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Diclonius
19-11-2010, 04:51 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9196192.stm

:top marks

Kaiser1962
19-11-2010, 05:16 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9196192.stm

:top marks

I dont see what it would gain apart from disqualify good referees for certain games.
Dougie McDonald, who gave a softish early penalty AGAINST Hibs, is a Hibby, and would not have been allowed to ref the game for perceived bias TOWARDS Hibs so I dont see the point.
But why stop at ref's? Why not players, whose cheating and diving antics are beyond doubt? Or managers, coaches and all SFA office holders?

I think we're opening a can of worms.

Sprouleflyer
19-11-2010, 06:00 AM
I dont see what it would gain apart from disqualify good referees for certain games.
Dougie McDonald, who gave a softish early penalty AGAINST Hibs, is a Hibby, and would not have been allowed to ref the game for perceived bias TOWARDS Hibs so I dont see the point.
But why stop at ref's? Why not players, whose cheating and diving antics are beyond doubt? Or managers, coaches and all SFA office holders?

I think we're opening a can of worms.

Maybe that can needs to be opened?

Toaods
19-11-2010, 07:03 AM
I think the SFA already ask this on a registration form but don't air it to the general public.

marinello59
19-11-2010, 07:46 AM
If wa can't trust refs to be impartial no matter what team they support then the games a bogey anyway. The Celtic board must be delighted with this politician's comments as it backs their agenda up. We'd be better improving the training of refs than wasting time on a sideshow like this.
Are we really going to have a situation where we allocate games based on boyhood allegiance rather than ability? How is that going to affect recruitment of new refs when some will realise that they will never get to officiate at an Old Firm game or an Edinburgh Derby? Those letting it be known they supported one of the Old Firm would see their chances of getting a cup final greatly reduced. It's an absolute nonsense. It wouldn't stop the conspiracy theorists either. Imagine if somebody declares support for Airdrie or Motherwell. It would be case of , aye, but what team do they really support?
Hasn't Wishart got more important things to occupy his time anyway?

lucky
19-11-2010, 07:50 AM
As more than 50% of footie fans in Scotland claim to be either a fan of one side of the old firm how many top refs are going to be able to ref a game which effects one of them ? It's unworkable. I don't think the refs are cheats but are of the same standard as the players -----poor.
John Reid was part of the government that lied about reasons for invading Iraq but seems to think McDonald should be sacked for lying over a penalty. As for the snp guy ---countrys is meltdown and he more worried about who refs supports FFS Gies peace. Total non story. Rant over morning everybody

Removed
19-11-2010, 07:56 AM
I think it's a crazy idea. Agree with M59 & Lucky.

PaulSmith
19-11-2010, 08:13 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9196192.stm

:top marks


So if a Catholic ref from Edinburgh is a dyed in the wool Hibby, he cant' referee either Hibs or Hearts games. He also cannot referee games involving Rangers as we hate them a much as Hearts plus if he referees a Celtic game he might be accused of being biased towards them as he must have Celtic blood in him!

I'll tell you know, referee's aren't interested in who they may have supported when they step onto the park. Only interest is getting through the game and get all the big calls right and to progress up the ranks. Hard as that maybe to understand to the average fan it's true

PeeJay
19-11-2010, 08:31 AM
Competely unworkable IMO - we have to assume that all referees are impartial - if we do not believe this, then a referee who, e.g. supports Celtic could do his team a favour by influencing the outcome of another game which he is refeereing, e.g. Rangers v Hibs - i.e. let Hibs win. If the powers that be do not think he is impartial for a Celtic game (his club) how do they know he's impartial when he's refereeing a game involving one of his team's major rivals: they don't! Impartial at all times or not at all, surely?

HibeePaj
19-11-2010, 08:40 AM
I dont think that this could ever really work. I think at the start of the season there would be no real differance or effect on the game. However at the end of the season almost every game which your team is not involved in can have a direct effect on your club.

Pointless really imho.

I think that if all clubs take no notice of Celtic, then they might just tire themselves out... (it works, i seen it on supernanny:wink:)

Jack
19-11-2010, 09:19 AM
It works in England where the SNP bod has obviously borrowed the idea. God forbid anyone accuse a politician of having an original idea!

However, typical politician hasn’t thought this through or hasn’t had someone with sense to advise him!

England, approximately 10 times bigger than Scotland, has a much larger gene pool to chose from and can therefore implement this without undue difficulty.

I think, as others have said before, we should at least enlarge our gene pool of referees by importing some from abroad on a regular basis. IIRC Turkey did/does this for the final half dozen or so games of their season.

s.a.m
19-11-2010, 10:07 AM
I dont think that this could ever really work. I think at the start of the season there would be no real differance or effect on the game. However at the end of the season almost every game which your team is not involved in can have a direct effect on your club.

Pointless really imho.

I think that if all clubs take no notice of Celtic, then they might just tire themselves out... (it works, i seen it on supernanny:wink:)

:agree:
Or, even better, go away - and take their neebors with them.


I would agree with Marinello and Peejay and others who have made the point that it is both unworkable, and a dangerous path to go down.

MrSmith
19-11-2010, 10:35 AM
So if a Catholic ref from Edinburgh is a dyed in the wool Hibby, he cant' referee either Hibs or Hearts games. He also cannot referee games involving Rangers as we hate them a much as Hearts plus if he referees a Celtic game he might be accused of being biased towards them as he must have Celtic blood in him!

I'll tell you know, referee's aren't interested in who they may have supported when they step onto the park. Only interest is getting through the game and get all the big calls right and to progress up the ranks. Hard as that maybe to understand to the average fan it's true

As an average fan, I really would like to believe this however, in near 40 years of supporting and watching Hibs, I have seen some absolutely unbelievable decisions go against us - too many to be brushed over as simple errors. Therfore I have natrually like other ordinary fans, come to the conclusion that something is very wrong with refereeing in Scotland. It is not a new thing it has been going on as long as I recall and most likely longer.

Referees should declare who they supported and should not be allowed to referee games where they are perceived to have a vested interest. However religion should not be spoken about in these terms.

Liberal Hibby
19-11-2010, 10:39 AM
It works in England where the SNP bod has obviously borrowed the idea. God forbid anyone accuse a politician of having an original idea!

However, typical politician hasn’t thought this through or hasn’t had someone with sense to advise him!

England, approximately 10 times bigger than Scotland, has a much larger gene pool to chose from and can therefore implement this without undue difficulty.

I think, as others have said before, we should at least enlarge our gene pool of referees by importing some from abroad on a regular basis. IIRC Turkey did/does this for the final half dozen or so games of their season.

Wasn't aware that this happened down here but happy to take your word for it. But there's a delicious irony of an SNP politician wanting to ape an English policy...

Part/Time Supporter
19-11-2010, 11:00 AM
Wishart has misunderstood what has gone on in England. There is an option on the FA forms for a ref to declare if they are uncomfortable with refereeing certain team(s) due to location or whatever. It isn't made public but obviously people can work out that a referee from a certain town has never refereed their team or their rivals. Wishart was babbling on about public disclosure and confidence, etc.

It's easy to see why it could work in England - bigger population, more centres of population, more competitive teams. Even if a referee said he couldn't referee any Manchester team (for example), he could still referee plenty of big games. For obvious reasons it wouldn't work in Scotland. In addition to the location issue you have the whole "what school did he go to?" thing going on as well.

Interesting to note that Reid supported this absurd idea during his rant yesterday.

Seanair
19-11-2010, 11:17 AM
Wasn't aware that this happened down here but happy to take your word for it. But there's a delicious irony of an SNP politician wanting to ape an English policy...

Usual Unionist c**p, getting it the wrong way round. Scotland can and should take ideas from anywhere IF THEY'RE GOOD IDEAS. But doesn't have to take ideas from England just because the Press, BBC, Sky, and English politicians SAY these ideas are good.
If you really are a Liberal I think you should keep quiet for a bit since some of the ideas from Clegg and his pals are disastrous for Scotland.:grr:

Liberal Hibby
19-11-2010, 11:22 AM
Usual Unionist c**p, getting it the wrong way round. Scotland can and should take ideas from anywhere IF THEY'RE GOOD IDEAS. But doesn't have to take ideas from England just because the Press, BBC, Sky, and English politicians SAY these ideas are good.


I think you make my point for me...

stubru59
19-11-2010, 11:28 AM
As more than 50% of footie fans in Scotland claim to be either a fan of one side of the old firm how many top refs are going to be able to ref a game which effects one of them ? It's unworkable. I don't think the refs are cheats but are of the same standard as the players -----poor.
John Reid was part of the government that lied about reasons for invading Iraq but seems to think McDonald should be sacked for lying over a penalty. As for the snp guy ---countrys is meltdown and he more worried about who refs supports FFS Gies peace. Total non story. Rant over morning everybody

Ditto.

Seanair
19-11-2010, 11:58 AM
I think you make my point for me...

Only in your own mind. I said that good ideas should be taken from ANYWHERE--that means England too.:bye:

lyonhibs
19-11-2010, 12:20 PM
What a totally stupid and unworkable idea - totally plays into the Yams/Sellick notion that referees in this country are integrally corrupt depending on what match they are refereeing.

Which is a crock of conspiratorial *****e as we all know.

BurghHibby
19-11-2010, 02:55 PM
The general idea is good as a form of opening up the GFA.

While it may not be workable to bar Rantic supporting refs doing their games, it could deter them giving that last minute penalty at Darkheid of Castle Greyskull if it was common knowledge that they were a supporter of that Rantic team.

Remember when the SFA/GFA used to publish where refs came from, never Glasgow but places like Cathcart, Bearsden and the like, then when they twigged that people in other parts of the country new these places were in the weedge this practice was stopped altoghter, partly as it would then be noticed how high a percentage of referees are actually from the weedge and surrounding areas.

A retired referee once told me that if you are an average ref from the west you will make grade 1 status no bother, different case if you are from anywhere else especially if you are from those football wilderness areas like the borders or the highlands.

I'm not stating that there are conspiracies everywhere but surely the SFA could easily state a few basic facts even if it is just to dispel the conspiracy theorists, North Korea is more open than the SFA!

Kaiser1962
19-11-2010, 03:02 PM
I would add that this particular "St.Johnstone supporting" MSP was born and brought up in Dunfermline in the sixties when the Pars had a great side. He now represents the constituency of, spookily enough, Perth and Kinross.

Dr Jimmy
19-11-2010, 03:07 PM
This is complete and utter nonsense and at the end of the day if a ref states he comes from (say) Paisley and supports St Mirren, nobody in the West of Scotland will believe him. Because in their minds you are either "one or the other".
How many times have we heard Celtic fans say/refer to us that we must "prefer" Celtic to Rangers, because we are Hibbys?
They are so deluded that a lot of them actually think that we go to Hibs games with a leaning towards Celtic! The same goes for other teams and Rangers supporters....Sorry, but I hate you both with equal venom!:grr:

BoltonHibee
19-11-2010, 03:20 PM
Great idea, should have happened years ago!

Hibbyradge
19-11-2010, 03:27 PM
Very silly idea, imo.

Most people in Scotland support either Rangers or Celtic. Referees are no different.

So, they will either have to lie about their allegiance, or accept that they will have a very restricted career.

I'd hazard a guess that Clydebank FC will suddenly have a significant increase in declared supporters if this plan goes ahead.

cam75
19-11-2010, 03:27 PM
I watched a school boy scottish cup game this year and the ref was from 1 of the teams school and he gave the other team more than his poss he felt the strain?

Twa Cairpets
19-11-2010, 03:48 PM
The general idea is good as a form of opening up the GFA.

While it may not be workable to bar Rantic supporting refs doing their games, it could deter them giving that last minute penalty at Darkheid of Castle Greyskull if it was common knowledge that they were a supporter of that Rantic team.

Remember when the SFA/GFA used to publish where refs came from, never Glasgow but places like Cathcart, Bearsden and the like, then when they twigged that people in other parts of the country new these places were in the weedge this practice was stopped altoghter, partly as it would then be noticed how high a percentage of referees are actually from the weedge and surrounding areas.

A retired referee once told me that if you are an average ref from the west you will make grade 1 status no bother, different case if you are from anywhere else especially if you are from those football wilderness areas like the borders or the highlands.

I'm not stating that there are conspiracies everywhere but surely the SFA could easily state a few basic facts even if it is just to dispel the conspiracy theorists, North Korea is more open than the SFA!

Utter tosh.

Firstly - this "GFA" thing reeks of yam. It's a petty schoolground bit of smugness.

Grade one refs - I can think of, off the top of my head, 4 grade 1 refs from the East: Dougie McDonald, Calum Murray, Crawford Allan and Mike Tumilty and im sure theres more.

Bias to the west may well have been the case in the dim and distant, but in the modern era where refereeing is much more of a career than a hobby it is just simply not the case. Where the system is possibly flawed now is that guys who have a drive to be succesful but who maybe arent particualrly good referees do put themselves in a position to be promoted above their level of competence, but thats a different matter.

As for publishing there hometown, as I've posted before, where do you stop? Where they live now (maybe they moved recently)? Where they were born? Where they went to school? Where their parnets lived? It's utterly, utterly pointless, and only adds fuel to the fire of the conspiracists.

You either trust referees or you don't. If you do, their current place of residence is utterly immaterial. If you don't, then knowing this is only going to add to your own confirmation bias. "He's from Kilmarnock?" Everyone knows people from Killie are Huns/Tims/killie fans". Pointless.

As for the MSP - what a freakin tool. do people never think things through? Referee declares he's a Hibby, say. So he can't referee Hibs games. Or Hearts games, because of the rivalry. Or any game presumably where the outcome could directly impact Hibs. or any teams the week before they play Hibs in case he gets a red card decision wrong.

As a referee at a much, much lower level for years, it pisses me off greatly that rent a quote twonks like this MSP, and posts such as yours and loads of others on this thread think it high wisdom to have a pop at referees without in any way engaging their brains. Referees make mistakes. Shock horror. I shout at them from the East as much as the next man, before you think I'm defending every decision they make as being right, but I absolutely, categorically 100% believe that in the modern era, every decision is 100% honestly made.

The Gorf
19-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Usual Unionist c**p, getting it the wrong way round. Scotland can and should take ideas from anywhere IF THEY'RE GOOD IDEAS. But doesn't have to take ideas from England just because the Press, BBC, Sky, and English politicians SAY these ideas are good.
If you really are a Liberal I think you should keep quiet for a bit since some of the ideas from Clegg and his pals are disastrous for Scotland.:grr:

Did you know that Pete Wishart is the keyboards player for Runrig? Just thought I'd mention it.

ScottB
19-11-2010, 04:04 PM
This won't stop Celtic's paranoia!

If a ref who claims to support Raith Rovers makes a bad call they'll just insist he lied and is actually a life long Ger and part of the great anti Tic conspiracy.


What would solve this problem is telling Celtic to shut up, stop bringing the game into disrepute and threaten them with a points deduction if they don't. Refs are human beings, they make mistakes. Deal with it!

BurghHibby
19-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Utter tosh.

Firstly - this "GFA" thing reeks of yam. It's a petty schoolground bit of smugness.

Grade one refs - I can think of, off the top of my head, 4 grade 1 refs from the East: Dougie McDonald, Calum Murray, Crawford Allan and Mike Tumilty and im sure theres more.

Bias to the west may well have been the case in the dim and distant, but in the modern era where refereeing is much more of a career than a hobby it is just simply not the case. Where the system is possibly flawed now is that guys who have a drive to be succesful but who maybe arent particualrly good referees do put themselves in a position to be promoted above their level of competence, but thats a different matter.

As for publishing there hometown, as I've posted before, where do you stop? Where they live now (maybe they moved recently)? Where they were born? Where they went to school? Where their parnets lived? It's utterly, utterly pointless, and only adds fuel to the fire of the conspiracists.

You either trust referees or you don't. If you do, their current place of residence is utterly immaterial. If you don't, then knowing this is only going to add to your own confirmation bias. "He's from Kilmarnock?" Everyone knows people from Killie are Huns/Tims/killie fans". Pointless.

As for the MSP - what a freakin tool. do people never think things through? Referee declares he's a Hibby, say. So he can't referee Hibs games. Or Hearts games, because of the rivalry. Or any game presumably where the outcome could directly impact Hibs. or any teams the week before they play Hibs in case he gets a red card decision wrong.

As a referee at a much, much lower level for years, it pisses me off greatly that rent a quote twonks like this MSP, and posts such as yours and loads of others on this thread think it high wisdom to have a pop at referees without in any way engaging their brains. Referees make mistakes. Shock horror. I shout at them from the East as much as the next man, before you think I'm defending every decision they make as being right, but I absolutely, categorically 100% believe that in the modern era, every decision is 100% honestly made.

Firstly I take exception to the Yam comment, someone makes a comment and because you don't like it they are immediatley a Yam?
This is a forum for people's views and opinions and there's no need for unfounded accusations and name calling when you don't know the first thing about the person.
The main point of my original post was to state it would be good for the SFA to open up.
If you were an SFA graded referee at the lower level then I wouldn't expect anything else than a resounding vote of confidence in current and recent referees, aye Willie Collum, Ian Brines, Alan Freeland and High Dallas are all above reproach and as honest as the day is long.
Sorry I've seen too many Hibs games over the years to believe that.

Jack
19-11-2010, 06:42 PM
Firstly I take exception to the Yam comment, someone makes a comment and because you don't like it they are immediatley a Yam?
This is a forum for people's views and opinions and there's no need for unfounded accusations and name calling when you don't know the first thing about the person.
The main point of my original post was to state it would be good for the SFA to open up.
If you were an SFA graded referee at the lower level then I wouldn't expect anything else than a resounding vote of confidence in current and recent referees, aye Willie Collum, Ian Brines, Alan Freeland and High Dallas are all above reproach and as honest as the day is long.
Sorry I've seen too many Hibs games over the years to believe that.

ooooooo touchy, touchy!

I’ll bet a pound to a penny TwoCarpets was referring to the phrase ‘GFA’ being yamish rather than the poster BurghHibby.

Anyway ...

I agree it would be good for the SFA to open up. I don't think it would be a good idea for this to be one of the things they open up on. As stated earlier the English already have such a list – its in their TOP SECRET file.

When you look at the recent behaviour of certain paranoid OF fans you can see why it might not be a good idea to give them any more help than is necessary. TBH I think the way things are going refs will / should be given pseudonyms and false beards.

Twa Cairpets
19-11-2010, 07:17 PM
Firstly I take exception to the Yam comment, someone makes a comment and because you don't like it they are immediatley a Yam?
This is a forum for people's views and opinions and there's no need for unfounded accusations and name calling when you don't know the first thing about the person.
The main point of my original post was to state it would be good for the SFA to open up.
If you were an SFA graded referee at the lower level then I wouldn't expect anything else than a resounding vote of confidence in current and recent referees, aye Willie Collum, Ian Brines, Alan Freeland and High Dallas are all above reproach and as honest as the day is long.
Sorry I've seen too many Hibs games over the years to believe that.

As per Jacks comment, I wasnt referring to you as being of the other persuasion - it is the phrase I dont like as it is used to establish an opinion as a fact. Its just naff, and is used by the paranoid inhabitants over-by every time a throw-in goes against them.

As for "a resounding vote of confidence", you've read into my post what you want without, apparently, reading it - no mean feat. Have another go. What I've said is that current grade 1 referees may make mistakes, but I absolutely do not believe it is based on any bias whatsoever. It is their career, and not one of them is going to jeapordise FIFA appointments because they were caught out being materially wrong on a point of the laws of the game on a decision due to bias. The grade 1 guys I have known over the years range between really good guys and total gits - essentially like any group of people.

As for opening up - fine. Define what you mean - it's an easy throwaway line, but what do you want them to do? If you mean, for example, refs explaining their decisions publicly, that is a total hiding to nothing.

Here's a scenario:

Ref says: "I awarded the goal because the player who was in an offside position I decided was not active."

Cue phone-ins from entirely blinkered fans "How can he say that, he was clearly active" endless TV analysis from pundits "if you swivel the camera angle to see it from here you can see his knee might have been in the way of the goalies eyeline".

The one thing to consider is post-match interviews. In the vast majority of cases, a red card is, in the opinion of the managers, either " a stonewaller - the boy wont be happy seeing it again tonight" or "a travesty, wasnt even a foul". The only people in the ground who have a completely neutral view of proceedings are the match officials - they should not have to justify there actions, unless there integrity is being fundamentally questioned. if that is the case, we're all f*****.

I know even at my level of refereeing whatever decision you make - to award or not award a penalty, to send off or not send off, to allow a goal to stand or chalk it off for an infringement - is, if it is a critical decision, going to really aggravate one side or the other. You learn at a very early stage to go with what you immediately believe to be the right decision.

The only time I have ever seen a referee come close to losing control in a senior game was Freland when we played Falkirk, but that wasn't bias, that was incompetence from him and lack of discipline by both teams.

Finally, as posted on another thread which i cant be bothered looking out, the statistics just do not show any evidence of bias in terms of free kicks awarded and cards given out.

Hibbyradge
19-11-2010, 07:34 PM
Celtic fans think referees deliberately favour Rangers.

Rangers fans think they deliberately favour Celtic.

Yams think referees deliberately disfavour them!

The rest of us all think the referees deliberately favour Rantic.

We're all paranoid and we're all wrong.

sahib
19-11-2010, 08:12 PM
I don't worry so much about the team a referee supported as a boy. I worry about how corruptible they might be. Coming first or second is worth millions to the OF. How much would it take to insure against any other unexpected outcomes?

Seanair
19-11-2010, 10:00 PM
Did you know that Pete Wishart is the keyboards player for Runrig? Just thought I'd mention it.

Yes, I did actually (is/was-are they still playing together?).

Interesting that he went down the SNP route while Donnie Munro went Labour.