The tragic story of Hollie Greig

[hibs0666]

I've only just found out about this story and, if even only half-true, it is to Scotland's eternal shame.

Hollie Greig (http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/4403-the-deeply-upsetting-story-of-hollie-greig)

[Betty Boop]

I've only just found out about this story and, if even only half-true, it is to Scotland's eternal shame.

Hollie Greig (http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/4403-the-deeply-upsetting-story-of-hollie-greig)

That is awful.

[IndieHibby]

Just read a bit around this story. There really ought to be an enquiry by an another police force, under the promise of a full and open disclosure by an elected politician or other non-vested interest.

But just to state, I can only see one side of the story at the moment. There doesn't seem to be much other than the statements of Hollie and her mother, plus some conjecture.

Like you say, if true, it is a huge and deeply destructive case for the legal and political establishment in Scotland.

[Betty Boop]

Just read a bit around this story. There really ought to be an enquiry by an another police force, under the promise of a full and open disclosure by an elected politician or other non-vested interest.

But just to state, I can only see one side of the story at the moment. There doesn't seem to be much other than the statements of Hollie and her mother, plus some conjecture.

Like you say, if true, it is a huge and deeply destructive case for the legal and political establishment in Scotland.

Strange to hand out criminal injury compensation, if there is no case to answer.

[lyonhibs]

I've only just found out about this story and, if even only half-true, it is to Scotland's eternal shame.

Hollie Greig (http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/4403-the-deeply-upsetting-story-of-hollie-greig)

Jesus ****ing Christ that is awful.

Doubtless I'm going to open up a horrendous can of worms here, but I can see no argument for overwhemingly convicted (meaning concrete evidence, no doubt about it, hell a fair few paedophiles have confessed) (note: convicted, not accused or suspected) paedophiles to continue to draw air.

I'm pretty liberal on most other counts - extenuating circumstances, miscarriages of justice etc - but convicted paedohpiles???

Kill them all, and encarcerate those who protect them.

[Darth Hibbie]

Strange to hand out criminal injury compensation, if there is no case to answer.

There is no need for a conviction for Criminal Injuries to be paid out. It is a separate organisation from the courts. Criminal Injuries is paid out to victims of serious crimes regardless of where anybody is charged with the crime.

More info here if you want it.

http://www.cica.gov.uk/

Sorry for the slight :hijack:

[hibs0666]

There is no need for a conviction for Criminal Injuries to be paid out. It is a separate organisation from the courts. Criminal Injuries is paid out to victims of serious crimes regardless of where anybody is charged with the crime.

More info here if you want it.

http://www.cica.gov.uk/

Sorry for the slight :hijack:

The fact that it is acknowledged that a serious crime has indeed taken place just makes the whole thing even worse.

Someone had done a smashing job keeping this story low-profile when it should be anything but.

[Steve-O]

Think you are all rather quick to believe this entire story without knowing any of the facts, other than what that article says? :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

I've only just found out about this story and, if even only half-true, it is to Scotland's eternal shame.

Hollie Greig (http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/4403-the-deeply-upsetting-story-of-hollie-greig)

Couple of things wrong in that story, both of which make me suspicious of its overall veracity:

(1) Wouldn't Robert Greig be Anne Greig's brother-in-law, rather than brother?

(2) Why would going to Portugal have anything to do with Madeleine McCann? Is Portugal just a single house, rather than an entire country?

As you say, though, even if only half of it's true, shameful.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Think you are all rather quick to believe this entire story without knowing any of the facts, other than what that article says? :confused:

I hear what you are saying, there is no real balance to the story. The other side of it is, given the severity of the allegations, you would expect those named to defend themselves in the courts.

This story doesn't surprise me. Scotland is a small country and a lot of people at the top are connected in one way or another. I am able to believe the story is true.

[Future17]

Couple of things wrong in that story, both of which make me suspicious of its overall veracity:

(1) Wouldn't Robert Greig be Anne Greig's brother-in-law, rather than brother?

(2) Why would going to Portugal have anything to do with Madeleine McCann? Is Portugal just a single house, rather than an entire country?

As you say, though, even if only half of it's true, shameful.

I agree. Although I'm not judging the case, that article is very poor.

In relation to your point (1), I think Greig is Hollie's mum's maiden name and Mackie is the married name. If it wasn't then the son would be called Greg Greig and, although that wouldn't be the strangest thing about him, it would definitely be a tad weird.

Difficult, if not impossible, to form an informed opinion based on the information available, but I work for an organisation which gives me experience of people having made totally unfounded and potentially damaging allegations.

In situations like this, it's important to remember that, if every allegation made against those in positions of power was to be fully publicised, there would be no room for anything else on the news, lying would become an important weapon for those that the police and the legal system are designed to control and society would lose confidence in the law, or our ability as a nation to administer it.

Also, as unfortunate a fact as it is, when Operations are instigated by police forces on a grand scale to catch any large group, be it paedophiles, drug dealers or racketeers of any description, there is an acknowledgement at the outset that a long-term view is taken in order to maximise the overall success. There is a precedent for police seeming not to act on individual allegations to lull offenders into believing they are safe, when in reality they are using the info they have to see who else the individuals will incriminate.

[lapsedhibee]

In relation to your point (1), I think Greig is Hollie's mum's maiden name and Mackie is the married name. If it wasn't then the son would be called Greg Greig and, although that wouldn't be the strangest thing about him, it would definitely be a tad weird.
Quite right. I guess while reading I would have been subconsciously looking for Greg to be described as Hollie's step-brother rather than brother. Are "step-" labels no longer used because considered socially divisive? :dunno:

[Future17]

Quite right. I guess while reading I would have been subconsciously looking for Greg to be described as Hollie's step-brother rather than brother. Are "step-" labels no longer used because considered socially divisive? :dunno:

I may have read it wrong but I don't think it is her step-brother - I think it is her brother. My thinking was that the family name was Mackie, but when the allegations began and the family divided, Hollie and her mother reverted to the mother's maiden name of Greig.

To be fair, the confusion is probably mainly due to the way the article is written. The author can't even maintain a consistent spelling of Greig.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I may have read it wrong but I don't think it is her step-brother - I think it is her brother. My thinking was that the family name was Mackie, but when the allegations began and the family divided, Hollie and her mother reverted to the mother's maiden name of Greig.

To be fair, the confusion is probably mainly due to the way the article is written. The author can't even maintain a consistent spelling of Greig.

If the article is so poor, I'm surprised those named don't sue. I know I would, unless he is telling the truth.

[Future17]

If the article is so poor, I'm surprised those named don't sue. I know I would, unless he is telling the truth.

Brings me back to my earlier points though:


In situations like this, it's important to remember that, if every allegation made against those in positions of power was to be fully publicised, there would be no room for anything else on the news, lying would become an important weapon for those that the police and the legal system are designed to control and society would lose confidence in the law, or our ability as a nation to administer it.

Not wanting to give people making false allegations, not that I am saying these are false, the publicity they are likely to be seeking, does not make you guilty.

However, the article being poorly written and the article being true are not mutually exclusive. The allegations may well be true, but the tone and style don't lend credibility in my opinion.

[Wembley67]

A follow up interview conducted by a relation

http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/5290-member-of-hollies-army-targets-malcolm-chisholm-smp

[lapsedhibee]

I may have read it wrong but I don't think it is her step-brother - I think it is her brother. My thinking was that the family name was Mackie, but when the allegations began and the family divided, Hollie and her mother reverted to the mother's maiden name of Greig.

Even the relative's not sure if it's bro or step-bro:
Mark – “Her husband and her son or her husbands son…I am not sure.”

[Future17]

A follow up interview conducted by a relation

http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/5290-member-of-hollies-army-targets-malcolm-chisholm-smp

I've now had a chance to research the "journalist" responsible for the articles cited and the publication itself. Unfortunately, neither would lend any credibility whatsoever to any argument about anything, which is a shame and runs the risk of discrediting what could be a valid cause.

Having said that, a simple web search does provide some more interesting information on the subject, from a variety of sources, although none of which I know enough about to tell if they're any better than the links provided.

[Wembley67]

I just found it interesting that he told me all about this months before it went to press and the work he has done has pulled this back in to the public eye.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Brings me back to my earlier points though:

Not wanting to give people making false allegations, not that I am saying these are false, the publicity they are likely to be seeking, does not make you guilty.

However, the article being poorly written and the article being true are not mutually exclusive. The allegations may well be true, but the tone and style don't lend credibility in my opinion.

It's just that if someone wrote that about me, I'd sue if it wasn't true. I'm not saying it is true - there's every chance this guy is a fantasist.

[Betty Boop]

It's just that if someone wrote that about me, I'd sue if it wasn't true. I'm not saying it is true - there's every chance this guy is a fantasist.

I found this on Google along with numerous other articles about this case, it makes interesting reading. :rolleyes:

http://paulmalpas.com/uncategorized/paedophilia/

[Phil D. Rolls]

I found this on Google along with numerous other articles about this case, it makes interesting reading. :rolleyes:

http://paulmalpas.com/uncategorized/paedophilia/

No smoke without fire? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

I found this on Google along with numerous other articles about this case, it makes interesting reading. :rolleyes:

http://paulmalpas.com/uncategorized/paedophilia/

Slight problem with that article. It recommends that everyone spend a day googling the Hollie Greig story. And points out some names that "keep cropping up". Well they bloody would wouldn't they? :grr:

What is it that we're supposed to conclude about George Robertson? That he's a paedophile? :dunno:

Hollie Greig, Dunblane, Portugal, Masons - only need to throw in NASA and the so-called Moon Landings and that's a full set, innit?

Not saying these allegations are untrue, mind, but this article doesn't even manage to spell Down's Syndrome correctly. Isn't there something somewhere that's better written?

[hibs0666]

Slight problem with that article. It recommends that everyone spend a day googling the Hollie Greig story. And points out some names that "keep cropping up". Well they bloody would wouldn't they? :grr:

What is it that we're supposed to conclude about George Robertson? That he's a paedophile? :dunno:

Hollie Greig, Dunblane, Portugal, Masons - only need to throw in NASA and the so-called Moon Landings and that's a full set, innit?

Not saying these allegations are untrue, mind, but this article doesn't even manage to spell Down's Syndrome correctly. Isn't there something somewhere that's better written?

Rather than turn ourselves into detectives, or some sort of sub-editors, let's boil things down to the very basic facts.

Fact 1) a disabled girl has suffered horrendous systematic attacks

Fact 2) the victim is considered a credible witness

Fact 3) despite the evidence provided by the victim, no-one has been been charged in connection with these attacks.

These facts alone should be of major concern to the Scottish justice system. If anything else in these allegations is true then the justice system has some very serious questions indeed to answer.

[Future17]

It's just that if someone wrote that about me, I'd sue if it wasn't true. I'm not saying it is true - there's every chance this guy is a fantasist.

As would I most likely, but a lot of the people who attract the most criticism attract it because they are high profile.

I don't know what you do for a living, but imagine (if you are not) that you are a high profile celebrity/politician/law-maker etc. and you hear that a sub-standard journalist has libeled you on a conspiracy-theorist website. You know from experience that if you devoted the time to searching the web, reading certain publications etc. you would find your name libeled time-after-time in connection with a wide-variety of allegations.

So, you pay your high-priced lawyer to track these people down.

You spend a fortune taking them to court.

A verdict is returned in your favour.

You win damages of an amount which the defender can't afford to pay, so you, or your nominated charity, never sees a penny from them.

You also receive an apology, which is printed in the publication which is only read by a demographic of people who have no faith in the legal system anyway so won't believe it.

On top of that, you have presented the defender with an incredible opportunity to generate publicity for themselves and their publication for months in the run-up to the court date.

Also, the defender can say whatever they like about you in court without fear of further action.

What would you have achieved and would it be worth it?


No smoke without fire? :dunno:

Which is exactly what the people who write these stories are hoping you will think.


Rather than turn ourselves into detectives, or some sort of sub-editors, let's boil things down to the very basic facts.

Fact 1) a disabled girl has suffered horrendous systematic attacks

Fact 2) the victim is considered a credible witness

Fact 3) despite the evidence provided by the victim, no-one has been been charged in connection with these attacks.

These facts alone should be of major concern to the Scottish justice system. If anything else in these allegations is true then the justice system has some very serious questions indeed to answer.

It's difficult to know if the stated facts are actually facts without turning ourselves into detectives/investigators - how else do you establish if something is a fact?

It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be some official comment on the subject which might bring some clarity but, depending on the circumstances, that might be for the best.

[Phil D. Rolls]

As would I most likely, but a lot of the people who attract the most criticism attract it because they are high profile.

I don't know what you do for a living, but imagine (if you are not) that you are a high profile celebrity/politician/law-maker etc. and you hear that a sub-standard journalist has libeled you on a conspiracy-theorist website. You know from experience that if you devoted the time to searching the web, reading certain publications etc. you would find your name libeled time-after-time in connection with a wide-variety of allegations.

So, you pay your high-priced lawyer to track these people down.

You spend a fortune taking them to court.

A verdict is returned in your favour.

You win damages of an amount which the defender can't afford to pay, so you, or your nominated charity, never sees a penny from them.

You also receive an apology, which is printed in the publication which is only read by a demographic of people who have no faith in the legal system anyway so won't believe it.

On top of that, you have presented the defender with an incredible opportunity to generate publicity for themselves and their publication for months in the run-up to the court date.

Also, the defender can say whatever they like about you in court without fear of further action.

What would you have achieved and would it be worth it?



Which is exactly what the people who write these stories are hoping you will think.



It's difficult to know if the stated facts are actually facts without turning ourselves into detectives/investigators - how else do you establish if something is a fact?

It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be some official comment on the subject which might bring some clarity but, depending on the circumstances, that might be for the best.

Fair points. Probably better to dismiss the allegations as the ramblings of a nut case, than draw more attention to yourself by going to court and suing someone. I suppose people in that position often attract false allegations.

[Future17]

Fair points. Probably better to dismiss the allegations as the ramblings of a nut case, than draw more attention to yourself by going to court and suing someone. I suppose people in that position often attract false allegations.

:agree:

Of course the difficulty arises when, in situations like this, people who have genuinely committed a crime have preyed on a member of society's most vulnerable groups for that exact reason - so it's more difficult for the victim(s) to find enough people who will listen and take them seriously.

Without access to more information on this particular story, I have no idea what the truth is. The key for me is why it hasn't been reported on a wider scale and by more credible sources. Either:

a) There isn't enough evidence or there are genuine concerns over the credibility of the evidence that does exist, or:

b) The "reputable" media that would normally report this kind of thing are being prevented from doing so by some aspect of the legal system.

Obviously if it's "b" that could be a concern for all of us.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:

Of course the difficulty arises when, in situations like this, people who have genuinely committed a crime have preyed on a member of society's most vulnerable groups for that exact reason - so it's more difficult for the victim(s) to find enough people who will listen and take them seriously.

Without access to more information on this particular story, I have no idea what the truth is. The key for me is why it hasn't been reported on a wider scale and by more credible sources. Either:

a) There isn't enough evidence or there are genuine concerns over the credibility of the evidence that does exist, or:

b) The "reputable" media that would normally report this kind of thing are being prevented from doing so by some aspect of the legal system.

Obviously if it's "b" that could be a concern for all of us.

Accounts of the disappearance of Moira Anderson in the 50s suggest that there is a high level paedophile ring in Scotland. The perpetrator was clearly identified but police seemed to be reluctant to act. There is very little reported on this case in the media.

[Betty Boop]

Accounts of the disappearance of Moira Anderson in the 50s suggest that there is a high level paedophile ring in Scotland. The perpetrator was clearly identified but police seemed to be reluctant to act. There is very little reported on this case in the media.

There was also a case in Belgium a few years back concerning members of the establishment, who were allegedly part of a ring which was covered up. This came to light in the case of Dutroux (sp) who was convicted of raping and murdering four girls IIRC. I am sure his wife was also involved.

[Steve-O]

Rather than turn ourselves into detectives, or some sort of sub-editors, let's boil things down to the very basic facts.

Fact 1) a disabled girl has suffered horrendous systematic attacks

Fact 2) the victim is considered a credible witness

Fact 3) despite the evidence provided by the victim, no-one has been been charged in connection with these attacks.

These facts alone should be of major concern to the Scottish justice system. If anything else in these allegations is true then the justice system has some very serious questions indeed to answer.

Not entirely sure any of those 3 facts are actual facts though?

[RyeSloan]

While the article is a terrible tale I just can't help but think that if all of these crimes and cover up's were indeed true that it would have came to the attention of the main stream media already.

The fact that the article is poorly written and insinuates a connection to Madeline McCann really makes it look suspicious.

Quite why a story like this would be fabricated I don't know and if there is even a hint of some of it being accurate then further action should be taken but until then I will keep my shock and indignation in check.

[Betty Boop]

I found this article which contains cover of the case on a Manchester online radio station, it also has an interview with Anne Greig and Robert Green.

http://wideshut.co.uk/how-you-can-help-the-hollie-greig-pedophile-case/

[lapsedhibee]

I found this article which contains cover of the case on a Manchester online radio station, it also has an interview with Anne Greig and Robert Green.

http://wideshut.co.uk/how-you-can-help-the-hollie-greig-pedophile-case/

The "article" here is just an incoherent rant, but the radio interviews, though 2hrs long, are interesting.

David Icke's description of Scotland, and particularly Grampian region, as a world centre for paedophilia was interesting. And the English radio station's presentation of Scotland as a hotbed of Satanic practices reminded me of the Orkney child abuse case not so long ago - ie "you wouldn't believe the things that pagans and heathens who live further north than us do".

Only half way through listening to the interviews, but already I would like to see some actual evidence rather than just hear Anne Greig say that, you know, it exists. Is the autopsy report on the murdered uncle available anywhere on the web?

[Phil D. Rolls]

The "article" here is just an incoherent rant, but the radio interviews, though 2hrs long, are interesting.

David Icke's description of Scotland, and particularly Grampian region, as a world centre for paedophilia was interesting. And the English radio station's presentation of Scotland as a hotbed of Satanic practices reminded me of the Orkney child abuse case not so long ago - ie "you wouldn't believe the things that pagans and heathens who live further north than us do".

Only half way through listening to the interviews, but already I would like to see some actual evidence rather than just hear Anne Greig say that, you know, it exists. Is the autopsy report on the murdered uncle available anywhere on the web?

Eh, was it not some mad social workers from the Lowlands who really went to town on the Orkney business though

[lapsedhibee]

Eh, was it not some mad social workers from the Lowlands who really went to town on the Orkney business though

Orkney being the far and barbaric north as far as lowlanders are concerned; Scotland being the far and barbaric north as far as Mancunians are concerned.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Orkney being the far and barbaric north as far as lowlanders are concerned; Scotland being the far and barbaric north as far as Mancunians are concerned.

My head hurts. :boo hoo:

[lapsedhibee]

My head hurts. :boo hoo:

Are you saying that Grampian polis have been hitting you, for daring to speak out on this thread? :dunno:

Just saying, some of the speakers on that Manchester radio prog were being very uncomplimentary about Scotland (it's not a democracy, it's a wee backward fiefdom presided over by Levy & McRae; world-renowned as being corrupt, etc, etc), is all.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Are you saying that Grampian polis have been hitting you, for daring to speak out on this thread? :dunno:

Just saying, some of the speakers on that Manchester radio prog were being very uncomplimentary about Scotland (it's not a democracy, it's a wee backward fiefdom presided over by Levy & McRae; world-renowned as being corrupt, etc, etc), is all.

I can only assume that these people were talking from experience. At least we're world renowned though, we have an International presence that people from Manchester can only fantasise about.

[Darth Hibbie]

Rather than turn ourselves into detectives, or some sort of sub-editors, let's boil things down to the very basic facts.

Fact 1) a disabled girl has suffered horrendous systematic attacks

Fact 2) the victim is considered a credible witness

Fact 3) despite the evidence provided by the victim, no-one has been been charged in connection with these attacks.

These facts alone should be of major concern to the Scottish justice system. If anything else in these allegations is true then the justice system has some very serious questions indeed to answer.

From the brief read through I have had there does not seem to be any corroboratory evidence which would required in order for somebody to be charged.

I'm not saying that the initial allegations are not true but it may just be the case that there is not enough evidence to charge somebody. Historically reported abuse is very difficult to prove without a number of people coming forward because of the lack of forensic evidence.

[--------]

Eh, was it not some mad social workers from the Lowlands who really went to town on the Orkney business though

IIRC one of the Orkney team, Liz McLean, had attended some sort of teach-in in Aberdeen regarding "Satanic ritual child abuse". She got all fired up about it and when she got back to Orkney she encouraged the rest of the department including the director, Paul Lee, to get involved.

Lee had previous in Sutherland Social Services as being excessively "pro-active" in his approach to child care, and had the reputation of being very stubborn once he had decided on a course of action.

McLean was absolutely determined to find a case of Satanic Child Abuse in Orkney. She also had previous, being involved in the Rochdale case a year previously. (The children involved there have since sued for compensation and an apology.) She subjected the children to manipulative and bullying interrpgation techniques, and accused the local minister, Morris Mackenzie, mainly on the ground that he had "a black cloak" in his vestry. (Shucks, milud, I have a black cloak in my vestry - just about every minister in the C of S has too. It's part of our pulpit robes. Most of us don't wear it very often, and it trips you up and makes you look really really silly.)

What was really scary about the business was that a number of my own elders were absolutely adamant that if Paul Lee was convinced about the existence of abuse, the allegations must be true. These people were involved in education, in the high school and in evening work with teenagers and children.

On one occasion I suggested to two of them that the possession of a black cloak (see above) wasn't exactly damning evidence against a clergyman and was told first, that there was a loot more concrete evidence than that (there actually wasn't); second, that a lot of the islanders thought that the McKenzies were "queer fish" and "obviously up to something". Then they asked me why I was defending him....

McLean's interrogation techniques were forcing the children to make the accusations McLean wanted them to make - if only to get HER to leave them alone. It was a witch-hunt, and a very nasty one, IMO.

The Rochdale and Orkney cases, IMO, seriously damaged the investigation of child abuse cases. Children suffer horrendous abuse, more frequently than most of us would like to think, but the shaky foundations of the Rochdale and Orkney investigations, and the hysteria whipped up by allegedly professional social workers didn't help anyone.

Twenty years on, it's now absolutely clear that some (many?) of my professional colleagues have been scandalously abusing their position of trust to inflict dreadful suffering on children in their care, and one reason they've got away with it is the discrediting of the idea of child abuse practised within a religious or satanic setting after the cases Liz McLean was involved in.

"Satanic abuse" does happen - think of the Lewis case a few years after Orkney - but investigators have to be very careful how they collect and collate evidence. I'm not really convinced of a huge conspiracy of police, lawyers, social workers and masons all working to protect high-level paedophiles.

But I guess there may well be an old pals' act that works in the legal system to protect those and such as those. :rolleyes:

[Phil D. Rolls]

"Satanic abuse" does happen - think of the Lewis case a few years after Orkney - but investigators have to be very careful how they collect and collate evidence. I'm not really convinced of a huge conspiracy of police, lawyers, social workers and masons all working to protect high-level paedophiles.

But I guess there may well be an old pals' act that works in the legal system to protect those and such as those. :rolleyes:

Doddie, you must be familiar with the Moira Anderson case, as it was so close to where you live. Sandra Brown accused her father, Alex Gartshore (?) of having abducted and murdered this girl.

She reported hitting all sorts of barriers in her way when she asked the Police to investigate further. Among other things she questioned was why her father was on bail from a sexual assault charge against teenage girls when the crime was committed.

Her conclusion was that her father knew the names of other paedophiles and some were in the "Establishment". Some 50 years later, she told the police where they would find Moira's body, she was informed that they wouldn't search the area.

There are other cases that have me scratching my head, such as the death of Rory Blackhall in Livingston around 5 years ago. His "killer" was a man on bail for a sexual assault. Unfortunately, the culprit was never taken to trial as he took his own life before he could be arrested.

I always wondered why it took the police so long to identify the man as a suspect, given that he was already known to them. I also found it strange that he only committed suicide once he knew they were coming to get him.

I'm not saying these two cases are evidence of a Scotland wide conspiracy, and I am certainly not brave enough to go looking for evidence. What I am saying is that they raise the distinct possibility.

Is Scotland any worse than other countries at bringing these people to justice? I would suspect not, it's just that in a wee place a stink has a lot less space to disperse.

[--------]

Doddie, you must be familiar with the Moira Anderson case, as it was so close to where you live. Sandra Brown accused her father, Alex Gartshore (?) of having abducted and murdered this girl.

She reported hitting all sorts of barriers in her way when she asked the Police to investigate further. Among other things she questioned was why her father was on bail from a sexual assault charge against teenage girls when the crime was committed.

Her conclusion was that her father knew the names of other paedophiles and some were in the "Establishment". Some 50 years later, she told the police where they would find Moira's body, she was informed that they wouldn't search the area.

There are other cases that have me scratching my head, such as the death of Rory Blackhall in Livingston around 5 years ago. His "killer" was a man on bail for a sexual assault. Unfortunately, the culprit was never taken to trial as he took his own life before he could be arrested.

I always wondered why it took the police so long to identify the man as a suspect, given that he was already known to them. I also found it strange that he only committed suicide once he knew they were coming to get him.

I'm not saying these two cases are evidence of a Scotland wide conspiracy, and I am certainly not brave enough to go looking for evidence. What I am saying is that they raise the distinct possibility.

Is Scotland any worse than other countries at bringing these people to justice? I would suspect not, it's just that in a wee place a stink has a lot less space to disperse.


Now you're beginning to worry me, FR.

Paedophiles know other paedophiles, I'm sure. And they protect one another, I'm also sure.


So when does an old pals' network become a conspiracy?

And are the only paedophiles brought to justice ones that live outside the loop - NOT part of the network? :cool2:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Now you're beginning to worry me, FR.

Paedophiles know other paedophiles, I'm sure. And they protect one another, I'm also sure.


So when does an old pals' network become a conspiracy?

And are the only paedophiles brought to justice ones that live outside the loop - NOT part of the network? :cool2:

I believe these guys have been refining their network for centuries. In the old days kids were "stolen by the gypsies" or "ran away to join the circus", or were sold to the "white slave trade". Of course, the more likely explanation was that it was somebody in the locality had abducted the child.

I am guessing that, like drugs, and other forms of criminality, there are worlds within worlds. Besides, it would take a very brave police officer to prosecute a high standing person, with a very strong chance that the trial would collapse due to witness intimidation.

I would like to stress this is pure speculation on my part. I have never really wanted to look into this sort of thing in any depth. I just think it would be naive to see these people as lone predators rather than as being part of a network.

It would be equally naive to think that paedophiles are associated with one social class, and that in the world of grace and favour; of nods and winks, that some people may prefer to turn a blind eye to it in exchange for favour.

It's worth checking this out: Sandra Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Brown_%28campaigner%29). I am not saying that everything she says is right, but difficult questions are raised.

[Borders Hibby]

I believe these guys have been refining their network for centuries. In the old days kids were "stolen by the gypsies" or "ran away to join the circus", or were sold to the "white slave trade". Of course, the more likely explanation was that it was somebody in the locality had abducted the child.

I am guessing that, like drugs, and other forms of criminality, there are worlds within worlds. Besides, it would take a very brave police officer to prosecute a high standing person, with a very strong chance that the trial would collapse due to witness intimidation.

I would like to stress this is pure speculation on my part. I have never really wanted to look into this sort of thing in any depth. I just think it would be naive to see these people as lone predators rather than as being part of a network.

It would be equally naive to think that paedophiles are associated with one social class, and that in the world of grace and favour; of nods and winks, that some people may prefer to turn a blind eye to it in exchange for favour.

It's worth checking this out: Sandra Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Brown_%28campaigner%29). I am not saying that everything she says is right, but difficult questions are raised.

Paedophiles by definition of what they do are very cunning and manipulative people. They do not have 2 heads and most have a very believable and a normal life outside of their offences. The last ring that was found in Edinburgh had mostly middle class anf professional people in it, and they worked together. We should stop being shocked when a seemingly normal person is arrested of these crimes and educated more in what to look for. Silence, fear and inaction are the allies of evil.

[sven nil]

Craig Thomson 10 pages of posts

Hollie greig 2 pages of posts.Incredable

But Hollie darling the truth never changes!

We will keep up the fight.

[Twa Cairpets]

Craig Thomson 10 pages of posts

Hollie greig 2 pages of posts.Incredable

But Hollie darling the truth never changes!

We will keep up the fight.

And whats your point? The contributors to this board are somewhow morally bankrupt?

I've read through this thread, and the contributions are intelligent, balanced and thought provoking

If you want to add something, add something - it sounds that you may have some specific personal interest in the case, in which case a contribution would be of interest. The post as its stands is just trite keech.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Craig Thomson 10 pages of posts

Hollie greig 2 pages of posts.Incredable

But Hollie darling the truth never changes!

We will keep up the fight.

You might be touching on something I feel about people's attitudes to child abuse. Namely that they would rather spend time howling in in indignation than trying to get the true facts.

Everytime there is a case like Thomson, we get all the "I'd do time" nonsense. All people are saying is that it upsets them, and also making it clear that they are not like that themselves.

The page turns, and a new issue comes to the fore and the same sheep start braying about something else. If all the people who shoot their mouth off after they read the News of the World on a Sunday, could remember what they read come Monday, then maybe they could give some serious thought to what is going on.

The reality is that most of the bad things in the world are too uncomfortable for people to give any proper thought. It seems to me that the howls for revenge are really a demand that someone else deals with issues that are too difficult.

The sad fact is that most people live very close to a child that is being abused. You just have to read the stories of survivors, or meet them, and it becomes evident that it is something that goes right to the core of our society.

Calling the bad people "beasts" is like calling Hitler a "monster". It lulls us into thinking that these are rare aberrations of humanity, rather than something that is widespread.

I don't for one minute say that it is something we should accept as a fact of life. I think we should try to find answers as to why it happens though. That's why I get saddened by much of the nonsense that is being spoken about Thomson, IMO a lot of the posts are from people who don't really care, but want some issue to link them to their tribe.

[Twa Cairpets]

You might be touching on something I feel about people's attitudes to child abuse. Namely that they would rather spend time howling in in indignation than trying to get the true facts.

Everytime there is a case like Thomson, we get all the "I'd do time" nonsense. All people are saying is that it upsets them, and also making it clear that they are not like that themselves.

The page turns, and a new issue comes to the fore and the same sheep start braying about something else. If all the people who shoot their mouth off after they read the News of the World on a Sunday, could remember what they read come Monday, then maybe they could give some serious thought to what is going on.

The reality is that most of the bad things in the world are too uncomfortable for people to give any proper thought. It seems to me that the howls for revenge are really a demand that someone else deals with issues that are too difficult.

The sad fact is that most people live very close to a child that is being abused. You just have to read the stories of survivors, or meet them, and it becomes evident that it is something that goes right to the core of our society.

Calling the bad people "beasts" is like calling Hitler a "monster". It lulls us into thinking that these are rare aberrations of humanity, rather than something that is widespread.

I don't for one minute say that it is something we should accept as a fact of life. I think we should try to find answers as to why it happens though. That's why I get saddened by much of the nonsense that is being spoken about Thomson, IMO a lot of the posts are from people who don't really care, but want some issue to link them to their tribe.

I think pretty much everyone who isnt a paedophile finds it pretty abhorrent, and "the howls", as you put it, are just a means of expressing this anger - easy to do in the internet age and if some are less reasoned than others, at least the others get a chance to refute their excesses.

You are right though, there should be a zero tolerance for abuse backed by action rather than by righteous indignation. It was the inverse indignation from sven_nil that hacked me off more than anything on his post. "Hollie darling the truth never changed" unless he knows Hollie, then it is the ultimate "linking to the tribe" post I've ever seen

[lapsedhibee]

You might be touching on something I feel about people's attitudes to child abuse. Namely that they would rather spend time howling in in indignation than trying to get the true facts.

Everytime there is a case like Thomson, we get all the "I'd do time" nonsense. All people are saying is that it upsets them, and also making it clear that they are not like that themselves.

The page turns, and a new issue comes to the fore and the same sheep start braying about something else. If all the people who shoot their mouth off after they read the News of the World on a Sunday, could remember what they read come Monday, then maybe they could give some serious thought to what is going on.

The reality is that most of the bad things in the world are too uncomfortable for people to give any proper thought. It seems to me that the howls for revenge are really a demand that someone else deals with issues that are too difficult.

The sad fact is that most people live very close to a child that is being abused. You just have to read the stories of survivors, or meet them, and it becomes evident that it is something that goes right to the core of our society.

Calling the bad people "beasts" is like calling Hitler a "monster". It lulls us into thinking that these are rare aberrations of humanity, rather than something that is widespread.

I don't for one minute say that it is something we should accept as a fact of life. I think we should try to find answers as to why it happens though. That's why I get saddened by much of the nonsense that is being spoken about Thomson, IMO a lot of the posts are from people who don't really care, but want some issue to link them to their tribe.

10/10.

[Beefster]

Everytime there is a case like Thomson, we get all the "I'd do time" nonsense. All people are saying is that it upsets them, and also making it clear that they are not like that themselves.

You may get "all the "I'd do time" nonsense" but it is possible to object to something without sounding like a Private Eye creation.

I wouldn't dismiss opinion so quickly either. There will definitely be folk on this forum who have been abused by a paedophile or who have family who have been abused by a paedophile or have even lost a family member to a paedophile. I'd forgive them if they didn't wax lyrical in an acceptable fashion about 'rehabilitation' and 'answers'.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You may get "all the "I'd do time" nonsense" but it is possible to object to something without sounding like a Private Eye creation.

I wouldn't dismiss opinion so quickly either. There will definitely be folk on this forum who have been abused by a paedophile or who have family who have been abused by a paedophile or have even lost a family member to a paedophile. I'd forgive them if they didn't wax lyrical in an acceptable fashion about 'rehabilitation' and 'answers'.

I jusr wish we could find a way to stop lives being ruined. I certainly would understand the anger victims would feel, and I sincerely apologise if anyone reading my post thought that I was in any way turning the blame onto the victims.

It is a horrible, devestating abuse of power and takes a person's self esteem and sense of hope from them. Many people never recover and lead broken lives.

[Beefster]

I jusr wish we could find a way to stop lives being ruined. I certainly would understand the anger victims would feel, and I sincerely apologise if anyone reading my post thought that I was in any way turning the blame onto the victims.

It is a horrible, devestating abuse of power and takes a person's self esteem and sense of hope from them. Many people never recover and lead broken lives.

Sorry FR, I wasn't trying to lay a guilt trip on you.

Just trying to articulate that some folk will have their own reasons for the 'hang em' attitude and not really caring about their treatment beyond punishment. The devastation that paedophiles can wreak on someone's life and on that of their family's is incalculable.

Although the offence was slightly different, the comments of Milly Dowler's family regarding how Bellfield gets to live the remainder of his life is a perfect example of how those affected often feel.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry FR, I wasn't trying to lay a guilt trip on you.

Just trying to articulate that some folk will have their own reasons for the 'hang em' attitude and not really caring about their treatment beyond punishment. The devastation that paedophiles can wreak on someone's life and on that of their family's is incalculable.

Although the offence was slightly different, the comments of Milly Dowler's family regarding how Bellfield gets to live the remainder of his life is a perfect example of how those affected often feel.

People deserve justice. :agree:

[sven nil]

And whats your point? The contributors to this board are somewhow morally bankrupt?

I've read through this thread, and the contributions are intelligent, balanced and thought provoking

If you want to add something, add something - it sounds that you may have some specific personal interest in the case, in which case a contribution would be of interest. The post as its stands is just trite keech.

No it was more of an appreciation for the posters on here.why the tangent?

[Twa Cairpets]

No it was more of an appreciation for the posters on here.why the tangent?

I have no idea what this means.

[Betty Boop]

Anybody familiar with this cover up ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSzkIB8184

[Future17]

Anybody familiar with this cover up ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSzkIB8184

Parts of that make for interesting, albeit unsettling, viewing.

I think that, regardless of the base truth, the inherent secrecy of certain organisations - particularly those related to law enforcement - are always going to encourage both the conspiracy theorists and the types of people who are too willing to dismiss these sorts of allegations without sufficient hard evidence either way.

Anyway, it's absolutely heart-wrenching to think what these kids went through is still haunting them in every way. The 9-25 year sentence for Alicia Owen is almost unbelievable in a country like the US and I'll definitely try and do more research into that.

It must take incredible courage to face up to the many pronged powers of the judicial (and non-judicial) elements of US society as a victim in these circumstances, particularly given the suspicion of murder around the death of Caradori and his 8-year-old son. If you believe people are willing to go to those lengths, you must understand that there are no lengths which they wouldn't go to.

I know the topic is very serious, but I couldn't possibly post having watched that without commenting on the severe misfortune of someone being called Troy Boner. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Parts of that make for interesting, albeit unsettling, viewing.

I think that, regardless of the base truth, the inherent secrecy of certain organisations - particularly those related to law enforcement - are always going to encourage both the conspiracy theorists and the types of people who are too willing to dismiss these sorts of allegations without sufficient hard evidence either way.

Anyway, it's absolutely heart-wrenching to think what these kids went through is still haunting them in every way. The 9-25 year sentence for Alicia Owen is almost unbelievable in a country like the US and I'll definitely try and do more research into that.

It must take incredible courage to face up to the many pronged powers of the judicial (and non-judicial) elements of US society as a victim in these circumstances, particularly given the suspicion of murder around the death of Caradori and his 8-year-old son. If you believe people are willing to go to those lengths, you must understand that there are no lengths which they wouldn't go to.

I know the topic is very serious, but I couldn't possibly post having watched that without commenting on the severe misfortune of someone being called Troy Boner. :greengrin

Unfortunate to say the least. More on the case here http://www.franklincase.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85&Itemid=11