When Does Their WWI Celebrations Start?

[Sergey]

Can't be too far in the offing until they're trotting out their poppies and commemorative kitsch.

[Hiber-nation]

Who cares?

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

We have to watch what we say about WW1, I'm sure we all lost family somewhere down the line and it was a horrendous conflict and would never disrespect it but yes according to the pink fannies they won it with the full yam team that went

:blah::blah::blah:

:violin:

:tee hee::tee hee::tee hee:

[hibsdaft]

good for them remembering their history.

i cringe when i see folk on here criticising them for it.

[Wembley67]

Pretty stupid thread to start is it not?

[Pete70]

It's a bit harsh having a go at H****s for wearing poppies when Hibs have worn them on their shirts the past few years.

Daft thread

[Dashing Bob S]

I really wish people who start such threads would stop and think about the consequences of their actions.

Countless Jambos of around 400,000 gave their lives so that we could indulge in basic freedoms like McDonald's consumption, peg-selling and tarmac driving. When we sit in our large municipal public housing developments enjoying the benefits of a multi-cultural participative democracy, we should spare a thought to those who ingested asbestos for generations and give thanks that such horrors are consigned to the history books.

[col02]

I would assume their memorial towards WWI will start around the time most other decent people in the UK take a moment or two to reflect on the lives given up in the first World war. There are some really petty threads started with regards to having digs at Hearts but this is up there as one of the worst imho!

[Wembley67]

I would assume their memorial towards WWI will start around the time most other decent people in the UK take a moment or two to reflect on the lives given up in the first World war. There are some really petty threads started with regards to having digs at Hearts but this is up there as one of the worst imho!

Sums of the op.

[WindyMiller]

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/80395-remembrance-sunday-lunch/

[Removed]

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/80395-remembrance-sunday-lunch/

So what :confused:

[Jim44]

I don't think this thread has any valid place on a football forum and the subject matter means lots of different things to different people. In the interests of good taste maybe it should quietly disappear. :dunno:

[monktonharp]

good for them remembering their history.

i cringe when i see folk on here criticising them for it.:yawn: it's all about opinions,and imho the usual suspects related to all things Yammish,will be along here soon,to retain the moral high ground and remind us of the huge sacrifice made by homofc to give us the freedom that we enjoy now,no mention of course of the monumental disastrous butchery of Millions of young men,who were accused of cowardice if they even thought about not going "over the top" before being mowed down on a daily basis.

[Dashing Bob S]

I would assume their memorial towards WWI will start around the time most other decent people in the UK take a moment or two to reflect on the lives given up in the first World war. There are some really petty threads started with regards to having digs at Hearts but this is up there as one of the worst imho!

I think it's a great idea to celebrate being cannon fodder for the benefit of imperialism. It would be great to do something for suicide bombers while were at it.

This debate rages every year and like a lot if other netters I'm bored with it and see the whole thing as a joke now. But as long as pious, pompous knee-jerk garbage like this gets posted I'll argue my corner against it.

I hate the sanctimonious and forlock tugging guff that these commemerations are based upon and the fact that their depoliticiesed and royal family fawning nature invariably condemns us into making the same mistakes over again.

Next time we see a member of the royal family or captain of industry laying a wreath at the cenotaph we would all do well to remember that our blood relatives died pissing, ****ing and terrorized in a ditch in order there's could live in even greater luxury than they already had.

So that smug, jumped-up insitution that is HMFC can take their serville tosh and stick it where the rest of those bloodied turds originate from.

[Littlest Hobo]

Bit harsh but I sort of see were yer coming from! Ye would have thougt that the Hearts players who fought won the war single handed!:rolleyes:

I ****in hate Hearts!:grr:

[brianmc]

Yep,you're definitely missing something

[monktonharp]

I must be missing something here....But I wasn't aware that the sacrifices made by our soldiers were all soldiers with some kind of exclusive connection to Hearts?let me reassure you,snd tell you that those soldiers were definately not exclusively connected to them,I am definately correct about that!

[lapsedhibee]

But I wasn't aware that the sacrifices made by our soldiers were all soldiers with some kind of exclusive connection to Hearts?

:tsk tsk: You're possibly thinking of WW2, where soldiers from all over the world joined forces to defeat the Axis powers.

[heretoday]

The whole poppy thing has become very undignified now. It's a chance for the media to get some tears on the box. And a chance for the government too to link in their insane wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I recall in the sixties being taken to Remembrance Sunday and there were people in winter coats standing about in silence. A woman might wipe away a tear.

These were people who had actually fought in WW1 and WW2.

It was over fairly briefly. No need to wear a poppy for longer than was seemly.

