about Monday's snow at about 10pm on Sunday night, so there are absolutely no excuses for the authorities not being prepared. The snow didn't start until about 6am or so, so that gave them about eight hours to get their gritters on the road and get everything prepared for the snow. Due to the large amount of snow that actually fell on Monday morning and into lunchtime, I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been some degree of disruption but I think the severity of the disruption was completely unnecessary.

The people involved in this farce should be forced to resign as it's simply not good enough. After the chaos that was caused by last year's bad weather, we were told that lessons had been learned and that they would be much more prepared in the future. Less than a year later and we're in exactly the same situation. :bitchy:


If the people responsible for clearing the roads should resign because they had 8 hours to prepare should the public who took their vehicles out, having had the opportunity to make a weather related decision before they set out, mostly ill prepared
, have their vehicles taken off them?
.
The weather warnings were on the radio every few minutes pre and during the rush hour and folk were still going about with just a cardie and nothing in the car that might be useful when/if they got stuck.
.
As for the daft bitch with the revolving accent on STV news whinging (lacking all the above except the cardie) turn your radio ON then you'll find out whats happening. What do you want a letter from the queen to tell you your clueless and stuck in the snow?

[Phil D. Rolls]

If the people responsible for clearing the roads should resign because they had 8 hours to prepare should the public who took their vehicles out, having had the opportunity to make a weather related decision before they set out, mostly ill prepared
, have their vehicles taken off them?
.
The weather warnings were on the radio every few minutes pre and during the rush hour and folk were still going about with just a cardie and nothing in the car that might be useful when/if they got stuck.
.
As for the daft bitch with the revolving accent on STV news whinging (lacking all the above except the cardie) turn your radio ON then you'll find out whats happening. What do you want a letter from the queen to tell you your clueless and stuck in the snow?

I can understand that people weren't at their best, and that the news probably chose the stupidest sound bites to make the story interesting. At the same time though, they should maybe take a cue from people like the lorry drivers interviewed, who showed a much more pragmatic approach to the situation.

As for the transport minister - Grade A numpty. Of course he couldn't control the snow, but his reaction to the "crisis" as it unfolded was poor to say the least.

Labour weren't much better, with their pygmie telling us what he would have done. These people should get to grips with the fact that they are supposed to be running a country, work together to clear the snow, and stop point scoring like they were Stoneybridge Town Council.

Now that the dust has settled, does anyone know how many hospitals had to close, how many people died, and how many people were trapped? As far as I can see, people have been getting on with things as best they can. The last thing we need is whinging.

[steakbake]

I can understand that people weren't at their best, and that the news probably chose the stupidest sound bites to make the story interesting. At the same time though, they should maybe take a cue from people like the lorry drivers interviewed, who showed a much more pragmatic approach to the situation.

As for the transport minister - Grade A numpty. Of course he couldn't control the snow, but his reaction to the "crisis" as it unfolded was poor to say the least.

Labour weren't much better, with their pygmie telling us what he would have done. These people should get to grips with the fact that they are supposed to be running a country, work together to clear the snow, and stop point scoring like they were Stoneybridge Town Council.

Now that the dust has settled, does anyone know how many hospitals had to close, how many people died, and how many people were trapped? As far as I can see, people have been getting on with things as best they can. The last thing we need is whinging.

This is the sort of thing which has got me disinterested with Scottish politics.

It's just adversarial for the point of it. Petty points scoring, 20-20 hindsight and a lot of daft wee politicians riding around on moral high-horses having pointless debates really is the mark of politics in this country.

[JimBHibees]

Utter nonsense.

If you left for work any time between 6.00 and 7.00 you would have had no concerns or doubt. Move forward an hour, the snow is falling heavily, Cars get stuck and lorries jack knife. The roads then snarl up with deepening snow and a few hundred people are unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Grit would have made minimal difference as the problem wasnt ice and the snowfall was so heavy and persistent.

Anyone listening to a weather forecast after late sunday night could have made a different decision, but how many people genuinely do you think would have taken the blindest bit of notice and changed their plans.

It happened, it was extraordinary and there is not necessarily anyone to blame. (In my case I cant even blame God, unlike the first Minister...).

All Stevenson has done has been to make a few ill-considered comments. He doesnt deserve to be pilloried because it snowed on his shift.

Spot on unprecendented snowfall on top of existing very poor conditions.

[Hibbyradge]

The comparisons with Scandinavia and Canada are spurious.

Last week's weather is being compared to what happened in 1963. That's 47 years ago.

Scandinavia has to deal with these conditions for months every year.

Does anyone seriously think that the government should invest in machinery and resources capable of dealing with winter conditions which occur only for a few days once or twice in a lifetime?

As far as I can see, many individuals don't invest in a pair of winter boots cos they "never have to use them".

[Twa Cairpets]

This is the sort of thing which has got me disinterested with Scottish politics.

It's just adversarial for the point of it. Petty points scoring, 20-20 hindsight and a lot of daft wee politicians riding around on moral high-horses having pointless debates really is the mark of politics in this country.

The antics of McLetchie waving his wee print out, the Labour guy demanding resignation and even worse, the LibDem woman almost creaming herself for her witticism of "you should take a shovel out with you" in Holyrood yesterday made me shout loudly at ther telly.


I knew about Monday's snow at about 10pm on Sunday night, so there are absolutely no excuses for the authorities not being prepared. The snow didn't start until about 6am or so, so that gave them about eight hours to get their gritters on the road and get everything prepared for the snow. Due to the large amount of snow that actually fell on Monday morning and into lunchtime, I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been some degree of disruption but I think the severity of the disruption was completely unnecessary.

The people involved in this farce should be forced to resign as it's simply not good enough. After the chaos that was caused by last year's bad weather, we were told that lessons had been learned and that they would be much more prepared in the future. Less than a year later and we're in exactly the same situation

Maybe we should just get in touch with you then for guidance?

Jack summed it up - it is primarily people who are to "blame", insofar as blame is justified, for going out in weather that they shouldnt have.

Given that grit and salt would have made virtually no difference given the nature, timing and severity of the weather, the reason for the chaos was that people werent equipped to react to it, underestimating what was happening because we're just not used to it.

The main reason why nordic countries for example adapt better to the conditions is that they are culturally adjusted to it, and as they have worse weather for much longer more consistently year after year they have much greater resources in place to cope. I would imagine that if the govenrment put aside £xmillion for severe weather reaction, and its sits unused for the next 3 years say in a warehouse, you'd be first on to bitch about waste of money/over-reaction etc.

But whats your answer? Political resignation. Brilliant. Genius. Lets get rid of the people who have been directly involved in the crisis and are therefore presumably amongst the best placed to identify where any failings were. This isnt negligence or corruption - its at worst a stupid comment. I think you need to try to remember that snow isnt political.

[Bad Martini]

Stevenson got it wrong and he (EVENTUALLY) apologised, to some degree...

However, when he was interviewed on BBC Newsnight on Tuesday he refused to apologise, claimed a great effort had been made and they had prepared for the "wrong set" of weather forecasts. What weather had they prepared for precisely? Why not go all out for keeping things clear IN CASE - 5cm of snow? 10 cm of snow? Would we send out different ploughs? Use different salt? Grit? Nope. It's a cop out, pure and simple.

Stevie Wonder could see it coming. Moreover, the Met Office Website on Sunday night WARNED everyone of the oncoming snow. Everyone was warned and it's now come out HE was warned (directly, at 20.41 on Sunday night I think was quoted) but decided it wasn't too bad to alter the government plans.

No public announcement. No nothing. Just "unforseen" chaos.

His eventual half hearted, half arsed attempt at saying sorry for what he and his ******** colleagues HELPED to make no better (as opposed to cause as I do accept, some of this is down to driver bad luck, some driver stupidity and some down to genuine heavy snow) cuts no ice, to pardon the pun.

The man is very arrogant and had anyone else caused hundreds of people to be so inconvenienced/life at risk (which, it is - stuck on sub zero temperatures on a MOTORWAY) they'd be out a job. So, should he be. I never agree with nor even like very much, what the Torries, Lib Scabs or Labour bassas say in parliament. This SNP minister however, regardless of his party, deserves to lose his job IMHO.

He made an arse of it, pure and simple. Saying sorry half heartedly does not change anything. Ask anyone who was stuck on the M8 how much slack he deserves....

[Twa Cairpets]

Stevenson got it wrong and he (EVENTUALLY) apologised, to some degree...

However, when he was interviewed on BBC Newsnight on Tuesday he refused to apologise, claimed a great effort had been made and they had prepared for the "wrong set" of weather forecasts. What weather had they prepared for precisely? Why not go all out for keeping things clear IN CASE - 5cm of snow? 10 cm of snow? Would we send out different ploughs? Use different salt? Grit? Nope. It's a cop out, pure and simple.

Stevie Wonder could see it coming. Moreover, the Met Office Website on Sunday night WARNED everyone of the oncoming snow. Everyone was warned and it's now come out HE was warned (directly, at 20.41 on Sunday night I think was quoted) but decided it wasn't too bad to alter the government plans.

No public announcement. No nothing. Just "unforseen" chaos.

His eventual half hearted, half arsed attempt at saying sorry for what he and his ******** colleagues HELPED to make no better (as opposed to cause as I do accept, some of this is down to driver bad luck, some driver stupidity and some down to genuine heavy snow) cuts no ice, to pardon the pun.

The man is very arrogant and had anyone else caused hundreds of people to be so inconvenienced/life at risk (which, it is - stuck on sub zero temperatures on a MOTORWAY) they'd be out a job. So, should he be. I never agree with nor even like very much, what the Torries, Lib Scabs or Labour bassas say in parliament. This SNP minister however, regardless of his party, deserves to lose his job IMHO.

He made an arse of it, pure and simple. Saying sorry half heartedly does not change anything. Ask anyone who was stuck on the M8 how much slack he deserves....

Looking at the facts never gets in the way of a good rant does it? I'm not saying he wasn't stupid in his comments, but thats not a sacking offence.

If you read the detail and listen to the non-partisan comments of the police, etc, the general consensus is that there wsnt much that could have been done that would have made any difference. If the response had ended up being OTT (based on the forecast of 10cm being right, not the 20cm+ that happened) would you have been on shouting about nanny state, waste of resources, schools closed unecessarily, people skiving work etc etc?

If you must apportion blame, look back at the last 40 years of roads spending. Ask why part of the road between the two main cities is still dual carriageway. Ask why the M8 isnt three lanes. Ask why the Bellshill bypass is permanently clooged at Raith interchange. Ask why the A96 aberdeen to Inverness still trawls through wee villages and towns.

As for "No Public Announcement" didnt you say "...Moreover, the Met Office Website on Sunday night WARNED everyone of the oncoming snow. Everyone was warned..". So if every weather bulletin on every TV and radio station was forecasting bad weather and a severe weather warning, what magical extra Announcement did you want? Loud speakers warning the public of impending doom?

And by the way I was stuck for 5 hours on Monday, and I didnt feel the need to blame anyone for me being where I was other than myself.

[Bad Martini]

Looking at the facts never gets in the way of a good rant does it? I'm not saying he wasn't stupid in his comments, but thats not a sacking offence.

The facts to me on this one are simple.

Stevenson would not apologise. He was arrogant with it. On the background of getting it wrong.

It's one thing to make a roger dunt of it in private...its quite another to blame the Met Office, blame everyone else, blame everyone BUT himself.

In MY opinion, he's an erse and this incident alone should be enough to warrant a "written warning" or whatever politicans give themselves when they make a dunt of it - that said, on that logic, they'll award themselves a payrise....

:grr:

[Beefster]

I blame the Tories and Lib Dems. It never snowed like this under New Labour and I specifically remember a pledge in the Lib Dem manifesto that they would scrap snowfall over 6 years. Instead, the *******s have made it worse at the first opportunity that they had.

[ancienthibby]

Stevenson got it wrong and he (EVENTUALLY) apologised, to some degree...

However, when he was interviewed on BBC Newsnight on Tuesday he refused to apologise, claimed a great effort had been made and they had prepared for the "wrong set" of weather forecasts. What weather had they prepared for precisely? Why not go all out for keeping things clear IN CASE - 5cm of snow? 10 cm of snow? Would we send out different ploughs? Use different salt? Grit? Nope. It's a cop out, pure and simple.

Stevie Wonder could see it coming. Moreover, the Met Office Website on Sunday night WARNED everyone of the oncoming snow. Everyone was warned and it's now come out HE was warned (directly, at 20.41 on Sunday night I think was quoted) but decided it wasn't too bad to alter the government plans.

No public announcement. No nothing. Just "unforseen" chaos.

His eventual half hearted, half arsed attempt at saying sorry for what he and his ******** colleagues HELPED to make no better (as opposed to cause as I do accept, some of this is down to driver bad luck, some driver stupidity and some down to genuine heavy snow) cuts no ice, to pardon the pun.

The man is very arrogant and had anyone else caused hundreds of people to be so inconvenienced/life at risk (which, it is - stuck on sub zero temperatures on a MOTORWAY) they'd be out a job. So, should he be. I never agree with nor even like very much, what the Torries, Lib Scabs or Labour bassas say in parliament. This SNP minister however, regardless of his party, deserves to lose his job IMHO.

He made an arse of it, pure and simple. Saying sorry half heartedly does not change anything. Ask anyone who was stuck on the M8 how much slack he deserves....

Stevenson is clearly not the most accomplished media performer, but he did not get it wrong!!

There is a COBRA committee in Holyrood which takes control of these matters and reps from the FibDems, Lost Labour and the Tories and the Met office sit, deliberate and take decisions. And based on all the Met forecasts, the COBRA committee never had the right information to make the 'right' decisions. :agree:

We now know that all the Met forecasts were quite inadequate in correctly forecasting the full extent of the 'severe conditions' Their maximum forecast was 10cms on the hilltops, while at ground level snow levels of 15-25 cms were common!!

The Governments ability to deal with the conditions was also severely reduced by the fact that the previous Los tLabour/FibDem coalition awarded winter road coverage contracts to private enterprises such as BEAR and Amey!:grr:

Finally, why do we live in such a culture of blame, and why do you want to promote it??

Whatever happened to individual responsibility!

[discman]

The antics of McLetchie waving his wee print out, the Labour guy demanding resignation and even worse, the LibDem woman almost creaming herself for her witticism of "you should take a shovel out with you" in Holyrood yesterday made me shout loudly at ther telly.



Maybe we should just get in touch with you then for guidance?

Jack summed it up - it is primarily people who are to "blame", insofar as blame is justified, for going out in weather that they shouldnt have.

Given that grit and salt would have made virtually no difference given the nature, timing and severity of the weather, the reason for the chaos was that people werent equipped to react to it, underestimating what was happening because we're just not used to it.

The main reason why nordic countries for example adapt better to the conditions is that they are culturally adjusted to it, and as they have worse weather for much longer more consistently year after year they have much greater resources in place to cope. I would imagine that if the govenrment put aside £xmillion for severe weather reaction, and its sits unused for the next 3 years say in a warehouse, you'd be first on to bitch about waste of money/over-reaction etc.

But whats your answer? Political resignation. Brilliant. Genius. Lets get rid of the people who have been directly involved in the crisis and are therefore presumably amongst the best placed to identify where any failings were. This isnt negligence or corruption - its at worst a stupid comment. I think you need to try to remember that snow isnt political.


I to watched Stevenson on Mondays Newsnight and he was given the oppertunity 5 times to apologise,which would have gone some way to placating the public,instead he repeated on 4 occassions that it was:

"an unexpectedly high level of snowfall and a much wider spread and cover"


This is a man out of touch with the responsibilities he's been entrusted with,
we have a contingency plan its called A Winter Service Plan 10/10/2010-15/5/2011

Go to Transport Scotland, Winter Maintenance and click on south east region.

Very specific very detailed with all the procedures and resources available to them,including:

"Weather radar which will be used via an internet based site which gives a short range forecast up to 3 hors in advance and with the facility to time-set the movement of the prevailing weather conditions.The radar will help to improve the accurcy of assessing the timing,nature and intensity of precipatation,particularly snowfall"

This is just one of many resouces they had at their disposal check out the rest and given all this and the fact that this freeze had been going on for a week and lorries had been stuck from 4/5 inthe morning,according to Phil Flanders of The Road Haulage Association on the same programme.

So given he had knowledge of the plan, his failure to be on top of it even from last week,I dont agree he is" best placed",just the opposite,he's demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the significance and impact this would have on our roads and country; and for what its worth irrespective of the incumbants political persuasion, if they had behaved like Minister Stevenson,I would expect him to stand down due to him being totally incompetent :greengrin

[Jack]

50F degrees People in southern England turn on the central heating. People in Edinburgh plant out bedding plants

40F degrees Southerners shiver uncontrollably. Glaswegians sunbathe on the beach at Largs

35F degrees Cars in the south of England refuse to start. People in Falkirk drive with their windows down

20F degrees Southerners wear overcoats, gloves and woolly hats. Aberdonian men throw on a T-shirt & girls start wearing mini-skirts

15F degrees Southerners begin to evacuate to the continent. People from Dundee swim in the North Sea at Broughty Ferry

Zero degrees Life in the south grinds to a halt. Inverness folk have the last BBQ before it gets cold

Minus 10F degrees Life in the south ceases to exist. People in Dunfermline throw on a light jacket

Minus 80F degrees Polar bears wonder if it's worth carrying on. Boy Scouts in Oban start wearing their long trousers

Minus 100F degrees Santa Claus abandons North Pole. People in Stirling put on their 'long johns'

Minus 173F degrees Alcohol freezes. Glaswegians get upset because all the pubs are shut

Minus 297F degrees Microbial life starts to disappear. The cows in Dumfriesshire complain about farmers with cold hands

Minus 460F degrees All atomic motion stops. Shetlanders stamp their feet and blow on their hands

Minus 500F degrees Hell freezes over. Scotland Transport Minister Stewart Stevenson says that the weather forecast he was given "appears to have been different" from that of some other forecasters.

[discman]

50F degrees People in southern England turn on the central heating. People in Edinburgh plant out bedding plants

40F degrees Southerners shiver uncontrollably. Glaswegians sunbathe on the beach at Largs

35F degrees Cars in the south of England refuse to start. People in Falkirk drive with their windows down

20F degrees Southerners wear overcoats, gloves and woolly hats. Aberdonian men throw on a T-shirt & girls start wearing mini-skirts

15F degrees Southerners begin to evacuate to the continent. People from Dundee swim in the North Sea at Broughty Ferry

Zero degrees Life in the south grinds to a halt. Inverness folk have the last BBQ before it gets cold

Minus 10F degrees Life in the south ceases to exist. People in Dunfermline throw on a light jacket

Minus 80F degrees Polar bears wonder if it's worth carrying on. Boy Scouts in Oban start wearing their long trousers

Minus 100F degrees Santa Claus abandons North Pole. People in Stirling put on their 'long johns'

Minus 173F degrees Alcohol freezes. Glaswegians get upset because all the pubs are shut

Minus 297F degrees Microbial life starts to disappear. The cows in Dumfriesshire complain about farmers with cold hands

Minus 460F degrees All atomic motion stops. Shetlanders stamp their feet and blow on their hands

Minus 500F degrees Hell freezes over. Scotland Transport Minister Stewart Stevenson says that the weather forecast he was given "appears to have been different" from that of some other forecasters.



:top marks :thumbsup:

[Hibbyradge]

The Governments ability to deal with the conditions was also severely reduced by the fact that the previous Los tLabour/FibDem coalition awarded winter road coverage contracts to private enterprises such as BEAR and Amey!:grr:

Finally, why do we live in such a culture of blame, and why do you want to promote it??

Whatever happened to individual responsibility!

Loving the irony!

[Bad Martini]

Stevenson is clearly not the most accomplished media performer, but he did not get it wrong!!

He did. That's why HE apologised in the end when he said it was HIS fault, the buck stopped with HIM...and HE was sorry.


Finally, why do we live in such a culture of blame, and why do you want to promote it??

