Time to go into debt, Mr Lindsay

[Hibbyradge]

Accidents and bad fortune cost us all.

It's time for us to bite the bullet and pay up to put things right.

We've done well financially over the last decade, but we've walked into a wall.

A bit more short term debt has to be your Christmas present to Colin Calderwood.

And us.

[matty_f]

Accidents and bad fortune cost us all.

It's time for us to bite the bullet and pay up to put things right.

We've done well financially over the last decade, but we've walked into a wall.

A bit more short term debt has to be your Christmas present to Colin Calderwood.

And us.

I think we need to be looking at January and realise that there needs to be a few months where we are spending a wage twice.

Calderwood has to be prepared to go to the board with a list of players going out of contract that he has no intention of keeping, and whatever we are spending on those players needs to go on getting better players in.

Might mean we can do less business in the summer, but if we go into the second half of this season with this bunch, then we're goosed.

[Cropley10]

Accidents and bad fortune cost us all.

It's time for us to bite the bullet and pay up to put things right.

We've done well financially over the last decade, but we've walked into a wall.

A bit more short term debt has to be your Christmas present to Colin Calderwood.

And us.

Extremely well put :applause:

[Kaiser1962]

I think we need to be looking at January and realise that there needs to be a few months where we are spending a wage twice.

Calderwood has to be prepared to go to the board with a list of players going out of contract that he has no intention of keeping, and whatever we are spending on those players needs to go on getting better players in.

Might mean we can do less business in the summer, but if we go into the second half of this season with this bunch, then we're goosed.

Good post Matty. I would like to think that CC has already decided who to let go and we either "pay them off" or, as you say, pay a double wage. I would be surprised if the board did not sanction this as long as CC comes up with a clear plan.

While I do not want to go into debt I am rankled that clubs spend way over their income and we suffer because we dont. The system wherby clubs can go into admin twice in seven years, or operate with debts exceeding assets, sometimes substantially, is fundamentally wrong.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

I'm hoping CC uses his contacts in England and get us a big eff off centre half and two combative midfielders and a typical English bull in a china shop centre forward

Aye ah ken...wishful thinking

:rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

I'm hoping CC uses his contacts in England and get us a big eff off centre half and two combative midfielders and a typical English bull in a china shop centre forward

Aye ah ken...wishful thinking

:rolleyes:

I think thats a reasonable request. Two or three hairy arsed old pro's who can still do a job and wont let us be bullied and walked over. Exactly what we need.

[IWasThere2016]

I think thats a reasonable request. Two or three hairy arsed old pro's who can still do a job and wont let us be bullied and walked over. Exactly what we need.

Shouldnae be too difficult in Leith :wink:

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

I think thats a reasonable request. Two or three hairy arsed old pro's who can still do a job and wont let us be bullied and walked over. Exactly what we need.


I've wanted this for a long time, there's a few gorillas in the championship leagues that would have eaten half of that manky mob today

[shamo9]

The financial ramifications of relegation would be much more severe than some much needed short term investment.

If we were to get a few decent (how low we've fallen!) players in January then I still feel we can salvage this season by getting into the top six. That's how tight the league is.

A fully fit Murray, Duffy, Zemmama and Nish; along with bringing through some of the young ones would ease the burden as well.

Does Benji have a club? We could do worse than grovel to one of him or O'Connor to see if they'll come back for 6 months to save us. They'd certainly inspire more confidence than Trakys seems to do. The fact we're reluctant to play him when we don't even have another CF speaks volumes.

[jdships]

I think we need to be looking at January and realise that there needs to be a few months where we are spending a wage twice.

Calderwood has to be prepared to go to the board with a list of players going out of contract that he has no intention of keeping, and whatever we are spending on those players needs to go on getting better players in.

Might mean we can do less business in the summer, but if we go into the second half of this season with this bunch, then we're goosed.

Your post says it all for me.:thumbsup:
I have tried very hard not to criticise the board over the past few years purely on the grounds of the great work they have done in "stabilising" things.
However with the new stadium , training facilities et al in place it is time to improve things on the park surely

[matty_f]

The financial ramifications of relegation would be much more severe than some much needed short term investment.

If we were to get a few decent (how low we've fallen!) players in January then I still feel we can salvage this season by getting into the top six. That's how tight the league is.

A fully fit Murray, Duffy, Zemmama and Nish; along with bringing through some of the young ones would ease the burden as well.

Does Benji have a club? We could do worse than grovel to one of him or O'Connor to see if they'll come back for 6 months to save us. They'd certainly inspire more confidence than Trakys seems to do. The fact we're reluctant to play him when we don't even have another CF speaks volumes.

In a world where there are literally tens of thousands of professional footballers, we go looking for Benji!??!

Benji is the last player we'd need right now, he wasn't one for stepping up to the plate when we needed it.

Get some players in who are winners. Players that properly hate any other result than 3 points. That go mental when we concede, no matter what the score at the time, and players that will run through walls (metaphorically speaking) to score goals and make tackles.

Did any players get a roasting from their team mates for letting the boy run through and score? :dunno:

That's what we need, not Garry O or Benji.

[shamo9]

In a world where there are literally tens of thousands of professional footballers, we go looking for Benji!??!

Benji is the last player we'd need right now, he wasn't one for stepping up to the plate when we needed it.

Get some players in who are winners. Players that properly hate any other result than 3 points. That go mental when we concede, no matter what the score at the time, and players that will run through walls (metaphorically speaking) to score goals and make tackles.

Did any players get a roasting from their team mates for letting the boy run through and score? :dunno:

That's what we need, not Garry O or Benji.

It's all well and good spouting criteria for some mythical player who will rid us of all our woes, but until you give names (that we can afford!) we're only talking in circles.

I proposed the two aforementioned strikers purely because they're out of contract and better than what we have upfront. Until we're safe from relegation we shouldn't sniff at anything in the short term as long as it keeps us up.

In the summer we can start the proper rebuilding process, right now we just have to ensure that that rebuilding is in the SPL.

[matty_f]

It's all well and good spouting criteria for some mythical player who will rid us of all our woes, but until you give names (that we can afford!) we're only talking in circles.

I proposed the two aforementioned strikers purely because they're out of contract and better than what we have upfront. Until we're safe from relegation we shouldn't sniff at anything in the short term as long as it keeps us up.

In the summer we can start the proper rebuilding process, right now we just have to ensure that that rebuilding is in the SPL.

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across like I was having a go.

I think we need to look past former players and just get players that are good enough in. Benji did absolutely nothing here under Yogi and I wouldn't think it'd be any different if he came back again.

There's no chance (IMHO) of getting GO'C back either, but I agree with you that we need to do what we can to ensure SPL survival.

The difference between us and St Mirren is that we are a bigger club, with a bigger turnover etc, we should use that advantage and where they will struggle to strengthen in January, we should do it.

[new malkyhib]

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across like I was having a go.

I think we need to look past former players and just get players that are good enough in. Benji did absolutely nothing here under Yogi and I wouldn't think it'd be any different if he came back again.

There's no chance (IMHO) of getting GO'C back either, but I agree with you that we need to do what we can to ensure SPL survival.

The difference between us and St Mirren is that we are a bigger club, with a bigger turnover etc, we should use that advantage and where they will struggle to strengthen in January, we should do it.

great point - will be lost on the rugger boys in the boardroom at Easter Road, though:grr:

[(((Fergus)))]

Benji plays for Ismaily in Egypt

[IWasThere2016]

New investment is cheaper than more debt .. I expect neither however.

[jonty]

I dont get the 'we need to spend more money'
We have been spending more money over the last few years - yet we still end up with a bunch of lazy arsed primadonnas - far worse than the team(s) we had when paying a lot less.

I wouldnt be surprised if we had a brand new starting 11 in next seasons pre-season - for the same as we're spending now.

Bottom line is we're not getting any value for money from the majority of the existing players.

[Hibbyradge]

I dont get the 'we need to spend more money'
We have been spending more money over the last few years - yet we still end up with a bunch of lazy arsed primadonnas - far worse than the team(s) we had when paying a lot less.

I wouldnt be surprised if we had a brand new starting 11 in next seasons pre-season - for the same as we're spending now.

Bottom line is we're not getting any value for money from the majority of the existing players.

We need to buy better.

Better equals more expensive.

[jonty]

We need to buy better.

Better equals more expensive.

Agree and dont.
We need to buy better - but better spending is wiser spending. It doesn't need to be more expensive compared to existing contracts/wages.

[Speedway]

We need to buy better.

Better equals more expensive.

How much did Mowbray spend?

[RMQ1967]

We need to buy better.

Better equals more expensive.

Got to say I'm with Jonty on this one - Millar, Hart, DeGraff etc. would not have come cheap but I don't see the benefits from their high wages.

Dundee are the prime example that shows spending on big wages does not equal success (at the level we can afford to pay).

[matty_f]

How much did Mowbray spend?

:agree: This.


Murphy was probably the best left back I've seen at Hibs. Didn't cost a penny.

Jones was cheap.

Deano was free. Sproule £5k, Boozy - nowt.

All of them in the same nick as they were when they played for us would improve our squad right now. No question.

[matty_f]

I dont get the 'we need to spend more money'
We have been spending more money over the last few years - yet we still end up with a bunch of lazy arsed primadonnas - far worse than the team(s) we had when paying a lot less.

I wouldnt be surprised if we had a brand new starting 11 in next seasons pre-season - for the same as we're spending now.

Bottom line is we're not getting any value for money from the majority of the existing players.

What I meant wasn't spending more as such (though, technically it does), I meant using what we spend now on new players, with the knowledge that we'd be back where we are now in a few months once we've released loads.

[AgentDaleCooper]

How much did Mowbray spend?

how many crap signings did he make?

[matty_f]

how many crap signings did he make?

Would you say it was more or less than Collins, Mixu and Yogi did, all of whom spent more than Mowbray did.

[Kaiser1962]

We need to buy better.

Better equals more expensive.

Alan O'Brien?

[Jones28]

:greengrin
Shouldnae be too difficult in Leith :wink:

[ekhibee]

I think we definitely will need to spend quite a bit more than what we have been. If you honestly think you can get 9 or 10 bargain basement buys (and make no mistake we need at least that many) that will provide the quality that will either help us avoid relegation and/or push us into the top 6 I'm afraid I disagree with you.

[Cropley10]

Alan O'Brien?

So if I'm understanding you right, we spent, or rather wasted, good money on AOB so we shouldn't do this again.

Does that mean we should just keep buying cheap players?:confused:

What we need is quality. We have NO quality left in this team.

[Big Frank]

Accidents and bad fortune cost us all.

It's time for us to bite the bullet and pay up to put things right.

We've done well financially over the last decade, but we've walked into a wall.

A bit more short term debt has to be your Christmas present to Colin Calderwood.

And us.

Spot on radge:agree: :top marks

But if not, we could, in say a couple of weeks post a thread on hertz' bank balance.

[matty_f]

So if I'm understanding you right, we spent, or rather wasted, good money on AOB so we shouldn't do this again.

Does that mean we should just keep buying cheap players?:confused:

What we need is quality. We have NO quality left in this team.

That's not what he was saying - he's saying that throwing good money after bad isn't necessarily the answer.

We pushed the boat out to get AOB, a lot was made of it at the time, as we did with Makalambay.

The problem that left for Collins, was that the chunk of the wage budget that they took was so sizable that it meant he had to sign cheaper players to stick within budget.

This wouldn't have been an issue if he'd been able to pluck a Murphy or a Sproule out the bag, unfortunately he plucked Brian Kerr and Morais out the bag.

A good player doesn't have to be an expensive player - that is the point.

[Kaiser1962]

So if I'm understanding you right, we spent, or rather wasted, good money on AOB so we shouldn't do this again.

Does that mean we should just keep buying cheap players?:confused:

What we need is quality. We have NO quality left in this team.

Of course it's not what I mean and you know it. I am just saying more expensive dosent necessarily mean better.

We have a decent budget but it needs to be spent better. You could appoint me manager and I could complain bitterly about "lack of investment" having squandered my allotted funds on pish that hasnt worked out and complain, equally bitterly when a player I signed for peanuts does well and gets sold on for a life changing amount of money. We are a stepping stone these days, for players and managers.

[shamo9]

That's not what he was saying - he's saying that throwing good money after bad isn't necessarily the answer.

We pushed the boat out to get AOB, a lot was made of it at the time, as we did with Makalambay.

The problem that left for Collins, was that the chunk of the wage budget that they took was so sizable that it meant he had to sign cheaper players to stick within budget.

This wouldn't have been an issue if he'd been able to pluck a Murphy or a Sproule out the bag, unfortunately he plucked Brian Kerr and Morais out the bag.

A good player doesn't have to be an expensive player - that is the point.

Not a bad debut though:greengrin Not many Hibs players can say they scored a derby winner in the first game - pity he lived off that for the rest of his tenure. Kind of like Benji and the CIS...

[matty_f]

Not a bad debut though:greengrin Not many Hibs players can say they scored a derby winner in the first game - pity he lived off that for the rest of his tenure. Kind of like Benji and the CIS...

Apparently that goal was the only time his work was seen by the general viewing public!

[Cropley10]

Of course it's not what I mean and you know it. I am just saying more expensive dosent necessarily mean better.

We have a decent budget but it needs to be spent better. You could appoint me manager and I could complain bitterly about "lack of investment" having squandered my allotted funds on pish that hasnt worked out and complain, equally bitterly when a player I signed for peanuts does well and gets sold on for a life changing amount of money. We are a stepping stone these days, for players and managers.

Right - so the AOB comment was a cheap shot then, no?

I'm sure you're right in what you say in the second para.

We need more 'quality' in this team because there is no quality. Quality costs money. AOB wasn't and isn't 'quality'.

[shamo9]

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across like I was having a go.

I think we need to look past former players and just get players that are good enough in. Benji did absolutely nothing here under Yogi and I wouldn't think it'd be any different if he came back again.

There's no chance (IMHO) of getting GO'C back either, but I agree with you that we need to do what we can to ensure SPL survival.

The difference between us and St Mirren is that we are a bigger club, with a bigger turnover etc, we should use that advantage and where they will struggle to strengthen in January, we should do it.
All the more reason to give it a go. Give him six months of first team football in an environment he knows well to put himself back in the shop window for one last big move. Can't see any logical person objecting to that sort of deal.

I know it's a bit painful to think like that, but, as you said, 'we need to do what we can to ensure SPL survival'.

Doing this would also save us from buying crap players on long term contracts that suck us dry. That is probably the biggest problem at Hibs in the modern era.

Buying anything worthwhile for Hibs is hard enough in the summer, never mind in January when most are still under contract. The opportunity with O'Connor is too good not to at least try, and it would certainly lift the fans.

[RMQ1967]

Right - so the AOB comment was a cheap shot then, no?

I'm sure you're right in what you say in the second para.

We need more 'quality' in this team because there is no quality. Quality costs money. AOB wasn't and isn't 'quality'.

It wasn't a cheap shot - AOB is the perfect example of why high wages does not equal quality.

Plenty of examples above of where spending no money got good players (Murphy etc) also plenty of high wage earners (Miller, DeGraff, Hart) that are not delivering.

[Kaiser1962]

Right - so the AOB comment was a cheap shot then, no?

I'm sure you're right in what you say in the second para.

We need more 'quality' in this team because there is no quality. Quality costs money. AOB wasn't and isn't 'quality'.

The AOB comment was an extreme example to argue against the point.

We actually agree on more than we disagree on C10 but I think, today, everybody's hurting and its easy to blame the board cos we have to blame somebody. We need continuity at this time and we're in for tougher days ahead and there's very little CC (or RP) can do, in terms of personnel, till January.

[Cropley10]

It wasn't a cheap shot - AOB is the perfect example of why high wages does not equal quality.

Plenty of examples above of where spending no money got good players (Murphy etc) also plenty of high wage earners (Miller, DeGraff, Hart) that are not delivering.

Buying better quality will cost money. AOB wasn't and isn't quality. He was an unknown of dubious provenance. Staunton gave him 5 caps for the RoI, when they were utter keek.

Quality = high wages, but high wages does NOT = quality.

How do you know what Hart of DeGraff earn? You don't. You're another one on here who always has an argument for maintaining the status quo :hmmm:

[Kaiser1962]

Collins and Tommy Craig really rated him. Collins told me that himself along with a whole host of reasons why he as not doing as well as expected. Newcastle put up a bit of a fight to keep him but he moved here, like Stokes I suppose, as a stepping stone to greater things. As we all know it didn't work out sadly but even if it had and he'd been a sensation he would have STILL moved on for (much) greater money. Thats the reality.


Buying better quality will cost money. AOB wasn't and isn't quality. He was an unknown of dubious provenance. Staunton gave him 5 caps for the RoI, when they were utter keek.

Quality = high wages, but high wages does NOT = quality.

How do you know what Hart of DeGraff earn? You don't. You're another one on here who always has an argument for maintaining the status quo :hmmm:

[ScottB]

I'm gonna agree with others here and play devils advocate. Cash doesn't equal quality. Indeed a fair chunk of our current problems stem from our budget being too tied up paying big earners like Maka and O'Brien, and we all remember how good they were!

Conversely, we brought in guys like Sproule, Bamba and Murphy for a pittance.

What we need I think, is an overhaul of our scouting system, other clubs seem to be better at picking up 'diamonds in the rough' from the lower leagues than we are for example, and we let too many opportunities go by that we could have easily gotten (Griffiths and Goodwillie spring to mind for example).

Should we go on a spending spree in January? Yes and no. Quality doesn't tend to come cheap in January after all. I'd like to see some quality loan players in from down south, as well as trying to tie up good players on pre contracts, such as Rooney from ICT, then trying to get them in for nominal fees, those are cases I'd fully support the Board breaking out the cash for.

It's not an easy road ahead by any means, but we cannot afford to spend another few years with some over paid huddies on our books yet again!

[Cropley10]

Collins and Tommy Craig really rated him. Collins told me that himself along with a whole host of reasons why he as not doing as well as expected. Newcastle put up a bit of a fight to keep him but he moved here, like Stokes I suppose, as a stepping stone to greater things. As we all know it didn't work out sadly but even if it had and he'd been a sensation he would have STILL moved on for (much) greater money. Thats the reality.

I have no problem with players moving on.

However I think history has now proven - without doubt - that JC/TC couldn't pick a player. They were 'taken advantage' of, as (m)any novices are in life.

[Kaiser1962]

I have no problem with players moving on.

However I think history has now proven - without doubt - that JC/TC couldn't pick a player. They were 'taken advantage' of, as (m)any novices are in life.

Agree about the players but TC is no novice (he was coach at Newcastle before AOB signed).

And JC, despite stories to the contrary at times, is nobody's fool.

[Cropley10]

Agree about the players but TC is no novice (he was coach at Newcastle before AOB signed).

And JC, despite stories to the contrary at times, is nobody's fool.

Both true, but they couldn't/didn't pick a player, in fact the opposite.

Funny thing is Watty Robb (RIP) - a man who missed 1 home match in 60 years - once told me AOB was THE worst player he'd ever seen in a Hibs shirt.

Anyway I digress. I'm not having a go at the Board, merely pointing out we need quality and quality costs money.

[matty_f]

Both true, but they couldn't/didn't pick a player, in fact the opposite.

Funny thing is Watty Robb (RIP) - a man who missed 1 home match in 60 years - once told me AOB was THE worst player he'd ever seen in a Hibs shirt.

Anyway I digress. I'm not having a go at the Board, merely pointing out we need quality and quality costs money.

Agree totally with this. Is there one example of a Collins signing that we'd consider an unmitigated success at the club?

I'm struggling to think of one.

[RMQ1967]

Both true, but they couldn't/didn't pick a player, in fact the opposite.

Funny thing is Watty Robb (RIP) - a man who missed 1 home match in 60 years - once told me AOB was THE worst player he'd ever seen in a Hibs shirt.

Anyway I digress. I'm not having a go at the Board, merely pointing out we need quality and quality costs money.

Not sure what you mean about maintaining the status quo but what numerous posters (with the aid of numerous examples) are trying to point out to you is that quality does not need to cost money (Murphy, Boozy etc).

[ScottB]

Not sure what you mean about maintaining the status quo but what numerous posters (with the aid of numerous examples) are trying to point out to you is that quality does not need to cost money (Murphy, Boozy etc).

Indeed.

I would say good scouting = quality really.

[PapillonVert]

Chucking money at the problem isn't necessarily a panacea. Look at Man City.

I suspect that there is an (ingrained?) ethos in the dressing room that isn't healthy and hasn't been for some time and I do begin to get the feeling that Petrie and the Board have their heads in the sand about that and expect the manager-of-the-moment somehow miraculously to fix the problem or else be the fall guy (in due course) for all the ills that beset the club.

The alarm bells started to ring when Collins walked and we should be asking why that happened - it's never been entirely and completely explained. I now begin to suspect that he wasn't getting the back-up from the Board that he needed to do the job he wanted (player power undermining the manager and the Board caving into that) and that was necessary to get the club onto a totally professional footing.

The Board needs to come out and support the manager up to the hilt and insist on basic non-negotiable standards from the employees and be prepared to take disciplinary action immediately where the set standards are not being met.

Basically, I am just really fed up of getting a new manager every 12-15 months and we have to accept that either the Board are totally hopeless at appointing someone or there is an underlying negative (chronic?) atmosphere which originates from the dressing-room and not the manager's office

[SloopJB]

Must be really difficult for the board. They have taken the club from going out of business to being in a pretty reasonable state but are being encouraged to put the work they have done at risk. Spending money to finance debt wont rest easy with them.
It'd be ok if it guaranteed success but would it? Rhetorical question.
If Duffy had been expensive we'd still be waiting on a return. It may well work but it's a mighty risk.

Maybe the board acted on the advice of previous managers in building East Mains, an investment with an ongoing cost.
The stadium being developed in the hope of attracting additional revenue is investment. Someone must have said that the players currently employed at Hibs were good enough to compete in the SPL and the board allowed them to be hired.

Calderwood may have to prove his judgement is good before he is allowed to bring his men in. Meantime, those at the club must be made to earn their place, salary and support.

[ScottB]

Chucking money at the problem isn't necessarily a panacea. Look at Man City.

I suspect that there is an (ingrained?) ethos in the dressing room that isn't healthy and hasn't been for some time and I do begin to get the feeling that Petrie and the Board have their heads in the sand about that and expect the manager-of-the-moment somehow miraculously to fix the problem or else be the fall guy (in due course) for all the ills that beset the club.

The alarm bells started to ring when Collins walked and we should be asking why that happened - it's never been entirely and completely explained. I now begin to suspect that he wasn't getting the back-up from the Board that he needed to do the job he wanted (player power undermining the manager and the Board caving into that) and that was necessary to get the club onto a totally professional footing.

The Board needs to come out and support the manager up to the hilt and insist on basic non-negotiable standards from the employees and be prepared to take disciplinary action immediately where the set standards are not being met.

Baiscally, I am just really fed up of getting a new manager every 12-15 months and we have to accept that either the Board are totally hopeless at appointing someone or there is an underlying negative (chronic?) atmosphere which originates from the dressing-room and not the manager's office

I would say the Board are well aware of the issues, the vast number of players out of contract at the end of the season suggests the plan has been to bin them all (it's not like anyone is going to come and bid for them is it).

[matty_f]

Chucking money at the problem isn't necessarily a panacea. Look at Man City.

I suspect that there is an (ingrained?) ethos in the dressing room that isn't healthy and hasn't been for some time and I do begin to get the feeling that Petrie and the Board have their heads in the sand about that and expect the manager-of-the-moment somehow miraculously to fix the problem or else be the fall guy (in due course) for all the ills that beset the club.

The alarm bells started to ring when Collins walked and we should be asking why that happened - it's never been entirely and completely explained. I now begin to suspect that he wasn't getting the back-up from the Board that he needed to do the job he wanted (player power undermining the manager and the Board caving into that) and that was necessary to get the club onto a totally professional footing.

The Board needs to come out and support the manager up to the hilt and insist on basic non-negotiable standards from the employees and be prepared to take disciplinary action immediately where the set standards are not being met.

Baiscally, I am just really fed up of getting a new manager every 12-15 months and we have to accept that either the Board are totally hopeless at appointing someone or there is an underlying negative (chronic?) atmosphere which originates from the dressing-room and not the manager's office

Some interesting points, but having seen first hand the levels of professionalism amongst the staff at Hibs, I don't think Collins could have had any complaints on that front.

Collins allegedly walked because we wouldn't sanction the signing of the boy Hammel, though as far as I can remember that signing would have taken Collins past his wage budget, which is why it wasn't sanctioned.

I think Collins could tell at that point that he wasn't likely to improve Hibs and so jumped ship, leaving us in an awful state IMHO.

We do seem to have a lack of a real team spirit at the club though, maybe the squad is too big, maybe too many players are bad influences for whatever reasons...

I don't think it's something that is deep rooted at the club, though. A good manager will address it.

IMHO, we need a smaller, better, tighter squad. A recognised first eleven that plays consistently together is needed.

That is where the team spirit comes from. We need to be a team that wins and loses together, rather than 11 players that win and lose with some of the same players and some different ones each week.

[Kaiser1962]

:agree:

I dont think the wages are that rigid Matty. If Collins had shown that he could sign decent players I am pretty sure Hammell would have been sanctioned but, given the dross that he signed, it wasn't. That said Hammell, though decent enough (and certainly no worse than we have) is back where he started at Motherwell and clubs are hardly knocking their door down to sign him.


Some interesting points, but having seen first hand the levels of professionalism amongst the staff at Hibs, I don't think Collins could have had any complaints on that front.

Collins allegedly walked because we wouldn't sanction the signing of the boy Hammel, though as far as I can remember that signing would have taken Collins past his wage budget, which is why it wasn't sanctioned.

I think Collins could tell at that point that he wasn't likely to improve Hibs and so jumped ship, leaving us in an awful state IMHO.

We do seem to have a lack of a real team spirit at the club though, maybe the squad is too big, maybe too many players are bad influences for whatever reasons...

I don't think it's something that is deep rooted at the club, though. A good manager will address it.

IMHO, we need a smaller, better, tighter squad. A recognised first eleven that plays consistently together is needed.

That is where the team spirit comes from. We need to be a team that wins and loses together, rather than 11 players that win and lose with some of the same players and some different ones each week.

[PapillonVert]

Some interesting points, but having seen first hand the levels of professionalism amongst the staff at Hibs, I don't think Collins could have had any complaints on that front.

Collins allegedly walked because we wouldn't sanction the signing of the boy Hammel, though as far as I can remember that signing would have taken Collins past his wage budget, which is why it wasn't sanctioned.

I think Collins could tell at that point that he wasn't likely to improve Hibs and so jumped ship, leaving us in an awful state IMHO.

We do seem to have a lack of a real team spirit at the club though, maybe the squad is too big, maybe too many players are bad influences for whatever reasons...

I don't think it's something that is deep rooted at the club, though. A good manager will address it.

IMHO, we need a smaller, better, tighter squad. A recognised first eleven that plays consistently together is needed.

That is where the team spirit comes from. We need to be a team that wins and loses together, rather than 11 players that win and lose with some of the same players and some different ones each week.

Thanks, Matty, I didn't realise there was a specific incident that made Collins go. Although I find it hard to believe that someone would go because of one player only - presumably he saw the proverbial writing on the wall and, if the Board wouldn't sanction that particfular signing, then they wouldn't sanction others he felt necessary to push the club on?

I find it interesting that CC has brought in another fitness coach - I would like to think because he wants to move things onto a higher level but could it be because he thinks the basic level is too low now?

Anyway, I do not envy CC his new job. It's good news that the club is in a position to get rid of a large number of the current squad by natural wastage (oh, how appropriate is that term!) but will we be able to attract the right level of player when we are in the 1st Division?

[matty_f]

Thanks, Matty, I didn't realise there was a specific incident that made Collins go. Although I find it hard to believe that someone would go because of one player only - presumably he saw the proverbial writing on the wall and, if the Board wouldn't sanction that particfular signing, then they wouldn't sanction others he felt necessary to push the club on?

I find it interesting that CC has brought in another fitness coach - I would like to think because he wants to move things onto a higher level but could it be because he thinks the basic level is too low now?

Anyway, I do not envy CC his new job. It's good news that the club is in a position to get rid of a large number of the current squad by natural wastage (oh, how appropriate is that term!) but will we be able to attract the right level of player when we are in the 1st Division?

This is where CC has to prove his worth in the January window. Retaining SPL status is an absolute must for Hibs. No question about it. We cannot (and IMHO, will not) get relegated again. It would be disasterous for us.

[PapillonVert]

This is where CC has to prove his worth in the January window. Retaining SPL status is an absolute must for Hibs. No question about it. We cannot (and IMHO, will not) get relegated again. It would be disasterous for us.

Yes, my remaining hope for this season is that we survive in the Premier league and CC can start the major rebuilding that is painfully and clearly necessary. Also, that he can bring in types who are dedicated and professional and not just interested in picking up a nice wee wage to support a party lifestyle.

[Steve-O]

Have we signed any 'unknowns' who were good since John Park left?

[Kaiser1962]

Have we signed any 'unknowns' who were good since John Park left?

John Park is certainly a miss but, again, we cant compete with Celtic. I am hopeful that CC will have already identified some players who could do a job that are languishing in the stiffs at English clubs. Or some older, more experienced pro's who could still do a job in the short term.

[Steve-O]

Clearly, we need better scouts.

That was really my point.

The ones that are there are identifying players that are total ***** and not good enough for the SPL.

[Hibbyradge]

Alan O'Brien?

I didn't say more expensive equals better.

But better usually means more expensive.

We need to get some decent players in, and soon.

To do that, I think we will have to pay transfer fees and decent wages.

If we continue to scrape around for "Bosmans", we're risking our SPL status and losing that will cost a lot more.

What folk seem to want is for our manager and scouting team to spot players who have no idea how good they really are and who will therefore sign for us for less than they're really worth.

Oh, and they have to be out of contract. And under the radar of every other club in the UK who are all also looking for cheap superstars.

It's a strategy, right enough, and it's worked in a handful of cases in my lifetime.

However, paying a transfer fee and good wages, is probably more reliable.