Flower of Scotland

[hibsbollah]

Do you like it or not? I think its an embarrassing, awful dirge. Strangely though, lots of non-Scots I know think its great:confused:

Just wondered if I was in the minority.

Also, is there an alternative? I'd have no objection to Scotland the Brave.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Do you like it or not? I think its an embarrassing, awful dirge. Strangely though, lots of non-Scots I know think its great:confused:

Just wondered if I was in the minority.

Also, is there an alternative? I'd have no objection to Scotland the Brave.

I like it in it's original 60s format, where it is much more folky and sincere. It's interesting that Scotland the Brave is coming back into fashion though.

Flower of Scotland was originally seen as a rebellious, rootsy alternative to Scotland the Brave. STB was a product of Tin Pan Alley and was representative of the Brigadoon/White Heather Club approach to Scottish Culture.

FOS was very much a rebel song in the 70s, and when it was sung at Hampden it was a clear statement that the Scots wanted their own identity. These were the days when the only anthem played before internationals - even against England - was God Save the Queen.

It was an indication of the way Scotland was drifting, when the previously staid, Unionist crowd at Murrayfield took up the song in the late 80s. Ironic that it is FOS which is seen as anachronistic and cheesy now.

Some say it is racist. I think that it is nonsense, it is nationalistic telling the events that led to Scotland declaring itself a nation in it's own right. In that sense I can't see how it is any more racist than any other anthem such as the Marseilles or Deutchsland Uber Alles.

[hibsbollah]

I like it in it's original 60s format, where it is much more folky and sincere. It's interesting that Scotland the Brave is coming back into fashion though.

Flower of Scotland was originally seen as a rebellious, rootsy alternative to Scotland the Brave. STB was a product of Tin Pan Alley and was representative of the Brigadoon/White Heather Club approach to Scottish Culture.

FOS was very much a rebel song in the 70s, and when it was sung at Hampden it was a clear statement that the Scots wanted their own identity. These were the days when the only anthem played before internationals - even against England - was God Save the Queen.

It was an indication of the way Scotland was drifting, when the previously staid, Unionist crowd at Murrayfield took up the song in the late 80s. Ironic that it is FOS which is seen as anachronistic and cheesy now.

Some say it is racist. I think that it is nonsense, it is nationalistic telling the events that led to Scotland declaring itself a nation in it's own right. In that sense I can't see how it is any more racist than any other anthem such as the Marseilles or Deutchsland Uber Alles.

I'm old enough to remember the pre-match boos when God Save the queen was played. Whenever I'm unfortunate enough to hear GSTQ it reminds me of rainiy Hampden as a child:greengrin i agree FOS isnt 'racist', i just think its rubbish; lyrically, emotionally and tune-ally (not a word but it should be:greengrin).

Scots Whay-Hay.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm old enough to remember the pre-match boos when God Save the queen was played. Whenever I'm unfortunate enough to hear GSTQ it reminds me of rainiy Hampden as a child:greengrin i agree FOS isnt 'racist', i just think its rubbish; lyrically, emotionally and tune-ally (not a word but it should be:greengrin).

Scots Whay-Hay.

That one is probably the best choice. I suppose FOS would the equivalent of Australia playing Waltzing Matilda. The fact that everyone knows the words of a song means it is pretty simplistic.

Why don't we think out of the box though? Surely All You Need is Love or Agadoo could do a turn for us?

[Hibbyradge]

Why don't we think out of the box though? Surely All You Need is Love or Agadoo could do a turn for us?

That's actually not as daft as it should be.

The National anthem should be something the citizens like and want.

It doesn't have to have any particular political or cultural message and several countries, including Spain, have anthems with no words at all.

Thomas O'Higgins, a legislator from Ireland, speaking on their national anthem in 1933 said, "National Anthems come about, not because of the suitability of the particular words or notes, but because they are adopted generally by the nation.

That is exactly how the "Soldier's Song" became a National Anthem in this country. It happened to be the Anthem on the lips of the people when they came into their own and when the outsiders evacuated the country and left the insiders here to make the best or the worst of the country.

It was adopted by the people here before ever it was adopted by the Executive Council".

If "Agadoo" was held in special regard by Scottish people, then Agadoo would be appropriate. Fortunately, however, I think you're in a minority.

Loch Lomond on the other hand...

[Peevemor]

I'm sorry, but I have to do this every time this subject is brought up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wioh5qUj7fM

[heretoday]

It's a nice enough folk song but I'm very bored with it as an anthem.

That Caledonia song is okay. Give that a whirl.

[--------]

I'm old enough to remember the pre-match boos when God Save the queen was played. Whenever I'm unfortunate enough to hear GSTQ it reminds me of rainiy Hampden as a child:greengrin i agree FOS isnt 'racist', i just think its rubbish; lyrically, emotionally and tune-ally (not a word but it should be:greengrin).

Scots Whay-Hay.


Erm, it's "Scots wha hae wi Wallace bled...." :rolleyes:

Whenever I was at Hampden as a young man and the Betty-Windsor-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Lied got played, you couldn't hear it for whistling and booing.

(And I assure you I did my part in drowning the rubbish out.... :greengrin)

It's not a national anthem, anyway - it's a monarchist anthem dating from the last campaign in the Wars of Religion fought in the three kingdoms from the 1640's to the 1740's. It could actually be considered sectarian....

It has no relevance to me, though there are official occasions when I have to stand for it, which I do out of the same motives of courtesy to others that lead me to stand for any foreign anthem. Courtesy isn't the same as approval. If I hear it played on TV, however, I press the mute button.

I don't think we have a "national anthem" at present, since we don't have a national identity at present. We have the Betty-Windsor-Lied, "Flower of Scotland", "A man's a man for a that..." and "Caledonia" (my preferences at present) "Scotland the Brave", and "Scots wha hae..."

When we get our act together, we might finally decide which one's our real national anthem.

NOT the Betty-Windsor-Lied, though. NOT EVER.



But we're not the only ones with a problem here. Canada has two anthems, the Royal one, and the National one.

See which one you prefer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnzQF7JCF0o&feature=related

They also have this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOhk4Lk9aE&feature=related - which I think isn't very popular among younger folks. That dates from 1867.

"Oh Canada" is a great anthem, though, IMO. IIRC it was adopted as the national 'hymn' around 1970, to get rid of the monarchist overtones of "The Maple Leaf Forever".

I'm not sure what the Quebecois think of all this of course. They prefer this: http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=jdf9aqRk--0

I suppose it all depends on how one sees oneself as a Canadian or a Scot, which anthem/hymn/song one prefers.

[PeeJay]

In that sense I can't see how it is any more racist than any other anthem such as the Marseilles or Deutchsland Uber Alles.

"Deutschland über alles" was racist and is no longer sung by Germans as part of the national anthem (Das Deutschlandlied" - bad comparison on your part FR! Most Germans - except right-wing nutters and neo-Nazis would be most offended by your inference that this is their anthem.

God Save the Queen is IMO also racist, but then that particular verse is not sung either.

As to FOS - I like it as a folk song, but not as an anthem.

[lucky]

Why have any played before a football match? Let the fans sing and chant but anthems are out dated

[BroxburnHibee]

I don't mind FOS but here's a few other suggestions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMRno9BMstE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJGQ7_2g4E0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLXOWimMY8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm1BZnm-SIE&feature=related

[Peevemor]

I don't mind FOS but here's a few other suggestions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMRno9BMstE&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJGQ7_2g4E0&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLXOWimMY8&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm1BZnm-SIE&feature=related

Only the first these links works for me - unfortunately a tune I can't stand which was written by 2 Germans.

[--------]

Only the first these links works for me - unfortunately a tune I can't stand which was written by 2 Germans.


:agree: Highland Bloody Cathedral.

Cannae have a wedding, a funeral, a bar mitzvah, anything but somebody wants the organist to play Highland Bloody Cathedral!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[BroxburnHibee]

:agree: Highland Bloody Cathedral.

Cannae have a wedding, a funeral, a bar mitzvah, anything but somebody wants the organist to play Hoghland Bloody Cathedral!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

"Deutschland über alles" was racist and is no longer sung by Germans as part of the national anthem (Das Deutschlandlied" - bad comparison on your part FR! Most Germans - except right-wing nutters and neo-Nazis would be most offended by your inference that this is their anthem.

God Save the Queen is IMO also racist, but then that particular verse is not sung either.

As to FOS - I like it as a folk song, but not as an anthem.

Obviously a very poor comparison, no offence intended to the German people, whom I happen to like quite a bit. I had wanted to use the Dutch national anthem - all that stuff about William of Orange, our German king, but tbh I haven't really got a clue what I'm on about.

The Marseilles was an OK example though?

[Sir David Gray]

I don't particularly care for Flower of Scotland. It is all relating to battles against England that happened hundreds of years ago and I just don't think it is relevant to today.

People criticise Rangers and Celtic fans for singing about battles that happened over 300 years ago but Flower of Scotland mentions battles that are even older.

I think it's time for us to grow up a bit to be honest and get beyond the anti-English sentiment that a lot of people seem to cling on to and often revel in.

My vote would go to Highland Cathedral.

[barcahibs]

IMO flower of Scotland has suffered by becoming the unofficial national anthem. When heard sung in the right way and in the right context its a really nice song, it may even have drawn a wee tear from me in my younger days - though I mantain that it was just a really dusty room and there was something in my eye. I just find it really cringeworthy these days.
Isn't it really hard to play on bagpipes as well? That should surely be a prerequisite.

Since Murrayfield in 1990(?) when it seemed really appropriate to the national mood its appeal has gone downhill (IMO) and its constant trotting out at every occasion, especially by so called '90 minute patriots' means its starting to really grate on me. For many its become just a way to have a dig at the English. This may be fine as a national hobby (it isn't) but shouldn't be the sum total of our country.

Scotland the Brave is too tartan shortbread tin for me, we might as well wear a 'See you Jimmy' hat as we sing it (plus I can only ever remember the rude lyrics :greengrin) and so is Loch Lomond.
Scots Wha Hae would go the same way as Flower of Scotland, IMO we shouldn't keep defining ourselves by our ancient squabbles with England, I'd hope theres more to us than that.
A Man's a Man for A' That doesn't really say much about Scotland? If you're going to have an anthem you might as well make it nationalistic otherwise why bother?
Highland cathedral is a lovely tune but isn't Scottish.
Caledonia is a great song but doesn't really seem appropriate. If I had to choose one of these that would be it but it doesn't feel right to me somehow.

What else is there? There must be loads of appropriate old tunes that maybe just need some new words or more publicity. Like Hibbyradge says though, I suspect a manufactured anthem wouldn't work, it would have to be something that catches on by itself.

Oh and I agree with ditching God Save the Queen as the British anthem. If there's a more boring dirge out there than Flower of Scotland its GSTQ :yawn: Keep it for occassions where Betty is hanging around and needs to be bigged up and otherwise bin it IMO. Though then we'd need to replace it too and theres no way anyone would ever agree on that! I suggest "we hope its chips, its chips."

Maybe we just don't do nationalism very well in this country (and maybe thats a good thing in some ways). It was really interesting to watch the rescue of the Chilean miners, and the first thing everyone wanted to do when the last one came out was sing the national anthem. I just can't imagine British people doing something like that nowadays. Not knocking it by the way, clearly it means something to the Chileans and good on them, I'm just not sure its in our national culture to do the same. Or maybe we just haven't found the right song. Sunshine on Leith anyone? :greengrin



God Save the Queen is IMO also racist, but then that particular verse is not sung either.

As to FOS - I like it as a folk song, but not as an anthem.

Whats racist about GSTQ? A rotten tune yes, but racist??

[PeeJay]

Whats racist about GSTQ? A rotten tune yes, but racist??

"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,and like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the King"
Stupid example on my part considering my previous post to Filled Rolls - as I'm sure the British don't sing it anymore either - and no-body could possibly last five verses of the dirge anyway, surely?:greengrin

Apologies all round!

[Pretty Boy]

I don't like Flower of Scotland.

I find the lyrics cringeworthy and it just plays into the 'shortbread tin' mentality of a lot of 90 minute patriots/nationalists. The same could be said for Scotland the Brave, Loch Lomond, Highland cathedral etc etc.

I find the whole singing of anthems really outdated. A lot of them seem to me to be recalling a mythical golden age of heroic victories and simpler times. Being generally mystified by strong patriotism and nationalism it could well be that i'm missing the point and what i find embarassing may well bring another grown man to tears.

The way i look at it though is Scotland is a very fine country, it has contributed hugely to science and medicine, we have 2 thriving cities in Glasgow and Edinburgh, we have a huge ammount to offer tourists both in contemporary and historical attractions, we have a brilliant local music scene, some wonderful authors and so much more. Perhaps something that refelcted this modern Scotland would be more appropriate as an anthem than something that recalls battles for 'yer wee bit hill and glen' 700 years ago.

[Wilson]

I'd like for us to not grow up and believe that we should cling to, and revel in, anti-English sentiment.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't like Flower of Scotland.

I find the lyrics cringeworthy and it just plays into the 'shortbread tin' mentality of a lot of 90 minute patriots/nationalists. The same could be said for Scotland the Brave, Loch Lomond, Highland cathedral etc etc.

I find the whole singing of anthems really outdated. A lot of them seem to me to be recalling a mythical golden age of heroic victories and simpler times. Being generally mystified by strong patriotism and nationalism it could well be that i'm missing the point and what i find embarassing may well bring another grown man to tears.

The way i look at it though is Scotland is a very fine country, it has contributed hugely to science and medicine, we have 2 thriving cities in Glasgow and Edinburgh, we have a huge ammount to offer tourists both in contemporary and historical attractions, we have a brilliant local music scene, some wonderful authors and so much more. Perhaps something that refelcted this modern Scotland would be more appropriate as an anthem than something that recalls battles for 'yer wee bit hill and glen' 700 years ago.

I don't know how anyone could ever describe Glasgow as thriving, given the problems that poverty still inflicts on it. I believe Aberdeen does OK for itself though.

[NYHibby]

The Star-Spangled Banner is arguably anti-British. Try suggesting that we replace it ...

As a side note, every time I hear God Save the Queen I sing My Country 'Tis of Thee to myself. Got me into trouble once when I sang it a little too loud.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i think there is a campaign down south for the engerlish making jerusalem their national anthem(as they were singing at the commonwealth games), i must admit i've always thought that is a crackin poem/hymn/tune, why could it not have been 'in scotlands green and pleasant land' :boo hoo: as for the scottish anthem, at least the football fans have finally at least got it in sync nowadays(the murrayfield crowd always got it very good):agree: i've loved highland cathedral since way back in the days when not a lot of people had even heard of it, so what if it was a german that composed/wrote it :confused: can someone do a poll with all the different options so i can decide which would be a good one for us proud scots :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

i think there is a campaign down south for the engerlish making jerusalem their national anthem(as they were singing at the commonwealth games), i must admit i've always thought that is a crackin poem/hymn/tune, why could it not have been 'in scotlands green and pleasant land' :boo hoo: as for the scottish anthem, at least the football fans have finally at least got it in sync nowadays(the murrayfield crowd always got it very good):agree: i've loved highland cathedral since way back in the days when not a lot of people had even heard of it, so what if it was a german that composed/wrote it :confused: can someone do a poll with all the different options so i can decide which would be a good one for us proud scots :greengrin

Jerusalem has to be an anthem for a country that has totally lost its way. Think about the delusional content of it. Very apt for a nation that has a false take on its position in the world.

Dara O'Briain mentioned this in his book "Tickling the English", and I paraphrase here:

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green (be honest what do you think)
And was the holy lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen (no)

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills (again no)
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills (want to rethink this folks?)

[Leicester Fan]

I like Flower of Scotland and Jerusalem but given the choice I'd have God save the Queen as our national anthem anyday.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I like Flower of Scotland. Everybody knows it and it's well recognised across the world. Can't see any reason to change to be honest.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I like Flower of Scotland and Jerusalem but given the choice I'd have God save the Queen as our national anthem anyday.

Your opinion doesn't count though:greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

I like Flower of Scotland and Jerusalem but given the choice I'd have God save the Queen as our national anthem anyday.

Oh do you bloody think so.................:greengrin


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ

[Leicester Fan]

Oh do you bloody think so.................:greengrin


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ

:top marks You can't beat a bit of Billy.:greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

Xabi Alonso likes it, and that should be enough. From his twitter:

Atzo Hampden park-en ambiente izugarria!! 'Eskoziako lorea' himnoa hunkigarria benetan. Asko gozatu nuen. Zorte on Eskozia.

Hampden park atmosphere was fantastic!! And Flower of Scotland really emotional anthem. Really enjoyed it!! Good luck Scotland..


Jerusalem has to be an anthem for a country that has totally lost its way. Think about the delusional content of it. Very apt for a nation that has a false take on its position in the world.

Dara O'Briain mentioned this in his book "Tickling the English", and I paraphrase here:

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green (be honest what do you think)
And was the holy lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen (no)

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills (again no)
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills (want to rethink this folks?)


It seems like Dara O Briain, like the vast majority of people, fundamentally misunderstands the poem.

[--------]

Xabi Alonso likes it, and that should be enough. From his twitter:

Atzo Hampden park-en ambiente izugarria!! 'Eskoziako lorea' himnoa hunkigarria benetan. Asko gozatu nuen. Zorte on Eskozia.

Hampden park atmosphere was fantastic!! And Flower of Scotland really emotional anthem. Really enjoyed it!! Good luck Scotland..



It seems like Dara O Briain, like the vast majority of people, fundamentally misunderstands the poem.

You mean, as written by William Blake? :cool2:

Totally agree. Not convinced even Blake knew what he meant, him being a visionary and a Swedenborgian and all that....

[Greentinted]

It seems like Dara O Briain, like the vast majority of people, fundamentally misunderstands the poem.

Not necessarily if invoking the New Critics or post-structuralist dismissal of authorial intent. The interpretation of a poem (or any piece of literary art) is in the custody of the reader and detached from its author who merely 'gives birth' to the poem...or something!

And FWIW I like FoS, always a guid tune to belt oot when yer a wee bit steamin' :greengrin

[LiverpoolHibs]

Not necessarily if invoking the New Critics or post-structuralist dismissal of authorial intent. The interpretation of a poem (or any piece of literary art) is in the custody of the reader and detached from its author who merely 'gives birth' to the poem...or something!

Haha, who'd have thought a thread about Flower of Scotland could make its way onto Roland Barthes in a mere 32 posts!

[Greentinted]

Haha, who'd have thought a thread about Flower of Scotland could make its way onto Roland Barthes in a mere 32 posts!

Thats why this board shoud be required reading for all - something for everyone. And the above post was responsible for a real-life LOL. :thumbsup:

[Phil D. Rolls]

It seems like Dara O Briain, like the vast majority of people, fundamentally misunderstands the poem.

Right, but I'm sure you understand it completely LH. :greengrin

Surely if the vast majority of people don't get what the song is about, it isn't a good choice for an anthem?

[--------]

Haha, who'd have thought a thread about Flower of Scotland could make its way onto Roland Barthes in a mere 32 posts!

French goalie who played for Man Utd? :cool2:


:wink:

[LiverpoolHibs]

Right, but I'm sure you understand it completely LH. :greengrin

Surely if the vast majority of people don't get what the song is about, it isn't a good choice for an anthem?

Naw, just better than O Briain. :wink:

You're probably right, the problem is that the music (as good as it is) doesn't fit the tone of the poem at all.


French goalie who played for Man Utd? :cool2:


:wink:

That's the lad. Dabbled in semiotics in between matches.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Freedom Come All Ye is great. You should have that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl7MYTTHUFg&feature=related