Dressing room culture at Easter Road

[ozwoody]

while I am sorry to see Yogi go,it must be a relief for both him and hibs his tenure is finally up,great guy but clearly not up to the job,it got me thinking about our players over last few years and the power these guys have at easter road.

Going back to the days of Tony it seems the players have had a huge input off the pitch as to when a manager gets bounced and the problems a manager has with the players.We hear more of dressing room bust ups,hitting town after dismal performances,refusing to sit on the bench if not in first 11 etc at hibs than we seem to at any other club in the SPL (apart from Le Guen at Ibrox of course) And to listen to Ian Murray defending the current crop of wasters"if they want to go out,they will" stuns me as the words of the vice captain.Looking back.....

Mcleish........bust ups,drinking,"losing the dressing room"

Tony.........guys out on lash,Tony as the mate!

Collins........guys crying to boss because they were getting trained to hard!!!!

Mixu.........lost respect early because he was a teammate not long before

Yogi..........dressing room fights,on the town fights,and guys in the huff

Dont get me wrong,guys going out for a drink is no crime,but to do it on nights where we as supporters are hurting,shows a lack of respect to the club,the manager,and to us.But where is the leadership from the senior players or are the senior guys the ones instigating it?

The new manager I hope has a hard discipline record,he will need it by the looks of it,because the discipline in the changing room is a shambles.

Thoughts?

[Iain G]

while I am sorry to see Yogi go,it must be a relief for both him and hibs his tenure is finally up,great guy but clearly not up to the job,it got me thinking about our players over last few years and the power these guys have at easter road.

Going back to the days of Tony it seems the players have had a huge input off the pitch as to when a manager gets bounced and the problems a manager has with the players.We hear more of dressing room bust ups,hitting town after dismal performances,refusing to sit on the bench if not in first 11 etc at hibs than we seem to at any other club in the SPL (apart from Le Guen at Ibrox of course) And to listen to Ian Murray defending the current crop of wasters"if they want to go out,they will" stuns me as the words of the vice captain.Looking back.....

Mcleish........bust ups,drinking,"losing the dressing room"

Tony.........guys out on lash,Tony as the mate!

Collins........guys crying to boss because they were getting trained to hard!!!!

Mixu.........lost respect early because he was a teammate not long before

Yogi..........dressing room fights,on the town fights,and guys in the huff

Dont get me wrong,guys going out for a drink is no crime,but to do it on nights where we as supporters are hurting,shows a lack of respect to the club,the manager,and to us.But where is the leadership from the senior players or are the senior guys the ones instigating it?

The new manager I hope has a hard discipline record,he will need it by the looks of it,because the discipline in the changing room is a shambles.

Thoughts?

As professional sportsmen, they should't be out on the lash for a big session, endof story... :grr:

[Hibercelona]

Its a lose/lose situation.

If the manager has no control over the dressing room, then players will go out on the lash all the time and not perform on the pitch, which will obviously result in the manager being sacked.

If the manager does have control over the dressing room, the whingers will just go running to a higher power, which will result in the manager being sacked.

I personally feel sorry for any manager who comes to ER these days. The players have a huge superiority complex and are nowhere near as good as they believe themselves to be.

If I became the new manager of Hibernian FC, my first task would be to offload the half of the squad that are wasters and promote a few youngsters to the first team.

I'd rather have some inexperienced hard workers in the squad than over-rated muppets who think they're too good for the club.

[ozwoody]

i guess what surprises me about the whole situation is that its not a new thing at easter road,but something that has been allowed to develop over a few years.
is it down to board,managers or the playing group? why is there no player discipline? and i dont mean pride in the jersey,thats long gone in football,but pride in themselves,it cant be just a "scottish culture" thing,as we have had numerious nationalities over the years,i am just totally at a loss to the answer.

god help the next manager if he doesnt stamp out rotten apples,as we will be here again in less than 2 seasons

[cockneymike]

But the problem is we don't really have any 'senior' players to whom the manager can look to lead the dressing room.

Hogg - isn't very good has been dropped, so his influence would be muted
Murray - is too slow, has barely kicked a ball this season, still respected tby fans, but limited input on the pitch
Rankin - same as Hogg
Hart - new guy, been in an out due to injury
De Graff - started poorly, and dropped for St J game
Riordan - playing well, but too moody to ever be seen as a proper leader, and a history of going out etc
Miller - played at the top level, but occasionally hides during games, and from afar doesn't seem like the leader type,
McBride - decent player, given the captaincy by default, don't know much about his influence around the dressing room
Bamba - wants away, and thinks he's better than Hibs, so is a negative influence.
Nish - see Hogg and Rankin

McGhee was so excited about signing Hartley as he knew that he was someone that he could trust to do what he needed doing in the dressing room, I don't think that we have anyone like that.

[cwilliamson85]

If you are a sportsman that goes out on the lash you obviously dont care about your career.

I would allow it for a couple of weeks when on holiday at the end of the season but be prepared to work it off when you get back.

End of

[stubru59]

With reputedly 16 players out of contract in the summer, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

We can shift (without undue cost) the slackers, the drinkers and the no-users.

[Thigh ar la]

If you are a 'professional footballer' then surely a pre-requisite is to look after yourself and the club. It should be part of the job description. Likewise if you hold a job of responsibility and you go out the night before an early shift, get steaming and bollox up your work. You will have to pay the consequences. Nothing to say that they cant go out in the off-season or at times with no games coming up and in the inetrim go out for a meal with a couple of drinks. I agree that it shows absolutely no respect for the club and its fans. Can you imagine that attitude prevailing at the top clubs after bad results, the fans would not accept it. Surely its a basic requirement of any club and its players?

[cwilliamson85]

If you are a 'professional footballer' then surely a pre-requisite is to look after yourself and the club. It should be part of the job description. Likewise if you hold a job of responsibility and you go out the night before an early shift, get steaming and bollox up your work. You will have to pay the consequences. Nothing to say that they cant go out in the off-season or at times with no games coming up and in the inetrim go out for a meal with a couple of drinks. I agree that it shows absolutely no respect for the club and its fans. Can you imagine that attitude prevailing at the top clubs after bad results, the fans would not accept it. Surely its a basic requirement of any club and its players?

It should not be tolerated at any club! big or small.

[SidBurns]

Wouldn't be my first pick fro the job but you'd like to think Terry Butcher would sort anyone out!?!

[Franck is God]

With reputedly 16 players out of contract in the summer, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

We can shift (without undue cost) the slackers, the drinkers and the no-users.

I personally think that's what Yogi was counting on but the board and the fans got cold feet waiting.

The new manager has to be given the full backing of the board and fans alike to do exactly what is needed and I'm afraid to say that if that means emptying fans favorites for players with a more professional outlook to their footballing career then so be it.

The last manager to do this was Mcleish when he effectively sacked our best player before a cup final that we actually had a chance of winning.

JC tried to do this but was not backed by the board or the fans and walked away as a result.

Mixu couldn't do it and to my regret either did Yogi.

[ozwoody]

i honestly thought murray would be man for the job as team leader in changing room,being at hibs,rangers,norwich he would have seen leaders helping players,pulling players up etc.but seeing his comments in the paper he seems to back the culture in our dressing room to the extent he even questions the fans aspirations as to what we should expect from our team!!

there is,and has been a rotten element in our changing room for over 5 years now,i believe it would take someone like butcher to come in and read them the riot act,anyone doesnt like it......they know where door is,and the fans would know straight away who were the instigators of trouble.

As well as getting a manager with experience,we need a tough one to deal with wasters and malingerers

[hibsbollah]

Its becoming more obvious with every passing day that John Collins was absolutely spot on.

[Peevemor]

Its becoming more obvious with every passing day that John Collins was absolutely spot on.

In what respect?

[--------]

Its becoming more obvious with every passing day that John Collins was absolutely spot on.


How many of his players are still at the club?

It would seem that both Paatelainen and Hughes managed to punt some troublemakers, and then brought in their own crop to replace them....

[jacomo]

Its becoming more obvious with every passing day that John Collins was absolutely spot on.

Completely agree. Recognised an unprofessional attitude at the club and tried to do something about it. He was the man for the job.

[hibsbollah]

In what respect?

In respect of the OP; 'the dressing room culture at Easter Road'.

[--------]

Completely agree. Recognised an unprofessional attitude at the club and tried to do something about it. He was the man for the job.


Hindsight's always 20/20, but I now suspect that our present troubles began when RP apparently failed to back JC in the face of the players' deputation. :agree:

Mind you, I'd reckon that THAT was a lot more complex than it appeared at the time - what on earth was Tommy Craig's role in the club at the time?

[Danderhall Hibs]

With reputedly 16 players out of contract in the summer, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

We can shift (without undue cost) the slackers, the drinkers and the no-users.

We've done that already - I think the stats are 60odd out 40odd in since JC left!


McGhee was so excited about signing Hartley as he knew that he was someone that he could trust to do what he needed doing in the dressing room, I don't think that we have anyone like that.

Excellent point - we've not got a proper captain(s). They're all either focussed on getting out on the peeve or don't have the respect of the others.

[hibsbollah]

what on earth was Tommy Craig's role in the club at the time?

Scouting for talent...i believe he recommended both Brian Kerr and Alan O'Brien, quite an achievement:bitchy:

[--------]

Scouting for talent...i believe he recommended both Brian Kerr and Alan O'Brien, quite an achievement:bitchy:


Oh yes - and eating apples in press conferences.

I sometimes wonder how JC would have done without Uncle Toamy's "experience" to "guide" him.... :cool2:

[ShanksSaidNo]

while I am sorry to see Yogi go,it must be a relief for both him and hibs his tenure is finally up,great guy but clearly not up to the job,it got me thinking about our players over last few years and the power these guys have at easter road.

Going back to the days of Tony it seems the players have had a huge input off the pitch as to when a manager gets bounced and the problems a manager has with the players.We hear more of dressing room bust ups,hitting town after dismal performances,refusing to sit on the bench if not in first 11 etc at hibs than we seem to at any other club in the SPL (apart from Le Guen at Ibrox of course) And to listen to Ian Murray defending the current crop of wasters"if they want to go out,they will" stuns me as the words of the vice captain.Looking back.....

Mcleish........bust ups,drinking,"losing the dressing room"

Tony.........guys out on lash,Tony as the mate!

Collins........guys crying to boss because they were getting trained to hard!!!!

Mixu.........lost respect early because he was a teammate not long before

Yogi..........dressing room fights,on the town fights,and guys in the huff

Dont get me wrong,guys going out for a drink is no crime,but to do it on nights where we as supporters are hurting,shows a lack of respect to the club,the manager,and to us.But where is the leadership from the senior players or are the senior guys the ones instigating it?

The new manager I hope has a hard discipline record,he will need it by the looks of it,because the discipline in the changing room is a shambles.

Thoughts?
In principle I agree with you, it sounds like thats exactly what we need however the alarming thing is the last time we had a hard task master type (Collins) the players ran to Petrie complaining about him demanding they get in shape, live their life's right etc. Petrie bowed to that pressure and Collins was no more! Based on all our managers post Mowbray, I have lost all faith in Petrie's ability to pick the right man for the job..

[--------]

In principle I agree with you, it sounds like thats exactly what we need however the alarming thing is the last time we had a hard task master type (Collins) the players ran to Petrie complaining about him demanding they get in shape, live their life's right etc. Petrie bowed to that pressure and Collins was no more! Based on all our managers post Mowbray, I have lost all faith in Petrie's ability to pick the right man for the job..



NOW you're getting close to crux of the matter. :agree:

[HibeeB]

Hindsight's always 20/20, but I now suspect that our present troubles began when RP apparently failed to back JC in the face of the players' deputation. :agree:

Mind you, I'd reckon that THAT was a lot more complex than it appeared at the time - what on earth was Tommy Craig's role in the club at the time?

I'd say it goes back further than that.

Brebner, McManus, Brown and Riordan were all 'a bit wild' when they were starting out. Fair enough they all moved on and Derek has come back a more focused player, but the general attitude was poor at the time. If there had been more professional players around with a bit of influence their behaviour (the young ones) wouldn't have been tolerated. There's a lack of application around the dressing room at ER and it is tolerated at the highest level it seems to me. And has been for some time. Institutionalised lazyism :bitchy:

[blackpoolhibs]

Excellent point - we've not got a proper captain(s). They're all either focussed on getting out on the peeve or don't have the respect of the others.

I said this a few weeks ago when the transfer window was open. I hate referring to hearts, but they went out a few years ago and brought Pressley back to the club, someone who was a captain a leader, they also brought back McPherson. Both players were winners, both whatever you think of their qualities gave everything.

We have nobody like them at the club, and haven't for a long long time.

[basehibby]

while I am sorry to see Yogi go,it must be a relief for both him and hibs his tenure is finally up,great guy but clearly not up to the job,it got me thinking about our players over last few years and the power these guys have at easter road.

Going back to the days of Tony it seems the players have had a huge input off the pitch as to when a manager gets bounced and the problems a manager has with the players.We hear more of dressing room bust ups,hitting town after dismal performances,refusing to sit on the bench if not in first 11 etc at hibs than we seem to at any other club in the SPL (apart from Le Guen at Ibrox of course) And to listen to Ian Murray defending the current crop of wasters"if they want to go out,they will" stuns me as the words of the vice captain.Looking back.....

Mcleish........bust ups,drinking,"losing the dressing room"

Tony.........guys out on lash,Tony as the mate!

Collins........guys crying to boss because they were getting trained to hard!!!!

Mixu.........lost respect early because he was a teammate not long before

Yogi..........dressing room fights,on the town fights,and guys in the huff

Dont get me wrong,guys going out for a drink is no crime,but to do it on nights where we as supporters are hurting,shows a lack of respect to the club,the manager,and to us.But where is the leadership from the senior players or are the senior guys the ones instigating it?

The new manager I hope has a hard discipline record,he will need it by the looks of it,because the discipline in the changing room is a shambles.

Thoughts?

You are taking Murray's quote totally out of context in a misleading way (do you work for the record/sun?!? :wink:)
If you re-read the interview you'll se that Murray's comment was actually in defence of the manager(s) at ER and elsewhere as opposed to wayward players - ie the players are grown adults and the manager cannot be expected to act as their nanny, following them about out of hours - ergo - "if they want to go out they will"

Apart from that though I agree with the tenor of your post - there does seem to be an ongoing discipline problem at ER and it needs sorting out. :agree:

[sahib]

How many of his players are still at the club?

It would seem that both Paatelainen and Hughes managed to punt some troublemakers, and then brought in their own crop to replace them....

Until we get the first crop of android/robot players then each manager will sign human beings and these will come with all the frailties of the species.
I would rather watch a George Best, Jim Baxter or a Willie Hamilton than a super fit half-miler masquerading as a footballer. We could sign more muslims and the problem would be sorted of course.

[basehibby]

I said this a few weeks ago when the transfer window was open. I hate referring to hearts, but they went out a few years ago and brought Pressley back to the club, someone who was a captain a leader, they also brought back McPherson. Both players were winners, both whatever you think of their qualities gave everything.

We have nobody like them at the club, and haven't for a long long time.

Ian Murray has something of that about him IMO - although you're right there have been precious few strong leaders at ER for a long time.

[ozwoody]

In principle I agree with you, it sounds like thats exactly what we need however the alarming thing is the last time we had a hard task master type (Collins) the players ran to Petrie complaining about him demanding they get in shape, live their life's right etc. Petrie bowed to that pressure and Collins was no more! Based on all our managers post Mowbray, I have lost all faith in Petrie's ability to pick the right man for the job.

I think to be honest,petrie knew he failed by taking players position on jc,and i am hoping he wont make same mistake again,but any manager worth his salt will do reasearch and demand that he has last word on discipline,as its no secret what happened to jc,and a manager like butcher,or even clarke would not stand for that

[Dirkster23]

I said this a few weeks ago when the transfer window was open. I hate referring to hearts, but they went out a few years ago and brought Pressley back to the club, someone who was a captain a leader, they also brought back McPherson. Both players were winners, both whatever you think of their qualities gave everything.

We have nobody like them at the club, and haven't for a long long time.

I think that's the type of player Yogi hoped he'd signed in De Graaf. An experienced player who came from a top league and had been a captain for the last 4 years.

As much as it wouldn't have been a popular signing (and a position we had cover in), Hartley would have been a great signing for us. IMO he's the type of leader we need in the team.

[Jack]

Completely agree. Recognised an unprofessional attitude at the club and tried to do something about it. He was the man for the job.

Completely agree with you a wee bit :wink:

JC might have been the man for the job when he identified the problem but it would appear that he was not the man for the job when it came to find a way to resolve the problem.

Shame for JC, shame for all these fallen heroes [managers].

[147lothian]

The bust ups have gone on for too long, there must be a few over inflated egos in the dressing room. It seems like our last three managers have lost the dressing room, none of them may have been perfect but i think some of the players need to take a good hard look at themselves.

That said, for me Yogi not changing things in Perth when we were playing absymal was the last straw, the very least we can ask of any manager is that he goes to the bench if those on the park are not performing

[Riordans Boots]

As professional sportsmen, they should't be out on the lash for a big session, endof story... :grr:

:agree: :top marks

[patlowe]

while I am sorry to see Yogi go,it must be a relief for both him and hibs his tenure is finally up,great guy but clearly not up to the job,it got me thinking about our players over last few years and the power these guys have at easter road.

Going back to the days of Tony it seems the players have had a huge input off the pitch as to when a manager gets bounced and the problems a manager has with the players.We hear more of dressing room bust ups,hitting town after dismal performances,refusing to sit on the bench if not in first 11 etc at hibs than we seem to at any other club in the SPL (apart from Le Guen at Ibrox of course) And to listen to Ian Murray defending the current crop of wasters"if they want to go out,they will" stuns me as the words of the vice captain.Looking back.....

Mcleish........bust ups,drinking,"losing the dressing room"

Tony.........guys out on lash,Tony as the mate!

Collins........guys crying to boss because they were getting trained to hard!!!!

Mixu.........lost respect early because he was a teammate not long before

Yogi..........dressing room fights,on the town fights,and guys in the huff

Dont get me wrong,guys going out for a drink is no crime,but to do it on nights where we as supporters are hurting,shows a lack of respect to the club,the manager,and to us.But where is the leadership from the senior players or are the senior guys the ones instigating it?

The new manager I hope has a hard discipline record,he will need it by the looks of it,because the discipline in the changing room is a shambles.

Thoughts?

A lot of this post is based on pure speculation IMO.

I don't really remember McLeish losing the dressing room, he was pretty hard on Latapy when he went out too much and generally gave hibs an air of discipline.
Mowbray often spoke of the importance of not drinking (he admittedly could have done more but it's tough to control a bunch of young guys in the Scottish drinking culture).
Mixu lost the fans' respect as he was pretty much crap as manager, don't remember the players not having respect for him.


In terms of the current squad, beyond Riordan (who most on here are absolutely dying to see sign a new contract), who's left that behaves/has behaved in the way you describe? Hogg/Murray/Miller are model pros and the young guys coming through look to appreciate the importance of fitness and discipline.

Therefore, I think your post is designed to rile as discipline is not the issue with this hibs team. Try poor ability and a lack of creativity, coherence and confidence.

[ozwoody]

You are taking Murray's quote totally out of context in a misleading way (do you work for the record/sun?!? :wink:)
If you re-read the interview you'll se that Murray's comment was actually in defence of the manager(s) at ER and elsewhere as opposed to wayward players - ie the players are grown adults and the manager cannot be expected to act as their nanny, following them about out of hours - ergo - "if they want to go out they will"

Apart from that though I agree with the tenor of your post - there does seem to be an ongoing discipline problem at ER and it needs sorting out. :agree:

Does anyone work for those two rags? it makes our team look like grafters!

The reason i took that quote out was instead of blasting player attitudes like any senior member of the team he had a ,perceived,flippant answer.
We all know these guys are adults,but as a club they are as often on the front page as they are on the back:confused: for too long its been going on,and thats why we need a strong experienced manager that takes no prisoners in the discipline area.The partying culture has to stop,because we see headlines such as "footballers on the lash" etc,we just know what club they are from.and i cant keep blaming the glasgow press for wandering up george street and ignoring other team players but always finding ours

imho

[Dashing Bob S]

Murrays comments about our home record seem indicative of the culture of laziness and complacency at ER. There seems to be something in the phrases 'competitive game' and 'professional sportsmen' that they repeatedly fail to grasp and throw a sulk when someone has the audacity to point it out to them.

One great thing JH left us was a dressing room full of players on short-term contracts. As an industry pro football is in a terrible state in this country, with around 33per cent of the players going to go over the next 18 months. However, you would never think it hanging around East Mains or George Street.

Whoever comes in two things seem certain 1. A massive turnover in the playing staff over the next 18 months 2. A more disciplined, harder working united squad.

[RIP]

It's not the dressing room culture that's to blame

The problem is when the player joins the club. The Chairman does all the wheeling and dealing with the player and his agent. The "manager of the month" is Waaaay down the pecking order in these discussions. The player is left in no doubt that Petrie is the gaffer, the power.

But then he is handed over to the coach. Straight into the fitba side. After that the gaffer/chairman disnae want to know

The player does his bit at training (minimum working hours as per his contract) and puts in a shift on the park on a Saturday. He is then free to live his life any way he pleases

There is not now and never has been (under Petrie) the continuity on the football side of the business that would produce a cohesive team/captain/player mentality. One where there was a real spirit about the team.

We have seen in in patches under Mowbray and Collins. But if the organisation lacks this spirit, ambition and drive - no temporary manager will ever be able to sustain it.

Not under the present set up anyway. We just are not and have not been for a decade a true football business

.......I'm away to slash my wrists

[--------]

Until we get the first crop of android/robot players then each manager will sign human beings and these will come with all the frailties of the species.
I would rather watch a George Best, Jim Baxter or a Willie Hamilton than a super fit half-miler masquerading as a footballer. We could sign more muslims and the problem would be sorted of course.


I agree with you, but I have to say you've just named three of the biggest boozehounds in football history there, sahib.

And three of the most ill-disciplined players imaginable.

Also players of unmatched skill and ability - who don't exist nowadays, or at least, not at any level presently attainable by Hibs.

And each of them eventually defeated a manager a lot tougher and harder than any manager is allowed to be nowadays, what with agents and employment laws and the tabloid press and all. Even Busby, Symon and Stein couldn't control them in the end. Self-destruction's the expression that comes to mind.

IMO Scottish football has to move away from the booze culture if we're to progress. Unfortunately, booze is a huge part of our society and it's considered acceptable for everyone, even for alleged athletes, to over-indulge. "A good night out" usually means getting blootered, after all.

It IS possible to be a gifted, skillful and graceful footballer, and live a sensible and moderate lifestyle.

I don't know what the answer is - for the gifted players to realise that they can be so much more gifted if they look after themselves? For clubs to institute codes of conduct and regulatory measures (breathalysers at training, blood tests?) to enforce a more disciplined approach to the game? And then banning players who infringe?

I don't want to watch robots either, but I'm getting tired of "Hibs players in night-club fracas" stories, and VERY tired of the club's apparent inability to deal with the situation.

[--------]

It's not the dressing room culture that's to blame

The problem is when the player joins the club. The Chairman does all the wheeling and dealing with the player and his agent. The "manager of the month" is Waaaay down the pecking order in these discussions. The player is left in no doubt that Petrie is the gaffer, the power.

But then he is handed over to the coach. Straight into the fitba side. After that the gaffer/chairman disnae want to know

The player does his bit at training (minimum working hours as per his contract) and puts in a shift on the park on a Saturday. He is then free to live his life any way he pleases

There is not now and never has been (under Petrie) the continuity on the football side of the business that would produce a cohesive team/captain/player mentality. One where there was a real spirit about the team.

We have seen in in patches under Mowbray and Collins. But if the organisation lacks this spirit, ambition and drive - no temporary manager will ever be able to sustain it.

Not under the present set up anyway. We just are not and have not been for a decade a true football business

.......I'm away to slash my wrists



I think you're right. :top marks

[ozwoody]

A lot of this post is based on pure speculation IMO.

I don't really remember McLeish losing the dressing room, he was pretty hard on Latapy when he went out too much and generally gave hibs an air of discipline.
Mowbray often spoke of the importance of not drinking (he admittedly could have done more but it's tough to control a bunch of young guys in the Scottish drinking culture).
Mixu lost the fans' respect as he was pretty much crap as manager, don't remember the players not having respect for him.

In terms of the current squad, beyond Riordan (who most on here are absolutely dying to see sign a new contract), who's left that behaves/has behaved in the way you describe? Hogg/Murray/Miller are model pros and the young guys coming through look to appreciate the importance of fitness and discipline.

Therefore, I think your post is designed to rile as discipline is not the issue with this hibs team. Try poor ability and a lack of creativity, coherence and confidence.

I am going back over past 5 years or so,no intention to rile in slightest as a few posters agree with me as some dont,thats the beauty of the forum,just like a pub without the barmaid.

while mixus tenure was short,and in your words a crap manager(although that manager masterminded our downfall in the cup) there were plenty of rumours,i know this forum is built on rumours,about fights behind the scenes,players not wanting to play etc.

Mowbray had a hell of a tough job,i dont agree with the "scottish drinking culture" as he had a lot of nationalities playing here at time.....but they were great to watch!

Nowadays,apart from the odd drinking session we hear about......last saturday included,we seem to be on front pages for players having boxing matches in the changing rooms (bamba/nish?) players refusing to sit on the bench,SENIOR players walking off the training ground (not very model professional im sure you would agree) and this is whats frustrates me,these guys have a bloody good life,decent wage,kids adoring them,the chance to wear the green,and it seems to me they disrespect it.....and us as supporters. but its not a new thing,and that was reason for the op

just my opinion of course

[blackpoolhibs]

Ian Murray has something of that about him IMO - although you're right there have been precious few strong leaders at ER for a
long time.

I think that was the case a few years ago, but not now. I dont believe he's good enough for a team that wants to compete at the top end of the table


I think that's the type of player Yogi hoped he'd signed in De Graaf. An experienced player who came from a top league and had been a captain for the last 4 years.

As much as it wouldn't have been a popular signing (and a position we had cover in), Hartley would have been a great signing for us. IMO he's the type of leader we need in the team.

Personally i think Yogi got this signing wrong. He does not look to me like a leader. He does not grab the game by the scruff of it neck, he's another i think has seen his best days.

[Cropley10]

NOW you're getting close to crux of the matter. :agree:

Makes me wonder who the real boss at ER is - the Manager or the Chairman...?

Reading between the lines, Collins, Mixu and Yogi have all suggested they weren't.

[stubru59]

It's not the dressing room culture that's to blame

The problem is when the player joins the club. The Chairman does all the wheeling and dealing with the player and his agent. The "manager of the month" is Waaaay down the pecking order in these discussions. The player is left in no doubt that Petrie is the gaffer, the power.

But then he is handed over to the coach. Straight into the fitba side. After that the gaffer/chairman disnae want to know

The player does his bit at training (minimum working hours as per his contract) and puts in a shift on the park on a Saturday. He is then free to live his life any way he pleases

There is not now and never has been (under Petrie) the continuity on the football side of the business that would produce a cohesive team/captain/player mentality. One where there was a real spirit about the team.

We have seen in in patches under Mowbray and Collins. But if the organisation lacks this spirit, ambition and drive - no temporary manager will ever be able to sustain it.

Not under the present set up anyway. We just are not and have not been for a decade a true football business

.......I'm away to slash my wrists

What you've just said is nicely packaged free of bull-**** common sense.

There's not a lot of that around, I'm afraid.

[--------]

Makes me wonder who the real boss at ER is - the Manager or the Chairman...?

Reading between the lines, Collins, Mixu and Yogi have all suggested they weren't.


I'd say that the chairman will always be the real boss, simply because he can hire or fire the team manager. The only managers of whom this isn't true are those like Ferguson at Manchester United who have been around so long and achieved so much that they're effectively untouchable.

The question that I think our board has to address is how far and how successfully they're delegating their authority to the manager in regard to the team.

Do they appoint the guy and let him get on with it? Or do they limit his authority in the eyes of the players? Does the manager have the last word in who comes to the club? Or in who doesn't? In who plays? And in who doesn't play?

IMO there's no inherent problem in a hierarchy of authority in a club, provided all the different people are pulling together, and provided that the manager knows he's in charge of the team, and the players know that the manager is their boss and that they won't be allowed to undermine him with the board members or chairman.

The last bit (underlined) I suspect was lost when the deputation went to RP about John Collins and RP didn't just send them packing.

[HFC 0-7]

Until we get the first crop of android/robot players then each manager will sign human beings and these will come with all the frailties of the species.
I would rather watch a George Best, Jim Baxter or a Willie Hamilton than a super fit half-miler masquerading as a footballer. We could sign more muslims and the problem would be sorted of course.

I think everyone would rather see george best types, but we have very average players that are unfit and bevvy merchants! If you have limited footballing talent you need to make up for it elsewhere and to me that would be discipline and fitness. Lets not forget that keeping these footballers fit and healthy would lengthen their career as well.

Collins had it spot on, there is no place in a football club for slackers, if you let even one get away with it, it will cause ripples through the dressing room. No one is bigger than the club, they should do as they are told, if they dont like it then they should be emptied and IMO the manager should be able to come out and tell us why that player has been emptied so that he is not crucified.

I would love to pick up a newspaper and hear that hibs have a very strict and tough regime and that some players didnt like it or couldnt hack it. It shows who really wants to be at the club.

[Gala Foxes]

Some of our players need to have a good hard look at themselves - if stories and rumours are true we need a serious injection of commitment and discipline.

We have been carrying a number of passengers for the last 10 months

[weonlywon6-2]

In principle I agree with you, it sounds like thats exactly what we need however the alarming thing is the last time we had a hard task master type (Collins) the players ran to Petrie complaining about him demanding they get in shape, live their life's right etc. Petrie bowed to that pressure and Collins was no more! Based on all our managers post Mowbray, I have lost all faith in Petrie's ability to pick the right man for the job.

I think to be honest,petrie knew he failed by taking players position on jc,and i am hoping he wont make same mistake again,but any manager worth his salt will do reasearch and demand that he has last word on discipline,as its no secret what happened to jc,and a manager like butcher,or even clarke would not stand for that

is there not a possibility that petrie brought in yogi because he has a no nonsense attitude to sort out the dressing room??

[1875 NO 1]

Makes me wonder who the real boss at ER is - the Manager or the Chairman...?

Reading between the lines, Collins, Mixu and Yogi have all suggested they weren't.

100% rod. From what I was told Yogi wanted troublemakers disciplined and or sold. Did not get backed by Rod. Because these players were financial assets.

If it was a Thicot type player causing issues he would have been out the door big time

[silverhibee]

100% rod. From what I was told Yogi wanted troublemakers disciplined and or sold. Did not get backed by Rod. Because these players were financial assets.

If it was a Thicot type player causing issues he would have been out the door big time

Didn't stop them disciplining Riordan for his obvious comment regarding the state of the pitch.
But i do agree Rod is in charge, the players know that too.

[leithsansiro]

The dressing room malaise, the general acceptance that it's okay not to be fully focussed or committed, has to stop.

If you or I turned up at work and appeared to consistently fail to apply any effort, we'd be in massive bother.

[Bookkeeper]

I'd say that the chairman will always be the real boss, simply because he can hire or fire the team manager. The only managers of whom this isn't true are those like Ferguson at Manchester United who have been around so long and achieved so much that they're effectively untouchable.

The question that I think our board has to address is how far and how successfully they're delegating their authority to the manager in regard to the team.

Do they appoint the guy and let him get on with it? Or do they limit his authority in the eyes of the players? Does the manager have the last word in who comes to the club? Or in who doesn't? In who plays? And in who doesn't play?

IMO there's no inherent problem in a hierarchy of authority in a club, provided all the different people are pulling together, and provided that the manager knows he's in charge of the team, and the players know that the manager is their boss and that they won't be allowed to undermine him with the board members or chairman.

The last bit (underlined) I suspect was lost when the deputation went to RP about John Collins and RP didn't just send them packing.

I wonder what part Amanda Jones (director and employment law specialist) has played in giving advice to the board regarding treatment of employees (the players).

Football is a bit of a prehistoric arena for employer/employee relations, where I suspect strength of character and a harsh word (sometimes physical brute force) has won out for a manager over the years. And when that has failed the player was punted with a bit of cash.

If the board are treating the players within the same framework of employment law available to the rest of us, then Petrie/Lindsay will have to listen to complaints from players about their manager. The problem as you say is if/when the board take the players side over the manager, even if it is done legitimately.

Opens a whole can of worms and leaves a situation that players could exploit for their benefit and the detriment of the team. I suspect this happened with Collins and may have been a factor with Yogi.

You'd need amazing man management skills to be a manager nowadays and maybe even a degree in employment law. :rolleyes:

[ozwoody]

As it says in my name,im in oz,have been for three years,and i am amazed the difference in discipline in the rugby league here as to football there,My team here,Sydney Roosters were dead last last season due to overpaid underachievers..new coach comes in,bins or gets rid of wasters and drunks,brings in young guys,hey presto! grand finalists one year on.A case in point...Jake friend,good young player,too bigheaded tho,thought he had made it,few run ins with law over drink etc,club sacks him and makes him sign a no drink contract for a year,he has to work in a sandwich shop to earn a crust(boom boom) but he trains with the junior club all year puts in the graft,and after coach reports,is welcomed back and has an outstanding season.....maybe football players could lern a thing or two from this young guy?

[HibeeB]

As it says in my name,im in oz,have been for three years,and i am amazed the difference in discipline in the rugby league here as to football there,My team here,Sydney Roosters were dead last last season due to overpaid underachievers..new coach comes in,bins or gets rid of wasters and drunks,brings in young guys,hey presto! grand finalists one year on.A case in point...Jake friend,good young player,too bigheaded tho,thought he had made it,few run ins with law over drink etc,club sacks him and makes him sign a no drink contract for a year,he has to work in a sandwich shop to earn a crust(boom boom) but he trains with the junior club all year puts in the graft,and after coach reports,is welcomed back and has an outstanding season.....maybe football players could lern a thing or two from this young guy?

Could certainly do with some extra staff in the pie stands at ER.

Mind you, they would give the pie to the wrong guy a lot :rolleyes:

[Ed De Gramo]

Its becoming more obvious with every passing day that John Collins was absolutely spot on.

He brings in his own players and then bolts when the results aren't going his way....

What a guy :bitchy: