10 Reasons Why Scottish Football Is Dead

[Speedway]

Although this may be nothing more than an exercise in stating the obvious, I would be grateful if anyone could educate/correct me to think differently about the following.

1. Attendances.

The highest average outwith the OF is around 14,000 on an ongoing basis. The OF see between 30-45,000 more than that every two weeks. At £20 per ticket, that's at least £600,000 more gate income PER HOME MATCH (if the proceeds aren't split) than their rivals.

2. TV Money

As I understand it, the OF receive 60% of TV income with the remaining 40% being split between the rest of the sides. So rather than seeing an even distribution as fair in order to encourage a greater level of competition and opposition, the OF prefer to say, we generate the income, we're taking the income.

3. Europe

Both points above serve to ensure that there's only 2 teams worth signing for in Scotland if you want to play in that country and are truly any good to begin with. The other route is to make your mark at a smaller club such as Hibs. Outside of Hibs though, how often do the non-OF teams sign a player worth the OF nicking?

4. Wages

All three points above ensure that no club outside the OF can sustain a wage budget that will make the club attractive to sign for. Yams are excluded because they haven't got the money they are using.

5. Sponsorship

More self fulfilling prophecy occurs when distribution of income being structured as it is, ensures that there's only two teams that major sponsors would want to throw money at for the size of potential audience and brand assosciation that they'll get by doing so.

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?'

7. League Placing Income

A joke in terms of how much is awarded but nevertheless, most clubs are unable to reach any sort league placing that would earn them serious money.

8. Players

Had the 2010 situation existed in the 1950s, would Hibs have won any league championships at all and indeed, would the famous five have played for Hibs or would we have sold one each summer to the OF?

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.

10. Youth & The National Team

Who is producing players that go on to bigger and better things consistently? Who is getting picked for the national team if they play for a Non-OF Scottish side?

Ultimately, can someone advise me, under the current constitution, what the point is of continuing to follow Scottish Football?

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

1. THE SFA'S LACK OF INVESTMENT

See above for the next nine!

[Dashing Bob S]

All true and the reasons why I was quite frankly delighted when Scotland was screwed for the CL spots. Great to see Europe putting those bloated bigoted toytown fantasists in their place. Without CL money those clubs are and will decline, though as you indicate they'll still be miles ahead of the rest.

I'd love to see Hibs, Hearts, A'deen and Dundee United grow a set and form a coherent lobby of east coast clubs. The first item on the agenda should be 'how do we GTFO of the Scottish set-up and where do we go?'

[Bookkeeper]

Although this may be nothing more than an exercise in stating the obvious, I would be grateful if anyone could educate/correct me to think differently about the following.

1. Attendances.

The highest average outwith the OF is around 14,000 on an ongoing basis. The OF see between 30-45,000 more than that every two weeks. At £20 per ticket, that's at least £600,000 more gate income PER HOME MATCH (if the proceeds aren't split) than their rivals.

2. TV Money

As I understand it, the OF receive 60% of TV income with the remaining 40% being split between the rest of the sides. So rather than seeing an even distribution as fair in order to encourage a greater level of competition and opposition, the OF prefer to say, we generate the income, we're taking the income.

3. Europe

Both points above serve to ensure that there's only 2 teams worth signing for in Scotland if you want to play in that country and are truly any good to begin with. The other route is to make your mark at a smaller club such as Hibs. Outside of Hibs though, how often do the non-OF teams sign a player worth the OF nicking?

4. Wages

All three points above ensure that no club outside the OF can sustain a wage budget that will make the club attractive to sign for. Yams are excluded because they haven't got the money they are using.

5. Sponsorship

More self fulfilling prophecy occurs when distribution of income being structured as it is, ensures that there's only two teams that major sponsors would want to throw money at for the size of potential audience and brand assosciation that they'll get by doing so.

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?' :top marks:top marks:top marks

7. League Placing Income

A joke in terms of how much is awarded but nevertheless, most clubs are unable to reach any sort league placing that would earn them serious money.

8. Players

Had the 2010 situation existed in the 1950s, would Hibs have won any league championships at all and indeed, would the famous five have played for Hibs or would we have sold one each summer to the OF?

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.

10. Youth & The National Team

Who is producing players that go on to bigger and better things consistently? Who is getting picked for the national team if they play for a Non-OF Scottish side?

Ultimately, can someone advise me, under the current constitution, what the point is of continuing to follow Scottish Football?

:top marks:top marks:top marks

All spot on! All that keeps me going is eternal optimism, blind faith, habit and the fact that i'm a daft Hibby. The rest is sickening and IS destroying scottish football.

Are the TV deals etc. really that good for the other 10 clubs that they're happy with the status quo?? Could they not band together and renegotiate a better deal? Time for them to grow a backbone.

[Bookkeeper]

All true and the reasons why I was quite frankly delighted when Scotland was screwed for the CL spots. Great to see Europe putting those bloated bigoted toytown fantasists in their place. Without CL money those clubs are and will decline, though as you indicate they'll still be miles ahead of the rest.

I'd love to see Hibs, Hearts, A'deen and Dundee United grow a set and form a coherent lobby of east coast clubs. The first item on the agenda should be 'how do we GTFO of the Scottish set-up and where do we go?'

:agree: Amen to that!

[johnrebus]

Although this may be nothing more than an exercise in stating the obvious, I would be grateful if anyone could educate/correct me to think differently about the following.

1. Attendances.

The highest average outwith the OF is around 14,000 on an ongoing basis. The OF see between 30-45,000 more than that every two weeks. At £20 per ticket, that's at least £600,000 more gate income PER HOME MATCH (if the proceeds aren't split) than their rivals.

2. TV Money

As I understand it, the OF receive 60% of TV income with the remaining 40% being split between the rest of the sides. So rather than seeing an even distribution as fair in order to encourage a greater level of competition and opposition, the OF prefer to say, we generate the income, we're taking the income.

3. Europe

Both points above serve to ensure that there's only 2 teams worth signing for in Scotland if you want to play in that country and are truly any good to begin with. The other route is to make your mark at a smaller club such as Hibs. Outside of Hibs though, how often do the non-OF teams sign a player worth the OF nicking?

4. Wages

All three points above ensure that no club outside the OF can sustain a wage budget that will make the club attractive to sign for. Yams are excluded because they haven't got the money they are using.

5. Sponsorship

More self fulfilling prophecy occurs when distribution of income being structured as it is, ensures that there's only two teams that major sponsors would want to throw money at for the size of potential audience and brand assosciation that they'll get by doing so.

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?'

7. League Placing Income

A joke in terms of how much is awarded but nevertheless, most clubs are unable to reach any sort league placing that would earn them serious money.

8. Players

Had the 2010 situation existed in the 1950s, would Hibs have won any league championships at all and indeed, would the famous five have played for Hibs or would we have sold one each summer to the OF?

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.

10. Youth & The National Team

Who is producing players that go on to bigger and better things consistently? Who is getting picked for the national team if they play for a Non-OF Scottish side?

Ultimately, can someone advise me, under the current constitution, what the point is of continuing to follow Scottish Football?

I hope you don't work for the Samaratans.

:boo hoo:

[Antifa Hibs]

Although this may be nothing more than an exercise in stating the obvious, I would be grateful if anyone could educate/correct me to think differently about the following.

1. Attendances.

The highest average outwith the OF is around 14,000 on an ongoing basis. The OF see between 30-45,000 more than that every two weeks. At £20 per ticket, that's at least £600,000 more gate income PER HOME MATCH (if the proceeds aren't split) than their rivals.

2. TV Money

As I understand it, the OF receive 60% of TV income with the remaining 40% being split between the rest of the sides. So rather than seeing an even distribution as fair in order to encourage a greater level of competition and opposition, the OF prefer to say, we generate the income, we're taking the income.

3. Europe

Both points above serve to ensure that there's only 2 teams worth signing for in Scotland if you want to play in that country and are truly any good to begin with. The other route is to make your mark at a smaller club such as Hibs. Outside of Hibs though, how often do the non-OF teams sign a player worth the OF nicking?

4. Wages

All three points above ensure that no club outside the OF can sustain a wage budget that will make the club attractive to sign for. Yams are excluded because they haven't got the money they are using.

5. Sponsorship

More self fulfilling prophecy occurs when distribution of income being structured as it is, ensures that there's only two teams that major sponsors would want to throw money at for the size of potential audience and brand assosciation that they'll get by doing so.

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?'

7. League Placing Income

A joke in terms of how much is awarded but nevertheless, most clubs are unable to reach any sort league placing that would earn them serious money.

8. Players

Had the 2010 situation existed in the 1950s, would Hibs have won any league championships at all and indeed, would the famous five have played for Hibs or would we have sold one each summer to the OF?

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.

10. Youth & The National Team

Who is producing players that go on to bigger and better things consistently? Who is getting picked for the national team if they play for a Non-OF Scottish side?

Ultimately, can someone advise me, under the current constitution, what the point is of continuing to follow Scottish Football?

Spot on, and TBH there is little point in Scottish fitba, which is why it is in free fall unless something is done about it. Saying that, most leagues are the same, Premier League, La Liga etc etc, the only league where the clubs are on a sortof level playing field is the Bundesliga.

Something else that would benefit Scottish football would be the collapse of Sky/the Premier League.

[Thecat23]

If i was in charge of an SPL club outswith the OF, and heard that the OF were going on about wanting to join the EPL i would do my best to get every other club to withdraw from the league and set up a 16 team league of our own. Leave that **** to play each other every week. It's a slap in the face to every club in the league when they spout on about this rubbish. Or i'd refuse to play them and give them the 3 points. If every team had the balls to do this then the SFA would have to address it right away. As they can't throw every team out the league and it would make the ugly sisters helpless as they wouldn't have anyone to play. It's like having a girlfriend and saying your alright but i want to sleep with your sister as she's better looking and is worth a few bob. Aye sure that would go down well.

I hate them with a passion and the league would be stronger without them as there would be packed grounds as Hibs, Hearts, Utd, Dons all up there fighting for the league. So this crap scottish football would die is garbage. The whole league need to grow a set of balls and say GTF to the OF and then see them panic like mad.

[GreenCastle]

I have said this for a good few years - The Old Firm have become a victim of their own success and as a result the league just isn't competitive / interesting.

All top leagues around Europe have their big /established clubs but least there is some competition and excitement.

Living in the USA I now believe the quality of football (soccer) played over here is better than the Scottish league and the standard is going to continue to get better as we are in the middle of the USA and the soccer take off.

The biggest problem is the SFA and they don't seem to see the decline while over in the USA it's all about growing.

[MrSmith]

So, as I will always ask...what we gonna do about it? No point greetin aboot it if ye dinnae dae anything!

It is after all the internet revolution so like others, two I could name recently, Third Lanark and Standing at footie grounds, we should maybe canvas all East Coast supporters groups/forums/clubs and get something in motion that will a) benefit Scottish football and b) stick it to the Glesca mafiosa SFL/SPL/SFA!!

Lets rescue the game release it from its Glaswegian jail and combine into one associated membership that serves all the clubs run by people who care!

Who's got the baws???

[IWasThere2016]

Yup - RP and counterparts need to grow a pair! OF GTF! :bye:

[Littlest Hobo]

Question. What can we as supporters do to change things?

[Joe Baker II]

Spot on, and TBH there is little point in Scottish fitba, which is why it is in free fall unless something is done about it. Saying that, most leagues are the same, Premier League, La Liga etc etc, the only league where the clubs are on a sortof level playing field is the Bundesliga.

Something else that would benefit Scottish football would be the collapse of Sky/the Premier League.

You are certainly right here, would ask anyone reading who subscribes to Sky Sports to note your comments.

Would also add:

11 all-seated stadiums;

12 general standard of stewarding at most SPL and various other grounds, sadly from 2010 including Easter Road;

13 lack of relegation play offs for the SPL;

14 lack of sharing of gate receipts.

Sadly before peope pile in blaming OF for everything that is wrong, remember that this visionary gate receipts measure was originated by a Hibs Board. Also to a considerable extent so was the creation of SPL which has contributed significanty to points 11-13.

Much of what is described not unique to Scotland although fact Scotland is small country which expects and has indeed had relative football success makes isuses more pronounced.

[iwasthere1972]

Sky TV. Throwing all their money at mediocre clubs in England. Before Sky came along the gulf between the top clubs in England and Scotland wasn't so great.

You know it's bad when crappy little clubs in the English 1st division can pay players more than Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen.

[Duffys13]

Something else that would benefit Scottish football would be the collapse of Sky/the Premier League.[/QUOTE]

Yes I agree. Can you imagine the increase in the gates, if the only way you could see Hibs was by going to the game on a Saturday at 3pm. Saturday 3pm football, how good does that sound?

[Future17]

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.


I think you've got this one wrong....unless I'm reading it wrong, which is a distinct possibility.

The league management structure requires a 11-1 voting majority. This is what led the 10 non-Old Firm clubs to resign from the SPL many moons ago.

The 10 clubs withdrew their resignation after agreement was reached to amend the voting majority to 10-2, which would allow the non-Old Firm clubs to push through amendments, even with both the Old Firm clubs opposing.

However, this agreement does not appear to have been implemented and the status quo is intact.

[stubru59]

Question. What can we as supporters do to change things?

Can start by supporting their local team. Nothing more frustrating than seeing bus-loads leaving from all over to go and watch the OF.

Fair weather supporter's they might be, but they're putting money into the coffers of those doing the most damage to the game.

[lucky]

Agree with most except the TV money is 30% Old Firm and 70% the rest but this based on the appearances. The SPL is dying we see evidence of it every week. But The big leagues of Spain , England and Germany only two team regularly win the league and cups each year. The difference is that the teams who finish 3/4 get more TV money than the whole of the SPL. The SPL chairman chased the pot of gold twice and failed. Once when they knocked back Sky to set up their own channel and again the second time by backing Setanta. Unfortunately both failed and the SPL were left with scraps that Sky/ESPN gave them.

[banarc7062]

Great to read of constructive collective critisisim for a change. Excellent well thought out original thread starter.:top marks

[Ritchie]

there are only 2 reasons in my eyes.....

1) Celtic

2) Rangers

[cwilliamson85]

Question. What can we as supporters do to change things?

Stop going to the games. The clubs will have to start listening to fans then

[.Sean.]

I'd love to see an SPL without the Old Firm but I just don't see it happening any time soon. You saw how the chairmen of clubs such as Inverness Caley and St Mirren reacted when Rangers and Celtic reiterated their desire to move to the English Premiership. They were dead against it.


A league without the OF would perhaps take a season or three to settle, but there's no doubt in my mind we'd soon have a cracking, competitive league a couple years down the line.

[Speedway]

I think you've got this one wrong....unless I'm reading it wrong, which is a distinct possibility.

The league management structure requires a 11-1 voting majority. This is what led the 10 non-Old Firm clubs to resign from the SPL many moons ago.

The 10 clubs withdrew their resignation after agreement was reached to amend the voting majority to 10-2, which would allow the non-Old Firm clubs to push through amendments, even with both the Old Firm clubs opposing.

However, this agreement does not appear to have been implemented and the status quo is intact.

I see your point so perhaps I should amend that point to say that it is a token change as it is very rare to see a small Glasgow area club vote against both sides of the OF.

[stubru59]

Question. What can we as supporters do to change things?

Can start by supporting their local team. Nothing more frustrating than seeing bus-loads leaving from all over to go and watch the OF.

Fair weather supporter's they might be, but they're putting money into the coffers of those doing the most damage to the game.

[blairwallace]

sounds stupid, but is there a point in trying to get a petition going for "more investment into non old firm teams" or something along the line?
as said before 60% of tv revenues going to them and 40% to everyone else is ****ing ridiculous especially if the old firm are the biggest earners in the SPL. If the old firm did bugger off to the english leagues i would maybe miss them coming to ER, but it gives more teams a chance to win something and spread the glory supporting ****s about! the SPL must be one of the worst ran leagues in football and 100% bias to the old firm.

[Albion Hibs]

Although this may be nothing more than an exercise in stating the obvious, I would be grateful if anyone could educate/correct me to think differently about the following.

1. Attendances.

The highest average outwith the OF is around 14,000 on an ongoing basis. The OF see between 30-45,000 more than that every two weeks. At £20 per ticket, that's at least £600,000 more gate income PER HOME MATCH (if the proceeds aren't split) than their rivals.

2. TV Money

As I understand it, the OF receive 60% of TV income with the remaining 40% being split between the rest of the sides. So rather than seeing an even distribution as fair in order to encourage a greater level of competition and opposition, the OF prefer to say, we generate the income, we're taking the income.

3. Europe

Both points above serve to ensure that there's only 2 teams worth signing for in Scotland if you want to play in that country and are truly any good to begin with. The other route is to make your mark at a smaller club such as Hibs. Outside of Hibs though, how often do the non-OF teams sign a player worth the OF nicking?

4. Wages

All three points above ensure that no club outside the OF can sustain a wage budget that will make the club attractive to sign for. Yams are excluded because they haven't got the money they are using.

5. Sponsorship

More self fulfilling prophecy occurs when distribution of income being structured as it is, ensures that there's only two teams that major sponsors would want to throw money at for the size of potential audience and brand assosciation that they'll get by doing so.

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?'

7. League Placing Income

A joke in terms of how much is awarded but nevertheless, most clubs are unable to reach any sort league placing that would earn them serious money.

8. Players

Had the 2010 situation existed in the 1950s, would Hibs have won any league championships at all and indeed, would the famous five have played for Hibs or would we have sold one each summer to the OF?

9. Gutless Clubs

The league structure which required a 11-1 majority to pass a motion has now been radically revised to 10-2. A mighty victory that now allows the OF to veto anything that isn't in their joint best interests.

10. Youth & The National Team

Who is producing players that go on to bigger and better things consistently? Who is getting picked for the national team if they play for a Non-OF Scottish side?

Ultimately, can someone advise me, under the current constitution, what the point is of continuing to follow Scottish Football?


For me one of the biggest thing would be people turning up to games. Hibs would be an entirely different club if we could fill our ground every second week. We may not be able to offer the same money but it would not be 4/5 times less, but rather an a player moving for say 10k per week, why wouldn’t they chose to play for Hibs if we could offer say 6.5k per week - live in a much nicer city, a far more classy club, with a much better standard of living.

In my view that would alter the shape of our team, even when looking over the last 5 years. We would be much better placed to mount a challenge and after not to long sponsorship and TV money would follow. In addition they would have to go elsewhere for players which may end up costing them more.

Down the line that has to help the overall standard of our game, countless players from all over the country go to these clubs and never get a game, waste a talent and before you know it the national team is scunnered.

Fill our green machine every week and we are all the way there!

The point of following for me is, what else would you do - the town every weekend with the Mrs during the off season is bad enough!

[PISTOL1875]

I'd love to see an SPL without the Old Firm but I just don't see it happening any time soon. You saw how the chairmen of clubs such as Inverness Caley and St Mirren reacted when Rangers and Celtic reiterated their desire to move to the English Premiership. They were dead against it.


A league without the OF would perhaps take a season or three to settle, but there's no doubt in my mind we'd soon have a cracking, competitive league a couple years down the line.

A SPL without the OF would be brilliant yeh.. All the teams can beat each other on there day and the league would be so open for the honours..

However , it wont happen as you say because teams like St Mirren , ICT , Killie etc would probably go bust without the income that the OF bring to them...

[mjhibby]

Agree with all the original points but the big failure is the lack of competition.Last season hibs and then the arabs ran the infirm close and had interest from outside our league.Now with an alarming gap of 8 points between the infirm and well in third and 10 points to hertz in fourth after only 6 games its no wonder other leagues are looking at us and saying what the hell is going on.Add to this our lamentable performance in europe,our plummeting coefficient and the plummetting national standing its not looking a pretty picture.
Attendances are falling everywhere with rangers not even selling out their home games and celtic having thousands of empty seats.Even hertz with their manufactured crowds are well down.
I used to think that should stf or some other guy pump millions into the playing side at er we could challenge the infirm and make a mark in europe.Now even that i dont think would work with players now not fancying coming to scotland unless they are promising youngsters on loan who wont take a club like hibs forward.Teams like hibs and aberdeen are meant to compete with players from the lower chapionship/league one and managers then get sacked when supporters ridiculous expectations arent met.Even when teams like hibs and the arabs put a run together it is only a matter of time before injuries take their toll as neither has a squad big enough to maintain a challenge.
We may look back at mowbrays time and jc winning the cup as the last time we see great football in scotland as what we are seeing now and for the foreseeable football is poor in the extreme and if it wasnt for loyalty to the club many,many fans would just stop going and spend their cash elsewhere.A bleak picture but coming third 30 points(or more)behind the infirm and then to be humped out of europe at the first attempt the following season is not something to celebrate but huge anti climax and looks the norm for the foreseeable future.I wonder how low attendances have to go before something happens.
Ive no ready made solutions but hope somehow it does improve.Where that improvement comes from is anybidys guess.

[TheEastTerrace]

Can't argue with the OP. Scottish football is dying here, yet we sit back and seem to take it for some reason. If you want change in football, you have to show the clubs, the SFA, the SPL who really holds the power here, and that is us, yes US.

If you want change, you have to hit them in their pocket. I would love to see 52,000 turn up at Hampden Park for a Scotland game and then not go in. Just see how the SFA would react to that. Boycott the games, organise pressure groups, demand a supporter's trust, but there's no point moaning about it on here. Do something about it then. Don't pay for season tickets, don't subscribe to Sky, don't pay for merchandise in the club shop. These are BUSINESSES that survive on our presence. Yet, we sit back and do eff all.

Look at the Dortmund fans in Germany. They organised a boycott of the Schalke game because the ticket prices went over 20 euros for the first time. That is fan power and good on them.

This country used to renowned for people power and fighting for our liberties. Now we sit back and just accept it all?? Why??

As I see it, football is already dead in this country, and it's up to us to revive it, and that starts by showing the clubs and authorities that we want CHANGE!

Rant over....and breathe. :greengrin

[Hibercelona]

The OP is bang on the mark.

But i'm afraid to say that we'll still be going on about this in 50 years time.

Nothing is ever going to change. The OF have the say and none of the other clubs will ever have the baws to stand up and say "naw". :yawn:

Its a merry-go-round without the merriness.

[one day maybe...]

The apathy for the scottish domestic game by all fans is becoming more and more apparent. as crowds dwindle week upon week, but as others have said what do we do? well we should do what we can, complain, petition, boycott even. Fans forums around scotland speak of a love for their respective clubs and a desire to see them successful, regardles of how rubbish they may be, we all want to see our teams do well, from Wick to Berwick... Football used to be an escapism on a Saturday from the domesticities of family and working life, for the man to have a few beers and enjoy watching the team he dreamed of playing for.. Nowadays commercial fatcats have sucked the very life out the game in a quest to make money, what football club when it really boils down to it actually makes money. Ok Arsenal posted a profit of something like £41 million this year but that was due to the sale of their old stadium, no club is making a profit, they are continually at the top level being bailed out by rich playboy millionaires with more money to waste than they know what to do with.
So how do we make our game more exciting in Scotland, what idea's are the SFA willing to impliment within the common laws of the game, can we be ground breaking in our idea's, who knows because nobody wants to take the lead.
Personally I would love to see a 16 team league that splits into a top eight and bottom eight after having played 15 games (each other once) luck of the draw what you get 7/8 home games, then the 8 teams play each twice getting another 14 games 7 home and away. the team top after the first split gets a Europa European spot. The league then starts afresh in the January all back to 0 points and off we go again.. the winners of the bottom league get a league trophy plus cash. winners of the top league a trophy, cash and a Champions League place, whatever european places available allocated appropriatley to the 2nd, 3rd placed team and scottish cup winners, with relegation of 3 down 2 automatic up and a play off between the 3rd and 4th places of the 2nd division. We maybe through time start to see a difference in our leagues, a different championship winner, something needs to be done as, as it stand its far to predictable and boring. it needs an overhaul and soon.
Just my opinion though.

[Removed]

Can start by supporting their local team. Nothing more frustrating than seeing bus-loads leaving from all over to go and watch the OF.

Fair weather supporter's they might be, but they're putting money into the coffers of those doing the most damage to the game.

I understand your point but my local team now is Livingston and no danger me or my kids will support them and then anyone on the west side of town should technically be a yam :bitchy:

I think the point you make is valid though when you get born and bred Dundonians, Aberdonians, other teuchters and Ayrshire folk who have no ties to Glasgow all jumping on the Rantic bus :grr:

[Sir David Gray]

I understand your point but my local team now is Livingston and no danger me or my kids will support them and then anyone on the west side of town should technically be a yam :bitchy:

I think the point you make is valid though when you get born and bred Dundonians, Aberdonians, other teuchters and Ayrshire folk who have no ties to Glasgow all jumping on the Rantic bus :grr:

:agree: Totally agree.

Support your local team, folks. You know it makes sense.

:cool2:

[Frogga]

C'mon its not all doom and gloom. We have a league which has retained most of the support it had over the past 5 or 6 years despite the obvious decline in standards, we have clubs across the SPL giving young, local players a chance, we've had the OF make the last 16 of the CL and a UEFA Cup Final, while Aberdeen have made it to the last 16 of the UEFA Cup. Debt has been vastly reduced as a whole and the bosses are making moves to change the league (albeit not ideal ones as yet).

Fair play there are A LOT of negatives but there's some good points for you.

[Littlest Hobo]

It's not all bad. I remember going to Easter Road in the late 80's and early 90's we were getting crowds sometimes as low as 7000.

[HibbyDave]

1). Three governing bodies (SFA,SPL & SFL) all looking after their own interests.
2). See Above
3). See Above.

4). Too Many clubs for a country this size. (Start by merging the old firm!)

5). Oh yes, let's not forget Scotlands Shame ........Sectarianism is still alive and well in Scotland

[Jack]

I think the blame, rather simplistically, goes back to Paladin. :agree:

Saturday lunchtime was football preview, England and Scotland went hand in hand, and Sunday afternoon I used to watch Cartoon Cavalcade and Scotsport.

The SFA wouldn’t let anyone use fitba clips for anything, other than the official footy programmes and then became ridiculous to negotiate with for other programmes – extortionate fees and only if it was for the good of the game :confused: – no gaffs – so nothing happened next!

Wrong, what happened next were things like Question of Sport came to life, after that the Sky football magazine type programmes and They Think its all Over, etc. etc.. None of these programmes showed Scottish Football. Why? The SFA made it too difficult for them and/or too expensive.

An example was spelled out on Soccer AM a few years ago. They asked the SFA/SPL for a 15 second clip, first they said no, then asked for just short of a grand. The equivalent EPL clip would have been provided for nothing, or an admin fee of less than £100. An easy decision for the TV companies to make.

Now, today, where viral media can make a mega star out the likes of Subo one of the fastest growing football hits on YouTube last year was Stokes goal against der hun. What a fantastic advert for Hibs and the Scottish game. The SPL had it removed.

The result has been that the Scottish game has lost most of its viewers, north AND south of the border and the generations since have been ‘starved’ of the [lighter side of the] Scottish game. Interest has fallen away to the extent TV companies don’t really care, a really big GIRUY.

And then I could go on, as I have before, about Scotland being the only country in the civilised world that will show non domestic clubs and leagues in action in preference to and at more civilised times their own.

[DAZ86]

The fact is that hitting them in there pocket as everyone keeps sayings doesnt work , all that happens is the prices rise to make up the differece. All we need it more people making the effort to go to the games. Most people on here will have 1 or 2 mates who dont go to the game for no real reason (not people who genuinely cant go , the other lot who cant be bothered) we wouldnt be paying £27 for the Rangers game if we sold 20000 tickets every week. We would be looking at £15 max. We will never challange until we make more money as a club , by have a strong support and selling out our stadium. Then we can pay the higher wages.

Rangers and Celtic are the only reason we still have a decent income as it is. I would love to see them go , there would be a few clubs that would go with them though. We need the income they bring. We all moan about them signing talent etc etc , truth is , if we paid our players better , we would keep them. Football is all about finance , look at the Premiership. Full of investment and an FA who will back there teams. Which we dont have.

[HibsMax]

As much as I kinda hate the limitations put on teams over here, I'm thinking about the NFL, I do like the setup. The NFL Commission has lots of haters for sure but they do try and maintain a level playing field. Two examples:
1. salary caps.
2. the draft. this is not applicable to Scottish football because there is no draft but the draft ensures that the crappiest team from last years gets the best picks in the draft. That doesn't always work out to their advantage but at least they get the pick(s).

The difference as I see it is simple. The NFL WANTS a competitive league, the SPL / SFA / whomever, doesn't. If they did they would engineer an infrastructure that would help promote that. If they GENUINELY gave a crap, they would do something about it.

I've been here for over 12 years and I've been following NFL for about 10 of those. I don't claim to know the ins and outs of the sport but I do find it incredibly entertaining, even when it's two teams I don't especially care for. There is no dominant team. Just look at the past Superbowl winners. Sure, there have been "dynasties" but how long did they last? Not nearly as long as the Old Firm's stranglehold. What I find totally unfathomable is how that only the fans can apparently see this. I don't know why the governing bodies are hellbent on running such a lopsided organisation. WTF?!

(another) EDIT:
USA = 300 million people. 32 teams. 300,000,000 / 32 = 9,375,000*.
Scotland = 6 million people. 42 teams. 6,000,000 / 42 = 142, 857*.

* - potential fans per team not accounting for regional variances, etc.

Quite a difference AND the USA has more popular competitive sports to compete with one another (Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Football and "Soccer"). And then there is College Football which is more popular than Pro Football.

I am not about to start advocating the demise of the smaller Scottish clubs. I don't even know if less clubs means an upturn in gates for those clubs that are left but I do think the fanbase is somewhat diluted.

[Ozyhibby]

Can any of the people who are whining on this thread show me another league in the world in a country with a population of only 5 million people who get as good attendances as ours?
The reason the EPL is better than ours is they have a bigger population than us.
Our league performs great given the size of our country.

[Ozyhibby]

League attendances



41,914 - German Bundesliga
35,599 - English Premier League
29,124 - Spain La Liga
25,379 - Mexico Primera Division
23,180 - Italy Serie A
21,050 - France Ligue 1
20,886 - Argentina Primera Division
20,195 - England Football League Championship
19,827 - Dutch Eredivisie
19,278 - Japan J-League
17,601 - Brazil Campeonato Serie A
16,482 - China Super League
16,460 - Major League Soccer
15,550 - Germany 2.Bundesliga
14,915 - Scottish Premier League
14,058 - Turkey Super Lig
13,334 - Russian Premier League
13,242 - South Korea K-League
12,966 - Australia A-League
11.369 - Belgium Jupiler League
10,917 - Switzerland Super League
10,438 - Norway Premier League
10,390 - Portuguese Liga
10,326 - Vietnam V-League
10,258 - Sweden Allsvenskan
9,552 - Colombia Copa Mustang
9,338 - Austrian Bundesliga
9,216 - Iran Premier League
9,052 - Ukrainian Premier League
8,814 - Denmark Superliga
8,599 - France Ligue 2
8,112 - Spain Segunda Division
8,324 - England Football League One
7,622 - Greece Super League
7,526 - South Africa Premier Soccer League
7,336 - Uzbekistan League
7,329 - Poland Orange Ekstraklasa
7,219 - Brazil Campeonato Serie B
7,072 - Japan J-League 2
6,147 - Chile Primera Division
6,044 - Romania Divizia A
6,026 - Italy Serie B
5,453 - Germany Regionalliga Nord
5,305 - Israeli Premier League
5,147 - Czech Premier League

[HibsMax]

Can any of the people who are whining on this thread show me another league in the world in a country with a population of only 5 million people who get as good attendances as ours?
The reason the EPL is better than ours is they have a bigger population than us.
Our league performs great given the size of our country.

I think you're missing the point. We might get good attendances for our population but that doesn't make the situation any more palatable. I think the fans do a great job turning out in the numbers that they do but it's not enough to make the game of football profitable enough for us to be competitive.

$0.02

EDIT: I thought we had 6 million? My bad.

[The_Todd]

6. Media

Tonight on Your Drawl, with Hibs beating Hearts 10-0 and Hamilton putting 16 past Aberdeen, we ask: 'Has Glenn Loovens put highlights in his hair?'


And not forgetting that the debate about Glenn Loovens will be by "Fred from Aberdeen\Edinburgh\Inverness\Dundee\Livingston\Ham ilton\Falkirk\Motherwell\Ayr, a Celtc man through and through so I am"

[heidtheba]

Great opening post (as well as many replies) and one I totally agree with.
RE the Infirm getting so much money and power - This isn't a loaded question because I didn't take any notice of it when it happened but does anyone know how much money England's rugby club lost out on when they did that negotiated deal with Sky (i think?) when the other nations hadn't been consulted and the others banned showing England games?

[Doc Holiday]

Fantastic opening post and one I just had to come in on.

That people are finally waking up to this reality is music to my ears and to be honest I think if we continue to play the OF at their game I don't really have a hope of EVER getting close to them such is the way football is now structured, unless we do a hearts/dundee/livi/gretna etc etc and bankrupt ourselves.

I firmly believe we should be following the athletic bilbao route where 1) we only play players who are scottish or have come through the youth system of a scottish club (or as a minimum are under the age of 23, so the likes of benji, zemmama and murphy could qualify) and 2) We use fan power to try to get hibs to become supporter owned club.

1) would mean that would mean that we would see more of kenny miller, deeks, GOC, broonie, fletcher, whittaker, spoony coming through (everything that's been great about the last 10 years) and 2) would mean we have a far better chance of paying them the sort of money that might keep them. Selling guys like Fletcher and giving the money to european journeymen like De Graaf, Trakys and Dickoh will get us nowhere

[Bostonhibby]

Cannae fault the OP at all

So will only add 11. And the product on show gets a bit repetetive with the same teams meeting 3 or even 4 times a year until the split that makes the rest of the country wonder wtf is going on..............

A breakaway larger non OF league might take a bit of time to break even but would be a brave thing to do, ditch the OF - would be funny if the EPL didnae actually want them!

[LancashireHibby]

Despise Rantic as much as the next man, but I fear the SPL would become little more than something on a par with the Welsh Premier if we send the best two sides off to England - basically admitting defeat in at least trying to keep up with them.

[Doc Holiday]

Despise Rantic as much as the next man, but I fear the SPL would become little more than something on a par with the Welsh Premier if we send the best two sides off to England - basically admitting defeat in at least trying to keep up with them.

I agree that is a risk but what do the supporters in the welsh league think? To outsiders, the SPL outside the OF is already a footballing backwater at least the teams in Wales have something to play for! I'd love to know the numbers of people non-scottish people who tune in to sky/espn matches that don't involve the OF!

As the opening post argues we are already on the road to ruin the real risk is not doing something to change course.

[Bostonhibby]

Despise Rantic as much as the next man, but I fear the SPL would become little more than something on a par with the Welsh Premier if we send the best two sides off to England - basically admitting defeat in at least trying to keep up with them.

:agree: Whilst I accept that the fans have very little say in what happens in football these days, I encounter very few english fans who want this shower in their league, it might be okay to milk them at the odd pointless friendly or "glamour" tournament which most of them see as a holiday, but very few want them every week, huns in particular after Manchester. They are genuinely shocked at the level of sectarian singing and the nature of the songs............

[1875 NO 1]

If i was in charge of an SPL club outswith the OF, and heard that the OF were going on about wanting to join the EPL i would do my best to get every other club to withdraw from the league and set up a 16 team league of our own. Leave that **** to play each other every week. It's a slap in the face to every club in the league when they spout on about this rubbish. Or i'd refuse to play them and give them the 3 points. If every team had the balls to do this then the SFA would have to address it right away. As they can't throw every team out the league and it would make the ugly sisters helpless as they wouldn't have anyone to play. It's like having a girlfriend and saying your alright but i want to sleep with your sister as she's better looking and is worth a few bob. Aye sure that would go down well.

I hate them with a passion and the league would be stronger without them as there would be packed grounds as Hibs, Hearts, Utd, Dons all up there fighting for the league. So this crap scottish football would die is garbage. The whole league need to grow a set of balls and say GTF to the OF and then see them panic like mad.

spot on.

if they don't complie with a fair split of tv income and a sensible voting structure in the SPL. Then the other 10 should break away.

Also, get back to home and away alternate weeks and play on a Sat at 3pm

[Steve-O]

Can any of the people who are whining on this thread show me another league in the world in a country with a population of only 5 million people who get as good attendances as ours?
The reason the EPL is better than ours is they have a bigger population than us.
Our league performs great given the size of our country.

The point is though, the standard is gash, and without 100,000 bigots a fortnight bumping up the average, the attendances are hardly anything to get excited about are they? :confused:

[Littlest Hobo]

If i was in charge of an SPL club outswith the OF, and heard that the OF were going on about wanting to join the EPL i would do my best to get every other club to withdraw from the league and set up a 16 team league of our own. Leave that **** to play each other every week. It's a slap in the face to every club in the league when they spout on about this rubbish. Or i'd refuse to play them and give them the 3 points. If every team had the balls to do this then the SFA would have to address it right away. As they can't throw every team out the league and it would make the ugly sisters helpless as they wouldn't have anyone to play. It's like having a girlfriend and saying your alright but i want to sleep with your sister as she's better looking and is worth a few bob. Aye sure that would go down well.

I hate them with a passion and the league would be stronger without them as there would be packed grounds as Hibs, Hearts, Utd, Dons all up there fighting for the league. So this crap scottish football would die is garbage. The whole league need to grow a set of balls and say GTF to the OF and then see them panic like mad.


:top marks:agree::thumbsup:

[The_Todd]

Despise Rantic as much as the next man, but I fear the SPL would become little more than something on a par with the Welsh Premier if we send the best two sides off to England - basically admitting defeat in at least trying to keep up with them.


This isn't a fair comparison. The League of Wales only came into being in 1992, and the major teams in each City (Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport) don't play in it.

The Scottish League has been around a lot, lot longer and is much more well established. The hard core of 8 to 9,000 Hibs and Hearts fans won't abandon the team overnight will they? That's a hard core that LoW teams couldn't even dream of combined. Also the SPL would still contain teams from Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Falkirk, Kilmarnock and Glasgow (ie Thistle).

And besides, Division One doesn't have the Old Firm in it. Nor does it even have Hibs, Hearts, Dundee United or Aberdeen. It's still a much, much bigger league than the Welsh League. Why on earth would the SPL drop THAT drastically?

[weecounty hibby]

The league set up is a huge problem. Pre '75 the leagues were much more competetive and although the OF did win the majority there were occasions when Hibs, Aberdeen, Killie and even Hearts won the title. There were few occasions, if any, when they won by 20 points like nowadays either.

The premier league came into being when Celtic were winning nine in a row. It was seen as a way to stop this dominance, but other than Dundee Utd, once, Aberdeen a couple of times, the OF have won every season since 1975. The league set up MUST change back to 18 teams playing each other twice.

There is nowhere else in the world where the league is so dominated from day one to the last day by two teams, even when we think of Spain, Barca and Real, they don't win on day one and continue all the way through to the final day with the title being won due to the results against each other.

Boredom has set in in Scotland, I have watched Hibs since 1973/4 and have had a number of season tickets, but I just don't go anymore. I remember one sason we played Celtic 7 times due to drawing them in both cups and one going to a replay. One of the most enjoyable seasons for me was "The Great Adventure" in Div 1 although embarrasing to be there. Places we hadn't played for years, terracing, new teams to play and although we eventually won at a canter it was fairly competetive until we saw off Ayr and Falkirk.