Mark Clattenburg

[Sylar]

WTF?! :confused:

[Stenny]

hand ball by Nani, should have been a free kick..

unbelievable :bitchy:

[ClewsHibs]

whats he done :confused:

[Gatecrasher]

hand ball by Nani, should have been a free kick..

unbelievable :bitchy:

shocking decision, ruined a decent game as well

[Hanny]

Play to the whistle.

Gomes should've cleared the ball instead of expecting a free kick.

[PaulSmith]

whats he done :confused:

He signalled advantage to Spurs, keeper has the ball in his hands, runs 10 yards and the decides he either wants a free kick or forgets Nani is behind him. Nani realises the ref hasn't stopped the game and rolls in the the net.= goal.

[ClewsHibs]

He signalled advantage to Spurs, keeper has the ball in his hands, runs 10 yards and the decides he either wants a free kick or forgets Nani is behind him. Nani realises the ref hasn't stopped the game and rolls in the the net.= goal.

MOTD will be a good watch tonight then

[Sylar]

Nani dives (not the first time in the match either, the cheating little scrote) and grabs the ball, expecting a penalty, to which the linesman raises his flag. Gomes puts the ball down to take a quite rightfully free kick, complaining because Nani is standing in front of the ball - the ref shrugs, Nani puts the ball into the net and a goal is awarded, despite the linesman confirming it shouldn't stand.

Absolute farce.

[Capt Mainwaring]

I don't see what the issue is. Yes Nani falling and handling the ball should have been free kick but since it rolled into the goalie's hands he's allowed play to continue. Gomez then throws the ball to the ground to kick upfield, but some some reason allows Nani to nip in and kick it in the net.

It's the Goalie at fault here - not the Referee.

[PISTOL1875]

No danger the ref was at fault here.. The ref never blew for a foul when Nani went to ground.. The play is still going on.. Gomes dropped the ball and Nani scored...

The ball is still in play when Gomes put the ball down..

Goal should correctly stand...

[Hanny]

Gomes puts the ball down to take a quite rightfully free kick

No.

The referee didn't give a free kick.

Nani was right to play on. Gomes made an erse of it.

[Hanny]

No danger the ref was at fault here.. The ref never blew for a foul when Nani went to ground.. The play is still going on.. Gomes dropped the ball and Nani scored...

The ball is still in play when Gomes put the ball down..

Goal should correctly stand...

Spot on.

I think the ref should've gave a free kick for the hand ball, but he didn't, so play on.

[Sylar]

No danger the ref was at fault here.. The ref never blew for a foul when Nani went to ground.. The play is still going on.. Gomes dropped the ball and Nani scored...

The ball is still in play when Gomes put the ball down..

Goal should correctly stand...

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.

[derekHFC]

Nani dives (not the first time in the match either, the cheating little scrote) and grabs the ball, expecting a penalty, to which the linesman raises his flag. Gomes puts the ball down to take a quite rightfully free kick, complaining because Nani is standing in front of the ball - the ref shrugs, Nani puts the ball into the net and a goal is awarded, despite the linesman confirming it shouldn't stand.

Absolute farce.

No he doesnt. Its just shown you it on ESPN.


No danger the ref was at fault here.. The ref never blew for a foul when Nani went to ground.. The play is still going on.. Gomes dropped the ball and Nani scored...

The ball is still in play when Gomes put the ball down..

Goal should correctly stand...

:agree:

[Hanny]

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.

....and the referee didn't give it! So play continues...

[Sylar]

No.

The referee didn't give a free kick.

Nani was right to play on. Gomes made an erse of it.

Nani was right to play on, but shouldn't have been afforded the chance to do so. He was HOLDING the ball whilst sitting on the ground. It wasn't a marginal hand-ball, he was sitting HOLDING the ball.

Farcical.

[wazoo1875]

No danger the ref was at fault here.. The ref never blew for a foul when Nani went to ground.. The play is still going on.. Gomes dropped the ball and Nani scored...

The ball is still in play when Gomes put the ball down..

Goal should correctly stand...

Spot on assessment , by a city fan too :greengrin

Play the whistle Gomes

[PISTOL1875]

Spot on.

I think the ref should've gave a free kick for the hand ball, but he didn't, so play on.


You're always told ' play to the whistle '. At no point did the whistle sound so the ball is still alive...

I thought the should've gave a free kick for handball but he let it go as Spurs had the ball with Gomes...

Gomes made a mess of it and it was his fault they lost 2-0...

[PaulSmith]

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.

The asst did not flag for any offence prior to Nani passing the ball into the net.

[derekHFC]

Nani was right to play on, but shouldn't have been afforded the chance to do so. He was HOLDING the ball whilst sitting on the ground. It wasn't a marginal hand-ball, he was sitting HOLDING the ball.

Farcical.

Sounds like a Spurs fan with a chip on their shoulder here.

He never held onto the ball, he touched it with his hand.

[Hibby Bairn]

Play the whistle. End of discussion.

[Sylar]

Yep, fair enough, the linesman didn't flag immediately - I thought he had.

It's still an utter joke that both officials missed such a ridiculous hand ball. Not fit for purpose if they can't see/act upon such an obvious breach of the rules.

[CB_NO3]

I think the Ref got it spot on. He told the player to get up and let the game continue and that is what happened.

[Hanny]

Nani was right to play on, but shouldn't have been afforded the chance to do so. He was HOLDING the ball whilst sitting on the ground. It wasn't a marginal hand-ball, he was sitting HOLDING the ball.

Farcical.

The ref missed or didn't give the free kick for the hand ball, fair enough.

But.

Gomes was in full control of the ball, so maybe the ref saw fit to play on as Spurs had the ball, not much difference from Gomes punting the ball up field to a free kick.

Gomes then dropped the ball and Nani took advantage.

[PISTOL1875]

Yep, fair enough, the linesman didn't flag immediately - I thought he had.

It's still an utter joke that both officials missed such a ridiculous hand ball. Not fit for purpose if they can't see/act upon such an obvious breach of the rules.

Maybe the ref didn't see fit to blow for handball as Spurs were in control of the ball with Gomes ???

[Sylar]

Sounds like a Spurs fan with a chip on their shoulder here.

He never held onto the ball, he touched it with his hand.

Not at all - I just like to see decisions made in a rational and fair manner.

I doubt it would have changed the outcome of the game, but it was ridiculous to "miss" such an obvious hand-ball.

[HH81]

It was a joke really, ref messed it up without doubt. I think its time we got refs from other countries at old trafford something is not right :) It was the same ref that didnt give the spurs goal a few years back. If it had been up the other end fergie's head would have exploded.

[Winston Ingram]

I don't see what the issue is. Yes Nani falling and handling the ball should have been free kick but since it rolled into the goalie's hands he's allowed play to continue. Gomez then throws the ball to the ground to kick upfield, but some some reason allows Nani to nip in and kick it in the net.

It's the Goalie at fault here - not the Referee.

It din't roll into the goalies hands. Nani grabbed it. Goalie then picked it up and put down for a free-kick

[Winston Ingram]

I think the Ref got it spot on. He told the player to get up and let the game continue and that is what happened.

He told the player to get up and he grabbed the ball:confused:

[Capt Mainwaring]

It din't roll into the goalies hands. Nani grabbed it. Goalie then picked it up and put down for a free-kick

Then that's the real issue. The Referee didn't blow for a free kick and play was still live.

Pretty bad decision then for Gomez to assume that it SHOULD have been a free kick and allow Nani to kick it into the net. Play to the whistle young man!

The Goalie is to blame here not the ref. Refs get a tough time of it but on this occassion

My god - can you imagine the uproar iof this had happened in a Celtic or Rangers game!!

[ClewsHibs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSEK7VACZ4

not the best video but its the only one i could find

[mim]

Nani handled the ball.
Gomes gained possesion, so the referee allowed play to contine.
Gomes put the ball on the ground to take a freekick, but the whistle had not gone.
Nani came from behind him and rolled the ball into the net.
You can argue that there was no advantage to Spurs, so the freekick for handball should have been given, but the fact is that the ball was in play and it was a legitimate goal.

Gomes was at fault.

[Gatecrasher]

i wonder if people would be so happy to say it was the keepers fault if it were a rangers or celtic goal.

somehow i cant see it

[Winston Ingram]

Then that's the real issue. The Referee didn't blow for a free kick and play was still live.

Pretty bad decision then for Gomez to assume that it SHOULD have been a free kick and allow Nani to kick it into the net. Play to the whistle young man!

The Goalie is to blame here not the ref. Refs get a tough time of it but on this occassion

My god - can you imagine the uproar iof this had happened in a Celtic or Rangers game!!

The OP is questioning Clattenburg so the issue is Clattenburg. He dived, (should have been a free-kick and a booking) he then deliberately handled the ball, (another free-kick and a booking).

The fact he didn't give a free-kick for the 2 blatant infringements was bad enough. The lino then gave him a chance to change his mind and the tube over ruled him.

[stevenhibs]

You're spot on but we have the benefit of being impartial so can see it as it should be. However, had it been Zibi that did it....

Gomes tried to award himself a free kick. He failed. As others have said, Spurs had regained the ball so play on way a fair shout to be honest.

Gomes 100% to blame for me.


i wonder if people would be so happy to say it was the keepers fault if it were a rangers or celtic goal.

somehow i cant see it

[Dirkster23]

only one person to balme and that's Gomes:agree:

[Capt Mainwaring]

The OP is questioning Clattenburg so the issue is Clattenburg. He dived, (should have been a free-kick and a booking) he then deliberately handled the ball, (another free-kick and a booking).

The fact he didn't give a free-kick for the 2 blatant infringements was bad enough. The lino then gave him a chance to change his mind and the tube over ruled him.

Ok - fair enough. Clattenburg didn't blow his whistle so the play was live. How much of a fool is Gomez?

It's an advatage for the Goalie to have the ball lin hand and able to get to the edge of the 18 yard line to kick from hand rather than a free kick in the 6 yard box from a dead ball.

It's a complete irrelevance whether Nani dived or handled the ball - the fact is that the Referee didn't stop the play and the ball was live. It was up to Gomez, who was in complete control of the ball, to clear it. He didn't, made an @rse of it, Nani scored - end of!

Gomez to blame - not Clattenburg.

[madabouthibs]

Ref got it right in this case, and I'm delighted.
Yes, handball from Nani, the dive or no dive is debatable, but the whole scenario leading to the goal was the keepers fault. Even if it was a free kick, he was taking it from about 10 yards from where the handball occured! Play to the whistle, we even used to shout that at Sunday drunkfitba League FFS!!:grr: :greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Can't believe the number of times Spurs have been shafted by referees at Old Trafford. Scandalous :grr:

[CropleyWasGod]

Can't believe the number of times Spurs have been shafted by referees at Old Trafford. Scandalous :grr:

If Spurs were shafted, it was by the "scandalous" stupidity of their keeper.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

What a prat the goalie is. The ref was right to let the game continue as Gomes had the ball in his hands, no need to blow for a foul unless he's gonna book Nani. The ball was in play so Nani had every right to play it.

[blackpoolhibs]

Gomez was a numpty for what he did. Although the ref and his linesman should be dropped from the EPL for not spotting the hand ball between them.

[TornadoHibby]

shocking decision, ruined a decent game as well

How did you reach that conclusion!? :confused:

It made absolutely no difference to the match outcome - Man Utd were never going to finish other than with 3 points! :agree:

[TornadoHibby]

Play to the whistle.

Gomes should've cleared the ball instead of expecting a free kick.

Wot he said! :agree:

[archiebald]

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.
No whistle play on primary school gomez is an idiot

[brianmc]

Firstly let me say I've not seen the incident that's provoked this thread. So,off topic,how do you think having instant video replays would realistically help the standard of refereeing decisions when you read through the differences if opinions here from people who have actually all seen the same "tv evidence"? Discuss.

[TornadoHibby]

Nani dives (not the first time in the match either, the cheating little scrote) and grabs the ball, expecting a penalty, to which the linesman raises his flag. Gomes puts the ball down to take a quite rightfully free kick, complaining because Nani is standing in front of the ball - the ref shrugs, Nani puts the ball into the net and a goal is awarded, despite the linesman confirming it shouldn't stand.

Absolute farce.

Erm no he didn't! :cool2:

Misguided analysis of what you thought happened rather than what actually happened! :agree:

The ref NEVER whistled for a free kick nor did the linesman wave his flag UNTIL Nani had put the ball in the net! FACTS! :agree:

[archiebald]

Gomez was a numpty for what he did. Although the ref and his linesman should be dropped from the EPL for not spotting the hand ball between them.
They got advantage play on, quick free kick

[TornadoHibby]

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.

Erm, no he didn't as I said earlier! You've just made that up to suit your "argument" IMO! :agree:

No one realistically doubts that Nani touched the ball but the FACTS are that the ref did not blow his whistle to award a free kick nor did the linesman wave his flag to point out a handball offence to the ref! :confused:

[Onceinawhile]

at the end of the day, Nani is in my fantasy football team.

Therefore.

Goal should have counted.

Also Mark Clattenburg has terrible hair.

[TornadoHibby]

Nani was right to play on, but shouldn't have been afforded the chance to do so. He was HOLDING the ball whilst sitting on the ground. It wasn't a marginal hand-ball, he was sitting HOLDING the ball.

Farcical.

IMO the ref believed that Spurs had the advantage, Gomez had possession and there was no need to award a free kick as a result! :agree:

Gomez was a twat and that is how Nani got possession to score the goal! :cool2:

[TornadoHibby]

Maybe the ref didn't see fit to blow for handball as Spurs were in control of the ball with Gomes ???

Absolutely spot on! :agree:

[TornadoHibby]

The OP is questioning Clattenburg so the issue is Clattenburg. He dived, (should have been a free-kick and a booking) he then deliberately handled the ball, (another free-kick and a booking).

The fact he didn't give a free-kick for the 2 blatant infringements was bad enough. The lino then gave him a chance to change his mind and the tube over ruled him.

You have missed the penalty offence (which wasn't given) before Nani dived! :cool2:

[TornadoHibby]

Can't believe the number of times Spurs have been shafted by referees at Old Trafford. Scandalous :grr:

They weren't this time though mate! :wink:

[Hiber-nation]

If Spurs were shafted, it was by the "scandalous" stupidity of their keeper.

I don't really care what Gomez did, the ref wasn't playing advantage, he didn't see the handball, the linesman surely told him it was handball and he did nothing. The correct decision would have been to stop the play and book that little scrote for diving.

And to wave the Spurs players away then let Ferdinand stand here...so typical.

[matty_f]

Gomez was a numpty for what he did. Although the ref and his linesman should be dropped from the EPL for not spotting the hand ball between them.

Think he saw the handball but let play continue as Gomez picked the ball up. I don't think Clattenburg has done much wrong here, the fault is with Gomez.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

IMO the ref believed that Spurs had the advantage, Gomez had possession and there was no need to award a free kick as a result! :agree:

Gomez was a twat and that is how Nani got possession to score the goal! :cool2:

Too often refs get criticised for stopping play all the time when they should be playing an advantage, the ref here is getting slack for not stopping play. A goalkeeper having the ball in his hands is better for him than having to place the ball down 2 yards from his goal line which is where any free kick should have been taken from.

[Broken Gnome]

Probably everyone involved in the incident didn't cover themselves in glory to be honest...

Nani went down cheaply then deliberately handled the ball - if neither of those merited a booking, the stupid hissy fit definitely did.

If it wasn't a penalty, and Clattenberg didn't feel the need to book Nani for diving or handball (which he probably shouldn't have done) - then he technically should've made the 'play on' gesture to confirm to everyone that Gomes had possession in play. The hands going up to signify advantage happen often enough, would've helped no end here. Contrary to what they said on Match of the Day, the referee did put his whistle to his mouth as well (not that it matters, but all round officiating wasn't great).

And Gomes... well, Gomes is an idiot. Rio Ferdinand acted fairly appalling as well as he attempted to influence the situation, not sure why the linesman took so much flak. He saw the handball, it wasn't crystal clear that advantage was being played and in turn the goal looked a bit debatable - why shouldn't he put his flag up to make sure everything was legit?

[blackpoolhibs]

Think he saw the handball but let play continue as Gomez picked the ball up. I don't think Clattenburg has done much wrong here, the fault is with Gomez.

You could be right, although if that goal was given against Hibs we'd not be pleased.

[matty_f]

You could be right, although if that goal was given against Hibs we'd not be pleased.

I'd be raging about it.

Would be encouraging Hibs to write to the SFA for an explanation, and would start sending threatening letters to the ref, before going onto a Celtc forum and trying to get everyone to believe that the whole world's against us.:greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd be raging about it.

Would be encouraging Hibs to write to the SFA for an explanation, and would start sending threatening letters to the ref, before going onto a Celtc forum and trying to get everyone to believe that the whole world's against us.:greengrin

:faf::faf:

[lapsedhibee]

Nani went down cheaply then deliberately handled the ball - if neither of those merited a booking, the stupid hissy fit definitely did.
Rio Ferdinand acted fairly appalling as well as he attempted to influence the situation, not sure why the linesman took so much flak.

Agree about Nani and Ferdinand, and week in week out you can lipread Rooney telling officials to get to Falkirk. What Manure players get away with from refs is matched only by what The Crab used to get away with when he was with the Huns.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Surely if the ref was playing "advantage", he couldve pulled it back when nani rolled it in the net.
The linesman is seen telling the spurs defender that he knows it was handball, yet the goal was allowed.
Nani reacted like a little b£&ch after he lost the ball.
Plenty reasons for the goal not to count ;)

[Sylar]

Erm no he didn't! :cool2:

Misguided analysis of what you thought happened rather than what actually happened! :agree:

The ref NEVER whistled for a free kick nor did the linesman wave his flag UNTIL Nani had put the ball in the net! FACTS! :agree:


Erm, no he didn't as I said earlier! You've just made that up to suit your "argument" IMO! :agree:

No one realistically doubts that Nani touched the ball but the FACTS are that the ref did not blow his whistle to award a free kick nor did the linesman wave his flag to point out a handball offence to the ref! :confused:


Yep, fair enough, the linesman didn't flag immediately - I thought he had.

It's still an utter joke that both officials missed such a ridiculous hand ball. Not fit for purpose if they can't see/act upon such an obvious breach of the rules.

:rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

Too often refs get criticised for stopping play all the time when they should be playing an advantage, the ref here is getting slack for not stopping play. A goalkeeper having the ball in his hands is better for him than having to place the ball down 2 yards from his goal line which is where any free kick should have been taken from.

:top marks

And why was Gomes going to take a ree kick two yards from the eighteen yard line when the handball happened on the bye line? Linseman flagged to make sure the ref hadnt missed the handball and the reason he was late was, IMO, because he too saw that Gomes had an advantage from having the ball in hand and able to clear it into ManU's half whereas a free kick would barely have reached halfway. The only other option is to ban the advantage rule.

[Kaiser1962]

On a separate note here's a high profile incident covered by many camera's and there's now three pages of differing opinions on a very clear incident.

Television evidence is obviously the answer to all our woes....:greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

On a separate note here's a high profile incident covered by many camera's and there's now three pages of differing opinions on a very clear incident.

Television evidence is obviously the answer to all our woes....:greengrin

Exactly - TV evidence can never work on matters of opinion.

Goal line technology should be used though IMO - except for England games :wink:

[Kaiser1962]

But the day after the England "goal" that "goal line technology" would have righted the wrong, Carlos Tevez was clearly five yards offside when scoring against Mexico (?).......OR WAS HE? :greengrin


Exactly - TV evidence can never work on matters of opinion.

Goal line technology should be used though IMO - except for England games :wink:

[malcolm]

if you don't like UTD - they you will say what a turnip the ref was

If you love UTD then - you'll say what a superb reaction from Nani

If yo are a neutral then you'd say that:



that keeper was a prat :greengrin,

that the ref thought it was not a penalty but not clearly a dive and commonsensibly ignored the hand ball (subjective opinion that Nani is a scrote is not allowed by the ref)

giving Spurs the advantage to continue with play with the keeper was fair enough - the option to kick from hand or foot from anywhere in the box is better than a kick from ground on the byeline

if Gomez thought it was a free kick why was was he taking it from nearer the 18yd line than the byeline?

oh and to repeat the keeper Gomez was a prat:greengrin:greengrin

[HibbyAndy]

By the way wasnt Clattenburg the same ref that never gave the goal Spurs got at Old Trafford a few years ago when the ball was WAY WAY WAYYYYYYYYY over the line? Im sure he was.

[Since90+2]

By the way wasnt Clattenburg the same ref that never gave the goal Spurs got at Old Trafford a few years ago when the ball was WAY WAY WAYYYYYYYYY over the line? Im sure he was.

Yip :agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-8dOjeVC80

[HibbyAndy]

Yip :agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-8dOjeVC80


:aok:

Thought so, Cheating bassa:bitchy::bitchy:


That ball was so far over the line its frightning!.

[steviecarnie]

It din't roll into the goalies hands. Nani grabbed it. Goalie then picked it up and put down for a free-kick

put it down for a free kick atleast 10yrds from the offense....... nani fell on the ball and expected the penalty team but he didnt grab it (admittedly didnt remove his hand from the ball)

[jane_says]

....and the referee didn't give it! So play continues...

gomes ran to the linesman and signalled hands to which the linesman clearly says "i know" either the linesman didn't tell clattenberg or clattenberg ignored a deliberate handball which by the law means a yellow card meaning stopping play, etc. yes gomes shouldn't have assumed but i think most would think that a premier league referee would be capable of knowing the rules and applying them to a standard.

[Austinho]

:aok:

Thought so, Cheating bassa:bitchy::bitchy:


That ball was so far over the line its frightning!.Yes, and we all had the benefit of seeing replays on TV - Clattenburg would have been a good 50 yards away from the incident, and received no help from his linesman.

The commentator also mentioned that Man Utd had a penalty appeal turned away in that match, so perhaps isn't quite so one sided as it's being made out to be.

[HibbyAndy]

Yes, and we all had the benefit of seeing replays on TV - Clattenburg would have been a good 50 yards away from the incident, and received no help from his linesman.

The commentator also mentioned that Man Utd had a penalty appeal turned away in that match, so perhaps isn't quite so one sided as it's being made out to be.

True,Point taken :aok:

How the linesman never seen it was 100 feet over the line tho is sheer criminal.

[Austinho]

True,Point taken :aok:

How the linesman never seen it was 100 feet over the line tho is sheer criminal.Yeah, don't think the linesman has many excuses, he was only about 25 yards away!

[delbert]

They say you have to be nuts to be a goalkeeper, and this does nothing to disprove it, but what it once again highlights is the utter lack of knowledge about the Laws of the Game from players. Aside from the fact that as far as I know goalkeepers can't give decisions, I seem to remember from Primary School football upwards that you play to the whistle, yet Gomes obviously was'nt around on those days. Gomes had the ball at his feet, the game was clearly continuing, yet he somehow believes that he is allowed to award a free-kick to himself, maybe we should try that every time a team is attacking against us, just grab the ball and invent an offence. If the referee decides it was not a penalty, and that it was not a deliberate handball, that Spurs have possession and can continue, then he is perfectly entitled to do that. The fact that the assistant flagged only clouded the issue, and as far as I am concerned, he is the guy who should be taking the flak, because I'm pretty sure in the confines of the dressing room, Mark Clattenburg will have ripped him a new one, because unlike the referee, he showed an alarming lack of bottle, he is there after all to assist, not make a mess of things. The only guy that showed any bottle here was the referee, who quite correctly told the assistant to basically stick his flag, and to clarify, this was not an advantage situation, because at no time did the referee signal advantage which he would have to have done, it was simply a case of allowing the game to continue. Having said all that, and knowing how the Premiership referees are told to toe the line, it would not surprise me if Mark Clattenburg has to go to the press and say he made a mess of it, because the guy running the refs down there is a joke, but it all makes for lovely viewing in the end.

[TornadoHibby]

Yeah, don't think the linesman has many excuses, he was only about 25 yards away!

The ref decided that as Gomez already had the ball in his hands after the handball that there was no advantage to Spurs in awarding a free kick (he has the discretion to make that decision) and with Gomez capable then of kicking the ball from hand or the ground or of throwing it to start the next phase of play that made perfect sense in the context of flowing football IMO! He doubtless told the asst ref that when he raised his flag after Nani netted the ball from free play as the ref had never blown his whistle prior to then in that passage of play nor did the linesman raise his flag!

Simples really! :cool2: :wink:

[easty]

If theres an advantage on, regardless of where it is on the pitch, then it should be played. Do we want the refs to try to let games flow or not? He didn't blow for a free-kick because there was no need to....if a Man Utd player handled it in the Man Utd half but Spurs still had possession of the ball would we expect the ref to stop the game or let them get on with it?

[heretoday]

Book Nani, free kick, no goal, get on with game - and I doubt Man Utd would have complained too much, even gobby Rio.

[Kaiser1962]

Book Nani, free kick, no goal, get on with game - and I doubt Man Utd would have complained too much, even gobby Rio.

Very true but if Gomez had thrown/kicked the ball and spurs went straight into attack (bear in mind Nani is still reclining on the bye line and ManU are all over the place) 'Arry and the guys would have been metaphorically mutually masturbating each other at the "foresight" of the ref to allow the game to continue. He did not factor in the element of Gomez being clinically stupid.

[Sir David Gray]

My take on the incident is that it could have been a penalty to Man Utd for the initial foul on Nani but that wasn't given which is fair enough. After that, Tottenham should have been awarded a free kick for Nani's deliberate handball and Nani should have been booked.

It was quite clear though that Clattenburg didn't award a free kick and even if he had awarded one, why did Gomes carry the ball about 10 yards further up the pitch from where the alleged offence had been committed? He had plenty of time to kick the ball up the pitch, even before Nani had even picked himself up off the ground.

Credit must go to Nani for having the speed of thought to realise that he could take advantage and score a goal as a lot of players would probably just have allowed the goalkeeper to clear the ball up the pitch.

However, something that really was wrong was what happened in the immediate aftermath of the goal, when Clattenburg went to consult his linesman. All the Tottenham players were told to go away whilst the officials spoke to one another and, to give them their due, they all did that. However, a few moments later, we had Rio Ferdinand racing up to confront the officials and shouting at them and pressuring them to give the goal. He should have been dealt with in the same way that the Tottenham players were treated and told to get lost.

That was wrong and whilst everyone will no doubt want to debate the legitimacy of the goal, for me that was what Clattenburg really got wrong, above all else.

[SidBurns]

No, but the linesman flagged for a foul, ergo play should stop so the ref can at least consult his assistant. It was a definite hand-ball and a deliberate hand-ball - he's HOLDING the ball FFS!

If the official is missing a decision as utterly blatant as that, he's not fit to do his job and should be ousted.

The referee DOESN'T have/need to consult his assistant. He could've also played on (as he did) and book Nani when the ball next went out of play/match stopped.

IMO, Clattenburg is the BEST Premiership referee but I haven't yet seen the incident. Speaking to three referees yesterday, they all thought he made an erse of it.

[TornadoHibby]

Very true but if Gomez had thrown/kicked the ball and spurs went straight into attack (bear in mind Nani is still reclining on the bye line and ManU are all over the place) 'Arry and the guys would have been metaphorically mutually masturbating each other at the "foresight" of the ref to allow the game to continue. He did not factor in the element of Gomez being clinically stupid.

:top marks

Was interesting to see some of the Sunday "red top" headlines suggesting that this decision by the ref actually cost Spurs the 3 points too! :cool2:

:faf: :faf:

[Andy74]

I don't see what the fuss was about.

The ref and the assistant ref have both seen the handball but the ref felt that seeing as the keeper had the ball in his hands there was no need at all to award a free kick which would have been a loss of advantage to the keeper who had a ball in hand instead of a dead one a couple of yards inside the pitch.

No whistle went and the keeper took it upon himself to stick the ball on the ground ten yards away from where he felt the foul took place.

You see the ref indicating to him that he hadn't given anyting and so Nani sticks it in.

It's an error by the goalkeeper.

[archiebald]

No whistle dont stop :bitchy:

[HenryMonk]

if a ref plays advantage and team doesnt get an advantage he will stop play and award a free kick for the original offence. so why didnt he do this when spurs cleary didnt get any advantage! terrible refferring.
no way this would have happened at other end!!

spurs have been screwded the last 4 times they have played at old trafford!!

[borstalboy]

if a ref plays advantage and team doesnt get an advantage he will stop play and award a free kick for the original offence. so why didnt he do this when spurs cleary didnt get any advantage! terrible refferring.
no way this would have happened at other end!!

spurs have been screwded the last 4 times they have played at old trafford!!

Your right with that comment, although thats purely because Van der Sar would be screaming/shouting/asking the ref if it was a free-kick, he wouldn't just presume!!!

The ref played advantage, simple. I'm not actually sure how long that advantaged lasted or should last but thats the ref's opinion.
Lets face facts.....the goalie made a James Hunt of it by thinking it was a free-kick. Why should the ref stop it and allow him to then take a free-kick....

[HenryMonk]

Your right with that comment, although thats purely because Van der Sar would be screaming/shouting/asking the ref if it was a free-kick, he wouldn't just presume!!!

The ref played advantage, simple. I'm not actually sure how long that advantaged lasted or should last but thats the ref's opinion.
Lets face facts.....the goalie made a James Hunt of it by thinking it was a free-kick. Why should the ref stop it and allow him to then take a free-kick....

i do agree that gomes made a james hunt of it, but so did the ref!!

[Danderhall Hibs]

Can someone just clear up for me - what advantage did Spurs get from not getting the free-kick for the handball?

[Andy74]

Can someone just clear up for me - what advantage did Spurs get from not getting the free-kick for the handball?

They got the advantage because the goalkeeper got the ball in his hands instead of a dead ball two yards from the line.

What the keeper then does with it is his problem.

[Danderhall Hibs]

They got the advantage because the goalkeeper got the ball in his hands instead of a dead ball two yards from the line.

What the keeper then does with it is his problem.

Doesn't seem much of an advantage to me!

[TornadoHibby]

They got the advantage because the goalkeeper got the ball in his hands instead of a dead ball two yards from the line.

What the keeper then does with it is his problem.

A huge advantage for a "switched on" concentrating keeper IMO! :agree:

There was also the additional advantage available to Spurs that, had Gomez acted promptly, a number of the Man Utd players were well out of position!

[HenryMonk]

They got the advantage because the goalkeeper got the ball in his hands instead of a dead ball two yards from the line.

What the keeper then does with it is his problem.

as ive said in another post, if that had happened in open play and spurs didnt gain from advantage the ref would have blown for original foul and awarded a free kick.
how the **** can the ref ignore the linesmans comment that there was a hand ball?

[easty]

as ive said in another post, if that had happened in open play and spurs didnt gain from advantage the ref would have blown for original foul and awarded a free kick.
how the **** can the ref ignore the linesmans comment that there was a hand ball?

Because the linesman is there to assist the ref, not to tell the ref what to do.

Also, Spurs did get the advantage. Advantage doesnt mean it has to lead to a chance and it certainly isnt everlasting, they comfertably had the ball in a situation that meant the game didnt have to be stopped and he, Gomes, had plenty of time (Nani was still on his @rse 10 seconds after Gomes picked up the ball) - from when Nani handled the ball to when Nani put it in the net - to do something with it.

[Andy74]

Doesn't seem much of an advantage to me!

Eh? Being able to kick the ball from hand, or throw it, wherever and whenever you want, against basically a goal kick from a dead ball once evetyone is back and lined up.

I don't know any keeper who'd rather kick from a goal kick than have the ball in hand. He could also have held it on to it for a few seconds before walking it well out his box to kick it like they often do.

In terms of calling it back, just like a foul in normal play, if the team retains it and advantage is played, if the team then play a pass straight out the pitch the foul doesn't get called back as you've wasted it yourself.

[Andy74]

as ive said in another post, if that had happened in open play and spurs didnt gain from advantage the ref would have blown for original foul and awarded a free kick.
how the **** can the ref ignore the linesmans comment that there was a hand ball?

Eh?

The ref knew fine there was a handball and played the advantage so he didn't ignore anyone. They did gain an advantage then wasted it themselves.

The ref can't then blow for it to come back same as if it was a foul out the box, it's waved on then punted straight out the park. It's the teams' own fault for losing that advantage and it's tough.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Eh? Being able to kick the ball from hand, or throw it, wherever and whenever you want, against basically a goal kick from a dead ball once evetyone is back and lined up.

I don't know any keeper who'd rather kick from a goal kick than have the ball in hand. He could also have held it on to it for a few seconds before walking it well out his box to kick it like they often do.
In terms of calling it back, just like a foul in normal play, if the team retains it and advantage is played, if the team then play a pass straight out the pitch the foul doesn't get called back as you've wasted it yourself.

Almost every keeper puts the ball on the deck before kicking it nowadays - it's rare for the ball to be kicked from hand.

[Twa Cairpets]

Almost every keeper puts the ball on the deck before kicking it nowadays - it's rare for the ball to be kicked from hand.

I don't agree, but it is immaterial. With 6 mins to go, the best thing for Spurs to do was get on with the game quickly, with keeper in possesion to kick, throw or do what he wanted with it.

The reason it wasnt pulled back after the goal was scored was because the game had entered a different phase of play, so there was no issue of "no advantage accruing to the offended against team in the same phase of play".

No free kick given, no linesman intervention when the ball was in play (again, immaterial anyway). The referees decision was absolutely, 100% correct. You can't change the rules due to a keeper being a numpty.

Not the first time a player hasnt understood the laws.

[Andy74]

Almost every keeper puts the ball on the deck before kicking it nowadays - it's rare for the ball to be kicked from hand.

They mainly walk it out past the box and kick it while moving. Though they do have a range of choices and options like that with the ball in hand.

Far more advantageous than a dead ball in the six yard area.

[Danderhall Hibs]

They mainly walk it out past the box and kick it while moving. Though they do have a range of choices and options like that with the ball in hand.

Far more advantageous than a dead ball in the six yard area.

I agree it would be an advantage if there was a player free to quickly throw it out to. Presumably there wasn't?

[Green_one]

Play the whistle. End of discussion.

:agree:

No penalty, no free kick.

What did Gomez think he was doing?

[Andy74]

I agree it would be an advantage if there was a player free to quickly throw it out to. Presumably there wasn't?

It was an advantge anyway as he had the full range of choices. I don't see how you could ever argue that having a dead ball situation a few yards out could be more advantageos to the keeper having the ball in his hands and being able to do exactly what he wanted with it.

By your logic we'd see keepers regularly letting balls roll by them for a goal kick instead of picking it up, which of course they would only ever do to waste time. I've never seen one do it at one nil down and trying to get back into the game.

[Danderhall Hibs]

It was an advantge anyway as he had the full range of choices. I don't see how you could ever argue that having a dead ball situation a few yards out could be more advantageos to the keeper having the ball in his hands and being able to do exactly what he wanted with it.

By your logic we'd see keepers regularly letting balls roll by them for a goal kick instead of picking it up, which of course they would only ever do to waste time. I've never seen one do it at one nil down and trying to get back into the game.

The keeper picked the ball up looked for the advantage there wasn't one so placed the ball down for the free-kick. Unless the advantage he had was being allowed to launch the ball aimlessly up the park.

As much as he should've played the whistle the ref has caused this situation by not giving the free-kick.

[Crazyhorse]

The keeper picked the ball up looked for the advantage there wasn't one so placed the ball down for the free-kick. Unless the advantage he had was being allowed to launch the ball aimlessly up the park.

As much as he should've played the whistle the ref has caused this situation by not giving the free-kick.

Agreed. All the Man U fans would be arguing the reverse if it had happened at the other end and Spurs had pulled the game back to 1-1.

Not that it would have ever happened at the other end.... Clattenburg would have awarded the foul for handball.

Most dispicable thing about it was Ferdinand not being told to GTF by the officials.

[SidBurns]

Just seen the incident and from a Ref's POV (and the Laws of the Game) Clattenburg was correct.

HOWEVER

I personally would've blown for a free kick once Nani got up. He wouldn't have been marked down for that but no doubt will have been for what did happen although the FA/Ref' Association is saying they'll stand by him.

What is it with the abuse Ref's are getting the now!?! At the end of the day, ALL players and ALL managers will make MORE mistakes than ANY Referee during 90 minutes - FACT!

[PhoenixHibee]

The ref clearly wasn't confused at to the state of play because Nani ran to the ball and looked him for a few seconds and the ref clearly uses his arms to say play on.
Definately a good goal.
I suppose you could disallow for unsportsmanlike play but Nani did play by the rules.

[cocopops1875]

my take for what its worth is the calls for a cast iron free kick are wide of the mark, switch it round spurs are attacking a wee chipped through ball gets played rio sticks a hand out touches the ball that still falls to the forward , does the ref stop play ? of course he does not advantage is played goal scored and rio gets booked. So my point is keeper is a plank and ref got it bang on :wink:

[Cropley10]

Agreed. All the Man U fans would be arguing the reverse if it had happened at the other end and Spurs had pulled the game back to 1-1.

Not that it would have ever happened at the other end.... Clattenburg would have awarded the foul for handball.

Most dispicable thing about it was Ferdinand not being told to GTF by the officials.

:agree: - the whole thing would be a lot easier to understand if Rio had been told GTF and the ref had waited until he disappeared.

The fact that the line-o seems to be saying hang on there was a handball is lost by Ferdinand just stands there shouting "you give it" - "you've got to give it", makes it look like he's been influenced by the player, even if he wasn't that's what it looks like.

You're taught to play to the whistle, so MC was right, but he didn't see Nani handle the ball... Farcical.

[cocopops1875]

:agree: - the whole thing would be a lot easier to understand if Rio had been told GTF and the ref had waited until he disappeared.

The fact that the line-o seems to be saying hang on there was a handball is lost by Ferdinand just stands there shouting "you give it" - "you've got to give it", makes it look like he's been influenced by the player, even if he wasn't that's what it looks like.

You're taught to play to the whistle, so MC was right, but he didn't see Nani handle the ball... Farcical.

but why is handling the ball such a sticking point ? hand ball is not an instant stoppage

[cocopops1875]

Holding it in both hands for a while is surely deliberate? Unless you've had a stroke or something.. I don't believe that's a viable excuse in any case.I thought deliberate hand ball was a red card?

see my post a few up and tell me the difference? same offence but advantage given

[Twa Cairpets]

Holding it in both hands for a while is surely deliberate? Unless you've had a stroke or something.. I don't believe that's a viable excuse in any case.I thought deliberate hand ball was a red card?

And herein lies the problem...

You don't understand the laws of the game. A handball is only a sending off offence if it denies a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Handball in itself is not even a cautionable offence - cautions given out for "hand-ball" are for unsporting behaviour. And there isnt such a thing as "deliberate" hand ball. the law for the awarding of a free-kick relates to the ball being played with the hand or for the ball hitting the arm or hand when it is in an "unnatrual position".

And in all cases, the referee can play advantage, as he quite rightly did in this case.

[Danderhall Hibs]

And in all cases, the referee can play advantage, as he quite rightly did in this case.

But there was no advantage to play!

[Stewboy]

Nani handled the ball in the 6 yard box, so why then did gomez put the ball down outside the 6 yard box closer to the edge of the 18 yard line

Surely blatant cheating by gomez to steal yards if he thought it was a free kick.

Petty i know but cheating is cheating

[Danderhall Hibs]

Nani handled the ball in the 6 yard box, so why then did gomez put the ball down outside the 6 yard box closer to the edge of the 18 yard line

Surely blatant cheating by gomez to steal yards if he thought it was a free kick.

Petty i know but cheating is cheating

Nani was still moping about where the free-kick should've been so he couldn't place it on the exact spot. Anyway they're all cheats - every single one of them steals yards at throw-ins every week. Hang the lot of them!

[snooky]

The ref missed or didn't give the free kick for the hand ball, fair enough.

But.

Gomes was in full control of the ball, so maybe the ref saw fit to play on as Spurs had the ball, not much difference from Gomes punting the ball up field to a free kick.

Gomes then dropped the ball and Nani took advantage.

Deliberate handball? Is that not a bookable offence? If so, ref should have stopped the game and booked Nani.

Then again maybe he used his best judgement and tried to keep the game flowing (like everybody wants).

Verdict - Ref took option 2 therefore it's a goalkeeping booboo, IMO.

[Danderhall Hibs]

What if a player picks the ball up and runs up the pitch,drops the ball on the opposition goal line and taps it in, the ref doesn't give a foul cos he doesn't see it... Is it a goal?

Who does the player play for? If Man Utd, Celtic or Rangers - give the goal. If against any of these 3 disallow the goal.

Don't worry about getting it wrong though - the head of referees will do an interview with TV stating that you were correct in your decision and if you did make a mistake it was an honest one - we're all human aren't we?

[Twa Cairpets]

But there was no advantage to play!

At the risk of repeating whats been said:

Most referees will try to keep a game flowing, and not blow for every offence. If there was no immediate advantage for the keeper to release it quickly, then he could have waited till he was set and played it from hand, or the ground. The choice was his.

There was no whistle blown, there was no free-kick awarded, there was no automatic requirement for a free-kick to be given, and in every sensible view of the situation the opportunity for advantage was given to Spurs by doing what Clattenburg did.

The fact that the keeper made a pigs ear of it is neither here nor there. The law requires for an "advantage" to be pulled back only if no advantage accrues in the same phase of play. The keeper throwing the ball onto the ground was clearly a different phse of play.

Clattenburg can be criticised for not telling Ferdinand to get tae, and the linesman can be criticised for flagging after the goal, but that is immaterial to the goals award because within the laws he was absolutely 100% spot on. Anyone who says "well in the laws he was right but was it shouldny have stood" is, frankly, talking bollox. Thats like asking the referee to take pity on a mistake made by a player, and that way disaster lies.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Deliberate handball? Is that not a bookable offence? If so, ref should have stopped the game and booked Nani.

Then again maybe he used his best judgement and tried to keep the game flowing (like everybody wants).

Verdict - Ref took option 2 therefore it's a goalkeeping booboo, IMO.

The game wasn't flowing - the ball was in the keepers hands. Advantage wasn't taken/available so it should've been a free-kick to Spurs.

[Danderhall Hibs]

At the risk of repeating whats been said:

Most referees will try to keep a game flowing, and not blow for every offence. If there was no immediate advantage for the keeper to release it quickly, then he could have waited till he was set and played it from hand, or the ground. The choice was his.

There was no whistle blown, there was no free-kick awarded, there was no automatic requirement for a free-kick to be given, and in every sensible view of the situation the opportunity for advantage was given to Spurs by doing what Clattenburg did.

The fact that the keeper made a pigs ear of it is neither here nor there. The law requires for an "advantage" to be pulled back only if no advantage accrues in the same phase of play. The keeper throwing the ball onto the ground was clearly a different phse of play.

Clattenburg can be criticised for not telling Ferdinand to get tae, and the linesman can be criticised for flagging after the goal, but that is immaterial to the goals award because within the laws he was absolutely 100% spot on. Anyone who says "well in the laws he was right but was it shouldny have stood" is, frankly, talking bollox. Thats like asking the referee to take pity on a mistake made by a player, and that way disaster lies.

I think what gets to me more than anything is the referees union - the one where all your fellow refs come out and defend you when you make an arse of something.

[Twa Cairpets]

The game wasn't flowing - the ball was in the keepers hands. Advantage wasn't taken/available so it should've been a free-kick to Spurs.

No. It. Shouldnt. Seriously, this is absolutely a no-brainer. the laws are absolutely clear.


What if a player picks the ball up and runs up the pitch,drops the ball on the opposition goal line and taps it in, the ref doesn't give a foul cos he doesn't see it... Is it a goal?
Theoretically, yes, but its a very silly point so it doesnt mean anything.

What is more interesting is the fact that a goal can be scored off an arm or hand if there was no movement to the ball or the hand wasnt in an unnatural position. For example, if a defender bangs the ball against a striker facing the wrong way or maybe running back up the pitch, and it hits his arm and goes in, thats a goal. The act of a ball hitting an arm or hand is not a free-kick in itself, it depends on context.

Think of the first game of the season when Hibs scored (Hanlon I think) against Motherwell. that hit his arm before it went in, but his arm was where it should have been and so it was a valid goal

[Twa Cairpets]

I think what gets to me more than anything is the referees union - the one where all your fellow refs come out and defend you when you make an arse of something.

I think what gets to me more than anything is fans and pundits basing there opinion on ignorance - when they make an arse of something through not understanding the laws of the game.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think what gets to me more than anything is fans and pundits basing there opinion on ignorance - when they make an arse of something through not understanding the laws of the game.

I'm willing to admit I didn't know players were allowed to sit on the ground and deliberately handle the ball - I don't know why more folk don't do it TBH!

However as for the advantage rule I beg to differ on how it works - I think it's piss poorly managed at the best of times by refs.

I never disputed that Gomes should've held on to the ball until Nani was out the way and that.

[Andy74]

I'm willing to admit I didn't know players were allowed to sit on the ground and deliberately handle the ball - I don't know why more folk don't do it TBH!

However as for the advantage rule I beg to differ on how it works - I think it's piss poorly managed at the best of times by refs.

I never disputed that Gomes should've held on to the ball until Nani was out the way and that.

Are you on the wind up? You can't actually not be getting it to this extent. Surely.

[Twa Cairpets]

You sound as though you're a rules specialist but your point of ... A deliberate handball not being an automatic foul is interesting.I'm sure though that a ref would generally give a foul/card to someone who deliberately caught the ball for no apparent reason during a passage of play..I'm pretty confident they wouldn't get away with the excuse in their report...Well the player caught the ball in both hands,ran about with it for a while, didn't gain an advantage so I just let it go...:bitchy:

I do know the laws of the game if thats what you mean.

As for your other point, its all down to context and circumstances. Nanis handling of the ball was blatant, and not done to gain any advantage. It didnt delay play, it didnt create an opportunity for his team, and to stop the game to award a free kick and book him would have been disadvantageous to Spurs as it would have held up play. What you describe at the end of your post didnt happen, so therefore is pointless to comment on.

[Kaiser1962]

Now imagine if this had gone to a panel reviewing TV evidence during the game. We'd still be there....

[SidBurns]

I think what gets to me more than anything is the referees union - the one where all your fellow refs come out and defend you when you make an arse of something.

Why!?! Cause Managers never stick up for their players right enough!?! Ref's get more stick than anyone at matches, I think they deserve some back-up at times!!!

[SidBurns]

I do know the laws of the game if thats what you mean.

As for your other point, its all down to context and circumstances. Nanis handling of the ball was blatant, and not done to gain any advantage. It didnt delay play, it didnt create an opportunity for his team, and to stop the game to award a free kick and book him would have been disadvantageous to Spurs as it would have held up play. What you describe at the end of your post didnt happen, so therefore is pointless to comment on.

As per a previous post of mine the Ref could've booked Nani the next time the ball went out of play or play itself stopped. Has anyone actually thought that mibbe the Ref didn't see the handball? Look at his position, could he have seen it?

[Hibbyradge]

It doesn't clear anything up, but...From the Laws of the Game;

Advantage

The referee may play advantage whenever an infringement or offence occurs.
The referee should consider the following circumstances in deciding whether to
apply the advantage or stop play:

• the severity of the offence: if the infringement warrants an expulsion, the
referee must stop play and send off the player unless there is a subsequent
opportunity to score a goal

• the position where the offence was committed: the closer to the
opponent’s goal, the more effective it can be

• the chances of an immediate, promising attack

• the atmosphere of the match

The decision to penalise the original offence must be taken within a few
seconds.

If the offence warrants a caution, it must be issued at the next stoppage.
However, unless there is a clear advantage, it is recommended that the referee
stops play and cautions the player immediately.

If the caution is NOT issued at the next stoppage, it cannot be shown later.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Why!?! Cause Managers never stick up for their players right enough!?! Ref's get more stick than anyone at matches, I think they deserve some back-up at times!!!

I don't mind folk being defended, it’s the defence of the indefensible that annoys me.

That and the condescending attitude that they give off – it’s even evident on this thread.