Scottish Islamic University

[Sylar]

I don't know if anyone noticed this story, but it was being run in the West Lothian Courier this week.

http://www.westlothiancourier.co.uk/west-lothian-news/2010/09/30/plans-afoot-for-islamic-university-62405-27367174/

The land obviously still belongs to NHS Lothian, but talks are underway to potentially sell this land to the Islamic Trust, to build a University entirely for students of Muslim Faith in the old site of Bangour Village Hospital.

I don't understand this need for segregation in all honesty - there are MANY Muslims at Universities all over the world, and indeed Scotland. Most Scottish Universities (I'd say all Universities, but don't have figures to validate them) have a society/centre/facilities for people of ALL religious persuasions.

I've never been able to get my head around segregating children/young adults/students based on their religion. All schools should have religious teaching as part of their curriculum, but I mean ALL elements of religion - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, etc etc and not brainwashed in the Dogma of one specific religion.

[ballengeich]

http://www.charitytimes.com/ct/Charity_Commission_Mohiuddin_Trust.php

A report on the group planning to use the site.

[heretoday]

I don't see a problem. Religion is very important to large sections of the world's population and if they want to study and live within a religious environment before they go out into the world that's ok.

As you say, there are plenty of Muslims who study at multi-ethnic universities.

I think it's quite an interesting move. It doesn't have to be a sinister thing or "brainwashing".

You can't force people to integrate.

[Gatecrasher]

If it is to go any further there has to be a positive reaction from the local people. There is a danger that any negative publicity about it will kill it at this stage.

a strong possibility if the above is true

[Sylar]

Seems the key argument against institutions which are predominately focused upon Dogmatic teachings are the teaching of extremist viewpoints. Who regulates the teachings which go on in these religious educational institutes? I don't mean purely Islamic here - teaching from a particular belief system is dangerous, biased and can lead to a potentially warped world view. Consider the extreme Christian belief system that prehistoric fossils are planted as a test from God and that dinosaurs didn't exist. Consider also the failed Detroit airline bomber, Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab.

He studied at an Islamic University, where he allegedly developed his extremist viewpoints. I'm aware MANY extreme viewpoints/opinions are found floating around Universities, as young students are so open to learning, that they often become exposed to specific ideologies; but surely in an institute which teaches from a specific agenda or belief system, these extreme views are going to be more widespread and easily shared?

I'd like to point out that this is purely for discussion - I'm trying to present both sides of a potential argument and hope it's not coming across as opinion.

[ballengeich]

I'd like to point out that this is purely for discussion - I'm trying to present both sides of a potential argument and hope it's not coming across as opinion.

In the same spirit, what constitutes a university in the UK? Will any qualifications the proposed institute awards be subject to the same checks on standards as other educational establishments?

[EH6 Hibby]

How does an Islamic University work? I'm assuming you would only be accepted if you were a practicing Muslim, is that not racist? Are there any other universities that only educate a particular faith?

[PeeJay]

Is it not the case in Scotland that "all schools run by education authorities in Scotland are required to be open to pupils of all denominations."? Does this also apply to universities?

[IWasThere2016]

I'm with you S. We're preached at for tolerance etc but it is hardly encouraged by separatism! Universities and Colleges are encouraged and funded to 'widen access' so why should the Government allow this to happen? The Government will after all sanction the sale of an NHS asset.

[Removed]

I'm with you S. We're preached at for tolerance etc but it is hardly encouraged by separatism! Universities and Colleges are encouraged and funded to 'widen access' so why should the Government allow this to happen? The Government will after all sanction the sale of an NHS asset.

It's only us that has to be tolerant though.Not in the muslim dictionary imo

[Pete]

I don't see a problem. Religion is very important to large sections of the world's population and if they want to study and live within a religious environment before they go out into the world that's ok.



I'm not sure it is. I think too many people are brainwashed into believing in a certain religion by their parents before they are old enough to even go to the toilet themselves.

Any educational facility should be completely secular in my opinion. As you say, these students haven't been out into the world yet and this type of institution is simply carrying on the indoctrination process during their formative years.

Why not keep all religious leanings out of education and encourage choice through education? By all means let students study religions but to have specific centres with religious entry criteria and bias in the curriculum is contradicting what these places should be all about...open minded learning that encourages people to make their own choices, form their own views and develop as an individual.

[IWasThere2016]

I agree 65bd - a mosque by Ground Zero .. What chances of a new synagogue/church/chapel next to some site of muslim suffering/loss etc?

[Mibbes Aye]

I agree 65bd - a mosque by Ground Zero .. What chances of a new synagogue/church/chapel next to some site of muslim suffering/loss etc?

