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View Full Version : Colin - No more journeymen please



RIP
27-10-2010, 06:51 AM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

Golden Bear
27-10-2010, 07:00 AM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

:top marks

That's far too good a post for this early in the morning.

banarc7062
27-10-2010, 07:42 AM
They should pin a copy of this to the dressing room door and on the notice boards at East Mains:thumbsup:

offshorehibby
27-10-2010, 07:46 AM
I don'y know what people are expecting in the January window. You very rarely pick up the best of players then. What i think CC will be trying to do between now and then is steady the ship. If things are still looking poor then maybe the odd loan till end of season. It's only next season when the dead wood's been punted then i hope he has an eye for a player.

jdships
27-10-2010, 09:12 AM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

Take it you applied for the manager's job and sent your CV to RP ?
I believe there were 403 applications from Hibs Net posters .

:wink::greengrin:rolleyes:

matty_f
27-10-2010, 09:17 AM
Obviously Hibs just have too many players at the moment. There is no need to carry a pool of 30 (ish including loans in and out). I suppose in theory if they get several mediocre/fringe players off the wage bill, the new manager could bring in fewer but higher quality replacements. That is probably being a bit idealistic as it depends who is available and willing to come to ER.

What size of squad do you think a team needs in the SPL? I would say around 20-22, with any shortfalls made up with under 19 players.
I don't think that's being idealistic, I think that was yogi's plan.
We can clearly attract good players to the club, and I think there will be fairly major work done to the squad in the summer, with more leaving than coming in.

Spike Mandela
27-10-2010, 10:41 AM
What do you all expect?

We have sold our best players year on year, we have financed a training centre, built a new stand and kept debt low as possible. All of this to much acclaim on this board.

As a result we are where we are now. A team of vastly diluted talent, full of journeymen training in excellent facilities and to a half full stadium.

Surely this is not a surprise to people but a natural evolution of the strategy Hibs have employed. The strategy many other clubs hold up as a yardstick for running a club. No point moaning about it now.

Things will get better, probably when we next produce a batch of youngsters worth selling, but until then it will be a journeyman ride to yawnsville to maintain low debt levels.

Craig_in_Prague
27-10-2010, 10:54 AM
Still think there's a case for haven signed more quality over quantity over the last 5 years. Fill up the squad with the best youngsters at the club, a couple of decent loan signings and go from there.

Does the manager have a squad budget; or player?

Seriously think we need more quality in the team; which should be affordable under the current financial structure at the club.

It may be the team would suffer if any of the quality players were injured, but by god right now only Deek is the one we'd miss.

We need a new Latapy, Sauzee, Zitelli and co.

I can understand the farming out our younger players coz "it worked in the past" and that there's a case for "getting experience".....but only in Scotland would a U19 team win league + cup, then hardly see anyone of them in the 1st team a couple of years later. Do we REALLY give youngsters a chance?

We badly miss players that can do anything decent on the park. I agree it's just full of journeymen with the odd exception.

CC better have a good eye for a player to build us for the next # of years.
Also get more youth through into the side if possible.

Jim44
27-10-2010, 10:58 AM
I honestly wish Colin all the best in the struggle he has in front of him. The OP is a bit ironic, however, in that, despite his 34(?) caps for Scotland, I always considered Colin Calderwood to be a bit of a journeyman himself.

HFC 0-7
27-10-2010, 10:59 AM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

I agree with this post, however, come the end of the season with so many players out of contract CC may have no choice but to sign sign some new journey men or re sign the ones at the club. I have saidit before, having so many players out of contract at the end of the season can be a good thing, but if they all go then we will need to fill those spots, and filling that many spots will be difficult for a club like hibs with their budgets restraints. We will pay transfer fees for a couple of players but the rest would be frees etc.

CC could find himself trying to sign the best of a bad bunch if all the out of contract players move on.

Cropley10
27-10-2010, 11:03 AM
S
I can understand the farming out our younger players coz "it worked in the past" and that there's a case for "getting experience".....but only in Scotland would a U19 team win league + cup, then hardly see anyone of them in the 1st team a couple of years later. Do we REALLY give youngsters a chance?


So true! I think we're much more likely to give these youngsters a chance than some 'journeyman' too.

Hopefully - it's now obvious that we need more quality. CC has worked in all 4 divisions in Scotland so will have a very good measure on the quality of player available down there who could play in the SPL. We need another Murphy, a Jones even. They must be out there!

easty
27-10-2010, 11:03 AM
I honestly wish Colin all the best in the struggle he has in front of him. The OP is a bit ironic, however, in that, despite his 34(?) caps for Scotland, I always considered Colin Calderwood to be a bit of a journeyman himself.

Really? He only played for 6 teams in his pro career. The 6th being a loan out at the end of his playing days. 8 years at Swindon, then 6 at Spurs. (thanks Wikipedia...)

Viva_Palmeiras
27-10-2010, 11:05 AM
Could it have been a master plan hatched by rp and yogi
Is there impending doom forecast with clubs being forced to cut Their wage bills across the country an increase in surplus players depressed salaries due to the downturn when the recession truly bites ? I mean football can hardly be immune with the job losses increased vat and reduction in benefits hitting home?

easty
27-10-2010, 11:13 AM
The money isn't there to go and sign a Sauzee or Zitelli unfortunately.

The youngsters go out on loan to get experience of 1st team football, it's just the way football is. Playing with/against other 17 or 18 year olds and performing well doesn't mean you are ready and/or good enough to play against seasoned pros. If it's good enough for David Beckham to go out on loan before breaking into the Man Utd first team then it's good enough for anyone at Hibs. It toughens them up, mentally as well as physically, and those who can't handle it should then get found out before being put in the first team destined to fail.

Jim44
27-10-2010, 11:19 AM
Really? He only played for 6 teams in his pro career. The 6th being a loan out at the end of his playing days. 8 years at Swindon, then 6 at Spurs. (thanks Wikipedia...)

I think you're using the term 'journeymen' in it's literal form. I'm using the word in it's wider sense of - ' a player who is technically competent, but unable to excel.'

Part/Time Supporter
27-10-2010, 11:30 AM
I think you're using the term 'journeymen' in it's literal form. I'm using the word in it's wider sense of - ' a player who is technically competent, but unable to excel.'

By that definition, 99.9% of all football players are journeymen. He was transferred for £1m+ in the early 1990s (ie before Sky money made average players worth that much), won over 30 caps for a decent Scotland side and played in two major tournaments.

Caroline Hibby
27-10-2010, 11:36 AM
Interesting that posters appear happy to give CC time 'to steady the ship'. It won't be that in 2 or 3 months. CC's comments about improving 'quickly' and 'asap' is an indicator to me that he knows the fans will turn on him quickly unless things improve immediately. The good news is that our performances can't get much worse so immediate improvement may be possible. He certainly seems to be giving them a foot up the a**e via his level of fitness training (see other threads and comments in EEN). I hope he gets his AM sorted soon so that he can concentrate entirely on all matters on the pitch. IMHO I think we'll see a different team, literally, by derby day.

Sammy7nil
27-10-2010, 11:45 AM
I honestly wish Colin all the best in the struggle he has in front of him. The OP is a bit ironic, however, in that, despite his 34(?) caps for Scotland, I always considered Colin Calderwood to be a bit of a journeyman himself.


Journeyman :cool2:

Wish we had a few like Colin in our team.

P.S. a tribunal set his transfer fee at over £million

Jim44
27-10-2010, 11:46 AM
By that definition, 99.9% of all football players are journeymen. He was transferred for £1m+ in the early 1990s (ie before Sky money made average players worth that much), won over 30 caps for a decent Scotland side and played in two major tournaments.

I can't argue with the facts P/TS, but the player I saw still remains a journeyman in my eyes and memory.

NORTHERNHIBBY
27-10-2010, 11:58 AM
I hope that before he looks in other places for players he looks at what we have at easter road first. Not just the first team. I don't see the point in shipping players out just to ship new players in, when we could have more than adequate [albeit young] players already on our books. If Kurtis Byrne was still with us, he would be getting an extended run in the first team.

Speedway
27-10-2010, 12:49 PM
Still think there's a case for haven signed more quality over quantity over the last 5 years. Fill up the squad with the best youngsters at the club, a couple of decent loan signings and go from there.

Does the manager have a squad budget; or player?

Seriously think we need more quality in the team; which should be affordable under the current financial structure at the club.

It may be the team would suffer if any of the quality players were injured, but by god right now only Deek is the one we'd miss.

We need a new Latapy, Sauzee, Zitelli and co.

I can understand the farming out our younger players coz "it worked in the past" and that there's a case for "getting experience".....but only in Scotland would a U19 team win league + cup, then hardly see anyone of them in the 1st team a couple of years later. Do we REALLY give youngsters a chance?

We badly miss players that can do anything decent on the park. I agree it's just full of journeymen with the odd exception.

CC better have a good eye for a player to build us for the next # of years.
Also get more youth through into the side if possible.

That an interesting statement with wages at 68% of turnover currently. How is a better quality affordable within the current structure (of looking to bring the wage bill down)?


I think you're using the term 'journeymen' in it's literal form. I'm using the word in it's wider sense of - ' a player who is technically competent, but unable to excel.'

Or as we know it - the SPL.

easty
27-10-2010, 12:53 PM
I hope that before he looks in other places for players he looks at what we have at easter road first. Not just the first team. I don't see the point in shipping players out just to ship new players in, when we could have more than adequate [albeit young] players already on our books. If Kurtis Byrne was still with us, he would be getting an extended run in the first team.

Kurtis Byrne should be left out on loan for the season in my opinion. Remember Damon Gray, a lot of folk thought he was going to be something special, got put in the 1st team and didnt progress. Give Byrne a season of 1st team football at a lower level and then let him mix it up with the SPL defenders.

Dashing Bob S
27-10-2010, 01:01 PM
I honestly wish Colin all the best in the struggle he has in front of him. The OP is a bit ironic, however, in that, despite his 34(?) caps for Scotland, I always considered Colin Calderwood to be a bit of a journeyman himself.

I don't think it's ironic at all that he was both a journeyman and an established Scottish international. I always thought that status was a prerequisite for international selection in this country.

easty
27-10-2010, 01:04 PM
I don't think it's ironic at all that he was both a journeyman and an established Scottish international. I always thought that status was a prerequisite for international selection in this country.

....but he wasn't.

Speedway
27-10-2010, 01:09 PM
....but he wasn't.

Was he male and did he ever go on a journey?

Exactly.

easty
27-10-2010, 01:28 PM
Was he male and did he ever go on a journey?

Exactly.

Ahhh...a wise man you are. Can't argue with logic like that.

Craig_in_Prague
27-10-2010, 01:34 PM
That an interesting statement with wages at 68% of turnover currently. How is a better quality affordable within the current structure (of looking to bring the wage bill down)?



Quality over Quantity.

Then fill up squad with the best youngsters. Add a couple of loans if needed.

Must be a way to improve this playing squad with the money we have.

We signed Stokes, Riordan, Miller, etc, we need more of that and less of your journeyman.

Other clubs could have paid a lot more than we could when we had Latapy and Sauzee or Zitelli. But we still got them signed. So a few gems must still be possible.

We certainly need to do something because watching Hibs right now, is no better than some people could see at junior level near by where they live or even lower than that.

I know fans should go along no matter what, but lets face it many people can see better things to do with their 20-30 quid (and whole match day is probably double that).
Short changed I would say!

ekhibee
27-10-2010, 01:45 PM
What do you all expect?

We have sold our best players year on year, we have financed a training centre, built a new stand and kept debt low as possible. All of this to much acclaim on this board.

As a result we are where we are now. A team of vastly diluted talent, full of journeymen training in excellent facilities and to a half full stadium.

Surely this is not a surprise to people but a natural evolution of the strategy Hibs have employed. The strategy many other clubs hold up as a yardstick for running a club. No point moaning about it now.

Things will get better, probably when we next produce a batch of youngsters worth selling, but until then it will be a journeyman ride to yawnsville to maintain low debt levels.
:top marks Quite right. And I suppose I've got a cheek to suggest as well that when we do offload all the average/poor players we have, we buy a smaller, but better quality group of players, pay them better wages, get better results, bring the crowds back, and encourage and attract good players to stay at Hibs. But that's daft, good players would only go to the OF/England cos they pay largely inflated pay packets. We're constantly told on here that that's a fact, end of. I would love some day to see my club, Hibs, play in the Champions League, but it just isn't going to happen, it's too ambitious for the board, and for many of the people who post on here too. Just being a bit controversial for a minute, why the hell did we bother building a brand new state of the art training facility if the height of our ambition stretches to filling it with average/below average players? I obviously don't include the under 19's regarding that, but they'll be sold on if they're any good after a season or two in the first team. And I'm not at all interested in using Hearts as an example of what to do if you want to challenge for major honours in this country, and get the opportunity to play in the Champions League. If we don't have any ambition, and I think that's what you were hinting at Spike, then all this money spent on infrastructure, to me anyway, looks a bit pointless. Rant over, I fully expect there to be LOADS of people that disagree with me!

Speedway
27-10-2010, 01:58 PM
Quality over Quantity.

Then fill up squad with the best youngsters. Add a couple of loans if needed.

Must be a way to improve this playing squad with the money we have.

We signed Stokes, Riordan, Miller, etc, we need more of that and less of your journeyman.

Other clubs could have paid a lot more than we could when we had Latapy and Sauzee or Zitelli. But we still got them signed. So a few gems must still be possible.

We certainly need to do something because watching Hibs right now, is no better than some people could see at junior level near by where they live or even lower than that.

I know fans should go along no matter what, but lets face it many people can see better things to do with their 20-30 quid (and whole match day is probably double that).
Short changed I would say!

Isn't this exactly what Hughes was trying to do though bringing in players from Utrecht, Middlesborough, Celtic, Preston, Bristol Rovers, and Breda. Then when he'd spent up, the board told him he couldn't have Gow so he panicked and looked at Denneboom and Biscan and ended up with Trakys.

Cropley10
27-10-2010, 01:58 PM
:top marks Quite right. And I suppose I've got a cheek to suggest as well that when we do offload all the average/poor players we have, we buy a smaller, but better quality group of players, pay them better wages, get better results, bring the crowds back, and encourage and attract good players to stay at Hibs. But that's daft, good players would only go to the OF/England cos they pay largely inflated pay packets. We're constantly told on here that that's a fact, end of. I would love some day to see my club, Hibs, play in the Champions League, but it just isn't going to happen, it's too ambitious for the board, and for many of the people who post on here too. Just being a bit controversial for a minute, why the hell did we bother building a brand new state of the art training facility if the height of our ambition stretches to filling it with average/below average players? I obviously don't include the under 19's regarding that, but they'll be sold on if they're any good after a season or two in the first team. And I'm not at all interested in using Hearts as an example of what to do if you want to challenge for major honours in this country, and get the opportunity to play in the Champions League. If we don't have any ambition, and I think that's what you were hinting at Spike, then all this money spent on infrastructure, to me anyway, looks a bit pointless. Rant over, I fully expect there to be LOADS of people that disagree with me!

Some very good points.

I think we're at rock bottom from a team and squad perspective. The only way is UP!

But we must learn the lessons of the past, in terms of hiring managers and buying players. Otherwise - as you say - what exactly is the point of all this 'infrastructure'.

Interesting times ahead Hibees!!

easty
27-10-2010, 02:01 PM
:top marks Quite right. And I suppose I've got a cheek to suggest as well that when we do offload all the average/poor players we have, we buy a smaller, but better quality group of players, pay them better wages, get better results, bring the crowds back, and encourage and attract good players to stay at Hibs. But that's daft, good players would only go to the OF/England cos they pay largely inflated pay packets. We're constantly told on here that that's a fact, end of. I would love some day to see my club, Hibs, play in the Champions League, but it just isn't going to happen, it's too ambitious for the board, and for many of the people who post on here too. Just being a bit controversial for a minute, why the hell did we bother building a brand new state of the art training facility if the height of our ambition stretches to filling it with average/below average players? I obviously don't include the under 19's regarding that, but they'll be sold on if they're any good after a season or two in the first team. And I'm not at all interested in using Hearts as an example of what to do if you want to challenge for major honours in this country, and get the opportunity to play in the Champions League. If we don't have any ambition, and I think that's what you were hinting at Spike, then all this money spent on infrastructure, to me anyway, looks a bit pointless. Rant over, I fully expect there to be LOADS of people that disagree with me!

I'll be the first to disagree then. I don't know where you think the money is meant to come from to get Hibs a team capable of qualifying for the Champions League?

Theres no Hibs fan who wouldnt love to see us on that stage but it's not the lack of ambition that's stopping us. It's the fact that financially there is no way we can compete with the Old Firm.

Part/Time Supporter
27-10-2010, 02:24 PM
Quality over Quantity.

Then fill up squad with the best youngsters. Add a couple of loans if needed.

Must be a way to improve this playing squad with the money we have.

We signed Stokes, Riordan, Miller, etc, we need more of that and less of your journeyman.

Other clubs could have paid a lot more than we could when we had Latapy and Sauzee or Zitelli. But we still got them signed. So a few gems must still be possible.

We certainly need to do something because watching Hibs right now, is no better than some people could see at junior level near by where they live or even lower than that.

I know fans should go along no matter what, but lets face it many people can see better things to do with their 20-30 quid (and whole match day is probably double that).
Short changed I would say!

1. What if the squad (possibly team) filling youngsters aren't up to it?

2. What if the supposed "quality" players don't perform? By common consent, Miller hasn't kicked a ball in months (for example).

Sauzee / Latapy were helped by the fact they were surrounded by supposed "journeymen" who were mostly decent or better than decent players, ie Mixu, Smith, Fenwick, Lovell, Laursen and so on. Only problem being that once you have a squad like that you have a wage bill in excess of Hibs' normal means.

Craig_in_Prague
27-10-2010, 03:22 PM
1. What if the squad (possibly team) filling youngsters aren't up to it?

2. What if the supposed "quality" players don't perform? By common consent, Miller hasn't kicked a ball in months (for example).

Sauzee / Latapy were helped by the fact they were surrounded by supposed "journeymen" who were mostly decent or better than decent players, ie Mixu, Smith, Fenwick, Lovell, Laursen and so on. Only problem being that once you have a squad like that you have a wage bill in excess of Hibs' normal means.

I don't have all the answers mate; just trying to suggest a strategy as apposed to what we suffer right now.

1. We're renowned for producing good young players; so we keep hearing.
Though is Wotherspoon as good as De Graff? McCann any worse than Hart? Byrne any worse than Trakys / Nish? The lad Booth looked amazing prospect at LB, he's not even had 1 game / chance.
I don't think we quite give youth as much a chance as we're led to believe.
It may be that it doesn't work, but i've not seen anything to suggest that it wouldn't.
Watching even the U21 Scotland team was a breath of fresh air compared to the senior drivel.
the lad templeton at Hearts is young? yet plays a lot.

2. there is no guarentee that any player will perform all the time.
But you know if we have a team of sauzee, latapy, l miller, stokes, riordan, zitelli, etc, you're more than likely to have a team that's capable of producing the goods more often than not; And more importantly gets the fans through the gates because they have that element of class and as fans we feed off "what might they produce today" feeling..........

This crap we're served up now?
Boring, predictable and just plan gash.

We should be able to afford a couple more decent players, or if this is the standard we're going to stay at for years to come; then I'll be watching less and less and less of the hibees I'm afraid, and others will be the same.

of course, CC might get more out of the crap at his disposal and then at least we might attempt to punch our weight again. Lets hope so.

Spike Mandela
27-10-2010, 03:39 PM
:top marks Quite right. And I suppose I've got a cheek to suggest as well that when we do offload all the average/poor players we have, we buy a smaller, but better quality group of players, pay them better wages, get better results, bring the crowds back, and encourage and attract good players to stay at Hibs. But that's daft, good players would only go to the OF/England cos they pay largely inflated pay packets. We're constantly told on here that that's a fact, end of. I would love some day to see my club, Hibs, play in the Champions League, but it just isn't going to happen, it's too ambitious for the board, and for many of the people who post on here too. Just being a bit controversial for a minute, why the hell did we bother building a brand new state of the art training facility if the height of our ambition stretches to filling it with average/below average players? I obviously don't include the under 19's regarding that, but they'll be sold on if they're any good after a season or two in the first team. And I'm not at all interested in using Hearts as an example of what to do if you want to challenge for major honours in this country, and get the opportunity to play in the Champions League. If we don't have any ambition, and I think that's what you were hinting at Spike, then all this money spent on infrastructure, to me anyway, looks a bit pointless. Rant over, I fully expect there to be LOADS of people that disagree with me!

None of us started supporting Hibs because 'we liked the state of the finances', because of 'the state of the stadium' or because of 'the fabulous facilities our players trained in'.

Most of us started supporting Hibs because of the football, good and bad, because of the excitement and passion in the games and in the crowd and the match day experience.

Whether through lack of ambition or the cyclical nature of football the matchday experience at ER thes days are deadly DULL. The longer this continues the quicker the crowds will drop and any progression at Hibs will be slowed or indeed reversed.

I don't have the answers on how to do it but we desperately need an injection of excitement and entertainment at ER sooner rather than later.

HFC 0-7
27-10-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't have all the answers mate; just trying to suggest a strategy as apposed to what we suffer right now.

1. We're renowned for producing good young players; so we keep hearing.
Though is Wotherspoon as good as De Graff? McCann any worse than Hart? Byrne any worse than Trakys / Nish? The lad Booth looked amazing prospect at LB, he's not even had 1 game / chance.
I don't think we quite give youth as much a chance as we're led to believe.
It may be that it doesn't work, but i've not seen anything to suggest that it wouldn't.
Watching even the U21 Scotland team was a breath of fresh air compared to the senior drivel.
the lad templeton at Hearts is young? yet plays a lot.

2. there is no guarentee that any player will perform all the time.
But you know if we have a team of sauzee, latapy, l miller, stokes, riordan, zitelli, etc, you're more than likely to have a team that's capable of producing the goods more often than not; And more importantly gets the fans through the gates because they have that element of class and as fans we feed off "what might they produce today" feeling..........

This crap we're served up now?
Boring, predictable and just plan gash.

We should be able to afford a couple more decent players, or if this is the standard we're going to stay at for years to come; then I'll be watching less and less and less of the hibees I'm afraid, and others will be the same.

of course, CC might get more out of the crap at his disposal and then at least we might attempt to punch our weight again. Lets hope so.

Re the bit in bold, I think its down to whoever is manager. I think yogi was thought to be a manager who gives youth a chance but, IMO, it turned out that he only gave youth a chance if everything else failed. He used youth at Falkirk but I think that was a last resort at times and to be fair it paid off for him with certain players. He gave wotherspoon a chance but was probably forced down that route through lack of options.

Think it all depends on the manager, Mowbray didnt mind using young players but I think that showed itself in big important games like the derbies where it may have been too much for the young players.

snooky
27-10-2010, 04:13 PM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

I wish you had applied for the manager's job.
All boxes ticked. Basic common sense, settled team, etc. :thumbsup:

There you go CC, job done.

Ray_
27-10-2010, 06:10 PM
1. What if the squad (possibly team) filling youngsters aren't up to it?

Sauzee / Latapy were helped by the fact they were surrounded by supposed "journeymen" who were mostly decent or better than decent players, ie Mixu, Smith, Fenwick, Lovell, Laursen and so on. Only problem being that once you have a squad like that you have a wage bill in excess of Hibs' normal means.

I haven't read anybody say that Sauzee & Latapy were the only players that McLeish had that could play? I do know that the squad was very top heavy of players who had cost cash to get them in to the club & they were paid a decent wage but made no impact on the first team.

new malkyhib
27-10-2010, 07:26 PM
:top marks Quite right. And I suppose I've got a cheek to suggest as well that when we do offload all the average/poor players we have, we buy a smaller, but better quality group of players, pay them better wages, get better results, bring the crowds back, and encourage and attract good players to stay at Hibs. But that's daft, good players would only go to the OF/England cos they pay largely inflated pay packets. We're constantly told on here that that's a fact, end of. I would love some day to see my club, Hibs, play in the Champions League, but it just isn't going to happen, it's too ambitious for the board, and for many of the people who post on here too. Just being a bit controversial for a minute, why the hell did we bother building a brand new state of the art training facility if the height of our ambition stretches to filling it with average/below average players? I obviously don't include the under 19's regarding that, but they'll be sold on if they're any good after a season or two in the first team. And I'm not at all interested in using Hearts as an example of what to do if you want to challenge for major honours in this country, and get the opportunity to play in the Champions League. If we don't have any ambition, and I think that's what you were hinting at Spike, then all this money spent on infrastructure, to me anyway, looks a bit pointless. Rant over, I fully expect there to be LOADS of people that disagree with me!

I'm liking the cut o' your jib, ek (you forgot one point though, better teams generate more revenue) - but the flaws in your argument are as follows:

It's too idealistic and it makes too much commonsense for a Board of non-football, rugger-boy accountants - and the man with the moustache and the combination to the safe (not forgetting the 10% stake) will never go for it.

So dream on mate, but fair play to you for putting into words so succinctly what a lot of us feel. Cheers pal:top marks

weonlywon6-2
27-10-2010, 07:47 PM
Keep letting those contracts run down. Don't panic in the January window and sign fillers who won't add value to us in the next few seasons. 83 players in the last 5 years is seven teams or 4 full squads. Madness - absolute madness!!

Go for a settled side and formation and start the same 11 for a couple of months. It's no coincidence many of us can still name Turnbull's Tornadoes. A team built on a solid foundation of home grown players.

Try playing with wing backs and wingers - the whole SPL game in 2010 is about running at your opponent and beating your man, getting to the by line

Go for speed rather than tippy tappy. Play off the front foot rather than the back foot

Most importantly - let's get guys who can tackle into defensive midfield - Ian Murray for example. None of this shuffling backwards and shadowing your man.

Oh aye - find ooot what's happening with that Merouane Zemmamma :wink:

yeah,please no more sauzee,latapy or zitelli journeymen please:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ekhibee
27-10-2010, 10:14 PM
I'm liking the cut o' your jib, ek (you forgot one point though, better teams generate more revenue) - but the flaws in your argument are as follows:

It's too idealistic and it makes too much commonsense for a Board of non-football, rugger-boy accountants - and the man with the moustache and the combination to the safe (not forgetting the 10% stake) will never go for it.

So dream on mate, but fair play to you for putting into words so succinctly what a lot of us feel. Cheers pal:top marks
Cheers Malky, and of course you're right, it is far too idealistic, but as you say, for just now I can always dream!

sesoim
27-10-2010, 11:04 PM
Obviously Hibs just have too many players at the moment. There is no need to carry a pool of 30 (ish including loans in and out). I suppose in theory if they get several mediocre/fringe players off the wage bill, the new manager could bring in fewer but higher quality replacements. That is probably being a bit idealistic as it depends who is available and willing to come to ER.

What size of squad do you think a team needs in the SPL? I would say around 20-22, with any shortfalls made up with under 19 players.


We generally have a first team of around 22 players, with a few youngsters on the fringes, but the number has certainly crept up recently.

I don't know what the standard of the youngsters are, but I'd rather have a core of about 16 GOOD players, with the youths coming in to supplement the squad. If we play a youngster just now, he wont learn much from most of the (mediocre) players we currently have. But if we can clear out 15 of the current squad and use their wages to buy maybe 6 quality players, I think we could have a good balance of youth and experience.