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View Full Version : Are Celtic leading the way in Scottish Youth Football ?



Earl of Currie
06-12-2010, 09:15 PM
Intersting story in the Herald. Do you think that thisis the way for Hibs to go ?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/more-scottish-football/with-seven-players-in-scotland-s-under-16-squad-celtic-are-leading-the-way-in-youth-development-revolution-1.1071990

Expand a successful youth system into more of an academy/scholarship opportunity for promising youngsters. Particularly interesting was the number of hours coaching available to the youngsters.

Viva_Palmeiras
06-12-2010, 09:24 PM
This is the same Celtic that iirc cut the ENTIRE under 19 squad including a certain player named Pavlov - folks apparently not salivating at his prospect ;)

Celtic - always trying to rewrite history ;)

Billy Whizz
06-12-2010, 09:28 PM
Intersting story in the Herald. Do you think that thisis the way for Hibs to go ?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/more-scottish-football/with-seven-players-in-scotland-s-under-16-squad-celtic-are-leading-the-way-in-youth-development-revolution-1.1071990

Expand a successful youth system into more of an academy/scholarship opportunity for promising youngsters. Particularly interesting was the number of hours coaching available to the youngsters.


Celtic have always had a lot of Youth players in National squads, but how many of them in recent times make the grade.
Apart from Maloney, how many home grown talent are in their Squad?

Woody1985
06-12-2010, 09:29 PM
Three halves. Think they need to go to the school aswell.

Jack
06-12-2010, 09:32 PM
There has also been allegations on how they attract young players.
.
No particular need for a scouting system.

matty_f
06-12-2010, 11:13 PM
Celtic have always had a lot of Youth players in National squads, but how many of them in recent times make the grade.
Apart from Maloney, how many home grown talent are in their Squad?

There was an article posted on here a while back about the youth set-up at Watford, who had managed (IIRC) to better the 10000 hours coaching that's believed to be the utopian figure for coaching time for a sportsperson to get to the top of their profession.

Their link up is similar to that of Celtc's, and it's interesting to see that this article says that Dundee Utd and Falkirk are implementing similar schemes as well.

IMHO, Hibs should go one better. We have masses of land at East Mains, and I would love to see us build a purpose-built education site, where talented footballers could combine a good education with top class training on-site.

The problem is that it would be expensive to build, and expensive to run, however I think that Hibs could look to offer scholarships to kids with potential to be top players, while looking for other places to be funded.

Over time, the facility should start to pay for itself by increasing the quality of player produced which would improve the team's chances of on-field success, whilst also increasing the revenue by providing a constant stream of top players who would inevitably move on to other clubs for a sizeable fee.

NORTHERNHIBBY
06-12-2010, 11:29 PM
As long as Celtc continue to regularly run out one through eleven with players that they have bought in, their youth set up is window dressing.

Haymaker
07-12-2010, 12:42 AM
Watfords is their own school, they own it and run it themselves - I believe it was a closed down school near by. Highly rated by Ofsted too.

Without doubt this is the way to go, the operational cost however is big but can be justified.

lucky
07-12-2010, 12:54 AM
Rather than slag them off we should be applauding the spin offs. For at last seemed to be taking developing players seriously. There are lots of stories about how they approach players but if they are going to get a first team chance then all other clubs will need to raise their game. The famed Hibs youth production line seems to have stalled for the time being. Combining schooling and coaching is excellent it gives the youngsters discipline and a work ethic. Hopefully Hibs try something similar. For all the kids that don't make at as players will have a decent education to fall back on.

Sandy
07-12-2010, 06:10 AM
Rather than slag them off we should be applauding the spin offs. For at last seemed to be taking developing players seriously. There are lots of stories about how they approach players but if they are going to get a first team chance then all other clubs will need to raise their game. The famed Hibs youth production line seems to have stalled for the time being. Combining schooling and coaching is excellent it gives the youngsters discipline and a work ethic. Hopefully Hibs try something similar. For all the kids that don't make at as players will have a decent education to fall back on.

:agree: It is the only way forward for Scottish football, if we are to progress as a nation in footballing terms then this is the way to go about it.

new malkyhib
07-12-2010, 07:34 AM
Intersting story in the Herald. Do you think that thisis the way for Hibs to go ?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/more-scottish-football/with-seven-players-in-scotland-s-under-16-squad-celtic-are-leading-the-way-in-youth-development-revolution-1.1071990

Expand a successful youth system into more of an academy/scholarship opportunity for promising youngsters. Particularly interesting was the number of hours coaching available to the youngsters.

A certain John Collins advocated this in Scotland, as this is close to the French model which produced Henry, Trezeguet. Thuran et al...Had a lot of good ideas, did John:wink:

Kaiser1962
07-12-2010, 08:35 AM
A certain John Collins advocated this in Scotland, as this is close to the French model which produced Henry, Trezeguet. Thuran et al...Had a lot of good ideas, did John:wink:

Absolutely agree. He was way ahead of the dinosaurs and culture that is prevalent here and has been for years. Sturrock tried to introduce all day training, food and afternoon naps when he was at St.Johnstone so there have been people trying to make serious changes over the years but the whole culture in Scotland seems to be against it.

NAE NOOKIE
07-12-2010, 11:41 AM
We may have an ace in the hole with education and football running side by side in Tom Farmer. Given his philanthropic bent he may be interested in putting some of his own money into such a scheme.

Its also a bit of a worry that of the Scotland under 16 squad to play England recently I cant recall seeing one Hibs player in the line up.

JimBHibees
07-12-2010, 12:23 PM
There was an article posted on here a while back about the youth set-up at Watford, who had managed (IIRC) to better the 10000 hours coaching that's believed to be the utopian figure for coaching time for a sportsperson to get to the top of their profession.

Their link up is similar to that of Celtc's, and it's interesting to see that this article says that Dundee Utd and Falkirk are implementing similar schemes as well.

IMHO, Hibs should go one better. We have masses of land at East Mains, and I would love to see us build a purpose-built education site, where talented footballers could combine a good education with top class training on-site.

The problem is that it would be expensive to build, and expensive to run, however I think that Hibs could look to offer scholarships to kids with potential to be top players, while looking for other places to be funded.

Over time, the facility should start to pay for itself by increasing the quality of player produced which would improve the team's chances of on-field success, whilst also increasing the revenue by providing a constant stream of top players who would inevitably move on to other clubs for a sizeable fee.

Do Hibs not have an opportunity to develop this sort of initiative given that and I think I am right STF has some connection with Queen Margaret University just off the A1 at Newcraighall?

hughio
07-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Friends who have 3 talented footballing sons who are all hibbies have more or less given up on the current mob running Hibs youth developement. Apparently Celtic AND Hearts are streets ahead of us.
The boys are now training there.
:grr:

Bishop Hibee
07-12-2010, 08:51 PM
Very few kids, if any, who'll play in the Scotland under 16 team v England will make it to the first team of an SPL team. From the under 16 squad against Wales in 2006, only Danny Wilson and John Fleck have made any sort of impact.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has any info on squad members other than these 2 who're doing well.

Scotland U16 Squad v Wales, October 2006
Goalkeepers
Grant Adam (Rangers)
James Wood (Manchester City)
Defenders
Scott Durie (Rangers)
Stephen Forbes (Rangers)
David McAuliffe (Motherwell)
Daniel Wilson (Rangers)
Gregg Wylde (Rangers)
Midfield
Alex Cooper (Ross County)
John Fleck (Rangers)
Jamie Ness (Rangers)
Michael O'Halloran (Celtic)
Gordon Smith (Livingston)
Daniel Thomson (Hearts)
Forwards
Archie Campbell (Rangers)
Sean Fitzharris (Celtic)
David Love (Hearts)
Robert McHugh (Motherwell)
Ryan Martin (Motherwell)

I look to the under 19 squad at international level as a better indicator of who will make it.

Disappointing to hear an opinion that Hibs youth set up is not all it could be though.

Part/Time Supporter
07-12-2010, 09:17 PM
Very few kids, if any, who'll play in the Scotland under 16 team v England will make it to the first team of an SPL team. From the under 16 squad against Wales in 2006, only Danny Wilson and John Fleck have made any sort of impact.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has any info on squad members other than these 2 who're doing well.

Scotland U16 Squad v Wales, October 2006
Goalkeepers
Grant Adam (Rangers)
James Wood (Manchester City)
Defenders
Scott Durie (Rangers)
Stephen Forbes (Rangers)
David McAuliffe (Motherwell)
Daniel Wilson (Rangers)
Gregg Wylde (Rangers)
Midfield
Alex Cooper (Ross County)
John Fleck (Rangers)
Jamie Ness (Rangers)
Michael O'Halloran (Celtic)
Gordon Smith (Livingston)
Daniel Thomson (Hearts)
Forwards
Archie Campbell (Rangers)
Sean Fitzharris (Celtic)
David Love (Hearts)
Robert McHugh (Motherwell)
Ryan Martin (Motherwell)

I look to the under 19 squad at international level as a better indicator of who will make it.

Disappointing to hear an opinion that Hibs youth set up is not all it could be though.

Gordon Smith (Livi) is the kid who scored for Hertz in the new year derby last season. He's been scoring a few goals on loan for Stirling this season. McHugh has played a bit for Motherwell, but hasn't made much of an impact. Wylde and Ness have been getting the odd game for Rangers this season.

A lot of players tend to get picked from Rantic youth teams and basically get lost in their systems due to lack of opportunity. Some probably shouldn't have been picked for national team in the first place (ie they're overrated because they just happen to play alongside some of the better kids).

PaulSmith
07-12-2010, 10:16 PM
Friends who have 3 talented footballing sons who are all hibbies have more or less given up on the current mob running Hibs youth developement. Apparently Celtic AND Hearts are streets ahead of us.
The boys are now training there.
:grr:

'the Mob' at Hibs? and the reason why you may see hearts and Celtic as being miles ahead of us is that they try to always act the big shots through their PR. Fact is that Hibs never talk about their pro development anywhere and never pay to sign players from other pro initiative clubs. Hibs beat hearts at every level at tail end of last season bar 12's and hearts almost done clean sweep a few weeks ago.
Hibs recently signed a really exciting prospect despite an offer from hearts as well. Same with a recent Celtic target.
Certainly no where near what you have posted and to add to what I have already posted we've actually increased our scouting network across the central belt.

Bishop Hibee
07-12-2010, 11:04 PM
Gordon Smith (Livi) is the kid who scored for Hertz in the new year derby last season. He's been scoring a few goals on loan for Stirling this season. McHugh has played a bit for Motherwell, but hasn't made much of an impact. Wylde and Ness have been getting the odd game for Rangers this season.

A lot of players tend to get picked from Rantic youth teams and basically get lost in their systems due to lack of opportunity. Some probably shouldn't have been picked for national team in the first place (ie they're overrated because they just happen to play alongside some of the better kids).

Is there a Hertz striker who hasn't scored against us at some time :boo hoo: (alright, Crabbe and Eskilson :greengrin).

Agree with the last para which is why I won't pay too much attention to the U16s being mostly on Celtc's books.

Dunbar Hibee
07-12-2010, 11:47 PM
Robert McHugh also featured for Motherwell a few times. Have heard he will be a star :agree:

Haymaker
08-12-2010, 02:31 AM
'the Mob' at Hibs? and the reason why you may see hearts and Celtic as being miles ahead of us is that they try to always act the big shots through their PR. Fact is that Hibs never talk about their pro development anywhere and never pay to sign players from other pro initiative clubs. Hibs beat hearts at every level at tail end of last season bar 12's and hearts almost done clean sweep a few weeks ago.
Hibs recently signed a really exciting prospect despite an offer from hearts as well. Same with a recent Celtic target.
Certainly no where near what you have posted and to add to what I have already posted we've actually increased our scouting network across the central belt.


:agree:

aberhibsfc
08-12-2010, 09:55 AM
My experience is that they are more intent on ensnaring as many decent young players as possible. It reminds me of the 'S' form days. Cast the net wide enough and you'll capture some of the cream. Unfortunately for many youngsters blinded by the name will be left on the sidelines and before they realise the dream isn't going to become a reality they may have missed the boat for other opportunities, not to mention that they will be restricted from partcipating in any non-club related football activity eg school teams etc.

I am sure this is a problem encountered by youngsters at various clubs but I feel other clubs are more realistic whereas Celtic want the masses. Don't forget the frequent visits by ROI scouts trying to brainwash youngsters into comitting to ROI. I had a friend whose son was asked if he would be interested in committing to ROI, my friends son's response was I am Scottish and have no ROI relatives. The scout hit him with 'Well, you've got an Irish name so I'm sure it won't be a problem'. My friends son said if he was ever lucky enough to get to that level there's only one country he could play for. My friends told me that his son is not the only one that's been tapped, they are frequently trying to encourage our youngsters away from Scotland.

Perspective
08-12-2010, 10:34 AM
'the Mob' at Hibs? and the reason why you may see hearts and Celtic as being miles ahead of us is that they try to always act the big shots through their PR. Fact is that Hibs never talk about their pro development anywhere and never pay to sign players from other pro initiative clubs. Hibs beat hearts at every level at tail end of last season bar 12's and hearts almost done clean sweep a few weeks ago.
Hibs recently signed a really exciting prospect despite an offer from hearts as well. Same with a recent Celtic target.
Certainly no where near what you have posted and to add to what I have already posted we've actually increased our scouting network across the central belt.

That's a crucial point.

It may be admirable but it makes it 10 times harder for Hibs to produce good young players. It means your scouting and recruitment from school age has to be top notch if you're operating in a vastly reduced pool of players.

I'd love to see youth development become the focus at Hibs. That means looking at what Celtic/Falkirk/Dundee Utd are doing with the school tie-ins and focusing on bulking up the scouting network to ensure that we can justify our claims of having a great youth system.

If we're making a big operating loss every year we simply have to keep churning out players that can be sold on, that hopefully help us win trophies along the way. If that means spending money on the right young players, for the right positions at the right time I don't see it as a bad thing.

CropleyisGod
08-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Youth football at representative level is even more dominated by greater weedgieland than senior football. I've been to 'trials' held AFTER the squad has been picked. :-))

matty_f
08-12-2010, 09:49 PM
That's a crucial point.

It may be admirable but it makes it 10 times harder for Hibs to produce good young players. It means your scouting and recruitment from school age has to be top notch if you're operating in a vastly reduced pool of players.

I'd love to see youth development become the focus at Hibs. That means looking at what Celtic/Falkirk/Dundee Utd are doing with the school tie-ins and focusing on bulking up the scouting network to ensure that we can justify our claims of having a great youth system.

If we're making a big operating loss every year we simply have to keep churning out players that can be sold on, that hopefully help us win trophies along the way. If that means spending money on the right young players, for the right positions at the right time I don't see it as a bad thing.

I don't think we should underestimate the good work (and the volume of that work) that goes into the Youth side of things at Hibs. We don't shout it from the roof tops but the set-up is fantastic.

I agree that the policy to not pay for other club's youth set up puts huge pressure on the scouts at Hibs to be able to identify and attract the best youngsters before other clubs find them, and it's maybe something that we need to be reviewing in order that we're able to profit from youth players (both on the field in a more successful team, but also from the inevitable sell-on value).

Perspective
09-12-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't think we should underestimate the good work (and the volume of that work) that goes into the Youth side of things at Hibs. We don't shout it from the roof tops but the set-up is fantastic.

Absolutely Matty, I don't dispute that the youth staff do a power of good work.

If anything I'd just like to see them get a bit more support from above. I think their hands are tied behind their backs to an extent by not being allowed to bring players in from a wider pool, yet they've still managed to churn out players consistently that the board have used to turn an operating loss into a profit.

I don't think that can last forever and I'm a bit concerned the well has run dry, though obviously Callum Booth has potential (outwith Hanlon and Wotherspoon).

I'd like to see us invest real time and money into widening the scouting network and spending the right amount of money on educated risks - i.e. signing a young player on the way up that can be sold on for big money. Not talking about the likes of Ryan Flynn because I think by this point it's almost too late - they have to be identified earlier.

I think it's a disgrace that so much of our resources have been frittered away on first-team players that have cost so much and delivered little - the number in recent years that have come and gone within a short period is staggering. There should be a Director of Football type to oversee these things so we aren't so short-term in our thinking. I annoys me that the squad is so imbalanced that we don't have players for each position ready to slot in and do a job when there are injuries at senior level (Booth and Byrne apart as they're out on loan).

Couple of great articles by SwissRamble on the set-ups at Lyon and Porto. Two big clubs with the right sort of structure. Not saying we can hope to match them given their financial clout, but the ideology should be the same.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2010/10/trade-secrets-behind-lyons-rise.html
http://swissramble.blogspot.com/

Woody1985
09-12-2010, 05:06 PM
I've just read that blog on Lyon. Well worth a read. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the change in model and how the do as a club in the next few years without a great deal to sell.

It was interesting that their academy cost less than ours.