Referees on strike [Archive] - Page 2

Kaiser1962

23-11-2010, 06:51 AM

This is probably correct but sad that it is. As lies go it was very low level and probably told to back up the linesman, who apparently started this. Its up there with telling the wife her arse dosent look big in those jeans.

I'm sad because the standards we're expecting McDonald to maintain would wipe out most SPL (or anywhere else for that matter) players and managers in a heartbeat if they were to be judged by those principles. There are endless examples of high profile cheating but somehow we always lay it at the door of ref's when, in truth, they are usually the victim of some sort of subterfuge carried out by an expert illusionist.

Incidentally if Celtic (or Lennon) are considering legal action against any action by the SFA then the officials should consider the same. By that I mean when Lennon (or anybody else) goes face to face with an official in a violent manner, or hurls abusive and offensive language at them, they should then call over the nearest copper and make a complaint. Getting silly I know but they cant have it both ways and it would be interesting to see what happened then.

I agree with all of that, except paragraph one.

It's not about being pious or having never told a fib. If a referee's integrity is proven to be in doubt, he's finished.

Referees can't get caught telling lies about their decisions.

He may well ride this incident out, but his career has taken a huge blow and I think he'll quietly go off the radar.

EskbankHibby

23-11-2010, 07:51 AM

Just confirmed on Sky news that SFA looking to use Irish refs as a contingency.

ronaldo7

23-11-2010, 07:51 AM

Sfa saying they'll bring in refs from Ireland. Maybe Celtc will get a token Welshman.

At least the games are going ahead

johnrebus

23-11-2010, 07:58 AM

Irish Refs eh?

The Daily ****** will have a field day with that.

From the North or South?

Catholic or Protestant?

Can just see a ref named Seamus O'Malley taking charge of a game at Ibrox.......,

:bitchy:

blackpoolhibs

23-11-2010, 08:02 AM

Just confirmed on Sky news that SFA looking to use Irish refs as a contingency.

:faf: You couldn't make this up.

Westie1875

23-11-2010, 08:23 AM

:faf: You couldn't make this up.

As long as they're from Northern Ireland I'm all for it, ain't this what they wanted? :devil: :greengrin

RoxburghHibs

23-11-2010, 08:26 AM

:faf: You couldn't make this up.

To be honest, I can't see them being any worse than our refs!

Sylar

23-11-2010, 08:31 AM

EskbankHibby

23-11-2010, 08:32 AM

Do they say the games will go ahead one way or another?

Didn't say mate, i presume the games are now almost definately on as SFA refs would be 1st choice and easy to organise if they come to a late agreement. The Irish refs to be shipped over as replacement if not.

Sky news also just mentioned scandinavian refs so i wonder if they are making it all up! Scandinavian refs for the OF so it wouldn't really matter what school they went to back in Malmo if they made a contentious decision.

Mind you Celtic now have a Swede playing for them and Larsson was Swedish so that wont work as that's obvious bias towards Celtic although Robert Prytz was Swedish which obviously means a natural bias towards Rangers.:grr:

Tasmanian refs, the only solution imo.

blackpoolhibs

23-11-2010, 08:35 AM

As long as they're from Northern Ireland I'm all for it, ain't this what they wanted? :devil: :greengrin

:agree::wink:

To be honest, I can't see them being any worse than our refs!

I'd imagine they wont be any better or worse than our ref's. Although i wonder if they will tell us what team they support, or what school they went to.

If they could have picked any country in the world to get the ref's from, Ireland should have been the last on that list.Are the SFA aware of WHAT 99% of the problems are in the Scottish game?:confused:

matty_f

23-11-2010, 09:10 AM

Fully supportive of their decision to stand up for themselves and voice their concerns about how referees are viewed in this country. I actually hoped 2 things would have happened as a result:

1) No provision would be in place and all fixtures would have been forced to be cancelled, leading to:

2) All 11 other SPL clubs take legal action against Celtic for loss of earnings, whilst the SFA hammer them for bringing the game into disrepute.

It would also be funny if the SFA referees all refused in unison to ever referee the Tims again, thus forcing the SPL/SFA (whoever books/allocates referees games) to bring in a foreign ref for every Celtic game, and charging them an arm and a leg for the privilege.

It's not just Celtc, though - other teams have lumped in. Jefferies is serving (or has served?) a touchline ban for mouthing off about refereeing at Parkhead, Houston had a go at McDonald for awarding the penalty in the first place, while the Yams have unbelievably questioned the whole integrity of the Scottish game and referees via official statements on their website.

The Yams are as culpable as Celtc in this, IMHO. I hope nobody misses them from their criticism.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 09:19 AM

Didn't say mate, i presume the games are now almost definately on as SFA refs would be 1st choice and easy to organise if they come to a late agreement. The Irish refs to be shipped over as replacement if not.

Sky news also just mentioned scandinavian refs so i wonder if they are making it all up! Scandinavian refs for the OF so it wouldn't really matter what school they went to back in Malmo if they made a contentious decision.

Mind you Celtic now have a Swede playing for them and Larsson was Swedish so that wont work as that's obvious bias towards Celtic although Robert Prytz was Swedish which obviously means a natural bias towards Rangers.:grr:

Tasmanian refs, the only solution imo.

Make no mistake, those knuckle draggers could find the sectarian angle in the Tel Aviv derby. If we get Swedish refs you can expect an analysis to be made of the respective merits of Lutherans and Calvinists.

It's not just Celtc, though - other teams have lumped in. Jefferies is serving (or has served?) a touchline ban for mouthing off about refereeing at Parkhead, Houston had a go at McDonald for awarding the penalty in the first place, while the Yams have unbelievably questioned the whole integrity of the Scottish game and referees via official statements on their website.

The Yams are as culpable as Celtc in this, IMHO. I hope nobody misses them from their criticism.

:agree:

essexhibee

23-11-2010, 10:01 AM

I must admit that hearts rangers game a few years ago that had the linesman who was a member of some Rangers supporters club who made that really horrendous decision against hearts would have tested a saint.
Think that was the same game as the hearts player actually assaulted him.
Think I would have assaulted him too!:agree:

Joke decision! It was Mikoliunus that charged up to him but would hardley call it an assault. Hearts were robbed that night.

Shame. :yawn:

I voted yes for the poll but i think its unfair on the other teams in the league, as after all its the OF who are worst. Did anyone see Neil Lennon squaring up on the news to an official. DISGRACE.

He should be hammered and so should celtic.

DCI Gene Hunt

23-11-2010, 10:31 AM

I wholly support the stance that the Referees have taken here.

When Mad Vlad was going his dinger at refs with conspiracy theories etc. he was hammered - rightfully. So why does a certain wheenging little ginger fanny from a certain hateful edifice of a club aided by a wheenging little cheat of a player and a prat of a politician seem to get away with it?

Let us not forget all the pish that has been going on for the past month was caused by one party - CELTIC.

SFA - get Celtic hammered for this, good and proper, pronto.

The more that lot whinge, the more I hate them.

Perhaps what should happen is the refs refuse to participate in any games involving that Whinging lot.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 11:27 AM

Hibbyradge

23-11-2010, 11:33 AM

Hearts call for increased accountability for referees

31.10.2010

Heart of Midlothian Football Club (Hearts) today called for more accountability for referees.

Board director Sergejus Fedotovas said: "I would not like to comment on any specific situation in the game in Scotland, but I would like to suggest that the refereeing standards need to go up significantly.
"If there is poor performance on the park by players it does not mean that the referee needs to match that level.

"Referees need to come out after the game and comment and explain their decisions. Refereeing is a big part of the game and people want to see high standards, hear the reasons behind decisions and gain clarification. Human error is part of the game, but it should be in minimal proportion.

"There is no place for a high proportion of human error meaning low standards - it can easily be a cover for bias and match fixing.

"If the Scottish FA is interested in showing there is no bias and minimizing the risk of match fixing the organisation needs to continue working to improve refereeing standards, by implementing the best practices available in the world and being innovative to insure that the Scottish game is not a place for reputation damaging situations.

"And there should be no double standards - all clubs need to be treated equally, not just those that dominate the game. I do not remember any other situation where referees have been so strictly cautioned when it involved any other club outside the Old Firm.

"In an era where players, managers and clubs are suspended or fined heavily for their actions on the pitch, it will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of every honest employee and supporter of football clubs around the country that match officials could act as deceptively as has been reported.

"It is time that the Scottish FA implements a proper system of accountability otherwise the integrity of our game will be further diluted by future incidents. How long might it be before attempts by a referee to verbally engineer a situation to suit his own purposes spills into a referee actively engineering situations through actions rather than words? Only a fool would say 'That could never happen'.

"However it is also crucial that our referees are helped in every way possible. In addition to the actual support that a proper system of accountability would provide for them, they should be encouraged to be transparent in their actions.

"When players and managers are interviewed in the minutes after a game, referees should also be given the opportunity to explain decisions to supporters.

"We would also urge the Scottish FA to continue its lobbying in world football for the implementation of video technology. We appreciate this is a wider issue but it has to be adopted in time otherwise the spotlight will remain on the officials as much as the players and managers.

"Until then, honesty amongst our match officials remains paramount to the game. Those officials that fail that basic character trait should realise that the football pitches of Scotland are no place for them. High standards and not double standards - this is what we need to raise the game to a higher level."

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 11:36 AM

Bringing in foreign refs is the beginning of the end for the Scottish league, teams will be forced to play elsewhere, and that can't be what any of them want, er...

HH81

23-11-2010, 11:39 AM

I voted No as I'm selfish and want to see a game when I come up this weekend :greengrin

blackpoolhibs

23-11-2010, 12:08 PM

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/3241243/Celtic-think-world-is-against-them-now-they-have-made-us-all-look-STUPID.html

:top marks

Carheenlea

23-11-2010, 12:30 PM

:agree::wink:

I'd imagine they wont be any better or worse than our ref's. Although i wonder if they will tell us what team they support, or what school they went to.

If they could have picked any country in the world to get the ref's from, Ireland should have been the last on that list.Are the SFA aware of WHAT 99% of the problems are in the Scottish game?:confused:

Don't see any problem there myself. From y experiences the Irish have little or no interest in Scottish Football, and the referees favourite teams will be found in the EPL.
If there was to be an issue about this from the Old Firm, then good, as it will make the pair of them an even bigger laughing stock than they already are.
The Irish refs will be like any other ref, simply going out to officiate to the best of their abilities.

blackpoolhibs

23-11-2010, 12:42 PM

Don't see any problem there myself. From y experiences the Irish have little or no interest in Scottish Football, and the referees favourite teams will be found in the EPL.
If there was to be an issue about this from the Old Firm, then good, as it will make the pair of them an even bigger laughing stock than they already are.
The Irish refs will be like any other ref, simply going out to officiate to the best of their abilities.

Most rational folk would agree with that, but we are dealing with bigots here. Imagine a protestant ref from Belfast gave a softish penalty against celtic? The conspiracy theories would be flying about like nobodies business. Oh wait a minute????:wink:

Speedy

23-11-2010, 01:56 PM

Who is it that is going to pay for these refs? Is it the clubs? If so, how are the lower league clubs expected to deal with this expense?

Sunny1875

23-11-2010, 02:22 PM

Not sure I agree 100% G. Certainly the ginger whinger has been the most vocal and has been backed up by the former MP and the former non league player but they're the tip of the iceberg really. Peter Houston has slated refs recently as has Terry Butcher albeit in a backhanded sort of way. CC had words at half time during the match v Motherwell etc. All Lennon and his cohorts have done is crank up the volume by going public but lets not pretend they're the only ones who criticise referees!

Where it is ok to question a decision during a game, it is another completely to use your position within certain high profile clubs to focus the media's attention on a perceived bias. Let us make no mistake that is the Agenda at Celtic just now. I just wish we at Easter road had been dealt that biased hand over the years then maybe we would have half the trophies the smellies have.

Booked4Being-Ugly

23-11-2010, 02:50 PM

Kaiser1962

23-11-2010, 02:57 PM

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 03:00 PM

Unfortunately, this pitiful episode has played right into the hands of Celtic FC.

They've turned a storm in a tea cup into national news just because Lennon is a wee greetin faced ginger tw@t, who is trying to deflect the blame for being a pash manager.

He will be delighted with this.

Appallingly handled by the SFA and referee's. If they strike for the next round of SPL ties, there is surely no way back for them.

Hopefully rid the Scottish game of biased refereeing for good, great result.

Well done to Celtic, Hearts and all that spoke out against them

GreenPJ

23-11-2010, 03:01 PM

[/B]

Where it is ok to question a decision during a game, it is another completely to use your position within certain high profile clubs to focus the media's attention on a perceived bias. Let us make no mistake that is the Agenda at Celtic just now. I just wish we at Easter road had been dealt that biased hand over the years then maybe we would have half the trophies the smellies have.

So you are admitting there is bias :devil:

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 03:06 PM

So you are admitting there is bias :devil:

I think those that refuse to see this, have very short memories or don't really watch Scottish football.

marinello59

23-11-2010, 03:16 PM

I think those that refuse to see this, have very short memories or don't really watch Scottish football.

I don't see bias and my memory is fine. I have watched a few games as well. I do see incompetence at times but that is a totally different from suggesting refs are dishonest. Seriously, why bother going along to watch football at all if you think that to be the case. I know I wouldn't.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 03:21 PM

I don't see bias and my memory is fine. I have watched a few games as well. I do see incompetence at times but that is a totally different from suggesting refs are dishonest. Seriously, why bother going along to watch football at all if you think that to be the case. I know I wouldn't.

I agree that there is incompetence, I also believe that there are genuine errors in the game too.

I do believe that there is dishonesty in our game, a point just recently proven in fact.

I have taken many oversea's visitors and English people too watching the Hibs, mainly the bigger games. Most of them come away thinkng there is dishonesty in our game.

marinello59

23-11-2010, 03:28 PM

I agree that there is incompetence, I also believe that there are genuine errors in the game too.

I do believe that their is dishonesty in our game, a point just recently proven in fact.

I have taken many oversea's visitors and English people too watching the Hibs, mainly the bigger games. Most of them come away thinkng there is dishonesty in our game.

If you are talking about Dougie Macdonald his actions during the game were honest. (Something Celtic have conveniently forgotten.) His actions afterwards whilst wrong came about as a result of the pressures refs are under. Still wrong though, he should have walked or been sacked.
I have come away from many a game raging at the Refs perceived bias against us then watched it afterwards on TV and realised many more correct calls than wrong ones had been made to the benefit or detriment of both sides.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 03:40 PM

If you are talking about Dougie Macdonald his actions during the game were honest. (Something Celtic have conveniently forgotten.) His actions afterwards whilst wrong came about as a result of the pressures refs are under. Still wrong though, he should have walked or been sacked.
I have come away from many a game raging at the Refs perceived bias against us then watched it afterwards on TV and realised many more correct calls than wrong ones had been made to the benefit or detriment of both sides.

:agree: That too, and that is also a point to consider too.

For the last 21 years I have been of the mind that our game is corrupt, to what level I could not say. As I say I have taken many people from outside of Scotland who think along the same lines as I do.

I have been on the radio a couple of times advocating the use of foreign referee's in Scotland, I will be absolutely delighted if this comes true.

I am not saying that all our referee's are of a questionable reputation, far from it, but the few bad apples tarnish all of their reputations.

I will never change my perception, unless things change. We now may have the catalyst for change and in my view that can only be good for the Scottish game.

I watch a lot of other football, I have never once thought that say the English game was full of referee's that are biased one way or the other. There is far more openess down here though.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 03:49 PM

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 04:18 PM

:agree: That too, and that is also a point to consider too.

For the last 21 years I have been of the mind that our game is corrupt, to what level I could not say. As I say I have taken many people from outside of Scotland who think along the same lines as I do.

Oh well then, a couple of your mates agreeing with your preconceptions obviously seals the point as a fact... :rolleyes:

:I have been on the radio a couple of times advocating the use of foreign referee's in Scotland, I will be absolutely delighted if this comes true.

I am not saying that all our referee's are of a questionable reputation, far from it, but the few bad apples tarnish all of their reputations.

Go on then. which of the refs do you view as corrupt, and on what basis? Serious question.

:

I will never change my perception, unless things change. We now may have the catalyst for change and in my view that can only be good for the Scottish game.

I watch a lot of other football, I have never once thought that say the English game was full of referee's that are biased one way or the other. There is far more openess down here though.

Nowt like an open mind, eh?

I watch a lot of football too, and I've been to plenty games this season alone from the Premiership to Division 2 where the refs have been accused of being cheating northern/southern/London *********s, so I dont know what games you've been watching.

The major difference in the English leagues compared to Scotland is familiarity - you can easily (in the lower leagues in particular), have different referees for every game in a season.

As marinello59 says, if I thought for a nanosecond a referee was actively corrupt, I wouldnt be going to a game. Seriously, what would be the point?

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 04:21 PM

Are we allowed to shout "scab, scab, scab" at the foreign refs, or should we be boycotting the games ourselves? Just have to know so I can remain politically correct.

Thatcher's yer real enemy!

GreenPJ

23-11-2010, 04:24 PM

If we had only had fair play in 1979, we wouldn't be saying it's a 109 years since we won the Scottish Cup. Every other club can tell similar stories,

So if we all think there is a level of dubiety in our game at refereeing and possibly at association level is the current debacle not actually a good thing if a proper review and improvement of standards and governance is achieved?

JimBHibees

23-11-2010, 04:42 PM

Go on then. which of the refs do you view as corrupt, and on what basis? Serious question.

McCurry?

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 04:45 PM

So if we all think there is a level of dubiety in our game at refereeing and possibly at association level is the current debacle not actually a good thing if a proper review and improvement of standards and governance is achieved?

The poll would so far suggest there isnt that belief - I certainly dont think there is. The farcical situation that has arisen due to Celtic, Hearts and others means that "a review and assesment" will only divert resources and focus away from the real issues regarding the game and its long term welfare and development.

Would you prefer to see money, time and effort spent on investigating an entirely fictitious accusation of bias or, say youth development, improvement of grassroot facilities, securing long term sponsorship for the SPL, coach development etc etc. As any review/investigation would find no evidence of bias, what would be the obvious reaction from Mad Vlad and Parkhead? "Cover up!" "Whitewash!", "Conspiracy!" and we start all over again.

With the kind of ridiculous stuff coming out of Lennon, Reid, Romanov, McGhee etc, what business would want there brand being associated with corruption and sectarian bias? All of these guys are fundamentally damaging the game to a serious degree, and for this they - not the refs, not even the SFA - should get hammered and driven out of the game.

HibeeMcGinn1

23-11-2010, 04:51 PM

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 04:53 PM

Oh well then, a couple of your mates agreeing with your preconceptions obviously seals the point as a fact... :rolleyes:

Go on then. which of the refs do you view as corrupt, and on what basis? Serious question.

Nowt like an open mind, eh?

I watch a lot of football too, and I've been to plenty games this season alone from the Premiership to Division 2 where the refs have been accused of being cheating northern/southern/London *********s, so I dont know what games you've been watching.

The major difference in the English leagues compared to Scotland is familiarity - you can easily (in the lower leagues in particular), have different referees for every game in a season.

As marinello59 says, if I thought for a nanosecond a referee was actively corrupt, I wouldnt be going to a game. Seriously, what would be the point?

Apologies, I cant respond or more to the point not sure how to reply to your multi quote parts in the text.

1. I never said mates in any of my emails. I have though taken business associates, friends and also relatives with me to ER. Not everyone of them has mentioned the fact that they thought something was wrong with the refereeing. I thought it would be something worth mentioning as they were comments made to me both during and after matches. Anyway you carry on patronising.

2. The comments I have made are my opinions, I have maintained them for 21 years. You obviously have diferent views, and thats fine.

3. I am highly unlikely to name the referees that I thought have been less than honest on a messageboard, public, privately or whatever. I have however pointed out where in very recent times a referee has lied. Now if he is the only referee that has lied or been economical with the truthfor a hundred odd years, I will stand corrected.

4. I agree with you about the depth of refereeing in England, and therefore therefore a larger spread. The EPL tends to have the same ref's across the games with a few additions and subtractions. We could have the same spread of refs of we did not pick them from Scotland. Calling someone a cheating ******* in the heat of the moment is different from what I am talking about.

All I would be after is an openess in what goes on in our game, what on earth is the matter with that?

1. What team they followed throughout their childhood
2. School attended
3. Explanation of decisions taken throughout a game. (NOt every decision).

I want, for me, any doubt removed in my mind that the game is corrupt. I think that is all some clubs are asking for. Why wouldnt every suppporter, every club want that?

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 04:56 PM

So if we all think there is a level of dubiety in our game at refereeing and possibly at association level is the current debacle not actually a good thing if a proper review and improvement of standards and governance is achieved?

I honestly think blanket TV coverage has cleaned a lot of the dodginess up. The thing that is astonishing about that penalty that never was, is that very little was said at the time.

Nowadays, the ref would know that it would be rehashed over and over again. I'm also sure Hibs wouldn't have taken it lying down had it happened today.

At the end of the day, you can bring in all sorts of standards of governance, but the wise guys will always find a way round them. On top of that, think of the administrative nightmare that would surround appeals etc on every decision in every game.

The irony about all this is McDonald actually did the right thing, he spoke to his linesman and changed the decision. The controversy surrounds how he handled the managers - who were hardly behaving like gentlemen themselves.

In the old days, the likes of Tiny Wharton would just have told them to F off, or even asked them for a square go.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 04:58 PM

Was talking to a mate earlier who has heard that a newspaper has a hold of 20+ match reports involving Celtic which have been altered with and will print them all. I don't know where he got his information from but he's a pretty trust worthy guy. If this was true what affect could it have on the SPL and Scottish football in general? It could be 100% bull but I thought I'd share what I heard, Josh.

This thing from Celtic is like a man trying to hold up a bank with a banana under his coat. They have no evidence and are trying to wind up their supporters - which, admittedly doesn't take much.

ronaldo7

23-11-2010, 05:08 PM

Was talking to a mate earlier who has heard that a newspaper has a hold of 20+ match reports involving Celtic which have been altered with and will print them all. I don't know where he got his information from but he's a pretty trust worthy guy. If this was true what affect could it have on the SPL and Scottish football in general? It could be 100% bull but I thought I'd share what I heard, Josh.

This is all over the Celtc message boards. Their's a text doing the rounds in the weeg saying they are after Dallas.

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 05:18 PM

Apolgies, I cant respond or more to the point not sure how to reply to your multi quote parts in the text.

1. I never said mates in any of my emails. I have though taken business associates, friends and also relatives with me to ER. Not everyone of them has mentioned the fact that they thought something was wrong with the refereeing. I thought it would be something worth mentioning as they were comments made to me both during and after matches. Anyway you carry on patronising.

Ok. People you were at a game with. Are you seriosuly telling me they spontaneously came out with "Wow - these guys look corrupt" or were they reacting in conversation with your strongly held opinion? And thanks for the permission to patronise.

2. The comments I have made are my opinions, I have maintained them for 21 years. You obviously have diferent views, and thats fine.

3. I am highly unlikely to name the referees that I thought have been less than honest on a messageboard, public, privately or whatever. I have however pointed out where in very recent times a referee has lied. Now if he is the only referee that has lied or been economical with the truthfor a hundred odd years, I will stand corrected.

Why? It's an anonymous forum, and theres plenty of people across every football related messageboard who are very much less circumspect about espousing their views. I think asking for reasons or specific evidence behind your asertion sisnt unreasonable, not just a "if youve been watching the game for any time then you'll have seen it", because that just doesnt wash.

4. I agree with you about the depth of refereeing in England, and therefore therefore a larger spread. The EPL tends to have the same ref's across the games with a few additions and subtractions. We could have the same spread of refs of we did not pick them from Scotland. Calling someone a cheating ******* in the heat of the moment is different from what I am talking about.

Fair do's.

All I would be after is an openess in what goes on in our game, what on earth is the matter with that?

1. What team they followed throughout their childhood
2. School attended
3. Explanation of decisions taken throughout a game. (NOt every decision).

There's plenty of posts on this thread and elsewhere on why these are completely preposterous ideas, but I'll summarise them for you.

1) It just doesnt matter. It really, really doesnt. If you're a senior referee, youve spent almost certainly at least a decade refereeing every Saturday, and it becomes your overwhelming football interest and focus. I'm guessing you're not a referee or that you dont know any senior ones, and therefore you're looking at this solely from a fans viewpoint, and it can be hard to accept that this is true. What pictures you had on your wall when you were 15 doesnt have the slightest influence on what referees do when they are 30.

2) To even suggest that if you went to St Josephs or some other clearly Catholic school, for example, automatically makes you a Tim sympathiser is wrong, petty minded and deeply insulting. In what other walk of life would you be openly and publicly be dismissed as potentially untrustworthy as a result of where you went to school? if you went to Tynecastle High could you not do Hearts games, or not be trusted at Easter Road if you went to Leith Academy? What if you moved house and went to both - could you do neither? Ridiculous.

3) Every controversial decision made, if it has to be defended by a referee, becomes a matter of public debate. If, like you, you have an unmovable opinion on their inherent corruption, you won't believe the reasons given, and in fact use the explanation to back up your prejudice. if they say they were wrong, then they're incompetent as well as corrupt. It's a serious lose/lose. As per my earlier post, if you think its corrupt, its pointless to waste your money on a game. There has to be a complete acceptance that all decisions made are made honestly, even if they are subsequently shown to be wrong. If you dont, we should just pack it all in and go the cinema on a Saturday.

I want, for me, any doubt removed in my mind that the game is corrupt. I think that is all some clubs are asking for. Why wouldnt every suppporter, every club want that?

No proof you are given is going to pesuade you. You've already said that. What's happened here is that you've had your 21-year-old bias backed up by those champions of justice, Neil Lennon and Vladimir Romanov. How do you feel about that?

Argylehibby

23-11-2010, 05:22 PM

1. What team they followed throughout their childhood
2. School attended
3. Explanation of decisions taken throughout a game. (NOt every decision).

I want, for me, any doubt removed in my mind that the game is corrupt. I think that is all some clubs are asking for. Why wouldnt every suppporter, every club want that?

If you ask Q1 of refs then does that not in effect debar any individual who supports Rangers or Celtic refereeing any game where either half of the OF are involved and effectively rule them out of refereeing the majority of cup finals in this country?

When Dougie McDonald has refereed our games if anything I have thought he has "erred" on the opponents side to ensure his neutrality has not been called into question, making refs come out and state their loyalties would in my opinion be a poor call.

Q2 The school they attended has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to referee a game of football and to suggest if you went to a Catholic school you shouldn’t referee Hibs v Motherwell for example is ridiculous. So what schools are ok to attend and referee Rangers games then?

Q3 I agree that this would be good but when do you think that should happen? Immediately after the game when any comments can be heard by the managers who then take you task there and then or on the day after the game when some managers would accuse you of "getting your story straight"?

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 05:34 PM

Ok. People you were at a game with. Are you seriosuly telling me they spontaneously came out with "Wow - these guys look corrupt" or were they reacting in conversation with your strongly held opinion? And thanks for the permission to patronise.

No problem, patronise away.... Yes I am seriously telling you that. I don't particularly go to games to watch referees, I go to watch the football. They have formed their own opinion, they do not require me telling them what they can obviously see for themselves.

Why? It's an anonymous forum, and theres plenty of people across every football related messageboard who are very much less circumspect about espousing their views. I think asking for reasons or specific evidence behind your asertion sisnt unreasonable, not just a "if youve been watching the game for any time then you'll have seen it", because that just doesnt wash.

I won't name who I think on a message board.
Fair do's.

There's plenty of posts on this thread and elsewhere on why these are completely preposterous ideas, but I'll summarise them for you.

1) It just doesnt matter. It really, really doesnt. If you're a senior referee, youve spent almost certainly at least a decade refereeing every Saturday, and it becomes your overwhelming football interest and focus. I'm guessing you're not a referee or that you dont know any senior ones, and therefore you're looking at this solely from a fans viewpoint, and it can be hard to accept that this is true. What pictures you had on your wall when you were 15 doesnt have the slightest influence on what referees do when they are 30.

I am not a referee, I do know referee's many in fact past and present.

2) To even suggest that if you went to St Josephs or some other clearly Catholic school, for example, automatically makes you a Tim sympathiser is wrong, petty minded and deeply insulting. In what other walk of life would you be openly and publicly be dismissed as potentially untrustworthy as a result of where you went to school? if you went to Tynecastle High could you not do Hearts games, or not be trusted at Easter Road if you went to Leith Academy? What if you moved house and went to both - could you do neither? Ridiculous.

I mentioned earlier about moving any doubt. We are talking about Scotland in its entirety here, not just your area. To move all doubt.

3) Every controversial decision made, if it has to be defended by a referee, becomes a matter of public debate. If, like you, you have an unmovable opinion on their inherent corruption, you won't believe the reasons given, and in fact use the explanation to back up your prejudice. if they say they were wrong, then they're incompetent as well as corrupt. It's a serious lose/lose. As per my earlier post, if you think its corrupt, its pointless to waste your money on a game. There has to be a complete acceptance that all decisions made are made honestly, even if they are subsequently shown to be wrong. If you dont, we should just pack it all in and go the cinema on a Saturday.

Do what you want on a Saturday, personally I don't give a flying. I have alreeady stated that I do not think all referees in Scotland are corrupt. Therefore not all games are a waste of time.

No proof you are given is going to pesuade you. You've already said that. What's happened here is that you've had your 21-year-old bias backed up by those champions of justice, Neil Lennon and Vladimir Romanov. How do you feel about that?

I'm glad that Lennon, Reid and Romanov have had their say. What I don't see is many other clubs disagreeing with them.

I am going out now, but all I am trying to say is that it would be far better for our game to have referee's from outside of Scotland. I have maintained this for 21 years and nothing that has happened over that period has made me change my mind. If you are happy with the refereeing standards and are satisfied that it is whiter than white, fair enough.

Hibbyradge

23-11-2010, 05:39 PM

At the end of the 85/86 season, Hearts were playing at Dundee. (See DBS for more details!)

The referee was known to be a Hearts supporter.

During the game, Hearts had a strong claim for a penalty. It wasn't given.

Subsequently, the referee has spoken of feeling the pressure and being worried of being accused of bias towards Hearts.

Declaring your boyhood team would be utterly destructive.

Hibbyradge

23-11-2010, 05:40 PM

I'm glad that Lennon, Reid and Romanov have had their say. What I don't see is many other clubs disagreeing with them.

Exactly. And that's shameful.

And, it's why the referees are taking strike action against all the SPL clubs, not just Celtic.

hughio

23-11-2010, 05:44 PM

two carpets

FWIW I agree with you:thumbsup:

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 05:45 PM

Ok. People you were at a game with. Are you seriosuly telling me they spontaneously came out with "Wow - these guys look corrupt" or were they reacting in conversation with your strongly held opinion? And thanks for the permission to patronise.

No problem, patronise away.... Yes I am seriously telling you that. I don't particularly go to games to watch referees, I go to watch the football. They have formed their own opinion, they do not require me telling them what they can obviously see for themselves.

Why? It's an anonymous forum, and theres plenty of people across every football related messageboard who are very much less circumspect about espousing their views. I think asking for reasons or specific evidence behind your asertion sisnt unreasonable, not just a "if youve been watching the game for any time then you'll have seen it", because that just doesnt wash.

I won't name who I think on a message board.

There's plenty of posts on this thread and elsewhere on why these are completely preposterous ideas, but I'll summarise them for you.

1) It just doesnt matter. It really, really doesnt. If you're a senior referee, youve spent almost certainly at least a decade refereeing every Saturday, and it becomes your overwhelming football interest and focus. I'm guessing you're not a referee or that you dont know any senior ones, and therefore you're looking at this solely from a fans viewpoint, and it can be hard to accept that this is true. What pictures you had on your wall when you were 15 doesnt have the slightest influence on what referees do when they are 30.

I am not a referee, I do know referee's many in fact past and present.
2) To even suggest that if you went to St Josephs or some other clearly Catholic school, for example, automatically makes you a Tim sympathiser is wrong, petty minded and deeply insulting. In what other walk of life would you be openly and publicly be dismissed as potentially untrustworthy as a result of where you went to school? if you went to Tynecastle High could you not do Hearts games, or not be trusted at Easter Road if you went to Leith Academy? What if you moved house and went to both - could you do neither? Ridiculous.

I mentioned earlier about moving any doubt. We are talking about Scotland in its entirety here, not just your area. To move all doubt.
3) Every controversial decision made, if it has to be defended by a referee, becomes a matter of public debate. If, like you, you have an unmovable opinion on their inherent corruption, you won't believe the reasons given, and in fact use the explanation to back up your prejudice. if they say they were wrong, then they're incompetent as well as corrupt. It's a serious lose/lose. As per my earlier post, if you think its corrupt, its pointless to waste your money on a game. There has to be a complete acceptance that all decisions made are made honestly, even if they are subsequently shown to be wrong. If you dont, we should just pack it all in and go the cinema on a Saturday.

Do what you want on a Saturday, personally I don't give a flying. I have alreeady stated that I do not think all referees in Scotland are corrupt. Therefore not all games are a waste of time.
No proof you are given is going to pesuade you. You've already said that. What's happened here is that you've had your 21-year-old bias backed up by those champions of justice, Neil Lennon and Vladimir Romanov. How do you feel about that?

So instead of actually challenging any of my points you've done the messageboard equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and gone "I cant hear you i cant hear you"

I'm glad that Lennon, Reid and Romanov have had their say. What I don't see is many other clubs disagreeing with them.

I am going out now, but all I am trying to say is that it would be far better for our game to have referee's from outside of Scotland. I have maintained this for 21 years and nothing that has happened over that period has made me change my mind. If you are happy with the refereeing standards and are satisfied that it is whiter than white, fair enough.

If by whiter than white you mean there isnt room for improvement, then of course not. but it is it corrupt? Naaaaaaaaahhhhh.

Its hard to admit you're wrong when its been your soapbox for 21 years.

Have a nice night

Gettin' Auld

23-11-2010, 05:47 PM

Seems like the SFA are having major problems trying to get referees from overseas who are willing to "break the strike" of their fellow refs here.

CabbageBoy

23-11-2010, 05:54 PM

message boards, but very well put

Celtic appeal to UEFA is heard

UEFA/FIFA Meeting.

"The refs in Scotland have gone on strike."
"Why?"
"Because of Celtic FC who believe that the officials in Scottish football are conspiring against them and have been for decades."
"Who is this Celtic FC that you are talking about?
"They are one of the biggest team in Scotland and the wealthiest."
"Have they ever won the league?"
"Yes 42 times, they have also won the scottish cups several times, they also won the league 9 times in a row."
"When did they last win the league?"
"Three years ago."
"Do they regularly finish near the bottom of the league?"
"No not at all."
"So why do they think they are being cheated?"
"Because sometimes decisions go against them."
"Doesnt that happen to every team?"
"Yes but Celtic FC think that they are special."
"Do decisions ever go for them?"
"Yes on a regular basis but they fail to mention any of these in their letters of complaint"
"So you are seriously saying that the wealthiest team in Scotland who have won the league 42 times, the last time
being only a few years ago, as well as several other trophies truly believe that there is a long running conspiracy against them."
"Yes."
"Why on Earth are we wasting our time on this?"
"I honestly dont know."

The point about Celtc winning the cup so many times is the one that provides the biggest argument against organisational bias; it would be much easier to fix/manipulate a cup competition than a 39 game season, and yet they regularly win both cups.

snooky

23-11-2010, 06:01 PM

This thing from Celtic is like a man trying to hold up a bank with a banana under his coat. They have no evidence and are trying to wind up their supporters - which, admittedly doesn't take much.

Aye, as Mae West said "Is that a banana under yer coat or are you just glad to see me" :wink:

Hibbyradge

23-11-2010, 06:08 PM

Kaiser1962

23-11-2010, 06:23 PM

Was talking to a mate earlier who has heard that a newspaper has a hold of 20+ match reports involving Celtic which have been altered with and will print them all. I don't know where he got his information from but he's a pretty trust worthy guy. If this was true what affect could it have on the SPL and Scottish football in general? It could be 100% bull but I thought I'd share what I heard, Josh.

If they have comprehensive proof then why arent they handing this to the police? There is a lot of money at stake in bets and if they have this proof do I get my money back?

Or is it nudge nudge wink wink sort of stuff like usual?

Kaiser1962

23-11-2010, 06:28 PM

I honestly think blanket TV coverage has cleaned a lot of the dodginess up. The thing that is astonishing about that penalty that never was, is that very little was said at the time.

Nowadays, the ref would know that it would be rehashed over and over again. I'm also sure Hibs wouldn't have taken it lying down had it happened today.

At the end of the day, you can bring in all sorts of standards of governance, but the wise guys will always find a way round them. On top of that, think of the administrative nightmare that would surround appeals etc on every decision in every game.

The irony about all this is McDonald actually did the right thing, he spoke to his linesman and changed the decision. The controversy surrounds how he handled the managers - who were hardly behaving like gentlemen themselves.

In the old days, the likes of Tiny Wharton would just have told them to F off, or even asked them for a square go.

Really Filled Rolls??? Do you think if Lennon had gone face to Tiny's nipple and spat out venom and vitriol Tiny would have actually ASKED for a square go??

He would just flattened the little ***** there and then. Wouldnt have even bothered to ask. IMHO.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 06:33 PM

Really Filled Rolls??? Do you think if Lennon had gone face to Tiny's nipple and spat out venom and vitriol Tiny would have actually ASKED for a square go??

He would just flattened the little ***** there and then. Wouldnt have even bothered to ask. IMHO.

You're right of course. There's so many good things I'd forgotten about the old days. I'm sure Tommy Muirhead would have stuck the head on him given the chance. Bob Valentine would just have done his best impression of Sgt. Wilson and asked him "do you really think that's wise sir?"

Part/Time Supporter

23-11-2010, 06:37 PM

Yes, but don't you know, Celtc win things despite the conspiracies against them.

Consider, for example, the years 1965 - 1974. Celtic only managed to win 9 league titles in a row, 6 Scottish Cups, 5 League Cups, reached 2 European finals, winning one. This included 2 domestic trebles and a European one.

As is the case today, anti Celtic conspiracies were clearly rife.

One would have thought that Celtic would do rather better in Europe, unencumbered by these conspiratorial masonic referees....

oh, wait a minute.

WindyMiller

23-11-2010, 06:50 PM

Apologies, I cant respond or more to the point not sure how to reply to your multi quote parts in the text.

1. I never said mates in any of my emails. I have though taken business associates, friends and also relatives with me to ER. Not everyone of them has mentioned the fact that they thought something was wrong with the refereeing. I thought it would be something worth mentioning as they were comments made to me both during and after matches. Anyway you carry on patronising.

2. The comments I have made are my opinions, I have maintained them for 21 years. You obviously have diferent views, and thats fine.

3. I am highly unlikely to name the referees that I thought have been less than honest on a messageboard, public, privately or whatever. I have however pointed out where in very recent times a referee has lied. Now if he is the only referee that has lied or been economical with the truthfor a hundred odd years, I will stand corrected.

4. I agree with you about the depth of refereeing in England, and therefore therefore a larger spread. The EPL tends to have the same ref's across the games with a few additions and subtractions. We could have the same spread of refs of we did not pick them from Scotland. Calling someone a cheating ******* in the heat of the moment is different from what I am talking about.

All I would be after is an openess in what goes on in our game, what on earth is the matter with that?

1. What team they followed throughout their childhood
2. School attended
3. Explanation of decisions taken throughout a game. (NOt every decision).

I want, for me, any doubt removed in my mind that the game is corrupt. I think that is all some clubs are asking for. Why wouldnt every suppporter, every club want that?

Someone's religious upbringing (as opposed to beliefs) should never be taken in to consideration or we're all going down the Sectarian route with the OF.

My father went to DK, married a RC and allowed me to be raised RC (currently an atheist); he was a Jambo.

My father-in-law went to DK,was bitterly dissapointed when his daughter brought home a RC; he was a Mason and ST at ER.

:bye:

northern-hibee

23-11-2010, 07:00 PM

Apologies, I cant respond or more to the point not sure how to reply to your multi quote parts in the text.

1. I never said mates in any of my emails. I have though taken business associates, friends and also relatives with me to ER. Not everyone of them has mentioned the fact that they thought something was wrong with the refereeing. I thought it would be something worth mentioning as they were comments made to me both during and after matches. Anyway you carry on patronising.

2. The comments I have made are my opinions, I have maintained them for 21 years. You obviously have diferent views, and thats fine.

3. I am highly unlikely to name the referees that I thought have been less than honest on a messageboard, public, privately or whatever. I have however pointed out where in very recent times a referee has lied. Now if he is the only referee that has lied or been economical with the truthfor a hundred odd years, I will stand corrected.

4. I agree with you about the depth of refereeing in England, and therefore therefore a larger spread. The EPL tends to have the same ref's across the games with a few additions and subtractions. We could have the same spread of refs of we did not pick them from Scotland. Calling someone a cheating ******* in the heat of the moment is different from what I am talking about.

All I would be after is an openess in what goes on in our game, what on earth is the matter with that?

1. What team they followed throughout their childhood
2. School attended
3. Explanation of decisions taken throughout a game. (NOt every decision).

I want, for me, any doubt removed in my mind that the game is corrupt. I think that is all some clubs are asking for. Why wouldnt every suppporter, every club want that?

Agree with all of that 100%. Non Scottish refs is the only way forward now and I think we would see a huge improvement in the game without the OF bias shown whether intentionally or not

The_Todd

23-11-2010, 07:06 PM

I've seen stats that showed Celtc got more penalties than anyone last season, fewer red cards than Rangers and in fact Rangers got fewer penalties than Hibs or Dundee United last season.

Maybe it's a cover up of a cover up?

The_Todd

23-11-2010, 07:09 PM

Someone's religious upbringing (as opposed to beliefs) should never be taken in to consideration or we're all going down the Sectarian route with the OF.

My father went to DK, married a RC and allowed me to be raised RC (currently an atheist); he was a Jambo.

My father-in-law went to DK,was bitterly dissapointed when his daughter brought home a RC; he was a Mason and ST at ER.

:bye:

Absolutely. If we feel that religion and schooling are in any way important in football we're playing right into the bigots hands.

Seriously, this is just highlighting what a problem there is in Scotland.

Sylar

23-11-2010, 07:22 PM

I hope Celtc are watching the Ajax vs Real Madrid game right now, so they can see that it's not specific to them.

Craig Thompson is the referee and he's having a nightmare of a game :agree:

PeeKay

23-11-2010, 07:25 PM

It is usual for strikers to be making some demands that their employers are unwilling to concede. Can anyone tell me what (if any) demands the refreees have put on the table? Or is it just that their feelings have been hurt and so now their no playin'?
Have to say that reading this thread and listening to the people texting and e-mailing the BBC, the speed at which the referees of this country have attained sainthood (well the catholic ones anyway :wink:) is quite astonishing.

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 07:31 PM

It is usual for strikers to be making some demands that their employers are unwilling to concede. Can anyone tell me what (if any) demands the refreees have put on the table? Or is it just that their feelings have been hurt and so now their no playin'?

Gordon Smith said a similar thing on TalkSport this morning. Does anyone know what they want?

Are they demanding respect? I'm not sure you get respect by just asking for it TBH.

matty_f

23-11-2010, 07:35 PM

So celtc are saying mcdonald should get salted for lying. I am looking forward to watching them take that course of action against their players when they are yet again caught diving, our claim 'i never touched him ref' when they blatantly have, our when they shout ' our ball' even though they know they have kicked it out.
They have the cheek to question the integrity of the referees despite providing the scottish game with some of the most persistent offenders of diving, despite lennon going mental at one of the clearest red cards you'll ever see that happened right in front of him, despite them tapping up players all over the shop. Dishonest and lacking integrity? Celtc should look at themselves before starting on any one else.

BEEJ

23-11-2010, 07:36 PM

The irony about all this is McDonald actually did the right thing, he spoke to his linesman and changed the decision. The controversy surrounds how he handled the managers - who were hardly behaving like gentlemen themselves.
:top marks In a nutshell.

And for that, folks are calling for his resignation. Preposterous.

matty_f

23-11-2010, 07:38 PM

:top marks In a nutshell.

And for that, folks are calling for his resignation. Preposterous.
:agree:
The guy has given an easy answer to get out of an intimidating situation, he didn't cheat in the game. Yes, he shouldn't have lied but if the managers behaved like adults this would never have happened.

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 07:49 PM

Agree with all of that 100%. Non Scottish refs is the only way forward now and I think we would see a huge improvement in the game without the OF bias shown whether intentionally or not

Please.

Think about what youve written.

Unintentional bias? The same bias that referees at Old Trafford or the Nou Camp are routinely accused of showing because of crowd pressure? So what you're saying is that for some mystical reason Pedro Whistlero, Knut Refson or Jacques Arbitre has the moral fortitude that every Scottish referee lacks? What a load of unmitigated keech.

What you want will never happen, so it is a completely moot point, but you do realise that you are agitating for a course of action that would completely discredit the Scottish game, internationally, for ever?

It is usual for strikers to be making some demands that their employers are unwilling to concede. Can anyone tell me what (if any) demands the refreees have put on the table? Or is it just that their feelings have been hurt and so now their no playin'?

The referees have had their integrity called into question. As this integrity is absolute key to their ability to do their job, their position becomes untenable.

Have to say that reading this thread and listening to the people texting and e-mailing the BBC, the speed at which the referees of this country have attained sainthood (well the catholic ones anyway ) is quite astonishing.

Bollox. Nobody is suggesting that the referees here are any better (or worse) than anywhere else. What is being said is that for any and all faults they have, they're not cheats.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 07:51 PM

:agree:
The guy has given an easy answer to get out of an intimidating situation, he didn't cheat in the game. Yes, he shouldn't have lied but if the managers behaved like adults this would never have happened.

The standard advice in dealing with someone who has lost the plot is to play along with them as much as possible.

Phil D. Rolls

23-11-2010, 07:53 PM

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 07:56 PM

The referees have had their integrity called into question. As this integrity is absolute key to their ability to do their job, their position becomes untenable.

Seems like it's more of a huff than a strike to me.

How can they complain that their integrity is in question given the fact that Dougie Mac admitted lying?

The_Todd

23-11-2010, 08:01 PM

Seems like it's more of a huff than a strike to me.

How can they complain that their integrity is in question given the fact that Dougie Mac admitted lying?

I'd take a serious huff too if my windows got bricked by over zealous sports fans.

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 08:03 PM

I'd take a serious huff too if my windows got bricked by over zealous sports fans.

Who did that happen to?

I'm not surprised all this petty posturing's happening now that Hugh Dallas is the refs boss - that's what he built a career on.

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 08:04 PM

Seems like it's more of a huff than a strike to me.

How can they complain that their integrity is in question given the fact that Dougie Mac admitted lying?

It's the context of what he said.

It was after the game, and did not in any way relate to his application of the laws of the game or the manner in which he behaved on the park. Whether or not he changed his mind off his own back or from advice from the linesman is a matter of such trivial importance as to be immaterial.

It was a stupid thing to do right enough, and he was censured for it.

Case closed.

Unless you're that wee ginger tw@t or "Honest" John Read

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 08:06 PM

It's the context of what he said.

It was after the game, and did not in any way relate to his application of the laws of the game or the manner in which he behaved on the park. Whether or not he changed his mind off his own back or from advice from the linesman is a matter of such trivial importance as to be immaterial.

It was a stupid thing to do right enough, and he was censured for it.

Case closed.

Unless you're that wee ginger tw@t or "Honest" John Read

I agree and he done well to admit his mistake and fix it before it was too late. But he admitted lying so of course integrity is going to be called into question.

How do they think striking will fix the problem?

NAE NOOKIE

23-11-2010, 08:32 PM

I have seen some truly rubbish refereeing performances over the last few years.

I have shouted all sorts of football fan types of abuse at them as a result.

I believe that refs do sometimes give decisions to the OF they wouldnt give to other teams.

I do NOT believe that referees are dishonest or biased.

I do not believe that they should get death threats from morons or be vilified by paranoid idiots like celtic or mad vlad.

I cant say I am the least bit surprised that they have decided to strike.

And .... As a confirmed union man who is slightly to the left of Arthur Scargill I for one would have a crisis of consience going to watch a match officiated over by a scab ref. :confused:

Oh ... and I notice that as usual the SPL and SFA are acting like a bunch of useless twats in not seeing this coming and failing to do anything to nip it in the bud before it did.

:grr:

ekhibee

23-11-2010, 08:39 PM

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 08:49 PM

I agree and he done well to admit his mistake and fix it before it was too late. But he admitted lying so of course integrity is going to be called into question.

How do they think striking will fix the problem?

For all I care, a referee at Easter Road can be a serial fraudster, with a string of ex-wives as a result of adultery as long as he applies the laws correctly on the pitch, where it matters.

Given that they have no other realistic option open to them, withdrawal of their services will, I hope, force the governing bodies - the SFA, the SFL and the SPL to address the issues surrounding referees.

What I hope it will produce is a route for clubs to raise concerns they may have about referees in a structured and controlled way, done in private to ensure it doesnt become trial by media which leads, clearly, to entrenched positions.

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 08:55 PM

For all I care, a referee at Easter Road can be a serial fraudster, with a string of ex-wives as a result of adultery as long as he applies the laws correctly on the pitch, where it matters.

Given that they have no other realistic option open to them, withdrawal of their services will, I hope, force the governing bodies - the SFA, the SFL and the SPL to address the issues surrounding referees.

What I hope it will produce is a route for clubs to raise concerns they may have about referees in a structured and controlled way, done in private to ensure it doesnt become trial by media which leads, clearly, to entrenched positions.

Do you have any idea what other routes they tried before opting to strike?

PeeKay

23-11-2010, 09:02 PM

Bollox. Nobody is suggesting that the referees here are any better (or worse) than anywhere else. What is being said is that for any and all faults they have, they're not cheats.

Ok. Picture the scene. A striker comes close to a goalkeeper and, without being touched the goalkeeper falls down holding his head as if he had been head-butted. Referees have been told to clamp down on simulation, but no action is taken against the goalkeeper in this instance. Is this what is called "an honest mistake"? And if it can't be called an honest mistake, then what is it?

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 09:07 PM

Do you have any idea what other routes they tried before opting to strike?

Nope - no inside track on that Im afraid... Personal opinion is that anything other than this would have been seen as weak and, frankly, a bit whiney.

What is really interesting about this whole thing is the general level of support for referees - its much higher than I thought it would be. My personal hope is that football at all levels realises that referees are an integral part of the game, not the enemy.

You sometimes hear people saying things after a game like "that ref had a good game - we hardly saw him". It is seldom a coincidence that this is during games where the players have concentrated on playing the game, not cheating, diving or kicking each other off the park. in lots of games, the only person on the pitch not happy to attempt to cheat or con the punters watching is the referee. I would bet my mortgage that we've all been to infinitely more games that have had there outcome affected by a player deliberately cheating than a referee.

Danderhall Hibs

23-11-2010, 09:10 PM

Nope - no inside track on that Im afraid... Personal opinion is that anything other than this would have been seen as weak and, frankly, a bit whiney.

What is really interesting about this whole thing is the general level of support for referees - its much higher than I thought it would be. My personal hope is that football at all levels realises that referees are an integral part of the game, not the enemy.

You sometimes hear people saying things after a game like "that ref had a good game - we hardly saw him". It is seldom a coincidence that this is during games where the players have concentrated on playing the game, not cheating, diving or kicking each other off the park. in lots of games, the only person on the pitch not happy to attempt to cheat or con the punters watching is the referee. I would bet my mortgage that we've all been to infinitely more games that have had there outcome affected by a player deliberately cheating than a referee.

I agree with most of your post except the 1st sentence - I think it looks like a bit of a toys out the pram moment. Kind of a look at us look how important we are. Very much a Hugh Dallas type statement in fact.

Removed

23-11-2010, 09:17 PM

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 09:19 PM

Ok. Picture the scene. A striker comes close to a goalkeeper and, without being touched the goalkeeper falls down holding his head as if he had been head-butted. Referees have been told to clamp down on simulation, but no action is taken against the goalkeeper in this instance. Is this what is called "an honest mistake"? And if it can't be called an honest mistake, then what is it?

Yup. He should have been booked, no question. I have no idea why he didnt, but I'm equally sure he didn't think "Ach, it's wee Alan an he plays for Rangers, I'll no' bother booking him". We've all seen the incident a dozen times, in slow mo, from different angles.

The ref saw it once, (and having just checked a video on YouTube) was at least 20 yards away, and probably (given where he would likely be positioned - he's not in the shot) looking at the incident from directly behind where Deek was, so couldnt possibly have seen the angle the camera had where the cheating git is caught taking his sniper shot.

You also have to bear in mind that he didnt send Riordan off, which given the point of view you seem to have he could very easily have done on the basis of McGregors histrionics. Why didn't he, if you think he's biased. Much more of an advantge to der hun to have riordan off rather than not booking McGregor.

The thing to focus on here though, and that I think people lose sight of, is that the cheating was 100% on the part of the player. That is squarely where the deceipt and lack of integrity lie.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 09:33 PM

Removed

23-11-2010, 09:37 PM

Thankfully somebody has grasped my point.

I pretty much said that way back at #115 :wink:

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 09:39 PM

Thankfully somebody has grasped my point.

I thought everyone from every walk of life and every country you've ever been to game with grasped your point, and it was jus the rest of us didnt have your wisdom and insight.

Fortunately, your desired outcome will never happen, but it does mean that you can continue living in your world of fantasy and conspiracies lurking behind every decision made by certain referees, who you mysteriously wont name.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 09:39 PM

Absolutely. If we feel that religion and schooling are in any way important in football we're playing right into the bigots hands.

Seriously, this is just highlighting what a problem there is in Scotland.

My point about schools in a nutshell.

I would be absolutely pissed off if somebody asked me what school I went to in order to perhaps understand what religion I was.

It maybe not such a problem in the East, but it is in the West. Always has been.

Nobody is going to ask that question, so therefore you cannot remove all reasonable doubt in some people minds.

It is sad but true, and therefore another reason why we should not have referees from Scotland.

I have tried to think of any other countries where this would be the case, and I cannot.

I am trying to highlight how ludicrous the entire situation is, but it is here and we have to deal with it.

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 09:46 PM

My point about schools in a nutshell.

I would be absolutely pissed off if somebody asked me what school I went to in order to perhaps understand what religion I was.

It maybe not such a problem in the East, but it is in the West. Always has been.

Nobody is going to ask that question, so therefore you cannot remove all reasonable doubt in some people minds.

It is sad but true, and therefore another reason why we should not have referees from Scotland.
I have tried to think of any other countries where this would be the case, and I cannot.

I am trying to highlight how ludicrous the entire situation is, but it is here and we have to deal with it.

The problem then lies with the people, not the referees, and is the best argument you can have to continue with refs from Scotland to show these people that their mindset is just plain wrong

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 09:47 PM

I pretty much said that way back at #115 :wink:

sorry, I didnt have time to trawl through the entire thread:thumbsup:

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 09:53 PM

I thought everyone from every walk of life and every country you've ever been to game with grasped your point, and it was jus the rest of us didnt have your wisdom and insight.

Fortunately, your desired outcome will never happen, but it does mean that you can continue living in your world of fantasy and conspiracies lurking behind every decision made by certain referees, who you mysteriously wont name.

Presume while I have been out, you have had a wee drink?

I think there are bent refs in our game, you don't fair enough. There have been for many years in my opinion. I am happy to name them, not to you as I don't know you from Adam, and certainly not on a message board.

All I want is a level playing field for all, you think it's there already.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 09:55 PM

The problem then lies with the people, not the referees, and is the best argument you can have to continue with refs from Scotland to show these people that their mindset is just plain wrong

People are a problem, correct. What are referees?

Has the penny dropped yet?

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 10:01 PM

Presume while I have been out, you have had a wee drink?

I think there are bent refs in our game, you don't fair enough. There have been for many years in my opinion. I am happy to name them, not to you as I don't know you from Adam, and certainly not on a message board.

All I want is a level playing field for all, you think it's there already.

No, sadly not on the bevvy front. Just working away with dips into the boards to relieve the tedium of microsoft excel.

I really dont know what your issue is with naming refs who you think are bent and why. I'm just interested in any evidence that you have by way of examples that would persuade anyone - me included - that your viewpoint is correct. I'm happy to change my opinion if there is evidence to back it up, but you would have to think that if it genuinely existed then either Rangers/Celtic/Hearts or any of their more paranoid, private-eye hiring fans would have publicised it before now.

By the way, i reckon the situation is different now to what it was 30 years back, when reffing wasnt a career and the scrutiny wasnt there or possible - I'd grant in the past before the money in the game took control in the eighties that some refs weren't dead straight.

Twa Cairpets

23-11-2010, 10:08 PM

People are a problem, correct. What are referees?

Has the penny dropped yet?

Just give me a minute to go find a wall to batter my head against.

Better

Yes referees are people. What they tend not to be, I would respectfully suggest, is the type of person who sits in his house surrounded by pictures of King Billy muttering about Fenian bastirts or fully paid up members of the Kights of St Columba. They are also, I suspect, not deep cover agents who have spent 10-15 years of their life working their way through refereeing ranks, taking in junior fixtures in such delightful outposts as Harthill, Auchinleck and Stoneyburn, on the off chance they'll be promoted to grade one just so they can award a controversial penalty for someone.

That way madness lies Bolton, honestly.

BoltonHibee

23-11-2010, 10:21 PM

Just give me a minute to go find a wall to batter my head against.

Better

Yes referees are people. What they tend not to be, I would respectfully suggest, is the type of person who sits in his house surrounded by pictures of King Billy muttering about Fenian bastirts or fully paid up members of the Kights of St Columba. They are also, I suspect, not deep cover agents who have spent 10-15 years of their life working their way through refereeing ranks, taking in junior fixtures in such delightful outposts as Harthill, Auchinleck and Stoneyburn, on the off chance they'll be promoted to grade one just so they can award a controversial penalty for someone.

That way madness lies Bolton, honestly.

We have corrupt politicians, but we cannot have corrupt referees?

I am not inferring they started out their professional life in that manner, and I am alos not saying that it is every referee.

Time to bang you head on that wall again:wink:

northern-hibee

23-11-2010, 11:12 PM

Please.

Think about what youve written.

Unintentional bias? The same bias that referees at Old Trafford or the Nou Camp are routinely accused of showing because of crowd pressure? So what you're saying is that for some mystical reason Pedro Whistlero, Knut Refson or Jacques Arbitre has the moral fortitude that every Scottish referee lacks? What a load of unmitigated keech.

What you want will never happen, so it is a completely moot point, but you do realise that you are agitating for a course of action that would completely discredit the Scottish game, internationally, for ever?

The referees have had their integrity called into question. As this integrity is absolute key to their ability to do their job, their position becomes untenable.

Bollox. Nobody is suggesting that the referees here are any better (or worse) than anywhere else. What is being said is that for any and all faults they have, they're not cheats.

Yip, just thought about what i,ve written thanks and stand by it. The big difference, which u dont seem to understand, is that by bringing in foreign refs means they do not have to suffer the same consequences for making a brave decision against the OF. Our refs have to live in the communities that are inhabited by the majirity of fans who they must give decisions against. Faced with this they almost always favour the OF whether conciencly or otherwise to minimise the hassle they receive. English refs dont face this as much because their league isnt dominated in the same manner and the media isnt so obsessed with nky two teams. just because u proclaim it will never happen should not preclude those if us who strive for a fairer crack of ghe whip from campaigning to have non scotish refs brought in as soon as possible.

Twa Cairpets

24-11-2010, 07:10 AM

Yip, just thought about what i,ve written thanks and stand by it. The big difference, which u dont seem to understand, is that by bringing in foreign refs means they do not have to suffer the same consequences for making a brave decision against the OF. Our refs have to live in the communities that are inhabited by the majirity of fans who they must give decisions against. Faced with this they almost always favour the OF whether conciencly or otherwise to minimise the hassle they receive. English refs dont face this as much because their league isnt dominated in the same manner and the media isnt so obsessed with nky two teams. just because u proclaim it will never happen should not preclude those if us who strive for a fairer crack of ghe whip from campaigning to have non scotish refs brought in as soon as possible.

Again, the thought process you have is limited.

1. You claim that refs "almost always favour the OF". Regardless of what you may think, there is no firm evidence to back this up. What team were affected by McDonalds decision in Dundee then?
2. The logic you have is just wrong. The refs understand that they have a high profile - that, to be honest, is part of the appeal for some of them. Tough decisions arent a problem. The issue is the clubs generating an atmosphere where the more neanderthal of their support think that they are entirely justified in threatening officials or abusing them in the street. That's what needs to be addressed rather than ridiculous solutions involving external referees.
3. If you genuinely want this to happen, then wave bye bye to grass roots football. If the assumption people have is that refs cant be trusted, and the highest they can go is the Junior Cup final, the numbers will drop off dramatically.

You campaign away mate.

s.a.m

24-11-2010, 08:01 AM

Again, the thought process you have is limited.

1. You claim that refs "almost always favour the OF". Regardless of what you may think, there is no firm evidence to back this up. What team were affected by McDonalds decision in Dundee then?
2. The logic you have is just wrong. The refs understand that they have a high profile - that, to be honest, is part of the appeal for some of them. Tough decisions arent a problem. The issue is the clubs generating an atmosphere where the more neanderthal of their support think that they are entirely justified in threatening officials or abusing them in the street. That's what needs to be addressed rather than ridiculous solutions involving external referees.
3. If you genuinely want this to happen, then wave bye bye to grass roots football. If the assumption people have is that refs cant be trusted, and the highest they can go is the Junior Cup final, the numbers will drop off dramatically.

You campaign away mate.

I would add to that, that football is a sport. Should we reach the stage where referees have to be imported, because it is perceived as being too dangerous for home-based referees to officiate here, then I don't think it's a 'sport' that I will want any more to do with. We already have the situation where Old Firm games are deliberately placed at less inflammatory stages of the schedule, to prevent their fans from becoming over-excited.:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm seeing a wee solution here............:idea:

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 08:46 AM

Then who are they? I can name some pretty useless ones but none that I consider corrupt. I could probably name some that have, IMHO, cowardly jibbed a big decision but none that consider to be favouring one team or the other.
I bet a lot of money on football and if there are corrupt officials then, like the politicians, they deserve to be outed.

Its also interesting to not that the poll has regularly stayed above 80% with the ref's on this.

We have corrupt politicians, but we cannot have corrupt referees?

I am not inferring they started out their professional life in that manner, and I am alos not saying that it is every referee.

Time to bang you head on that wall again:wink:

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 08:48 AM

J-C

24-11-2010, 09:05 AM

Can't be ersed reading 13 bloody pages about referee's, my take on all this is simple, the SFA didn't have the ball's to fire McDonald when he fabricated his wee white lie, they then shouldv'e came down severely with Lennon and that numpty John Reid ( DR haha ) for bringing the game into disrepute. Had all this been done nothing more wouldv'e been spoken about that match in Dundee and we could get on with playing football.
For all the Celtic moaners who go on about theories etc, where was all the biased against you when you lot were wining mutitudes of championship/Scottish cup and even the European Cup........funny how when all that was happening, nothing being said about conspiracies eh!

Scottish refs are pretty poor in general, I've seen some god awful decisions at ER but in sat=ying that they tend to be bloody poor against every team, yes we moan cause we think the Ugly Sisters get the benefit of these decisions but when you look closely at it, they don't really as we see the game with green tinted glasses on.

JimBHibees

24-11-2010, 09:12 AM

Andy74

24-11-2010, 09:22 AM

Got to be said wont be too chuffed if the game is off on Saturday. Personal opinion is referees you have made your point now lets get on with what you are paid to do and while you are at it an improvement in performance would be good too.

Yep, it's not on to be spoiling the weekends of all the decent football fans out there and to punish clubs who have done nothing wrong here.

If they have an issue over certain teams then refuse to be involved in games with them and let the rest of us get on with it.

I think Celtic ae geting off lightly here in the coverage, it's not right that them and their fans have really caused this situation. The club knows what Scotland is like and should be more responsible about winding up all the idiots that support them and then go and threaten anyone who they think is against them.

I doubt any foreign refs will break a strike and so it's all down to whether a deal can be done.

Surely an easy win is to ban any talk about refs from clubs - good, bad or indifferent keep it through official channels and say nothing publically or you are fined, banned, docked points, whatever.

blackpoolhibs

24-11-2010, 09:33 AM

Yep, it's not on to be spoiling the weekends of all the decent football fans out there and to punish clubs who have done nothing wrong here.

If they have an issue over certain teams then refuse to be involved in games with them and let the rest of us get on with it.

I think Celtic ae geting off lightly here in the coverage, it's not right that them and their fans have really caused this situation. The club knows what Scotland is like and should be more responsible about winding up all the idiots that support them and then go and threaten anyone who they think is against them.

I doubt any foreign refs will break a strike and so it's all down to whether a deal can be done.

Surely an easy win is to ban any talk about refs from clubs - good, bad or indifferent keep it through official channels and say nothing publically or you are fined, banned, docked points, whatever.

:agree: While we all have a pop at the refs from time to time, we all know just who is responsible for this coming to a head. The SFA have the chance now to bring in some very serious measures, for anyone who steps out of line in the future.

Although my gut feeling is a couple of knuckles will get rapped, and normal service will resume.:boo hoo:

jdships

24-11-2010, 09:38 AM

We have corrupt politicians, but we cannot have corrupt referees?

I am not inferring they started out their professional life in that manner, and I am alos not saying that it is every referee.

Time to bang you head on that wall again:wink:

:thumbsup:
Interesting analogy you make !!
There is corruption in all walks of life I imagine - some affect us more than others.
You can have an office/works manager who for "favours" will look kindly on any requests made by staff , same goes for solicitors , accountants , sportsmen/women - the list is endless.
My take on football referees is " what goes round ,comes round"
Decisions tend to level themselves out a penalty shout turned down one week can be given the next .
I think this situation is really down to one case involving McDonald .
Did he lie and if so why ?

Sad situation when " without a referee we do not have a game "

:confused:

jdships

24-11-2010, 09:46 AM

I would add to that, that football is a sport. Should we reach the stage where referees have to be imported, because it is perceived as being too dangerous for home-based referees to officiate here, then I don't think it's a 'sport' that I will want any more to do with. We already have the situation where Old Firm games are deliberately placed at less inflammatory stages of the schedule, to prevent their fans from becoming over-excited.:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm seeing a wee solution here............:idea:

:thumbsup:
Agree totally plus we also have the situation creeping in where the "essential we do not lose " syndromw is creeping in
Man Utd V Rangers , Scotland's 4-6-0
Managers wanting to take the moral high ground smacks of " the tail wagging the dog"

What happened to the "beautiful game " ?

Is it all just down to money ?

:rolleyes:

bawheid

24-11-2010, 09:49 AM

Good on the refs. Good on the foreign refs for supporting them too.

If I was them I would go further. I would say no further matches will be refereed until the issues of personal abuse, attack on integrity, accusations of cheating, etc are dealt with sufficiently.

They need to force the SFA to deal with the root of the problem - Celtic FC. So far, Celtic are getting off far too lightly IMO, for what has been a concerted campaign stretching back a few years.

On a wider scale we need to see more respect for referees from top to bottom, and that includes fans.

I can do without a few weeks football if it means not having to watch petulant, cheating players surrounding referees and screaming abuse in their faces every week.

basehibby

24-11-2010, 09:51 AM

Someone's religious upbringing (as opposed to beliefs) should never be taken in to consideration or we're all going down the Sectarian route with the OF.

My father went to DK, married a RC and allowed me to be raised RC (currently an atheist); he was a Jambo.

My father-in-law went to DK,was bitterly dissapointed when his daughter brought home a RC; he was a Mason and ST at ER.

:bye:

What have the Dead Kennedys got to do with all of this :confused::confused::confused:

southern hibby

24-11-2010, 09:55 AM

Not saying the REF's are in the right or wrong, maybe they do feel they are doing the right thing by telling everyone exactly where they stand and what they intend to do about it. They are as far as I am concerned not bringing the game into disreput (Sorry if that's the wrong spelling). That half of the Ugly Sisters who started this, has brought it on us.

They have the right, as does we all to stand up for themselves which they are doing.

I feel they could have just punished the team(s) involved and not the rest of us. However they obviuosly feel that they have had enough. I would have imagined this has already been brought to the SFA's attention and nothing has been done about it because they are totally Sh*t scarred of anoying the Ugly Sisters.

Not sure a strike is the correct answer however the REF's are doing what we have been hoping Scottish Football (including the SFA) should have done years ago.
STAND UP AGAINST THE INFIRM WHEN IT MATTERS AND TELL THEM ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
For that every fan outside the Old Firm should be grateful for, I know I am.

GGTTH

southern hibby

24-11-2010, 09:59 AM

Admin can you move my last post to the Thread of If the game is called off.
Dont know why it jumped to this thread but it has.
I've obviously done something wrong, like got up this morning.

Cheers,

GGTTH

JimBHibees

24-11-2010, 10:07 AM

Yep, it's not on to be spoiling the weekends of all the decent football fans out there and to punish clubs who have done nothing wrong here.

If they have an issue over certain teams then refuse to be involved in games with them and let the rest of us get on with it.

I think Celtic ae geting off lightly here in the coverage, it's not right that them and their fans have really caused this situation. The club knows what Scotland is like and should be more responsible about winding up all the idiots that support them and then go and threaten anyone who they think is against them.

I doubt any foreign refs will break a strike and so it's all down to whether a deal can be done.

Surely an easy win is to ban any talk about refs from clubs - good, bad or indifferent keep it through official channels and say nothing publically or you are fined, banned, docked points, whatever.

Totally agree and causing cash starved clubs to lose revenue at an important time of the year is IMO not on either. While personally have some sympathy for the refs I also think if the strike goes ahead and games are called off this weekend that it will be a disgrace and any sympathy for the refs will be in very short measure.

basehibby

24-11-2010, 10:14 AM

Ok. Picture the scene. A striker comes close to a goalkeeper and, without being touched the goalkeeper falls down holding his head as if he had been head-butted. Referees have been told to clamp down on simulation, but no action is taken against the goalkeeper in this instance. Is this what is called "an honest mistake"? And if it can't be called an honest mistake, then what is it?

Ah - yer talking about the McGregor incident aren't ya! McGregor WAS booked on that occasion - as was Riordan.

I emailed the sfa in the aftermath of that incident basically asking WTF was going on and why wasn't McGregor receiving further punishment. I received the following reply....

Dear (BaseHibby)

The Disciplinary Procedures are the regulations which govern how and what the Association can intervene in when an incident has occurred in a match. Under the Disciplinary Procedures, the acts of simulation that can be reviewed/scrutinised post event are those which are classed as gross simulation where a caution has not been issued and which generated one of the following two outcomes:-
a player causes an opponent to be sent off, or
a player wins a penalty that is converted.

In the incident in question, the player, McGregor, was cautioned by the match referee and no player was ordered off nor a penalty given and converted. Therefore, the Disciplinary Procedures do not allow the behaviour of the player in the incident to be further reviewed. The decision of the referee is therefore final and binding in respect of the incident.

I trust that I have clarified the matter.

Kind regards.
David Findlay
Head of Football Administration

Danderhall Hibs

24-11-2010, 10:19 AM

Totally agree and causing cash starved clubs to lose revenue at an important time of the year is IMO not on either. While personally have some sympathy for the refs I also think if the strike goes ahead and games are called off this weekend that it will be a disgrace and any sympathy for the refs will be in very short measure.

I agree. Not sure what “deal” can be done either. They’re not asking for anything that can be handed out as far as I can see?

Danderhall Hibs

24-11-2010, 10:21 AM

Ah - yer talking about the McGregor incident aren't ya! McGregor WAS booked on that occasion - as was Riordan.

I emailed the sfa in the aftermath of that incident basically asking WTF was going on and why wasn't McGregor receiving further punishment. I received the following reply....

Dear (BaseHibby)

The Disciplinary Procedures are the regulations which govern how and what the Association can intervene in when an incident has occurred in a match. Under the Disciplinary Procedures, the acts of simulation that can be reviewed/scrutinised post event are those which are classed as gross simulation where a caution has not been issued and which generated one of the following two outcomes:-
a player causes an opponent to be sent off, or
a player wins a penalty that is converted.

In the incident in question, the player, McGregor, was cautioned by the match referee and no player was ordered off nor a penalty given and converted. Therefore, the Disciplinary Procedures do not allow the behaviour of the player in the incident to be further reviewed. The decision of the referee is therefore final and binding in respect of the incident.

I trust that I have clarified the matter.

Kind regards.
David Findlay
Head of Football Administration

Pity they didn't confirm why Riordan was booked! Was McGregor booked for diving then?

Phil D. Rolls

24-11-2010, 10:30 AM

Totally agree and causing cash starved clubs to lose revenue at an important time of the year is IMO not on either. While personally have some sympathy for the refs I also think if the strike goes ahead and games are called off this weekend that it will be a disgrace and any sympathy for the refs will be in very short measure.

Your sympathy seems to depend on whether or not you get what you want. :cool2:

basehibby

24-11-2010, 10:45 AM

Pity they didn't confirm why Riordan was booked! Was McGregor booked for diving then?

They didn't say on either count although TBF I probably didn't ask - Riordan was probably booked for aggressive posturing or something and McGregor for being a big Jessie.

Seriously, I certainly viewed McGregor's actions as far more serious given that it was actual cheating in trying to get a player sent off through playacting, and maybe therefore Riordan shouldn't have been booked in order to demonstrate this. However, I think the ref acted within the rules in booking both of them, so PeeKay was off the mark in insinuating that there was a sinister hand at work.

northern-hibee

24-11-2010, 10:52 AM

Again, the thought process you have is limited.

1. You claim that refs "almost always favour the OF". Regardless of what you may think, there is no firm evidence to back this up. What team were affected by McDonalds decision in Dundee then?
2. The logic you have is just wrong. The refs understand that they have a high profile - that, to be honest, is part of the appeal for some of them. Tough decisions arent a problem. The issue is the clubs generating an atmosphere where the more neanderthal of their support think that they are entirely justified in threatening officials or abusing them in the street. That's what needs to be addressed rather than ridiculous solutions involving external referees.
3. If you genuinely want this to happen, then wave bye bye to grass roots football. If the assumption people have is that refs cant be trusted, and the highest they can go is the Junior Cup final, the numbers will drop off dramatically.

You campaign away mate.
Ok, i'll campaign for a fairer way whilst u are content to watch OF players shout and scream in the face of these great refs and dont get so much as a yellow card whilst hibs players get a straight red for swearing at a ref! . You can sit back and watch OF players foul as often as they want safe in the knowledge they will NEVER get sent off for persistant fouling whilst refs willingly send of hibs players and eagerly give penalties against them. I could list dozens of examples over the last 20 odd years of blatant bias whether you like it or not. Foreign refs would be appauled at the bias they would witness if they watched a few games and were able to give a neutral view on this. Scottish refs can be allowed back at top level games when they can prove they can handle the pressure

JimBHibees

24-11-2010, 11:24 AM

Your sympathy seems to depend on whether or not you get what you want. :cool2:

Probably however dont think games should be cancelled causing hard up clubs to lose important revenue and inconvenience the lifeblood of the game, the fans. Have a meeting agree to treat the refs better, move on.

Phil D. Rolls

24-11-2010, 11:26 AM

Probably however dont think games should be cancelled causing hard up clubs to lose important revenue and inconvenience the lifeblood of the game, the fans. Have a meeting agree to treat the refs better, move on.

I get the impression the refs would rather have it sorted before the weekend and it's a case of them banging heads together between the SFA, Celtic and Hearts.

Danderhall Hibs

24-11-2010, 11:27 AM

I get the impression the refs would rather have it sorted before the weekend and it's a case of them banging heads together between the SFA, Celtic and Hearts.

Our assistant manager’s sitting on a 15 match ban at the moment – maybe he’ll be involved as well? :devil:

Green_one

24-11-2010, 11:40 AM

[QUOTE=BoltonHibee;2645118]We have corrupt politicians, but we cannot have corrupt referees?

I am not inferring they started out their professional life in that manner, and I am alos not saying that it is every referee.
QUOTE]

People need to stop pretending that there is no way referees can be corrupt or show biaise.

We have seen the Italian and Spanish games exposed, with one Juventus official basically ordering the referees about by mobile. Several important european ties have either been very dodgy or have subsequently been shown to be the result of bribary. I know of one former Scottish referee telling a story about attempted brides in an international game in the far east. It included 'room service'. FIFA has just had several senior officials suspended for this. I am not saying the Scottish Refs are corrupt but we cannot say simply that there is no chance they are.

JimBHibees

24-11-2010, 11:42 AM

[QUOTE=BoltonHibee;2645118]We have corrupt politicians, but we cannot have corrupt referees?

I am not inferring they started out their professional life in that manner, and I am alos not saying that it is every referee.
QUOTE]

People need to stop pretending that there is no way referees can be corrupt or show biaise.

We have seen the Italian and Spanish games exposed, with one Juventus official basically ordering the referees about by mobile. Several important european ties have either been very dodgy or have subsequently been shown to be the result of bribary. I know of one former Scottish referee telling a story about attempted brides in an internationa game in the far east. It included 'room service'. FIFA has just had several senior officials suspended for this. I am not saying the Scottish Refs are corrupt but we cannot say simply that there is no chance they are not.

Completely agree it is naive in the extreme and IMO not particularly healthy to have certain positions on some sort of pedestal.

CentreLine

24-11-2010, 11:42 AM

Let's just assume that the SFA manage to bring in sufficient match officials to allow for the SPL games to go ahead. What happens to all the other games in the Scottish Leagues? And is it fair that the SPL goes ahead when the clubs that will suffer most from the situation cannot get their games on the park?

For what it is worth, I do not think that referees have gone far enough with this action. I think that they should pull the plug on football at every level so that everyone, from the child playing for the boys club right through to the overpaid premadonas playing at what we call the top flight, realise that referees and respect for referees are essential factors in the continuation of the game in this country.

LancashireHibby

24-11-2010, 11:44 AM

CentreLine

24-11-2010, 11:47 AM

If enough referees can be mustered for the SPL then I'm sure lower category referees from the same country can be brought in for the SFL?

You may be right but, as I understand it, the SFA have a contract that requires them to provide sufficient referees to ensure that SPL games go ahead. I am not convinced that there is anything as concrete in respect of the SFL. And even if there was, given that evey game would require a minimum of four officials, with the best will in the world I am not sure it would be possible to source that number of officials

Barney McGrew

24-11-2010, 11:52 AM

Word is that the SFA are writing to all 42 senior clubs this afternoon requesting confirmation that referees' integrity is not being called into question, with a deadline of tomorrow for a reply.

That could be interesting :hmmm:

Andy74

24-11-2010, 12:01 PM

BEEJ

24-11-2010, 12:09 PM

Pity they didn't confirm why Riordan was booked! Was McGregor booked for diving then?
I recall that Riordan and McGregor were each booked for 'squaring up to one another' - when in fact McGregor was the aggressor and Riordan was little more than a by-stander.

So McGregor's subsequent simulation attempt was completely ignored by the referee.

BEEJ

24-11-2010, 12:10 PM

A waste of time and effort writing to 41 of them.
You mean 40 of them.

Clarification certainly required on that score from the Yams.

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 12:40 PM

If ref's gave players a straight red for swearing at them there would be no-one left on the field. Who got sent off for swearing as I cant remember?

The Todds post earlier said that Hibs got more penalties last season than Rangers so that kindof blows that one out the water although I admit I would have bet my house and my pension on the opposite being true but there you go. On top of that we have had a fair few penalties this season just cant take them.

Ok, i'll campaign for a fairer way whilst u are content to watch OF players shout and scream in the face of these great refs and dont get so much as a yellow card whilst hibs players get a straight red for swearing at a ref! . You can sit back and watch OF players foul as often as they want safe in the knowledge they will NEVER get sent off for persistant fouling whilst refs willingly send of hibs players and eagerly give penalties against them. I could list dozens of examples over the last 20 odd years of blatant bias whether you like it or not. Foreign refs would be appauled at the bias they would witness if they watched a few games and were able to give a neutral view on this. Scottish refs can be allowed back at top level games when they can prove they can handle the pressure

DCI Gene Hunt

24-11-2010, 12:41 PM

All the talk of getting the refs back doesn't address the real issue here, which is how to adequately punish Celtic for their greetin'-faced whinging and to stop it happening again to the detriment of the game.

G

LancashireHibby

24-11-2010, 12:46 PM

If ref's gave players a straight red for swearing at them there would be no-one left on the field. Who got sent off for swearing as I cant remember?

A guy in the Sheffield United-Crystal Palace game got a straight red for dissent last weekend.

down the slope

24-11-2010, 01:45 PM

The refs now want every club to be in no doubt of their integrity and are seeking assurances of that from all clubs, seems like they are putting the pressure on Celtic to back them on this. I would think every club bar them would have no problem with their demands so they might have to eat humble pie on this one !.

Twa Cairpets

24-11-2010, 02:04 PM

Ok, i'll campaign for a fairer way whilst u are content to watch OF players shout and scream in the face of these great refs and dont get so much as a yellow card whilst hibs players get a straight red for swearing at a ref! . You can sit back and watch OF players foul as often as they want safe in the knowledge they will NEVER get sent off for persistant fouling whilst refs willingly send of hibs players and eagerly give penalties against them. I could list dozens of examples over the last 20 odd years of blatant bias whether you like it or not. Foreign refs would be appauled at the bias they would witness if they watched a few games and were able to give a neutral view on this. Scottish refs can be allowed back at top level games when they can prove they can handle the pressure

Fantasy. Show me your dozens of examples. Show me some evidence to back up your claim. Show me some statistics.

"Foreign refs would be appalled". On what evidence so you base this? Do you think at FIFA level foreign refs don't review what happens elsewhere? Scottish refs are regularly appointed to top level games.

I am not saying, and never would, that our refs are any better or worse than others. Some are generally good, others consistently baffling, but it is the same in evey league in the world. Just watch MOTD any week you fancy and let me know if you really think these full time professional refs make less mistakes. Was the FIFA referee who took the Maribor game at ER that much better - I recall giving him pelters.

Your opinion of our game is depressing beyond belief.

If you want to campaign, campaign for players and coaches to have an understanding of the laws, to not seek to con the refs (and you and me as paying punters) by deliberatly cheating.

Twa Cairpets

24-11-2010, 02:06 PM

I would probably agree their integrity is not in question.
They just cave I'm to pressure when they're reffing the old firm.

That would be lack of integrity...

johnrebus

24-11-2010, 02:11 PM

[QUOTE=TwoCarpets;2645493]Fantasy. Show me your dozens of examples. Show me some evidence to back up your claim. Show me some statistics.

"Foreign refs would be appalled". On what evidence so you base this? Do you think at FIFA level foreign refs don't review what happens elsewhere? Scottish refs are regularly appointed to top level games.

I am not saying, and never would, that our refs are any better or worse than others. Some are generally good, others consistently baffling, but it is the same in evey league in the world. Just watch MOTD any week you fancy and let me know if you really think these full time professional refs make less mistakes. Was the FIFA referee who took the Maribor game at ER that much better - I recall giving him pelters.

Your opinion of our game is depressing beyond belief.

Have to agree. :agree:

Was at the Blackburn V Chelsea game a few weeks back and the referee was pretty poor there too.

Not biased for/against either side, just a mediocre ref. Bad decision making, missing things, inconsistency, etc. etc.

Could have been watching a Scottish match - apart from the massive hike in the quality of the football itself.

But thats another story...........,

:cool2:

truehibernian

24-11-2010, 02:19 PM

I think for too long managers, and certainly the higher profile managers (and players) have got away with disrespect, foul language and general poor conduct towards referees.

There has to be a responsibility on the players and managers of all clubs to behave and first and foremost respect the ref's decisions, right or wrong. Rugby seem to have got it bang on, but again, the make up of people following rugby, and the fact that there is an acceptance of "what the ref says goes" has been part of that game for years.

A ref in the SPL instantly knows that what goes with the territory is up to 40,000 fans in Glasgow reffing the game for you, having to put up with vile abuse and swearing from players and management, get all the key decisions correct, and take the flak if wrong. I don't think they generally get the support of the players in games.

How often is David Weir, Lee McCulloch, Kenny Miller booked for abusive language towards a ref and harrassment of the ref after a decision goes against them. Same for Celtic.

Hibs players are also guilty of it but IMHO to a far lesser degree (as are every club).

For me it should be the captain on the pitch that is summoned to the ref whilst play is ongoing, if decisions need to be explained. Not surrounded by 10-12 players like a mob, baying for the ref's blood.

Punish the players who are abusive, financially penalise the managers who continue it from the sidelines, and if general conduct improves, the fans reactions also improve, and a firm degree of respect is established. Lennon should be absolutely hammered for his conduct at Tynie, and at Tannadice. You would expect that if you saw the same kind of behaviour in George Street on a Friday night.

We need braver referees, a far more resilient and disciplined SFA and SPL, and fairness acorss the board. Ref's though also have a duty to be more approachable and far more amenable to explaining their decisions, during and after games.

Dougie made a mistake. A big one, one that doesn't sit easy, but being humans, we learn from them and move on. No one gets hurt, at the end of the day Utd didn't concede a penalty that never was. Yes his integrity suffered damage. It can be repaired. The players and managers though need to take a step back and look at themselves in the mirror if they go to press so quickly and vehemently and question "integrity". I am sure Mr Lennon, Mr Smith, Mr Weir and co have all tried little dubious methods in the past to get players booked, stop play, time waste, etc.....for the benefit of their team.

northern-hibee

24-11-2010, 03:23 PM

Twa Cairpets

24-11-2010, 03:41 PM

Nish sent off at pittodrie for swearing, would that ever happen to an OF player, no thought not, what more evidence do you need? There are none so blind as those that do not want to see

And do you know precisely what he was sent off for or what precisely was said? No. You don't, so you make assumptions based on your own prejudice and also make a completely unsubstantiable allegation that if an OF player did it they wouldnt be offski - you cant know this, but decide to state it as uncontovertible fact.

I've also been at countless matches where Hibs players, and players of every other team have levelled a volley of abuse at officials who have taken no action. What bias is that then?

Is the blindness issue you refer to a major problem up in the land of the sheep?

northern-hibee

24-11-2010, 03:52 PM

And do you know precisely what he was sent off for or what precisely was said? No. You don't, so you make assumptions based on your own prejudice and also make a completely unsubstantiable allegation that if an OF player did it they wouldnt be offski - you cant know this, but decide to state it as uncontovertible fact.

I've also been at countless matches where Hibs players, and players of every other team have levelled a volley of abuse at officials who have taken no action. What bias is that then?

Is the blindness issue you refer to a major problem up in the land of the sheep?
Only when its snowing! The point is maybe the ref was right to show nish a red card we'll never know, but what we do know is that never in the history of the game has an OF player been given a straight red for swearing at the ref, what's the chances of that? I woke up and smelt the coffee a few years ago, hibs against celtic easter road. First minute bobo baldy terrible tackle from behind on hibs player only given a yellow, he then goes onto commit a further 26 fouls, about 6 were of similar type. Ref refused to send him off, even for persistant fouling, what other possible explaination can there be for this, even the commentator on the bbc was at a loss to explain why. The ref was afraid to send a celtic player off simple as that. I have another twenty or so examples but its pointless to go on as u are convinced to the contray

mjhibby

24-11-2010, 04:15 PM

Only when its snowing! The point is maybe the ref was right to show nish a red card we'll never know, but what we do know is that never in the history of the game has an OF player been given a straight red for swearing at the ref, what's the chances of that? I woke up and smelt the coffee a few years ago, hibs against celtic easter road. First minute bobo baldy terrible tackle from behind on hibs player only given a yellow, he then goes onto commit a further 26 fouls, about 6 were of similar type. Ref refused to send him off, even for persistant fouling, what other possible explaination can there be for this, even the commentator on the bbc was at a loss to explain why. The ref was afraid to send a celtic player off simple as that. I have another twenty or so examples but its pointless to go on as u are convinced to the contray

I think we can all concur that decisions have favoured the old firm down the years and indeed aberdeen when they ruled the roost which makes celtics moans even more ironic considering the number of decisions they have had down the years.I fully agree though with the strike because managers have got worse and worse at blaming refs for defeats and challenging them and of course celtic and lennons behaviour leaves me lost for words.Paranoia doesnt begin to cover it.
If you look at the decisions stoke have had against them including cattermoles lovely juggling of the ball on the line they have far more to moan about than celtic but pulis has kep a lid on it and things have turned for him and he has used the decisons as a positive.I hope celtic will now look inwards and sort lennon out but somehow i doubt it will happen and the west coast culture of thinking life ends at glasgow will continue.Im not quite sure what the refs expect to happen next but they certainly have achieved their aim of highlighting what they go through and the sfa as usual didnt see it coming and are now paying the price for not dealing with the problems that have lasted for months.
I dont imagine the refs realised how big a deal a strike would become with it on the news worldwide but they certainly have got people listening now and only clubs and managers will sort this out with them accepting the rub of the green and getting on with it.We may not agree with refs decisions but we have to accept them or there is no game.Hibs had a good goal chalked off against hamilton and the well had one chalked off against us.Thats the way it works and for gods sake lets just play the games and try not looking for excuses to blame refs for defeats.It would help if match of the day and sky sports didnt endlessly analyse decisons but just accept that the ref got it right or wrong and move on and hopefully we can talk about the game and not issues around it.rant over

Twa Cairpets

24-11-2010, 04:41 PM

Only when its snowing! The point is maybe the ref was right to show nish a red card we'll never know, but what we do know is that never in the history of the game has an OF player been given a straight red for swearing at the ref, what's the chances of that? I woke up and smelt the coffee a few years ago, hibs against celtic easter road. First minute bobo baldy terrible tackle from behind on hibs player only given a yellow, he then goes onto commit a further 26 fouls, about 6 were of similar type. Ref refused to send him off, even for persistant fouling, what other possible explaination can there be for this, even the commentator on the bbc was at a loss to explain why. The ref was afraid to send a celtic player off simple as that. I have another twenty or so examples but its pointless to go on as u are convinced to the contray

In the two instances you give above you are very certain about your facts. Are you sure an OF player has never been sent off for foul and abusive language? You might be right, but I suspect youre making it up. You only have to go back a few weeks to see their turd of a manager being sent sent to the stand for that exact offence.

Balde did 27 fouls in a game? One every 3 1/2 minutes? Sorry, I just dont believe that. I've been to pretty much every Hibs - Celtc game for the last 30 years, and I dont remember that happening, so I had a wee trawl. apologies for the long cut and paste from the Scotsman (http://news.scotsman.com/celticfc/Balde-leaves-Celtic-shorn.2465350.jp). If you can point me in the direction of the game you mean and show me that im wrong I'll be the first to say you're right.

Closest I could find was this, which does kind of defeat your argument.

HIBERNIAN 1-2 CELTIC 28 September 2003
By Paul Forsyth
EVEN before Bobo Balde’s sending-off with 20 minutes left, Hibs fans appeared to have hit the right note. "You’re not very clean," they chanted, to the strains of knees-up Mother Brown. Celtic, at least, know they have a dirty great problem to solve as they head into next week’s Old Firm derby.
They didn’t drop any points in this fraught fixture at Easter Road, but the straight red card issued to Celtic’s towering defender may yet cost them. While Balde can play against Lyon in Tuesday’s Champions League match in Glasgow, he will be suspended for Saturday’s visit to Ibrox, further exacerbating the club’s injury crisis at the back.

Balde was not thinking about the continued absence of Joos Valgaeren, Johan Mjallby, Stephen Crainey and Ulrik Laursen when he kicked out, Vieira-style, at Scott Brown. The Hibs substitute had bundled Balde to the deck, when he felt the defender’s studs somewhere around his armpit. "The bottom line is that you cannot be throwing about arms, legs or feet in retaliation," said Martin O’Neill.

Even if he watches the incident again on television, there is unlikely to be an appeal from the Celtic manager. Video evidence was not kind to Balde two seasons back when he was adjudged, in retrospect, to have elbowed Paul Fenwick at Easter Road. He was fined two weeks wages and handed a two-match ban. The referee who missed the offence that day was the same who spotted yesterday’s

jonny

24-11-2010, 04:55 PM

A deadline has been set for mid-day on thursday by the sfa for an agreement to be reached with the ref's for this weekends games.
Talks have been ongoing today and are supposedly "constructive". After todays talks the ref's are going to meet (tonight/tomorrow morning) and decide whether or not to officiate the games.

If they refuse, the sfa will look to bringing in foreign refs, however, given that Norwegian, Welsh and Icelandic refs have already refused to break the metaphoric picket line it's unlikely sufficient officials will be secured.

We should know by thursday afternoon whether or not theres going to be any games this weekend.

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 05:07 PM

A guy in the Sheffield United-Crystal Palace game got a straight red for dissent last weekend.

Thanks and I have to say anybody who squares up or shouts abusively to the ref should go. Refs should be miked up so the rest of us can here what is being said.

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 05:18 PM

I would probably agree their integrity is not in question.
They just cave I'm to pressure when they're reffing the old firm.

When we drew with Rangers with two games to go, season before last, Rangers could have won title at ER but didnt. Controversial incident was did the ball cross the line or not for a Rangers goal. If, as you say, they cave in why didnt the ref give it?

TV replays proved inconclusive but a Hibs player told me he thought it was in so surely, by your argument. the ref would have given it.

PS Never thought I would be backing ref's in games involving the OF!

basehibby

24-11-2010, 05:18 PM

And do you know precisely what he was sent off for or what precisely was said? No. You don't, so you make assumptions based on your own prejudice and also make a completely unsubstantiable allegation that if an OF player did it they wouldnt be offski - you cant know this, but decide to state it as uncontovertible fact.

I've also been at countless matches where Hibs players, and players of every other team have levelled a volley of abuse at officials who have taken no action. What bias is that then?

Is the blindness issue you refer to a major problem up in the land of the sheep?

You've got to admit he has something of a point though - even if it's not an intentional bias, the OF seem to get away with a lot more because the refs are more intimidated by them. It may be a lot to do with the personalities and reputations involved.

In a rare case of this working out for Hibs I remember being amazed at how few yellow cards Ray Wilkins picked up in his short stint with us - he was well past it and usually half an hour late for every tackle - but refs seemed to always give good old gentleman Ray, the "silky" veteran England international the benefit of the doubt for tackles that would have got any other Hibby an instant booking. I concluded that many refs were swayed/intimidated by Wilkin's reputation.

The OF know this of course and tailor their signing policy to suit - as well as engendering a culture whereby every player on the pitch is likely to harass the ref at every opportunity.

Moulin Yarns

24-11-2010, 05:37 PM

6995

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If you’re no happy, coz the ref was crappy, Go Complain!
If you canny take it, just coz you played s**t
You will thank your stars that you went to Go Complain
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frazeHFC

24-11-2010, 05:54 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9221836.stm
Trust it to have a picture of Hibs players moaning :rolleyes:

CabbageBoy

24-11-2010, 05:55 PM

Which 2 clubs have the most to lose this weekend by games being cancelled? Hertz are due money for their fixture being on TV at a time when they have a number of away games in a row, before they start being hit by Saturday afternoon shopping syndrome. Would a rearranged fixture be on the TV? And Celtc have a home game; a rearranged fixture on a Tuesday in December/January is unlikely to attract 60,000 odd, so even 20k off the gate is the best part of half a million pounds.

Pretty likely that the clubs can be persuaded to say something along the lines of 'Concerns about individual decisions, not calling all refs into disrepute', to which SFA respond with 'Will ask Henry McLeish to look at this too' and we can get on and play the game. Would guess that a shake-up will involve Dallas going too, and MacDonald not getting a high profile game again.

northern-hibee

24-11-2010, 06:33 PM

In the two instances you give above you are very certain about your facts. Are you sure an OF player has never been sent off for foul and abusive language? You might be right, but I suspect youre making it up. You only have to go back a few weeks to see their turd of a manager being sent sent to the stand for that exact offence.

Balde did 27 fouls in a game? One every 3 1/2 minutes? Sorry, I just dont believe that. I've been to pretty much every Hibs - Celtc game for the last 30 years, and I dont remember that happening, so I had a wee trawl. apologies for the long cut and paste from the Scotsman (http://news.scotsman.com/celticfc/Balde-leaves-Celtic-shorn.2465350.jp). If you can point me in the direction of the game you mean and show me that im wrong I'll be the first to say you're right.

Closest I could find was this, which does kind of defeat your argument.

Nope wrong again, pretty sure it was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/6178212.stm

Must have been one you missed as I certainly remember it for the reasons listed earlier. Your good at trawling thro stats tho, maybe you could rustle up an instance, say in living memory when an OF player has received a straight red for swearing at the ref?

greenginger

24-11-2010, 07:02 PM

Nope wrong again, pretty sure it was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/6178212.stm

Must have been one you missed as I certainly remember it for the reasons listed earlier. Your good at trawling thro stats tho, maybe you could rustle up an instance, say in living memory when an OF player has received a straight red for swearing at the ref?

I remember back in the seventies Turnbull getting hawled up before the Beaks for complaining to a ref about this.

It went something like this. Eddie has a word with the ref before the start of a Hibs vs Rangers game at ER. He says to the Ref " Why do you allow Rangers players to curse and swear at you and take no action because if it were his players cursing they would be cautioned. "

The ref says nothing but reports Turnbull for insulting behavior to an official.

Turnbull tells the beaks that is exactly what he said because it was true.

Very good say the Beaks £200 Fine and don't do it again.

Somethings never seem to change, but may'be this time the Refs will see the Ugly sisters for what they are --- A cancer on our sport !

Danderhall Hibs

24-11-2010, 07:42 PM

northern-hibee

24-11-2010, 07:53 PM

That was the game when Lennon should've had a 2nd yellow for going head to head with Brown but the ref only saw Brown going head to head with Lennon so booked Brown and let Lennon play on.

His view must've been blocked or something...

Yes, you're right, there are so many examples over the years of such similar injustices it is impossible to deny the existance of bias.

matty_f

24-11-2010, 08:24 PM

It's definitely impossible to deny it.I just think refs from all different persuasions,backgrounds etc .. Start games with genuine good intentions but get overwhelmed by the whole pressure thing of irrationally thinking"If in doubt back the:bitchy: OF team" .. And it goes right through the game.. Neutral commentators saying things like .. If Rangers want to win this game they'd better buck up. Assuming that the status quo is the Rangers should win!
Can anyone imagine a radio or telly commentor EVER saying .. Hibs will be very disappointed with their first half performance against Rangers .There will be a few harsh words in their dressing room at half time.They'll have to be more clinical with their finishing if they're going to get the three points.

:top marks

Kaiser1962

24-11-2010, 09:30 PM

it was actually Lewis and confirmed by Nid. If the ref didnt give it then this is the exception that disproves the rule. However there appears to no point continuing this. What is interesting is, despite the "evidence" of corruption and bias over 80% of this board support the ref's. I also think that you will find that is pretty indicative of most clubs (outwith OF and Yams)
Even Rangers are pretty quiet in all this.

That was Chisholm? The ref probably didn't give cos of his angle and the linesman didn't cos he didn't have a clear view cos of all the bodies in the box.From my seat in the West,I wouldn't have been surprised if the goal was given.
I would have to say though .. That was an exception ..The more examples of different rules for the OF that this thread is now throwing up, I'm starting to wonder...

ScottB

24-11-2010, 11:20 PM

Good to see the Catholic Church weighing in on this. Utter nonsense!

As for the email supposedly sent by Dallas, Christ how many folk were sharing that joke photo! I loved them describing it as one of the worst examples of sectarianism. Obviously they don't pay much attention to the good Catholics at Parkhead on a regular basis then?

This is getting ridiculous, and is showing nothing other than the complete lack of leadership at the SFA and SPL, a firm hand could have ended this weeks ago.

Kaiser1962

25-11-2010, 06:19 AM

Read my post again.

It was Chisholm.i.e .. It was Chisholm who made the "goal line clearance" .It was at the North Stand End.. I remember it clearly. We might be talking about a different match? Unlikely though..

matty_f

25-11-2010, 06:57 AM

Kaiser1962

25-11-2010, 07:03 AM

Ah...the Catholic Church. I am pleased they took the time to comment as they have no more serious matters to contend with. After all scottish referees sense of humour is a much more serious matter than shielding child abusers from the law, or colluding with Nazi's to rob the Jews amongst many, many other things.

Just in case I'll add this :greengrin

Good to see the Catholic Church weighing in on this. Utter nonsense!

As for the email supposedly sent by Dallas, Christ how many folk were sharing that joke photo! I loved them describing it as one of the worst examples of sectarianism. Obviously they don't pay much attention to the good Catholics at Parkhead on a regular basis then?

This is getting ridiculous, and is showing nothing other than the complete lack of leadership at the SFA and SPL, a firm hand could have ended this weeks ago.

Green_one

25-11-2010, 07:22 AM

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 08:39 AM

Nope wrong again, pretty sure it was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/6178212.stm

Must have been one you missed as I certainly remember it for the reasons listed earlier. Your good at trawling thro stats tho, maybe you could rustle up an instance, say in living memory when an OF player has received a straight red for swearing at the ref?

No, I was there. I just dont recall a Balde foul every 3 1/2 minutes you claim as fact. The report you link to doesnt even mention this litany of outrage he committed. (By the way, you may well be correct - he maybe could well have been booked again or sent off, but what you state as fact (and therefore presumably believe) just is not true. You've also chosen to ignore the proof from the previous game regarding Balde being sent off, presumably becuase it doesnt fit with your world view.

As for the your request for me to trawl to find evidence of red cards. There is a maxim in science that states "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You're the one making the claim, you provide the evidence.

Gettin' Auld

25-11-2010, 08:41 AM

Brian McGinlay's Thoughts (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2010/11/23/ref-crisis-this-would-never-have-happened-if-sfa-had-the-bottle-to-stand-up-to-celtic-86908-22733472/)

blackpoolhibs

25-11-2010, 08:58 AM

What annoys me about the outrage on the Dallas/Pope email was that the Celtc fans make the assumption that because he's found that funny that he'd be anti-Celtc.:confused:

:agree: I got that email round about the same time as the popes visit. I laughed like most people did, but not once did i think it was aimed at celtc. Now thats paranoia in a nutshell.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 09:03 AM

Nope wrong again, pretty sure it was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/6178212.stm

Must have been one you missed as I certainly remember it for the reasons listed earlier. Your good at trawling thro stats tho, maybe you could rustle up an instance, say in living memory when an OF player has received a straight red for swearing at the ref?

With a couple of minutes to kill, I had a look. guess who I found as being red csrded for foul and abusive language? None other than the delightful Mr Lennon (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FOOTBALL%3A+Blues+joy+at+red+mist%3B+RANGERS...... ....3...-a0135302884).

Another one - a secong yellow for dissent - popped up for Rangers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/8257439.stm)
McDonald issued Bougherra with a yellow card following a challenge on Lukas Jutkiewicz and the former Charlton man lost his temper then verbally abused the ref, earning a second yellow.

So your claim that never once in the history of Scottish football has it ever happened is also shown to be a lie. Maybe you should be forced to quit your role as a poster on Hibs.net, a la Dougie McDonald:wink:

Incidentallly, "Foul and Abusive" language doesnt exist as an offence anymore. It was replaced a number of years ago with "using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures"

blackpoolhibs

25-11-2010, 09:05 AM

Talksport just announced the games will be off if the SFA cant get other refs to do the games, as the Scottish refs have refused to back down. And are striking this weekend.

MB62

25-11-2010, 09:24 AM

According to BBC the referees strike WILL go ahead on Saturday. Looks like the SFA will be looking at bringing in scabs if we are to get our game played :boo hoo:

H18sry

25-11-2010, 09:31 AM

According to BBC the referees strike WILL go ahead on Saturday. Looks like the SFA will be looking at bringing in scabs to if we are to get our game played :boo hoo:

Bring them in, the strike is not a strike as such as it does not conform to rules, it is just a with holding of labour .

johnrebus

25-11-2010, 09:31 AM

blackpoolhibs

25-11-2010, 09:43 AM

According to BBC the referees strike WILL go ahead on Saturday. Looks like the SFA will be looking at bringing in scabs to if we are to get our game played :boo hoo:

I'd imagine the ref's will stick together, and not want to go against their members. I cant see anyone standing in for them?

northern-hibee

25-11-2010, 09:43 AM

No, I was there. I just dont recall a Balde foul every 3 1/2 minutes you claim as fact. The report you link to doesnt even mention this litany of outrage he committed. (By the way, you may well be correct - he maybe could well have been booked again or sent off, but what you state as fact (and therefore presumably believe) just is not true. You've also chosen to ignore the proof from the previous game regarding Balde being sent off, presumably becuase it doesnt fit with your world view.

As for the your request for me to trawl to find evidence of red cards. There is a maxim in science that states "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You're the one making the claim, you provide the evidence.
I have provided loads of evidence, you choose to eithers not believe it or try to justify the blatant bias. The other quote wasn't me and in any case i was talking about straight reds. Happy trawling trying to defend you beloved refs, just dont dare whine when we are cheated by them in similar circumstances as to the many i have detailed in this thread

DCI Gene Hunt

25-11-2010, 10:28 AM

Good to see the refs standing firm, hopefully this will finally put a stop to this nonsense and help nip it in the bud once and for all.

A shame if our games don't go ahead mind you, sadly a necessity to stamp this pitiful saga out.

G

Kaiser1962

25-11-2010, 10:33 AM

It was pointed out recently that the sure sign that a forum thread has reached its lowest point when someone mentions Hitler or the Nazis. It is almost an internet rule. Well done. :rolleyes:

Could mention Hitler as well if you want but as the thread is about "integrity" I felt it was a valid point. Thanks anyway.:greengrin

Kaiser1962

25-11-2010, 10:35 AM

I'm sure it was Chisolm. He was interviewed after the match too and gave a diplomatic response.

I'm sure your right about Chisholm but I never mentioned Chisholm or a newspaper interview just repeated what I was told.

DCI Gene Hunt

25-11-2010, 10:43 AM

I think they've made their point(whatever it is)and actually causing chaos this week end won't help them...

Perhaps.

The point is that the refs (and most of the rest of us) are sick of all the crap that gets flung their way when Celtic/Neil Lennon don't get it all their way and start whinging like bairns, trying to destroy personal reputations/careers and winding up their idiot supporters so much that the poor refs' families start getting threatened. All because a penalty was (rightly) retracted.

G

ionahibby

25-11-2010, 11:06 AM

I'd imagine the ref's will stick together, and not want to go against their members. I cant see anyone standing in for them?

Sfa have assured all spl clubs games will go ahead according to bbc scotland,and that they supect other divisions will be postponed!

blackpoolhibs

25-11-2010, 11:06 AM

I think they've made their point(whatever it is)and actually causing chaos this week end won't help them...

I disagree, if they didn't go through with their threats imho nothing would have changed. Unless things are seen to have changed, what was the point in all this?

They need the SFA to come out with a set of new rules, rules that protect the ref's. Things cant carry on as they have been. We are never going to have referee's from another country. This lot are here for the long term, they need to know they can ref a game without their integrity being questioned every 5 minutes.

They need to know clubs players and managers are going to respect them, and understand they are not perfect, and will make mistakes. All their screaming in the refs faces does is fuel the supporters hatred, and adds to the pressure they have every week. Their needs to be a complete turn around in behaviour from the players and some managers. Thats why i believe they have to go ahead with this strike.

What happens each and every Saturday in scotland, at football grounds throughout the country, cant carry on. Its come to a head now, we have a chance to change the way football has gone forever.

Broken Gnome

25-11-2010, 11:09 AM

snooky

25-11-2010, 11:23 AM

I disagree, if they didn't go through with their threats imho nothing would have changed. Unless things are seen to have changed, what was the point in all this?

They need the SFA to come out with a set of new rules, rules that protect the ref's. Things cant carry on as they have been. We are never going to have referee's from another country. This lot are here for the long term, they need to know they can ref a game without their integrity being questioned every 5 minutes.

They need to know clubs players and managers are going to respect them, and understand they are not perfect, and will make mistakes. All their screaming in the refs faces does is fuel the supporters hatred, and adds to the pressure they have every week. There needs to be a complete turn around in behaviour from the players and some managers. Thats why i believe they have to go ahead with this strike.

What happens each and every Saturday in scotland, at football grounds throughout the country, cant carry on. Its come to a head now, we have a chance to change the way football has gone forever.

This is the whole crux of the matter. The cheating and intimidation in the game today has reached ridiculous proportions. Diving, feigning injury, jersey pulling, etc. It's time the players and managers cleaned up their act.
A referee's job is hard enough as it is without all the extra b/s.
There should be more onus on punishing the cheats. I'd even go as far as booking players who call for throw-ins to their own sides when it's blatently obvious to all that they put it out.

For the record, I can remember when football was called "A game played by gentlemen & watched by hooligans" - the definition of Rugby was, of course, the reverse.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 11:27 AM

I have provided loads of evidence, you choose to eithers not believe it or try to justify the blatant bias. The other quote wasn't me and in any case i was talking about straight reds. Happy trawling trying to defend you beloved refs, just dont dare whine when we are cheated by them in similar circumstances as to the many i have detailed in this thread

Well, you haven't provided any evidence actually have you? Chucking in a couple of anecdotes which I have shown up to be total bollox is hardly evidence is it. (Incidentally, the Bougherra quote was lifted from the article in the link to save you the time to read through).

Every single point you've made has been based solely on your prejudices and blinkered view rather than on any actual, genuine evidence - shouting loudly doesnt make your argument stronger. If you can provide any evidence in the modern game of systematic bias by referees in general, or a particular individual, then I'll happily go "fair enough", and skulk away in despair with my tail between my legs. I suspect nothing presented by way of evidence to you will change your mind, which puts you firmly in the paranoid camp with Vlad, Lennon, Reid, McGhoo and the Celtc support for company.

If you'd actually cared to read the points I made, I've gone to some lengths to agree that our refs arent any better or worse than anywhere else, and have exactly the same fallibility as anyone, so "the defending your beloved refs" line is basically just a cheap straw-man playground jibe really.

But then chucking in something like that rather than actually thinking about it is much easier isn't it?

By the way, I am absolutely sure that we will be at the receiving end of decisions I think are wrong, against the OF and everyone else, and I'll shout and yell. Just like I did against Motherwell.

Until the TV showed I was wrong.

scoopyboy

25-11-2010, 11:29 AM

Have they explained how?

Not that I'm aware of but I would imagine renting six refs from abroad for the 6 SPL fixtures which the SFA will have to pay out their own coffers as they are contracted to supply the SPL.

Finance and lack of an SFL contract will mean the SFL fixtures will be cancelled.

Thinking about it they could get away with 4 foreign refs, two of the four could also referee on the Sunday.

Danderhall Hibs

25-11-2010, 11:47 AM

See if the clubs agreed could they use qualifieds refs from the clubs? There are bound to be some qualified refs at every club coaching the under 18s or something?

Danderhall Hibs

25-11-2010, 11:48 AM

If you'd actually cared to read the points I made, I've gone to some lengths to agree that our refs arent any better or worse than anywhere else, and have exactly the same fallibility as anyone, so "the defending your beloved refs" line is basically just a cheap straw-man playground jibe really.

If they're not worse than they used to be or the same as everywhere else how come we don't have any refs good enought to go to the World Cup anymore?

PaulSmith

25-11-2010, 11:55 AM

Not that I'm aware of but I would imagine renting six refs from abroad for the 6 SPL fixtures which the SFA will have to pay out their own coffers as they are contracted to supply the SPL.

Finance and lack of an SFL contract will mean the SFL fixtures will be cancelled.

Thinking about it they could get away with 4 foreign refs, two of the four could also referee on the Sunday.

6 games but they'll need 4 officials, unless we have SFA refs at g3 running the line and being 4th official.
Could cause almighty problems and bad blood.

Dutch referees on Thursday followed those in Iceland and Norway in rejecting the SFA's approach to take charge of weekend matches, with Irish, Welsh and Swedish officials having indicated that they too would be unwilling to provide cover.

So where are these guys coming from, this could be hilarous on Saturday...if anyone does those spread bets where you predict how many booking and sending offs then get your money on

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 12:04 PM

If they're not worse than they used to be or the same as everywhere else how come we don't have any refs good enought to go to the World Cup anymore?

What an irrelevant post.

There was a referee from Guatemala but none from Netherlands. There was a guy from the Seychelles but no Greek. Only one referee from all of Eastern Europe, but one from Mali. One from England but two from New Zealand. Lets fly those boys over every week, because NZ is famed as such a footballing hotbed.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 12:06 PM

6 games but they'll need 4 officials, unless we have SFA refs at g3 running the line and being 4th official.
Could cause almighty problems and bad blood.

Dutch referees on Thursday followed those in Iceland and Norway in rejecting the SFA's approach to take charge of weekend matches, with Irish, Welsh and Swedish officials having indicated that they too would be unwilling to provide cover.

So where are these guys coming from, this could be hilarous on Saturday...if anyone does those spread bets where you predict how many booking and sending offs then get your money on

I'd be astonished if a G3 or lower ref will take a game or run the line. It would absolutely kill their progression stone dead.

Danderhall Hibs

25-11-2010, 12:20 PM

What an irrelevant post.

There was a referee from Guatemala but none from Netherlands. There was a guy from the Seychelles but no Greek. Only one referee from all of Eastern Europe, but one from Mali. One from England but two from New Zealand. Lets fly those boys over every week, because NZ is famed as such a footballing hotbed.

How else can we measure who the best refs are if not at the World Cup? We used to have refs going now we don't. Seems like we've got worse.

Danderhall Hibs

25-11-2010, 12:20 PM

I'd be astonished if a G3 or lower ref will take a game or run the line. It would absolutely kill their progression stone dead.

How? Would it not help them progress faster?

Geo_1875

25-11-2010, 12:21 PM

I think it may just be coincidence, but the SFA website does not have an email address for Hugh Dallas the referee supremo. I wonder if it was removed to stop people contacting him directly about the referees strike? :devil:

Moulin Yarns

25-11-2010, 12:21 PM

I'd be astonished if a G3 or lower ref will take a game or run the line. It would absolutely kill their progression stone dead.

How many refs on here willing to take a game?? :greengrin

Dashing Bob S

25-11-2010, 12:23 PM

Great post from Blackpool. I think there is too much money in the game, thus pressure on managers and players, who conversely come over as spoilt, petulant ********s. When a decision goes against then you would think that the ref had slaughtered their first born. Reacting like that is our job in the stands. They are pros and getting paid for it, they should behave.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 12:26 PM

How else can we measure who the best refs are if not at the World Cup? We used to have refs going now we don't. Seems like we've got worse.

Not the best measure at all. Are you seriously suggesting that the three or four refs from Africa or concacaf are better than all the refs in Spain, England, Germany, France - even Scotland. Appointments are geo-political, not based on refs ability.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 12:27 PM

How? Would it not help them progress faster?

You're either at the wind up or very naive.

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 12:27 PM

Or maybe he has been removed from office, or perhaps resigned?

hibs0666

25-11-2010, 12:31 PM

Kaiser1962

25-11-2010, 12:38 PM

You are right this is the crux of the matter. As I mentioned earlier my prowess was at rugby where I played in the front row at district level and we used to say that certain referees ruined a good game of rugby. During the game there would be a few mutterings under your breath but no actual dissent. It would not have been tolerated by the referee nor the SRU and the club, fearful of SRU punishment totally supported, publicly at least, the referee's stance on absolutely anything in the full knowledge this would be supported by the SRU. During the actual match only the captain was allowed to approach the ref who, for his part, talked constantly to players of both sides explaining decisions and shouting at players who were about to go wandering offside. The Football authorities have tried to adapt the advantage rule but made a pigs ear of it hence the debacle over Nani the other week.
Sending off's were rare and anyone sent off was looking at the rest of the season (at least) watching from the sidelines and an utter plethora of form filling courtesy of the SRU. After the games both sides usually got together in the clubrooms for a dinner and were joined by the ref (touch judges at club level were provided by the host club).
We could learn a lot from rugby as to how to conduct ourselves before, during and after games.

This is the whole crux of the matter. The cheating and intimidation in the game today has reached ridiculous proportions. Diving, feigning injury, jersey pulling, etc. It's time the players and managers cleaned up their act.
A referee's job is hard enough as it is without all the extra b/s.
There should be more onus on punishing the cheats. I'd even go as far as booking players who call for throw-ins to their own sides when it's blatently obvious to all that they put it out.

For the record, I can remember when football was called "A game played by gentlemen & watched by hooligans" - the definition of Rugby was, of course, the reverse.

Don Giovanni

25-11-2010, 12:39 PM

This whole situation is an absolute disgrace. The standard of Scottish football is as poor as its been in a long, long time and we can ill afford this farce.

Unfortunately, I cannot see how this strike can be circumvented. If our Scottish referees are not prepared to officiate this weekends games, I can't imagine too many officials from abroad are willing to break the picket.

I think we will suffer a football free weekend I'm afraid...

As for the authorities, SPL&SFA, heads should roll (they won't, of course, but they should). This fiasco hasn't just happened "on their watch" the administrators gross mismanagement of the situation has been integral to it reaching this point.
They failed to act when Celticfootballclub were clearly bringing the game into disrepute from top to bottom (Reid, Lennon, Hooper). Thier spineless inaction encouraged the situation to spin out of control (afterall, the same organisations weren't so slow to act as judge, jury and executioner when our neighbours stepped out of line - laugh as we might at Hearts misfortune, the uneven treatment of two member clubs is also a disgrace).
The authorities then failed to reconcile the situation and if they cannot give the referees the guarantees they seek, who is to say this this weekends fixtures will be the only ones affected?

Ironically, the one organisation who should probably escape criticism (SFL) may well suffer most. Thier member clubs (think Dundee, Livi, Clyde) are among the least likely to be able to cope with altered cash flow and loss of income. Their premier cup competition may well be cancelled and television deal(s) jeopardised.

The whole thing stinks. It's grossly unfair that we should all carry the can for Celtcs pathetic paranoia and the incredibly incompetent inaction of our games so-called guiding lights (Peat, Doncaster and the rest of the passengers on Scottish footballs gravy train(s)).

Scottish fitba' is dyin' on it's erse. Unless we have some revolutionary plan to knock everything down and start again, we could do without these clowns, and the calamity they have fostered, hastening it along...

HibbyAndy

25-11-2010, 12:41 PM

Spl games are on..Refs from outside Scotland brought in.

sahib

25-11-2010, 12:41 PM

Why don't the refs just resign.
If you give referees total immunuty from criticism then you are giving a blanket of protection for potential corruption.
On the other hand the pressure on referees brought by Celtic and Rangers means teams like us will rarely get the benefit of the doubt. It boils down to trust and integrity and these are qualities that are sadly missing from today's society.

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 12:41 PM

If they do strike at the weekend, what happens the following week?

Do they strike again? or will it be back to business as usual?

blackpoolhibs

25-11-2010, 12:43 PM

Spl games are on..Refs from outside Scotland brought in.

Thats a surprise, i did not think any ref from outside would have done that.

PaulSmith

25-11-2010, 12:45 PM

I'd be astonished if a G3 or lower ref will take a game or run the line. It would absolutely kill their progression stone dead.

Almost all current asst refs are G3 or SAR.

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 12:48 PM

Ritchie

25-11-2010, 12:48 PM

Thats a surprise, i did not think any ref from outside would have done that.

"scab scab scab scab!!"

SidBurns

25-11-2010, 01:01 PM

If they do strike at the weekend, what happens the following week?

Do they strike again? or will it be back to business as usual?

Back to work next weekend but the looks/sounds of it. Wish it were going down to all levels, could do with a weekend off! :greengrin

What a stupid comment from a Politician though:-

Scottish National Party MP Peter Wishart then called for all referees in Scotland to be forced to reveal their allegiance to a particular team, a suggestion backed by Celtic chairman John Reid.

Imagine how much carnage that would cause!?!?!?!

Jim44

25-11-2010, 01:03 PM

Thats a surprise, i did not think any ref from outside would have done that.

"scab scab scab scab!!"

I'm amazed that there is no united front from all referess worldwide. The game here is heading for a major fall from grace as I don't see the referees backing down for the following weekend. Tension among themselves and other counties will increase, Celtic won't back down, the SFA will stand their ground and 'jokester', Dallas will not be sacked........................a huge bloody mess. I wonder if Celtic are trying to work their ticket out of the Scottish game? If so, will England relent and allow them to go South?

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 01:13 PM

Back to work next weekend but the looks/sounds of it. Wish it were going down to all levels, could do with a weekend off! :greengrin

What a stupid comment from a Politician though:-

Scottish National Party MP Peter Wishart then called for all referees in Scotland to be forced to reveal their allegiance to a particular team, a suggestion backed by Celtic chairman John Reid.

Imagine how much carnage that would cause!?!?!?!

If they go back to work the following week, what exactly will they have acheived? They will have made enormous fools of themselves.

Peter Wishart is correct in my opinion.

Golden Bear

25-11-2010, 01:20 PM

If they go back to work the following week, what exactly will they have acheived? They will have made enormous fools of themselves.

Peter Wishart is correct in my opinion.

As have the SFA in not taking action agains Celtic in particular.

H18sry

25-11-2010, 01:25 PM

STUC backing the refs http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9221836.stm

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 01:30 PM

As have the SFA in not taking action agains Celtic in particular.

Dallas and McDonald have probably put paid to that.

greenginger

25-11-2010, 01:32 PM

......................a huge bloody mess. I wonder if Celtic are trying to work their ticket out of the Scottish game? If so, will England relent and allow them to go South?[/QUOTE]

I bet the English Refs are really looking forward to the death threats and having their families abused in the street by the self proclaimed best fans in the world.

CentreLine

25-11-2010, 01:39 PM

I'm amazed that there is no united front from all referess worldwide. The game here is heading for a major fall from grace as I don't see the referees backing down for the following weekend. Tension among themselves and other counties will increase, Celtic won't back down, the SFA will stand their ground and 'jokester', Dallas will not be sacked........................a huge bloody mess. I wonder if Celtic are trying to work their ticket out of the Scottish game? If so, will England relent and allow them to go South?

Almost certainly. IMO this has nothing to do with Scottish referees it has everything to do with celtic making a case that they cannot get a "fair deal" in the scottish game and should be allowed to play wherever they choose i.e. england. They are in the process of changing, or at least manipulating, their identity to that end (give or take the odd poppy protest). I think that is part of the reason that we have seen the SFA on the back foot trying to decide how best to deal with this without seeing a challenge in court.

In short I believe that celtic football club believe they can destroy Scottish football for their own selfish intent.

As for me I can't see the back of them quickly enough so long as they uproot and move completely to the country of their choosing. I see the next stage being a Bosman style court case where celtic claim the right to freedom of movement anywhere within the EC and try to force the hand of UEFA and FIFA. All to the damage of the game of football.

I firmly believe Scottish football would be better off without either of the OF if only they would uproot and move out of this country all together. Unfortunaletly they have no significant identity or relavance outside of Scotland, perhaps even outside of Glasgow. "Among the biggest clubs in the world?" Aye right!

In the real world it is unlikely they will find a place prepared to take the bagage that goes with them with the possible exception of Ireland. Now there's a thought, but given that there are such good things happening toward peace in Ireland I don't see them (north or south) wanting them either. Maybe one should play in the north and one in the south then the only time they would have the chance to meet would be in European competition. Hmmmm?

The SFA should be taking the stringest possible action against celtic and any other club that chips in, including hahahahearts, instead of doing SFA

basehibby

25-11-2010, 01:43 PM

If they go back to work the following week, what exactly will they have acheived? They will have made enormous fools of themselves.

Peter Wishart is correct in my opinion.

From what I can gather everyone that cares and plenty who don't already know what teams which refs supported as a lad - I'm forever hearing on here that so and so Ref's a Hibby or so and so's a Hun!

FWIW it shouldn't matter what team a ref supported as they should be in it to ensure fair play accross the board and should have all traces of partisanship battered out of them before they get anywhere near the top level.

One thing I WOULD find interesting though is what areas top grade refs come from - there has always been a west coast bias in Scottish Football and I'd like to see whether that extends into the training structures and promotion of the game's officials.

sambajustice

25-11-2010, 01:44 PM

from the sellick website...

Newsroom Staff
THE Scottish Football Association has confirmed that agreement has been reached with several European National Associations to provide match officials in order to ensure that fixtures in the Scottish Premier League go ahead as normal this weekend.

JimBHibees

25-11-2010, 01:44 PM

the Herald was reporting this morning that 3 Dutch refs had been lined up

Billy Whizz

25-11-2010, 01:47 PM

the Herald was reporting this morning that 3 Dutch refs had been lined up

I'll wait until it officially appears on the Hibs website

Dundee Utd confirming on their webiste that their game is on

northern-hibee

25-11-2010, 01:51 PM

Well, you haven't provided any evidence actually have you? Chucking in a couple of anecdotes which I have shown up to be total bollox is hardly evidence is it. (Incidentally, the Bougherra quote was lifted from the article in the link to save you the time to read through).

Every single point you've made has been based solely on your prejudices and blinkered view rather than on any actual, genuine evidence - shouting loudly doesnt make your argument stronger. If you can provide any evidence in the modern game of systematic bias by referees in general, or a particular individual, then I'll happily go "fair enough", and skulk away in despair with my tail between my legs. I suspect nothing presented by way of evidence to you will change your mind, which puts you firmly in the paranoid camp with Vlad, Lennon, Reid, McGhoo and the Celtc support for company.

If you'd actually cared to read the points I made, I've gone to some lengths to agree that our refs arent any better or worse than anywhere else, and have exactly the same fallibility as anyone, so "the defending your beloved refs" line is basically just a cheap straw-man playground jibe really.

But then chucking in something like that rather than actually thinking about it is much easier isn't it?

By the way, I am absolutely sure that we will be at the receiving end of decisions I think are wrong, against the OF and everyone else, and I'll shout and yell. Just like I did against Motherwell.

Until the TV showed I was wrong.
I provided lots and none of its bollox, believe what u want, i realise now you are only debating this obvious point for an arguement. Either that, or you have never been to a hibs/celtic or hibs/rangers game in your life. Think we should leave it at that and let the thread progress

greenginger

25-11-2010, 01:53 PM

They could just buy Carlise Utd F C. --- Change their name to Carlise Celtic for a couple of years before dropping the Carlise bit.

All they would need was a couple of promotions and they are in the Promised Land.

Of course if they failed to get promotion it would be because of a Conspiracy against them ETC ETC ETC :yawn:

JimBHibees

25-11-2010, 01:54 PM

I'll wait until it officially appears on the Hibs website

Dundee Utd confirming on their webiste that their game is on

BBC News at lunchtime interviewed Stuart Regan who said refs were lined up for all SPL games.

Billy Whizz

25-11-2010, 01:57 PM

BBC News at lunchtime interviewed Stuart Regan who said refs were lined up for all SPL games.

Now on SPL Website confirming, although still waiting on a note from Hibs
http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=9683

matty_f

25-11-2010, 01:58 PM

Can some kind soul please post up some translations of the "Who's the b**tard in the black?" song, please. Just in case, like.:greengrin

Lucius Apuleius

25-11-2010, 02:11 PM

I guess a new level of paranoia will be reached when celtc find out they have scabbed in the black. Or will it be the refs who have been scabbed in the black? Confusing. Booger em all.

Frazerbob

25-11-2010, 02:12 PM

This could actually be very interesting. I wonder what the reaction will be from the Scottish refs, Celtc, the press and all fans to 6 perfectly refereed games from Johnny Foreigner or alternatively (and more likely) if any controversial decisions are made.

Keith_M

25-11-2010, 02:47 PM

I wonder if something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhq8l09RAAM) could happen this weekend. :greengrin

By the way, if she's refereeing our game, just remember I saw her first!!

Billy Whizz

25-11-2010, 02:47 PM

Game on.
Now on "Hibs" official site

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20101125/spl-matches-to-go-ahead_2262950_2230347

Keith_M

25-11-2010, 02:51 PM

Can some kind soul please post up some translations of the "Who's the b**tard in the black?" song, please. Just in case, like.:greengrin

If they're german, you just chant "Hoyzer, Hoyzer,..."*.

See Here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/referee-in-german-football-scandal-to-name-bribed-players-488818.html)

* Pronounced "Hoytser"

PaulSmith

25-11-2010, 02:53 PM

Statement from category 1 referees via Press Association

As indicated earlier this week, at Sunday's scheduled SFA monthly meeting of category one officials it was decided unanimously to withdraw availability for appointment this weekend 27/28 November. The meeting concluded that the incessant and adverse nature of recent comments on referees had placed intolerable pressures on personal and professional lives and that statements questioning honesty and integrity aimed across refereeing in general had led to an unprecedented level of abuse and genuine concerns for safety and for the ability to carry out normal family and business commitments. Last night, all category one referees ratified their original decision.

It was also stated at the time that the group appreciated the full impact this decision will have on fans this weekend and for that reason it was not taken lightly. However, it was believed to be necessary in the current climate and that it will hopefully put an end to the more extreme attacks on referees.

It was not a "bargaining chip" aimed at soliciting "quick fixes or deals". It was instead a genuine call for a moment of reflection by all who love the game in Scotland and a desire to see a real and fundamental re-appraisal of football's and society's relationship with its referees. The group felt this was needed for the good of the game overall and made it clear to all on Monday that this was not an industrial relations dispute that could be speedily negotiated away to avert "action". The category one officials have welcomed the level of support received from fellow officials both at home and internationally, as well as that from others within the game and wider Scottish life.

Discussions took place this week with the SFA and leagues and constructive progress was made on mainly long-term objectives which, if achievable, will begin a proper process to underpin the integrity and standing of referees in this country. After this weekend, the referees will return to the field and will continue dialogue with the governing body to develop well-thought through and meaningful measures in an environment of mutual respect.

BoltonHibee

25-11-2010, 03:13 PM

I wonder if something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhq8l09RAAM) could happen this weekend. :greengrin

By the way, if she's refereeing our game, just remember I saw her first!!

I didn't know FIFA had a full stop at the end.....

bawheid

25-11-2010, 03:13 PM

This whole saga has shown Scotland (and particularly the west of Scotland) up to be the pathetic backwater it is.

I hope there are countless controversial decisions this weekend.

Hibee Daz

25-11-2010, 03:26 PM

Can some kind soul please post up some translations of the "Who's the b**tard in the black?" song, please. Just in case, like.:greengrin

Lets just hope they interpret it in the correct way and don't think we're a bunch of racist :asshole:'s though!

Hibee Daz

25-11-2010, 03:39 PM

This whole saga has shown Scotland (and particularly the west of Scotland) up to be the pathetic backwater it is.

I hope there are countless controversial decisions this weekend.

:agree: They are indeed a red face for the whole of Scotland and what pisses me off even more is that they actually don't give a :monkey:'s.

Whether they like it or not they are a Scottish team and therefore they should be obligated too showing all aspects of the Scottish game in the best possible light, however hard that may be!:grr:

lucky

25-11-2010, 03:48 PM

ancienthibby

25-11-2010, 03:52 PM

You're either at the wind up or very naive.

TC, since you and I have engaged in other debates with respect to each other, do you not think that there really is a significant lacking in the rules that our refs are allowed to operate within??

For example, why (seemingly) can every player on the field confront the ref in a debateable situation?? Why is contact with the ref not constrained to the Captain of each side only?? Why, for example, (and I know this did not happen with Hoggy) is there not an automatic red card any any player who touches a referee??

Then there is the question of the players (who I believe are the real root of the problem).

Why, for example, was Davie Weir allowed to grab a Hibs player by the throat in one of this year's games and yet, nothing happened to him??

Finally, and this is not your problem, I have heard the repugnant Billy Dodds saying on the Beeb that, if he was touched in any circumstances in the penalty box, he would go down!!

Don't you think that cheating players have a huge responsibility in this situation??

HUTCHYHIBBY

25-11-2010, 03:53 PM

the Herald was reporting this morning that 3 Dutch refs had been lined up

That will just fuel the paranoia in the weegie eastend! They will want 3 from The Vatican City drafted in to even things up!

ancienthibby

25-11-2010, 03:56 PM

With a scab ref in charge is it morally right to attend these games? I am thinking of not attending (I am ST holder). I certainly would not go to a shop if its workers were on strike and scabs had been brought in to cover them. ?Is this any different

Yes it is!! The refs are not employees but contractors, so free to give/withdraw their services as they wish. Therefore, replaceable freely by others!!:agree:

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 03:59 PM

I provided lots and none of its bollox, believe what u want, i realise now you are only debating this obvious point for an arguement. Either that, or you have never been to a hibs/celtic or hibs/rangers game in your life. Think we should leave it at that and let the thread progress

You said no OF player had ever been sent off for Foul and Abusive Language. I provided a link showing Neil Lennon, as a player, being dismissed for just that reason. Therefore that point is bollox.

You claimed that a game with Balde in it at ER, he committed 27 fouls - one ever 3 1/2 minutes - and you have produced nothing to back that up, because its bollox - you've made it up or believed unquestioningly what someone has told you.

You claimed refs bottle sending off Balde at ER because he played for Celtic. I gave you a link to a game where he was dismissed. Therefore that point is bollox.

I've been to probably 80% or thereabouts of Hibs v OF games, at ER at any rate, since the mid eighties, (so thats another piece of bollox).

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - far from it. This weekends events, and the fallout from it are potentially pivotal to the future of senior football in Scotland - debate is critical, and people should debate their opinions openly and strongly.

I find it incredibly infuriating that people form their views on prejudice, lack of genuine evidence and an immutable, stubborn refusal to debate points made to the contrary because it doesnt fit their pre-formed view. Myopia in the extreme, and its absolutely why we've got into this position in the first place.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 04:16 PM

TC, since you and I have engaged in other debates with respect to each other, do you not think that there really is a significant lacking in the rules that our refs are allowed to operate within??

For example, why (seemingly) can every player on the field confront the ref in a debateable situation?? Why is contact with the ref not constrained to the Captain of each side only?? Why, for example, (and I know this did not happen with Hoggy) is there not an automatic red card any any player who touches a referee??

It comes down to the laws of the game. Both the instances above are not covered directly. Mass complaining (done by every senior team, btw) can only be dealt with as dissent or as abusive/insulting behaviour. When McDonald booked the three Motherwell players one after another a couple of weeks back i thought - "good stuff - never seen that before". The bare facts are that if every player was sent off for swearing the game wouldnt last 15 mins. I dont think refs want to be put in a protective bubble. If a player is aggressive to a ref he'll be booked, if he's violent, he'll walk.

Then there is the question of the players (who I believe are the real root of the problem).

Why, for example, was Davie Weir allowed to grab a Hibs player by the throat in one of this year's games and yet, nothing happened to him??

I think that the throat grab was only apparent on the telly as the two players were getting up, or was it when everything was kicking off when mcbride and lafferty were sent off. At the moment, the ref has to control a mob of players posturing and getting their handbags at the ready. I dont if the ref saw Weir or he didnt, so i cant answer. What has happened is that the fact it did happen and was missed by the ref but captured on camera is that it enters the psyche as being a gross deliberately inflicted injustice. it wasn't.

Finally, and this is not your problem, I have heard the repugnant Billy Dodds saying on the Beeb that, if he was touched in any circumstances in the penalty box, he would go down!!

Don't you think that cheating players have a huge responsibility in this situation??

Precisely. No cheating, no controversial decisions.

One thing that has always baffled me when refereeing even at youth level is that when a hefty challenge goes in, the first thing shouted by players and the sidelines is "Come on referee!". It wasnt me that committed the offence. You award a free kick and caution the player, but for some people there is still a simmering resentment that somehow it was my fault! Truly bizarre.

northern-hibee

25-11-2010, 04:20 PM

You said no OF player had ever been sent off for Foul and Abusive Language. I provided a link showing Neil Lennon, as a player, being dismissed for just that reason. Therefore that point is bollox.

You claimed that a game with Balde in it at ER, he committed 27 fouls - one ever 3 1/2 minutes - and you have produced nothing to back that up, because its bollox - you've made it up or believed unquestioningly what someone has told you.

You claimed refs bottle sending off Balde at ER because he played for Celtic. I gave you a link to a game where he was dismissed. Therefore that point is bollox.

I've been to probably 80% or thereabouts of Hibs v OF games, at ER at any rate, since the mid eighties, (so thats another piece of bollox).

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - far from it. This weekends events, and the fallout from it are potentially pivotal to the future of senior football in Scotland - debate is critical, and people should debate their opinions openly and strongly.

I find it incredibly infuriating that people form their views on prejudice, lack of genuine evidence and an immutable, stubborn refusal to debate points made to the contrary because it doesnt fit their pre-formed view. Myopia in the extreme, and its absolutely why we've got into this position in the first place.

Good Lord, you really aren't very clever are you? Neil Lennon was sent off AGAINST RANGERS FFS (doh, penny dropping yet?)

The game I refered to did contain the number of fouls committed, sorry you don't believe me but it did, you must have missed it (not sure what else I can do to prove it)

We will just have to believe you when you say you've been to 80% of games, unless of course you have evidence to back it up.

I am absolutely delighted foreign refs are coming over this weekend, whether it infuriates you or not, and I hope they could stay and we could sit and watch our football without the fear of bias. They may be rubbish refs, but at least they will be rubbish for both sides (do you get it yet?)

Prejudice means to pre judge, it took me a good number of years of solid evidence as shown by me and others on this forum to come to the conclusion I have so I haven't pre judged.

The refs not being respected is entirely their own doing, they could have nipped it in the bud years ago by standing up to the likes of Barry Ferguson, Neil Lennon etc and sent them packing first sign of chatback instead of smiling, giving them a pat on the bum and hoping they wouldn't be rude to them again. The rules are there for them to enforce, the fact that they haven't is a matter for them to address instead of throwing their dummy out the pram and bleating "nobody likes us"

JimBHibees

25-11-2010, 04:35 PM

It comes down to the laws of the game. Both the instances above are not covered directly. Mass complaining (done by every senior team, btw) can only be dealt with as dissent or as abusive/insulting behaviour. When McDonald booked the three Motherwell players one after another a couple of weeks back i thought - "good stuff - never seen that before". The bare facts are that if every player was sent off for swearing the game wouldnt last 15 mins. I dont think refs want to be put in a protective bubble. If a player is aggressive to a ref he'll be booked, if he's violent, he'll walk.

I think that the throat grab was only apparent on the telly as the two players were getting up, or was it when everything was kicking off when mcbride and lafferty were sent off. At the moment, the ref has to control a mob of players posturing and getting their handbags at the ready. I dont if the ref saw Weir or he didnt, so i cant answer. What has happened is that the fact it did happen and was missed by the ref but captured on camera is that it enters the psyche as being a gross deliberately inflicted injustice. it wasn't.

Precisely. No cheating, no controversial decisions.

One thing that has always baffled me when refereeing even at youth level is that when a hefty challenge goes in, the first thing shouted by players and the sidelines is "Come on referee!". It wasnt me that committed the offence. You award a free kick and caution the player, but for some people there is still a simmering resentment that somehow it was my fault! Truly bizarre.

If you genuinely think that OF players particularly their captains dont get more latitude than players of other clubs you are in cloud cuckoo land I am afraid. The intimidation that Weir, Miller and McCulloch are allowed to lay on officials is ridiculous and special treatment non-OF teams would even dare to carry out. Previous players have admitted this such as Gough and Billy McNeill after he had been Aberdeen manager.

PaulSmith

25-11-2010, 04:36 PM

Good Lord, you really aren't very clever are you? Neil Lennon was sent off AGAINST RANGERS FFS (doh, penny dropping yet?)

The game I refered to did contain the number of fouls committed, sorry you don't believe me but it did, you must have missed it (not sure what else I can do to prove it)

We will just have to believe you when you say you've been to 80% of games, unless of course you have evidence to back it up.

I am absolutely delighted foreign refs are coming over this weekend, whether it infuriates you or not, and I hope they could stay and we could sit and watch our football without the fear of bias. They may be rubbish refs, but at least they will be rubbish for both sides (do you get it yet?)

Prejudice means to pre judge, it took me a good number of years of solid evidence as shown by me and others on this forum to come to the conclusion I have so I haven't pre judged.

The refs not being respected is entirely their own doing, they could have nipped it in the bud years ago by standing up to the likes of Barry Ferguson, Neil Lennon etc and sent them packing first sign of chatback instead of smiling, giving them a pat on the bum and hoping they wouldn't be rude to them again. The rules are there for them to enforce, the fact that they haven't is a matter for them to address instead of throwing their dummy out the pram and bleating "nobody likes us"

For a man that talks a lot about prejudice your very prejudice about every referee that dares to officiate a game involving the OF.

Your posting like a man with absolute ignorance of refereeing and as I know TwoCarpets is a referee, and does know cat 1 refs, and how they dedicate themselves to the referee fraternity (I used that word just to annoy you) then its insulting to read how they are somehow cheats that show bias.

Unless you've ever picked up a whistle then you'll never understand.

northern-hibee

25-11-2010, 04:53 PM

For a man that talks a lot about prejudice your very prejudice about every referee that dares to officiate a game involving the OF.

Your posting like a man with absolute ignorance of refereeing and as I know TwoCarpets is a referee, and does know cat 1 refs, and how they dedicate themselves to the referee fraternity (I used that word just to annoy you) then its insulting to read how they are somehow cheats that show bias.

Unless you've ever picked up a whistle then you'll never understand.

I knew two carpets was a referee as soon as he started to defend the indefensable!

For what its worth I dont think refs are cheats I just think they cant help but be influenced by the circumstances of living within the communities whereby reprisals may be visited upon them or there families if they dare to give a decision against the OF. Not all games and not all decisions but evidence would suggest the critical ones do. That is the only reason I got involved in this thread was my honest held belief it would be better all round if they were not put in that position in the first place.

I know it is unaceptable that society operates like that but it does.

I have also ref'd albeit only at kids level and even then at non competative and was rubbish at it, but I was rubbish for both teams not just one.

Twa Cairpets

25-11-2010, 05:05 PM

Good Lord, you really aren't very clever are you? Neil Lennon was sent off AGAINST RANGERS FFS (doh, penny dropping yet?).

I like to think I am at least a bit clever :wink:

But the red card DID happen, unlike your claim which said:but what we do know is that never in the history of the game has an OF player been given a straight red for swearing at the ref . Incidentally, red cards in the senior game for this infringement are very unusual - happens all the time in the amateurs, but hardly ever in the SPL or SFL.

The game I refered to did contain the number of fouls committed, sorry you don't believe me but it did, you must have missed it (not sure what else I can do to prove it)

Maybe the game did, but what you said was: First minute bobo baldy terrible tackle from behind on hibs player only given a yellow, he then goes onto commit a further 26 fouls, about 6 were of similar type.

There may well have been 26 fouls in the game. Not 26 by Balde. If this was the case it would have been in the report on the game. Oddly, none of the reports mention this. Its a conspiracy I tell ya!.

We will just have to believe you when you say you've been to 80% of games, unless of course you have evidence to back it up.
Touche :greengrin

I am absolutely delighted foreign refs are coming over this weekend, whether it infuriates you or not, and I hope they could stay and we could sit and watch our football without the fear of bias. They may be rubbish refs, but at least they will be rubbish for both sides (do you get it yet?)

Depressing.

Prejudice means to pre judge, it took me a good number of years of solid evidence as shown by me and others on this forum to come to the conclusion I have so I haven't pre judged.

Well, you have, because the refs around 20+ years ago are different to those we have now, as are the circumstances in which they operate.

The refs not being respected is entirely their own doing, they could have nipped it in the bud years ago by standing up to the likes of Barry Ferguson, Neil Lennon etc and sent them packing first sign of chatback instead of smiling, giving them a pat on the bum and hoping they wouldn't be rude to them again. The rules are there for them to enforce, the fact that they haven't is a matter for them to address instead of throwing their dummy out the pram and bleating "nobody likes us"

Trust me, you don't go into refereeing expecting people to like you, respect you, or be your best buddy. You do expect not to be called a cheat.

SidBurns

25-11-2010, 05:06 PM

Refs from Portugal, Poland, Malta and Luxembourg... Mmm

sahib

25-11-2010, 05:21 PM

With a scab ref in charge is it morally right to attend these games? I am thinking of not attending (I am ST holder). I certainly would not go to a shop if its workers were on strike and scabs had been brought in to cover them. Is this any different?

I don't think of it as workers on strike. It is more like when the landed toffs and wealthy farmers, in that countryside alliance thing, start protesting about their right kill furry things.

Sir David Gray

25-11-2010, 05:22 PM

Refs from Portugal, Poland, Malta and Luxembourg... Mmm

All four of those nations have strong Roman Catholic populations.

Could this be the SFA trying to placate Celtic? :dunno:

The plot thickens...:hmmm:

:wink:

hibs0666

25-11-2010, 05:28 PM

JimBHibees

25-11-2010, 05:34 PM

It's absolutely disgraceful that a Celtc squabble is hurting a shedload of smaller teams that in no way are associated with this problem.

Celtc never cease to amaze with their its sheer contempt for Scottish football.

Agree just been listening to radio about Cowdenbeath v Dunfermline having to be postponed which given it is probably their biggest game of the season and will directly affect a small club who no doubt needs every penny. Personally think the refs are as much to blame their issues should have been raised and discussed however no way IMO should they be striking.

PISTOL1875

25-11-2010, 05:38 PM

I find it amazing that people can defend the referee's over this matter.. For years now we have had to put up with up inept performances , bottling decision's and sometimes even cheating..

Don't people think refs should be made accountable for there poor performances ?? Refs are on strike not because they are being questioned over there integrity and apparent threats to themselves and there families but nothing more than for years now they have got away with murder and are basically bulletproof...

If a ref does make a bad call that effects a game the worst that can happen to them is that they get there knuckles rapped , sent to the lower leagues for a few weeks and then brought back to the SPL with the incident swept under the carpet...

AndyB_70

25-11-2010, 05:42 PM

The Celtic thing is just the straw that broke the camels back. Lets not kids ourselves about it. Agreed that the little ginger git has gone way too far but this has been coming for a while now. Players, manager and club officials all like to moan about the refs. We as supporters think we can spout any old crap at them and think it’s OK so we all have a responsibility here. Refs accept that they will get abuse from the fans etc but when it starts to affect their family members and their business life’s then how can they be expected to carry on. Refs actually do this job for the love of the game and lets not think that's it’s an easy job when players try to con the refs by diving, pulling tops etc.
I was at the rugby at Murrayfield last weekend and even when I played rugby at school you never ever spoke back to the ref. If you did it was trouble. Even the manager and parents standing on the touchline would give us hell if we spoke back. The refs’ word was final. If there was anything to be said it would be by the captain of the team. Compare that to football. You get parents shouting at the ref telling their kids to give the ref it tight. They see professionals chasing the refs, giving them verbal and seem to think that this is now an acceptable part of the game. Its not.
Without refs the game is dead and players would not be earning the ridiculous amounts of money they get for kicking a ball.
100% behind the refs on this one.