Whatever happened to individual responsibility!

I agree. However, you "blamed" the previous government. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree they are a shower of useless tossers but, you started the blame thing :devil:

"individual responsibility" is what I was talking about from the start mate. And the "individual" responsible here, is Mr Stevenson...

Simples :greengrin

[--------]

Stevenson is clearly not the most accomplished media performer, but he did not get it wrong!!

There is a COBRA committee in Holyrood which takes control of these matters and reps from the FibDems, Lost Labour and the Tories and the Met office sit, deliberate and take decisions. And based on all the Met forecasts, the COBRA committee never had the right information to make the 'right' decisions. :agree:

We now know that all the Met forecasts were quite inadequate in correctly forecasting the full extent of the 'severe conditions' Their maximum forecast was 10cms on the hilltops, while at ground level snow levels of 15-25 cms were common!!

The Governments ability to deal with the conditions was also severely reduced by the fact that the previous Lost Labour/FibDem coalition awarded winter road coverage contracts to private enterprises such as BEAR and Amey!:grr:

Finally, why do we live in such a culture of blame, and why do you want to promote it??

Whatever happened to individual responsibility!


Yup. And are now blaming their successors for a mess they themselves created.

I live in North Lanarkshire, where we have Labour politicians like some folks have cockroaches (I'd rather have the cockroaches - honest) and the road conditions have been very poor indeed - not because the guys in the Roads Department don't know their jobs, nor because they couldn't care less.

They've been working round the clock to try to get things sorted out, but a combination of extreme conditions and inadequate resources - too few men and machines, too little sand and grit, ineffective and inaccurate weather forecasting - have made the job impossible.

Quote from our local (Labour) councillor - "Sorry, there's nothing we can do."

Stevenson was unwise to say what he said initially, and hasn't handled the backlash too well, but blaming him for a situation unparalleled in 40 years? Like, Ian Gray and his numpties would have done better? Aye, that'd be right.

[Andy74]

The comparisons with Scandinavia and Canada are spurious.

Last week's weather is being compared to what happened in 1963. That's 47 years ago.

Scandinavia has to deal with these conditions for months every year.

Does anyone seriously think that the government should invest in machinery and resources capable of dealing with winter conditions which occur only for a few days once or twice in a lifetime?

As far as I can see, many individuals don't invest in a pair of winter boots cos they "never have to use them".

Exactly

We've had two bad winters in a row but I can hardly recall much snow for the rest of my lifetime.

We can't expect the country to gear up totally with the expense it would bring. Personally, are we all going to buy 4x4s and extreme winter gear or assume it will probably be overkill?

A few have also mentioned how the gritters should have been out before the snow.

My understanding is that it is worthless doing when you are expecting several inches of snow as it just lies on top of it.

You can only react after it by getting it cleared which is what we can't afford to invest in en masse for the minimal use we'd get from the machines.

It's been a hassle but all we can do is try and plan around when travel will not be possible and then normal service is likely to be resumed for the next 30 to 40 winters!

[ancienthibby]

He did. That's why HE apologised in the end when he said it was HIS fault, the buck stopped with HIM...and HE was sorry.

Nope.

He never said it was his fault; said it was his responsibility; two completely different things!



I agree. However, you "blamed" the previous government. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree they are a shower of useless tossers but, you started the blame thing :devil:

I see you have put 'blamed' in quotation marks. I never said or implied that. I made the point that the Scottish Government's hands are effectively tied by the fact that contracts for road/winter maintenance are now in the hands of private companies. That's a fact, not a point of political opinion!

It does mean that knocking heads together at local councils is no longer on the Agenda for the Government of the time.

"individual responsibility" is what I was talking about from the start mate. And the "individual" responsible here, is Mr Stevenson...

On this latter point, individual responsibility starts with the individual, not with a governmental figure. You can be absolutely sure of this that many who were caught up in the winter/traffic conditions earlier this week could well have taken a second thought and decided not to travel.

Beyond that point is a much more important one which I'll illustrate this way: I lived through 14 Toronto winters where, as a homeowner, I was obliged to clear my pavement within 4 hours of every snowfall - and I and every resident in my street did so. I'm still usually the first out on my street this winter doing the same. We need to ditch the idea that 'the nanny state' will provide. A bit of similar individual responsibility on the residential and commercial streets of our town and cities and we'd be much better off.

To say nothing of compulsory snow tyres (and chains) from November to March!!:greengrin

Simples :greengrin

Even more simples!:devil:

[ancienthibby]

The man has resigned!!

LostLabour will crow that they have won another scalp, but the poor man was unfortunate, No one, repeat no one from any political party, could have coped with the weather conditions in Scotland this week.

He was not media-friendly, not people-friendly and chose to fall on his sword!

[hibsbollah]

The comparisons with Scandinavia and Canada are spurious.

Last week's weather is being compared to what happened in 1963. That's 47 years ago.

Scandinavia has to deal with these conditions for months every year.

Does anyone seriously think that the government should invest in machinery and resources capable of dealing with winter conditions which occur only for a few days once or twice in a lifetime?

As far as I can see, many individuals don't invest in a pair of winter boots cos they "never have to use them".

:agree:For the last year the nation has been telling local government employees that they have to endure pay cuts, lose their pensions, and stop being so lazy unlike those nice private sector workers. Suddenly they are now also supposed to defeat the forces of mother nature and make the roads magically free of the worst snowfall in living memory:rolleyes:

If you want a first class emergency response service, you need to pay for it.

[--------]

The man has resigned!!

LostLabour will crow that they have won another scalp, but the poor man was unfortunate, No one, repeat no one from any political party, could have coped with the weather conditions in Scotland this week.

He was not media-friendly, not people-friendly and chose to fall on his sword!


The Red-Rosetted Monkeys need to take a lesson here - a minister resigning when hsi position has become untenable.

When was the last time a Slabber minister resigned when things went wrong on his/her/its watch?

[khib70]

Yup. And are now blaming their successors for a mess they themselves created.

I live in North Lanarkshire, where we have Labour politicians like some folks have cockroaches (I'd rather have the cockroaches - honest) and the road conditions have been very poor indeed - not because the guys in the Roads Department don't know their jobs, nor because they couldn't care less.

They've been working round the clock to try to get things sorted out, but a combination of extreme conditions and inadequate resources - too few men and machines, too little sand and grit, ineffective and inaccurate weather forecasting - have made the job impossible.

Quote from our local (Labour) councillor - "Sorry, there's nothing we can do."

Stevenson was unwise to say what he said initially, and hasn't handled the backlash too well, but blaming him for a situation unparalleled in 40 years? Like, Ian Gray and his numpties would have done better? Aye, that'd be right.
Dead right. The only thing quicker than the onset of the snow was the Labour party making political capital out of it. It is, as you say, a mercy that Gray and his band of jumped-up cooncillors weren't in charge.

[Removed]

Dead right. The only thing quicker than the onset of the snow was the Labour party making political capital out of it. It is, as you say, a mercy that Gray and his band of jumped-up cooncillors weren't in charge.

:agree: they would have made a much bigger balls up. That carry on in holyrood was a total embarrassment during the week. I thought that the Scottish parliament was meant to be a new dawn in politics. What we saw was the same old same old party political childish games. No wonder young folk these days don't vote :bitchy:

[Sir David Gray]

Maybe we should just get in touch with you then for guidance?

Jack summed it up - it is primarily people who are to "blame", insofar as blame is justified, for going out in weather that they shouldnt have.

Given that grit and salt would have made virtually no difference given the nature, timing and severity of the weather, the reason for the chaos was that people werent equipped to react to it, underestimating what was happening because we're just not used to it.

The main reason why nordic countries for example adapt better to the conditions is that they are culturally adjusted to it, and as they have worse weather for much longer more consistently year after year they have much greater resources in place to cope. I would imagine that if the govenrment put aside £xmillion for severe weather reaction, and its sits unused for the next 3 years say in a warehouse, you'd be first on to bitch about waste of money/over-reaction etc.

But whats your answer? Political resignation. Brilliant. Genius. Lets get rid of the people who have been directly involved in the crisis and are therefore presumably amongst the best placed to identify where any failings were. This isnt negligence or corruption - its at worst a stupid comment. I think you need to try to remember that snow isnt political.

This is now the second winter in a row that we have had exceptional amounts of snowfall. I seem to remember the forecasters saying last year that what we got then was a "once in a lifetime" experience. Less than 12 months later and we're being told the same thing...:rolleyes:

I'll repeat what I said earlier which is that if all these climate change people are correct, Scottish winters are likely to be getting colder and therefore snowfall is going to be more common. How many years in a row do we need to get this heavy snow before people start to think that investing more in winter supplies is a necessity?

Don't forget that Scotland's latitude is in line with Alberta in Canada, which sees regular winter temperatures of -15C and also with Moscow and we all know what their temperatures are like at this time of year. We are not in the south of Spain or the Caribbean, the only thing that stops us getting similar temperatures in winter is the strong Gulf stream that gives us milder winters. If the effects of that begin to weaken, as is being reported by the climate change people, then the weather of last week will be a regular feature for us.

As for resignations, I think it is totally justified and the Transport Minister isn't the only one who should be offering to leave his post. I was down in Falkirk town centre today and the pavements down there are an absolute disgrace, parking spaces haven't even been cleared and they are now packed with solid ice.

It was widely reported that the latter part of last week would see a thaw developing (which did happen) but that the "Big Freeze" would be returning next week. This, therefore, is an ideal window of opportunity for the councils to clear a large amount of snow and ice from the town centres and main roads so that we can start from scratch next week, should we get more snow and ice. All that will happen now is that the fresh snow that we are likely to get next week is just going to sit on top of the compacted ice and snow that is sitting on the roads and pavements at the moment.

I don't expect side streets to be cleared, certainly not as a priority anyway, but I do expect main roads and pavements in and around town centres to be cleared. Today was the second last Saturday before Christmas and hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country will be doing their shopping and they will need to walk on these pavements. It is totally unacceptable and shameful that my council, at least, has allowed these roads and pavements to stay in that condition.

