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SteveHFC
05-10-2010, 10:37 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9044022.stm

Dundee appear 99% certain to go into administration after the football club failed to pay players and staff outstanding wages on Tuesday.

matty_f
05-10-2010, 10:58 PM
I really don't have any sympathy for them. Especially when you consider this bit:


However, the taxman could lose out entirely with the club owing about £1.6m to directors Melville, Bob Brannan and landlord John Bennett in soft loans.
The trio could push through a creditors voluntary arrangement, which would apply to all creditors, writing off the money due and forcing the club into administration.
With HMRC no longer having preferred creditor status, it would lose out on almost all of the money due to them.

So they spend more than they can afford to, bump the tax man, then can get out of it on the back of three of their own directors pulling a fast one.:bitchy:

Sir David Gray
05-10-2010, 11:04 PM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

monktonharp
05-10-2010, 11:28 PM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.:agree: likewise,I feel for their diehard fans,and the ones (older) that have seen the club's demise so much over the years. A once proud club, that won the league eight years or so later than the last time our club did that. but,more than half o' Dundee/Angus is now OF country,imo. nothin' like seeing a fat burd,shovin' a buggy doon whitfield wi' a bag o' messages while wearing her Rangers top.:yawn:

IWasThere2016
06-10-2010, 07:05 AM
Shame but that's life - and as much as I have a soft spot for them - I do believe the SFL should cancel their registration.

franco
06-10-2010, 07:06 AM
:agree: likewise,I feel for their diehard fans,and the ones (older) that have seen the club's demise so much over the years. A once proud club, that won the league eight years or so later than the last time our club did that. but,more than half o' Dundee/Angus is now OF country,imo. nothin' like seeing a fat burd,shovin' a buggy doon whitfield wi' a bag o' messages while wearing her Rangers top.:yawn:

:greengrin spot on

bighairyfaeleith
06-10-2010, 07:12 AM
yep feel sorry for the fans but then where the fans complaining when the board were spending big to try and win the first division?

teams need to start to realise that foolish spending to buy success won't go unpunished.

heretoday
06-10-2010, 07:58 AM
Dundee will be ok. Somehow football clubs always survive, except Gretna. :yawn:

Stevie Reid
06-10-2010, 08:10 AM
Is there now a chance that a high earner like Griffiths will be released and become a free agent?

easty
06-10-2010, 08:17 AM
Is there now a chance that a high earner like Griffiths will be released and become a free agent?

No chance he'll become a free agent, they'll not be able to sell him for what they possibly could have in the summer but they'll look to get a bit of cash for him.

Caversham Green
06-10-2010, 08:27 AM
Dundee will be ok. Somehow football clubs always survive, except Gretna. :yawn:

I reckon another one will go soon but it's unlikely to be Dundee because the other creditors can outvote HMRC for a CVA. Rangers, on the other hand owe most of their debt to the taxman and the Murray group can neither find a buyer nor afford to bail them out. No doubt the SFA would engineer some sort of rescue if that happened though.

Stevie Reid
06-10-2010, 08:28 AM
No chance he'll become a free agent, they'll not be able to sell him for what they possibly could have in the summer but they'll look to get a bit of cash for him.

Ideally, I'm sure they would - but if they can't afford to pay him until the transfer window opens, they're ****ed.

Pretty Boy
06-10-2010, 08:29 AM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

:agree:

I always feel for the fans in these situations (we've been there ourselves) and the everyday workers. However it's about time a reasonably big club went out of business just to show footbaal club that this paying on the never never and speculate to accumulate strategies don't work and a sensible business plan is the only true way to run a football club these days.

down-the-slope
06-10-2010, 08:32 AM
In reply to it being said the directors 'could pull a fast one' and bump HMRC...hardly the case when they would need to write off the 1.6m they loaned the club in exchange for pennies they have left.

Main point was ....what with SFL do if they do go into admin...the precedent is relegation to 3rd like Livi...but one rule for the big boys...another for the wee guy applies at all levels and i expect a fudge :grr:

As they don't even own the ground they have no assets except player registrations (and it would ned special dispensation from SPL / UEFA. to realise cash from these now)..but in exchange they also have player contracts as liabilities...so liquidation is more likley than in other situations

easty
06-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Ideally, I'm sure they would - but if they can't afford to pay him until the transfer window opens, they're ****ed.

Once the administrators come in they'll do all they can to make sure they can hold on to him untill they find a buyer. I dont doubt a lot of staff will go but they'll have to hold onto any saleable assets in the hope of generating some money.

I dont think there will be a shortage of sides willing to pay them a pittance in a transfer fee (perhaps with his wages from now to January 1st as an additional fee) to take him at the next transfer window.

Stevie Reid
06-10-2010, 08:38 AM
Once the administrators come in they'll do all they can to make sure they can hold on to him untill they find a buyer. I dont doubt a lot of staff will go but they'll have to hold onto any saleable assets in the hope of generating some money.

I dont think there will be a shortage of sides willing to pay them a pittance in a transfer fee (perhaps with his wages from now to January 1st as an additional fee) to take him at the next transfer window.

I would agree that they would do all they could, and that a pittance is all they'll get for him - but if his basic wage over the next 3 months is say £15-20K, how are they gonna pay him with no money? Surely non payment is a breach of contract and LG would rather be a free agent and have a pick of more clubs than go without wages and depend on clubs willing to pay a fee for him in January.

I must add that my understanding of these financial aspects are limited, hence the further questions. I'm not doubting what you've told me thus far.

Sylar
06-10-2010, 08:44 AM
In reply to it being said the directors 'could pull a fast one' and bump HMRC...hardly the case when they would need to write off the 1.6m they loaned the club in exchange for pennies they have left.

Main point was ....what with SFL do if they do go into admin...the precedent is relegation to 3rd like Livi...but one rule for the big boys...another for the wee guy applies at all levels and i expect a fudge :grr:

As they don't even own the ground they have no assets except player registrations (and it would ned special dispensation from SPL / UEFA. to realise cash from these now)..but in exchange they also have player contracts as liabilities...so liquidation is more likley than in other situations

They won't relegate them to the third division - they built a rod for their own back by doing it with Livingston, I agree, but Livingston were relegated before their season started, thus allowing the SFL to balance the leagues by adding other teams to the 2nd and 1st to balance it.

Also, all clubs who had lost to Dundee or drawn with Dundee would have a case to take action against the SFL and force them to remove all points from all teams who have played Dundee.

If the go into admin, I reckon it'll be a pitiful points reduction to preserve the integrity of the league til the seasons' close. Interesting if they end up going into liquidation though!

HenryMonk
06-10-2010, 08:44 AM
I reckon another one will go soon but it's unlikely to be Dundee because the other creditors can outvote HMRC for a CVA. Rangers, on the other hand owe most of their debt to the taxman and the Murray group can neither find a buyer nor afford to bail them out. No doubt the SFA would engineer some sort of rescue if that happened though.

i know you know what your talking about Cav, but how could the SFA possibly rescue rangers if things went belly up?

and FWIW i think rangers with champs league money this season will rescue themselves. heaven forbit they make it past group and into knockout rounds they could make best part of 20mill :grr:

easty
06-10-2010, 08:47 AM
I would agree that they would do all they could, and that a pittance is all they'll get for him - but if his basic wage over the next 3 months is say £15-20K, how are they gonna pay him with no money? Surely non payment is a breach of contract and LG would rather be a free agent and have a pick of more clubs than go without wages and depend on clubs willing to pay a fee for him in January.

I must add that my understanding of these financial aspects are limited, hence the further questions. I'm not doubting what you've told me thus far.

Don't give what I've posted any credence whatsoever! I'm as clueless about it all as you probably!

I'd be amazed if he's going to make near £15k in the next 3 months though. There will be plenty SPL lads who dont make near that I'd have thought.

The administrators wouldnt be doing a very good job if they let the clubs most saleable asset leave for free instead of finding a way to hold onto him and get him sold.

Stevie Reid
06-10-2010, 08:56 AM
Don't give what I've posted any credence whatsoever! I'm as clueless about it all as you probably!

I'd be amazed if he's going to make near £15k in the next 3 months though. There will be plenty SPL lads who dont make near that I'd have thought.

The administrators wouldnt be doing a very good job if they let the clubs most saleable asset leave for free instead of finding a way to hold onto him and get him sold.

The £15k is just a guess but I'd imagine that there is a fair chance that LG is making around £1500 a week if the crazy money that they're supposed to have been spending is to be believed. Big tax bills come from big wage bills.

Caversham Green
06-10-2010, 08:57 AM
i know you know what your talking about Cav, but how could the SFA possibly rescue rangers if things went belly up?

and FWIW i think rangers with champs league money this season will rescue themselves. heaven forbit they make it past group and into knockout rounds they could make best part of 20mill :grr:

I don't know how they would do it, but I'm pretty sure they would contrive to keep a Glasgow team called Rangers in th SPL. You're probably right about the CL money as well, but it still looks a bit touch and go to me.

easty
06-10-2010, 09:02 AM
The £15k is just a guess but I'd imagine that there is a fair chance that LG is making around £1500 a week if the crazy money that they're supposed to have been spending is to be believed. Big tax bills come from big wage bills.

I just don't have any idea what Dundee are paying him but if you're correct then that's ridiculous.

If they continue to keep bumping the taxman then, at £1500 a week, they'd only have to find around maybe £9.5k in actual wages to him between now and January. It'd be moronic for Dundee/Administrators to allow him to go for free cos they can't find £9.5k when they could possibly bring in 10x that for him in selling him.

I'd love for him to be released and for Hibs to snap him up for free, I just don't see them letting it happen.

hibbycha
06-10-2010, 09:03 AM
we should all put a tenner in .. remember they gave us albert kidd in 1986:greengrin:thumbsup:

Andy74
08-10-2010, 12:31 PM
Dundee are to go into administration after all.

Should Rod make the call on Griffiths?!:wink:

GloryGlory
08-10-2010, 12:40 PM
Dundee are to go into administration after all.

Should Rod make the call on Griffiths?!:wink:

Griffiths will be their one asset (maybe Harkins, as well) - they will try to cash in in January. However, it will be a buyer's market, so the administrator will have to take what he can get.

BTW, thank goodness we have STF and RP at the helm.

truehibernian
08-10-2010, 12:47 PM
Would have liked MAC back for a 6 month stint. Loves the club, still goes to ER when not playing, and gives 100%. Apparently he is one being released straight away. With Nish and Trakys there I doubt it will happen.

NORTHERNHIBBY
08-10-2010, 01:02 PM
A lot of the problems I think stem back to when Jocky Scott was in charge. His steady as you go football all but had them up, but then they started to look at how they would play in the SPL and they all, as a club, lost concentration. Somebdy told me that their quickest player over 100 metres was still slower than one of the girls that worked with their medical team. This player didn't need to improve though, as he was the quickest in the team.

Phil D. Rolls
08-10-2010, 01:10 PM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

Yes, it is for the fans of all clubs to be very careful about white knights who offer them the world. I only hope Hibs supporters aren't as stupid as to be fooled by sweet talking investors. I very much doubt it though.

Andy74
08-10-2010, 01:53 PM
Yes, it is for the fans of all clubs to be very careful about white knights who offer them the world. I only hope Hibs supporters aren't as stupid as to be fooled by sweet talking investors. I very much doubt it though.

Brian Kennedy had more than a few fooled.

Sas_The_Hibby
08-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Dundee will be ok. Somehow football clubs always survive, except Gretna. :yawn:

...and Hearts............. :wink:

PaulSmith
08-10-2010, 04:55 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9044022.stm

I wonder if this invalidates player contracts?

edit. Liverpoool seem certain to do the same and Man Utd post losses of £80m on the back of Man City posting £123m loss last week. How long can this go on!?

IWasThere2016
08-10-2010, 05:00 PM
Man U's losses are 'accounting' Paul - not really a concern for them at this moment in time IMHO. Neither is City's as long as their owners continue to pump the cash in.

Liverpool are a mess sadly! Poor squad, an ageing ground in need of complete overhaul/relocation.

The Dees .. God knows what's next!

Phil D. Rolls
08-10-2010, 05:04 PM
Man U's losses are 'accounting' Paul - not really a concern for them at this moment in time IMHO. Neither is City's as long as their owners continue to pump the cash in.

Liverpool are a mess sadly! Poor squad, an ageing ground in need of complete overhaul/relocation.

The Dees .. God knows what's next!

There has been a precedent. Surely the minimum is points deducted?

ScottB
08-10-2010, 05:11 PM
There has been a precedent. Surely the minimum is points deducted?

Surely Livi will be pushing for them to suffer a similar fate as they've endured?

I note the FA has changed their mind and said Liverpool will face a point deduction after earlier this week suggesting a nonsense that they wouldn't as despite the inability pay their debts they'd be still 'technically solvent.'

City have no issues as long as their trillionaire owners are around. Man Utd could easily go Liverpools way should the Glazers fail to keep their loans going as whats happened to Gillette and Hicks.

Sylar
08-10-2010, 05:19 PM
Surely Livi will be pushing for them to suffer a similar fate as they've endured?

I note the FA has changed their mind and said Liverpool will face a point deduction after earlier this week suggesting a nonsense that they wouldn't as despite the inability pay their debts they'd be still 'technically solvent.'

City have no issues as long as their trillionaire owners are around. Man Utd could easily go Liverpools way should the Glazers fail to keep their loans going as whats happened to Gillette and Hicks.

Nah, I'd doubt it - they may well take action should that penalty NOT be imposed, but I very much doubt the Livingston board would wish to see that happen to any club. Besides, Brennan voted in Livingston's favour when they were relegated to the third division. Besides, the SFL have the cover that, with the season having already started, it would be a logistical nightmare to re-adjust divisions/points etc. They'll get a points deduction, probably one big enough to see them guaranteed to spend next season in the second division.

Another kick in the teeth to the city of Dundee. SOOOO many other clubs the HMRC could have pursued for much larger outstanding bills than the Dark Blues. Making an example of the smaller club only inflicts misery on the infrastructure within the club and the business who provide service or rely on the existence and normal operation of Dundee FC. This will impact onto the economy of Dundee YET AGAIN, only months after the removal of funding for the highly profitable gaming industry and a year after the massive losses at NCR. At a time when Dundee is undergoing MASSIVE rejuvination, this is the last thing the city needs.

IWasThere2016
08-10-2010, 09:02 PM
Agreed S. Public Sector cuts next - and the city is too heavily dependent on those jobs also. Sad state of affairs.

Iggy Pope
08-10-2010, 09:16 PM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.
It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

You would have no problem with a club like Dundee going out of business?
Over a hundred years of tradition just like that.
Staggering.
A club with a bit of history winning a league title more recently than we have with a side that people of a certain vintage still regard as the best they have seen in Scottish Football before being ruthlessly broken up.

Needlessly to say they have had a Scottish Cup win since we last did (albeit only a few years later).
They have as many League Cup wins as we have.
European cup semi finalists just a few years before Celtic created their much-vaunted bit of 'history'.
And as big a side (if not as attractive) as we were during Eddie Turnbull's Tornadoes pomp.
Lessons? Fiscals and frugality - Hear ****ing hear.
This is not Gretna or Clydebank. If Dundee disappear it will be a major loss to Scottish Football and should certainly be a concern to anyone who has an interest.

joe breezy
08-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Sad day if Dundee go...

Sir David Gray
08-10-2010, 09:28 PM
You would have no problem with a club like Dundee going out of business?
Over a hundred years of tradition just like that.
Staggering.
A club with a bit of history winning a league title more recently than we have with a side that people of a certain vintage still regard as the best they have seen in Scottish Football before being ruthlessly broken up.

Needlessly to say they have had a Scottish Cup win since we last did albeit only a few years later).
They have as many League Cup wins as we have.
European cup semi finalists just a few years before Celtic created their much-vaunted bit of 'history'.
And as big a side (if not as attractive) as we were during Eddie Turnbull's Tornadoes pomp.
Lessons? Fiscals and frugality - Hear ****ing hear.
This is not Gretna or Clydebank. If Dundee disappear it will be a major loss to Scottish Football and should certainly be a concern to anyone who has an interest.

As I've already said, I would feel for their fans and for the "ordinary" men and women who work at Dens Park but I'm sorry, any club that enters administration twice in the space of seven years, deserves all it gets.

Iggy Pope
08-10-2010, 09:43 PM
As I've already said, I would feel for their fans and for the "ordinary" men and women who work at Dens Park but I'm sorry, any club that enters administration twice in the space of seven years, deserves all it gets.

I'm sure the people who work at Dundee might appreciate your sympathy but losing a big club (by the Scottish map standards) is catastrophic and sad.
You don't have a problem with that though.
Had you ever encountered the word 'administration' in this context, say 10 years ago?
In football we read the back pages not the pink pages. And 'FT' only means Full Time.

Now we are all financial sages. They deserve all they get blah, blah, blah.

We don't have enough big-sized clubs to lose any of them.
The Huns are my (second) least favourite side in the world.
They are featured in this thread elsewhere.
If they go out of business for whatever reason it is tragic for the game in this country.

cal-d hibs
08-10-2010, 10:03 PM
You would have no problem with a club like Dundee going out of business?
Over a hundred years of tradition just like that.
Staggering.
A club with a bit of history winning a league title more recently than we have with a side that people of a certain vintage still regard as the best they have seen in Scottish Football before being ruthlessly broken up.

Needlessly to say they have had a Scottish Cup win since we last did (albeit only a few years later).
They have as many League Cup wins as we have.
European cup semi finalists just a few years before Celtic created their much-vaunted bit of 'history'.
And as big a side (if not as attractive) as we were during Eddie Turnbull's Tornadoes pomp.
Lessons? Fiscals and frugality - Hear ****ing hear.
This is not Gretna or Clydebank. If Dundee disappear it will be a major loss to Scottish Football and should certainly be a concern to anyone who has an interest.

:top marks

Sir David Gray
08-10-2010, 10:13 PM
I'm sure the people who work at Dundee might appreciate your sympathy but losing a big club (by the Scottish map standards) is catastrophic and sad.
You don't have a problem with that though.
Had you ever encountered the word 'administration' in this context, say 10 years ago?
In football we read the back pages not the pink pages. And 'FT' only means Full Time.

Now we are all financial sages. They deserve all they get blah, blah, blah.

We don't have enough big-sized clubs to lose any of them.
The Huns are my (second) least favourite side in the world.
They are featured in this thread elsewhere.
If they go out of business for whatever reason it is tragic for the game in this country.

Hopefully it would only need one club to go out of business before the others would fully appreciate the situation and act more responsibly with their finances. I don't necessarily want that club to be Dundee, personally I would much rather it was Rangers (or Celtic for that matter) that we were talking about just now but things really have to change in Scottish football and clubs have to understand that they, along with all other businesses, have a duty to live within their means. If they don't do that then they must be prepared to face the consequences if/when things go pear-shaped.

Over the past few years, Dundee have paid transfer fees and wages that other clubs who may have been interested in the same players wouldn't offer to pay because they knew that they couldn't afford it. The way that I see it is, Dundee have really been cheating over the past seven years, because they have been paying money that they didn't actually have, in the hope that it would provide them with success. They certainly hoped that the spending spree last year would have given them promotion to the SPL this year and when that didn't materialise, they knew that they were stuffed.

I, for one, will shed no tears if they go out of business in the near future but I do hope that the ordinary workers manage to find new employment because it's not their fault. It's not as easy for the fans to find an alternative team to support, though.

Pete
08-10-2010, 10:33 PM
The figure that is the hub of all of this is quite trivial when you think about the club in a historical context.

All this club is worth is just under £400k. All it's history, all it's contributions to Scottish football and all it's value to the community.
Listed buildings have more spent on them yet this club will be allowed to go under for such a small amount of money. And it is small on several levels.

I know they've been mis-managed but these people aren't the club...the fans are and they deserve better than their club going to the wall.

A mediocre player in the premiership gets that kind of money in a month and a decent Celtic player might get that in a few more.
The FA and the SFA are scratching their heads wondering why we're crap at international level and the answer is staring them in the face...yet they're too scared, or unable to do anything about it. The pyramid is getting far too top heavy with the big boys flourishing while the little boys are struggling to survive.
It's time to recognise that football isn't like big business where only the strong survive because a healthy pyramid of clubs has to be in operation for the sport to exist.
If the big clubs were made to share the wealth around by the governing bodies instead of hoarding every penny they can then the chairmen of smaller clubs might not have to take such big risks to try and get to a competative level.

I can't turn a corner any more without seeing one of the big four supermarkets "little shops". Far from "complimenting the other shops", all they are doing is maximising their profit and aggressively forcing the wee guys out of business.
This is the way the top of the football tree is acting but the difference is that if the wee guys in football go then the big boys will eventually collapse because there will be nothing of any substance underneath them.

Iggy Pope
08-10-2010, 10:40 PM
Hopefully it would only need one club to go out of business before the others would fully appreciate the situation and act more responsibly with their finances. I don't necessarily want that club to be Dundee, personally I would much rather it was Rangers (or Celtic for that matter) that we were talking about just now but things really have to change in Scottish football and clubs have to understand that they, along with all other businesses, have a duty to live within their means. If they don't do that then they must be prepared to face the consequences if/when things go pear-shaped.

Over the past few years, Dundee have paid transfer fees and wages that other clubs who may have been interested in the same players wouldn't offer to pay because they knew that they couldn't afford it. The way that I see it is, Dundee have really been cheating over the past seven years, because they have been paying money that they didn't actually have, in the hope that it would provide them with success. They certainly hoped that the spending spree last year would have given them promotion to the SPL this year and when that didn't materialise, they knew that they were stuffed.

I, for one, will shed no tears if they go out of business in the near future but I do hope that the ordinary workers manage to find new employment because it's not their fault. It's not as easy for the fans to find an alternative team to support, though.

That's full of cliche and sanctimony. Were you giving a speech there? When has any club, anywhere, ever acted responsibly with finances?

We're just about managing it at Hibs now (although I am sure that Monday's AGM will have the more learned amongst us thinking differently - the turnover figures do not make pleasant reading. And we are already due significant compensation to a Manager that our Chief Exec proudly tells us as collected Shareholders that we 'won''t find in the figures' next year).

Even at that, we only seem to be geting to even keel because we had pushed ourselves to the brink.

For the second time in less than 20 years.

I'm sure there's plenty around Dundee who would have 'shed no tears' if the unthinkable had happened to us on either occasion.
I would like to think that there were a lot more with the savvy to see exactly how bleak that would have been for our game as a whole.

As for Celtic or Rangers preferably going out of business for goodness sake get a grip. Put all the **** to one side and think about that for a minute.
We have a 20,000 seat stadium to fill.
Who against? Hamilton Accies or some other well-run-financially-responsible institution?

Things will change in Scottish Football all right.

Stonewall
08-10-2010, 10:41 PM
Is there now a chance that a high earner like Griffiths will be released and become a free agent?

Is it not the case that if the club don't pay his wages they're in breach of contract and he could walk?

New Corrie
08-10-2010, 10:47 PM
You would have no problem with a club like Dundee going out of business?
Over a hundred years of tradition just like that.
Staggering.
A club with a bit of history winning a league title more recently than we have with a side that people of a certain vintage still regard as the best they have seen in Scottish Football before being ruthlessly broken up.

Needlessly to say they have had a Scottish Cup win since we last did (albeit only a few years later).
They have as many League Cup wins as we have.
European cup semi finalists just a few years before Celtic created their much-vaunted bit of 'history'.
And as big a side (if not as attractive) as we were during Eddie Turnbull's Tornadoes pomp.
Lessons? Fiscals and frugality - Hear ****ing hear.
This is not Gretna or Clydebank. If Dundee disappear it will be a major loss to Scottish Football and should certainly be a concern to anyone who has an interest.


Great post:top marks

Iggy Pope
08-10-2010, 10:48 PM
The figure that is the hub of all of this is quite trivial when you think about the club in a historical context.

All this club is worth is just under £400k. All it's history, all it's contributions to Scottish football and all it's value to the community.
Listed buildings have more spent on them yet this club will be allowed to go under for such a small amount of money. And it is small on several levels.

I know they've been mis-managed but these people aren't the club...the fans are and they deserve better than their club going to the wall.

A mediocre player in the premiership gets that kind of money in a month and a decent Celtic player might get that in a few more.
The FA and the SFA are scratching their heads wondering why we're crap at international level and the answer is staring them in the face...yet they're too scared, or unable to do anything about it. The pyramid is getting far too top heavy with the big boys flourishing while the little boys are struggling to survive.
It's time to recognise that football isn't like big business where only the strong survive because a healthy pyramid of clubs has to be in operation for the sport to exist.
If the big clubs were made to share the wealth around by the governing bodies instead of hoarding every penny they can then the chairmen of smaller clubs might not have to take such big risks to try and get to a competative level.

I can't turn a corner any more without seeing one of the big four supermarkets "little shops". Far from "complimenting the other shops", all they are doing is maximising their profit and aggressively forcing the wee guys out of business.
This is the way the top of the football tree is acting but the difference is that if the wee guys in football go then the big boys will eventually collapse because there will be nothing of any substance underneath them.

Agreed.
When the big boys start to topple it will be clubs at Hibs' big boys level that go first. Not the Old Firm.

NYHibby
08-10-2010, 10:48 PM
If Dundee only gets relegated at the end of the season, looks like we may be playing Stirling Albion next year ...

WeAreHibs
08-10-2010, 10:50 PM
Livi got that for failing to guarantee they'd fulfil fixtures. There's no official penalty for admin in the SFL.

ScottB
08-10-2010, 10:57 PM
I'm somewhere in the middle of this debate.

Yes, football clubs as a rule are bad with money, us included, to various degrees.

However, this isn't just Dundee paying stupid wages and transfer fees. This was Dundee's Board taking the conscious decision, as a business plan, to just not pay the taxman. I have a big problem with that. I'd like to see all those currently on that Board banned from football frankly, along with their former owner.

Now, I don't want to see any club fold, but they are done. They don't own the ground, so really the only thing of value is the name and that's it, so I would reckon someone will acquire that and refound the club, sharing with United presumably.

In a way it is awful that fans have to suffer for their Boards mismanagement (though how loudly were their fans complaining while they were clearly spending outwith their means? Hearts are another example here) but ultimately there needs to be a big stick to stop this, a few points off and your debts shed is hardly enough when you consider the hardships clubs like us, St Johnstone, St Mirren etc go through to try and live in the real world.

AFKA5814_Hibs
08-10-2010, 11:12 PM
Twice in 8 years. Unfortunate for the real fans but the club deserve it, they were always going one way.

Phil D. Rolls
09-10-2010, 12:02 PM
I think in an age when people are worried about whether their employer will be around in six months time; when people are ill because of stress over whether their home will be repossessed; when our public services are to be decimated to pay national debt, it is breathtaking arrogance for any football club or their fans to expect preferrential treatment.

Like it or not football operates in the real world, despite the insane delusions of supporters. Dundee are no bigger a team than Third Lanark or Leith Athletic,when it comes to the bit. They have spent the majority of the last 35 years outside the top division, and yet still spend money like big time Charlies.

I doubt if there would be the same concerns over Raith Rovers or Dunfermline Athletic.

BEEJ
09-10-2010, 12:14 PM
When has any club, anywhere, ever acted responsibly with finances?

We're just about managing it at Hibs now (although I am sure that Monday's AGM will have the more learned amongst us thinking differently - the turnover figures do not make pleasant reading. And we are already due significant compensation to a Manager that our Chief Exec proudly tells us as collected Shareholders that we 'won''t find in the figures' next year).
That's an interesting quote. :confused:

Anyone who was at the AGM on Monday care to elaborate on this point?

Albion Hibs
09-10-2010, 12:56 PM
I have sympathy with their fans and the ordinary people who do the day-to-day work at Dundee who would be made redundant if they were to go to the wall but, other than that, I would have no problems with them going out of business.

It would hopefully act as a lesson to all other football clubs who might think about acting irresponsibly with their finances in the future.

Agreed mate, these people have been let down by those in charge, we may not pay the wages to get players to Easter Road, but regardless could not think of anything worse than being in there shoes.

Remember thinking last year how good it would be if Dundee could get back into the premier league, another derby for the SPL and a decent away trip.

Phil D. Rolls
09-10-2010, 12:58 PM
Agreed mate, these people have been let down by those in charge, we may not pay the wages to get players to Easter Road, but regardless could not think of anything worse than being in there shoes.

Remember thinking last year how good it would be if Dundee could get back into the premier league, another derby for the SPL and a decent away trip.

:yawn:

So you actually enjoy visiting Dens Park? How surprising.

Albion Hibs
09-10-2010, 01:11 PM
:yawn:

So you actually enjoy visiting Dens Park? How surprising.

:top marks

Yet another well structured and well thought through response. You certainly are a wizard of the english language. Well done you!

Iggy Pope
09-10-2010, 01:12 PM
That's an interesting quote. :confused:

Anyone who was at the AGM on Monday care to elaborate on this point?

Going of-topic I think seeing as the thread's about Dundee but it's my point and I was at the AGM so I'll elaborate. One of the Shareholders posed the question (to Petrie) about what the club might be owing Yogi in compensation and where would it be found in next year's report. Scott Lindsay responded by saying that it would be kept confidential as always, that the sum would be within next year's figures, but that you 'probably won't be able to see it'. Said with equal doses of hilarity and smugness in my opinion. But at least he gave a straight answer which was more than RP did all night.

ScottB
09-10-2010, 01:13 PM
Going of-topic I think seeing as the thread's about Dundee but it's my point and I was at the AGM so I'll elaborate. One of the Shareholders posed the question (to Petrie) about what the club might be owing Yogi in compensation and where would it be found in next year's report. Scott Lindsay responded by saying that it would be kept confidential as always, that the sum would be within next year's figures, but that you 'probably won't be able to see it'. Said with equal doses of hilarity and smugness in my opinion. But at least he gave a straight answer which was more than RP did all night.

But as he 'left by mutual consent' presumably he's not going to be getting the full whack he would have got had he just been sacked?

Iggy Pope
09-10-2010, 01:21 PM
I think in an age when people are worried about whether their employer will be around in six months time; when people are ill because of stress over whether their home will be repossessed; when our public services are to be decimated to pay national debt, it is breathtaking arrogance for any football club or their fans to expect preferrential treatment.

Like it or not football operates in the real world, despite the insane delusions of supporters. Dundee are no bigger a team than Third Lanark or Leith Athletic,when it comes to the bit. They have spent the majority of the last 35 years outside the top division, and yet still spend money like big time Charlies.

I doubt if there would be the same concerns over Raith Rovers or Dunfermline Athletic.

My concern would be exactly the same were it Raith Rovers or Dunfermline. Or Kilmarnock, Falkirk, Clyde, East Fife, St.Mirren or any other side with a bit of Scottish Football's heritage behind them.
I don't know enough about Leith Athletic's position when they folded all those years ago, but I do know they never had the impact on the game that Dundeee have.

Of course supporters are insanely deluded. Football makes you that way.

All the problems we face in society today does not make the imminent demise of a big Scottish club any less sad.

Iggy Pope
09-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Going of-topic I think seeing as the thread's about Dundee but it's my point and I was at the AGM so I'll elaborate. One of the Shareholders posed the question (to Petrie) about what the club might be owing Yogi in compensation and where would it be found in next year's report. Scott Lindsay responded by saying that it would be kept confidential as always, that the sum would be within next year's figures, but that you 'probably won't be able to see it'. Said with equal doses of hilarity and smugness in my opinion. But at least he gave a straight answer which was more than RP did all night.


But as he 'left by mutual consent' presumably he's not going to be getting the full whack he would have got had he just been sacked?

The bit in bold.

sahib
09-10-2010, 01:25 PM
But as he 'left by mutual consent' presumably he's not going to be getting the full whack he would have got had he just been sacked?

I suspect the consent wouldn't have been so mutual if there had not a substantial financial settlement. :greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
09-10-2010, 01:30 PM
:top marks

Yet another well structured and well thought through response. You certainly are a wizard of the english language. Well done you!

Maybe you need to take a bit of time thinking about what you write. You say you're not a Yam, yet so many of your posts contain what might be interpreted as "subtle" digs at Hibs.

Why did you feel the need to mention Hibs wage structure in the last post? It just looked like an opportunistic dig to me. Reading through your posts, whenever I have the misfortune to stumble upon one, I tend to pick up on a lack of depth of knowledge about Hibs, or any real concern for how they will fare.

Phil D. Rolls
09-10-2010, 01:34 PM
My concern would be exactly the same were it Raith Rovers or Dunfermline. Or Kilmarnock, Falkirk, Clyde, East Fife, St.Mirren or any other side with a bit of Scottish Football's heritage behind them.
I don't know enough about Leith Athletic's position when they folded all those years ago, but I do know they never had the impact on the game that Dundeee have.

Of course supporters are insanely deluded. Football makes you that way.

All the problems we face in society today does not make the imminent demise of a big Scottish club any less sad.

It's no less sad, but it's time football got a grip on how unimportant it is to many many people. If people are deluded it's for those who aren't to keep them safe. IMO, if DFC go under, so be it - they made their own bed etc.

ScottB
09-10-2010, 01:37 PM
I suspect the consent wouldn't have been so mutual if there had not a substantial financial settlement. :greengrin

Not so sure, if we just sacked him he'd get the full amount his contract entitles him too, if it's mutual, perhaps an agreement was reached?

Albion Hibs
09-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Maybe you need to take a bit of time thinking about what you write. You say you're not a Yam, yet so many of your posts contain what might be interpreted as "subtle" digs at Hibs.

Why did you feel the need to mention Hibs wage structure in the last post? It just looked like an opportunistic dig to me. Reading through your posts, whenever I have the misfortune to stumble upon one, I tend to pick up on a lack of depth of knowledge about Hibs, or any real concern for how they will fare.

I think you need help, or maybe just someone to come round once in a while and talk you through what other peoples post mean - interpretation skills 0/10 I am afraid.

Perhaps you have a complex of some variety?

The reality is that what I said in relation to our wage structure was exceptionally positive, a compliment to how the club is run, how as a club we should not have to fare as they are, and how due to that fact we will not have to go through what Dundee are. I struggle to see how you have found the negative in there.

Perhaps the negative view about Hibs which you talk of is actually coming from you - perhaps on a level you view the club in that way? You seem to search out anything which you interpret as negative and play on this.

I really dont know, just my opinion and perhaps something for you to think about, after all no one else seemed to find the comments I made so anti-Hibs.

Anyway, your constant reviewing of my posts and searching for something negative to say is becoming a bit boring for me, likewise, I can image others in the forum are probably thinking the same. I have given you a few things to think about so perhaps I wont be hearing from you for sometime.

Phil D. Rolls
09-10-2010, 01:50 PM
I think you need help, or maybe just someone to come round once in a while and talk you through what other peoples post mean - interpretation skills 0/10 I am afraid.

Perhaps you have a complex of some variety?

The reality is that what I said in relation to our wage structure was exceptionally positive, a compliment to how the club is run, how as a club we should not have to fare as they are, and how due to that fact we will not have to go through what Dundee are. I struggle to see how you have found the negative in there.

Perhaps the negative view about Hibs which you talk of is actually coming from you - perhaps on a level you view the club in that way? You seem to search out anything which you interpret as negative and play on this.

I really dont know, just my opinion and perhaps something for you to think about, after all no one else seemed to find the comments I made so anti-Hibs.

Anyway, your constant reviewing of my posts and searching for something negative to say is becoming a bit boring for me, likewise, I can image others in the forum are probably thinking the same. I have given you a few things to think about so perhaps I wont be hearing from you for sometime.

RD Laing lives!

Big Frank
09-10-2010, 02:04 PM
RD Laing lives!


You're a nightmare :agree:

BEEJ
09-10-2010, 02:47 PM
Going of-topic I think seeing as the thread's about Dundee but it's my point and I was at the AGM so I'll elaborate. One of the Shareholders posed the question (to Petrie) about what the club might be owing Yogi in compensation and where would it be found in next year's report. Scott Lindsay responded by saying that it would be kept confidential as always, that the sum would be within next year's figures, but that you 'probably won't be able to see it'. Said with equal doses of hilarity and smugness in my opinion. But at least he gave a straight answer which was more than RP did all night.
OK, thanks. :aok:

Makes sense, actually. Severance payments for Yogi and Rice will be lost in figures in the accounts such as "Gain / (Loss) on Disposal of Intangibles". These figures will have many other components. So unless those other components are known in detail (and they never are) it will be impossible to work out the figures for the management team.

I wondered from the wording of your first post whether these severance payments were somehow to be left out of this year's accounts, which would have been puzzling.

CropleyWasGod
09-10-2010, 02:53 PM
OK, thanks. :aok:

Makes sense, actually. Severance payments for Yogi and Rice will be lost in figures in the accounts such as "Gain / (Loss) on Disposal of Intangibles". These figures will have many other components. So unless those other components are known in detail (and they never are) it will be impossible to work out the figures for the management team.

I wondered from the wording of your first post whether these severance payments were somehow to be left out of this year's accounts, which would have been puzzling.

They are likely to be included in Staff Costs.

Just Jimmy
09-10-2010, 07:27 PM
Nah, I'd doubt it - they may well take action should that penalty NOT be imposed, but I very much doubt the Livingston board would wish to see that happen to any club. Besides, Brennan voted in Livingston's favour when they were relegated to the third division. Besides, the SFL have the cover that, with the season having already started, it would be a logistical nightmare to re-adjust divisions/points etc. They'll get a points deduction, probably one big enough to see them guaranteed to spend next season in the second division.

Another kick in the teeth to the city of Dundee. SOOOO many other clubs the HMRC could have pursued for much larger outstanding bills than the Dark Blues. Making an example of the smaller club only inflicts misery on the infrastructure within the club and the business who provide service or rely on the existence and normal operation of Dundee FC. This will impact onto the economy of Dundee YET AGAIN, only months after the removal of funding for the highly profitable gaming industry and a year after the massive losses at NCR. At a time when Dundee is undergoing MASSIVE rejuvination, this is the last thing the city needs.

excellent post scott. Anyone who works or is linked with Dundee sees this exactly as it is. A massive kick in the nuts to Dundee as a city, a problem that far out weights the football issue.

May be good for United in 10 years but not for the city.

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 09:34 AM
Brian Kennedy had more than a few fooled.

It doesn't take much. A run of poor results, and a suitcase full of monopoly money is usually enough, to get people who work as plasterers, cleaners, and doctors nodding their heads sagely, and saying "boay sounds the business tae me, he's even wearing a tie!".

Why is it everyone is an expert on other people's jobs? It's like those idiots who scream at first aiders to get a move on. They know nothing about first aid, yet they have managed to make a diagnosis and write a care plan, based on the fact that their mate has told them there's an old guy out cold.

"I admit, that finance is something I know nothing about, but the guy couldn't be dishonest if he has built up his own double glazing company"etc.

bighairyfaeleith
10-10-2010, 09:41 AM
I'm finding it harder and harder to feel sorry for dundee. The fans didn't say anything when they where spending big last season despite having been in administration just a couple of years before.

The fans need to realise they have played a huge part in there clubs demise and do something about it.

Clubs are going to go to the wall and all the history in the world won't change that.

NAE NOOKIE
10-10-2010, 09:43 AM
Tragic for Scottish football if Dundee were to go to the wall.

Considering the mostly downs they have been through over the last decade they appear to have a pretty loyal and potentially big support when they are doing well.

Scottish football cant afford to lose a big derby either.

I for one have always always enjoyed their sadly infrequent visits to ER over the years coz they always bring a decent away support and the club ethos from what I have seen is to play attractive attacking football.

Good luck Dundee, hope you find a white knight.

Hibs On Tour
10-10-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm finding it harder and harder to feel sorry for dundee. The fans didn't say anything when they where spending big last season despite having been in administration just a couple of years before.

The fans need to realise they have played a huge part in there clubs demise and do something about it.

Clubs are going to go to the wall and all the history in the world won't change that.

Whatever happened to the Dees for Life thing that was around years back? If they have say 5000 regular die-hard fans, £80 from each of them would pay off the HMRC debt in full. Shouldn't be down to anyone else, the league, other creditors, etc to bail them out. If they're so important to their fans, that's who should be doing something about it. After all, they're the ones who were loving it when their board were overspending looking for quick success...

NAE NOOKIE
10-10-2010, 10:00 AM
You would have no problem with a club like Dundee going out of business?
Over a hundred years of tradition just like that.
Staggering.
A club with a bit of history winning a league title more recently than we have with a side that people of a certain vintage still regard as the best they have seen in Scottish Football before being ruthlessly broken up.

Needlessly to say they have had a Scottish Cup win since we last did (albeit only a few years later).
They have as many League Cup wins as we have.
European cup semi finalists just a few years before Celtic created their much-vaunted bit of 'history'.
And as big a side (if not as attractive) as we were during Eddie Turnbull's Tornadoes pomp.
Lessons? Fiscals and frugality - Hear ****ing hear.
This is not Gretna or Clydebank. If Dundee disappear it will be a major loss to Scottish Football and should certainly be a concern to anyone who has an interest.

:top marks

Dundee historically are probably the 7th or 8th biggest club in Scottish football and with the right people running them could be so again.

I for one would have them in any 16 team SPL which could happen sooner rather than later.

A game against them at ER gets my juices running a lot more than ICT or Killie or Hamilton or Gretna or a hoast of other clubs who have populated the SPL over the years.

Anybody who doesnt care about them going out of business or worse, thinks it would be a good thing, doesnt know much about Scottish football from a historical point of view. Take my word for it .... This would be a disaster.

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm finding it harder and harder to feel sorry for dundee. The fans didn't say anything when they where spending big last season despite having been in administration just a couple of years before.

The fans need to realise they have played a huge part in there clubs demise and do something about it.

Clubs are going to go to the wall and all the history in the world won't change that.

:agree::top marks



Anybody who doesnt care about them going out of business or worse, thinks it would be a good thing, doesnt know much about Scottish football from a historical point of view. Take my word for it .... This would be a disaster.

Why would it be a disaster? Looking at history, clubs have folded before and the game rolls along.

sahib
10-10-2010, 10:24 AM
:agree::top marks



Why would it be a disaster? Looking at history, clubs have folded before and the game rolls along.

Would it have been a disaster if Hibs had gone to the wall? After all the game would have rolled along.
All this blame the fans stuff is a lot of bollox. Football fans want the same thing the world over,namely, a successful team. Singling one group out for culpability is unfair.

bighairyfaeleith
10-10-2010, 10:31 AM
Would it have been a disaster if Hibs had gone to the wall? After all the game would have rolled along.
All this blame the fans stuff is a lot of bollox. Football fans want the same thing the world over,namely, a successful team. Singling one group out for culpability is unfair.

If dundee want to save there club then they have to fight for it, the fans knew fine well they were spending money the didn't have, they knew that could go horribly wrong, now it has they have to stand up and be counted.

I do feel sorry for the life long fans that could lose there club, but a club surviving can never be a formality, survival has to be earned by operating in a sensible manner and twice in under ten years dundee have failed to do this.

crash
10-10-2010, 10:36 AM
Tragic for Scottish football if Dundee were to go to the wall.

Considering the mostly downs they have been through over the last decade they appear to have a pretty loyal and potentially big support when they are doing well.

Scottish football cant afford to lose a big derby either.

I for one have always always enjoyed their sadly infrequent visits to ER over the years coz they always bring a decent away support and the club ethos from what I have seen is to play attractive attacking football.

Good luck Dundee, hope you find a white knight.

Club Ethos? It seems to me their only ethos is to happily live beyond their means, carried on down the same road despite previously having gone into administration.
Have to admit my views are slightly coloured by the events of 1990, when the story broke of our financial difficulties I remember Dundee, then in the first division, publicly stating that they were willing to take our place in the Premier Division.
No Hibs fan should ever forget that.

NAE NOOKIE
10-10-2010, 10:37 AM
:agree::top marks



Why would it be a disaster? Looking at history, clubs have folded before and the game rolls along.

Perhaps it does.

You can say the same for the Tiger I suppose, but would the world be a richer or poorer place for its loss.

:confused:

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 10:44 AM
Would it have been a disaster if Hibs had gone to the wall? After all the game would have rolled along.
All this blame the fans stuff is a lot of bollox. Football fans want the same thing the world over,namely, a successful team. Singling one group out for culpability is unfair.

So fans aren't bright enough to take responsibility for their club? No, they think they are bright enough until the solids hit the ventilation, and all of a sudden it's "poor us, we had no control, we didn't know what we were getting into" etc.

A bit of compassion is due the first time, but if they keep falling for the same guff, hell mend them. You mention Hibs, I think you'll find a lot of people at our club who have had their fingers burned by Duff and Grey who are very cautious about anything that could jeopardise the future of the club.


Perhaps it does.

You can say the same for the Tiger I suppose, but would the world be a richer or poorer place for its loss.

:confused:

Sentiment I can handle.

bighairyfaeleith
10-10-2010, 11:05 AM
Perhaps it does.

You can say the same for the Tiger I suppose, but would the world be a richer or poorer place for its loss.

:confused:

The fact the tiger is about to be extinct is not of it's own making though, Dundee's is as far as I can see.

Off topic but been watching that program about the tiger, never realised it was so close to extinction before, but anyway I'll save the rest for the holy ground:wink:

NAE NOOKIE
10-10-2010, 11:16 AM
The fact the tiger is about to be extinct is not of it's own making though, Dundee's is as far as I can see.

Off topic but been watching that program about the tiger, never realised it was so close to extinction before, but anyway I'll save the rest for the holy ground:wink:

True, but you cant blame the clubs supporters for that. I suppose living in the shadow of Utd for all these years they would have jumped at the chance of any investment with dark blue tinted glasses on.

Dundee fans probably dont like the tiger anyway coz it plays in an Orange & Black strip. :greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 11:28 AM
True, but you cant blame the clubs supporters for that. I suppose living in the shadow of Utd for all these years they would have jumped at the chance of any investment with dark blue tinted glasses on.

Dundee fans probably dont like the tiger anyway coz it plays in an Orange & Black strip. :greengrin

I suppose that is where we disagree. Supporters have to be realistic about what they ask for, and expect. I can think of one provincial club that is £38 million in debt because a guy told them they'd win the Champions League in five years.

They haven't even competed in the CL, or the SPL for that matter. How much sympathy would you have for them if they fell for it again? (As if anyone would be that stupid, you'd be better off just owing the money to yourself).

HibbyAndy
10-10-2010, 11:33 AM
I suppose that is where we disagree. Supporters have to be realistic about what they ask for, and expect. I can think of one provincial club that is £38 million in debt because a guy told them they'd win the Champions League in five years.

They haven't even competed in the CL, or the SPL for that matter. How much sympathy would you have for them if they fell for it again? (As if anyone would be that stupid, you'd be better off just owing the money to yourself).


What's this team you alluding to :greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 11:34 AM
What's this team you alluding to :greengrin

Hogwarts FC, I just made it up to illustrate a point. Nobody could be that stupid.

McD
10-10-2010, 11:40 AM
Nah, I'd doubt it - they may well take action should that penalty NOT be imposed, but I very much doubt the Livingston board would wish to see that happen to any club. Besides, Brennan voted in Livingston's favour when they were relegated to the third division. Besides, the SFL have the cover that, with the season having already started, it would be a logistical nightmare to re-adjust divisions/points etc. They'll get a points deduction, probably one big enough to see them guaranteed to spend next season in the second division.

Another kick in the teeth to the city of Dundee. SOOOO many other clubs the HMRC could have pursued for much larger outstanding bills than the Dark Blues. Making an example of the smaller club only inflicts misery on the infrastructure within the club and the business who provide service or rely on the existence and normal operation of Dundee FC. This will impact onto the economy of Dundee YET AGAIN, only months after the removal of funding for the highly profitable gaming industry and a year after the massive losses at NCR. At a time when Dundee is undergoing MASSIVE rejuvination, this is the last thing the city needs.

Just speculating, could it possibly be that HMRC have deliberately targetted small club, since if they can get a legal ruling against a (wee, relatively insignificant in current British terms) club, they would then have a precedent with which to pursue bigger fish? My thoughts being that the British legal system is based on precedent, but a judge is more likely to find against a Dundee than a Man Utd, Liverpool, or even Hearts.

I could just be talking pish right enuff :greengrin

Phil D. Rolls
10-10-2010, 12:23 PM
You're a nightmare :agree:

I had hoped to leave Freud out of it Frank. Surprised your so upset, did the letters AH get you all itchy mate?

Dashing Bob S
10-10-2010, 05:18 PM
Dundee have been a poorly managed club for years. With their history, there is no way the should have ceded No 1 club in the city slot to United. I feel that they've blown it so many times, there sadly seems to be something almost inexorable about their demise. In this climate its going to be difficult to get another White Knight to come in. They seem to be in that desperate situation of the lady of questionable judgment who looks desperately for Mr Right and invariably ends up yet another cad, who leaves her in an even worse state than the last.

I think they need to almost start from scratch and investigate the potential of a supporters buy-out.

But I get the feeling that they could be the first big scalp for Scottish Football's impending crisis, and that they won't be the last. Sadly, I can see Dundee as a one-team city in a couple of years time.

Sylar
10-10-2010, 06:55 PM
Just speculating, could it possibly be that HMRC have deliberately targetted small club, since if they can get a legal ruling against a (wee, relatively insignificant in current British terms) club, they would then have a precedent with which to pursue bigger fish? My thoughts being that the British legal system is based on precedent, but a judge is more likely to find against a Dundee than a Man Utd, Liverpool, or even Hearts.

I could just be talking pish right enuff :greengrin

Dundee (first time around), Livingston, Gretna are the Scottish clubs they've pursued - surely that's 3 "smaller examples"?

HibeeMcGinn1
10-10-2010, 07:10 PM
To lose a club like Dundee from the game would be a huge loss to Scottish football.

Big Frank
11-10-2010, 02:34 PM
I had hoped to leave Freud out of it Frank. Surprised your so upset, did the letters AH get you all itchy mate?


Doesn't even make sense.

Not upset FR, and not itchy.

Stop bullying - be happy.

YehButNoBut
14-10-2010, 11:39 AM
Looks like it's getting worse for Dundee, Brian Kerr being interviewed on SSN and it looks like they will hear about redundancies tomorrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9085810.stm

ozwoody
14-10-2010, 12:19 PM
In a way its a disaster for scottish football that Dundee are in so much strife,but I cant believe people are sorry for the fans as it was the boards dodgy decisions to pay over the odds and go into so much debt to try get back to the SPL.What we have to remember that the fans had a seat on the board and owned 30% of the club through DEES FOR LIFE,so that group knew every twist and turn the board,of which they were a part,was taking.Now for the fans representative in the boardroom to be part of this fiasco is shameful to the extreme,and shows that no matter what,power does corrupt

lucky
14-10-2010, 12:32 PM
Hope they get relegated. It's a form of cheating

ancienthibby
14-10-2010, 04:34 PM
Beeb radio says that administration has NOW happened.

Players to be released tomorrow!

Sad. Sad. Sad.

PaulSmith
14-10-2010, 05:00 PM
Beeb radio says that administration has NOW happened.

Players to be released tomorrow!

Sad. Sad. Sad.

It is sad but until the football authorities start to police themselves then i'm with the HMRC all the way and if it takes a Dundee or a Liverpool to fold then that's the price to pay to rid ourselves of this financial madness that blights our game

ancienthibby
14-10-2010, 05:03 PM
It is sad but until the football authorities start to police themselves then i'm with the HMRC all the way and if it takes a Dundee or a Liverpool to fold then that's the price to pay to rid ourselves of this financial madness that blights our game

So why are you 'with HMRC'??:grr:

Surely you should be with all creditors??:agree::agree::agree:

PaulSmith
14-10-2010, 05:10 PM
So why are you 'with HMRC'??:grr:

Surely you should be with all creditors??:agree::agree::agree:

HMRC seem the only body that is willing and capable of putting an end to this madness. I hope they win their appeal to give them preferred creditor status in the same way as every other business is regulated.

ScottB
14-10-2010, 05:12 PM
So why are you 'with HMRC'??:grr:

Surely you should be with all creditors??:agree::agree::agree:

Well the board are the main creditors, so they'll use that to get out of paying what the club (and by that I mean they themselves through their policies and 'business plans') owe the taxman and no doubt a number of smaller businesses in the local area.

It stinks frankly, as I said earlier in the thread these men should be banned from football at the least, and arguably from sitting on any sort of board ever again. This wasn't an accident or unfortunate chain of events that got Dundee into this mess, it was a conscious decision and plan instigated by the Board. That is simply unacceptable and must be stopped.

ancienthibby
14-10-2010, 05:16 PM
HMRC seem the only body that is willing and capable of putting an end to this madness. I hope they win their appeal to give them preferred creditor status in the same way as every other business is regulated.

HMRC no longer enjoy that status, as I understand it!!

zitelli62
14-10-2010, 06:41 PM
will always be in there debt i think we should help them anyway we can on saturday remember,

SIR ALBERT KIDD 1986,

GGTTH.

Sir David Gray
14-10-2010, 06:50 PM
It is sad but until the football authorities start to police themselves then i'm with the HMRC all the way and if it takes a Dundee or a Liverpool to fold then that's the price to pay to rid ourselves of this financial madness that blights our game

:agree: I totally agree. It needs one club to go out of business so that the other clubs who are being poorly managed will sit up and take notice and realise that they need to take more care with their finances and acknowledge that it's not Monopoly that they're playing. I couldn't care less who the one club to go out of business is (as long as it's not Hibs) but something must change with football finances.

archiebald
14-10-2010, 07:42 PM
Sad terrible should not happen (just get Liegh signed)end off :thumbsup::thumbsup:

alex74
14-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Sad terrible should not happen (just get Liegh signed)end off :thumbsup::thumbsup:hopefully we will sign him tomorrow

alex74
14-10-2010, 07:52 PM
It's a pity they couldn't have got a representative from the bank to sit on the board of directors to oversee the reduction in spending instead of going into administration.

Would that be allowed do you think?dont see why not hasent that happend at rangers

matty_f
14-10-2010, 08:00 PM
hopefully we will sign him tomorrow

Will we not have to wait til January, or do players bumped from clubs going into administration get dispensation from transfer windows?

Kaiser1962
14-10-2010, 08:00 PM
The players that are released will be carefully selected and it wont be done on a "last in, first out" basis. Any that can be construed as being worth a resale value will be kept on and the others deemed to be "worthless" will be cast aside with little or no money or prospects. Its the selection process that makes "administration" for football clubs an utterly scandalous course of action.



Beeb radio says that administration has NOW happened.

Players to be released tomorrow!

Sad. Sad. Sad.

alex74
14-10-2010, 08:04 PM
The players that are released will be carefully selected and it wont be done on a "last in, first out" basis. Any that can be construed as being worth a resale value will be kept on and the others deemed to be "worthless" will be cast aside with little or no money or prospects. Its the selection process that makes "administration" for football clubs an utterly scandalous course of action.maybe we wii sign brian kerr again lol:agree:

Phil D. Rolls
14-10-2010, 08:06 PM
In a way its a disaster for scottish football that Dundee are in so much strife,but I cant believe people are sorry for the fans as it was the boards dodgy decisions to pay over the odds and go into so much debt to try get back to the SPL.What we have to remember that the fans had a seat on the board and owned 30% of the club through DEES FOR LIFE,so that group knew every twist and turn the board,of which they were a part,was taking.Now for the fans representative in the boardroom to be part of this fiasco is shameful to the extreme,and shows that no matter what,power does corrupt

A man sets out seeking justice and ends up wanting a crown. :agree:

Fans are sitting ducks for ruthless businessmen. All it would take is a couple of Russian Hats at an AGM for lunacy to be let loose at any club.

Sir David Gray
14-10-2010, 08:23 PM
Will we not have to wait til January, or do players bumped from clubs going into administration get dispensation from transfer windows?

Surely any players made redundant would become free agents and as such, clubs can sign free agents at any time of the year. :dunno:

scoopyboy
14-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Surely any players made redundant would become free agents and as such, clubs can sign free agents at any time of the year. :dunno:

They would become free agents and would be free to sign for anyone right away.

However they wouldn't be able to play until January as they weren't free agents on August 31st.

zlatan
14-10-2010, 08:36 PM
They would become free agents and would be free to sign for anyone right away.

However they wouldn't be able to play until January as they weren't free agents on August 31st.

I'm sure there is an exception under circumstances such as this.

Bet then again I take a lot of my football knowledge from former Sky One football drama Dream Team.

Danderhall Hibs
14-10-2010, 08:39 PM
I'm sure there is an exception under circumstances such as this.

Bet then again I take a lot of my football knowledge from former Sky One football drama Dream Team.

:hilarious

LancashireHibby
14-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Clubs have already gone bust (Airdrie, Halifax and Chester spring to mind) without being a lesson to other clubs. Why would Dundee be any different?

Sir David Gray
14-10-2010, 09:08 PM
They would become free agents and would be free to sign for anyone right away.

However they wouldn't be able to play until January as they weren't free agents on August 31st.

That's a ridiculous rule.

So a player could effectively become a free agent on September 1st and would be unable to play for anyone else for four months.

I'm surprised that's not been deemed illegal.

matty_f
14-10-2010, 09:10 PM
Surely any players made redundant would become free agents and as such, clubs can sign free agents at any time of the year. :dunno:





They would become free agents and would be free to sign for anyone right away.

However they wouldn't be able to play until January as they weren't free agents on August 31st.

Could they sign right away, or would they need to do a pre-contract? I know that players who are out of contract at the end of a transfer window can sign and play for a team at any time, but I'm not sure if the actual window is a restriction on when you can sign players, or on when you can sign players and have them available to play.

matty_f
14-10-2010, 09:11 PM
That's a ridiculous rule.

So a player could effectively become a free agent on September 1st and would be unable to play for anyone else for four months.

I'm surprised that's not been deemed illegal.

It's not that ridiculous, as clubs would just use that as a loophole to conduct transfer business outside the window.

Danderhall Hibs
14-10-2010, 09:12 PM
That's a ridiculous rule.

So a player could effectively become a free agent on September 1st and would be unable to play for anyone else for four months.

I'm surprised that's not been deemed illegal.

It happened when Man U sacked Roy Keane.


Could they sign right away, or would they need to do a pre-contract? I know that players who are out of contract at the end of a transfer window can sign and play for a team at any time, but I'm not sure if the actual window is a restriction on when you can sign players, or on when you can sign players and have them available to play.

I think they can sign but can't be registered with the SFA (or any FA) to play until the window opens.

scoopyboy
14-10-2010, 09:14 PM
That's a ridiculous rule.

So a player could effectively become a free agent on September 1st and would be unable to play for anyone else for four months.

I'm surprised that's not been deemed illegal.

That's why clubs often release players (often after giving them a bung) on 31st August.

We did it with two or three players at the end of one window, can't remember off the top of my head but possibly Canning and Keenan.

Similarly when we signed JJ we couldn't play him for a couple of months as on 31st August he was still contracted to a Swedish team.

matty_f
14-10-2010, 09:22 PM
It happened when Man U sacked Roy Keane.



I think they can sign but can't be registered with the SFA (or any FA) to play until the window opens.

:aok:

wazoo1875
14-10-2010, 09:23 PM
That's why clubs often release players (often after giving them a bung) on 31st August.

We did it with two or three players at the end of one window, can't remember off the top of my head but possibly Canning and Keenan.

Similarly when we signed JJ we couldn't play him for a couple of months as on 31st August he was still contracted to a Swedish team.

I'm sure Livi got round this by playing someone as an amateur :cool2:

Not sure it would work now though as i think things were tightened up afterwards as a result of(ironically) Dundee being relegated and subsequently complaining about it.

McD
14-10-2010, 09:42 PM
Dundee (first time around), Livingston, Gretna are the Scottish clubs they've pursued - surely that's 3 "smaller examples"?


Fair point mate, as I said, I could've been talking pish lol :greengrin

I thought it was all debts rather than HMRC debts with those clubs, but wouldn't claim to be an expert in any way.

Sir David Gray
14-10-2010, 10:18 PM
That's why clubs often release players (often after giving them a bung) on 31st August.

We did it with two or three players at the end of one window, can't remember off the top of my head but possibly Canning and Keenan.

Similarly when we signed JJ we couldn't play him for a couple of months as on 31st August he was still contracted to a Swedish team.

I realise that clubs often do what you've said but there must be instances where a player is in the manager's plans on August 31st and then at some point over the next couple of months or so, something happens (e.g. a falling out between player and manager) that means the manager releases the player from his contract and he becomes a free agent. That player would effectively become unemployed, even if he had offers of employment, for a period of up to four months.

As I've already said, I am very surprised that this practice has not been challenged by employment lawyers through the courts because I think they would have a case.

hibbysam
14-10-2010, 11:15 PM
Haven't seen this posted yet but just saw on SSN that most of Dundee Football Club's players and staff are expected to lose their jobs.. surely with this guy a born hibee, scoring goals for fun up until first division and now getting him for nothing, all this and still very young, we have to get in first and watch him develop into a scoring machine for the hibs? were struggling in that department so surely he would do a job:confused:

bigstu
14-10-2010, 11:17 PM
i wonder if he's found his level in the first divison

ScottB
14-10-2010, 11:19 PM
What's FIFA / UEFA / the SFA's stance on a situation like this? Presumably those players will have to sit on their hands till January?

Might not be a bad plan for Hibs to offer their better players use of training facilities in the mean time, good opportunity to cast an eye over them etc.

SteveHFC
14-10-2010, 11:20 PM
I would take Griffiths and Harkins from them.

hibbysam
14-10-2010, 11:21 PM
i wonder if he's found his level in the first divison

or maybe he has more to offer in the spl? youll never know until we give him a chance and if hes going for nothing then surely nothing to lose? if he comes good he could be worth a couple of million, if not then all weve lost is some on wages :agree:

RickyS
14-10-2010, 11:29 PM
I would take Griffiths and Harkins from them.

that would be my two as well, but it looks like they could be snapped up when we don't have a manager to sign them! maybe Rod should do a Vlad:greengrin

scoopyboy
15-10-2010, 05:47 AM
I would take Griffiths and Harkins from them.

So would I but the administrator won't let them go for free.

They are the two players he will be looking to get money for.

It will be fringe players and laddies plus management that will catch it.

They will probably appoint a player / manager.

Gala Foxes
15-10-2010, 05:54 AM
I wouldn't think that Administrators PKF and the creditors of Dundee FC would sit back and watch the clubs only assets, as they don't own Dens Park, walk out the door for nothing. The administrators role is to try to see if they can reshape the club in to a viable trading proposition. If they fail the liquidator comes in and tries to realise as much out of the sale of the clubs assets to try to satisfy the outstanding creditors - number 1 of which is HMRC (Crown Creditors).

All in I can't see the valuable players going for nothing - unless that is their contracts are cancelled by non-payment of wages. If I was the administrator I would pay the sellable players and empty the ones that are not

Ritchie
15-10-2010, 06:09 AM
I wouldn't think that Administrators PKF and the creditors of Dundee FC would sit back and watch the clubs only assets, as they don't own Dens Park, walk out the door for nothing. The administrators role is to try to see if they can reshape the club in to a viable trading proposition. If they fail the liquidator comes in and tries to realise as much out of the sale of the clubs assets to try to satisfy the outstanding creditors - number 1 of which is HMRC (Crown Creditors).

All in I can't see the valuable players going for nothing - unless that is their contracts are cancelled by non-payment of wages. If I was the administrator I would pay the sellable players and empty the ones that are not

I think it would be worth looking into though. Don't think they'll be looking for their market value and we would get two quality players. Harkins would be excellent alongside miller in midfield and deek and griffiths would be an interesting frontline

DC_Hibs
15-10-2010, 06:16 AM
I wouldn't think that Administrators PKF and the creditors of Dundee FC would sit back and watch the clubs only assets, as they don't own Dens Park, walk out the door for nothing. The administrators role is to try to see if they can reshape the club in to a viable trading proposition. If they fail the liquidator comes in and tries to realise as much out of the sale of the clubs assets to try to satisfy the outstanding creditors - number 1 of which is HMRC (Crown Creditors).

All in I can't see the valuable players going for nothing - unless that is their contracts are cancelled by non-payment of wages. If I was the administrator I would pay the sellable players and empty the ones that are not

Wondered when the next Griffiths thread would arrive.

I would take him but have read comments from a few Dundee fans that he has been poor this season.
No doubt many will be clamouring to give us reasons for that and will refer to his goals ratio being decent BUT at the end of the day, he should be doing the business in that division if he wants to play at a higher level and he hasn't been.

Billy Stark will of course know plenty about him if he is to come in so if he rates him we could well move in should the situation arise....but then depends on whether Hibs will pay a transfer fee.

The fee required wouldnt be far off the £125k that Dundee paid for him as there'd be no competition for him in Scotland (Old firm not interested, LG not interested in Hearts and no other team can pay a fee) so may depend on English interest and I doubt there would be if they have watched him this season.

Septimus
15-10-2010, 06:29 AM
Might be worth asking Lawrie Reilly what he thinks of these players and basing our approach on his answer. We have some elder statesmen who were class in their day and Reilly clearly has opinions which are based on more than Football Manager.

jonny
15-10-2010, 06:33 AM
i wonder if he's found his level in the first divison

:agree:

Septimus
15-10-2010, 07:08 AM
Sad to see a team in trouble which once had players like Bill Brown, Alan Gilzean, Alfie Boyd, Ken Zeising, Gordon Frew and the incomparable Billy Steel strutting their stuff in a Dens Park. A ground which held something like 60,000 on their best days. Now, of course, we have a system which freezes out teams that could make a positive contribution to the upper ranks. In spite of the immense gulf which now exists between the BIG two and the rest they are not doing all that well.

Split the gate money every week. Increase the size of the top division and stop pandering to the OF in the ridiculous notion that somehow they will perform well in Europe. Divide the TV money up fairly and show games which do not involve the OF.

Football is a team sport and needs teams with a bit of history in the league.

scoopyboy
15-10-2010, 07:29 AM
Sad to see a team in trouble which once had players like Bill Brown, Alan Gilzean, Alfie Boyd, Ken Zeising, Gordon Frew and the incomparable Billy Steel strutting their stuff in a Dens Park. A ground which held something like 60,000 on their best days. Now, of course, we have a system which freezes out teams that could make a positive contribution to the upper ranks. In spite of the immense gulf which now exists between the BIG two and the rest they are not doing all that well.

Split the gate money every week. Increase the size of the top division and stop pandering to the OF in the ridiculous notion that somehow they will perform well in Europe. Divide the TV money up fairly and show games which do not involve the OF.

Football is a team sport and needs teams with a bit of history in the league.

You could apply the same logic to a team that has had Barney Battles, Alfie Conn, Jimmy Wardaugh, Dave Mackay, Jimmy Wardaugh and Hans Eskilsson.

That however wouldn't be sad.

Brooster
15-10-2010, 07:56 AM
Sad to see a team in trouble which once had players like Bill Brown, Alan Gilzean, Alfie Boyd, Ken Zeising, Gordon Frew and the incomparable Billy Steel strutting their stuff in a Dens Park. A ground which held something like 60,000 on their best days. Now, of course, we have a system which freezes out teams that could make a positive contribution to the upper ranks. In spite of the immense gulf which now exists between the BIG two and the rest they are not doing all that well.

Split the gate money every week. Increase the size of the top division and stop pandering to the OF in the ridiculous notion that somehow they will perform well in Europe. Divide the TV money up fairly and show games which do not involve the OF.

Football is a team sport and needs teams with a bit of history in the league.

I will shed no tears if Dundee go out of business. They have lived beyond their means for at least 10 years and are now reaping the 'rewards'. Hibs run a tight ship and in my opinion we should not be feeling sorry for those who dont.

Joe Baker II
15-10-2010, 09:33 AM
I will shed no tears if Dundee go out of business. They have lived beyond their means for at least 10 years and are now reaping the 'rewards'. Hibs run a tight ship and in my opinion we should not be feeling sorry for those who dont.

Sadly Dundee is such an unwelcoming ground to go to (stewards are the most hostile I have ever seen, police almost as bad) and much as would not normally want to see clubs go under, I am not far from making an exception here. And no excuse for not checking if Melville's monies not as guaranteed as they seeme before spending big money (by SFL standards anyway).

Downside as ever is fans (in Dundee's case 20-30,000 who go at least once per season which is substantial) probably lost to the Scottish game though.

Hibs On Tour
15-10-2010, 10:05 AM
It's not that ridiculous, as clubs would just use that as a loophole to conduct transfer business outside the window.

Players released can be signed by any club, regardless of it being outside the window. They cannot however play for that new club until the next window as they were not free agents at the close of the last window.

UNLESS Fifa/Uefa [whoever would decide such things] give a special dispensation based on the circumstances - which there would probably be a reasonable chance of them OK'ing...

With regards Falkirk's point, if there is interest in released players its down to the clubs with interest to take them on as they are allowed to. If they end up paying them for 2-3 months before they can play them, that's their judgement call - spend that 2-3 months to ensure you have a player you want and to prevent other clubs snatching them from you or take the gamble and don't. The rules aren't forcing anyone to be unemployed.

As others have said, those players with most perceived value won't be released however as they'll be regarded as tangible assets of the club and they'll try to sell those assets to the highest bidder - not sure how that would work however. Reckon that's a stick on that they would defo need a special dispensation for [both selling and buying]...

matty_f
15-10-2010, 10:27 AM
I will shed no tears if Dundee go out of business. They have lived beyond their means for at least 10 years and are now reaping the 'rewards'. Hibs run a tight ship and in my opinion we should not be feeling sorry for those who dont.

That's pretty much how I see it. Dundee have shown no regard for the teams that they've taken points off of by fielding players that they cannot afford, nor for the indirect impact on public services caused by making a £400k-odd hole in HMRC's pocket.

If they're not going to play fair with living within their means, then they've got to bite the bullet when it all catches up with them.

sambajustice
15-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Dodds and Chisholm have been released (sacked)...

No idea about players yet.

Danderhall Hibs
15-10-2010, 12:12 PM
Dodds and Chisholm have been released (sacked)...

No idea about players yet.

Really bad news for Radio Scotland listeners and Sportscene viewers. :boo hoo:

Ritchie
15-10-2010, 12:17 PM
*awaits next chapter of the real leigh griffiths blog*

sambajustice
15-10-2010, 12:19 PM
Really bad news for Radio Scotland listeners and Sportscene viewers. :boo hoo:

ha ha, you're not kidding. I signed up to the Sportsound Facebook group (thats where i heard the info) and they've ALREADY got BD back in the fold! He's going to be on SS tonight!!

Westie1875
15-10-2010, 01:13 PM
Colin McMenamin was just interviewed on SSN having been told this morning that he has been let go. Players being told individually and coming out one by one. He stated that the players being let go have been given special permission by Fifa to sign for another club outwith the transfer window.

Part/Time Supporter
15-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Really bad news for Radio Scotland listeners and Sportscene viewers. :boo hoo:

Also keeps up his really good track record as a Jonah.

Relegated Chelsea, Dundee and St. Johnstone. Almost relegated Aberdeen (who have never been) and Dundee United. Rangers first went (kind of) bust when he was there.

Diclonius
15-10-2010, 01:23 PM
Colin McMenamin was just interviewed on SSN having been told this morning that he has been let go. Players being told individually and coming out one by one. He stated that the players being let go have been given special permission by Fifa to sign for another club outwith the transfer window.

Let's get in there and get Leigh. :agree:

derek1875hfc
15-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Mickael Antoine-Curier, Eric Paton, Njazi Kuqi, Paul McHale, Scott Fox, Colin McMenamin, Charlie Grant and Brian Kerr have been told to leave.
And at least two more players could have their contracts terminated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9085810.stm

LancashireHibby
15-10-2010, 02:15 PM
Would have thought, for the time being at least, that they will try and keep hold of Griffiths and get a fee for a pre-contract signing or something along those lines.

bighairyfaeleith
15-10-2010, 02:18 PM
Brian Kerr, oh yes:greengrin

GreenPJ
15-10-2010, 02:55 PM
Surely he must be fitter than Trackys.

Future17
15-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Surely he must be fitter than Trackys.

Need a manager before we can sign players! :wink:

Westie1875
15-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Haven't seen him play for ages but did think when we let him go that he hadn't had much of a chance. Can't see anyone coming in til the new manager is on board though

StarMan10
15-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Unfortuntly Leigh Griffths isnt one of them.... ex hibees brian kerr and anton- curier have been axed

H18sry
15-10-2010, 03:05 PM
Unfortuntly Leigh Griffths isnt one of them.... ex hibees brian kerr and anton- curier have been axed

Could either of them do an unseen job at ER :devil:

millarco
15-10-2010, 03:11 PM
Unfortuntly Leigh Griffths isnt one of them.... ex hibees brian kerr and anton- curier have been axed

Sad to hear, especially with MAC being out injured at the moment. Hope both pick up clubs soon.

Oranje39
15-10-2010, 03:19 PM
I liked what little I seen of him and he did well at Hamilton, I think we could get better long term but he could be a ideal short-term option.

Diclonius
15-10-2010, 03:23 PM
I'd sign him till January if Griffiths isn't available.

NORTHERNHIBBY
15-10-2010, 03:28 PM
This will be a new situation for MAC. Getting the spanish archer from a club when it is not his fault. Mind you, Dundee has the chance to sell him to Hamilton and they passed up on it. No doubt they will be back in for him now.

Andy74
15-10-2010, 03:28 PM
Always liked him. Mobile for a big guy and works really hard. Not the most gifted touch in the world but a useful player that puts centre halfs under pressure.

Trakys might be great but seems miles away from beng fit enough to make any impact.

heretoday
15-10-2010, 03:36 PM
Is that former Scotland midfielder Brian Kerr?

.Sean.
15-10-2010, 03:39 PM
I think MAC will end up back at Hamilton.

HibbyAndy
15-10-2010, 04:00 PM
We should go for Albert Kidd.

TornadoHibby
15-10-2010, 04:11 PM
Always liked him. Mobile for a big guy and works really hard. Not the most gifted touch in the world but a useful player that puts centre halfs under pressure.
Trakys might be great but seems miles away from beng fit enough to make any impact.

Not often we agree Andy, but that is how I see this guy too! He could definately do a turn for us in the short term at least!

millarco
15-10-2010, 04:17 PM
Is he not still out with a knee injury?

CraigK
15-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Is that former Scotland midfielder Brian Kerr?

Apparently he's played in the Champion's League too?

greenlex
15-10-2010, 06:16 PM
Always liked him. Mobile for a big guy and works really hard. Not the most gifted touch in the world but a useful player that puts centre halfs under pressure.

Trakys might be great but seems miles away from beng fit enough to make any impact.
are you daft? He missed an easy header once you know.

Hibernia Na Eir
15-10-2010, 06:17 PM
they wont fold.

The usual will happen - they'll draw a big SPL club in Scottish Cup and make a bomb and a new investor will come in.

:agree:

greenlex
15-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Hibs should bail them out purely from an '86 nostalgia point of view.:)

alex74
15-10-2010, 06:42 PM
Need a manager before we can sign players! :wink:how can rod no do a vlad and sign griffiths

Bishop Hibee
15-10-2010, 06:45 PM
Is Griffiths any better than what we have? Just because he supports Hibs is no reason to sign him.

McD
15-10-2010, 06:54 PM
Can't we agree and pay the fee now, take griffiths and give him a couple of months training with his new teammates before unleashing him in January.


And thats assuming FIFA dont give them dispensation to play for a new club now!

Diclonius
15-10-2010, 07:26 PM
And thats assuming FIFA dont give them dispensation to play for a new club now!

They have.

alex74
15-10-2010, 07:36 PM
Is Griffiths any better than what we have? Just because he supports Hibs is no reason to sign him.Good point maybe have to keep the bench warm with Nishtirooy banging the goals in lol:agree:

camhibby1
15-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Can't we agree and pay the fee now, take griffiths and give him a couple of months training with his new teammates before unleashing him in January.


And thats assuming FIFA dont give them dispensation to play for a new club now!

The admnistrator has publicly stated that there is cash to pay reduced staff numbers until the end of the year. The lay offs today was because of immediate cash flow problems. He's obviously calculated gate receipts, other income etc will keep part of the club going until the end of the year. If beyond that there is no hope - the liquidator comes in puts the assets up for sale (Griffiths et al) conveniently at the beginning of the next transfer window and takes it from there. I guess if Hibs want Griffiths we'll have to wait until the next transfer window.

heretoday
15-10-2010, 08:11 PM
they wont fold.

The usual will happen - they'll draw a big SPL club in Scottish Cup and make a bomb and a new investor will come in.

:agree:

I hope so. I don't want Dundee to fold. They were always good value in the 60s and 70s and of course they were a leading British team in the early 60s.

Football clubs often flirt with disaster but always seem to be saved. Something tells me it might not be so inevitable in this case.

Hibs On Tour
15-10-2010, 08:12 PM
Could either of them do an unseen job at ER :devil:

Certainly did an unseen job here before... :tee hee:

FWIW I think Hamilton will be back in for MAC [regardless of him being injured - they rate him] - tried to get him earlier in the season and Dundee knocked them back - wonder if they're regretting that now? Griffiths is one of their few remaining assets on the playing staff - the administrators will be looking for top dollar for him - they may get special dispensation to sell him just now to raise funds but more likely they're trying to lay off to ensure survival until the next window when they can maybe raise more funds through sales of LG and any others they can get some coin for.

Ultimately though, down to Dundee's fans and local business to ensure their survival, same as with *any* other club. It sounds like they have around 3/4's of the money they need to ensure survival to the end of the season either in place or promised so realistically they could make an appeal to their fans for the rest - if its £100k out of £400k needed, that's only £20 a head for 5000 fans - not much to ask if you are a fan of Dundee or even a fan of another club and concerned about them going out of business.

For me, sad though it is, its down to them to save it - goes around comes around and all that and if you're happy with over-spending to chase success you have to put up and swallow it when this kind of thing happens too...

heretoday
15-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Times like Dundee are going through it must be said we are most fortunate in our money men.

NAE NOOKIE
15-10-2010, 09:02 PM
Dont often stick my head above the parapet on here, but here goes.

I cant believe the number of smug folk on here with no sympathy or even alarm at the possible demise of Dundee.

It wasnt that long ago that we were in the same boat with thousands of fans suckered into buying shares ( if I had had the money I would have been one ) in order to enable a small time, near enough, crook with no money to buy our club.

the upshot of that was that we nearly went out of business in the worst way possible for any football club. At that time we were the ones looking for help and sympathy from the wider football community.

If it hadnt been for a man with no interest in football but a big interest in the community he came from, whos to say we would even be here now?

So instead of speculation as to what we can pick from the carcass of Dundee football club why dont we try and get a Dundee fan onto here with some comments or ideas as to what can be done to save one of Scottish footballs biggest clubs.

This is not England or Spain or Italy etc etc .... We cant afford to lose one of our biggest clubs and I cant believe that there are people on here who cant, or wont, see that.

:bitchy:

Hibs On Tour
15-10-2010, 09:09 PM
Times like Dundee are going through it must be said we are most fortunate in our money men.

Lest we forget that these same money men almost did likewise for us until they learned their lesson the hard way... its not like we were always too wise to be caught up with the same things other have. Just glad we saw the light early enough to be way clear of danger from such things at this stage.

It *will* heartily piss me off however if teams start getting bailed out ala the banks because of the impact their demise would have on the game in general. What reward does that give us for putting our own shop in order at our own cost?...

alex74
15-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Dont often stick my head above the parapet on here, but here goes.

I cant believe the number of smug folk on here with no sympathy or even alarm at the possible demise of Dundee.

It wasnt that long ago that we were in the same boat with thousands of fans suckered into buying shares ( if I had had the money I would have been one ) in order to enable a small time, near enough, crook with no money to buy our club.

the upshot of that was that we nearly went out of business in the worst way possible for any football club. At that time we were the ones looking for help and sympathy from the wider football community.

If it hadnt been for a man with no interest in football but a big interest in the community he came from, whos to say we would even be here now?

So instead of speculation as to what we can pick from the carcass of Dundee football club why dont we try and get a Dundee fan onto here with some comments or ideas as to what can be done to save one of Scottish footballs biggest clubs.

This is not England or Spain or Italy etc etc .... We cant afford to lose one of our biggest clubs and I cant believe that there are people on here who cant, or wont, see that.

:bitchy:F--K them who gave a F--k about us apart from us and SIR TOM

heretoday
15-10-2010, 09:19 PM
Lest we forget that these same money men almost did likewise for us until they learned their lesson the hard way... its not like we were always too wise to be caught up with the same things other have. Just glad we saw the light early enough to be way clear of danger from such things at this stage.

It *will* heartily piss me off however if teams start getting bailed out ala the banks because of the impact their demise would have on the game in general. What reward does that give us for putting our own shop in order at our own cost?...

Who will bail them out? The SFA? Dundee Council? I'm serious.

alex74
15-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Who will bail them out? The SFA? Dundee Council? I'm serious.Hibs if we get griffiths

Albion Hibs
15-10-2010, 09:32 PM
F--K them who gave a F--k about us apart from us and SIR TOM

Poor chat mate.

Agree with others posts in relation how close we can, it was great the Sir Tom stepped in, but what if he didnt.

To give it the above shout is totally disrespectful to those fans who are probably sitting in there houses gutted at the moment.

Hibs On Tour
16-10-2010, 01:04 AM
Dont often stick my head above the parapet on here, but here goes.

I cant believe the number of smug folk on here with no sympathy or even alarm at the possible demise of Dundee.

It wasnt that long ago that we were in the same boat with thousands of fans suckered into buying shares ( if I had had the money I would have been one ) in order to enable a small time, near enough, crook with no money to buy our club.

the upshot of that was that we nearly went out of business in the worst way possible for any football club. At that time we were the ones looking for help and sympathy from the wider football community.

If it hadnt been for a man with no interest in football but a big interest in the community he came from, whos to say we would even be here now?

So instead of speculation as to what we can pick from the carcass of Dundee football club why dont we try and get a Dundee fan onto here with some comments or ideas as to what can be done to save one of Scottish footballs biggest clubs.

This is not England or Spain or Italy etc etc .... We cant afford to lose one of our biggest clubs and I cant believe that there are people on here who cant, or wont, see that.

:bitchy:

Read your post again - you answer your own point. The 'wider football community' did nothing to save Hibs. That was down to Hibs fans and STF. Simple as. I'm sure other clubs were viewing our players ready to pick up who they could for their teams - welcome to the real world. Nothing wrong in that as far as it goes.

NO club has a god-given right to exist regardless of all else. IMHO there have been *far* more clubs in Scotland than can ever hope to be viable for far longer than would have reasonably been expected. It was only ever a matter of time before one of the big boys was in danger of folding.

I've already suggested a way that Dundee fans can save their club from imminent extinction - put their hands in their pockets like we did. 5000 of them stick £20 in the pot that's £100k and according to the reports they'd be OK to the end of the season, thereby giving the administrators some time to try to find a new owner or a financial white knight to support them. Ultimately though, its about Dundee fans getting along to Dens and paying to support their team. Without that, no club can sustain themselves for long.

Salvation is the responsibilty of Dundee's board, fans and local community. Not fans on a Hibs message board.

Brooster
16-10-2010, 02:10 AM
Mr bovril I dont care one jot about other clubs. Hibs are all that matter to me. Dundee can stew in their own juices as far as im concerned.

matty_f
16-10-2010, 06:31 AM
Read your post again - you answer your own point. The 'wider football community' did nothing to save Hibs. That was down to Hibs fans and STF. Simple as. I'm sure other clubs were viewing our players ready to pick up who they could for their teams - welcome to the real world. Nothing wrong in that as far as it goes.

NO club has a god-given right to exist regardless of all else. IMHO there have been *far* more clubs in Scotland than can ever hope to be viable for far longer than would have reasonably been expected. It was only ever a matter of time before one of the big boys was in danger of folding.

I've already suggested a way that Dundee fans can save their club from imminent extinction - put their hands in their pockets like we did. 5000 of them stick £20 in the pot that's £100k and according to the reports they'd be OK to the end of the season, thereby giving the administrators some time to try to find a new owner or a financial white knight to support them. Ultimately though, its about Dundee fans getting along to Dens and paying to support their team. Without that, no club can sustain themselves for long.

Salvation is the responsibilty of Dundee's board, fans and local community. Not fans on a Hibs message board.

:agree: I'd agree with this, and I'll have a lot more sympathy for Dundee if they start selling out through to the end of the season.

As I said elsewhere, when Dundee were taking points off clubs that were living within their means, where they sympathetic to the other club, or have they apologised for it?

Stewboy
16-10-2010, 06:51 AM
Did Dundee FC really give a toss when they shut down local businesses 7 years ago due to non payment? No, so no sympathy from me

As for the fans, as a poster said above they were happy enough to take points off clubs living within themselves

down-the-slope
16-10-2010, 07:15 AM
Dont often stick my head above the parapet on here, but here goes.

I cant believe the number of smug folk on here with no sympathy or even alarm at the possible demise of Dundee.

It wasnt that long ago that we were in the same boat with thousands of fans suckered into buying shares ( if I had had the money I would have been one ) in order to enable a small time, near enough, crook with no money to buy our club.

the upshot of that was that we nearly went out of business in the worst way possible for any football club. At that time we were the ones looking for help and sympathy from the wider football community.

If it hadnt been for a man with no interest in football but a big interest in the community he came from, whos to say we would even be here now?

So instead of speculation as to what we can pick from the carcass of Dundee football club why dont we try and get a Dundee fan onto here with some comments or ideas as to what can be done to save one of Scottish footballs biggest clubs.

This is not England or Spain or Italy etc etc .... We cant afford to lose one of our biggest clubs and I cant believe that there are people on here who cant, or wont, see that.

:bitchy: :agree:


F--K them who gave a F--k about us apart from us and SIR TOM

'Why be thought a fool, when you can open your mouth and remove all possible doubt'.....you have just proved that old saying.

There were many other fans who supported HoH and when fans marched in support there were many Hearts supporters who in their colours marched too in support (which is why the 365 day vitriolic stuff i don't get - fair enough they are rivals and for 90 mins its all about Hibs)

crash
16-10-2010, 07:54 AM
:agree:



'Why be thought a fool, when you can open your mouth and remove all possible doubt'.....you have just proved that old saying.

There were many other fans who supported HoH and when fans marched in support there were many Hearts supporters who in their colours marched too in support (which is why the 365 day vitriolic stuff i don't get - fair enough they are rivals and for 90 mins its all about Hibs)
I went on a march and was at the HOH rally. Dont recall seeing any Hearts fans on the march, there was less than a hundred at ER for the rally, so less than 1% of their fans.
As for Dundee, I refer you back to post #80. I can definitely say we received zero backing from Dundee in 1990.
I think you should maybe get your facts right especially in light of your previous post about people opening their mouths.

Part/Time Supporter
16-10-2010, 08:22 AM
Dundee FC = an alcoholic (with severe liver damage)

Andy74
16-10-2010, 08:40 AM
No sympathy. Said at the time when they signed griffiths etc that this would happen. Did any Dundee fans? Twice in 7 yrs is ridiculous.

We nearly went bust due to daft business ideas from money men that we knew little about not because we were spending too much on players to try and over achieve. And when we realised we did something.

Bostonhibby
16-10-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm finding it harder and harder to feel sorry for dundee. The fans didn't say anything when they where spending big last season despite having been in administration just a couple of years before.

The fans need to realise they have played a huge part in there clubs demise and do something about it.

Clubs are going to go to the wall and all the history in the world won't change that.

This is where I am on this one, I do think football's 3rd rate administrators have to be consistent about the penalties and the way clubs are run needs to change, but we are where we are at the moment. Sadly, the money men ranging from the odd decent ones right through to the absolute chancers continue to thrive in the Wild West environment that is football and there will be more of this as they play Russian Roulette with the finances of clubs in the hope of turning a fast back, basking in reflected glory, or maybe even both. They are operating in an abysmally regulated environment run by amateurs.

I dont have much sympathy for Dundee, mainly because its the second time, and I don't think they are unrelated to the Dundee that, if my memory serves me correctly, wrote to the SFA offering to take the spot left in the Premier League should we have disappeared after Mercers efforts in the early 90's.

Bostonhibby
16-10-2010, 09:46 AM
Read your post again - you answer your own point. The 'wider football community' did nothing to save Hibs. That was down to Hibs fans and STF. Simple as. I'm sure other clubs were viewing our players ready to pick up who they could for their teams - welcome to the real world. Nothing wrong in that as far as it goes.

NO club has a god-given right to exist regardless of all else. IMHO there have been *far* more clubs in Scotland than can ever hope to be viable for far longer than would have reasonably been expected. It was only ever a matter of time before one of the big boys was in danger of folding.

I've already suggested a way that Dundee fans can save their club from imminent extinction - put their hands in their pockets like we did. 5000 of them stick £20 in the pot that's £100k and according to the reports they'd be OK to the end of the season, thereby giving the administrators some time to try to find a new owner or a financial white knight to support them. Ultimately though, its about Dundee fans getting along to Dens and paying to support their team. Without that, no club can sustain themselves for long.

Salvation is the responsibilty of Dundee's board, fans and local community. Not fans on a Hibs message board.

:agree: Actually a bit p'd off at suggestions to the contrary, there was of course the odd bit of support from small %ages of rival fans which I appreciated but it was down to what we, the Hibs people did, who else would we have expected to do it?
It honestly felt like a responsibility to do what you could, I dont think its been replicated, and certainly not early enough by fans of clubs like Dundee, with the same passion, intensity and effect as they glide deludely along on the back of the debt and unsustainable promises.

banchoryhibs
16-10-2010, 10:57 AM
Dont often stick my head above the parapet on here, but here goes.

I cant believe the number of smug folk on here with no sympathy or even alarm at the possible demise of Dundee.

It wasnt that long ago that we were in the same boat with thousands of fans suckered into buying shares ( if I had had the money I would have been one ) in order to enable a small time, near enough, crook with no money to buy our club.



I'd have some sympathy with your view if this was the first time that Dundee got into this predicament - it's not.

As they didn't learn from their first mistake they should expect little sympathy after making the same one again - especially in such a short space of time.

Ultimately football will be much better off when clubs stop being rich men's toys.

--------
16-10-2010, 11:20 AM
Apologies if this has been said already - I haven't been through the whole thread.

HOWEVER...

When we were relegated in 1998, Dundee came up as Div One Champions.

IIRC there was an SPL regulation at the time that said that a club had to have a 10,000 capacity all-seated stadium - which we had. The capacity of ER was 14,800, all seated, and the North and South Stands were in place. This was the first stage of the renewal program which was completed a few months ago with the construction of the new East Stand. we were struggling on the field, but we WERE beginning to put our house in order.

Dens was a completely unrenovated tip - Dundee were spending what little money they had (and a lot more they didn't have) on the team and nothing else. They had made no effort whatsoever to meet the SPL's stadium requirements.

According to the rules, they shouldn't have been promoted. They should have been treated as Falkirk were treated a couple of years later - left in Div One until they had an SPL-compliant ground.

According to the rules we should have been reprieved. Maybe we didn't deserve to be reprieved. Maybe relegation and a season in Div One to regroup was good for us. Then again, relegation might have been the end of us, if we hadn't had STF on our side, McLeish as our manager, and a lot of forward planning going on behind the scenes.

But I don't recollect the "football community" rallying round to support us - or even to enforce their own rules.

Dundee were given time to "bring Dens Park up to standard" - in other words, build those two wee stands behind the goals, the bare minimum required to meet the regulations. Time we weren't given, time Falkirk weren't given, time Livingston weren't given when they were trying to sort things out last year.

The Dundee board were chancers then, and they've been chancers ever since. Living beyond their means and taking points from clubs that ARE trying to live responsibly and sort out their affairs, trying to buy promotion at the expense of other, more responsible clubs and their fans. And now TWICE in administration?

As I understand it, Dundee enticed Gordon Chisholm away from Queen of the South (a decent club, run responsibly) by giving him assurances and undertakings they had neither the intention nor the wherewithal to fulfil. I bet he's wishing he'd stayed in Dumfries now.

I don't like to see any football club go out of business, but Dundee have been chancing their arm for far too long now. Bailing out Dundee isn't bailing out the fans; it's bailing out the Dundee board whose mess this is. IMO let the cards fall as they will - no reason for anyone outside Dens to be concerned here.