Dundee deducted 25pts

[greenlex]

As title. Deducted 25 pts for going into Administration. Oh dear.

[easty]

As title. Deducted 25 pts for going into Administration. Oh dear.

Is that a standard amount, decided by the SFL before the season started? Or has a committee of folk just sat round a table and come to a "25 points sounds about right" decision?

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm sure it's a rational, well thought out response and is inscribed in FIFA approved procedures. It's hardly as if we have incompetent custodians of our game who would allow football clubs to fall into the wrong hands in the first place.

[greenlex]

Is that a standard amount, decided by the SFL before the season started? Or has a committee of folk just sat round a table and come to a "25 points sounds about right" decision?
Dunno but thats the punishment. They have a right to appeal. But as it stands they are now bottom of the 1st Division with minus 11pts and that is 20pts behind Morton the team who were there before today if I have my maths right.

[H18sry]

So Livingstone were relegated 2 divisions yet Dundee are only docked 25 points :confused: where is the fairness in that :confused:

[greenlex]

So Livingstone were relegated 2 divisions yet Dundee are only docked 25 points :confused: where is the fairness in that :confused:
Dunno the in s and outs of it Ronnie but I think Dundee also have some sort of transfer embargo to deal with as well as the points dedutction. Were the two situations the same?

[HenryMonk]

So Livingstone were relegated 2 divisions yet Dundee are only docked 25 points :confused: where is the fairness in that :confused:

excatly!! why is this? its not as they've (dundee) not been in admin before.

if i was a livi supporter i would not be happy.

[oldbutdim]

Dunno the in s and outs of it Ronnie but I think Dundee also have some sort of transfer embargo to deal with as well as the points dedutction. Were the two situations the same?

No - Livi failed to fulfil fixtures hence the heavy duty punshment.
Quite different.

[aberhibsfc]

It'll be interesting to see if they can steal enough to stay in 1st Div.

Seems a bit unfair though when compared with Livingston's punishment, is it because they'd rather not lose the income as fans may drop away if in 3rd, whereas Livi never had that much anyway?

[H18sry]

Dunno the in s and outs of it Ronnie but I think Dundee also have some sort of transfer embargo to deal with as well as the points dedutction. Were the two situations the same?

Scott M will know more about it :agree:

[ScottB]

What the BBC are saying...

Dundee Football Club have been deducted 25 points by the Scottish Football League for going into administration.

The First Division outfit have also been banned from signing any new players until they come out of the administration process.

The SFL board said in a statement: "We are of the opinion that lessons are not being learned.

"Clubs have to realise that they can't treat their HMRC tax obligations as something akin to a credit card."

More to follow.


Sorry but I have to agree with that, lessons aren't being learned and some clubs are being consciously run (like Dundee) with the intention of not paying tax, of spending way beyond their means etc etc at the expense of those clubs that choose to do things right. Why should they get to spend themselves into a hole, go into administration, screw their creditors then bounce back almost as if nothing happened? Where's the incentive for clubs like Hibs to cut their cloth accordingly if the punishments for this sort of thing aren't tough?

[IWasThere2016]

No - Livi failed to fulfil fixtures hence the heavy duty punshment. Quite different.

Correct.

[Caversham Green]

Livi entered administration during the close season. The reason they didn't fulfil a fixture (against East Stirling?) was because they were disputing their punishment IIRC.

[KeithTheHibby]

No sympathy for them, a spell in the lower leagues will be a lesson for them.

Administration twice in 7 years, it is hard to feel sorry for them.

[CmoantheHibs]

Were the fixture/fixtures Livi didnt play not 3rd division ones because they were in dispute at their punishment of a 2 league drop and they didnt want to play them as it was akin to accepting the punishment before their appeal was heard?Not 100?% on this but if it is the case then they must have been dropped 2 leagues for going into administration as the non playing of fixtures was after the initial punishment.

[scoopyboy]

It will be reduced on appeal.

[Spike Mandela]

What the BBC are saying...

Dundee Football Club have been deducted 25 points by the Scottish Football League for going into administration.

The First Division outfit have also been banned from signing any new players until they come out of the administration process.

The SFL board said in a statement: "We are of the opinion that lessons are not being learned. "Clubs have to realise that they can't treat their HMRC tax obligations as something akin to a credit card."

More to follow.


Sorry but I have to agree with that, lessons aren't being learned and some clubs are being consciously run (like Dundee) with the intention of not paying tax, of spending way beyond their means etc etc at the expense of those clubs that choose to do things right. Why should they get to spend themselves into a hole, go into administration, screw their creditors then bounce back almost as if nothing happened? Where's the incentive for clubs like Hibs to cut their cloth accordingly if the punishments for this sort of thing aren't tough?

Agree entirely. Clubs need to be encouraged not to spend above their means. Administration has to be seen as a last resort rather than a relatively soft landing on an almighty fall.

Sad for innocent fans of Dundee but a warning to club officials on how to run a business and for fans to ensure they monitor what club officials are doing as well.

A timely reminder to all of us, despite our relatively good financial position we can't take our eye off the ball.

I wonder if the SPL would be so harsh to member clubs though.

[Hibs Class]

A 10 point deduction (as their administrator noticed recently thay could cope with)would have been meaningless. As promotion this season was looking unlikely it wouldn't have stopped them winning the league, whilst losing ten points would probably still have seen them finish mid-table. 25 points seems to me to be fair - I would hope that any appeal carried the possibility that the punishment could be increased as well as confirmed as is, or decreased.

[ScottB]

I don't see what right they should to appeal, it wasn't an accident, it was a conscious decision by their Board to pursue this policy. Tough frankly.

[frazeHFC]

25 points!!! I thought it would have just been 10.

[Phil MaGlass]

So lets get this right, if hertz are 30 odd million in debt, and lets say next year the league is pushed up to 14 or 16 teams, what is to stop hertz going into administration taking the 25 pt hit in the knowledge they wont be going down anyway?

[ScottB]

So lets get this right, if hertz are 30 odd million in debt, and lets say next year the league is pushed up to 14 or 16 teams, what is to stop hertz going into administration taking the 25 pt hit in the knowledge they wont be going down anyway?

I'd expect a couple of SPL Clubs to do that once expansion is announced to be honest. Not Hearts though, Administration would see too many people trying to unpick the financial web over there.

I think the precedent set here is go into Administration once, 10 points off, do it again, 25 points off. I have no complaints with that, if a club can't learn its lesson once, tough!

[CmoantheHibs]

So lets get this right, if hertz are 30 odd million in debt, and lets say next year the league is pushed up to 14 or 16 teams, what is to stop hertz going into administration taking the 25 pt hit in the knowledge they wont be going down anyway?

Good point:agree:Probably fairer to have either a 1 or 2 league drop as standard punishment.

[Phil MaGlass]

Good point:agree:Probably fairer to have either a 1 or 2 league drop as standard punishment.

Its nothing short of criminal, you wouldnt get away with stealing 30 million(mind you Vlad has) and you leave alot of folk shortchanged, a definite 2 or 3 division drop should be implemented, 10 pts or 25 is not enough.
So clubs like Rangers and hertz will just be waiting for the expansion?

[hibhib7]

What the BBC are saying...

Dundee Football Club have been deducted 25 points by the Scottish Football League for going into administration.

The First Division outfit have also been banned from signing any new players until they come out of the administration process.

The SFL board said in a statement: "We are of the opinion that lessons are not being learned.

"Clubs have to realise that they can't treat their HMRC tax obligations as something akin to a credit card."

More to follow.


Sorry but I have to agree with that, lessons aren't being learned and some clubs are being consciously run (like Dundee) with the intention of not paying tax, of spending way beyond their means etc etc at the expense of those clubs that choose to do things right. Why should they get to spend themselves into a hole, go into administration, screw their creditors then bounce back almost as if nothing happened? Where's the incentive for clubs like Hibs to cut their cloth accordingly if the punishments for this sort of thing aren't tough?What have Heart of Midlothian Roman Catholics got to do with it?

[CyberSauzee]

Is that a standard amount, decided by the SFL before the season started? Or has a committee of folk just sat round a table and come to a "25 points sounds about right" decision?

Haven't you heard of the points deduction dartboard? The SFA invite an nonagenarian from the local bowling club for a cup of tea and get him/her to throw an arrow at said board until something hits and stays in. Cheaper than committees.

[weecounty hibby]

Absolutely the correct decision, I hope they don't win any appeal. The auhoritie both financial and football should now start to pursue ALL other clubs in the same situation. It is ascandal the footbal clubs are allowed to bump other businesses and continue to trade with little or no punishment.

For clubs to be in this situation it means that they have creditors that haven't been paid, in a lot of cases this will be smallish local businesses that may also end up bankrupt due to non payment of bills by football clubs. Football in general needs a reality check and I certainly wont be upset if some clubs are closed down due to financial mismanagement.

[heretoday]

Any chance of Hibs being awarded 25 points for financial prudence? :agree:

[Kaiser1962]

Any chance of Hibs being awarded 25 points for financial prudence? :agree:

:top marks

[Hibbyradge]

No sympathy for them, a spell in the lower leagues will be a lesson for them.

Administration twice in 7 years, it is hard to feel sorry for them.

I would have thought that would have made it twice as easy to feel sorry for them, no?

[Hibbyradge]

So lets get this right, if hertz are 30 odd million in debt, and lets say next year the league is pushed up to 14 or 16 teams, what is to stop hertz going into administration taking the 25 pt hit in the knowledge they wont be going down anyway?

There's more to administration that just a loss of league points.

Players and managers are made redundant, assets are sold, finances are investigated, transfers are put on hold.

Administration isn't a cake walk.

[Phil MaGlass]

There's more to administration that just a loss of league points.
Players and managers are made redundant, assets are sold, finances are investigated, transfers are put on hold.

Administration isn't a cake walk.

F,n sounds like it. Players will be transfer listed, all assets sold then the club is sold for peanuts to a 3rd party,all remaining debts almost virtually wiped out after a new takeover and they start up again with a clean bill of health,new stadium on outskirts of Edinburgh and a new set of 30 Lithuanians,minus 10 pts? Bobs yir auntie, cakewalk.

[essexhibee]

Now is the time to get griffiths on the cheap if we feel hes worth it.

[HibeeMcGinn1]

Any chance of Hibs being awarded 25 points for financial prudence? :agree:

:thumbsup: Oh how I wish.


I think the January transfer window will decide their future. If they lose the core of the team (which they probably will) then they will struggle. With the transfer embargo they would need to play fringe players or youngsters. 20 points below Morton is doable but whether they will have the fight to do it is a different story.

[ElginHibee]

They deserve every point of it! No sympathy here.

[Sumner]

25 is a bit steep, might have well been 100.

Of course when rumours of Rangers having this
problem surfaced the Weeg blazers would have
settled for 25 points deducted of course... aye right!

[Sylar]

Not surprised they were given a hefty points deduction - for once the SFL have used their head a little, as a 2 division demotion would have caused havoc to the second and third division, which would be utterly unfair to the integrity of the competitions of divisions 2 and 3.

The situation was EXACTLY the same as Livingston, so where I can understand some Livingston fans being a bit peeved that the punishments were different, the SFL have all but ensured that Dundee will be relegated at the close of the season and have said they will revisit the situation in March, with a view to further punishment should nothing have changed.

This "Livingston didn't fulfill fixtures" is a nonsense - Livingston were demoted BEFORE the start of the season - they failed to fulfill a 3rd division fixture vs East Stirlingshire, as they were appealing their demotion. The lack of fulfillment happened AFTER they were demoted.

They were asked to post a bond of £750k to ensure they could fulfill their fixtures in the first division, which the new board did, but were relegated anyway. The whole situation surrounding Livi still stinks to this day IMO.

Here's hoping this will serve as a lesson to any other clubs who live outwith their means, because evidently Livingston and Gretna weren't example enough.

Interestingly, with people asking if this is standard, the answer is a categorical "no". There are no rules in the SFL for dealing with teams who go into administration, and the really funny thing is that those people who decide on the nature of the punishment are very often chairmen of other clubs who stand to potentially benefit from the punishment they dish out. I.e. - Airdrie were given a vote when Livingstons fate was being decided and they were in line to be promoted - fair? The blazers at the top of the game don't understand this word.

[CropleyWasGod]

Interestingly, with people asking if this is standard, the answer is a categorical "no". There are no rules in the SFL for dealing with teams who go into administration, and the really funny thing is that those people who decide on the nature of the punishment are very often chairmen of other clubs who stand to potentially benefit from the punishment they dish out. I.e. - Airdrie were given a vote when Livingstons fate was being decided and they were in line to be promoted - fair? The blazers at the top of the game don't understand this word.

To be fair, Dunfermline were the the only club having an "interest" who were represented on the committee that decided on Dundee's case. Jim Leishman excused himself from the discussion.

[Dashing Bob S]

I can still see them jetpacking their way to safety.

[Septimus]

I look at the state of Scottish football and I dispair. The ba' as we used to say is firmly on the slates.

[Just Jimmy]

Not surprised they were given a hefty points deduction - for once the SFL have used their head a little, as a 2 division demotion would have caused havoc to the second and third division, which would be utterly unfair to the integrity of the competitions of divisions 2 and 3.

The situation was EXACTLY the same as Livingston, so where I can understand some Livingston fans being a bit peeved that the punishments were different, the SFL have all but ensured that Dundee will be relegated at the close of the season and have said they will revisit the situation in March, with a view to further punishment should nothing have changed.

This "Livingston didn't fulfill fixtures" is a nonsense - Livingston were demoted BEFORE the start of the season - they failed to fulfill a 3rd division fixture vs East Stirlingshire, as they were appealing their demotion. The lack of fulfillment happened AFTER they were demoted.

They were asked to post a bond of £750k to ensure they could fulfill their fixtures in the first division, which the new board did, but were relegated anyway. The whole situation surrounding Livi still stinks to this day IMO.

Here's hoping this will serve as a lesson to any other clubs who live outwith their means, because evidently Livingston and Gretna weren't example enough.

Interestingly, with people asking if this is standard, the answer is a categorical "no". There are no rules in the SFL for dealing with teams who go into administration, and the really funny thing is that those people who decide on the nature of the punishment are very often chairmen of other clubs who stand to potentially benefit from the punishment they dish out. I.e. - Airdrie were given a vote when Livingstons fate was being decided and they were in line to be promoted - fair? The blazers at the top of the game don't understand this word.

Scott, I understand where you are coming from. I also understand it sounds bitter. However, I cannot abide cheating, and in 2004 Livingston cheated their way to winning a trophy with players they couldn't afford, while we played kids who froze on the day.

Livingston can get it right up them.