[Removed]

And I've not even had my bin picked up :grr:

West Lothian councillors are a total joke :grr:

And my neighbours couldn't even be bothered clearing snow outside their own house :grr:

But aye, sack the lot of them, that'll solve the problem :rolleyes:

[Sir David Gray]

And I've not even had my bin picked up :grr:

West Lothian councillors are a total joke :grr:

And my neighbours couldn't even be bothered clearing snow outside their own house :grr:

But aye, sack the lot of them, that'll solve the problem :rolleyes:

Where did I say it would solve the problem?

If you don't do your job properly, no matter what you do, you deserve to be sacked. I don't think that the situation has been handled well at all by the people that matter and a number of people should, at the very least, be asked to consider their position.

[Removed]

FH - I took is as being inferred in your post otherwise what would be the point in sacking them? To teach them a lesson?

And whoever replaces them will do much better next time?

I doubt it.

Maybe the people that matter who may or may not have already considered their position are reviewing what went wrong. I can tell you one thing, I've made a lot of mistakes at my work but learned from them and made sure I didn't make the same one twice. I don't think I have ever deserved to be sacked though.

It's just too easy, or convenient, to call for their heads imo.

[The Harp Awakes]

After the Sunday night BBC news the national weather forecast predicted heavy snow in the central belt of Scotland on Monday morning. The Scottish BBC weather forecast followed, predicting only very light snow. Balls-up.

Absolutely correct. I saw both forecasts on the Sunday night and assumed (as many would have) that the BBC Scotland forecast would be more accurate - light snow on Monday morning.

The Met Office put out warnings ten a penny these days - widespread icy roads:bitchy: I think you can tell that there are icy roads when there is 2 foot of snow on the ground FFS:zzzzz!:

As for the Minister's resignation, another demonstration of 'gutter' politicians and the media screaming for a scape goat when normal life doesn't go according to plan. Pathetic.

[Removed]

As for the Minister's resignation, another demonstration of 'gutter' politicians and the media screaming for a scape goat when normal life doesn't go according to plan. Pathetic.

:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Where did I say it would solve the problem?

If you don't do your job properly, no matter what you do, you deserve to be sacked. I don't think that the situation has been handled well at all by the people that matter and a number of people should, at the very least, be asked to consider their position.

The man was minister for Transport, not minister for snow. We have to have some balance in these things, and if everybody was sacked for not doing their job properly we'd have a lot of people on the dole.

A sense of perspective is needed. I don't recall anybody dying in the snow. I do remember a man being trapped in his car for two weeks, up north, in 1979. Then everybody said, it's a miracle he survived. Now everyone would be saying that we should have done more to melt the 8 feet of snow his car was under.

It really is time we got away from this blame culture. The people to blame were the ones who undertook their journeys without proper preparation. Aybody leaving home that morning could see pictures on TV (iif they weren't brght enough to look out of their own window and put two and two together).

I feel that these people whingeing are in the same league as people who phone up the polis because they have run out of Brussels sprouts on Xmas day, or who present at A&E with a blister on their thumb. They should be made to wear special uniforms for our safety.

[hibsbollah]

the Transport Minister isn't the only one who should be offering to leave his post. I was down in Falkirk town centre today and the pavements down there are an absolute disgrace, parking spaces haven't even been cleared and they are now packed with solid ice.

It was widely reported that the latter part of last week would see a thaw developing (which did happen) but that the "Big Freeze" would be returning next week. This, therefore, is an ideal window of opportunity for the councils to clear a large amount of snow and ice from the town centres and main roads so that we can start from scratch next week, should we get more snow and ice. All that will happen now is that the fresh snow that we are likely to get next week is just going to sit on top of the compacted ice and snow that is sitting on the roads and pavements at the moment.

I don't expect side streets to be cleared, certainly not as a priority anyway, but I do expect main roads and pavements in and around town centres to be cleared. Today was the second last Saturday before Christmas and hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country will be doing their shopping and they will need to walk on these pavements. It is totally unacceptable and shameful that my council, at least, has allowed these roads and pavements to stay in that condition.

Would you be willing to pay more council tax to ensure this happens?

[Hibbyradge]

The man has resigned!!

LostLabour will crow that they have won another scalp, but the poor man was unfortunate, No one, repeat no one from any political party, could have coped with the weather conditions in Scotland this week.

He was not media-friendly, not people-friendly and chose to fall on his sword!


The Red-Rosetted Monkeys need to take a lesson here - a minister resigning when hsi position has become untenable.

When was the last time a Slabber minister resigned when things went wrong on his/her/its watch?

Using these phrases and insults betray your bias, undermines your points and, at best, doesn't win anyone to your point of view.

I think this resignation was totally unnecessary and I'm sick to death of the blame culture in which we live.

However, your childish insults make me want to defend what I disagree with.

[bingo70]

Using these phrases and insults betray your bias and undermines your points and, at best, doesn't win anyone to your point of view.

I think this resignation was totally unnecessary and I'm sick to death of the blame culture in which we live.

However, your childish insults make me want to defend what I disagree with.

No going to get too deep in this argument as i don't know enough about it, however i totally agree with the bit in bold.

**** happens some times, why can't people just deal with that now instead of trying to get someone to lose there job everytime it happens?

[--------]

Using these phrases and insults betray your bias, undermines your points and, at best, doesn't win anyone to your point of view.

I think this resignation was totally unnecessary and I'm sick to death of the blame culture in which we live.

However, your childish insults make me want to defend what I disagree with.


I stand rebuked.

However, an alternative accurate description might be something along the lines of "cynical corrupt self-serving incompetent arrogant dishonest lying degenerates."

That takes too long to type out every time.

And I was thinking of the long-established and entirely accurate observation that in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Ayrshire you can pin a red rosette on a monkey and the voters will vote it in.

The Right Honourable Sir Michael Martin, Privy Councillor, Baron Martin of Springburn, member of the House of Lords in New Labour's interest, for instance?

No, you're right. I apologise unreservedly - to the monkeys.

[Jack]

I stand rebuked.

However, an alternative accurate description might be something along the lines of "cynical corrupt self-serving incompetent arrogant dishonest lying degenerates."

That takes too long to type out every time.

And I was thinking of the long-established and entirely accurate observation that in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Ayrshire you can pin a red rosette on a monkey and the voters will vote it in.

The Right Honourable Sir Michael Martin, Privy Councillor, Baron Martin of Springburn, member of the House of Lords in New Labour's interest, for instance?

No, you're right. I apologise unreservedly - to the monkeys.

Is that all politcians or just some? :cool2:

[barcahibs]

I'll repeat what I said earlier which is that if all these climate change people are correct, Scottish winters are likely to be getting colder and therefore snowfall is going to be more common. How many years in a row do we need to get this heavy snow before people start to think that investing more in winter supplies is a necessity?

Don't forget that Scotland's latitude is in line with Alberta in Canada, which sees regular winter temperatures of -15C and also with Moscow and we all know what their temperatures are like at this time of year. We are not in the south of Spain or the Caribbean, the only thing that stops us getting similar temperatures in winter is the strong Gulf stream that gives us milder winters. If the effects of that begin to weaken, as is being reported by the climate change people, then the weather of last week will be a regular feature for us.

As for resignations, I think it is totally justified and the Transport Minister isn't the only one who should be offering to leave his post. I was down in Falkirk town centre today and the pavements down there are an absolute disgrace, parking spaces haven't even been cleared and they are now packed with solid ice.


From what I understand the idea that the Gulf Stream is responsible for our mild climate is a media myth. Its just one of those facts that 'everybody knows' that happens to be wrong. The Gulf Stream may have some effect but its actually pretty negligible. The reason we have mild winters is because water holds heat better than land and our prevailing winter winds come from the west over the relatively warm Atlantic. The Atlantic itself keeps us warm not the Gulf Stream and the Atlantic isn't going anywhere. The reason the past few weks have been so cold is that the wind has come from the East over the relatively cold Eurasian landmass.

Theres a good explanation of it here American Scientist article (http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.999,y.0,no.,content.true,page.1,css.print/issue.aspx)

Nobody can predict what the possible future effects of climate change will have on our winters, they're as likely to get warmer and wetter as colder and snowier. The current snow is not because of climate change - I don't think anyone is claiming it is to be fair.

That said, IMO it would be foolish to spend vast amounts of money developing an infrastructure that can routinely cope with bad spells like we're currently experiencing. If there are any inexpensive measures we can take then of course we should be exploring them but not spending billions on new railtracks, heated pavements and legions of snow clearing machines.

The Transport Minister HAD to go. Of course the bad spell wasn't his fault, and to be fair there probably was little that could have been done to keep the country running. But life's not fair and he's a politician, he has to expect to carry the can. A friend of mine was stuck on the M8 for something like 10 hours on Monday and eventually had to stay at a workmates house as there was no way of getting home. To say she was furious when she heard the 'First class job' line is an understatement. No politician could - or should - survive that.

[lapsedhibee]

A friend of mine was stuck on the M8 for something like 10 hours on Monday and eventually had to stay at a workmates house as there was no way of getting home.

Crikey, and I thought being caught up in the siege of Leningrad was hard going.

[barcahibs]

Crikey, and I thought being caught up in the siege of Leningrad was hard going.

Of course it wasn't that bad in the scheme of things there's worse things happening all over the world and of course she coped with it fine - though apparently her pals family weren't too happy :tee hee: but when she left for work that morning it was hardly how she expected her day to pan out was it? Can you blame her for being unhappy to be stuck in that situation away from her kid - for possibly the first time in her life? Can you blame her for being unhappy to hear the politician in charge seemingly dismissing her worry?

For us modern citizens of 21st century Britain that level of inconvenience and disruption is simply unacceptable to most - rightly or wrongly its a fact. As I said in my post the actual disruption wasn't really the issue, it was no-ones fault and probably couldn't have been prevented, it was the reaction and initial media statements of the man in charge that caused the fury.

[lapsedhibee]

When she left for work that morning it was hardly how she expected her day to pan out was it?

Does she have some special mental health issue that requires every day of her life to pan out exactly as she expects it to?


Can you blame her for being unhappy to be stuck in that situation away from her kid - for possibly the first time in her life?

There was bound to be a first time for that at some point - or was she planning never to let the child leave home?

Can you blame her for being unhappy to hear the politician in charge seemingly dismissing her worry?

Obviously your friend's child should have been number one priority for Stewart Stevenson all through Monday, including Monday night when he made his mildly insensitive remarks.


For us modern citizens of 21st century Britain that level of inconvenience and disruption is simply unacceptable to most - rightly or wrongly its a fact. As I said in my post the actual disruption wasn't really the issue, it was no-ones fault and probably couldn't have been prevented, it was the reaction and initial media statements of the man in charge that caused the fury.
FFS. "Fury"? :confused:

Not meaning to come across aggressively toward you, but don't you think your friend needs to get a bit - in fact a lot - of perspective? :dunno:

[barcahibs]

Does she have some special mental health issue that requires every day of her life to pan out exactly as she expects it to?


There was bound to be a first time for that at some point - or was she planning never to let the child leave home?

Obviously your friend's child should have been number one priority for Stewart Stevenson all through Monday, including Monday night when he made his mildly insensitive remarks.


FFS. "Fury"? :confused:

Not meaning to come across aggressively toward you, but don't you think your friend needs to get a bit - in fact a lot - of perspective? :dunno:

Its alright I'm not taking you as aggressive

To be fair I think we're arguing different points. I'm not trying to claim her problems were so traumatic that the world should have to stop and take notice. I don't think even she was claiming that, she's a pretty capable person and took most of it her stride - her husband was flapping though :greengrin. I was mildly inconvenienced myself by the whole affair as were hundreds of thousands all over the country. I'm sure loads were in a much worse situation and I'm sure the vast majority of the country just shrugged and got on with it (like I did, I'm such a hero :greengrin )
I can assure you she was absloutely furious at the statement though. Not the situation, the statement. Though I'm sure being stuck in the cold with no immediate idea of what she was going to do next didn't help her mood.

The point I'm trying to make (badly) is that no politician could expect to survive the statement he made that day. It was a bloody stupid thing to say and he was doomed from that point on. It may be unfair, but so's life.

By the way I don't doubt that individually those who were trying to clear up the mess were doing a first class job, or at least trying to. Human nature says someone has to carry the can though and in this case the buck stops at the transport minister and his ill-chosen words.

Incidentally just to add to the tales of woe another friend of mine works in a store in the weeg and had to spend the night in the shop as the store stayed open throughout to attract the passing trade from people walking home. Store management helpfully informed them that if they wanted any blankets they would have to buy them off the shelf. Someone else needing to resign there IMO but they're not a politician so they'll probably get a bonus instead.

[lucky]

Stevenson had to go, He claimed on Monday night that the Governments response had been first class. When pressed he refused to apologise to the 100's of motorist stranded on motorways around central Scotland. It was his arrogant attitude which was his downfall and that was the reason the press went after him. The opposition parties then seized on this and Salmond push the panic bottom and got rid of him.

However this is not his first major gaff as a minister this was the same transport minister who gave scotrail and extension to their franchise and allowed Scotrail to announce it to the stock exchange without any prior notice to the parliament. Then it transpired the official in charge of negotiations on behalf of the minister was a shareholder in First group

[col02]

I take no pleasure at all in having seen this guy chased out of his job! The snow fell at a rate that was beyond controlled measures but they still tried to keep it clear. The temperature was too low for grit to work but they still gritted roads to try minimise risk to travellers that had been warned to only travel if really required to do so. I also think it worth mentioning that workers and operators responsible for Winter road duties are open to the same travelling conditions as everyone else and as such would have struggled to get to work in some cases. Personally speaking I seen enough gritters and snow ploughs out on the roads in Edinburgh to suggest they were trying pretty damned hard to keep routes open.

I find it pretty sad that we always have to have a fall guy when things go wrong as this points to the fact that too many people are unable of taking responsibilty for their own actions anymore and it will only get worse as it becomes more and more accepted as a trait to let others make choices for you.

[Hibbyradge]

I stand rebuked.

However, an alternative accurate description might be something along the lines of "cynical corrupt self-serving incompetent arrogant dishonest lying degenerates."

That takes too long to type out every time.

And I was thinking of the long-established and entirely accurate observation that in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and Ayrshire you can pin a red rosette on a monkey and the voters will vote it in.

The Right Honourable Sir Michael Martin, Privy Councillor, Baron Martin of Springburn, member of the House of Lords in New Labour's interest, for instance?

No, you're right. I apologise unreservedly - to the monkeys.

I don't want, nor expect an apology.

I just thought I'd help by pointing out that because of your insults, your opinions on this and other political matters aren't as weighty as they might have been.

To me anyway!

Another free service provided by Lord Radge of Hibby. :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Stevenson had to go, He claimed on Monday night that the Governments response had been first class. When pressed he refused to apologise to the 100's of motorist stranded on motorways around central Scotland. It was his arrogant attitude which was his downfall and that was the reason the press went after him. The opposition parties then seized on this and Salmond push the panic bottom and got rid of him.


They certainly did, in one of the more tawdry episodes in the parly's short history. Made me mildly embarrassed to be Scotch, so it did to be sure.

What I want to know is, though, in the same way that PMs come out and apologise for the slave trade etc, whose responsibility will it be to apologise for all the heavy snowfalls in the history of Scotland? I mean, is that a devolved matter and the new Minister of Transport can do it? Or will it have to be someone in Westminster who apologises for all the falls before 1999, or what? :confused:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just a thought, but should the Health minister resign because hospitals should be staffed over capacity in case staff can't get in due to snow. Should the Education minister resign because schools don't have proper snow clearing equipment and facilities for kids and teachers to sleep over.

We could end up spending a fortune - just in case.

[Twa Cairpets]

The point I'm trying to make (badly) is that no politician could expect to survive the statement he made that day. It was a bloody stupid thing to say and he was doomed from that point on. It may be unfair, but so's life.

If it was unfair then it is wrong - Black and white. The "life's like that" approach is not a defence.


By the way I don't doubt that individually those who were trying to clear up the mess were doing a first class job, or at least trying to. Human nature says someone has to carry the can though and in this case the buck stops at the transport minister and his ill-chosen words.

If that is true, then lets blame human nature. Thats so bloody depressing.

[marinello59]

Stevenson shouldn't have had to resign over the handling of this issue. How depressing is it that the answer to everything is find a scapegoat.
I am not sorry he is gone though, he shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

[lapsedhibee]

Stevenson shouldn't have had to resign over the handling of this issue. How depressing is it that the answer to everything is find a scapegoat.

Things haven't been the same around here since AOB was hounded out.

[marinello59]

Things haven't been the same around here since AOB was hounded out.

Nish is still sticking in there. All it will take to force him out now is a deragatory Sun headline.:agree:

[--------]

Is that all politcians or just some? :cool2:


Increasingly, I'm afraid all but a very small minority - the colour of the rosette doesn't seem to matter.

:bitchy:

[barcahibs]

If it was unfair then it is wrong - Black and white. The "life's like that" approach is not a defence.


Life's like that is a defence because... life's like that. We're not dealing with a perfect world just the one we've got. A world where unfair things didn't happen would indeed be a better place but it'll never be the world we live in.

In fact it reminds me of a Jack Handey quote
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." :greengrin

Just to reiterate, I don't believe the chaos on Monday was his fault, I don't think anything could have been done to prevent it. I don't have any real idea of how these things work but I would doubt - in fact hope - that he had anything to do with the nitty gritty of actually developing any sort of snow response plan. That is not a job for a politician. His job on Monday (IMO) was to communicate with the public and possibly obtain resources and clear the way for those actually doing the work. (Probably a really simplistic view of his job but it doesn't really matter.)
I've no idea how he did with the second part of that but he failed with the first.

As a politician he lives and dies by his words and his public perception. In the end there could be no other result than his resignation.

All just IMO of course.



If that is true, then lets blame human nature. Thats so bloody depressing.

Agreed. Completely. But its still (IMO) true.

[hibsbollah]

Stevenson shouldn't have had to resign over the handling of this issue. How depressing is it that the answer to everything is find a scapegoat.

Why does poor Lewis always get the blame?:grr:

[khib70]

Nish is still sticking in there. All it will take to force him out now is a deragatory Sun headline.:agree:
Well at least the snow allowed people to demonstrate their solidarity with Colin Nish by lumbering about helplessly and frequently falling on their erses.:devil:

[ancienthibby]

Have a word with yourself - and a large chill pill!!


Using these phrases and insults betray your bias, undermines your points and, at best, doesn't win anyone to your point of view.


This is a fans forum, not a forum for Socratic rhetoric!!

I think this resignation was totally unnecessary and I'm sick to death of the blame culture in which we live.

However, your childish insults make me want to defend what I disagree with.

And you are the poster who started a thread about a female celebrity chef and then tells another poster GIRUY!!

Pot and kettle.

[Twa Cairpets]

Life's like that is a defence because... life's like that. We're not dealing with a perfect world just the one we've got. A world where unfair things didn't happen would indeed be a better place but it'll never be the world we live in.


Sorry to press this point, but that is the cop-outest of cop-outs.

If it a matter of random chance, then fine. If you are stuck on a train for hours because a tree fallen on the line for example then fine - these things happen. If it is something we have control over (like the response to a ministers ill thought out words), then it is not a case of "lifes like that" if we have any pretence to being a mature nation.

As a secondary point, I would much, much prefer politicians not living in perpetual fear of their jobs by misjudging a word or sentence. The only outcome of this will be even more anodynely indistinguishable representatives. We should not expect politicians to be infallible - we should expect them to be honest but that is abou the extent of it.

The Stevenson resignation in the grand scheme of things is of fairly minimal importance except for the precedent it sets for what is said by politicians and ministers. What the majority will say now will be so totally neutral as to avoid potential offence as to be utterly pointless.

[Bad Martini]

Still, we have folk suggesting this clown shouldn't have resigned (the only thing he DID do correct...and done so, before being pushed...lets all lavish some praise on him for honourably leaving the government, no doubt will full and unaffected pension entitlement and whatever else he'll get).

The truth here is, he ****ed up.

NOBODY said the snow was his fault.
NOBODY said there was all THAT much that could have been differently (once it happened as it did) but that is very much beside the point.
NOBODY said other parties (who I rate even worse than the SNP incidentally) would have done any better.

What WAS said here was this; Stevenson made an arse of getting the message out to the people of Scotland. I FULLY agree SOME of those people are ***** for going out as they would have done so regardless. But, when we have almost 1000 folk stuck on a motorway in sub zero conditions, PARTLY caused by someone responsible for doing something about it, NOT doing that, why shouldn't he be critisised?

Was Yogi responsible himself for our run of results? Did he **** up the chances the forwards missed, screw up the passes the midfielders didn't make and let in the goals the defenders helped leak? Nope. He didn't kick a ball. It's called, responsibility...why he ultimately walked...I fail to see the difference here....

An arrogant government minister not dealing with his PART of the mess, is what's up for discussion as opposed to the snow itself, who would have done things differently and all the rest.

All IMHO of course :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Have a word with yourself - and a large chill pill!!



And you are the poster who started a thread about a female celebrity chef and then tells another poster GIRUY!!

Pot and kettle.

The Nigella thread was clearly meant to be childish and light hearted and the GIRUY remark was a joke, hence the smiley after it.

This thread is a serious debate and the insults detracted from it, imo.

However, chill pill now digested as per your advice.

edit: I just saw your remark about this being a site for fans, not a not a forum for Socratic rhetoric. Do you remember that when you complain about posters' blasphemy?

[Sir David Gray]

The man was minister for Transport, not minister for snow. We have to have some balance in these things, and if everybody was sacked for not doing their job properly we'd have a lot of people on the dole.

A sense of perspective is needed. I don't recall anybody dying in the snow. I do remember a man being trapped in his car for two weeks, up north, in 1979. Then everybody said, it's a miracle he survived. Now everyone would be saying that we should have done more to melt the 8 feet of snow his car was under.

It really is time we got away from this blame culture. The people to blame were the ones who undertook their journeys without proper preparation. Aybody leaving home that morning could see pictures on TV (iif they weren't brght enough to look out of their own window and put two and two together).

I feel that these people whingeing are in the same league as people who phone up the polis because they have run out of Brussels sprouts on Xmas day, or who present at A&E with a blister on their thumb. They should be made to wear special uniforms for our safety.

Of course he was minister for transport and not for snow but our transport links were affected last week as a result of the weather and that was within the remit of the Transport Minister.


Still, we have folk suggesting this clown shouldn't have resigned (the only thing he DID do correct...and done so, before being pushed...lets all lavish some praise on him for honourably leaving the government, no doubt will full and unaffected pension entitlement and whatever else he'll get).

The truth here is, he ****ed up.

NOBODY said the snow was his fault.
NOBODY said there was all THAT much that could have been differently (once it happened as it did) but that is very much beside the point.
NOBODY said other parties (who I rate even worse than the SNP incidentally) would have done any better.

What WAS said here was this; Stevenson made an arse of getting the message out to the people of Scotland. I FULLY agree SOME of those people are ***** for going out as they would have done so regardless. But, when we have almost 1000 folk stuck on a motorway in sub zero conditions, PARTLY caused by someone responsible for doing something about it, NOT doing that, why shouldn't he be critisised?

Was Yogi responsible himself for our run of results? Did he **** up the chances the forwards missed, screw up the passes the midfielders didn't make and let in the goals the defenders helped leak? Nope. He didn't kick a ball. It's called, responsibility...why he ultimately walked...I fail to see the difference here....

An arrogant government minister not dealing with his PART of the mess, is what's up for discussion as opposed to the snow itself, who would have done things differently and all the rest.

All IMHO of course :greengrin

Hear, hear. :agree:

[Twa Cairpets]

Still, we have folk suggesting this clown shouldn't have resigned (the only thing he DID do correct...and done so, before being pushed...lets all lavish some praise on him for honourably leaving the government, no doubt will full and unaffected pension entitlement and whatever else he'll get).

The truth here is, he ****ed up.

NOBODY said the snow was his fault.
NOBODY said there was all THAT much that could have been differently (once it happened as it did) but that is very much beside the point.
NOBODY said other parties (who I rate even worse than the SNP incidentally) would have done any better.

What WAS said here was this; Stevenson made an arse of getting the message out to the people of Scotland. I FULLY agree SOME of those people are ***** for going out as they would have done so regardless. But, when we have almost 1000 folk stuck on a motorway in sub zero conditions, PARTLY caused by someone responsible for doing something about it, NOT doing that, why shouldn't he be critisised?

Was Yogi responsible himself for our run of results? Did he **** up the chances the forwards missed, screw up the passes the midfielders didn't make and let in the goals the defenders helped leak? Nope. He didn't kick a ball. It's called, responsibility...why he ultimately walked...I fail to see the difference here....

An arrogant government minister not dealing with his PART of the mess, is what's up for discussion as opposed to the snow itself, who would have done things differently and all the rest.

All IMHO of course :greengrin

Sorry BM, the premise upon which you base the criticism is just wrong.

The people were stuck on the motorway because of the weather, not because of his response. His response was poor, but ultimately (if, as you say yourself, no-one would have done any better) his removal from post was to satisfy the need to apportion blame rather, which is my problem.

I dont know Stevensons record, and wasnt aware of him partiucalrly before this. He may well be an incompetent clown and the worst minister we've ever had - I dont know - but the reason for him going was utterly pathetic, and to my mind damages the political process hugely.

[ancienthibby]

The Nigella thread was clearly meant to be childish and light hearted and the GIRUY remark was a joke, hence the smiley after it.

This thread is a serious debate and the insults detracted from it, imo.

However, chill pill now digested as per your advice.

edit: I just saw your remark about this being a site for fans, not a not a forum for Socratic rhetoric. Do you remember that when you complain about posters' blasphemy?

Help me understand the connection you see here!!

[ancienthibby]

Sorry BM, the premise upon which you base the criticism is just wrong.

The people were stuck on the motorway because of the weather, not because of his response. His response was poor, but ultimately (if, as you say yourself, no-one would have done any better) his removal from post was to satisfy the need to apportion blame rather, which is my problem.

I dont know Stevensons record, and wasnt aware of him partiucalrly before this. He may well be an incompetent clown and the worst minister we've ever had - I dont know - but the reason for him going was utterly pathetic, and to my mind damages the political process hugely.


A couple of points, TC,

First the campaign for Stevenson to resign was first whipped up by Gordon Brewer on Newsnight. It was picked up the next day in the form of Charlie Gordon of Labour and abetted by Alison MacInnes of the LibDems.

It was made against a weakened Government with little time to run before the next election.

Second, earlier in this thread I described Labour as 'LostLabour' and got smacked for that. But the reason I made that connection is that, IMHO, Labour, in this parliament, have completely lost their way, and now have only one policy, called: 'Get the Nats' They rounded up the same cabal of mindless protestors when Fiona Hyslop lost her job as education Minister. The irony there was that the SNP Government actually was strengthened by bringing Mike Russell into the Goverment.

I give some credit to the Tories in this debacle since their Jackson Carlaw, again on Newsnight, completely distanced themselves from the antics of 'LostLabour'.

The truth of the matter is that this has not nothing to do with transport or snow but everything to do with the full implementation of LostLabour's only policy north of the Border: 'Get the Nats'!

[Hibbyradge]

[/B]

Help me understand the connection you see here!!

I think you see the connection.

However, you suggested I take a chill pill because it's a "fans forum".

Well, as you know, fans also don't believe in God and they choose to use what you describe as "blasphemous language" when they see fit.

So, following your logic, you'll be needing the chill pills too.

To paraphrase your good self, it's a fans forum, not a forum for pious rhetoric.

[ancienthibby]

I think you see the connection.

However, you suggested I take a chill pill because it's a "fans forum".

Well, as you know, fans also don't believe in God and they choose to use what you describe as "blasphemous language" when they see fit.

So, following your logic, you'll be needing the chill pills too.

To paraphrase your good self, it's a fans forum, not a forum for pious rhetoric.

Thanks for taking the bait:devil:

First, the use of blasphemy on this forum should be outlawed, because it would never be tolerated on other public forums, such as the letters pages of your own daily newspaper.

Second, pious rhetoric never enters my space. What has, however, is faith. Someday that might just get you too!!:greengrin

[barcahibs]

Sorry to press this point, but that is the cop-outest of cop-outs.

If it a matter of random chance, then fine. If you are stuck on a train for hours because a tree fallen on the line for example then fine - these things happen. If it is something we have control over (like the response to a ministers ill thought out words), then it is not a case of "lifes like that" if we have any pretence to being a mature nation.

As a secondary point, I would much, much prefer politicians not living in perpetual fear of their jobs by misjudging a word or sentence. The only outcome of this will be even more anodynely indistinguishable representatives. We should not expect politicians to be infallible - we should expect them to be honest but that is abou the extent of it.

The Stevenson resignation in the grand scheme of things is of fairly minimal importance except for the precedent it sets for what is said by politicians and ministers. What the majority will say now will be so totally neutral as to avoid potential offence as to be utterly pointless.

Who said we had any pretence to be a mature nation? Come to that who said we had any pretence to being a mature species? People will always look to apportion blame. Part of a politicians job is to take that blame (or push it somewhere else if they can) Thats what politicians do.
Again, to labour the point, if we were talking about the civil servant actually in charge of keeping the roads clear, or any of those actually involved on the ground I would not want them to have to resign over something like this. We're not, we're talking about a politician, his primary job is to communicate with the public. He failed. He lives and dies by his words.

Bad Martini mentions Yogi below and thats actually not a bad comparison. Without wishing to stir up another argument :greengrin, in the opinion of some people (including me) Yogi was not wholly responsible for the situation Hibs were towards the end of his tenure. There were (IMO) a whole load of extenuating circumstances, I felt he had a vision and was working towards it slowly and would in the end turn us around. However on the day he resigned I was talking to some friends and concluded he'd made the right decision in going. He'd done nothing particularly wrong (again only IMO), it wasn't his fault we were in freefall but he had lost the support of the crowd, and by some statements, the dressing room. He had no choice but to resign.

IMO Stevenson was in the same position. Rightly or wrongly after he made that statement his career as transport minister was over. I'm sure he realised that himself not long after as did his party and their leader.
I actually think he's managed to come out of this just about as well as he possibly could. He had a limited number of political choices, by hanging on for a week, allowing the immediate crisis to pass and giving his party and their leader the time to rally round and declare public support he's managed to build up an image of a man who's done nothing wrong but was forced to honourably fall on his sword in the face of a hostile media and childish party political games from the opposition. His decision to accept the blame and leave to prevent further damage to his party and the government looks principled and he gains the sympathy of many who would otherwise have been calling for his head. I'm sure the whole exit strategy was planned out between him and the party leadership in the immediate aftermath.

I think this may just come down to a fundamental difference in world views. Mine is probably hugely cynical but I firmly beleive thats how the world works and given the limitations of our political system (and fundamentally our limitations as a species), is the only way the world ever can work. It would be nice if it was otherwise but it'll never be so. I doubt we're going to change each others opinions on this via a messageboard :greengrin

Politicians will continue to become more anodyne and risk averse, and as every facet of live slowly merges into politics so will society in general. It shouldn't oughta be so, but it is. C'est la vie.

[Hibbyradge]

Thanks for taking the bait:devil:



Nice try!




First, the use of blasphemy on this forum should be outlawed, because it would never be tolerated on other public forums, such as the letters pages of your own daily newspaper.



There are lots of freely available publications which allow much more than just blasphemy. Indeed, many films and TV programmes don't administer such rigorous censorship as you would have us apply.




Second, pious rhetoric never enters my space. What has, however, is faith. Someday that might just get you too!!:greengrin

:hilarious See what you did there? Comedy genius! :greengrin

[ancienthibby]

Nice try!



There are lots of freely available publications which allow much more than just blasphemy. Indeed, many films and TV programmes don't administer such rigorous censorship as you would have us apply.



:hilarious See what you did there? Comedy genius! :greengrin

You are already in my prayers!:agree:

[Bad Martini]

Sorry BM, the premise upon which you base the criticism is just wrong.

The people were stuck on the motorway because of the weather, not because of his response. His response was poor, but ultimately (if, as you say yourself, no-one would have done any better) his removal from post was to satisfy the need to apportion blame rather, which is my problem.

I dont know Stevensons record, and wasnt aware of him partiucalrly before this. He may well be an incompetent clown and the worst minister we've ever had - I dont know - but the reason for him going was utterly pathetic, and to my mind damages the political process hugely.

My issue with the man was his inability to tell the truth for a kick-off ... my next issue was his inability to deal with the situation (whilst proceeding to tell everyone how well things were going, as hundreds were stuck on the M8, in -14 conditions) and then to have the ordasity to blame someone else.

Had he said, I ****ed up, sorry and told the truth, I'd have said fair dues. You ****ed up but at least you told the truth about it. Some jobs allow you tell little white lies and get away with it. If you're in charge of the transport system for an entire country, you fail to avert transport chaos, you LIE about it then you blame someoene else.........and then we find out, how CAN you possibly continue in the job? IMHO, you canny. Glad he went....




[/B]
First the campaign for Stevenson to resign was first whipped up by Gordon Brewer on Newsnight. It was picked up the next day in the form of Charlie Gordon of Labour and abetted by Alison MacInnes of the LibDems.

It was made against a weakened Government with little time to run before the next election.

Second, earlier in this thread I described Labour as 'LostLabour' and got smacked for that. But the reason I made that connection is that, IMHO, Labour, in this parliament, have completely lost their way, and now have only one policy, called: 'Get the Nats' They rounded up the same cabal of mindless protestors when Fiona Hyslop lost her job as education Minister. The irony there was that the SNP Government actually was strengthened by bringing Mike Russell into the Goverment.

I give some credit to the Tories in this debacle since their Jackson Carlaw, again on Newsnight, completely distanced themselves from the antics of 'LostLabour'.

The truth of the matter is that this has not nothing to do with transport or snow but everything to do with the full implementation of LostLabour's only policy north of the Border: 'Get the Nats'!

I agree the torries/lib dems and labour mob generally are more interested in a "get the Nats" policy than dealing with the **** we have (and I do agree the torrie you mention on Newsnight uncharacteristically for a torrie was impecable in his behaviour and DIDNT do this - respect for that) but, Stevenson deserved what he got IMHO.

Ordinarily, I'd agree with the mantra that the "get the Nats" ***** blights our politics and having voted SNP last time out, I have nae agenda here.

Equally, Salmond loves a good square up to the torries as does Sturgeon. Dont get me wrong, I prefer the nats to the rest but they (to me) aren't that much better than the rest. Gies the referendum then we'll see who's running for office in the Independent Scotland...........THAT interests me...

[Hibbyradge]

Had he said, I ****ed up, sorry and told the truth, I'd have said fair dues.

But he didn't ***k up, so why would he say that?

[khib70]

Thanks for taking the bait:devil:

First, the use of blasphemy on this forum should be outlawed, because it would never be tolerated on other public forums, such as the letters pages of your own daily newspaper.

Second, pious rhetoric never enters my space. What has, however, is faith. Someday that might just get you too!!:greengrin
Absolutely! In any fair democratic society, the superstitious beliefs of a minority of the population should be the the very yardstick of public moral standards:rolleyes:

Jehovah! I said it again! I'm only making it worse for myself!

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought Swinney handled the situation quite well yesterday, especially his common sense appeal to hauliers: why go out if you are just going to waste fuel, hang back a day and give your employee the day off.

[RyeSloan]

I thought Swinney handled the situation quite well yesterday, especially his common sense appeal to hauliers: why go out if you are just going to waste fuel, hang back a day and give your employee the day off.

Was that really common sense...aye just don't go out. Does he really think all hauliers are local doing short trips? A lot of these HGV's travel the length of the country and would probably have no option and little control on the fact that they were where they were at that moment....and what about their wages was he suggesting that companies shoudl just pay their staff for doing nothing all day.

Let's be honest for every terrible day like that Mondau there has been 10 false warnings of doom...if hauliers were to heed these everytime then they would be losing fortunes.

I think the long term solution would be to a) build proper infrastructure in the first place (two lane part motorway between our main population bases c'mon) and b) have contingencies and plans in place for severe incidents/weather rather than blaming it on hauliers.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Was that really common sense...aye just don't go out. Does he really think all hauliers are local doing short trips? A lot of these HGV's travel the length of the country and would probably have no option and little control on the fact that they were where they were at that moment....and what about their wages was he suggesting that companies shoudl just pay their staff for doing nothing all day.

Let's be honest for every terrible day like that Mondau there has been 10 false warnings of doom...if hauliers were to heed these everytime then they would be losing fortunes.

I think the long term solution would be to a) build proper infrastructure in the first place (two lane part motorway between our main population bases c'mon) and b) have contingencies and plans in place for severe incidents/weather rather than blaming it on hauliers.

I'm not blaming the hauliers, and I don't think Swinney was either. I was just admiring the common sense way he put his message across, if the road is already blocked, why bother going out?

I agree about the contingencies. How about a sticker scheme for people who have essential work to do, anybody not sporting the sticker could be stopped by the polis and asked to explain why their journey is essential.

Another idea would be the closure of retail parks, which act as a magnet for the motorist. Just as people can find out what schools are open on the internet, they could also be informed that the shops are shut.

On the way back from my work (which could probably be described as essential) last week, I saw people driving in and out of Craigleith Retail Park. What was on sale there that made people think a journey to the shops was essential?

I'm just brainstorming ideas here, and maybe someone can "piggy back" and come up with other suggestions. I dare say there are good reasons my ideas won't work, but at least it's a start.

[lapsedhibee]

Craigleith Retail Park. What was on sale there that made people think a journey to the shops was essential?


Necessities for some sort of festival towards the end of this month, perhap?

[Beefster]

I'm not blaming the hauliers, and I don't think Swinney was either. I was just admiring the common sense way he put his message across, if the road is already blocked, why bother going out?

I agree about the contingencies. How about a sticker scheme for people who have essential work to do, anybody not sporting the sticker could be stopped by the polis and asked to explain why their journey is essential.

Another idea would be the closure of retail parks, which act as a magnet for the motorist. Just as people can find out what schools are open on the internet, they could also be informed that the shops are shut.

On the way back from my work (which could probably be described as essential) last week, I saw people driving in and out of Craigleith Retail Park. What was on sale there that made people think a journey to the shops was essential?

I'm just brainstorming ideas here, and maybe someone can "piggy back" and come up with other suggestions. I dare say there are good reasons my ideas won't work, but at least it's a start.

Probably something like us living in a free country where shops need to make money and we don't have to justify our lawful actions (where there is no suggestion of an offence having been committed) to the authorities. If folk have been warned not to travel but need/choose to do so anyway and then get stuck, it's their own responsibility.

[--------]

[/B]

A couple of points, TC,

First the campaign for Stevenson to resign was first whipped up by Gordon Brewer on Newsnight. It was picked up the next day in the form of Charlie Gordon of Labour and abetted by Alison MacInnes of the LibDems.

It was made against a weakened Government with little time to run before the next election.

Second, earlier in this thread I described Labour as 'LostLabour' and got smacked for that. But the reason I made that connection is that, IMHO, Labour, in this parliament, have completely lost their way, and now have only one policy, called: 'Get the Nats' They rounded up the same cabal of mindless protestors when Fiona Hyslop lost her job as education Minister. The irony there was that the SNP Government actually was strengthened by bringing Mike Russell into the Goverment.

I give some credit to the Tories in this debacle since their Jackson Carlaw, again on Newsnight, completely distanced themselves from the antics of 'LostLabour'.

The truth of the matter is that this has not nothing to do with transport or snow but everything to do with the full implementation of LostLabour's only policy north of the Border: 'Get the Nats'!


This I would agree with, except that IMO you're being far too kind to Gray and his cronies (and their pals in the LibDems). They haven't IMO 'lost their way' - they want to be back in power so badly that they're up for anything to get there.

