immigration cap

[hibeeliam]

is it just me, or is this orginised racism? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11816979

[Phil D. Rolls]

is it just me, or is this orginised racism? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11816979

I'm not against a degree of control over the number of people coming into the country. If you have one group of people outnumbering another in a short period of time it can lead to social tension.

[Sylar]

is it just me, or is this orginised racism? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11816979

Which race is being inconvenienced by it?

We only have so many resources/jobs/homes etc available in the UK and we can't put limits on migration from Europe, so the only feasible option is to limit the numbers coming from outwith the EEA.

I'm by no means a Tory, but I don't disagree with this move.

[easty]

I don't know the figures but as this only concerns non-EU immigration then it's only a drop in the ocean in terms of the number of people coming to live in the country isn't it?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't know the figures but as this only concerns non-EU immigration then it's only a drop in the ocean in terms of the number of people coming to live in the country isn't it?

Yes, but I don't think we can complain about freedom of movement within the EU. After all, we take advantage of it in places like the South of Spain.

[steakbake]

In theory, a cap is a sensible idea. I don't think it is racist because it applies to any non-EU national regardless of race or ethnicity.

[RyeSloan]

In theory, a cap is a sensible idea. I don't think it is racist because it applies to any non-EU national regardless of race or ethnicity.

In theory, a cap is far from a sensible idea. Limiting the supply of high end skilled labour is not a sensible approach to managing any economy or country.

Thankfully it is a bit of a fudge with inter company transfers pretty much allowed so this should limit any impact.

I certianly wouldn't call it racist in the common understanding of it but it is discriminatory....however peoples rights are often dependent on the country of origin so this is no different.

[easty]

In theory, a cap is far from a sensible idea. Limiting the supply of high end skilled labour is not a sensible approach to managing any economy or country.

Thankfully it is a bit of a fudge with inter company transfers pretty much allowed so this should limit any impact.

I certianly wouldn't call it racist in the common understanding of it but it is discriminatory....however peoples rights are often dependent on the country of origin so this is no different.

I agree, what it will do though is serve as something for all the "the immigrants are stealing our jobs" brigades to be happy about, all they'll see is the headline as they skip past that page in The Sun/The Star to read about how Jordans marriage is doing.

[Leicester Fan]

If you listen to the experts views on the news the rules are so loose that they will hardly make any difference at all.

[Sir David Gray]

Racist? I've heard it all now. :bitchy:

This is long overdue and I'm quite sure that if you were living in some parts of England, particularly certain areas of London, you wouldn't be thinking it was a racist policy.

We have a right to decide who comes in to this country and, in my opinion, over the past 10 years or so, the issue surrounding immigration has been completely neglected by the Labour government. You only need to cast your mind back to the election campaign in April/May, to know what Labour's real attitude was towards immigration, when Gordon Brown was caught describing a staunch Labour voter as a "bigoted woman" just because she dared to ask Brown about immigration.

There are now many schools in England where there are literally dozens of different languages spoken by the pupils and hardly any of them speak English fluently, if at all. That cannot be right for a start and must be a real nightmare for the teachers. The open door policy that we had before caused a great strain on jobs, housing and medical care for the local people and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but we need to look after our own people before we worry about anybody else. If England was an independent nation, it would have one of the highest population densities in the world.

Although it's certainly a start, as far as I'm concerned, these new measures don't actually go far enough. Thanks to our membership of the European Union, there is absolutely nothing that we can do about the thousands of migrants who come here from Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular. In my mind at least, I don't care if you're from Italy or India, a foreign national is a foreign national and if you want to live or work here, the same process should be followed regardless of which country you come from.

[Phil D. Rolls]

When you think about it, the whole concept of international borders is racist, in that one group of people have laid a claim on a part of the planet.

[Speedy]

Racist? I've heard it all now. :bitchy:

This is long overdue and I'm quite sure that if you were living in some parts of England, particularly certain areas of London, you wouldn't be thinking it was a racist policy.

We have a right to decide who comes in to this country and, in my opinion, over the past 10 years or so, the issue surrounding immigration has been completely neglected by the Labour government. You only need to cast your mind back to the election campaign in April/May, to know what Labour's real attitude was towards immigration, when Gordon Brown was caught describing a staunch Labour voter as a "bigoted woman" just because she dared to ask Brown about immigration.

There are now many schools in England where there are literally dozens of different languages spoken by the pupils and hardly any of them speak English fluently, if at all. That cannot be right for a start and must be a real nightmare for the teachers. The open door policy that we had before caused a great strain on jobs, housing and medical care for the local people and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but we need to look after our own people before we worry about anybody else. If England was an independent nation, it would have one of the highest population densities in the world.

Although it's certainly a start, as far as I'm concerned, these new measures don't actually go far enough. Thanks to our membership of the European Union, there is absolutely nothing that we can do about the thousands of migrants who come here from Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular. In my mind at least, I don't care if you're from Italy or India, a foreign national is a foreign national and if you want to live or work here, the same process should be followed regardless of which country you come from.

She did come across as 'bigoted' imo. She didn't simply "ask Brown about Immigration". She was banging on about people being on the dole and then went directly on to talking about immigrants and said "all these Eastern Europeans coming in, where are they flocking from?" She was being derogotary about people based on the country they were from and she had nothing to back up the rubbish she was saying.

[hibsbollah]

It reveals a contradiction within the Tory party between the 'send 'em home' populists and the neo-liberal 'free trade' ideologues. If you want access to emerging Indian, Chinese and Brazilian markets for UK companies, you'd better have a good reason why skilled people from these emerging countries shouldnt be able to work over here and add value to the British economy as well.

Global capitalism-you're either for it or against it:greengrin

[steakbake]

Racist? I've heard it all now. :bitchy:

This is long overdue and I'm quite sure that if you were living in some parts of England, particularly certain areas of London, you wouldn't be thinking it was a racist policy.

We have a right to decide who comes in to this country and, in my opinion, over the past 10 years or so, the issue surrounding immigration has been completely neglected by the Labour government. You only need to cast your mind back to the election campaign in April/May, to know what Labour's real attitude was towards immigration, when Gordon Brown was caught describing a staunch Labour voter as a "bigoted woman" just because she dared to ask Brown about immigration.

There are now many schools in England where there are literally dozens of different languages spoken by the pupils and hardly any of them speak English fluently, if at all. That cannot be right for a start and must be a real nightmare for the teachers. The open door policy that we had before caused a great strain on jobs, housing and medical care for the local people and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but we need to look after our own people before we worry about anybody else. If England was an independent nation, it would have one of the highest population densities in the world.

Although it's certainly a start, as far as I'm concerned, these new measures don't actually go far enough. Thanks to our membership of the European Union, there is absolutely nothing that we can do about the thousands of migrants who come here from Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular. In my mind at least, I don't care if you're from Italy or India, a foreign national is a foreign national and if you want to live or work here, the same process should be followed regardless of which country you come from.

Falkirk, I love it when you go on a rant :grr: about one of your pet subjects and immigration is one of those.

I would take time to respond respond, rebut and try and convince you that many hard-liners on immigration quite simply don't know what they are talking about and for them it boils down to them ("foreigners") and us ("the hard-done-to indigenous Brits").

I think it's better to sit back and marvel at your post because I really don't feel that a reply is somehow needed!

[Hibs Class]

When you think about it, the whole concept of international borders is racist, in that one group of people have laid a claim on a part of the planet.


:agree: Imagine all the people living life in peace

[Dashing Bob S]

All border controls are racist. In global economy there should be no need to prevent people who want it from going where the work is in order to get it.

If people want to come into this country to do jobs nobody else wants to do, then why stop them? Just cut benefits of those who can't or won't work.

The global problem is not migration but overpopulation - people have to be educated/coerced by lack of state support to stop breeding us to extinction.

[steakbake]

Well, the mere existence of "borders" creates migration but it is necessary to have immigration laws as a result. I agree that the concept of it is ridiculous but the reality of the situation as it stands is that we have arbitrary borders.

Where I agree with a cap is that it is a mechanism in which you define the number of people who come in to a country in a particular capacity: it's not open ended.

I'm also supportive of the points based system because for too long, people could be refused for a visa if the immigration officer just didn't like the look of them - seriously, that is how it genuinely used to work in some places because it was based on the balance of probabilities and only the individual visa officer knows how he/she stacked those probabilities up for each case.

Under points based, while there are problems, it is a far more transparent system in which applicants know what they have to show before they apply. The natural conclusion of a points based system is to define how many visas are available in each particular capacity.

Many of the other routes - such as tourists, spouses of UK/EEA nationals etc - are outside of the points based system and are not targeted by the cap. The capped routes are all entirely for business or study purposes. So if a Brazilian national wanted to come and discuss business in the UK, they could do so without a visa having to be arranged prior to leaving Brazil and would come as a business visitor. Visa nationals, such as India, China etc - would have to apply before they leave. Even within the current system, there are other flexibilities and risk differentials between nationalities.

[Phil D. Rolls]

All border controls are racist. In global economy there should be no need to prevent people who want it from going where the work is in order to get it.

If people want to come into this country to do jobs nobody else wants to do, then why stop them? Just cut benefits of those who can't or won't work.

The global problem is not migration but overpopulation - people have to be educated/coerced by lack of state support to stop breeding us to extinction.

I think problems can follow if too much immigration happens at once. It can put strain on the country's infrastructure, and leave people with a perception of being unfairly treated.

To me it's about maturity for the "indigenous" culture, seeing that being some place before someone else doesn't give you the right to call the shots forever. People have to work together and the creation of silohs in the population isn't the ideal way to run a country.

For that reason, I regrettably think that there has to be some control over immigration. You just have to listen to the number of ignorant people who claim Poles have taken their jobs to realise there is a proportion of the population who are very uneasy about change.

Of course, there is an argument that such people will never be happy with their lot and will always seek out scapegoats for their own personal failings.

Can I add that I personally enjoy working with people who are new to this country. They bring a fresh and interesting perspective on how we do things.

[duncs]

What is also missing from this debate, is the Scottish dimension. This new policy is set out to serve a problem in the South East of England. There is no regional considerations for places such as Scotland, Wales and the North of England where immigration should be encouraged, even the guy from the Scottish Chamber of Commerce was arguing for it. Sadly, as much of the nation is SE England focused, this policy will come to fruition. The reality for Universities in the UK could be quite frightening, as they struggled with the Tier 4 points based system when it was introduced. Basically, instead of regulating these sham unis and colleges that allowed loads of students from Africa and Asia to come in under a pretence of studying, they went after all students - much to the detriment of many of the UK's fine institutions who just weren't set up to deal with the UKBA.

[heretoday]

Surely it depends on the skills required by the country. If they are unobtainable here or in Europe then seek them elsewhere.

However, I don't think non-EU folk should be brought in to do "the jobs that our people refuse to do" e.g. working in care homes.

Local people should be trained to do these jobs and think themselves lucky to have them. Care homes have been in the news today and, hopefully, there will be an improvement in standards and working conditions.

[greenlex]

What's gonna happen in the restraint business? This is a multiple billion pound industry in the UK. There won't be many Indian chefs or Chinese Chefs earning £40k.
I am sure I read somewhere that there are more employees in Indian restaraunt in this country than there are employees in the coal and steel industries combined. Who'd a thunk it. I think the restaraut industry should be exempt. We need good Curry houses.

[marinello59]

What's gonna happen in the restraint business? This is a multiple billion pound industry in the UK. There won't be many Indian chefs or Chinese Chefs earning £40k.
I am sure I read somewhere that there are more employees in Indian restaraunt in this country than there are employees in the coal and steel industries combined. Who'd a thunk it. I think the restaraut industry should be exempt. We need good Curry houses.

Freudian slip? :greengrin

[Beefster]

I'd rather not have a cap but be in the situation everyone that wants to move into the country has to prove that their skills are needed, that their skills aren't in the country already and/or that they'll be net contributing to the economy.

I heard some businessman on TV yesterday complaining because it means that Indian/Chinese etc restaurants won't be able to bring in wait[ers]/[resses] to the country. A classic example of jobs that doesn't need anyone particularly skilled to do it.

With free movement within the EU though, the government's proposals are like worrying about a leaking window when the bath is running over.

I'd love to hear the OP's justification of why he thinks it is racism though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Surely it depends on the skills required by the country. If they are unobtainable here or in Europe then seek them elsewhere.

However, I don't think non-EU folk should be brought in to do "the jobs that our people refuse to do" e.g. working in care homes.

Local people should be trained to do these jobs and think themselves lucky to have them. Care homes have been in the news today and, hopefully, there will be an improvement in standards and working conditions.

I don't think we have any right to force someone to work in a care home. What we do have the right to do is make working more attractive than benefits.

I used to do three or four shifts a month in a very good care home in Dunfermline. It was rotten work, but added to my bursary I was still bringing in more than some of the full time staff. That can't be right.

Private employers should be made to match what the NHS pays and that may make it more attractive to people.

Have you got a link to the story, as a lot of these articles paint a much bleaker picture of conditions in homes, and that alarms people unecessarily. I remember a piece in the EEN a couple of years back that tried to be sensationalist and was completely laughed out of court by the care commission.

[heretoday]

I don't think we have any right to force someone to work in a care home. What we do have the right to do is make working more attractive than benefits.

I used to do three or four shifts a month in a very good care home in Dunfermline. It was rotten work, but added to my bursary I was still bringing in more than some of the full time staff. That can't be right.

Private employers should be made to match what the NHS pays and that may make it more attractive to people.

Have you got a link to the story, as a lot of these articles paint a much bleaker picture of conditions in homes, and that alarms people unecessarily. I remember a piece in the EEN a couple of years back that tried to be sensationalist and was completely laughed out of court by the care commission.

I can't do links on here for some reason which I've forgotten but the BBC radios 4 and 5 had stuff on yesterday. The programmes that stood out were Nicky Campbell's phone-in on FiveLive at 9.00 and File on Four at 20.00 on which someone from the Care Quality Commission was given a right grilling. BBC IPlayer has got both.

I agree that there are many scare stories. My mum was in NHS geriatric care for some years after a massive stroke. She was lucky (in a sense) and received mostly first-class care. Of course we had the comfort of knowing that a proper complaints structure was in place if required. My wife's dad, however, was not so fortunate. He ended up paying £600 a week in a private care home which was nicely decorated but otherwise had the warmth of a railway waiting room staffed by poorly paid and trained youngsters who barely spoke English.

[Leicester Fan]

My sister is a manager of a private care home and she says she'd rather employ Filipinos than native English because they work harder, turn up for work and have a better attitude.When my grandma was dying in an NHS hospital I have to say the attitude of the , mainly English, staff was very similar.

There seem to be an attitude of entitlement rather than responsibility amongst our native population that makes many unemployable. The only solution that I can see is to make it easier to sack lazy and incompetent people and reduce welfare to make idleness less palatable. How successful this would be I'm not sure but the policies of the last 40 years have been a disaster, it's got to be worth a try.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I can't do links on here for some reason which I've forgotten but the BBC radios 4 and 5 had stuff on yesterday. The programmes that stood out were Nicky Campbell's phone-in on FiveLive at 9.00 and File on Four at 20.00 on which someone from the Care Quality Commission was given a right grilling. BBC IPlayer has got both.

I agree that there are many scare stories. My mum was in NHS geriatric care for some years after a massive stroke. She was lucky (in a sense) and received mostly first-class care. Of course we had the comfort of knowing that a proper complaints structure was in place if required. My wife's dad, however, was not so fortunate. He ended up paying £600 a week in a private care home which was nicely decorated but otherwise had the warmth of a railway waiting room staffed by poorly paid and trained youngsters who barely spoke English.

Sorry to hear that your dad got a bad deal. It makes me angry, and I accept there are some poor homes. There are certain companies which are notorious for the way they exploit the system.


My sister is a manager of a private care home and she says she'd rather employ Filipinos than native English because they work harder, turn up for work and have a better attitude.When my grandma was dying in an NHS hospital I have to say the attitude of the , mainly English, staff was very similar.

There seem to be an attitude of entitlement rather than responsibility amongst our native population that makes many unemployable. The only solution that I can see is to make it easier to sack lazy and incompetent people and reduce welfare to make idleness less palatable. How successful this would be I'm not sure but the policies of the last 40 years have been a disaster, it's got to be worth a try.

I would agree with your comment about Filipino staff. I have found them to be hard working, well educated, and most of all cheery and positive. I also agree with your comment about attitudes of our native population. Ironically I come across most negativity and whingeing in the NHS care of the elderly, where staff don't do half the work that would be required in the private sector.

Maybe there's a lesson for the private companies though. Focus on a realistic profit, rather than maximising it. That way you aren't constantly on the look out for staff and you don't burn out the ones you have. The real beneficiary is the resident/patient who has consistent care.

[heretoday]

I think on the whole the performance of staff and the general atmosphere of a home stems from the top.

Even in the NHS wards we encountered staff who were surly and lazy. And in the private home I mentioned there were some good and caring people who were doing their best.

In all situations, however, we were most comforted when a senior nurse or manager came out and spoke to us and showed a personal interest in our relative's case.

It's a worry though, especially as one gets older oneself! The negative stories hit the mark. As someone pointed out, the alleged treatment meted out to some oldies would cause a national scandal if it was going on in a childrens' home.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think on the whole the performance of staff and the general atmosphere of a home stems from the top.

Even in the NHS wards we encountered staff who were surly and lazy. And in the private home I mentioned there were some good and caring people who were doing their best.

In all situations, however, we were most comforted when a senior nurse or manager came out and spoke to us and showed a personal interest in our relative's case.

It's a worry though, especially as one gets older oneself! The negative stories hit the mark. As someone pointed out, the alleged treatment meted out to some oldies would cause a national scandal if it was going on in a childrens' home.

I agree with all of this, especially the bit about getting older!

[Sir David Gray]

Falkirk, I love it when you go on a rant :grr: about one of your pet subjects and immigration is one of those.

I would take time to respond respond, rebut and try and convince you that many hard-liners on immigration quite simply don't know what they are talking about and for them it boils down to them ("foreigners") and us ("the hard-done-to indigenous Brits").

I think it's better to sit back and marvel at your post because I really don't feel that a reply is somehow needed!

I'm pleased I have such an effect on someone. :greengrin

Please feel free to offer a reply to my post. I love having debates with people on one of my "pet subjects".:wink:

[bighairyfaeleith]

Racist? I've heard it all now. :bitchy:

This is long overdue and I'm quite sure that if you were living in some parts of England, particularly certain areas of London, you wouldn't be thinking it was a racist policy.

We have a right to decide who comes in to this country and, in my opinion, over the past 10 years or so, the issue surrounding immigration has been completely neglected by the Labour government. You only need to cast your mind back to the election campaign in April/May, to know what Labour's real attitude was towards immigration, when Gordon Brown was caught describing a staunch Labour voter as a "bigoted woman" just because she dared to ask Brown about immigration.

There are now many schools in England where there are literally dozens of different languages spoken by the pupils and hardly any of them speak English fluently, if at all. That cannot be right for a start and must be a real nightmare for the teachers. The open door policy that we had before caused a great strain on jobs, housing and medical care for the local people and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but we need to look after our own people before we worry about anybody else. If England was an independent nation, it would have one of the highest population densities in the world.

Although it's certainly a start, as far as I'm concerned, these new measures don't actually go far enough. Thanks to our membership of the European Union, there is absolutely nothing that we can do about the thousands of migrants who come here from Europe, and Eastern Europe in particular. In my mind at least, I don't care if you're from Italy or India, a foreign national is a foreign national and if you want to live or work here, the same process should be followed regardless of which country you come from.

Is it not true though that immigration is dropping naturally now that our requirement for labour is declining?

Immigration boomed during the boom years, and just as well it did or we wouldn't have been able to meet our job requirements and it is now dropping off again.

I don't think these measures are racist, but they will certainly appeal to the racist vote.

[Hamish]

She said "all these Eastern Europeans coming in, where are they flocking from?''.

Still the quote of the year for me :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

She said "all these Eastern Europeans coming in, where are they flocking from?''.

Still the quote of the year for me :greengrin

I would have thought the answer was blatantly obvious to all but the most ignorant in our society.

It was interesting to see the follow up to this woman's statement. When people were interviewed it became clear that not everyone in her community shared her concerns. It appears that she wasn't really reflecting public opinion in her area at all.

[Leicester Fan]

I would have thought the answer was blatantly obvious to all but the most ignorant in our society.

It was interesting to see the follow up to this woman's statement. When people were interviewed it became clear that not everyone in her community shared her concerns. It appears that she wasn't really reflecting public opinion in her area at all.

Or people are extremely careful what they say on TV for fear of being labelled racist.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Or people are extremely careful what they say on TV for fear of being labelled racist.

Possibly. :agree:

[HibeeEmma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja6jCCG2c8c&NR=1

[lyonhibs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja6jCCG2c8c&NR=1

He's a bawbag in a lot of ways, but he's bang on the money here.

A quantitative immigration cap is fundamentally flawed.