[deeks01]

I think it's a great idea to celebrate being cannon fodder for the benefit of imperialism. It would be great to do something for suicide bombers while were at it.

This debate rages every year and like a lot if other netters I'm bored with it and see the whole thing as a joke now. But as long as pious, pompous knee-jerk garbage like this gets posted I'll argue my corner against it.

I hate the sanctimonious and forlock tugging guff that these commemerations are based upon and the fact that their depoliticiesed and royal family fawning nature invariably condemns us into making the same mistakes over again.

Next time we see a member of the royal family or captain of industry laying a wreath at the cenotaph we would all do well to remember that our blood relatives died pissing, ****ing and terrorized in a ditch in order there's could live in even greater luxury than they already had.

So that smug, jumped-up insitution that is HMFC can take their serville tosh and stick it where the rest of those bloodied turds originate from.

yes you're right of course , just because the royal family are twats means we shouldn't remember those who fell fighting to protect their families back home and their own future descendants. Namely , all of us. FFS throw football rivalry out the window here its about taking a moment to remind ourselves of the harsh brutalities of ALL wars and conflicts that destroys people , ruins lives and tears families apart. If homofc , much as i hate them and despise their deluded followers , wish to remember ex-players who fought and died for this country then so be it. The least these men , jambo or not , deserve is remembrance.

Some things are bigger than football rivalry and some people need to grow up and respect those who paid the ultimate price to protect their future , if they seen this level of petty disrespect I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered their *****! DISGUSTING!!!

Show some respect.

GGTTH and **** the hertz! ;)

[lapsedhibee]

So in terms of the UK and WW one..? What have Hearts got to do with things more than anyone else in the UK?

Hearts gave up the league title, which they would have won in 1915, so that half of their first team could join up to McCrae's battalion instead. A small section of the current Hearts support, unable to come to terms with future tragic losses in 1965 and 1986, have latched on to this act as somehow emblematic of the club as a whole and celebrate it annually. This latching on, and consequent proprietorial attitude to war sacrifice, including adopting such stances as moral outrage when (for example) commemorative statues are resited, makes some others of us uncomfortable to the extent of giving us the dry boak.



Some things are bigger than football rivalry and some people need to grow up and respect those who paid the ultimate price to protect their future , if they seen this level of petty disrespect I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered their *****! DISGUSTING!!!

Show some respect.

You're showing a stonking level of disrespect there yourself by presuming on no grounds whatsoever that you have even the slightest idea what might be in the minds of those volunteers signing up for service in WW1.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the greatest disrespect for the war dead is the outpouring of empty sentiment, and token admiration for them, displayed by the less thinking Yams.

What we see is mourning X-Factor style. Many Hearts fans remembered the war in a dignified and thoughtful way for decades. People who went through it knew what the sacrifices were, there was none of this bull rhetoric, and t-shirts.


You're showing a stonking level of disrespect there yourself by presuming on no grounds whatsoever that you have even the slightest idea what might be in the minds of those volunteers signing up for service in WW1.

:agree: I'm all for people putting their opinions across, providing they can show the slightest hint they know what they are talking about.

[Betty Boop]

I think the greatest disrespect for the war dead is the outpouring of empty sentiment, and token admiration for them, displayed by the less thinking Yams.

What we see is mourning X-Factor style. Many Hearts fans remembered the war in a dignified and thoughtful way for decades. People who went through it knew what the sacrifices were, there was none of this bull rhetoric, and t-shirts.

What about the 'muriel' ? (as Hilda Ogden used to say)

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn56/Munchkinsmunchkin/Erskine.jpg

[Phil D. Rolls]

yes you're right of course , just because the royal family are twats means we shouldn't remember those who fell fighting to protect their families back home and their own future descendants. Namely , all of us. FFS throw football rivalry out the window here its about taking a moment to remind ourselves of the harsh brutalities of ALL wars and conflicts that destroys people , ruins lives and tears families apart. If homofc , much as i hate them and despise their deluded followers , wish to remember ex-players who fought and died for this country then so be it. The least these men , jambo or not , deserve is remembrance.

Some things are bigger than football rivalry and some people need to grow up and respect those who paid the ultimate price to protect their future , if they seen this level of petty disrespect I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered their *****! DISGUSTING!!!

Show some respect.

GGTTH and **** the hertz! ;)

Yes I think we should all grow up and show respect. They fought so that we could live in a dignified, democratic society where people respected others' views.

What I could do without though, is some dewy eyed romantic standing on a soap box, splurting the same nonsense that comes out of the NOTW and the Sun. The same nonsense that was used to send men to their graves, not in support of democracy but in support of the capitalist concerns like Krups and White Circle cement amongst others who got rich on others' misery.

The best thing to do before you start telling other people how to think is to think yourself. There are lots of books and even TV shows that will help you understand that there is a lot more to war than honour. In fact honour is the biggest lie of all.

Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patrii Mori.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What about the 'muriel' ? (as Hilda Ogden used to say)

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn56/Munchkinsmunchkin/Erskine.jpg

That was ill thought out, and if that is the route the Hearts fans want to go down, they are even thicker than I thought.

Erskine are an organisation I have mixed feelings about, having worked with some veterans who have benefited from their "care".

On a general note, this topic comes up every year. I was slaughtered both here and over the road in 2005, for suggesting that if the Hearts fans kept going the way they were they would end up causing a huge rift on an issue everyone shared a consensus on.

The point I was making was that silly boys with no real concept of what war is about - other than playing Medal of Honour on their XBoxes - were making the remembrance into a populist event.

Every year we are accused of disrespecting the fallen, when it is them who blow the whole thing out of proportion. To them it's a t-shirt, a commemorative scarf, a slap in the face to everyone else.

For over 80 years after the war it was remembered with dignity and given the respect it deserved from the rest of our community. Then Hearts, eager for something to set them apart, something to make them special, started this tawdry and disrespectful behaviour.

I wish there were links to previous debtates on this matter. It would probably save a whole lot of upset and unnecessary arguing.

[EskbankHibby]

That was ill thought out, and if that is the route the Hearts fans want to go down, they are even thicker than I thought.

Erskine are an organisation I have mixed feelings about, having worked with some veterans who have benefited from their "care".

On a general note, this topic comes up every year. I was slaughtered both here and over the road in 2005, for suggesting that if the Hearts fans kept going the way they were they would end up causing a huge rift on an issue everyone shared a consensus on.

The point I was making was that silly boys with no real concept of what war is about - other than playing Medal of Honour on their XBoxes - were making the remembrance into a populist event.

Every year we are accused of disrespecting the fallen, when it is them who blow the whole thing out of proportion. To them it's a t-shirt, a commemorative scarf, a slap in the face to everyone else.

For over 80 years after the war it was remembered with dignity and given the respect it deserved from the rest of our community. Then Hearts, eager for something to set them apart, something to make them special, started this tawdry and disrespectful behaviour.

I wish there were links to previous debtates on this matter. It would probably save a whole lot of upset and unnecessary arguing.

:agree:, it will happen again this year, the faux-outrage when a newsreader is spotted on telly a week before remembrance Sunday not wearing a poppy. Remembrance has to be overt apparently which is frankly sickening.

What got me last year was their club captain Mikey Stewart saying on their official website that a victory over Hibs in the derby nearest remembrance Sunday would be "all the more poignant", i mean WTF? Talk about belittling sacrifice.

[Dinkydoo]

FFS, some of the comments on this forum are removed disgusting at the moment.

[EH6 Hibby]

I don't get all the moral outrage on this thread, I cannot see one person who is disrespecting the memory of those who died in WW1, it's a bit of fun ripping Hearts fans that use this event every year to try and point score against other teams. It might not be to everyone's taste, but seriously there is no need for some of the comments.

All IMO of course.

[George Clooney]

Respect to the OP for this marvellous thread.

It makes a change from his usual drivel about the Lithuanian economy after all.

[khib70]

FFS, some of the comments on this forum are removed disgusting at the moment.
Don't blame you for whatever language you used. Some contributions to this thread are an absolute disgrace.

As an ex-serviceman, it boils my blood to listen to sanctimonious "liberals" who would soil themselves if a party popper went off in their vicinity knocking the annual act of remembrance to score derby points against the yams.

You have the right to spout your sloganising Guardianista bollox from the warmth and safety of your keyboards because millions laid down their lives to defend it. If you don't feel you want to show them any respect, then FFS shut up and enjoy what they sacrificed so much to allow you. :bye:

[lapsedhibee]

You have the right to spout your sloganising Guardianista bollox from the warmth and safety of your keyboards because millions laid down their lives to defend it. If you don't feel you want to show them any respect, then FFS shut up and enjoy what they sacrificed so much to allow you. :bye:

The soldiers and civilians, of all nationalities, who lost their lives in WWI did so in order that their descendants could participate in hibs.net - is that what you're saying? If so, what an absolutely bizarre claim.

Incidentally, I don't know what Guardianista means. Could you give an example taken from this thread?

[Wembley67]

The soldiers and civilians, of all nationalities, who lost their lives in WWI did so in order that their descendants could participate in hibs.net - is that what you're saying? If so, what an absolutely bizarre claim.

Incidentally, I don't know what Guardianista means. Could you give an example taken from this thread?

Lost me with that one LH :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

Lost me with that one LH :confused:

Nah, it's me that's lost. Every year there's a thread ripping the yams for that particular element in their support that goes OTT about Remembrance, and every year there's a number of .netters who wade in with much outrage but without apparently having read, or understood the point of, the thread.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Don't blame you for whatever language you used. Some contributions to this thread are an absolute disgrace.

As an ex-serviceman, it boils my blood to listen to sanctimonious "liberals" who would soil themselves if a party popper went off in their vicinity knocking the annual act of remembrance to score derby points against the yams.

You have the right to spout your sloganising Guardianista bollox from the warmth and safety of your keyboards because millions laid down their lives to defend it. If you don't feel you want to show them any respect, then FFS shut up and enjoy what they sacrificed so much to allow you. :bye:

With the greatest respect, I have to disagree with the thrust of your argument. You claim to represent people who fought for freedom, yet you have no problem on dismissing the views of others as "Guardanista bollox". A bit of a contradiction as far as I can see.

So basically we have been given the freedom to agree with what we are told is right. Some liberty that.

Whilst I respect your individual viewpoint, I don't see what qualifies you to speak for everyone who was ever in the forces. I know ex servicemen who hold different views.

At the end of the day, no one on here has said there shouldn't be a remembrance service at Haymarket or anywhere else. What people are objecting to is the way that some people at Hearts are abusing the memory of all the fallen.

[khib70]

With the greatest respect, I have to disagree with the thrust of your argument. You claim to represent people who fought for freedom, yet you have no problem on dismissing the views of others as "Guardanista bollox". A bit of a contradiction as far as I can see.

So basically we have been given the freedom to agree with what we are told is right. Some liberty that.

Whilst I respect your individual viewpoint, I don't see what qualifies you to speak for everyone who was ever in the forces. I know ex servicemen who hold different views.

At the end of the day, no one on here has said there shouldn't be a remembrance service at Haymarket or anywhere else. What people are objecting to is the way that some people at Hearts are abusing the memory of all the fallen.
Sorry FR, but at no point did I claim to represent anyone or anything but myself. That was my (admittedly a bit overwrought) personal reaction to people who never seem to miss a chance to have a go at acts of remembrance. Nor did I ever claim to speak for everyone who was in the forces. Again, my reaction was personal, as was my description of the views of others.

And I don't have any time for the yams who attempt to hijack the occasion, any more than I have for those erchies across the water who believe the Battle of the Somme was fought exclusively by sash-wearing Orangemen in full regalia.

[Disc O'Dave]

In keeping with the OP aim of the thread....I know of one person who is a prominent Yam supporter who has had the "poppy on your profile picture Facebook app" for about a week.

I spotted last year some fans coming back from the "poignant" derby with special scarves with poppies on them, and t-shirts with poppy designs too.

I'm sure the millions who died in the wars didn't do it for tacky merchandising opportunities for Hearts.

Wear a poppy on your lapel like everyone else - don't disgrace the memory of ALL those who died by turning it into a badge of honour, that can only be worn by Jambos. The underlying implication that Hibernian are somehow less heroic, less patriotic, and less worthy is nauseating.

Rant over.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry FR, but at no point did I claim to represent anyone or anything but myself. That was my (admittedly a bit overwrought) personal reaction to people who never seem to miss a chance to have a go at acts of remembrance. Nor did I ever claim to speak for everyone who was in the forces. Again, my reaction was personal, as was my description of the views of others.

And I don't have any time for the yams who attempt to hijack the occasion, any more than I have for those erchies across the water who believe the Battle of the Somme was fought exclusively by sash-wearing Orangemen in full regalia.

Thanks for that, emotions always run high on this issue, it's good of you to take the time to explain what you meant. I feel most sorry for the genuine guys who have upheld the Haymarket tradition for years, only to see their event gradually being the subject of tawdry inter club rivalry.

However, I accept that is their issue and not mine. From where I sit, all the dead should be remembered in a respectful, dignified way.

[haagsehibby]

Yes I think we should all grow up and show respect. They fought so that we could live in a dignified, democratic society where people respected others' views.

What I could do without though, is some dewy eyed romantic standing on a soap box, splurting the same nonsense that comes out of the NOTW and the Sun. The same nonsense that was used to send men to their graves, not in support of democracy but in support of the capitalist concerns like Krups and White Circle cement amongst others who got rich on others' misery.

The best thing to do before you start telling other people how to think is to think yourself. There are lots of books and even TV shows that will help you understand that there is a lot more to war than honour. In fact honour is the biggest lie of all.

Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patrii Mori.

The great lie as Wilfred Owen described it.

[Giant_Midget]

Can't be too far in the offing until they're trotting out their poppies and commemorative kitsch.That is a bit off mate, infact not even just a bit.

:bitchy:

[Disc O'Dave]

That is a bit off mate, infact not even just a bit.

:bitchy:

So are you comfortable with Hearts Scarves with special "Poppy" editions? Or Hearts T-shirts that are just a big picture of a Poppy? Don't you see why that might offend the 99.99999% of those who died in the Great War that weren't connected to Hearts FC?

In fact it's probably an insult to the sizable proportion of McCraes Battallion who alo had no connection to Hearts FC

No one should decry the wearing of poppies, as per the rest of the population.....it's the HMFC branding of the poppy some people have an objection to.

[haagsehibby]

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Sorry, I got it wrong "the old lie". This poem by Wilfred Owen describes the real horror of trench warfare.

[lapsedhibee]

DULCE ET DECORUM EST


Good poem, but nothing to do with the thread!

[deeks01]

Hearts gave up the league title, which they would have won in 1915, so that half of their first team could join up to McCrae's battalion instead. A small section of the current Hearts support, unable to come to terms with future tragic losses in 1965 and 1986, have latched on to this act as somehow emblematic of the club as a whole and celebrate it annually. This latching on, and consequent proprietorial attitude to war sacrifice, including adopting such stances as moral outrage when (for example) commemorative statues are resited, makes some others of us uncomfortable to the extent of giving us the dry boak.


You're showing a stonking level of disrespect there yourself by presuming on no grounds whatsoever that you have even the slightest idea what might be in the minds of those volunteers signing up for service in WW1.

presuming? yes. , on no grounds whatsoever? now whos presuming?

[lapsedhibee]

presuming? yes. , on no grounds whatsoever? now whos presuming?

Ok, if you have some special reason to believe that someone who fought in WWI "wouldn't have bothered" if he'd known that a century later rival football fans on an internet forum would have disagreed about the style in which the event was commemorated, please do share. I only had one relative who was at the Somme and he would never speak about that war at all - either his experience of it or his reasons for being part of it. I'm genuinely all ears.

[deeks01]

Yes I think we should all grow up and show respect. They fought so that we could live in a dignified, democratic society where people respected others' views.

What I could do without though, is some dewy eyed romantic standing on a soap box, splurting the same nonsense that comes out of the NOTW and the Sun. The same nonsense that was used to send men to their graves, not in support of democracy but in support of the capitalist concerns like Krups and White Circle cement amongst others who got rich on others' misery.

The best thing to do before you start telling other people how to think is to think yourself. There are lots of books and even TV shows that will help you understand that there is a lot more to war than honour. In fact honour is the biggest lie of all.

Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patrii Mori.

to be honest i can't argue that , I may have came across a bit strong as i misunderstood the thread and thought it to be a 'v' sign at servicemen of ww1 , and believe me I'm a lot more well read on this issue than i have made myself appear by failing to engage my brain before posting. ps- yes i do know that "glory" in war is pretty much a lord of the rings fantasy , this was not my point , i basicaly wanted to put across the point that yam or no yam all those who have died in conflict deserve respect.

sorry for any offence caused by my rant everybody.

[deeks01]

Ok, if you have some special reason to believe that someone who fought in WWI "wouldn't have bothered" if he'd known that a century later rival football fans on an internet forum would have disagreed about the style in which the event was commemorated, please do share. I only had one relative who was at the Somme and he would never speak about that war at all - either his experience of it or his reasons for being part of it. I'm genuinely all ears.

see post above , I'm done on this issue.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So are you comfortable with Hearts Scarves with special "Poppy" editions? Or Hearts T-shirts that are just a big picture of a Poppy? Don't you see why that might offend the 99.99999% of those who died in the Great War that weren't connected to Hearts FC?

In fact it's probably an insult to the sizable proportion of McCraes Battallion who alo had no connection to Hearts FC

No one should decry the wearing of poppies, as per the rest of the population.....it's the HMFC branding of the poppy some people have an objection to.

The way I see it, these guys went to war for Britain, not for Hearts. It is touching that the football club has never forgotten it's employees, but what is sad is that some elements of their support seem to think that their's is a unique case. There were plenty of pals battallions.


Good poem, but nothing to do with the thread!

I'd disagree, my criticism of the stupider jambos is that they see the whole thing in a "Boys Own Paper" way. Many of them praise heroism without having a scooby what that means. I feel Owen was saying that to call war glorious was a foolish thing to do, and I feel that some of the Hearts fans are glorying in it - albeit in that 21st Century grief culture way.


to be honest i can't argue that , I may have came across a bit strong as i misunderstood the thread and thought it to be a 'v' sign at servicemen of ww1 , and believe me I'm a lot more well read on this issue than i have made myself appear by failing to engage my brain before posting. ps- yes i do know that "glory" in war is pretty much a lord of the rings fantasy , this was not my point , i basicaly wanted to put across the point that yam or no yam all those who have died in conflict deserve respect.

sorry for any offence caused by my rant everybody.

:top marks Well done mate, as someone who frequently types before I think, and ends up aplogising, I appreciate your honesty. Sorry, if I offended you with my ill tempered rebuttal.

[lapsedhibee]

my criticism of the stupider jambos is that they see the whole thing in a "Boys Own Paper" way. Many of them praise heroism without having a scooby what that means. I feel Owen was saying that to call war glorious was a foolish thing to do, and I feel that some of the Hearts fans are glorying in it - albeit in that 21st Century grief culture way.


Can't say as I've really noticed that, other than what they've picked up from the attitudes of the time - if existing documentary footage is representative, many people who signed up did look on WWI as a BOP adventure, which would all be over by Christmas (and hence they shouldn't delay enlisting lest they miss out). Hard, very hard, to know exactly how widespread that attitude might have been.

Any thread about Remembrance on weteachunder21showtocheat.co.uk will contain references to the yams' "unique history" or "special relationship" with WWI, which is objectionable in itself, irrespective of whether the stupider yams see armed conflict as a potential BOP adventure, imho.

[Mibbes Aye]

Good poem, but nothing to do with the thread!

Strangely enough, Wilfred Owen taught at Tynecastle High when he was recuperating at Craiglockhart Hospital before returning to the frontline. FACT :greengrin

Getting back to the thread however, there seems to be a certain amount of conflation that is becoming commonplace round these matters.

IMHO:

Some people on here will gladly mock, ridicule or take offence at what is seen as Homfc or Homfc elements using the pals' battalion stuff to somehow appear more noble and dignified than they actually are.

That's not the same as mocking or ridiculing people who died in the wars. Nor is it the same as mocking those who choose to 'remember' for less crass reasons.

Some people on here genuinely object to the ways and manner, official and otherwise, in which we mark the deaths caused by the wars, especially WW1, as these commemorations may underplay what can be interpeted as a wanton and needless exploitation and slaughter of working people in the name of some lofty concepts.

Again, that's not the same as mocking or ridiculing people who died in the wars. Nor is it the same as mocking those who choose to 'remember' for less crass reasons.

Finally, 'freedom' means just that, doesn't it? That includes the freedom even for someone to pour scorn on other people who may have died supposedly to preserve that freedom. It might be unsavoury, but if you only want to defend a self-defined version of 'freedom', rather than a warts and all edition, then it's not really freedom, is it? (cue new debate :greengrin)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Strangely enough, Wilfred Owen taught at Tynecastle High when he was recuperating at Craiglockhart Hospital before returning to the frontline. FACT :greengrin

(cue new debate :greengrin)

Anybody wanting an insight into the undercurrents of WW1 could do worse than read the Regeneration Trilogy by Pat Barker. Owen and Sassoon feature in a hugely absorbing read that touches on issues such as: morality, sanity and pacifism.

Sassoon's refusal to return to the front until the objectives of the war were explained to him led to him being labelled insane. Of course the real insanity was fighting without knowing why.

Strangely a book so focussed on the human cost and profit of the war, set in Edinburgh, fails to make any mention of HOMOFC's single handed assault on the dirty hun. Surely amidst the slaughter of millions there can be no greater tragedy than Celtic winning the league, whilst Johnny Yam was fighting the Jerries?

(will this do :greengrin:)

[Dashing Bob S]

I think it probably has got out of hand that its become an Edinburgh football rivalry thing.

An element of the Yams support have attempted to cynically appropriate this to give vent to their ludicrous deluded supremacist beliefs that they are racially pure Scottish/British master race (yes, it is inherently silly) who single-handedly won both wars through acts of selfless heroism, while are some state-sponging gypos who were massing fortunes in the lucrative peg and tarmacking industries while those heroes were being ripped apart by German shrapnel.

Some Hibbies have countered by mocking and ridiculing the legitimate Yam remembrances, although, as FR says, the Yams have done that more themselves with their extraordinarily stupid behaviour on this issue.

However, we all have a personal take on this issue, and this is mine: as someone who lost direct decendants in that evil farce that was WW1, I 'commemorate' this event not with solemn dignity but with extreme and rage. The forlock-tugging, poker-arsed, pompous Daily Mail brigade of the ex-servicemen can go **** themselves if they have a problem with that. They don't speak for everybody who lost family members in that fiasco, and they certainly don't speak for me.

[--------]

I think it probably has got out of hand that its become an Edinburgh football rivalry thing.

An element of the Yams support have attempted to cynically appropriate this to give vent to their ludicrous deluded supremacist beliefs that they are racially pure Scottish/British master race (yes, it is inherently silly) who single-handedly won both wars through acts of selfless heroism, while are some state-sponging gypos who were massing fortunes in the lucrative peg and tarmacking industries while those heroes were being ripped apart by German shrapnel.

Some Hibbies have countered by mocking and ridiculing the legitimate Yam remembrances, although, as FR says, the Yams have done that more themselves with their extraordinarily stupid behaviour on this issue.

However, we all have a personal take on this issue, and this is mine: as someone who lost direct decendants in that evil farce that was WW1, I 'commemorate' this event not with solemn dignity but with extreme and rage. The forlock-tugging, poker-arsed, pompous Daily Mail brigade of the ex-servicemen can go **** themselves if they have a problem with that. They don't speak for everybody who lost family members in that fiasco, and they certainly don't speak for me.


:agree: :applause:

[--------]

DULCE ET DECORUM EST






Good poem, but nothing to do with the thread!




Well, actually, it's a lot to do with the thread, but that's already been pointed out.

I reckon George Patton put it better, myself - "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other ******* die for his."

[lapsedhibee]

Well, actually, it's a lot to do with the thread, but that's already been pointed out.

Here was me thinking the OP was about the yams, rather than war.

[--------]

Here was me thinking the OP was about the yams, rather than war.


The Yams' attitude to the war that that poem was written about? :cool2:

Heart of Midlothian are apparently prepared to use Remembrance to boost sales of club merchandise.

(Unless, of course, all profits from sales of Poppy-related items are passed on to Poppy Scotland? But then, given their innovative and somewhat unconventional approach to book-keeping, how will we ever know?)

This is despicable, but fully in keeping with the general practices of the present regime at Tynecastle.

The rank-and-file Jambo, however, has adopted the attitude (sorry, that should be RANK-and-VILE, I think) that because of the peculiar circumstances in which one particular "Pals" Battalion of Kitchener's New Army was mustered in 1914-15, somehow their football club has been canonised as the very epitome of glorious British manhood and heroism. While in what passes for their sorry minds, Hibernian have been demonised as a bunch of lazy call-up-dodging Fenian low-lifes.

McCrae's was ONE of dozens of local "Pals" Battalions raised during the first 18 months of the Great War, and was in no way different in quality, courage or sacrifice. McCrae's was the 16th Battalion Royal Scots - which should tell even the thickest Yam that there were a lot of other Royal Scots battalions before and alongside them in the fighting. Including the 7th Battalion T.A. (Leith and Lothians) who were in existence and on the way to Gallipoli a year before the Somme. That's the Gretna battalion. McCrae's deserves repspect and honour and remembrance, but no more nor less than any other battalion who fought on the Somme, and no more than any other battalion/regiment/ship's company/aircrew who fought and did their duty in the wars of the 20th century.

Those of us with long-term Leith connections and relations who died in the Great War (including some who were killed or badly injured at Gretna) don't like the nasty way the Yams try to appropriate the glory, especially when there really isn't a lot of glory involved.

As Shakespeare so truly said, "I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle..."

I mourn them all, respect them all, and honour their loss. I'm well aware that there but for the grace of God might I myself have been. Owen's poem rather sums up a wee bit of that.

[lapsedhibee]

The Yams' attitude to the war that that poem was written about? :cool2:

I never noticed that they even had an attitude to that or any other war, other than that they have a special relationship with it because of their unique history. Their attitude seems to be about themselves rather than any war, or war.

[Greentinted]

The Yams' attitude to the war that that poem was written about? :cool2:

Heart of Midlothian are apparently prepared to use Remembrance to boost sales of club merchandise.

(Unless, of course, all profits from sales of Poppy-related items are passed on to Poppy Scotland? But then, given their innovative and somewhat unconventional approach to book-keeping, how will we ever know?)

This is despicable, but fully in keeping with the general practices of the present regime at Tynecastle.

The rank-and-file Jambo, however, has adopted the attitude (sorry, that should be RANK-and-VILE, I think) that because of the peculiar circumstances in which one particular "Pals" Battalion of Kitchener's New Army was mustered in 1914-15, somehow their football club has been canonised as the very epitome of glorious British manhood and heroism. While in what passes for their sorry minds, Hibernian have been demonised as a bunch of lazy call-up-dodging Fenian low-lifes.

McCrae's was ONE of dozens of local "Pals" Battalions raised during the first 18 months of the Great War, and was in no way different in quality, courage or sacrifice. McCrae's was the 16th Battalion Royal Scots - which should tell even the thickest Yam that there were a lot of other Royal Scots battalions before and alongside them in the fighting. Including the 7th Battalion T.A. (Leith and Lothians) who were in existence and on the way to Gallipoli a year before the Somme. That's the Gretna battalion. McCrae's deserves repspect and honour and remembrance, but no more nor less than any other battalion who fought on the Somme, and no more than any other battalion/regiment/ship's company/aircrew who fought and did their duty in the wars of the 20th century.

Those of us with long-term Leith connections and relations who died in the Great War (including some who were killed or badly injured at Gretna) don't like the nasty way the Yams try to appropriate the glory, especially when there really isn't a lot of glory involved.

As Shakespeare so truly said, "I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle..."

I mourn them all, respect them all, and honour their loss. I'm well aware that there but for the grace of God might I myself have been. Owen's poem rather sums up a wee bit of that.

Powerful and accurate and no little emotional. :top marks

[The Harp Awakes]

IMO there are elements of the Hearts support who are becoming obsessed with the Macraes batallion stuff. It is right to recognise the sacrifice of the fallen in any war, on any side for that matter, but some Hearts fans are exploiting this sad loss to promote their Club and that is despicable.

I'd be interested to know what the same Hearts fans feel about an element of the Celtic support's obsession with commemorating dead IRA members, e.g., Bobby Sands.

Of course they would proclaim that the British Army, being the perenial goodies, are always totally justified in all of their actions, whereas the IRA were nothing but a bunch of baddies and mindless murderers with no cause.

Killing is abhorrent regardless of which guise it is under and there are no goodies or baddies in wars. Needless loss of human life is always sad. German soldiers who wanted no part of Hitler's evil Nazi regime, and who were forced to go to War or die, deserve to be remembered as well.

War is catastrophic, and it is right to remember the fallen, but there is a fine line to be tread between rememberence and exploitation and I think some Hearts fans have stepped over it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

IMO there are elements of the Hearts support who are becoming obsessed with the Macraes batallion stuff. It is right to recognise the sacrifice of the fallen in any war, on any side for that matter, but some Hearts fans are exploiting this sad loss to promote their Club and that is despicable.

I'd be interested to know what the same Hearts fans feel about an element of the Celtic support's obcession with commemorating dead IRA members, e.g., Bobby Sands.

Of course they would proclaim that the British Army, being the perenial goodies, are always totally justified in all of their actions, whereas the IRA were nothing but a bunch of baddies and mindless murderers with no cause.

Killing is abhorrent regardless of which guise it is under and there are no goodies or baddies in wars. Needless loss of human life is always sad. German soldiers who wanted no part of Hitler's evil Nazi regime, and who were forced to go to War or die, deserve to be remembered as well.

War is catastrophic, and it is right to remember the fallen, but there is a fine line to be tread between rememberence and exploitation and I think some Hearts fans have stepped over it.

:agree:

[Dinkydoo]

I never noticed that they even had an attitude to that or any other war, other than that they have a special relationship with it because of their unique history.

I thought the exact same hence my outburst earlier in the thread.

I can't say I've experienced any yams acting in the way that folk have described on this thread but can see how behaving as such would be disrespectful.

It's an emotional subject for most.

[Betty Boop]

IMO there are elements of the Hearts support who are becoming obsessed with the Macraes batallion stuff. It is right to recognise the sacrifice of the fallen in any war, on any side for that matter, but some Hearts fans are exploiting this sad loss to promote their Club and that is despicable.

I'd be interested to know what the same Hearts fans feel about an element of the Celtic support's obsession with commemorating dead IRA members, e.g., Bobby Sands.

Of course they would proclaim that the British Army, being the perenial goodies, are always totally justified in all of their actions, whereas the IRA were nothing but a bunch of baddies and mindless murderers with no cause.

Killing is abhorrent regardless of which guise it is under and there are no goodies or baddies in wars. Needless loss of human life is always sad. German soldiers who wanted no part of Hitler's evil Nazi regime, and who were forced to go to War or die, deserve to be remembered as well.

War is catastrophic, and it is right to remember the fallen, but there is a fine line to be tread between rememberence and exploitation and I think some Hearts fans have stepped over it.

Herman Goering's quote form the Nuremberg trials says it all for me.

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”

[--------]

Herman Goering's quote form the Nuremberg trials says it all for me.

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”

:agree:

Hitler had no problem convincing the German people to go to war, and he had no problem persuading the young men to join up.

Goering was right - you CAN fool the vast majority of the people in almost any circumstances and for any length of time.

[discman]

:agree:

Hitler had no problem convincing the German people to go to war, and he had no problem persuading the young men to join up.

Goering was right - you CAN fool the vast majority of the people in almost any circumstances and for any length of time.


Did he not also say the bigger the lie the more plausible it becomes, sounds like Herman was predicting the birth of the advertising industry :cool2: