Wikileaks

[BroxburnHibee]

On the eve of a major release of embarassing documents for the US, they start to have problems.

Who on Earth might be responsible :hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858637

[Betty Boop]

On the eve of a major release of embarassing documents for the US, they start to have problems.

Who on Earth might be responsible :hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858637

They are up and running here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/us-embassy-cables-the-documents

[Minder]

Starting to get tasty snippets, Saudis and others want Iran hit and inappropriate behaviour by a member of the British Royal Family. No news on Riordan yet though !

[Woody1985]

So are these leaks more or less likely to cause more war and suffering or is the original aim just to take pot shots at America?

Are other countries subject to the same scrutiny?

Why don't they release all files at the same time? I appreciate there are probably too many to work through in one go but its starting to feel a bit like a soap opera waiting for the next installments.

[Betty Boop]

Hilary Clinton believes that Saudi Arabia, is the largest source of funding for terror groups. The latest leaks show that any concerns, remain behind closed doors when it comes to oil rich states. :rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

[steakbake]

The sweet smell of sunlight...

[Pretty Boy]

Can i dare to suggest that perhaps if governments didn't habitually lie to and mislead us there would be no need for a site such as wikileaks.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Can i dare to suggest that perhaps if governments didn't habitually lie to and mislead us there would be no need for a site such as wikileaks.

What is emerging from Wikileaks, for me, is that governments are nothing more than an irritation to the people who really run the world. It seems to me that most decisions are made away from the process of democracy.

[CropleyWasGod]

What is emerging from Wikileaks, for me, is that governments are nothing more than an irritation to the people who really run the world. It seems to me that most decisions are made away from the process of democracy.

I'm surprised that you thought otherwise, or are you just stirring? :wink:

The world has always been run by the powerful. At various times in history, the Church, the armies, the multi-nationals, the intelligence agencies.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm surprised that you thought otherwise, or are you just stirring? :wink:

The world has always been run by the powerful. At various times in history, the Church, the armies, the multi-nationals, the intelligence agencies.

It kind of ties in with the father in "So I Married an Axe Murderer":


Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?

Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"

Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?

Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!

[Woody1985]

There idiots have posted a document that details sites across the world that are seen as critical to us security.

They've just provided a huge list of terrorist targets and put a lot of people at risk.

WHat good can this type of info do?

[bighairyfaeleith]

There idiots have posted a document that details sites across the world that are seen as critical to us security.

They've just provided a huge list of terrorist targets and put a lot of people at risk.

WHat good can this type of info do?

Perhas if the US hadn't got the guys rape charges re-investigated, his bank accounts freezed, and openly accused him of being a terrorist and wishing him murdered then perhaps, just perhaps, they could have been persuaded to not put it all on the net:dunno:

Not trying to defend wikileaks here as I think they are playing a dangerous game, however I'm not sure the american governments way of handling his is at all wise and I reckon they will end up looking very very stupid, more so than normal in fact. The harder they hammer wikileaks the more likely it is that more sites will start doing the same thing.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Can i dare to suggest that perhaps if governments didn't habitually lie to and mislead us there would be no need for a site such as wikileaks.

I agree, some people will clain governments are just protecting the masses, but frankly I find that just insulting. Politicians are just a bunch of lying wee toalies and I hope lots are left very red faced after this.

[hibsbollah]

The latest leaks, particularly on Russia-US relations,is massively dangerous and can't be justified by any spurious claims to be in the public interest. Power without responsibility.

[hibsbollah]

He's just been arrested in London.

[Betty Boop]

He's just been arrested in London.

By appointment.

[Wembley67]

Wonder what the odds on him vanishing are.

[RyeSloan]

The latest leaks, particularly on Russia-US relations,is massively dangerous and can't be justified by any spurious claims to be in the public interest. Power without responsibility.

I agree with this.

Freedom of speech and the press are important rights to protect but with those rights come responsibility and I think WikiLeaks have simply absolved themselves of these responsibilities.

Must say though that it is absolutely amazing the size of security hole that the US has had to allow all of this info out of the door...I know it's easy to say in the world of usb drives and the like but the sheer scale of these leaks and the level of communication that they refer to must lead to a few heads rolling in the US security services...

[khib70]

The latest leaks, particularly on Russia-US relations,is massively dangerous and can't be justified by any spurious claims to be in the public interest. Power without responsibility.


I agree with this.

Freedom of speech and the press are important rights to protect but with those rights come responsibility and I think WikiLeaks have simply absolved themselves of these responsibilities.

Must say though that it is absolutely amazing the size of security hole that the US has had to allow all of this info out of the door...I know it's easy to say in the world of usb drives and the like but the sheer scale of these leaks and the level of communication that they refer to must lead to a few heads rolling in the US security services...

:agree: Spot on. Indiscriminately firing huge wads of decontextualised info into the public domain is irresponsible and dangerous, not least to, ironically, freedom of speech.

Admittedly much of this supposedly shocking material is statements of the bleeding obvious - Iran doesn't like Israel, Berlusconi likes his Nat King, and so on. But as Hibsbollah says, some of it could be seriously destabilising. Mr Assange clearly sees himself as some kind of crusader for freedom and truth. Clearly his ego is as voluminous as his website.

As to his arrest. He denies the charges, so we'll see. The conspiracy theorists will be loving it

[BEEJ]

There idiots have posted a document that details sites across the world that are seen as critical to us security.

They've just provided a huge list of terrorist targets and put a lot of people at risk.

WHat good can this type of info do?
All in the 'public interest', apparently, that everyone should be told everything about every last situation. Dreadfully important that we are all fully advised, not only about who said what about whom in political / diplomatic circles but where the most strategically significant points on the globe are situated. :rolleyes:

Let's ignore the feedstock now being supplied to anyone and everyone who considers themself a terrorist with an axe to grind. We've also now had wonderfully informative leaks which have served to bring insult and hurt to the families of UK servicemen who have been sacrificed in Afghanistan. Way to go -Wikileaks!! You and the journalists spreading this about must be so proud.


The latest leaks, particularly on Russia-US relations,is massively dangerous and can't be justified by any spurious claims to be in the public interest. Power without responsibility.
:top marks

All this is doing is pandering to society's nauseating and apparently insatiable appetite for gossip and intrigue.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its a tough one this coz there is a line to be drawn between 'the public interest' and information which can cause conflict or be of help to terrorists.

Some of the information is hardly surprising. Everybody knows that in reality what governments say in public is rarely what they think in private. Thats why they call it diplomacy.

Also its hardly a stretch to think that a member of the royal family can be an arrogant tool.

But if the guy who runs Wikileaks thought he could release all of this stuff without having to spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder he must be dafter than a really big brush which is professor of daft brushness at daft brush university.

The Israelis got a leader of Hamas I think it was by switching his mobile phone in a restaurant. The next time he answered a call it blew his head off.

Just saying like :bitchy:

[Woody1985]

By appointment.

At the request of Swedish authorities.

[Lofarl]

The world needs a wilileaks like website imo. Of fair enough some of the material being released is either pointless or potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. But most of it is stating the bleeding obvious.

America likes oil pipelines, shocking.

[Woody1985]

The world needs a wilileaks like website imo. Of fair enough some of the material being released is either pointless or potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. But most of it is stating the bleeding obvious.

America likes oil pipelines, shocking.

As you say, most of it is either pointless/stating the obvious or dangerous so why are they needed?

If they were selective on exposing things that impacted the man on the street or accidents/attrocities then I'd be all for it but stuff that puts normal men and women in the street in danger is a joke.

I'm pretty sure if they had anything really damning it would have been exposed by now. There seems to be lots of little snippets with headline grabbing titles e.g. Guy from Burma interested in buying Man United. And the story is the guy wanted to buy united but decided not to because for fear of a backlash in his country. Is that really a high priority point? I think not.

The guy deserves what's coming to him IMO.

It's verging on the 'Hello' type magazines. 'Oooooooh, someone said Gaddaffi's son is a bit of a cock'. Who cares.

[ancienthibby]

As you say, most of it is either pointless/stating the obvious or dangerous so why are they needed?

If they were selective on exposing things that impacted the man on the street or accidents/attrocities then I'd be all for it but stuff that puts normal men and women in the street in danger is a joke.

I'm pretty sure if they had anything really damning it would have been exposed by now. There seems to be lots of little snippets with headline grabbing titles e.g. Guy from Burma interested in buying Man United. And the story is the guy wanted to buy united but decided not to because for fear of a backlash in his country. Is that really a high priority point? I think not.

The guy deserves what's coming to him IMO.

It's verging on the 'Hello' type magazines. 'Oooooooh, someone said Gaddaffi's son is a bit of a cock'. Who cares.


Who cares??

Have a strong word with yourself son!

The earlier 'leaks' might have fitted your 'Hello' caricature, but the latest releases of actual sites where people work is totally out of order and the site deserves to be shut down.

Get a grip!:grr::grr::grr:

[Lofarl]

I disagree, while these current set of leaks may well be the type to grace a hello magazine. Some of the stuff the have released in the past has been of importance. I suppose the question is what is worth leaking and whats not.

But imagine if you will for a sec that wikileaks obtained solid proof of extraterrestrial life or a suppressed cure for cancer/aids, or a car that runs on water. Would you want info like that to be supressed?

[Removed]

Just been on Sky News that Santa isn't happy. Wikileaks have published his "naughty and nice" list.

[Woody1985]

[/B]

Who cares??

Have a strong word with yourself son!

The earlier 'leaks' might have fitted your 'Hello' caricature, but the latest releases of actual sites where people work is totally out of order and the site deserves to be shut down.

Get a grip!:grr::grr::grr:

Did you even read any of my other posts on this thread? Guess not.

[Woody1985]

I disagree, while these current set of leaks may well be the type to grace a hello magazine. Some of the stuff the have released in the past has been of importance. I suppose the question is what is worth leaking and whats not.

But imagine if you will for a sec that wikileaks obtained solid proof of extraterrestrial life or a suppressed cure for cancer/aids, or a car that runs on water. Would you want info like that to be supressed?

I thinkk what you've detailed are things that would impact the man on the street. Also mentioned in one of my posts...

[Woody1985]

I also mentioned that I think that if there was anything truly on the scale affecting us all it would have been released by now.

250,000 documents and the most damning thing they've come up with is well, erm, I can't really think of anything mind blowing.

[ancienthibby]

I also mentioned that I think that if there was anything truly on the scale affecting us all it would have been released by now.

250,000 documents and the most damning thing they've come up with is well, erm, I can't really think of anything mind blowing.

The only thing that's mind blowing is your abject lack of concern for the lives of totally innocent people's lives which have been totally jeopardised by this current level of leaks!!

Why on earth would you take this position??:grr::grr:

[Woody1985]

The only thing that's mind blowing is your abject lack of concern for the lives of totally innocent people's lives which have been totally jeopardised by this current level of leaks!!

Why on earth would you take this position??:grr::grr:
You are a funny guy. I've already said that they should never have been released. You'd know that if you read the thread.

I meant mind blowing in terms of public interest. The general public aren't interested in the sites.

Before you reply go and read the thread.

[ancienthibby]

You are a funny guy. I've already said that they should never have been released. You'd know that if you read the thread.

I meant mind blowing in terms of public interest. The general public aren't interested in the sites.

Before you reply go and read the thread.

Nah.

Like Nish you are as good only as your last point!:greengrin

[Woody1985]

Well I'll summarise. I agree with you. That's why your arguement was a little silly.:greengrin

[ancienthibby]

Well I'll summarise. I agree with you. That's why your arguement was a little silly.:greengrin
:wink:

[Pretty Boy]

I also mentioned that I think that if there was anything truly on the scale affecting us all it would have been released by now.

250,000 documents and the most damning thing they've come up with is well, erm, I can't really think of anything mind blowing.

You don't find the revelation that several Arab governments would support a US led attack on Iran important or newsworthy?

How many newspapers, TV news station etc were reporting this? How open were the governments involved about telling the people this?

[Betty Boop]

The latest leaks, particularly on Russia-US relations,is massively dangerous and can't be justified by any spurious claims to be in the public interest. Power without responsibility.

Did you not say a while back that you were in favour of wikileaks ? I can't remember the exact wording of your post, but it concerned the footage of the two Reuters journalists and Iraqi children being fired on from an apache helicopter. Something about a change from anodyne news reports from embedded journalists.

[Leicester Fan]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but I wonder if some of these leaks are really hurting America. N.Korea now know that China won't back it up against the west if it came to war. Pressure has been put on Saudi Arabia about terrorist funding.Russia's been outed as a mafia state.And then there are a few embarrassing stories against for America just authenticity's sake.

Not saying there's any truth in that just thinking aloud.

[The Green Goblin]

I can see the validity of some of the arguments on both sides here, and to be honest, I`m not absolutely sure where i stand on it yet. That`s just an honest admission on my part.

However, one thing I do find distasteful is the assertion from the U.S military that some of the information "will put lives at risk". Their drones, missiles and bombs are killing civilians in large numbers every day in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Perhaps these particular lives - these men, women and children whose deaths would cause outrage were they to happen in our own back yard- just don`t matter.

It seems that one can put certain lives at risk or even destroy them, but it depends entirely on whose lives those are and whether they are deemed to have any worth or not by those with their finger on the trigger.

GG

[Woody1985]

You don't find the revelation that several Arab governments would support a US led attack on Iran important or newsworthy?

How many newspapers, TV news station etc were reporting this? How open were the governments involved about telling the people this?

I would say that's border line.

Do we need to know that people in the middle east would support an attack. Is it not newsworthy that these nations feel threatened so much that they'd want someone to attack? Two sides to every coin.

[Betty Boop]

Rape or trumped up charges ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/rape-claims-julian-assange

[Sylar]

Rape or trumped up charges ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/rape-claims-julian-assange

Wow - 2 women accuse a guy of raping them, and because his website suits the political agenda of some, these claims are automatically dismissed as a political move - astonishing.

He might be guilty, he might not, but so long as 2 people have accused him of such a crime, he has to be treated like any other accused and face trial by jury.

I've no opinion on the guy personally - his website is a complete disgrace and some of it's published material cross the line of decency and national security. If any action against a United States Armed Forces field office, base or security centre comes as a result of the most recent publication, I hope the ******* is hunted down and treated like a global terrorist :agree:

[lyonhibs]

Wow - 2 women accuse a guy of raping them, and because his website suits the political agenda of some, these claims are automatically dismissed as a political move - astonishing.

He might be guilty, he might not, but so long as 2 people have accused him of such a crime, he has to be treated like any other accused and face trial by jury.

I've no opinion on the guy personally - his website is a complete disgrace and some of it's published material cross the line of decency and national security. If any action against a United States Armed Forces field office, base or security centre comes as a result of the most recent publication, I hope the ******* is hunted down and treated like a global terrorist :agree:

:agree::agree:

Why on earth are the two alternatives presented by BB the absolute polar opposites of the spectrum. In the real world, there are shades of grey everywhere.

[Betty Boop]

Wow - 2 women accuse a guy of raping them, and because his website suits the political agenda of some, these claims are automatically dismissed as a political move - astonishing.

He might be guilty, he might not, but so long as 2 people have accused him of such a crime, he has to be treated like any other accused and face trial by jury.

I've no opinion on the guy personally - his website is a complete disgrace and some of it's published material cross the line of decency and national security. If any action against a United States Armed Forces field office, base or security centre comes as a result of the most recent publication, I hope the ******* is hunted down and treated like a global terrorist :agree:

Unfortunately Sweden doesn't have a jury system. In the words of George Orwell " During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."


:
:

[Bishop Hibee]

In the words of George Orwell " During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."


:
:
:top marks Sad that this guy and his organisation have had to do a job that the press should do instead of leading on what Kate Middleton is wearing and who'll win Xfactor.

Surely the exposure of the truth about the Uk relationship with middle eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia and Libya should be a wake-up call for everyone.

[AgentDaleCooper]

as someone i know pointed out, which is worse? that Asange could have been daft enough to expose himself to international notoriety whilst also being a fugitive rapist, or that the Man just manufactured a spurious charge against him?

given the slightly cobbled together appearance of the charge, one of them is quite a massive idiot.

[AgentDaleCooper]

FWIW, i think a lot of the stuff wikileaks has leaked is very telling and newsworthy, and if it weren't for the fact that most of western society is cynical to the point of apathy towards their governments, there'd be a much bigger outcry.

[BEEJ]

You don't find the revelation that several Arab governments would support a US led attack on Iran important or newsworthy?

How many newspapers, TV news station etc were reporting this? How open were the governments involved about telling the people this?
Does this 'revelation' make an attack on Iran any more or less likely to happen than it was before you knew it? How does it change matters now that the world's public have been made aware of these views expressed 'confidentially' in Arab diplomatic circles.

Now that you personally know it, how does it change your life? Are you going to march on Westminster with a placard? If you are not going to do anything in response to this information, did you really need to know it other than to satisfy idle curiosity?

Why should governments tell their electorates every last opinion expressed by diplomats of one country about another country? Does the general public need to know absolutely everything about everything going on in the world? Or are we not all suffering from information overload already?

If you were in the cabinet, what (if any) types of information would you withhold from the general public for the common good? Not for cynical and twisted purposes based on fundamental dishonesty and cheating; but because it would not be in the best interests of the 'man in the street' to know that information?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Wow - 2 women accuse a guy of raping them, and because his website suits the political agenda of some, these claims are automatically dismissed as a political move - astonishing.

He might be guilty, he might not, but so long as 2 people have accused him of such a crime, he has to be treated like any other accused and face trial by jury.

I've no opinion on the guy personally - his website is a complete disgrace and some of it's published material cross the line of decency and national security. If any action against a United States Armed Forces field office, base or security centre comes as a result of the most recent publication, I hope the ******* is hunted down and treated like a global terrorist :agree:

From my understanding of it though, the swedish authorities had decided to drop the case, then suddenly after everything is released last week a different prosecutor in a different part of sweden from were the charges originated decides to take the case up. Might be coincidental but it wouldn't be unheard of for the americans to pull a stunt like this would it?

No idea if he is guilty or not and if he is then he should face punishment but it just doesn't add up to me.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Does this 'revelation' make an attack on Iran any more or less likely to happen than it was before you knew it? How does it change matters now that the world's public have been made aware of these views expressed 'confidentially' in Arab diplomatic circles.

Now that you personally know it, how does it change your life? Are you going to march on Westminster with a placard? If you are not going to do anything in response to this information, did you really need to know it other than to satisfy idle curiosity?

Why should governments tell their electorates every last opinion expressed by diplomats of one country about another country? Does the general public need to know absolutely everything about everything going on in the world? Or are we not all suffering from information overload already?

If you were in the cabinet, what (if any) types of information would you withhold from the general public for the common good? Not for cynical and twisted purposes based on fundamental dishonesty and cheating; but because it would not be in the best interests of the 'man in the street' to know that information?

Perhaps however if the people in power become concerned that what they do could be made public then they will behave more responsibly?

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps however if the people in power become concerned that what they do could be made public then they will behave more responsibly?

More likely that they'll just do their communicating in smoke-filled rooms rather than through the ether.

[Pretty Boy]

Does this 'revelation' make an attack on Iran any more or less likely to happen than it was before you knew it? How does it change matters now that the world's public have been made aware of these views expressed 'confidentially' in Arab diplomatic circles.

Now that you personally know it, how does it change your life? Are you going to march on Westminster with a placard? If you are not going to do anything in response to this information, did you really need to know it other than to satisfy idle curiosity?

Why should governments tell their electorates every last opinion expressed by diplomats of one country about another country? Does the general public need to know absolutely everything about everything going on in the world? Or are we not all suffering from information overload already?

If you were in the cabinet, what (if any) types of information would you withhold from the general public for the common good? Not for cynical and twisted purposes based on fundamental dishonesty and cheating; but because it would not be in the best interests of the 'man in the street' to know that information?

I don't NEED to know the information. However having worked in the Middle East inlcuding Iran in the past and having many friends there i have an interest in what is going on in the region. The western media would quite happily paint all the 'Muslim countries' in the area as a happy little club who back each other unconditionally. How many people genuinely know about the divisions, both sectarian and otherwise, that fragment the region?

A lot of what has come out of Wikileaks has been idle chit chat, although if it's such useless information why people have a problem with it being leaked i'm not sure? Berlusconi being fond of his Nat King and Prince Andrew being rude are hardly surprising. On the other hand the revelations about the severe nature of internal corruption in Russia, the Chinese stance on North Korea and the failures in US-Russo relations are potentially huge stories that should be, to some extent, available to the public who have an interest in such stories.

Are we 'victims' of information overload? Quite the opposite i would suggest. There are huge ammounts of information the British Government is desperate to keep from us. The case of Dr David Kelly may be worth remembering here, regardless of who pulled the trigger, the government were responsible for the death of a man who tried to tell us the truth about an illegal war.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Are we 'victims' of information overload? Quite the opposite i would suggest. There are huge ammounts of information the British Government is desperate to keep from us. The case of Dr David Kelly may be worth remembering here, regardless of who pulled the trigger, the government were responsible for the death of a man who tried to tell us the truth about an illegal war.

Yeh. The Dr Kelly thing stank to high heaven and I think a lot of folk out there remain to be convinced that the ' security sevices ' didnt have a hand in his death.

We belong to a country which forced the population of the island of Diego Garcia to leave the island between 1966 and 1971 to enable the U.S. to build an air base there.

The islanders took the government to the high court and the house of lords to stop the forced relocations and won both times.

The government of the time ( a labour one ) made use of a little known law which meant that all they had to do was get the queen to sign a document which made the decisions of the two highest courts in England null and void and they would get their way.

In the years following many of the older islanders died of what can only be described as 'broken hearts, its all documented.

This is of course also a poke in the eye to all of the folks out there who think that the queen is just a figurehead. Far from it folks. Scratch the surface of this country and you will see that we are not as far from a feudal system as they would have you beleive. In fact that sounds like an idea for a new thread on here.

[khib70]

Wow - 2 women accuse a guy of raping them, and because his website suits the political agenda of some, these claims are automatically dismissed as a political move - astonishing.

He might be guilty, he might not, but so long as 2 people have accused him of such a crime, he has to be treated like any other accused and face trial by jury.

I've no opinion on the guy personally - his website is a complete disgrace and some of it's published material cross the line of decency and national security. If any action against a United States Armed Forces field office, base or security centre comes as a result of the most recent publication, I hope the ******* is hunted down and treated like a global terrorist :agree:

:agree:Totally agree. If this guy had been some right wing blogger, the usual suspects would be rubbing their hands in glee at his arrest.

And meanwhile, the current Nobel Peace laureate is languishing in jail in China for daring to criticise the resident dictatorship, and China's fellow totalitarians in Cuba, Pakistan, Venezuela etc are boycotting the ceremony. The UN have bottled it again. No thread about that I see :rolleyes:

[NAE NOOKIE]

:agree:Totally agree. If this guy had been some right wing blogger, the usual suspects would be rubbing their hands in glee at his arrest.

And meanwhile, the current Nobel Peace laureate is languishing in jail in China for daring to criticise the resident dictatorship, and China's fellow totalitarians in Cuba, Pakistan, Venezuela etc are boycotting the ceremony. The UN have bottled it again. No thread about that I see :rolleyes:

Its a sad fact of life that if you know that someone can kick your arse in a fight and also financially you have to be carefull what you say to them.

[Betty Boop]

Hacktivists have brought down the Mastercard website, apparently as payback for them withdrawing services to Wikileaks. Amazon and Paypal are apparently next on their list, along with the Swedish prosecutors office.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539

[Lofarl]

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd12072010.html

A very good article about Wikileaks.

[khib70]

Hacktivists have brought down the Mastercard website, apparently as payback for them withdrawing services to Wikileaks. Amazon and Paypal are apparently next on their list, along with the Swedish prosecutors office.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539
....and this is good because ?:dunno:

So people won't be able to buy stuff because of some demented geeks. The tide of revolution rolls ever on:rolleyes:

[Gatecrasher]

....and this is good because ?:dunno:

So people won't be able to buy stuff because of some demented geeks. The tide of revolution rolls ever on:rolleyes:
:tee hee:

[khib70]

Its a sad fact of life that if you know that someone can kick your arse in a fight and also financially you have to be carefull what you say to them.
It is indeed. The majority of the 19 (out of 63) countries boycotting the Nobel ceremony are getting big financial aid from China, or are suppliers to it. In the case of Venezuela, run by leftist looney Chavez, it's specifically about oil exports. I hope the left wing luvvies like Pilger and Loach backing Assange see the irony in that.

In other cases (Russia, Egypt, Tunisia) it's because they want to divert attention from their own human rights records. I don't know why they bother. No one, especially on the left, seems to have noticed.

[Woody1985]

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd12072010.html

A very good article about Wikileaks.

What did you think was good about it?

They've tried to justify the latest leaks by what I would call public interest information in the past. The two are unrelated and anything good they've done in the past does not automatically make them right this time.

They've tried to divert attention to other news publications despite them being the source of the info. Stupid arguement. The press are just printing the info because it's current and might make them some money with the mostly ridiculous headlines.

As for Sarah palin, yes, a woman who is not in power and doesn't control American security, is calling for his head because it appeals to her right wing voters.

It seems biased to me and just summarises what's already been in the press.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Hacktivists have brought down the Mastercard website, apparently as payback for them withdrawing services to Wikileaks. Amazon and Paypal are apparently next on their list, along with the Swedish prosecutors office.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539

I suppose they look on that as a good way to fight back and in view of that can claim justification for such an action.

Which if just as well, coz if like me you have ever had your computer totally screwed by a virus put there by some faceless geek who did it just coz he could, you would probably agree that amputation of both hands in the public square in front of a baying crowd is too lenient a punishment. :grr:

[(((Fergus)))]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but I wonder if some of these leaks are really hurting America. N.Korea now know that China won't back it up against the west if it came to war. Pressure has been put on Saudi Arabia about terrorist funding.Russia's been outed as a mafia state.And then there are a few embarrassing stories against for America just authenticity's sake.

Not saying there's any truth in that just thinking aloud.

Either that or America is not the real baddy.

Of course it has its (massive) faults but, seriously, where would you prefer to live:


North Korea
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Russia
United States of America

What do the illegal immigrants say? Where are they going these days?

[BEEJ]

I don't NEED to know the information. However having worked in the Middle East inlcuding Iran in the past and having many friends there i have an interest in what is going on in the region. The western media would quite happily paint all the 'Muslim countries' in the area as a happy little club who back each other unconditionally. How many people genuinely know about the divisions, both sectarian and otherwise, that fragment the region?
OK. So on the positive side then we have folks like yourself who are interested in the politics of the region and therefore this news satisfies your curiosity. No more than that. You're not planning to change your life-style or act specifically as a result of this new information.

On the negative side, what might be the outcome for relationships between Iran and the Saudis? Imagine for a moment if this revelation inflamed some form of conflict between the two countries, resulting in the deaths of innocent Iranian and Saudi citizens. For all we know, this could be one potential outcome.

Does your increased knowledge of the geo-politics of the region make that sacrifice worthwhile?


On the other hand the revelations about the severe nature of internal corruption in Russia, the Chinese stance on North Korea and the failures in US-Russo relations are potentially huge stories that should be, to some extent, available to the public who have an interest in such stories.
Why? Why is the increase of public knowledge on its own a justification for leaks of this nature? On its own it's not; not unless the public are going to act upon this information in some way, and in the instances you list there I can't see that they will.

The cases of MPs expenses last year (and to some extent the case of Dr David Kelly that you cite) are different as in those instances the public has the ability to act and to take up the issue with the government. The MPs expenses campaign was effective and delivered change because UK citizens were within a year of going to the polls. The only people harmed from the revelations were the MPs who largely deserved what they got.

By contrast some of the stuff on Wikileaks is potentially very dangerous in realms far beyond those that you, I or even Assange can influence, never mind control. Meantime the benefit of so-called 'public interest' is minimal at best.

[hibsbollah]

Did you not say a while back that you were in favour of wikileaks ? I can't remember the exact wording of your post, but it concerned the footage of the two Reuters journalists and Iraqi children being fired on from an apache helicopter. Something about a change from anodyne news reports from embedded journalists.

Theres a fairly clear difference. The incident in the summer involved the killing of un-armed civilians by US marines, and the subsequent attempt by the US military to cover it up. The public interest in releasing that is incontrovertable.

The current leaks are a completely different set of circumstances, involving the release of private conversations between diplomats on state security.

Journalists normally discriminate between what is in the public interest to know and what isnt. Like it or not, in the world of international relations, successful dilpomacy is the only thing that separates the world from more or less constant global conflict. Leaking en masse the kind of highly sensitive information that has appeared in the last couple of days makes doing that important job more difficult. Almost as importantly, it shows Assange doesnt have the ability to discriminate between what is public interest and what isnt. Everything, to him, is public property and the private sphere doesnt exist.

As to the response of the Left, I think John Pilger is a fairly dense polemicist who has an inflated sense of his own importance and usually ends up doing the cause of the Left a disservice ('This is an innocent man' Pilger announced grandiously last night...OK, then John, if you have some inside info on the rape allegations you'd better get in the dock as a defence witness). I'm surprised at Ken Loach though, I thought he had a bit more sense than to spring to Assange's defence without clearly knowing any more than anybody else about the charges.

[Leicester Fan]

Either that or America is not the real baddy.

Of course it has its (massive) faults but, seriously, where would you prefer to live:


North Korea
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Russia
United States of America

What do the illegal immigrants say? Where are they going these days?

I'm no left wing yankee hater, I'm quite pro America. I was just saying that some of these leaks may serve a purpose. Perhaps some of these documents were planted in Wikileaks lap.

As I said it was just a theory. All countries play dirty tricks, it's nothing to be ashamed of .

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm no left wing yankee hater, I'm quite pro America. I was just saying that some of these leaks may serve a purpose. Perhaps some of these documents were planted in Wikileaks lap.

As I said it was just a theory. All countries play dirty tricks, it's nothing to be ashamed of .

It's significant that the majority of the leaks are US diplomats' observations on others, rather than being directly attributable to American policy.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Theres a fairly clear difference. The incident in the summer involved the killing of un-armed civilians by US marines, and the subsequent attempt by the US military to cover it up. The public interest in releasing that is incontrovertable.

The current leaks are a completely different set of circumstances, involving the release of private conversations between diplomats on state security.

Journalists normally discriminate between what is in the public interest to know and what isnt. Like it or not, in the world of international relations, successful dilpomacy is the only thing that separates the world from more or less constant global conflict. Leaking en masse the kind of highly sensitive information that has appeared in the last couple of days makes doing that important job more difficult. Almost as importantly, it shows Assange doesnt have the ability to discriminate between what is public interest and what isnt. Everything, to him, is public property and the private sphere doesnt exist.

As to the response of the Left, I think John Pilger is a fairly dense polemicist who has an inflated sense of his own importance and usually ends up doing the cause of the Left a disservice ('This is an innocent man' Pilger announced grandiously last night...OK, then John, if you have some inside info on the rape allegations you'd better get in the dock as a defence witness). I'm surprised at Ken Loach though, I thought he had a bit more sense than to spring to Assange's defence without clearly knowing any more than anybody else about the charges.

:agree:

Put it another way, how would you, I or Julian Assange like it if a transcript of every phone call, email or letter we sent or received was made public?

Its a kind of insanity. I wonder sometimes whether the Chinese have got the right idea. Western democracy is presently dysfunctional and is being perverted by vested interests.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Has anyone actually registered for this site and downloaded any of the documents??

[bighairyfaeleith]

Thinking more about this, more and more I'm siding with wikileaks, the pressure being applied on them by governments is pretty shocking and sets some very dangerous precedents. Paypal, mastercard and visa have all just frozen money belonging to wikileaks that was donated by people. On what basis has this been done and on what basis could this be done again in the future.

If I give money to an organisation through paypal/visa/mastercard and they then keep this money, it's little more than theft.

Like I said earlier in the thread I really think this could come back to haunt the US in a big way, you would think they would have realised after iraq and afghanistan that heavy handed tactics can't win these sort of fights and in the same way that terrorist organisations break up and reform continually so will websites like wikileaks. There doesn't even need to be a website called wikileaks, as long as torrents exist the data will keep getting out.

If the MAN really wants to stop this then they need to stop trying to hit the obvious target.

[bighairyfaeleith]

What did you think was good about it?

They've tried to justify the latest leaks by what I would call public interest information in the past. The two are unrelated and anything good they've done in the past does not automatically make them right this time.

They've tried to divert attention to other news publications despite them being the source of the info. Stupid arguement. The press are just printing the info because it's current and might make them some money with the mostly ridiculous headlines.

As for Sarah palin, yes, a woman who is not in power and doesn't control American security, is calling for his head because it appeals to her right wing voters.

It seems biased to me and just summarises what's already been in the press.

How many people have been actually put in danger by wikileaks?

How many people have actually been killed or injured by anything published by wikileaks?

How many people have been killed by the US and the UK's wars in the last four years?

Is wikileaks really the big danger here?

[Betty Boop]

Thinking more about this, more and more I'm siding with wikileaks, the pressure being applied on them by governments is pretty shocking and sets some very dangerous precedents. Paypal, mastercard and visa have all just frozen money belonging to wikileaks that was donated by people. On what basis has this been done and on what basis could this be done again in the future.

If I give money to an organisation through paypal/visa/mastercard and they then keep this money, it's little more than theft.

Like I said earlier in the thread I really think this could come back to haunt the US in a big way, you would think they would have realised after iraq and afghanistan that heavy handed tactics can't win these sort of fights and in the same way that terrorist organisations break up and reform continually so will websites like wikileaks. There doesn't even need to be a website called wikileaks, as long as torrents exist the data will keep getting out.

If the MAN really wants to stop this then they need to stop trying to hit the obvious target.

:top marks You won't be popular with that opinion on here, the right wing roasters will be rounding on you shortly. It is clear that the aim is to have Julian Assange silenced and extradited to the USA, where the media and political figures are carrying out a witchhunt against him and Wikileaks. There are calls for him to be treated as an enemy combatant and even to be assassinated, so I am sure he would receive a fair trial. :rolleyes: As for the hypocrisy of Mastercard, Visa, Paypal they are hypocrites of the highest order, one phone call from Joe Lieberman with the threat of a boycott, was enough for Amazon to pull the plug. Mastercard and Visa however, are quite comfortable with processing payments supporting White Supremist websites and the KKK. You couldn't make it up ! Here is an article from a former US intelligence officer, which highlights the double standards of the Americans.

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/12/08/leaks-and-leakers/

[Woody1985]

How many people have been actually put in danger by wikileaks?

How many people have actually been killed or injured by anything published by wikileaks?

How many people have been killed by the US and the UK's wars in the last four years?

Is wikileaks really the big danger here?

I don't know the exact number put in danger but they've published a list of critical places linked to us security so I would say everyone one of them.

Considering that this type of detail has only been made public in the last few days there's not been any harm done so far. There might be in future, there might not. It's the principle and lack of thought that are the issues.

I agree on your last points, in the grand scheme of things no. And I agree with the stuff released in the past. Just not this stuff.


Does that cassify me as a right wing roaster, I'm confused where I stand because I make a judgement on each situation rather than prescribed ideologies like left wing loonies.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I don't know the exact number put in danger but they've published a list of critical places linked to us security so I would say everyone one of them.

Considering that this type of detail has only been made public in the last few days there's not been any harm done so far. There might be in future, there might not. It's the principle and lack of thought that are the issues.

I agree on your last points, in the grand scheme of things no. And I agree with the stuff released in the past. Just not this stuff.


Does that cassify me as a right wing roaster, I'm confused where I stand because I make a judgement on each situation rather than prescribed ideologies like left wing loonies.

I quite like the term right wing roaster:greengrin

I kind of agree that the way this stuff has been released might not be right, however I don't think it is worth all the things that are happening as a result and I think it just shows how dangerous governments can be when decode they want to be, also shows some big businesses up for the sort of companies they really are.

[discman]

I don't know the exact number put in danger but they've published a list of critical places linked to us security so I would say everyone one of them.

Considering that this type of detail has only been made public in the last few days there's not been any harm done so far. There might be in future, there might not. It's the principle and lack of thought that are the issues.

I agree on your last points, in the grand scheme of things no. And I agree with the stuff released in the past. Just not this stuff.


Does that cassify me as a right wing roaster, I'm confused where I stand because I make a judgement on each situation rather than prescribed ideologies like left wing loonies.


yup! :greengrin

[discman]

Theres a fairly clear difference. The incident in the summer involved the killing of un-armed civilians by US marines, and the subsequent attempt by the US military to cover it up. The public interest in releasing that is incontrovertable.

The current leaks are a completely different set of circumstances, involving the release of private conversations between diplomats on state security.

Journalists normally discriminate between what is in the public interest to know and what isnt. Like it or not, in the world of international relations, successful dilpomacy is the only thing that separates the world from more or less constant global conflict. Leaking en masse the kind of highly sensitive information that has appeared in the last couple of days makes doing that important job more difficult. Almost as importantly, it shows Assange doesnt have the ability to discriminate between what is public interest and what isnt. Everything, to him, is public property and the private sphere doesnt exist.

As to the response of the Left, I think John Pilger is a fairly dense polemicist who has an inflated sense of his own importance and usually ends up doing the cause of the Left a disservice ('This is an innocent man' Pilger announced grandiously last night...OK, then John, if you have some inside info on the rape allegations you'd better get in the dock as a defence witness). I'm surprised at Ken Loach though, I thought he had a bit more sense than to spring to Assange's defence without clearly knowing any more than anybody else about the charges.


We have discussed before about the definition of say human rights, and Ithink you pointed out that it depends upon a variety of issues and thats something I would agree with,Assange who I whole heartedly support is putting information out into the wider domain,people can decide for themselves wither its boring or tittle tattle
or maybe helps validates people suspicion about Shells involvement in Nigeria,about the whole Megrahi incident, me I find it fascinating;

This on a bigger scale than the Pentagon Papers but kinda similar I think it is healthy!



With regard to the second highlight: google Seven steps to legal revenge: Anna Ardin, and give it a look,and decide for yourself whither it was a set up or not:greengrin

[discman]

:agree:

Put it another way, how would you, I or Julian Assange like it if a transcript of every phone call, email or letter we sent or received was made public?

Its a kind of insanity. I wonder sometimes whether the Chinese have got the right idea. Western democracy is presently dysfunctional and is being perverted by vested interests.


The Americans can do this its called: Echelon, check it on wikipedia :greengrin

[Woody1985]

So which of you support the acts of DDoS that is ongoing against major companies?

I would absolutely ****ing piss myself if the app they're rolling out is loaded with viruses. :faf:

[bighairyfaeleith]

Thought this guy pretty much hit the nail on the head


Jack Shafer, Slate: “Assange’s jailing changes the ‘conversation’ from how-dare-he to how-dare-they almost as efficiently as if a deranged vigilante had put a bullet in his brain. Our culture loves to protect and defend ‘victims,’ which is what the legal proceedings are turning him into. Overnight, he’s becoming an albino Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., writing his letter from jail. . . . The decisions by Visa, MasterCard and PayPal to shutter WikiLeaks accounts for reasons similar to those of Amazon will also backfire in Assange’s favour. People who didn’t much care about WikiLeaks last week might became outraged and politicized by the financial overlords’ capricious behaviour . . . The more WikiLeaks leaks while Assange is in jail, the more he’ll become like Spartacus, making him an inspirational figure, not just a controversial one. The mirroring of the WikiLeaks information to hundreds of servers around the globe is one manifestation of the Spartacus effect.”

[bighairyfaeleith]

So which of you support the acts of DDoS that is ongoing against major companies?

I would absolutely ****ing piss myself if the app they're rolling out is loaded with viruses. :faf:

I can't quite believe people are being so stupid as to download the program as it's completely illegal to use it in this way. There may well be a few of us who are unwittingly having there computers used as they are infected already with a virus and don't realise.

[Woody1985]

I can't quite believe people are being so stupid as to download the program as it's completely illegal to use it in this way. There may well be a few of us who are unwittingly having there computers used as they are infected already with a virus and don't realise.

I knew it was illegal but just wanted to see how many people supported breaking the law to get their own way.

[khib70]

:top marks You won't be popular with that opinion on here, the right wing roasters will be rounding on you shortly. It is clear that the aim is to have Julian Assange silenced and extradited to the USA, where the media and political figures are carrying out a witchhunt against him and Wikileaks. There are calls for him to be treated as an enemy combatant and even to be assassinated, so I am sure he would receive a fair trial. :rolleyes: As for the hypocrisy of Mastercard, Visa, Paypal they are hypocrites of the highest order, one phone call from Joe Lieberman with the threat of a boycott, was enough for Amazon to pull the plug. Mastercard and Visa however, are quite comfortable with processing payments supporting White Supremist websites and the KKK. You couldn't make it up ! Here is an article from a former US intelligence officer, which highlights the double standards of the Americans.

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/12/08/leaks-and-leakers/
God, he's off again. The very man who gets a petted lip at the merest hint of "personal" abuse.

Would you mind explaining which part of the USA Sweden is in? Would you mind telling us on what evidence you assert that "it is clear" that it's all designed to get Assange on trial in the USA. Your standards of proof are clearly lower than Jon Pilgers - and that's saying something.

I don't know whether the allegations against Assange are true or false, because I don't have access to the relevant information, which is sub judice anyway. That hasn't stopped you pronouncing him innocent and the victim of a nasty Yankee plot. You're the one judging the case apparently - so you produce the evidence,eh?
.
Nor has it stopped your fellow left wingers from identifying and vilifying the alleged victims on the internet. What about their rights?

You're just following your usual blinkered agenda under which everyone left wing who is accused of anything is automatically innocent, and the victim of a conspiracy by the USA/Israel/Rupert Murdoch/the Illuminati (delete as appropriate).

And as for the nerds who have taken time out from World of Warcraft, and pleasuring themselves to manga videos to crash websites, they're just saddos doing it because they can. They get a great big stiffie from preventing people buying their kids' Christmas presents, and giving themselves nicknames like "Cold Blood" - but they actually don't give a toss about you, me Julian Assange, or politics generally. Strange bedfellows indeed.

[Betty Boop]

God, he's off again. The very man who gets a petted lip at the merest hint of "personal" abuse.

Would you mind explaining which part of the USA Sweden is in? Would you mind telling us on what evidence you assert that "it is clear" that it's all designed to get Assange on trial in the USA. Your standards of proof are clearly lower than Jon Pilgers - and that's saying something.

I don't know whether the allegations against Assange are true or false, because I don't have access to the relevant information, which is sub judice anyway. That hasn't stopped you pronouncing him innocent and the victim of a nasty Yankee plot. You're the one judging the case apparently - so you produce the evidence,eh?
.
Nor has it stopped your fellow left wingers from identifying and vilifying the alleged victims on the internet. What about their rights?

You're just following your usual blinkered agenda under which everyone left wing who is accused of anything is automatically innocent, and the victim of a conspiracy by the USA/Israel/Rupert Murdoch/the Illuminati (delete as appropriate).

And as for the nerds who have taken time out from World of Warcraft, and pleasuring themselves to manga videos to crash websites, they're just saddos doing it because they can. They get a great big stiffie from preventing people buying their kids' Christmas presents, and giving themselves nicknames like "Cold Blood" - but they actually don't give a toss about you, me Julian Assange, or politics generally. Strange bedfellows indeed.

I'm a female, and I was responding to your 'usual suspects' and 'left wing loonie' insults. Sorry, that I reduced myself to your level.:greengrin

[khib70]

I'm a female, and I was responding to your 'usual suspects' and 'left wing loonie' insults. Sorry, that I reduced myself to your level.:greengrin
Sorry! The user name should have been a bit of a clue.:doh::greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Sorry! The user name should have been a bit of a clue.:doh::greengrin

I've just noticed your location, right wing roaster ! :faf:

[Woody1985]

I've just noticed your location, right wing roaster ! :faf:

:faf:

I never noticed that.

[Betty Boop]

Talking of John Pilger, ITV1 are showing his new film 'The War You Don't See' on Tuesday at 10.35pm. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Talking of John Pilger, ITV1 are showing his new film 'The War You Don't See' on Tuesday at 10.35pm. :greengrin

There was a related article in the Guardian the other day (insert "can't be bothered to post link" smiley). Whilst it's probably smart to read the article with a knowledge of JP's past, he did say one thing that backs up what I have been saying throughout. ie that Wikileaks has done what investigative journalism should have been doing anyway.

Exhibit A

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/09/wikileaks-cables-pfizer-nigeria

[discman]

God, he's off again. The very man who gets a petted lip at the merest hint of "personal" abuse.

Would you mind explaining which part of the USA Sweden is in? Would you mind telling us on what evidence you assert that "it is clear" that it's all designed to get Assange on trial in the USA. Your standards of proof are clearly lower than Jon Pilgers - and that's saying something.

I don't know whether the allegations against Assange are true or false, because I don't have access to the relevant information, which is sub judice anyway. That hasn't stopped you pronouncing him innocent and the victim of a nasty Yankee plot. You're the one judging the case apparently - so you produce the evidence,eh?
.
Nor has it stopped your fellow left wingers from identifying and vilifying the alleged victims on the internet. What about their rights?

You're just following your usual blinkered agenda under which everyone left wing who is accused of anything is automatically innocent, and the victim of a conspiracy by the USA/Israel/Rupert Murdoch/the Illuminati (delete as appropriate).

And as for the nerds who have taken time out from World of Warcraft, and pleasuring themselves to manga videos to crash websites, they're just saddos doing it because they can. They get a great big stiffie from preventing people buying their kids' Christmas presents, and giving themselves nicknames like "Cold Blood" - but they actually don't give a toss about you, me Julian Assange, or politics generally. Strange bedfellows indeed.



Senator Mike Huckabee presidential candidate repulican party, "should be tried for treaso and executed"

Sarah Pallin ditto

Sen, Joe Lieberman chair,Senate Homeland Security Com.called on the Obama administration "to use all legal means necassary to shut down Wikileaks"


Theres loads more but its not a great leap including reserecting a"rape" case that one Swedish prosecutor had already throwen out!!:greengrin



But maybe you hope that tomorrow will eventually belong to you :cool2:

[aberhibsfc]

Well folks, just been on the website for a looksee, have to say it's pretty darn boring. The BBC, like most things have sexed it up a bit.

**************Boring Rant Alert*******************************

Not being a hyper-intelligent super-spy I gave up interest after a few short minutes which felt like much longer. The site has to be more complicated than any highly encrypted information as it is protected by the ensuing boredum of scouring through it for anything interesting.

It's no secret that Governments like to manipulate things in their favour, the key weapon being 'Fear' it's proven a good control mechanism allowing military and financial decisions to be made without contradiction.

A bit like Governments squeezing in a new tax here or there or an energy company hiking prices during understandable scenarios at the time, they hope we don't notice when situations improve but the changes remain. Governments can package anything up as sensitive and hide it and in the main we just go along with it because we have more pressing personal stuff to be getting on with.

Governments should be answerable to their people most of the time, I'm for transparency / freedom of information but not at any cost well certainly not in the case of national security or putting lives at risks in which instance the site should be wiped. What I've gathered from the news is mainly embarrassing American tittle-tattle which leaves them red faced and not much more. It'll be interesting watching them rebuild their tarnished reputations but not much more. Well at least I hope not.

*******************Resume Reading***************************

I would have been far more exited if it shone a light on Area 51 or even more importantly who is Colin Calderwood scouting for a January move to Hibs.


P.S if the FBI happen to stumble upon this, any chance of a new season of the X-Files?

[khib70]

Senator Mike Huckabee presidential candidate repulican party, "should be tried for treaso and executed"

Sarah Pallin ditto

Sen, Joe Lieberman chair,Senate Homeland Security Com.called on the Obama administration "to use all legal means necassary to shut down Wikileaks"


Theres loads more but its not a great leap including reserecting a"rape" case that one Swedish prosecutor had already throwen out!!:greengrin



But maybe you hope that tomorrow will eventually belong to you :cool2:
Oh, very funny, and about the level I'd expect from the Left. "Anyone who doesn't agree with us is a Nazi" . ****ing grow up and get real!

The only Nazis on this case are the Assange groupies who have identified, vilified and harrassed the alleged victims,. They have published their names, hacked their Facebook and Twitter accounts, and crashed their lawyers website. Obviously,the Left is all for protecting women from harassment, until the point when they make accusations against the subject ofthe current lefty love-in.

And because Joe Lieberman calls for the site to be shut down, you make the vast logical leap to the point where sexual misconduct accusations in Sweden get him extradited to the USA. It's actually a great deal harder to be extradited from Sweden to the US,than it is from Britain.

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of our deification of an arrogant maverick journalist with a hugely inflated idea of his own importance.

And if you want to call someone a Nazi, at least have the balls to come right out and do it, instead of using snide innuendoes,eh?

[hibsbollah]

Oh, very funny, and about the level I'd expect from the Left. "Anyone who doesn't agree with us is a Nazi" . ****ing grow up and get real!

The only Nazis on this case are the Assange groupies who have identified, vilified and harrassed the alleged victims,. They have published their names, hacked their Facebook and Twitter accounts, and crashed their lawyers website. Obviously,the Left is all for protecting women from harassment, until the point when they make accusations against the subject ofthe current lefty love-in.

And because Joe Lieberman calls for the site to be shut down, you make the vast logical leap to the point where sexual misconduct accusations in Sweden get him extradited to the USA. It's actually a great deal harder to be extradited from Sweden to the US,than it is from Britain.

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of our deification of an arrogant maverick journalist with a hugely inflated idea of his own importance.

And if you want to call someone a Nazi, at least have the balls to come right out and do it, instead of using snide innuendoes,eh?

Its actually a Malcolm X quote. And a very good one too. So you should be flattered, he thinks you're one of the late 20th Century America's great political thinkers:wink:

To be honest,im in the unusual position of agreeing with you again.

[Leicester Fan]

Its actually a Malcolm X quote.

It's actually the title of a supposed Nazi anthem from the film 'Cabaret'.

It's ironic that it's the Guardian that's publishing these hacked leaks in the UK after the way they have condemned Andy Coulson and the NOTW for hacking into peoples answer phones.

[hibsbollah]

It's actually the title of a supposed Nazi anthem from the film 'Cabaret'.



I was aware of that, i just thought i'd take it somewhere else. And he did say something very similar.

[marinello59]

It's actually the title of a supposed Nazi anthem from the film 'Cabaret'.

It's ironic that it's the Guardian that's publishing these hacked leaks in the UK after the way they have condemned Andy Coulson and the NOTW for hacking into peoples answer phones.

As covered by Spitting Image.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIAna459sg

[Sir David Gray]

I personally don't think that it was necessary for the Wikileaks stuff to be released as it could have some very serious implications for world security. The 'revelations' about Prince Andrew and Silvio Berlusconi are just nonsense tittle tattle that The Sun and OK! magazine should be more concerned with.

However, all the things that have come out about Russia could be potentially quite serious and the news about Iran, whilst not coming as a surprise, could also have a really devastating effect on a region that is already very destabilised.

There is a place for investigative journalism and people who whistleblow but I think this is just completely irresponsible.

Having said that, there is a part of me that thinks that if the USA were to conduct themselves in a better manner, they wouldn't need to hide anything. But I'm not naive, I realise that all governments have their secrets and things go on behind closed doors all the time that the general public never gets to know about. Some of those things just shouldn't be made public.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Car Bomb just went off in sweden ,any link do you think?

[khib70]

Car Bomb just went off in sweden ,any link do you think?
Initial reports suggest an Islamist suicide bomber

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11977524

[Betty Boop]

Senator Mike Huckabee presidential candidate repulican party, "should be tried for treaso and executed"

Sarah Pallin ditto

Sen, Joe Lieberman chair,Senate Homeland Security Com.called on the Obama administration "to use all legal means necassary to shut down Wikileaks"


Theres loads more but its not a great leap including reserecting a"rape" case that one Swedish prosecutor had already throwen out!!:greengrin



But maybe you hope that tomorrow will eventually belong to you :cool2:

Apparently one of his Assange's accusers has moved to the West Bank.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/anna-ardin-julian-assange_n_794285.html

[CropleyWasGod]

Apparently one of his Assange's accusers has moved to the West Bank.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/anna-ardin-julian-assange_n_794285.html

Or, rather, she hasn't... :greengrin

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/wikileaks-where-in-the-world-is-miss-a-anna-ardin/19755864

[Betty Boop]

Or, rather, she hasn't... :greengrin

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/wikileaks-where-in-the-world-is-miss-a-anna-ardin/19755864

She has cancelled her trip ? This story is sure moving at a fast pace ! :greengrin

[GhostofBolivar]

"Despite billions invested on construction of an untested defense system, the new Death Star may not yet be fully operational."

Oh. I thought this thread was about the brilliant @wookieleaks twitter feed. My bad.

[hibsbollah]

She has cancelled her trip ? This story is sure moving at a fast pace ! :greengrin

Do you think someone who reports a rape should be taken seriously or not? Or does that depend on who the perpetrator is?:confused: It seems to me that you've taken the side of a potential predatory rapist on the basis of the fact that he's dangerous to the American authorities. Its a peculiar position for you, Jemima Khan, or any other seemingly empowered, liberal woman to take, isnt it?

Theres an interesting and balanced report below.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/11/wikileaks-backlash-cyber-war

Stockholm
Unsurprisingly, the timing of Assange's arrest and aspects of Sweden's initial handling of the sexual allegations prompted his lawyer Mark Stephens to denounce the moves as politically motivated. A computer hacker himself, Assange, 39, achieved both instant notoriety and adulation when WikiLeaks published batches of damaging US files relating to the Afghan war in July. This fame led him to Stockholm a month later to deliver a lecture entitled: "Truth is the first casualty of war." It was a sellout. One leftwing commentator likened it to "having Mick Jagger in town".

That night – 14 August – Assange stayed with the conference organiser at her flat in Södermalm, a former working class area of the city centre that has become Stockholm's equivalent of London's Islington. Three days later, in keeping with his habit of regularly changing addresses, Assange stayed in Enköping, a town 100 miles from Stockholm, with another woman who had also attended his lecture on the importance of truth in a war zone.

Assange left Sweden on 18 August and the women went together to the police the next day. According to Claes Borgström, their lawyer, the women did not know each other before going to the police. Initially, he said, the women wanted some advice, but the police officer concluded a crime had been committed and contacted the duty public prosecutor.

In court last week Assange was alleged to have had sex with unlawful coercion with a woman who was asleep and to have sexually molested the other by having sex without a condom.

In Sweden, among the country's community of hackers and left-leaning political activists, the timing is viewed as coincidental rather than conspiratorial.
"The Americans are very lucky indeed that Assange screwed around in Sweden, a society which takes rape allegations very seriously,'' said Åsa Linderborg, culture editor of the leftwing Aftonbladet tabloid. Film-maker Bosse Lindquist, whose WikiLeaks investigation will be broadcast on Swedish TV tonight, and who has spent many hours with Assange over the past few months, said Assange's attitude to women did not seem in any way striking.

"If you look at the two prosecutors involved in investigating the rape allegations, they are not types you would imagine bowing to any kind of pressure from, say, the Swedish government or the United States.''

A senior civil servant, who requested anonymity, also dismissed allegations of political plotting against Assange, arguing that Swedish culture is often misunderstood. "Swedes do not have an iconoclastic tradition in which you build people up then demolish their reputations. Even when people are celebrities, we accept that they may have questionable private lives. Swedes are capable of seeing the advantages of WikiLeaks while conceding that Assange may have unsavoury morals between the sheets.''

Linderborg, though, says there is a widespread sense in Sweden that Assange's rise to fame fuelled his libido and ego.
"Plenty of women are attracted by his underdog status and the supposed danger of spending time with him. He has several women on the go at once. One person told me he screws more often than he eats,'' Linderborg said.

[khib70]

Do you think someone who reports a rape should be taken seriously or not? Or does that depend on who the perpetrator is?:confused: It seems to me that you've taken the side of a potential predatory rapist on the basis of the fact that he's dangerous to the American authorities. Its a peculiar position for you, Jemima Khan, or any other seemingly empowered, liberal woman to take, isnt it?

Theres an interesting and balanced report below.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/11/wikileaks-backlash-cyber-war

Stockholm
Unsurprisingly, the timing of Assange's arrest and aspects of Sweden's initial handling of the sexual allegations prompted his lawyer Mark Stephens to denounce the moves as politically motivated. A computer hacker himself, Assange, 39, achieved both instant notoriety and adulation when WikiLeaks published batches of damaging US files relating to the Afghan war in July. This fame led him to Stockholm a month later to deliver a lecture entitled: "Truth is the first casualty of war." It was a sellout. One leftwing commentator likened it to "having Mick Jagger in town".

That night – 14 August – Assange stayed with the conference organiser at her flat in Södermalm, a former working class area of the city centre that has become Stockholm's equivalent of London's Islington. Three days later, in keeping with his habit of regularly changing addresses, Assange stayed in Enköping, a town 100 miles from Stockholm, with another woman who had also attended his lecture on the importance of truth in a war zone.

Assange left Sweden on 18 August and the women went together to the police the next day. According to Claes Borgström, their lawyer, the women did not know each other before going to the police. Initially, he said, the women wanted some advice, but the police officer concluded a crime had been committed and contacted the duty public prosecutor.

In court last week Assange was alleged to have had sex with unlawful coercion with a woman who was asleep and to have sexually molested the other by having sex without a condom.

In Sweden, among the country's community of hackers and left-leaning political activists, the timing is viewed as coincidental rather than conspiratorial.
"The Americans are very lucky indeed that Assange screwed around in Sweden, a society which takes rape allegations very seriously,'' said Åsa Linderborg, culture editor of the leftwing Aftonbladet tabloid. Film-maker Bosse Lindquist, whose WikiLeaks investigation will be broadcast on Swedish TV tonight, and who has spent many hours with Assange over the past few months, said Assange's attitude to women did not seem in any way striking.

"If you look at the two prosecutors involved in investigating the rape allegations, they are not types you would imagine bowing to any kind of pressure from, say, the Swedish government or the United States.''

A senior civil servant, who requested anonymity, also dismissed allegations of political plotting against Assange, arguing that Swedish culture is often misunderstood. "Swedes do not have an iconoclastic tradition in which you build people up then demolish their reputations. Even when people are celebrities, we accept that they may have questionable private lives. Swedes are capable of seeing the advantages of WikiLeaks while conceding that Assange may have unsavoury morals between the sheets.''

Linderborg, though, says there is a widespread sense in Sweden that Assange's rise to fame fuelled his libido and ego.
"Plenty of women are attracted by his underdog status and the supposed danger of spending time with him. He has several women on the go at once. One person told me he screws more often than he eats,'' Linderborg said.
It's getting scarier all the time, HB - have to agree 100% with you and the Guardian here.

Frankly, the way some people, Naomi Wolf, Jemima Khan (and Betty??) for example, have abandoned their legitimate and long-standing stance on women reporting rape is just plain alarming. How bad are they going to look if the charges against Assange are proven? How many years of progress in the treatment of women, and the image of predatory male sexuality have to be junked to save Assange?

I repeat. The alleged victims have been identified, villified, harrassed, as have their lawyers. Is this OK because the alleged perpetrator is the current pin-up boy of some sections of the Left? I say "some sections" since yourself and other principled left wingers have been admirably direct in their condemnation of what is rapidly turning into a modern day, high tech witch hunt.

[Betty Boop]

Do you think someone who reports a rape should be taken seriously or not? Or does that depend on who the perpetrator is?:confused: It seems to me that you've taken the side of a potential predatory rapist on the basis of the fact that he's dangerous to the American authorities. Its a peculiar position for you, Jemima Khan, or any other seemingly empowered, liberal woman to take, isnt it?

Theres an interesting and balanced report below.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/11/wikileaks-backlash-cyber-war

Stockholm
Unsurprisingly, the timing of Assange's arrest and aspects of Sweden's initial handling of the sexual allegations prompted his lawyer Mark Stephens to denounce the moves as politically motivated. A computer hacker himself, Assange, 39, achieved both instant notoriety and adulation when WikiLeaks published batches of damaging US files relating to the Afghan war in July. This fame led him to Stockholm a month later to deliver a lecture entitled: "Truth is the first casualty of war." It was a sellout. One leftwing commentator likened it to "having Mick Jagger in town".

That night – 14 August – Assange stayed with the conference organiser at her flat in Södermalm, a former working class area of the city centre that has become Stockholm's equivalent of London's Islington. Three days later, in keeping with his habit of regularly changing addresses, Assange stayed in Enköping, a town 100 miles from Stockholm, with another woman who had also attended his lecture on the importance of truth in a war zone.

Assange left Sweden on 18 August and the women went together to the police the next day. According to Claes Borgström, their lawyer, the women did not know each other before going to the police. Initially, he said, the women wanted some advice, but the police officer concluded a crime had been committed and contacted the duty public prosecutor.

In court last week Assange was alleged to have had sex with unlawful coercion with a woman who was asleep and to have sexually molested the other by having sex without a condom.

In Sweden, among the country's community of hackers and left-leaning political activists, the timing is viewed as coincidental rather than conspiratorial.
"The Americans are very lucky indeed that Assange screwed around in Sweden, a society which takes rape allegations very seriously,'' said Åsa Linderborg, culture editor of the leftwing Aftonbladet tabloid. Film-maker Bosse Lindquist, whose WikiLeaks investigation will be broadcast on Swedish TV tonight, and who has spent many hours with Assange over the past few months, said Assange's attitude to women did not seem in any way striking.

"If you look at the two prosecutors involved in investigating the rape allegations, they are not types you would imagine bowing to any kind of pressure from, say, the Swedish government or the United States.''

A senior civil servant, who requested anonymity, also dismissed allegations of political plotting against Assange, arguing that Swedish culture is often misunderstood. "Swedes do not have an iconoclastic tradition in which you build people up then demolish their reputations. Even when people are celebrities, we accept that they may have questionable private lives. Swedes are capable of seeing the advantages of WikiLeaks while conceding that Assange may have unsavoury morals between the sheets.''

Linderborg, though, says there is a widespread sense in Sweden that Assange's rise to fame fuelled his libido and ego.
"Plenty of women are attracted by his underdog status and the supposed danger of spending time with him. He has several women on the go at once. One person told me he screws more often than he eats,'' Linderborg said.

I read that article, however you would agree that you cant blame me for being skeptical, when you read that one of his 'victims' allegedly threw a party for the guy she has accused of raping her, the next day. Also she tweeted about her seven steps for revenge plan, on how to deal with cheating boyfriends, which she has since deleted. The arrest warrant was withdrawn in August only to resurface in December, something doesn't add up. Assange's barrister wrote this-

Apparently having consensual sex in Sweden without a condom is punishable by a term of imprisonment of a minimum of two years for rape. That is the basis for a reinstitution of rape charges against WikiLeaks figurehead Julian Assange that is destined to make Sweden and its justice system the laughing stock of the world and dramatically damage its reputation as a model of modernity.
Sweden’s Public Prosecutor’s Office was embarrassed in August this year when it leaked to the media that it was seeking to arrest Assange for rape, then on the same day withdrew the arrest warrant because in its own words there was “no evidence”. The damage to Assange’s reputation is incalculable. More than three quarters of internet references to his name refer to rape. Now, three months on and three prosecutors later, the Swedes seem to be clear on their basis to proceed. Consensual sex that started out with a condom ended up without one, ergo, the sex was not consensual.

[The] phenomena of social networking through the internet and mobile phones constrains Swedish authorities from augmenting the evidence against Assange because it would look even less credible in the face of tweets by Anna Ardin and SMS texts by Sofia Wilén boasting of their respective conquests after the “crimes” (http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/02/when-it-comes-to-assange-r-pe-case-the-swedes-are-making-it-up-as-they-go-along/).
In the case of Ardin it is clear that she has thrown a party in Assange’s honour at her flat after the “crime” and tweeted to her followers that she is with the “the world’s coolest smartest people, it’s amazing!”. Go on the internet and see for yourself. That Ardin has sought unsuccessfully to delete these exculpatory tweets from the public record should be a matter of grave concern. That she has published on the internet a guide on how to get revenge on cheating boyfriends ever graver. The exact content of Wilén’s mobile phone texts is not yet known but their bragging and exculpatory character has been confirmed by Swedish prosecutors. Neither Wilén’s nor Ardin’s texts complain of rape.

[hibsbollah]

I read that article, however you would agree that you cant blame me for being skeptical, when you read that one of his 'victims' allegedly threw a party for the guy she has accused of raping her, the next day. Also she tweeted about her seven steps for revenge plan, on how to deal with cheating boyfriends, which she has since deleted.

I'll take that as a 'no'. You're just repeating tittle-tattle type gossip and rumour that you'd probably be up in arms about if it was in the News of the World. I'd invite you to imagine what these women, are currently going through if they are telling the truth. First they get raped by someone they revered who they offered lodging to, and then are mercilessly pilloried by millions of the libertarian community that they are a part of. Nice.

[khib70]

I'll take that as a 'no'. You're just repeating tittle-tattle type gossip and rumour that you'd probably be up in arms about if it was in the News of the World. I'd invite you to imagine what these women, are currently going through if they are telling the truth. First they get raped by someone they revered who they offered lodging to, and then are mercilessly pilloried by millions of the libertarian community that they are a part of. Nice.
Right again, HB. We're not that far away from "she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it" here, are we? I don't know if Assange is guilty or not. Unlike some, I am making no assertions either way. But I am appalled at the double standards being applied here. The way these women have been treated by self-appointed defenders of freedom beggars belief, and is reminiscent of the Stasi at their worst.

[hibsdaft]

Got to lol at those US Politicians calling for him to be executed for treason. He's Australian.

That said I don't think I can support this latest leak. Its just the dumping of confidential material. If you support it you're saying there is no place for confidentiality, well sorry but thats bollocks, and to operate yes governments and their institutions need some platform in which they can communicate honestly and not in couched diplomatic terms.

Whistleblowing is good, but whistleblowing is by nature targeted on a major wrong, not simply the dumping of material. That's where they have crossed the line in my view. I am all for people using the material for good purpose now its out, but it should not all have been dumped in this way.

What pisses me off though is that in my job I am severely constrained by FOI and cannot write even a post-it without thinking about the potential consequences, and these idiots have been writing highly damaging material which was able to be leaked. I do a fairly basic low pay public sector job and take more precautions than them. Its laughable.

[Woody1985]

I think it's hilarious that people argue against things like the death penalty on the basis that the justice system gets it wrong yet it's not conceivable that the first prosecutor could have got it wrong because it doesn't support their stance.

[Betty Boop]

I'll take that as a 'no'. You're just repeating tittle-tattle type gossip and rumour that you'd probably be up in arms about if it was in the News of the World. I'd invite you to imagine what these women, are currently going through if they are telling the truth. First they get raped by someone they revered who they offered lodging to, and then are mercilessly pilloried by millions of the libertarian community that they are a part of. Nice.

You can take it any way you want! Every one is entitled to their opinion, and I am basing mine on what I have read, as I assume you have. However you appear to be implying that Assange's barrister is being economical with the truth, this would surely be detrimental to his clients case. No?

[hibsbollah]

You can take it any way you want!

I've no other choice really, since you've studiously ignored my question.

As to Assange's legal team, they operate within the remit of every legal team on the planet; ie-to get their client off with it-and i'd take whatever any legal team says pre-trial with a pinch of salt. I have no idea if the rape allegations are true or not.

[discman]

I'll take that as a 'no'. You're just repeating tittle-tattle type gossip and rumour that you'd probably be up in arms about if it was in the News of the World. I'd invite you to imagine what these women, are currently going through if they are telling the truth. First they get raped by someone they revered who they offered lodging to, and then are mercilessly pilloried by millions of the libertarian community that they are a part of. Nice.


So he's guilty then? Whatever happened to "innocent etc etc If he's found guilty then he desesrves everything they throw at him,no problem with that,however there was an ex-judge/advisor to the Bush government on channel4 who said if he was found guilty that could be the bases for extradition to the USA to face charges of treason, and I do appreciate that may be greeted with whoops of joy however,back to the issue of wikileaks and the leaking of info;

You posted earlier about the appropriateness of the leaking of the shooting of civilians and children by American gunship,but not the Bush administration putting pressure on the German government not to prosecute CIA officers resposible for the kidnapping,extraordinary rendition and torture of German national Khaled El-Masri?

Not the involvement of Shell in the affairs of the Nigerian goverment?

Not the revelation that two senior civil servants assured US diplomats that the renewal Britains Trident nuclear programme would go ahead,contradicting the then prime minister Gordon Brown?

Maybe if wikileaks had been "leaking" before the Iraq war re the WMD an awful lot of people wouldnt have died including innocent citizens under a hail of bullets from a US gunship?

If its just tittle/tattle and diplomats by their nature, I am sure will be able to build bridges, the more transparent the world can become,the more information we can have,who knows Hibsbollah,people may become moved enough to protest about the indignities and horrors perpetuated against peoples throughout the world and if that sounds sanctimonious tough,gotta believe in something:greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'll take that as a 'no'. You're just repeating tittle-tattle type gossip and rumour that you'd probably be up in arms about if it was in the News of the World. I'd invite you to imagine what these women, are currently going through if they are telling the truth. First they get raped by someone they revered who they offered lodging to, and then are mercilessly pilloried by millions of the libertarian community that they are a part of. Nice.

I think this argument is getting into dangerous territory, however do you not think that women who make up rape claims do more damage to liberal women than good?

Now I'm not saying they have made it up, but if he is found innocent then this has to be true does it not?

[khib70]

I think this argument is getting into dangerous territory, however do you not think that women who make up rape claims do more damage to liberal women than good?

Now I'm not saying they have made it up, but if he is found innocent then this has to be true does it not?
And if he's found guilty, then two victims of sexual crimes have been mercilessly harassed by self-styled libertarians.

Surely the point is that nobody knows either way. However, one group of people has automatically assumed not only that Assange is innocent, but that his accusers have fabricated the incident, probably at the behest of the US. They have no evidence whatsoever to support this assumption, but are making it on the basis that Assange shares their political agenda. This is stupid and irresponsible, and when it goes as far as the intense harassment and vilification of the alleged victims, criminally malicious.

I have no time whatsoever for Assange, who seems to me to be a serial egotist basking in liberal hero worship. However, I am not going to make the leap from that to accusing him of being a rapist. That's the difference.

[hibsbollah]

So he's guilty then?

Hold on. You've quoted me leaving out the fairly important prefix i inserted 'if they are telling the truth'. A bit of a cheeky bit of misrepresentation there.

[bighairyfaeleith]

And if he's found guilty, then two victims of sexual crimes have been mercilessly harassed by self-styled libertarians.

Surely the point is that nobody knows either way. However, one group of people has automatically assumed not only that Assange is innocent, but that his accusers have fabricated the incident, probably at the behest of the US. They have no evidence whatsoever to support this assumption, but are making it on the basis that Assange shares their political agenda. This is stupid and irresponsible, and when it goes as far as the intense harassment and vilification of the alleged victims, criminally malicious.

I have no time whatsoever for Assange, who seems to me to be a serial egotist basking in liberal hero worship. However, I am not going to make the leap from that to accusing him of being a rapist. That's the difference.

Your right no one knows either way, however I don't think that the conspiracy theory's are without a little foundation in this case.

I don't agree with harassing victims of rape, however I also don't agree with women fabricating rape claims.

I don't agree that someone guilty of rape should walk free, however I also don't agree that someone should be convicted of rape and tarred with a very dirty brush just to suit a political agenda.

So your right, nobody knows the truth yet, however whatever the truth is it's not going to make pleasant reading either way once it finally comes out.

[bighairyfaeleith]

New site due to launch in coming months calls openleaks. People formerly involved with wikileaks

[Betty Boop]

Wikileaks online documentary.

http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1

[Sylar]

This big bad machine of US foreign policy has expanded beyond Assange.

CLEARLY they want this guy extradited so they can treat him as a terrorist for subjecting masses of people to awful music.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-11990845

How very dare they :grr:

[bighairyfaeleith]

This big bad machine of US foreign policy has expanded beyond Assange.

CLEARLY they want this guy extradited so they can treat him as a terrorist for subjecting masses of people to awful music.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-11990845

How very dare they :grr:

TBF I would back the MAN if they got that fanny put down, is music seriously offends me:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Apparently it was the British Prosecution Service that opposed Assange's bail and not Sweden. Someone's telling porkies !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/15/julian-assange-bail-decision-uk

[steakbake]

Apparently it was the British Prosecution Service that opposed Assange's bail and not Sweden. Someone's telling porkies !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/15/julian-assange-bail-decision-uk

BBC this morning were quoting the CPS as saying that they had been requested by an overseas government to oppose bail. The spokesperson did not confirm that this was the Swedish government. And now we read that Sweden didn't oppose bail. So who might that leave, then...?

[khib70]

Apparently it was the British Prosecution Service that opposed Assange's bail and not Sweden. Someone's telling porkies !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/15/julian-assange-bail-decision-uk

http://dailymash.shotdeadinthehead.com/product_view.aspx?pid=1573

:greengrin:devil:

[Betty Boop]

http://dailymash.shotdeadinthehead.com/product_view.aspx?pid=1573

:greengrin:devil:

He has been granted bail.

[khib70]

He has been granted bail.
Just a joke BB! Unlike some, I make no presumption about his guilt or innocence. And I don't see any reason why he shouldn't get bail. Whatever he has or hasn't done, he's hardly Jack the Ripper.

[Betty Boop]

Just a joke BB! Unlike some, I make no presumption about his guilt or innocence. And I don't see any reason why he shouldn't get bail. Whatever he has or hasn't done, he's hardly Jack the Ripper.

Fair enough ! :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

The level of doubt about the case against him is really quite unsettling. Why on earth does anyone even feel the need to speculate and why do people need to defend him in this case as a way of defending wikileaks? There's absolutely no need to confuse the two; he may well be proven innocent and it may prove there were dodgy dealings in the case against him but you can't make any sort of judgement when you're operating from a purely a priori position. It's a huge mistake from Loach, Pilger et. al. to back him whole-heartedly even if they're eventually proven 'right'.

[bighairyfaeleith]

The level of doubt about the case against him is really quite unsettling. Why on earth does anyone even feel the need to speculate and why do people need to defend him in this case as a way of defending wikileaks? There's absolutely no need to confuse the two; he may well be proven innocent and it may prove there were dodgy dealings in the case against him but you can't make any sort of judgement when you're operating from a purely a priori position. It's a huge mistake from Loach, Pilger et. al. to back him whole-heartedly even if they're eventually proven 'right'.

I don't understand, if you believe that assange is in jail because people want him there because of wikileaks and that the rape charge is just a front, then why wouldn't you defend him strongly here?

I'm still not quite sure where I stand but I see enough doubt to make me see it's not clear cut.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I don't understand, if you believe that assange is in jail because people want him there because of wikileaks and that the rape charge is just a front, then why wouldn't you defend him strongly here?

I'm still not quite sure where I stand but I see enough doubt to make me see it's not clear cut.

I didn't say I believed that. I said it may prove he's innocent and it may prove there was something dodgy afoot. It also may prove that he's guilty. I don't know and I see no need to speculate on the matter or denigrate a woman making a claim of rape. I wouldn't do it in different circumstances (and neither would most people - Loach and Pilger included, if they're any proper sort of socialist) so I don't see any need to do it now.

[easty]

I don't understand, if you believe that assange is in jail because people want him there because of wikileaks and that the rape charge is just a front, then why wouldn't you defend him strongly here?

I'm still not quite sure where I stand but I see enough doubt to make me see it's not clear cut.

Is it actually rape he's accused of? I heard it was sexual assault but that could be as little as grabbing someones ass.

[CropleyWasGod]

Is it actually rape he's accused of? I heard it was sexual assault but that could be as little as grabbing someones ass.

It's not rape. According to his lawyer, even if found guilty, he is unlikely to be jailed.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Is it actually rape he's accused of? I heard it was sexual assault but that could be as little as grabbing someones ass.


It's not rape. According to his lawyer, even if found guilty, he is unlikely to be jailed.

Two of the four allegations, that he had sex with one woman without a condom while she was asleep and that he used his body weight to 'coerce' another - the main plaintiff, would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Is it actually rape he's accused of? I heard it was sexual assault but that could be as little as grabbing someones ass.

no I think you might be right, don't think it was actually rape but sexual assault which is quite a wide term in sweden and covers a lot of stuff.

[bighairyfaeleith]

He is on newsnight right now.

[sleeping giant]

He is on newsnight right now.

Michael Moore saying it wasnt rape !! Something about a broken condom during consensual sex.

Can't be right :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

Michael Moore saying it wasnt rape !! Something about a broken condom during consensual sex.

Can't be right :confused:

Wouldn't surprise me, if it's true. Sweden are well known for their "feminist" laws. I use the word in quotations as many women I know, who claim to be feminists, see Sweden as being anti-feminist, or Feminazi, in many ways.

Interestingly, as I understand it, the assault case was not being pushed by the first complainer until a (female) prosecutor got hold of it.

[easty]

Wouldn't surprise me, if it's true. Sweden are well known for their "feminist" laws. I use the word in quotations as many women I know, who claim to be feminists, see Sweden as being anti-feminist, or Feminazi, in many ways.

Interestingly, as I understand it, the assault case was not being pushed by the first complainer until a (female) prosecutor got hold of it.

I hadn't heard what the actual crime was, other than it wasn't rape. I had, though, heard about the point in bold.:grr:

[marinello59]

Why don't they just make being a smug looking self serving ****** a crime and bang him up for that? Or make him Prime Minister.

[LiverpoolHibs]

no I think you might be right, don't think it was actually rape but sexual assault which is quite a wide term in sweden and covers a lot of stuff.


Michael Moore saying it wasnt rape !! Something about a broken condom during consensual sex.

Can't be right :confused:


Wouldn't surprise me, if it's true. Sweden are well known for their "feminist" laws. I use the word in quotations as many women I know, who claim to be feminists, see Sweden as being anti-feminist, or Feminazi, in many ways.

Interestingly, as I understand it, the assault case was not being pushed by the first complainer until a (female) prosecutor got hold of it.


I hadn't heard what the actual crime was, other than it wasn't rape. I had, though, heard about the point in bold.:grr:

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.

[easty]

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.

That's baws. It's not because he's behind Wikileaks I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's the fact that there didn't seem to be a case to answer for until Wikileaks started to properly some countries (cough America cough...)

Assange and Wikileaks were in the news/public eye for a while before it came out about these rape allegations. That were then dropped!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7957882/Rape-claim-against-Wikileaks-founder-Julian-Assange-withdrawn.html

And anyway shouldn't it be innocent until proven guilty? Seems often that doesn't count when rape claims are placed.

[bighairyfaeleith]

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.

Nobody is giving anyone a pass on rape!!

You do talk some utter nonsense at times.

[LiverpoolHibs]

That's baws. It's not because he's behind Wikileaks I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's the fact that there didn't seem to be a case to answer for until Wikileaks started to properly some countries (cough America cough...)

You need to clarify this. At what point did he start to properly affect the U.S.? The most recent series of publications? The prosecution case was opened in late August and withdrawn by the chief prosecutor a couple of weeks later. This was appealed by the claimants lawyer and the case was re-opened on 1st September and has been being processed since. This is long before the most recent releases.


Assange and Wikileaks were in the news/public eye for a while before it came out about these rape allegations. That were then dropped!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7957882/Rape-claim-against-Wikileaks-founder-Julian-Assange-withdrawn.html

And anyway shouldn't it be innocent until proven guilty? Seems often that doesn't count when rape claims are placed.

That's exactly what it should be, yes. But there are vast swathes of people claiming that there is no case to be answered and that he will be innocent even if proven guilty. See this letter (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/10/support-for-julian-assange-wikileaks) in the Guardian signed by a number of people who I admire and respect calling for, "his immediate release [and] the dropping of all charges". It's absolute ****ing madness.

[khib70]

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.
I don't get the chance to say this very often LH, so I'll grab this one with both hands.

You are 100% right about this. I find some of the things said in defence of Assange - and by definition having a go at the alleged victims - very disturbing. The idea that the case was only proceeded with when it was handled by a female prosecutor (what? they're letting women prosecute now!!!) is worthy of the Daily Mail at its considerable worst.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Nobody is giving anyone a pass on rape!!

You do talk some utter nonsense at times.

I'm not saying you or anyone else on here is (although I'm not sure why, after I posted some details of the case, people continued to suggest that the prosecution was just over a condom breaking), but there - undeniably - are people who are, see the Guardian letter linked to above.

[Betty Boop]

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.

He hasn't been charged with anything yet, he is only wanted for questioning.
It is interesting to read Katrin Axelsson from Women Against Rape's view on the story.

Many women in both Sweden and Britain will wonder at the unusual zeal with which Julian Assange is being pursued for rape allegations (Report, 8 December). Women in Sweden don’t fare better than we do in Britain when it comes to rape. Though Sweden has the highest per capita number of reported rapes in Europe and these have quadrupled in the last 20 years, conviction rates have decreased. On 23 April 2010 Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs-Posten that “up to 90% of all reported rapes never get to court. In 2006 six people were convicted of rape though almost 4,000 people were reported”. They endorsed Amnesty International’s call for an independent inquiry to examine the rape cases that had been closed and the quality of the original investigations.


Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine. For two years we have been supporting a woman who suffered rape and domestic violence from a man previously convicted after attempting to murder an ex-partner and her children – he was granted bail while police investigated.

There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

Katrin Axelsson
Women Against Rape

http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang

[LiverpoolHibs]

He hasn't been charged with anything yet, he is only wanted for questioning.

Apologies, I meant 'charge' in a non-legal sense but it was a poor choice considering.


It is interesting to read Katrin Axelsson from Women Against Rape's view on the story.

Many women in both Sweden and Britain will wonder at the unusual zeal with which Julian Assange is being pursued for rape allegations (Report, 8 December). Women in Sweden don’t fare better than we do in Britain when it comes to rape. Though Sweden has the highest per capita number of reported rapes in Europe and these have quadrupled in the last 20 years, conviction rates have decreased. On 23 April 2010 Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs-Posten that “up to 90% of all reported rapes never get to court. In 2006 six people were convicted of rape though almost 4,000 people were reported”. They endorsed Amnesty International’s call for an independent inquiry to examine the rape cases that had been closed and the quality of the original investigations.


Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine. For two years we have been supporting a woman who suffered rape and domestic violence from a man previously convicted after attempting to murder an ex-partner and her children – he was granted bail while police investigated.

There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

Katrin Axelsson
Women Against Rape

http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang

Well firstly, is it being pursued with unusual zeal or does it just appear like that given the blanket media coverage? That's a genuine question, I don't know.

I think most people taking the line I am will be well aware of how (pseudo) women's rights have often been a very successful tool for imperialists, but the point I keep making is not that he's definitely guilty or that it's impossible for there to be some dodgy dealings but that it's incredibly stupid to make a snap judgement on the matter from an a priori position. Even if the case does turn out to be a Mata Hari-esque stitch up refusing to get drawn into speculation over the women's claims would still have been the correct stance to take.

[khib70]

He hasn't been charged with anything yet, he is only wanted for questioning.
It is interesting to read Katrin Axelsson from Women Against Rape's view on the story.

Many women in both Sweden and Britain will wonder at the unusual zeal with which Julian Assange is being pursued for rape allegations (Report, 8 December). Women in Sweden don’t fare better than we do in Britain when it comes to rape. Though Sweden has the highest per capita number of reported rapes in Europe and these have quadrupled in the last 20 years, conviction rates have decreased. On 23 April 2010 Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs-Posten that “up to 90% of all reported rapes never get to court. In 2006 six people were convicted of rape though almost 4,000 people were reported”. They endorsed Amnesty International’s call for an independent inquiry to examine the rape cases that had been closed and the quality of the original investigations.


Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine. For two years we have been supporting a woman who suffered rape and domestic violence from a man previously convicted after attempting to murder an ex-partner and her children – he was granted bail while police investigated.

There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

Katrin Axelsson
Women Against Rape

http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang
Comparing Assange with the victims of lynchings? Jesus, how wrong-headed can people be.? This article is hyperbolic nonsense and a perfect example of the kind of ad hominem garbage which has been wheeled out recently in defence of Julian Assange.

[Woody1985]

The four charges against him are, (including the two I mentioned above):

1. Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.

4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

The first and last charges would be prosecuted as rape allegations in Britain as well as Sweden. Michael Moore doesn't know what he's talking about. It genuinely baffles me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass on rape allegations just because he's behind wikileaks.

And when you have a legal system that actually goes some way to shift power to an equal footing in such cases described as 'Feminazi' there are real problems.


You need to clarify this. At what point did he start to properly affect the U.S.? The most recent series of publications? The prosecution case was opened in late August and withdrawn by the chief prosecutor a couple of weeks later. This was appealed by the claimants lawyer and the case was re-opened on 1st September and has been being processed since. This is long before the most recent releases.



That's exactly what it should be, yes. But there are vast swathes of people claiming that there is no case to be answered and that he will be innocent even if proven guilty. See this letter (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/10/support-for-julian-assange-wikileaks) in the Guardian signed by a number of people who I admire and respect calling for, "his immediate release [and] the dropping of all charges". It's absolute ****ing madness.

I was going to post last night but was on the mobile (relating to your posts yesterday) so didn't bother but I completely agree with LiverpoolHibs.

I know you're not America's number one fan so I was pleasently surprised when I read your objective thoughts on the matter.

[Betty Boop]

Apologies, I meant 'charge' in a non-legal sense but it was a poor choice considering.



Well firstly, is it being pursued with unusual zeal or does it just appear like that given the blanket media coverage? That's a genuine question, I don't know.

I think most people taking the line I am will be well aware of how (pseudo) women's rights have often been a very successful tool for imperialists, but the point I keep making is not that he's definitely guilty or that it's impossible for there to be some dodgy dealings but that it's incredibly stupid to make a snap judgement on the matter from an a priori position. Even if the case does turn out to be a Mata Hari-esque stitch up refusing to get drawn into speculation over the women's claims would still have been the correct stance to take.

£250,000 surety for bail, tagged, reporting to the police station between 2 and 5 every day, and to a different station over Xmas as the usual one will be closed ? I'm no legal expert, but that seems well over the top to me.

[hibsbollah]

But there are vast swathes of people claiming that there is no case to be answered and that he will be innocent even if proven guilty. See this letter (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/10/support-for-julian-assange-wikileaks) in the Guardian signed by a number of people who I admire and respect calling for, "his immediate release [and] the dropping of all charges". It's absolute ****ing madness.


:agree: I was absolutely raging when I read that. I am patiently waiting for some sense to break out amongst the self-appointed spokesmen of the libertarian left, because this is just getting depressing. Perhaps Noam Chomsky is now going to intervene in the Sheridan case?

[RyeSloan]

I don't get the chance to say this very often LH, so I'll grab this one with both hands.

You are 100% right about this. I find some of the things said in defence of Assange - and by definition having a go at the alleged victims - very disturbing. The idea that the case was only proceeded with when it was handled by a female prosecutor (what? they're letting women prosecute now!!!) is worthy of the Daily Mail at its considerable worst.

Weird isn't it! :greengrin

FWIW I too find this immedite defence of someone because of who they are (or what they have done) very strange.

Yes the charges might be trumped up

Yes it might be all America's doing

But the key here is MIGHT. I don't think any of those demanding his immediate freedom have any idea what the truth in these allegations is yet...I find it strange that Sweden would be so easily persuaded to do the USA's dirty work here so I think people should take a step back, let the current legal procedings take their course and then make their judgement.

I also think tougher than normal bail conditions might well be expected considering the profile of the case and the person...he will have many friends as well as enemies so simply cannot be considered in the same way as a normal Joe Bloggs.

[Betty Boop]

Just a wee reminder, 'The War You Don't See' on STV at 10-15.

[khib70]

Just a wee reminder, 'The War You Don't See' on STV at 10-15.
Didn't see it :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Didn't see it :greengrin

:greengrin

[Woody1985]

What did you think of it. I only caught about ten minutes in the middle. What I did see was pretty obvious stuff such as... people don't relate to hearing about people dying in another country and aren't emotionally attached. No **** Sherlock. It sort of came across as you're a bad person for not feeling bad i.e. patronising. I appreciate that was only a small section though.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12564865

Assange loses his appeal against deportation to Sweden. Even Geoffrey Robinson couldnt persuade them.

[khib70]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12564865

Assange loses his appeal against deportation to Sweden. Even Geoffrey Robinson couldnt persuade them.
Fair enough. If he's innocent, nothing to fear. It's the first time I've heard Sweden quoted as a place where you can't get a fair trial.

I've no idea if the whining egotist is guilty or not, but due process will find out. Cue more outrage from Jemima Khan, George Galloway, Bono etc:rolleyes:

[marinello59]

Fair enough. If he's innocent, nothing to fear. It's the first time I've heard Sweden quoted as a place where you can't get a fair trial.

I've no idea if the whining egotist is guilty or not, but due process will find out. Cue more outrage from Jemima Khan, George Galloway, Bono etc:rolleyes:

:greengrin Perfect description.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I think he looks guilty:greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

Latest message from Julian Assange (starts about 3:30):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWU6tVxzO1I