How hard can it be to build a football team?

[3pm]

We've been useless for a long time and it's culminated in that performance yesterday.

However, how do we end up with that as our first XI? Sure, budgets affect things but a professional must be able to come up with something better than that yesterday. Who was missing? Duffy, Zouma and Nish? One unproven, one inconsistent and....we'll not bother with another Nish debate. The point is it's not going to get much better.

Football Managers always make bad signings but this is ridiculous what has happened. Is there an EFFECTIVE footballer in our squad bar Riordan?!

We here on Hibs.net love to think we know best - but would we do any worse?!

This isn't a dig at Mixu, Hughes, Calderwood or anybody - I am just surprised it'd managed to get to this stage.

[Emerald]

For a Hibs team to line up in a derby unable to field a recognised centre forward is nothing short of a scandal. 135 years in the making and a top flight team with no front men. Even taking injuries into account, how did we get to this situation. The board seem to plan to death the clubs infrastructure but where is the planning into the team? Sell them and worry about it later seems to be the order of the day! :confused:

[Green_one]

Sell them and worry about it later seems to be the order of the day! :confused:

Sums it up for me. We got rid of a high scoring forward and replaced him with???

- a player who has been injured his whole time at Hibs

or

- a player so **** he cannot even replace Nish.

Good planning.

[Mikeystewart]

My queston would be how the F*** is our wages to turnover 64% with a team this bare and S***E!

[Golden Bear]

Let's face it ------------ regardless of the players chosen, the formation, or the tactics, we ain't going anywhere with the present squad.

I'm sure CC will have already recognised the frailities and it's his job to shift these guys on asap but at the same time motivate them enough to pick up the points required to avoid relegation.

Not an easy job given the circumstances.

[hibees_green]

We've been useless for a long time and it's culminated in that performance yesterday.

However, how do we end up with that as our first XI? ........... I am just surprised it'd managed to get to this stage.

It's the result of a strategy of focussing on the infrastruture and believing the rest will somehow magically follow. Plenty on here agree/agreed with it and promised that next year (always next year) that we'll be in a better position than every other team outwith the OF.

With the current strategy, for me the best we can hope is that it will take 2 years to sort out this mess and thats assuming CC is the right man for the job:rolleyes:

[ahibby]

Well it is a big concern because the last time we were in this situation we were able to bring in Sauzee, Latapy Zitelli, et al to turn us around. Not to mention the young talent we had around. It's going to be harder this time but it can be done.

[Kaiser1962]

I think we are in better position. Would you really swap our position for that of the Yams? I know that many would and it would be hard, at this time, to argue against that. There is also no argument that this team are clueless and how they let Templeton run from the half way line beggars belief. Yesterday was bad but there are even darker days ahead and it is going to take years to sort this out. I do believe that Yogi recognised this and hence the summer clear out. Having all those players out of contract at once id not an accident.

Say Petrie resigns, as there seem to many very vocal saying he should but what then? Lets give it time to sort out.


It's the result of a strategy of focussing on the infrastruture and believing the rest will somehow magically follow. Plenty on here agree/agreed with it and promised that next year (always next year) that we'll be in a better position than every other team outwith the OF.

With the current strategy, for me the best we can hope is that it will take 2 years to sort out this mess and thats assuming CC is the right man for the job:rolleyes:

[John_the_angus_hibby]

We've been useless for a long time and it's culminated in that performance yesterday.

However, how do we end up with that as our first XI? Sure, budgets affect things but a professional must be able to come up with something better than that yesterday. Who was missing? Duffy, Zouma and Nish?

I do take your point, but all are attacking options. I think with those 3 available the options re selection, formation and tactics change quite considerably.

[hibees_green]

I think we are in better position. Would you really swap our position for that of the Yams? I know that many would and it would be hard, at this time, to argue against that. There is also no argument that this team are clueless and how they let Templeton run from the half way line beggars belief. Yesterday was bad but there are even darker days ahead and it is going to take years to sort this out. I do believe that Yogi recognised this and hence the summer clear out. Having all those players out of contract at once id not an accident.

Say Petrie resigns, as there seem to many very vocal saying he should but what then? Lets give it time to sort out.

I actually don't believe these players are all out of contract due to some master plan. I think it's simply that previous managers have not been able to get the players they wanted and ended up taking short term deals to make up the numbers. There's nothing to make me think this will change so progress I'm afraid is unlikely. The truth of the matter is that the current board has failed to make any progress on the park over the last 5 years. Unfortunately the reality is there's no evidence that that's likely to change.

[Cropley10]

I actually don't believe these players are all out of contract due to some master plan. I think it's simply that previous managers have not been able to get the players they wanted and ended up taking short term deals to make up the numbers. There's nothing to make me think this will change so progress I'm afraid is unlikely. The truth of the matter is that the current board has failed to make any progress on the park over the last 5 years. Unfortunately the reality is there's no evidence that that's likely to change.

Is there any precedent to having 16 players out of contract? I can't think of one. I'd say it a terrible lack of planning to get us into a situation where we literally don't know who will be playing for us in August.

I'm sick of hearing how we're so much better off than the Yams. Football is about winning; matches, derbies, cups, leagues, whatever. I can't console myself thinking they might go bust one day - while they manage to field a team with better players than us in every position (or near enough) anyway.

Whatever we tried in the past hasn't worked: QED. Time for a change, or time to stop doing what we've always done.

[Speedway]

My queston would be how the F*** is our wages to turnover 64% with a team this bare and S***E!

it's 68%...and rising.

[Andy74]

Is there any precedent to having 16 players out of contract? I can't think of one. I'd say it a terrible lack of planning to get us into a situation where we literally don't know who will be playing for us in August.

I'm sick of hearing how we're so much better off than the Yams. Football is about winning; matches, derbies, cups, leagues, whatever. I can't console myself thinking they might go bust one day - while they manage to field a team with better players than us in every position (or near enough) anyway.

Whatever we tried in the past hasn't worked: QED. Time for a change, or time to stop doing what we've always done.

Petrie confirmed that it was a decision by Hughes to have these contracts running out next year.

When they are all as bad as being suggested why is it bad planning?

And someone actually seems to be suggesting above that Hibs planned to buy a player who would be injured days later?? Aye, we knew that was happening right enough.

[Cropley10]

Petrie confirmed that it was a decision by Hughes to have these contracts running out next year.

When they are all as bad as being suggested why is it bad planning?

And someone actually seems to be suggesting above that Hibs planned to buy a player who would be injured days later?? Aye, we knew that was happening right enough.

Andy - my point is it's unprecedented, and probably for a good reason. It's a risk. You want to build a team around a nucleus of players but we don't have that. We will have to get one though and that will cost us.

We don't pay transfer fees and we don't deal with agents, AFAIK, so we're shopping in a restricted market. Everyone will know we need players, or we need to re-sign the ones we have!

Interesting times ahead for sure. But please - don't try and convince me this was part of some 'masterplan' Yogi had, 'fitba people ken what I'm doing' etc.

We've shopped in the bargain basement and now we are where we are. All fretting about our wages:turnover while f'in Mudderwell win just about every other week!

PS - The part in the bold - the Chairman deals with Contracts and Contract negotiations, I thought. Nothing to do with Yogi.

[Andy74]

Andy - my point is it's unprecedented, and probably for a good reason. It's a risk. You want to build a team around a nucleus of players but we don't have that. We will have to get one though and that will cost us.

We don't pay transfer fees and we don't deal with agents, AFAIK, so we're shopping in a restricted market. Everyone will know we need players, or we need to re-sign the ones we have!

Interesting times ahead for sure. But please - don't try and convince me this was part of some 'masterplan' Yogi had, 'fitba people ken what I'm doing' etc.

We've shopped in the bargain basement and now we are where we are. All fretting about our wages:turnover while f'in Mudderwell win just about every other week!

PS - The part in the bold - the Chairman deals with Contracts and Contract negotiations, I thought. Nothing to do with Yogi.

It's not a risk if you know you don't want the players for any longer than that or if you want them to earn their deals.

The Chairman only completes the deals on the basis of what the manager identifies and the length of contract the manager wants.

And Hibs do pay fees on occasion and certainly do deal with agents.

Are you suggesting Hughes would have been wrong wanting to part with most of the current squad?

[greenlex]

Andy - my point is it's unprecedented, and probably for a good reason. It's a risk. You want to build a team around a nucleus of players but we don't have that. We will have to get one though and that will cost us.

We don't pay transfer fees and we don't deal with agents, AFAIK, so we're shopping in a restricted market. Everyone will know we need players, or we need to re-sign the ones we have!

Interesting times ahead for sure. But please - don't try and convince me this was part of some 'masterplan' Yogi had, 'fitba people ken what I'm doing' etc.

We've shopped in the bargain basement and now we are where we are. All fretting about our wages:turnover while f'in Mudderwell win just about every other week!

PS - The part in the bold - the Chairman deals with Contracts and Contract negotiations, I thought. Nothing to do with Yogi.

That will be because they didnt shop in the so called bargain basement will it? Where are their Millers and Riordans etc?

Hibs wages is currently at 68% of turnover. That is proof that we are paying players as much if not more than the majority of the rest of the SPL. I know that is everyone at the clubs salaries but I think the argument still stands. If that is bargain basement then most of the SPL are in the same market.
Its more to do with the football management than what we are spending.
Another point. Are you saying not one of the current Hibs playing staff do not have an agent? I am confused:confused:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

It's not a risk if you know you don't want the players for any longer than that or if you want them to earn their deals.

The Chairman only completes the deals on the basis of what the manager identifies and the length of contract the manager wants.

And Hibs do pay fees on occasion and certainly do deal with agents.

Are you suggesting Hughes would have been wrong wanting to part with most of the current squad?

Think you need to look at the other side of the coin tho'. No risk to Hibs if we don't want the players, but the players themselves must be thinking, if I am getting emptied at the season end, which other clubs are going to take a chance on me based on what they are seeing me do just now? You are either committed or you are not, and I would guess that any manager that has a tight budget wants honest, consistent triers as a basic minimum. Some of our boys would need to say that, they have the ability, but they choose when and when not to apply it. A manager buying players would say thanks but no thanks.

[Cropley10]

It's not a risk if you know you don't want the players for any longer than that or if you want them to earn their deals.

The Chairman only completes the deals on the basis of what the manager identifies and the length of contract the manager wants.

And Hibs do pay fees on occasion and certainly do deal with agents.

Are you suggesting Hughes would have been wrong wanting to part with most of the current squad?

It is a risk if you know you don't want 16 players, or have 16 out of contract. You literally don't have a team and need to buy one, IMHO.

I don't know precisely how the Chairman does these things, and with respect - I doubt you do either. It has been printed in the past that he deals with contracts and negotiations with players, obviously in discussion with the Manager.

Again - my understanding from those 'in the know' is that we now have a policy of NOT paying transfer fees. Too risky a way to spend your capital...

I think Hughes is/was right to get rid of some - but we've gone to an extreme here. Done right it will be exciting - badly and it's the SFL, IMHO


That will be because they didnt shop in the so called bargain basement will it? Where are their Millers and Riordans etc?

Hibs wages is currently at 68% of turnover. That is proof that we are paying players as much if not more than the majority of the rest of the SPL. I know that is everyone at the clubs salaries but I think the argument still stands. If that is bargain basement then most of the SPL are in the same market.
Its more to do with the football management than what we are spending.
Another point. Are you saying not one of the current Hibs playing staff do not have an agent? I am confused:confused:

Ah Lex, my ol' sparring partner...:greengrin Miller and Riordan aren't doing much for us right now though are they?

But Well are an example of a team who 'appear' to have got it right - they have some talent, throughout that team and seem to have developed some consistency. That's my frustration.

This 68% figure - we should be concentrating on the income figure rather than the wages, as we'd still be paying people the same money IF we increased our T/O. However we're spending it, we're not getting value for money - from the top to the bottom right now, IMHO.

[Albion Hibs]

Petrie confirmed that it was a decision by Hughes to have these contracts running out next year.

When they are all as bad as being suggested why is it bad planning?

And someone actually seems to be suggesting above that Hibs planned to buy a player who would be injured days later?? Aye, we knew that was happening right enough.

Agreed mate.

What makes me laugh is that I don’t think so many people on here realise what they write between one thread and the next. So many people on here go on about us needing a new squad - yet they dont believe that they club intended for the contract situation to provide the perfect opportunity for that - yet again a case of netters know best.

With regards to the players we are missing - even just Nish and Duffy I think is huge for us. The only thing that made me smile on Sunday was the guy that sits a few rows behind me canes Nish every game and anybody could see that he would have made a massive difference to the outcome of the game. Maybe from that day onwards he will engage his brain.

With regards to building a team, I do think we are that many players short - certainly the shout of new squads is nothing sort of farcical. How difficult - I would think it is pretty difficult. When you get the amount of time we give our managers - I would suggest it is impossible.

I think as fans we need to take a look at ourselves. It cant always be the board, manager and players as fans we should be accountable for what happens to our club.

With regards to Riordan being the only effective one – I would ask what games that is based on. Great striker - yes, without someone playing alongside him / up front on his own – just about as ineffective as you can get.

[greenlex]

Ah Lex, my ol' sparring partner...:greengrin Miller and Riordan aren't doing much for us right now though are they? No but they should be. It doesnt however xhange the fact that they were brought to Hibs and are/were quality players that Motherwell have not brought in. They could not (along with Stokes) be described as bargain basement.

But Well are an example of a team who 'appear' to have got it right - they have some talent, throughout that team and seem to have developed some consistency. That's my frustration. Its my frustration too. With the right manager we could and should be challenging up the other end of the table with the backing they get from the board however limited folks think it is.

This 68% figure - we should be concentrating on the income figure rather than the wages, as we'd still be paying people the same money IF we increased our T/O. However we're spending it, we're not getting value for money - from the top to the bottom right now, IMHO.Disagree. If the turnover was up the ratio would remain or a similar lever so wages would increase and the so would the quality on the park(actually it would decrease to a level of a few years ago as it was said that the current ratio was too high and a concern) Anyhoo the sentiment remains the same the turnover increases and so does the wages. I do agree we are not getting value for money from the playing side but I think that is down to the managers..

[Eaststand]

[QUOTE=Kaiser1962;2630522]I think we are in better position. Would you really swap our position for that of the Yams? I know that many would and it would be hard, at this time, to argue against that. There is also no argument that this team are clueless and how they let Templeton run from the half way line beggars belief. Yesterday was bad but there are even darker days ahead and it is going to take years to sort this out. I do believe that Yogi recognised this and hence the summer clear out. Having all those players out of contract at once id not an accident.

Don't ask me for my source, but trust me on this point.
Yogi wanted to clear all 16 of the ''out of contracts'' at the end of this season, and he thought Petrie had agreed to that happening. Unfortunately, that plan fell apart when the teams performances dipped so badly last February, then just kept slipping and Petrie got nervous and blinked. Yogi had many faults, but he sure as hell had the balls to go with his gut feeling cos he recognised that there was an unhealthy player attitude at ER even from some of his own signings such as AS or should that read ASS cos thats what the backstabbing 'I'll play and train when I want to' to$$er did. Yogi had the guts to try and deal with it but the rug was pulled from under his feet and thats now history.

CC might get a bit more out of some of this lot of players, but we have too many players who didn't make the grade elsewhere but unbelievably, they still believe they're something special. in the words of Ricky Tomlinson - MY ARSE!!

I reckon our teams problems will continue until there is a massive clearout of the current squad, and new players, most of them with their careers in front of them are brought in to wear the famous green jersey and give us long suffering fans a team to be proud of once again

GGTTH

[Eaststand]

Andy - my point is it's unprecedented, and probably for a good reason. It's a risk. You want to build a team around a nucleus of players but we don't have that. We will have to get one though and that will cost us.

We don't pay transfer fees and we don't deal with agents, AFAIK, so we're shopping in a restricted market. Everyone will know we need players, or we need to re-sign the ones we have!

Interesting times ahead for sure. But please - don't try and convince me this was part of some 'masterplan' Yogi had, 'fitba people ken what I'm doing' etc.

We've shopped in the bargain basement and now we are where we are. All fretting about our wages:turnover while f'in Mudderwell win just about every other week!

PS - The part in the bold - the Chairman deals with Contracts and Contract negotiations, I thought. Nothing to do with Yogi.

C10 - I've just posted bud, and trust me it was deliberate to have so many of this team of superstars out of contract in the Summer. Our Club Manager decides which players stay and who goes, and JH knew he didn't want many of the current bunch to keep conning him and us for any longer than their contract allowed.

GGTTH

[Cropley10]

[QUOTE=Kaiser1962;2630522]I think we are in better position. Would you really swap our position for that of the Yams? I know that many would and it would be hard, at this time, to argue against that. There is also no argument that this team are clueless and how they let Templeton run from the half way line beggars belief. Yesterday was bad but there are even darker days ahead and it is going to take years to sort this out. I do believe that Yogi recognised this and hence the summer clear out. Having all those players out of contract at once id not an accident.

Don't ask me for my source, but trust me on this point.
Yogi wanted to clear all 16 of the ''out of contracts'' at the end of this season, and he thought Petrie had agreed to that happening. Unfortunately, that plan fell apart when the teams performances dipped so badly last February, then just kept slipping and Petrie got nervous and blinked. Yogi had many faults, but he sure as hell had the balls to go with his gut feeling cos he recognised that there was an unhealthy player attitude at ER even from some of his own signings such as AS or should that read ASS cos thats what the backstabbing 'I'll play and train when I want to' to$$er did. Yogi had the guts to try and deal with it but the rug was pulled from under his feet and thats now history.

CC might get a bit more out of some of this lot of players, but we have too many players who didn't make the grade elsewhere but unbelievably, they still believe they're something special. in the words of Ricky Tomlinson - MY ARSE!!

I reckon our teams problems will continue until there is a massive clearout of the current squad, and new players, most of them with their careers in front of them are brought in to wear the famous green jersey and give us long suffering fans a team to be proud of once again

GGTTH

Interesting. Liam Miller's out of contract, so's Deek.

Sorry but I don't buy this lets start with a clean slate - how could you know how much that was going to cost you?

When it came to a new left mid for example you'd be looking at your budget and thinking I've only got £35/wk left. It would literally like playing Fantasy League - except it would be for real players, you'd have to identify them, approach them, trial them perhaps and then sign them. And they'd know our situation!!

[Cropley10]

With regards to the players we are missing - even just Nish and Duffy I think is huge for us. The only thing that made me smile on Sunday was the guy that sits a few rows behind me canes Nish every game and anybody could see that he would have made a massive difference to the outcome of the game. Maybe from that day onwards he will engage his brain.

With regards to building a team, I do think we are that many players short - certainly the shout of new squads is nothing sort of farcical. How difficult - I would think it is pretty difficult. When you get the amount of time we give our managers - I would suggest it is impossible.


Please explain to me who in Sunday's team you'd keep or if you prefer who'd have got into the Hertz team.

There is a complete lack of any real quality in this team from 1 - 11, IMHO. No pace, no width, no steel, no real desire either.

Please help me understand who you'd replace at the very least, cos I think we're short in every department, literally.

[BEEJ]

The Chairman only completes the deals on the basis of what the manager identifies and the length of contract the manager wants.
From the Hibs FC announcement on 3 April 2008:


The Chairman will continue to work closely with the Manager in identifying budget requirements and helping him to shape his squad through negotiating player contracts and incoming or outgoing transfers.

There will be umpteen subtle interpretations on just how this working relationship might operate in practice. But your view seems to be that RP is purely reactive to the opportunities that the Manager brings his way.

I believe that RP will be much more involved in this process and that his obvious skills of persuasion will extend to the way he leads the Manager towards particular decisions on the squad front.

[BEEJ]

Don't ask me for my source, but trust me on this point.

Yogi wanted to clear all 16 of the ''out of contracts'' at the end of this season, and he thought Petrie had agreed to that happening. Unfortunately, that plan fell apart when the teams performances dipped so badly last February, then just kept slipping and Petrie got nervous and blinked.
But nine of the players out of contract next summer were Yogi's signings.

And is it really a valid strategy for 'squad development'? Pinning your hopes on finding 10 -12 good quality players in one summer window in 2011 - and then trying to meld them quickly into a coherent side. It's a risky approach.

It's not as if Yogi would have taken on this season with a makeshift squad in return for a known positive outcome next season.

Less a coherent plan and more like a glorified throw of the dice.

[Hibercelona]

For a league of this quality and a club with our resources, it should be a piece of p!ss to at least make top six each and every season.

But naww.... for the simple fact that we are Hibernian FC, this just canne happen!! :grr:

[BEEJ]

The Chairman only completes the deals on the basis of what the manager identifies and the length of contract the manager wants.



Your view seems to be that RP is purely reactive to the opportunities that the Manager brings his way.

I believe that RP will be much more involved in this process and that his obvious skills of persuasion will extend to the way he leads the Manager towards particular decisions on the squad front.

To add further fuel to this debate, I give you Yogi's own words from his interview tonight on the BBC:


"If I knew four games after we let him [Anthony Stokes] go to Celtic that I'd be out of a job, I'd have fought harder to keep him," admitted Hughes.

Doesn't sound like the Manager initiated that deal.

[greenlex]

To add further fuel to this debate, I give you Yogi's own words from his interview tonight on the BBC:



Doesn't sound like the Manager initiated that deal.
Maybe Aye maybe naw. But I think Hughes is lamenting the fact that if he kept him me might just might still be thecmanager if Hibs.
Celtic probably made the first approach and it fitted in nicely with getting rid if him as he appeared to be taking the piss and it was easier to get shot of him fir the sake of dressing room harmony than it was to fight with him to tow the line.
It's easy fir Hughes in hindsight to think doing the harder thing might have saved his kneck.

[Kaiser1962]

I'm a bit disappointed in Hughes with his interviews. Of course he's going to take none of the blame, or as little as he can get away with, and blame big bad Rod (who gives his opinion less that Hibs take three points these days). The truth is that even with Stokes in the second half of last season we were in freefall but anybody who knows any of the players will tell you that there were big problems there between him and Yogi. Collins blamed the board (Rod) to a degree as well and when Rod responded he didnt answer.
Of course theres a compromise to be made between what the manager wants and what he gets, as there is at any club, and the manager knows that and takes the job on those terms. If he makes a howk of it he either walks or get pushed and Rod is left with the debris. Rod did not blink on Yogi's masterplan but there was little evidence that Yogi could change it and it looks like he was making it up as he went along. That and we were all screaming for the manager's head.

I suppose Yogi could have said that Rod promised him Rooney and Yogi thought he meant Wayne and not Adam! Thats where the compromise comes in.


Maybe Aye maybe naw. But I think Hughes is lamenting the fact that if he kept him me might just might still be thecmanager if Hibs.
Celtic probably made the first approach and it fitted in nicely with getting rid if him as he appeared to be taking the piss and it was easier to get shot of him fir the sake of dressing room harmony than it was to fight with him to tow the line.
It's easy fir Hughes in hindsight to think doing the harder thing might have saved his kneck.

[Cropley10]

With regards to the players we are missing - even just Nish and Duffy I think is huge for us.

With regards to building a team, I do think we are[n't] that many players short

AH - please can you do us all a favour... you say it's farcical to shout for a new squad. Well with 16 players out of contract, that's what we will need.

So - if we aren't that many players short, who would you keep/resign and/or move on?

[ahibby]

Watching Hibs you would think it is impossible to build a football team not just difficult.