Discontent always works against the serving government. This bad weather has been a big bonus for Gray and Labour (I'm being good) - they can pontificate about government failure without ever having to explain how exactly they would have managed to do any better. In this they're ably assisted by their pals at the Beeb - BeebScotland and gordon Brewer on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark's one of theirs as well.

When North Lanarkshire (run by Scottish Labour) grinds to a halt for the second successive winter - no lessons learned here, I assure you - and we ask for the street into the local GP clinic to be cleared, we're told that access to medical treatment 'is not a priority'. When we contact our councillor (Labour) we're told 'nothing I can do'. MSP (Labour) - same answer. MP (Labour) - same answer.

The blame gets laid on 'budget levels' set by 'government' - budget levels, unless I've totally misunderstood, set initially by the Westminster government under the Barnett Formula. Now let me think - who set the budget levels for this financial year? Could it have been a LABOUR Chancellor working under a LABOUR Prime Minister, the very same Chancellor and PM responsible for the financial crisis the country now finds it self struggling through?

Gordon is a despicable wee Labour yes-man who has his job as the reward for his support of his Leader. The Leader himself has a less than oustanding reputation in his own constituency - I have many friends in East Lothian, and most of them refer to dear Ian as The Chocolate Tea-Pot. The Liberals will do ANYTHING for ANYONE - sell whatever shabby principles remain to them to them for the faintest sniff of a minister's limo.

I'm still struggling to work out HOW EXACTLY one goes about 'INSULTING' people who behave as those people do? :confused:

[Beefster]

The Leader himself has a less than oustanding reputation in his own constituency - I have many friends in East Lothian, and most of them refer to dear Ian as The Chocolate Tea-Pot.

I've had dealings with the MP and MSP for Midlothian and Iain Gray in the last five or so years. They're all Labour politicians so I've nothing much in common with any of them but Gray was by far the least ineffective and 'lightweight'. When, not if, he becomes First Minister, we'll have reached a new low in the Scottish Parliament's history.

I reckon most of the voting public in East Lothian wouldn't recognise him if he pitched up at their door. The county was just a convenient safe seat to keep him in the Parliament.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I've had dealings with the MP and MSP for Midlothian and Iain Gray in the last five or so years. They're all Labour politicians so I've nothing much in common with any of them but Gray was by far the least ineffective and 'lightweight'. When, not if, he becomes First Minister, we'll have reached a new low in the Scottish Parliament's history.

I reckon most of the voting public in East Lothian wouldn't recognise him if he pitched up at their door. The county was just a convenient safe seat to keep him in the Parliament.

He ended up there because he was beaten by David "taxi!" McLetchie in 2003 in Pentlands.

[ancienthibby]

I've had dealings with the MP and MSP for Midlothian and Iain Gray in the last five or so years. They're all Labour politicians so I've nothing much in common with any of them but Gray was by far the least ineffective and 'lightweight'. When, not if, he becomes First Minister, we'll have reached a new low in the Scottish Parliament's history.

I reckon most of the voting public in East Lothian wouldn't recognise him if he pitched up at their door. The county was just a convenient safe seat to keep him in the Parliament.

Mr Beefster,

If that happens, will you please turn off the lights on Auld Scotia on your way out.

If Labour do get in:grr: this country will be returned to the Dark Ages,:agree:

[steakbake]

I've had dealings with the MP and MSP for Midlothian and Iain Gray in the last five or so years. They're all Labour politicians so I've nothing much in common with any of them but Gray was by far the least ineffective and 'lightweight'. When, not if, he becomes First Minister, we'll have reached a new low in the Scottish Parliament's history.

I reckon most of the voting public in East Lothian wouldn't recognise him if he pitched up at their door. The county was just a convenient safe seat to keep him in the Parliament.

Yeah, sadly for the country, he will be the next FM. No doubt he's got good intentions and sincerely held opinions etc, but he is one of the lightest of the lightweights. Even bruiser/blusterer Andy Kerr would be better as Labour leader.

However, overall the quality of MSPs across the board is shocking just now. They seem so hellbent on being partisan just for the sake of it that, to be honest, the voters are being let down time and again. I'm not saying that everything has to be consensus politics all the way, but people can be reasonable, rational and try to set some of their ideologies aside to come up with solutions to problems.

Gray's tearing up of the Snp's election manifesto at FMQs was just the sort of pitiful political gimmick that characterises the basement calibre of politicians in Holyrood. Can you imagine Ed Miliband doing that at PMQs in Westminster? I bet the thought would not even cross his speechwriter's mind, let alone would he agree to do it. He'd be ridiculed and seriously lose credibility amongst the opinion formers in the media.

Somehow in Scotland, we just accept that this is the quality of the choice we're given every 4/5 years.

[--------]

Yeah, sadly for the country, he will be the next FM. No doubt he's got good intentions and sincerely held opinions etc, but he is one of the lightest of the lightweights. Even bruiser/blusterer Andy Kerr would be better as Labour leader.

However, overall the quality of MSPs across the board is shocking just now. They seem so hellbent on being partisan just for the sake of it that, to be honest, the voters are being let down time and again. I'm not saying that everything has to be consensus politics all the way, but people can be reasonable, rational and try to set some of their ideologies aside to come up with solutions to problems.

Gray's tearing up of the Snp's election manifesto at FMQs was just the sort of pitiful political gimmick that characterises the basement calibre of politicians in Holyrood. Can you imagine Ed Miliband doing that at PMQs in Westminster? I bet the thought would not even cross his speechwriter's mind, let alone would he agree to do it. He'd be ridiculed and seriously lose credibility amongst the opinion formers in the media.

Somehow in Scotland, we just accept that this is the quality of the choice we're given every 4/5 years.


Sadly, you're absolutely right. :agree:

[Hibbyradge]

An extreme weather warning is in place for Edinburgh, Lothian and Borders today, with some 15 to 20cm (6-8in) of snow expected between 1100 and 1800 GMT.

Heads must roll. :agree:

[Bad Martini]

An extreme weather warning is in place for Edinburgh, Lothian and Borders today, with some 15 to 20cm (6-8in) of snow expected between 1100 and 1800 GMT.

Heads must roll. :agree:

By virtue of your knowing, do you think anything more could be done? I seem to recall seeing notices, news flashes etc and stuff going out suggesting when and where people should/should not attempt to drive over this whole weekend.

Nobody was ever suggesting the government could put up a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really big brolly and stop the snow. Merely, they could have made the appropriate plans and told people the appropriate script....

Anyways, all's well that ends well....the numpty in question is no longer in charge of what he was therefore, for me, ENDOF.

Sorted :thumbsup:

[Hibbyradge]

By virtue of your knowing, do you think anything more could be done? I seem to recall seeing notices, news flashes etc and stuff going out suggesting when and where people should/should not attempt to drive over this whole weekend.

Nobody was ever suggesting the government could put up a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really big brolly and stop the snow. Merely, they could have made the appropriate plans and told people the appropriate script....

Anyways, all's well that ends well....the numpty in question is no longer in charge of what he was therefore, for me, ENDOF.

Sorted :thumbsup:

The warnings were issued last time too.

As you say, the witch has been burned so we move on. Albeit slowly and carefully.

[Bad Martini]

The warnings were issued last time too.

As you say, the witch has been burned so we move on. Albeit slowly and carefully.

:aok: ... slowly and carefully does it......to be fair last time, they couldn't have gone much more slowly and carefully on the M8 unless we consider 0.0000000000947837mph "rapid progress" :cool2:

Movin on.....:thumbsup:

[derekHFC]

I appreciate that the weather on Sunday wasn't as bad as the last time, but where is the well done posts for the gritters and snow ploughs?? Everyone was quick to slate them when things went wrong....... :devil:

[Jack]

I appreciate that the weather on Sunday wasn't as bad as the last time, but where is the well done posts for the gritters and snow ploughs?? Everyone was quick to slate them when things went wrong....... :devil:

TBH still not seen one working. :cool2:

Saw a wee mini-plough go along the pavement down Easter Road about an hour ago. Fat lot of use with its blade up and nae salt/grit coming out the back. It could have been going back for more but there was little evidence on ER that it had done anything previously.

[Bad Martini]

I appreciate that the weather on Sunday wasn't as bad as the last time, but where is the well done posts for the gritters and snow ploughs?? Everyone was quick to slate them when things went wrong....... :devil:

Fair dues. A good point.

It comes, once per month, to us all in employment, doing what we're paid to do. It's called, payday :greengrin :devil:

...a braw wee system; we dae some work - they gie us some money. It's like sayin thanks to the bus driver when ye get oaf the bus...never understood that one either ( I dae it tho...but I dinny have tae :greengrin)

Ach **** it. WELL DONE GRITTER DUDES....:aok:

[derekHFC]

Fair dues. A good point.

It comes, once per month, to us all in employment, doing what we're paid to do. It's called, payday :greengrin :devil:

...a braw wee system; we dae some work - they gie us some money. It's like sayin thanks to the bus driver when ye get oaf the bus...never understood that one either ( I dae it tho...but I dinny have tae :greengrin)

Ach **** it. WELL DONE GRITTER DUDES....:aok:

:faf: quality BM.

By the way, did you say thanks to the drivers on the bus when you used to get off at the back doors? I never, but I do now. :cool2:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I would imagine everyone in the country now owns a snow shovel, decent winter clothes etc. In fact, I'm surprised that people didn't have them already. After all, the government was supposed to be fully prepared.

[--------]

I would imagine everyone in the country now owns a snow shovel, decent winter clothes etc. In fact, I'm surprised that people didn't have them already. After all, the government was supposed to be fully prepared.


:agree:

I have a Humvee with snow-plough attached on order from the States, and intend to construct a large heated plastic bubble with airlock entrance over Doddie Mansions in time for NEXT winter.

I also intend to dig a tunnel all the way to ER in time for the start of next season, and have systematised my Internet shopping arrangements so that I'll never have to go out in the snaw 'n ice ever again.

I presume that His Magnificence The 20-20 Hindsight Prophet And Mastermind Ian Gray and his Lab/Lib cronies will have done the same... :devil: