FRONT page of the herald today

[clerriehibs]

Apparently, we're doomed ... there's a big black border round the story in print ...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/

Someone should have shouted "Hold the front page" though ... isn't this doom and gloom story just describing our previously admired business model? Has a maverick jambo made it on to the Herald editorial team?

[SlickShoes]

I dont see how that is even a story worth writing as a reporter.

Hibs make a profit. Then some thinly veiled digs about going out of business somehow, i dont really know what to make of the article, it just kind of says some things you could find on wikipedia anyway.

[Aubenas]

Absolutely bizarre subbing decision. It's two weeks late; it reports a team with 7 years of profit as if we were in financial trouble instead of one of the most financially secure clubs in Scotland, it's two weeks late on news that's in the public domain and it makes a front page link to Dundee's administration woes.

WTF:confused:

[GreenPJ]

I dont see how that is even a story worth writing as a reporter.

Hibs make a profit. Then some thinly veiled digs about going out of business somehow, i dont really know what to make of the article, it just kind of says some things you could find on wikipedia anyway.

:agree: Its a non-story. I thought the Herald was a good paper as well but that is a waste of news print.

[matty_f]

Apparently, we're doomed ... there's a big black border round the story in print ...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/

Someone should have shouted "Hold the front page" though ... isn't this doom and gloom story just describing our previously admired business model? Has a maverick jambo made it on to the Herald editorial team?

What a strange choice of article, and an odd slant on things. Is he trying to imply that we're in trouble? We're mentioned in the same breath as Dundee, FFS! Mental!

[lyonhibs]

If is Tim Sharp is actually supposed to be providing insightful City advice to The Herald's (presumably diminshing???) readership, I'd strongly advise them to take any paper - including the NoTW - and turn to the wee joke 3 page Business section they all have. Anything written therein is likely to be more reliable than that absolute tripe.

Is it a surprise that profits from transfers are a major financial lever in Hibs modus operandi??? - Shouldn't be to anyone with a clue.

Is it a surprise that when you reduce capacity that income drops somewhat - especially as we'd have got well over the 3-stand capacity for the OF and Jambo game in the top 6 at the end of last season?? - Shouldn't be to anyone with a clue.

Leads me to conclude that this fellae doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

[Andy74]

Bizarre.

Reeks of a Jambo.

[Liberal Hibby]

Dunno what people are actually bothering about - the facts are as reported. It may be a bit negative in its tone and focusses on a club that is not exactly the worst case in Scotland - but it is a useful wake up call for all those saying Petrie should push the boat out and employ some expensive English/Foreign manager and sign ridiculously expensive players.

Hibs are existing just above the breadline - which is better than most, but not a good place to be.

Perhaps it will help to downgrade people's expectations of what our ambitions might be, but given some of the ridiculous signing/manager suggestions I fear not.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

And just days ago Dundee FC went into administration for the second time.



And this has exactly what to do with us? :confused:

No real news here - move along :wink:

[IWasThere2016]

Absolutely bizarre subbing decision. It's two weeks late; it reports a team with 7 years of profit as if we were in financial trouble instead of one of the most financially secure clubs in Scotland, it's two weeks late on news that's in the public domain and it makes a front page link to Dundee's administration woes.

WTF:confused:

Yes - in that the story is old news viz reported elsewhere weeks ago - but it is factual otherwise.

The mention of Dundee is out of context and just a clear sign of poor journalism/editing IMHO.

[Kaiser1962]

A jambo told me that if we hadnt sold the players we did we would have lost £2m a year for the last five years. I pointed out that we did sell players and thats why we made a profit for the last five years and that its called good business practice. I would be more worried, i told him, if we had sold players and still been losing money at the rate of , say, £8m a year.

The bottom line is we made a profit, spent half the money and still finished above them.

[sesoim]

Dunno what people are actually bothering about - the facts are as reported. It may be a bit negative in its tone and focusses on a club that is not exactly the worst case in Scotland - but it is a useful wake up call for all those saying Petrie should push the boat out and employ some expensive English/Foreign manager and sign ridiculously expensive players.

Hibs are existing just above the breadline - which is better than most, but not a good place to be.

Perhaps it will help to downgrade people's expectations of what our ambitions might be, but given some of the ridiculous signing/manager suggestions I fear not.


If we operate too far above the breadline, we'll go into the black and start incurring taxes. So really, we're doing fine. If we can start doing better in the Cups (and Europe) again like we should be, that would of course be better.

[500miles]

So the news is that Hibs are a selling club?

News? Really?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Our big profit in 2007 was also due to selling players. Can't be long till we're "troubled Hibs" in journo speak again.

http://lake.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83452654869e200e55282a8928834-500pi

[Sas_The_Hibby]

"pre-tax profit for the year to July 31 slipped from £686,000 to £139,000, accounts obtained by The Herald from Companies House revealed"

Makes it sound like brilliant investigative journalism, when everyone's known this openly for some time. :rolleyes:

It is bizarre how it's slanted - reading it you'd think Hibs were the least financially secure club in the country. Why we're not even the least financially secure club in the city! :wink:

[Aubenas]

Absolutely bizarre subbing decision.
I meant mostly to put it in a box on the front page just below the masthead!!!!!!

[RickyS]

Bizarre.

Reeks of a Jambo.

I have just put ma jammies on and so do my boxers:greengrin

[madabouthibs]

I'd read it as a journo using an apparently well run club, like Hibs, to underline just how bad Scottish football is financially, in general terms. I don't actually think its a dig at Hibs directly, in fact it could be taken as a compliment regarding our situation, as being the best of a bad bunch. :agree:

The worrying thing now is, wheres the next batch of multi million pound "bill payers" coming from? :cool2:

[PaulSmith]

I don't normally like to post things that are on JKB but this from the Gasman. :greengrin

My understanding is that HFC Holdings has in the region of £25,000,000 of debt, with the ground and the football club as it's assets. I also believe that while a substantial part of the interest on this debt is being met personally by Sir Tom Farmer, the bulk of it is being added to the debt year on year.

If the parent company's debt is increasing, the value of the football club is decreasing, and the football club's debt is increasing something has to give.

I wonder how long STF will keep writing cheques? :blink:

What happens when he stops? :unsure:
Tick tock perhaps? :whistling:

[Bostonhibby]

I don't normally like to post things that are on JKB but this from the Gasman. :greengrin

My understanding is that HFC Holdings has in the region of £25,000,000 of debt, with the ground and the football club as it's assets. I also believe that while a substantial part of the interest on this debt is being met personally by Sir Tom Farmer, the bulk of it is being added to the debt year on year.

If the parent company's debt is increasing, the value of the football club is decreasing, and the football club's debt is increasing something has to give.

I wonder how long STF will keep writing cheques? :blink:

What happens when he stops? :unsure:
Tick tock perhaps? :whistling:


"I also believe", Aye, they do that right enough. And just to ram the point home, I am absolutely certain that our board will have shared this insight with a man, that by his own volition might be full of gas, or worse.

Sir Tom has been around a while, doesn't seem to have behaved in the way their "top men" have, and isn't actually writing cheques in the manner implied as the club continues to be running within its means with manageable debts. Ah well, dont let reality get in the way of a good story, especially if it makes them feel better.

Our ground, and its structure is highly likely to be an asset worth having on the balance sheet, I suspect its only the site upon which the PBS stands that any reasonable auditor / valuation would put in the asset column,and thats only its development value - the structure standing on it being what is known as a liability.

[matty_f]

I don't normally like to post things that are on JKB but this from the Gasman. :greengrin

My understanding is that HFC Holdings has in the region of £25,000,000 of debt, with the ground and the football club as it's assets. I also believe that while a substantial part of the interest on this debt is being met personally by Sir Tom Farmer, the bulk of it is being added to the debt year on year.

If the parent company's debt is increasing, the value of the football club is decreasing, and the football club's debt is increasing something has to give.

I wonder how long STF will keep writing cheques? :blink:

What happens when he stops? :unsure:
Tick tock perhaps? :whistling:



In his wettest dreams this is the case.

Is this the boy that claimed they'd have their stadium finished before us?:greengrin

[Westie1875]

I don't normally like to post things that are on JKB but this from the Gasman. :greengrin

My understanding is that HFC Holdings has in the region of £25,000,000 of debt, with the ground and the football club as it's assets. I also believe that while a substantial part of the interest on this debt is being met personally by Sir Tom Farmer, the bulk of it is being added to the debt year on year.

If the parent company's debt is increasing, the value of the football club is decreasing, and the football club's debt is increasing something has to give.

I wonder how long STF will keep writing cheques? :blink:

What happens when he stops? :unsure:
Tick tock perhaps? :whistling:



He wishes even a tiny bit of that was true :faf:

[GloryGlory]

"pre-tax profit for the year to July 31 slipped from £686,000 to £139,000, accounts obtained by The Herald from Companies House revealed"

Makes it sound like brilliant investigative journalism, when everyone's known this openly for some time. :rolleyes:

It is bizarre how it's slanted - reading it you'd think Hibs were the least financially secure club in the country. Why we're not even the least financially secure club in the city! :wink:

Exactly - since all this information was posted on the official site and reported in other media sources weeks ago! Strange editorial decision at the Herald - unless you take into account that yesterday was Rangers AGM. Maybe a bit of deflecting attention from the financial situation at Greyskull, or part of the Rantic long term badmouth-Scottish-football-at-every-opportunity-so-we-can-get-in-the-EPL strategy, aided and abetted by their supine fellow travellers in the weegie meeja?

[GloryGlory]

Absolutely bizarre subbing decision. It's two weeks late; it reports a team with 7 years of profit as if we were in financial trouble instead of one of the most financially secure clubs in Scotland, it's two weeks late on news that's in the public domain and it makes a front page link to Dundee's administration woes.

WTF:confused:

More than two weeks late, as information about the accounts was released in advance of Hibs' AGM.

Bizarre, especially as the article implicitly links Hibs with Dundee's financial plight and administration, hinting that Hibs will be next. Now I know that Scottish football finances are generally precarious, but on the list of "who's next?", you would pick 9 or 10 others in the SPL before Hibs (e.g. Rangers, Kilmarnock, Yams, Dundee U for starters) in terms of financial instability, and most of the clubs in the SFL (e.g. Dunfermline, Raith, Livingston).

[Caversham Green]

Our big profit in 2007 was also due to selling players. Can't be long till we're "troubled Hibs" in journo speak again.

http://lake.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83452654869e200e55282a8928834-500pi

Actually, we made a profit before player sales in 2006 and 2007 - losses since then though.


I don't normally like to post things that are on JKB but this from the Gasman. :greengrin

My understanding is that HFC Holdings has in the region of £25,000,000 of debt, with the ground and the football club as it's assets. I also believe that while a substantial part of the interest on this debt is being met personally by Sir Tom Farmer, the bulk of it is being added to the debt year on year.

If the parent company's debt is increasing, the value of the football club is decreasing, and the football club's debt is increasing something has to give.

I wonder how long STF will keep writing cheques? :blink:

What happens when he stops? :unsure:
Tick tock perhaps? :whistling:


:faf::faf::faf: Not that I would expect anyone to believe that pish, but for the avoidance of doubt, the only "debt" the holding company has is the £5m preference shares held by Morston which have to be classified as a liability under accounting rules. They don't carry any interest or dividend and they don't have to be repaid. Ever. Also, since Morston is owned by STF, we only owe it to ourselves.....

Oh, and HFC don't own the ground or the training centre. Gasman could hardly be more wrong.

[robinp]

Actually, we made a profit before player sales in 2006 and 2007 - losses since then though.



:faf::faf::faf: Not that I would expect anyone to believe that pish, but for the avoidance of doubt, the only "debt" the holding company has is the £5m preference shares held by Morston which have to be classified as a liability under accounting rules. They don't carry any interest or dividend and they don't have to be repaid. Ever. Also, since Morston is owned by STF, we only owe it to ourselves.....

Oh, and HFC don't own the ground or the training centre. Gasman could hardly be more wrong.

Just the man - I actually looked into the ridiculous post by the Jambo on kickback and as far as I can tell the Holding company lists it's debt's payable in more than 1 year as £5m which is shares as you have mentioned. However I noticed another company - can you explain the nature of Maidencraig Investments No1 Limited in relation to the holding company HFC Holdings Limited and The Hibernian Football Club Limited, and whats the purpose of it .

edit: I would also agree with what you said about the Ground/Training Centre - in the notes section of the last set of Maidencraig Accounts, under assets it details that Easter Road Stadium and the Training Centre are assets of The Hibernian Football Club Limited which I believe is the actual club. NOT the Holding company as spouted by the Yam!

[Keith_M]

Have a look at today's Herald Online sports section. (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport)

Error number 1, why have they got photos of the Rangers AGM in both the Rangers AND Dundee links

Error number 2, why does the caption under the photo of the Rangers AGM Story (http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/rangers/without-a-buyer-or-guaranteed-revenue-board-admit-rangers-are-a-selling-club-1.1062354)describe the people in the photo as Gordon Chisholm. *

Main point of all this is that they're trying desperately to put Rangers current plight in some kind of "context".



* Update: They just fixed the Gordon Chisholm error. At least they get some things right... eventually.

[Caversham Green]

Just the man - I actually looked into the ridiculous post by the Jambo on kickback and as far as I can tell the Holding company lists it's debt's payable in more than 1 year as £5m which is shares as you have mentioned. However I noticed another company - can you explain the nature of Maidencraig Investments No1 Limited in relation to the holding company HFC Holdings Limited and The Hibernian Football Club Limited, and whats the purpose of it .

edit: I would also agree with what you said about the Ground/Training Centre - in the notes section of the last set of Maidencraig Accounts, under assets it details that Easter Road Stadium and the Training Centre are assets of The Hibernian Football Club Limited which I believe is the actual club. NOT the Holding company as spouted by the Yam!

I don't know a lot about Maidencraig TBH - They look like a new holding company further up the chain, but there have been a few structural changes in the last year or so. I'll look a bit further and see what I can find. You're right about The Hibernian Football Club Limited being the actual club.

[basehibby]

I can't find this story anywhere - could it be the Herald have pulled it out of embarassment?!?!?

[persevere1875]

I can't find this story anywhere - could it be the Herald have pulled it out of embarassment?!?!?


I think the original link is now taking you to Todays front page and not yesterdays when the post was added, I tried and couldnt see it either

[Caversham Green]

I don't know a lot about Maidencraig TBH - They look like a new holding company further up the chain, but there have been a few structural changes in the last year or so. I'll look a bit further and see what I can find. You're right about The Hibernian Football Club Limited being the actual club.

Nothing of any great interest to report here. Maidencraig were incorporated in September 2008 to "streamline the ownership structure abve the group's principal trading company" which means that Maidencraig have taken the place of Halecrown Investments Ltd as the ultimate parent of the group.There are a number of reasons why this restructuring might have taken place, but my guess would be some sort of succession planning by STF. The club are the principal trading company (pretty much the only trading company in fact) but they are not affected in any way by this change.

One thing I noticed is that the preference shares were sold by Morston to Infocus Investments Ltd (which is another company within the Maidencraig group) for £1, so that liability doesn't appear in the group balance sheet. In fact there are no debts in the group balance sheet other than those owed by the club.

I wonder where Arseman got his £25m from.

[robinp]

Nothing of any great interest to report here. Maidencraig were incorporated in September 2008 to "streamline the ownership structure abve the group's principal trading company" which means that Maidencraig have taken the place of Halecrown Investments Ltd as the ultimate parent of the group.There are a number of reasons why this restructuring might have taken place, but my guess would be some sort of succession planning by STF. The club are the principal trading company (pretty much the only trading company in fact) but they are not affected in any way by this change.

One thing I noticed is that the preference shares were sold by Morston to Infocus Investments Ltd (which is another company within the Maidencraig group) for £1, so that liability doesn't appear in the group balance sheet. In fact there are no debts in the group balance sheet other than those owed by the club.

I wonder where Arseman got his £25m from.

Good stuff - pretty much what I assumed to be the case.

I did notice when reviewing the accounts of the club/holding company/group company that the total debt of the "group" tied into those of the other companies in the group and there was no HIDDEN £25million of debts!.

So Arseman is a bullshi77er...............or Sir Tom and Rod have *****ed £20million over the last 9 months on we don't know what getting the capital from we don't know where. :top marks

[PaulSmith]

More:

I just can't understand why this seems to have been swept under the carpet, and no one noticed?

The football club was debt free, now nearly £5m in debt, and getting worse. The holding company supposedly has (well) over £20m of debt, and getting worse.

Their overall financial situation may well be quite a bit worse than ours.

Surely some financial guru can confirm?

:greengrin

[Westie1875]

More:

I just can't understand why this seems to have been swept under the carpet, and no one noticed?

The football club was debt free, now nearly £5m in debt, and getting worse. The holding company supposedly has (well) over £20m of debt, and getting worse.

Their overall financial situation may well be quite a bit worse than ours.

Surely some financial guru can confirm?

:greengrin


Have a look again, it gets better :faf::faf:

[Kaiser1962]

We looked at the Hibs situation a number of years ago (just before the stadium reverted back to Hibs) and tried to put all the links together and the conclusion was that, in a nutshell, all assets and the football club were basically bomb proof. STF had such a network set up that even if someone(or some corporate body) decided to move for Hibs (and/or their assets) should STF be "indisposed" in one way or another it would take forever legally to put it all together and our conclusion was that it was set up this way to protect the football club. Sounds like he has moved it up another notch since then though.


Nothing of any great interest to report here. Maidencraig were incorporated in September 2008 to "streamline the ownership structure abve the group's principal trading company" which means that Maidencraig have taken the place of Halecrown Investments Ltd as the ultimate parent of the group.There are a number of reasons why this restructuring might have taken place, but my guess would be some sort of succession planning by STF. The club are the principal trading company (pretty much the only trading company in fact) but they are not affected in any way by this change.

One thing I noticed is that the preference shares were sold by Morston to Infocus Investments Ltd (which is another company within the Maidencraig group) for £1, so that liability doesn't appear in the group balance sheet. In fact there are no debts in the group balance sheet other than those owed by the club.

I wonder where Arseman got his £25m from.

[grunt]

... HFC don't own the ground or the training centre.But there is a small charge in the club's accounts for rental of land and buildings from HFC Holdings - £24k. Does this imply that Holdings owns some land of its own? What does HFC Holdings' balance sheet look like? It must have some assets besides its investment in the club, no?

[BEEJ]

More:

I just can't understand why this seems to have been swept under the carpet, and no one noticed?

The football club was debt free, now nearly £5m in debt, and getting worse. The holding company supposedly has (well) over £20m of debt, and getting worse.

Their overall financial situation may well be quite a bit worse than ours.

Surely some financial guru can confirm?

:greengrin
One can only feel the utmost pity for such an ill-informed, attention seeking fantasist. :crazy:

Bet he's going down a storm with a host of like-minded simpletons on JKB.

[Caversham Green]

But there is a small charge in the club's accounts for rental of land and buildings from HFC Holdings - £24k. Does this imply that Holdings owns some land of its own? What does HFC Holdings' balance sheet look like? It must have some assets besides its investment in the club, no?

HFC own the ticket office - valued in the 2009 accounts at £260,735. The only other fixed asset is the investment in the club - £4,106,992. There is no debt other than the preference shares and net asset value is £1,437,225. They did have a cash balance of £1,830,780 - I wonder if that might cover any shortfall in the east stand rebuild.

For the benefit of any yams looking in....There is no £25m debt anywhere in the group.

[grunt]

Thanks cg, helpful as ever. Without wishing to prolong this discussion unduly, I'd like to pose two further questions raised by your answer; you say they "did" have a cash balance of £1.8m - do you mean to imply that they no longer have that amount (all the other references in your post are in the present tense)? Secondly, any idea how the Holding Company came to have a large positive cash balance - did they sell something?

[grunt]

I stand by my view we should have went for a top notch club manager. Can I ask who you would have gone for? Edit - I looked around and I see you were suggesting Paul Jewell. Interesting choice - what is he doing at the moment? Apparently Barnsley.

[Caversham Green]

Thanks cg, helpful as ever. Without wishing to prolong this discussion unduly, I'd like to pose two further questions raised by your answer; you say they "did" have a cash balance of £1.8m - do you mean to imply that they no longer have that amount (all the other references in your post are in the present tense)? Secondly, any idea how the Holding Company came to have a large positive cash balance - did they sell something?

The accounts I'm looking at are to 31 July 2009 (the 2010 ones aren't available yet) so actually all my tenses should be past. They haven't sold anything so I'm guessing the cash balance has just built up from interest payments, loan repayments and the small amount of rent they charge the club (the balance at 2007 was £1.8m as well). I wouldn't like to speculate on what they intend to do with it, but I guess it's just being held as a reserve aganst the club's future cash needs.

[PaulSmith]

Have a look again, it gets better :faf::faf:

It is true that the debts due to rebuilding ****** road are not included on the football club's books. If you include them then the hobo's are in just as much debt as the rest of us.

See those mortgage payments that are described as debt with detailed repayment plans in the accounts just published, they really dinnae exist. Thank God for that, we've just wiped out £5.8m of mortgage debt! :greengrin

[Sammy7nil]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/hibs-fall-in-revenues-expose-fragility-of-scottish-football-1.1062138

thats the link to the story

[GloryGlory]

Nothing of any great interest to report here. Maidencraig were incorporated in September 2008 to "streamline the ownership structure abve the group's principal trading company" which means that Maidencraig have taken the place of Halecrown Investments Ltd as the ultimate parent of the group.There are a number of reasons why this restructuring might have taken place, but my guess would be some sort of succession planning by STF. The club are the principal trading company (pretty much the only trading company in fact) but they are not affected in any way by this change.

One thing I noticed is that the preference shares were sold by Morston to Infocus Investments Ltd (which is another company within the Maidencraig group) for £1, so that liability doesn't appear in the group balance sheet. In fact there are no debts in the group balance sheet other than those owed by the club.

I wonder where Arseman got his £25m from.

I think the clue's in the name. :wink:

[matty_f]

It is true that the debts due to rebuilding ****** road are not included on the football club's books. If you include them then the hobo's are in just as much debt as the rest of us.

See those mortgage payments that are described as debt with detailed repayment plans in the accounts just published, they really dinnae exist. Thank God for that, we've just wiped out £5.8m of mortgage debt! :greengrin

Don't try and bamboozle them with daft things like fact. Let them get stonners and have a wee fantasy about it, then when it does dawn on them how wrong they are they'll be left with damp trousers and feelings of deep disappointment and overwhelming inferiority, still holding their tiny, flacid members in their hands.

[jgl07]

I can't find this story anywhere - could it be the Herald have pulled it out of embarassment?!?!?
There was certainly nothing in the print edition other than a front page picture of Calderwood linking to the interview in the sports section.