Except it's not a mosque - it's a multi-faith community centre that includes a Muslim prayer space, alongside gyms, a swimming pool, a cinema theatre and art galleries and most likely a Starbucks and a Ben and Jerry's, IIRC. So why would you call it a mosque TQM?

And was the WTC site really one of Christian suffering/loss, because that's how you seem to be equating it?

There's a lot of things that are unattractive about Islam to me, and a lot of things that are unattractive about Judaism and Christianity too - both of which are far closer to Islam than we seem prepared to acknowledge. At the same time, there are teachings I would consider very positive in all three of these faith groupings.

It's undoubted that there are people who perpetrate wicked acts and say it is in the name of their religion. At the moment, we are talking about people who would use terrorism to create fear, to kill innocents, to try and bring down our government and reshape our society into something barbaric, foreign and alien to us.

That's the perception of fundamentalist Islam. And it's no different from how Catholicism was portrayed a couple of hundred years ago, of course. And while there were very active plots to destabilise this country and overthrow the government and monarchy, it doesn't mean that even the majority of Catholics wanted anything other than to live their life in peace, contribute to society and worship in their own way, even if it was viewed with scorn and hatred.

It's very easy to limit yourself. Very easy to think in black and white. Very easy to fear and hate people for being different. It's not much of a life though.

[Pete]

Except it's not a mosque - it's a multi-faith community centre that includes a Muslim prayer space, alongside gyms, a swimming pool, a cinema theatre and art galleries and most likely a Starbucks and a Ben and Jerry's, IIRC. So why would you call it a mosque TQM?

And was the WTC site really one of Christian suffering/loss, because that's how you seem to be equating it?

There's a lot of things that are unattractive about Islam to me, and a lot of things that are unattractive about Judaism and Christianity too - both of which are far closer to Islam than we seem prepared to acknowledge.

It's undoubted that there are people who perpetrate wicked acts and say it is in the name of their religion. At the moment, we are talking about people who would use terrorism to create fear, to kill innocents, to try and bring down our government and reshape our society into something barbaric, foreign and alien to us.

That's the perception of fundamentalist Islam. And it's no different from how Catholicism was portrayed a couple of hundred years ago, of course. And while there were very active plots to destabilise this country and overthrow the government and monarchy, it doesn't mean that even the majority of Catholics wanted anything other than to live their life in peace, contribute to society and worship in their own way, even if it was viewed with scorn and hatred.

It's very easy to limit yourself. Very easy to think in black and white. Very easy to fear and hate people for being different. It's not much of a life though.

My thinking is that this "multi-faith" centre is the perfect soloution to any site near ground zero. It would symbolize (sp) what America is meant to be all about...and a real two fingers up to the bams that were responsible for the crimes that day. It would also send a message to the christian bams that their view of the world is equally unnacceptable and living proof that a multi-racial, multi-cultural society is the way forward.

Even if it was simply a mosque then the message would be the same. It would be a place where Islam was practised and that doesn't mean killing infidels. A lot of Americans are frightened it will become a shrine or some holy place in memory of those who flew the planes but that's their fault for being ignorant. There's no danger anyone would be allowed to preach that sort of nonsense if a mosque was created there.

If any of the two centres were created then it would mean the extremists have failed and the true American values have been preserved...ones of tolerance and free-speech...

...and it would be a slap in the face for the nutters!

[Ally]

This is ******ed.

[Pete]

This is ******ed.

This debate has been slightly ******ed.

Well add some oil and give us your opinion then.



...unless you have some other meaning in mind.

[lucky]

As a resident of west lothian I would welcome more multi culturalism to our county. However I am in the minority. There are very few none whites as such local opposition will be massive.

[Phil D. Rolls]

As a resident of west lothian I would welcome more multi culturalism to our county. However I am in the minority. There are very few none whites as such local opposition will be massive.

This seems to be a problem anywhere outside the major cities. The people who are most bigoted are the ones who have the least experience of ethnic minorities.

[cabbageandribs1875]

not happening for now anyway,

from an article in this weeks courier

a council source confirmed to the courier that talks had taken place and thought that the meetings had gone well.
however,after details of their plans were leaked a spokesperson for the Mohiuddin trust said it had abandoned its plans.
they said: "mohiuddin trust had shown an interest in the premises but has since revoked this plan indefinitely."
it will be a blow to NHS lothian who have been trying to flog the site since the hospital closed six years ago.

[Sylar]

This seems to be a problem anywhere outside the major cities. The people who are most bigoted are the ones who have the least experience of ethnic minorities.

I'll be honest - I despise this sort of comment - you can't have an opinion against anything these days unless you're bigoted.

I oppose the very idea of this (the specific appears to be a moot argument, but let's continue with the idea) secular institution - I oppose it in the same vein that I oppose ALL denomenational schools, including Catholic, Jewish Orthodox, Hindu...

These institutions teach with an agenda and bias - they may teach about other faith/belief systems, but from a skewed perspective. I believe all children should be educated in ALL aspects of faith, and be left to their own devices when it comes to making a "choice". A University which excludes people based on their faith makes no sense to me. They're governed by the same examination and funding boards - it's not that these schools are set up to teach that particular faith, it's set up to allow people of the same faith to study subjects in a comfort zone, with like-minded people.

I've no idea why this is necessary anymore, with ALL Universities in Scotland and the wider UK having established social/faith based societies and facilities, in which like-minded people can get together, socialise, learn and worship together, without the need for this exclusivity. There's no justification for this kind of segregation.

And the other reason I'm against it, which in all honesty, is probably a bigger issue in my eyes - Scotland does not need yet another "University". With so many glorified colleges and polytechnics recently upgrading their status' to "University", yet another one is a ludicrous propoal. So many of them are now struggling financially that we'll see one or two fading away in the not too distant future - how one starting up, with discriminatory entry requirements reducing their potential student pool expects to flourish where many others can't, is beyond me, especially with very limited infrastructure surrounding the proposed site. However, as pointed out, that is now a moot discussion.

[Pete]

I'll be honest - I despise this sort of comment - you can't have an opinion against anything these days unless you're bigoted.

I oppose the very idea of this (the specific appears to be a moot argument, but let's continue with the idea) secular institution - I oppose it in the same vein that I oppose ALL denomenational schools, including Catholic, Jewish Orthodox, Hindu...

These institutions teach with an agenda and bias - they may teach about other faith/belief systems, but from a skewed perspective. I believe all children should be educated in ALL aspects of faith, and be left to their own devices when it comes to making a "choice". A University which excludes people based on their faith makes no sense to me. They're governed by the same examination and funding boards - it's not that these schools are set up to teach that particular faith, it's set up to allow people of the same faith to study subjects in a comfort zone, with like-minded people.

I've no idea why this is necessary anymore, with ALL Universities in Scotland and the wider UK having established social/faith based societies and facilities, in which like-minded people can get together, socialise, learn and worship together, without the need for this exclusivity. There's no justification for this kind of segregation.

And the other reason I'm against it, which in all honesty, is probably a bigger issue in my eyes - Scotland does not need yet another "University". With so many glorified colleges and polytechnics recently upgrading their status' to "University", yet another one is a ludicrous propoal. So many of them are now struggling financially that we'll see one or two fading away in the not too distant future - how one starting up, with discriminatory entry requirements reducing their potential student pool expects to flourish where many others can't, is beyond me, especially with very limited infrastructure surrounding the proposed site. However, as pointed out, that is now a moot discussion.

A genuine 10/10

You've saved me a lot of typing.

[Beefster]

This seems to be a problem anywhere outside the major cities. The people who are most bigoted are the ones who have the least experience of ethnic minorities.

You've said this before but I think some inhabitants of Bradford, Burnley, Oldham and the likes would disagree with you.

It's not the inhabitants of West Lothian, East Lothian or the Highlands that are voting in BNP politicians.

[Betty Boop]

Where does it stipulate that only Muslims can study at an Islamic University ?

[Woody1985]

Why would others want to?

Would Muslims flock to a Christian university?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'll be honest - I despise this sort of comment - you can't have an opinion against anything these days unless you're bigoted.



I don't see how that follows from my observation. Given that I was responding to a statement about bigotry in West Lothian, I think you have maybe picked my up wrong.

I didn't say all opinions are bigoted, what I said was - in my experience - I have come across much more ignorance about diversity amongst the red knecks who live outside the cities. I think this is because they have had very little incentive to understand it.

[Sylar]

I don't see how that follows from my observation. Given that I was responding to a statement about bigotry in West Lothian, I think you have maybe picked my up wrong.

I didn't say all opinions are bigoted, what I said was - in my experience - I have come across much more ignorance about diversity amongst the red knecks who live outside the cities. I think this is because they have had very little incentive to understand it.

Apologies FR - I did indeed read your post quite differently - my bad :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

how one starting up, with discriminatory entry requirements reducing their potential student pool expects to flourish where many others can't, is beyond me

Not sure how it's any more difficult to understand than that Rongers and Celtc are the best supported football clubs in Scotland, while Dundee and Livingston struggle.

[IWasThere2016]

Mibbees - I called it a mosque as I genuinely thought it was exactly that.

FR - I stay in the sticks and one of my best pals is Muslim. He works as an academic as the University of Dundee - and I have no doubt he will be against this proposal. As TSSF says, Scotland does not need another Uni. I actually wrote to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Funding Council to voice my concerns about the QMUC (the University of Joppa as I call it) - as it was totally unneccessary IMHO. As is this proposal.