Sir Tom and RP - We owe them a huge vote of thanks

[CentreLine]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

[Mikey]

Take cover :greengrin

[Green_one]

RP has done pretty well out of the Hibs. Ok he has done a good job but he has been rewarded.

Sir Tom is a god. He is my favourite pensioner too.

[CentreLine]

Take cover :greengrin

No need. The facts speak for themselves. Yes I know we are not getting it right on the park right now but we do have a team to watch. Something that was by no means a certainty not so long ago

[Cropley10]

The Board have indeed done a fantastic job - in particular Petrie, but most importantly STF. Sir Tom was there at a darkest hour to make sure we survived, how much of his own money he's actually 'spent' as in he wont' get back I don't know.

Rod has done a fantastic job of repairing the balance sheet, getting us out of a mess he got us into, of course. He's overseen the opening of the HTC, and completed the redevelopment of ER. All of our best players have been sold in the process and we've been through 4 managers in 4 years.

Now that the 'infrastructure' is completed I'd say Rod's work is done. I'd like to add my personal thanks to him for all he's done and wish him well for the future.

[CmoantheHibs]

Many posters dont seem to realise that without STF there would be no Hibs.This man is truely the saviour of this great club and anything he has/will make out of the club should never be grudged or questioned.
RP has done a remakable job at develloping the club and done it within the confines of the clubs finances.It may be that we have had to sell our best players(has it ever been any different)but now we command a better figure for players.Hopefully when capital outlay is reduced significantly the money will be put into the playing/couching staff.
I confess I know little of RP business or how he conducts it but it appears to me, looking at every other Scottish club, that he has done an amazing job.I cannot put into words how I felt when SLF came in and saved Hibs from oblivion.A true white knight.I am sure thet both will make the correct decision for Hibs and wish to thank them both.

[Albion Hibs]

RP has done pretty well out of the Hibs. Ok he has done a good job but he has been rewarded.

Sir Tom is a god. He is my favourite pensioner too.

Dont you get paid for going to work?!

[MB62]

Here we go again :brickwall

[Dashing Bob S]

The facts speak for themselves.


But which facts?



Or do they?

[Davy Mac]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Agree 100%, well said.

Maybe we should get STF to pick the team as well, oh sorry wrong club:greengrin

[Littlest Hobo]

Never really taken that much interest at what goes on behind the scenes at the club to be honest.

Fair play to Sir Tom for keeping us going and the same goes to all the directors over the years who have made good/bad decisions I'm sure with the club at heart.

:notworthy::top marks:flag::flag::flag::flag:

[CmoantheHibs]

Agree 100%, well said.

Maybe we should get STF to pick the team as well, oh sorry wrong club:greengrin

:greengrinMade me chuckle

[Cropley10]

Dont you get paid for going to work?!

Outside the OF we have the most expensive Board in the SPL.

Our wages/turnover figures includes the Boards payment. Why so big a Board, why so expensive? :dunno:

[HibeeB]

Outside the OF we have the most expensive Board in the SPL.

Our wages/turnover figures includes the Boards payment. Why so big a Board, why so expensive? :dunno:

Well, I'm just glad something about our club is Big :greengrin

[HFC 0-7]

Would we be giving them a huge vote of thanks to them for appointing Yogi?

[At The Edge]

Many posters dont seem to realise that without STF there would be no Hibs.This man is truely the saviour of this great club and anything he has/will make out of the club should never be grudged or questioned.
RP has done a remakable job at develloping the club and done it within the confines of the clubs finances.It may be that we have had to sell our best players(has it ever been any different)but now we command a better figure for players.Hopefully when capital outlay is reduced significantly the money will be put into the playing/couching staff.
I confess I know little of RP business or how he conducts it but it appears to me, looking at every other Scottish club, that he has done an amazing job.I cannot put into words how I felt when SLF came in and saved Hibs from oblivion.A true white knight.I am sure thet both will make the correct decision for Hibs and wish to thank them both.


Punk Rock saves the day, who'd have thought it! :wink:

[CB_NO3]

The board have done a great job, they got us out the mess that they got is in, but its hard to blaim them as such as they were not to know about the SKY TV deal going t*ts up the first time around. I feel now though the club should make a statement with a 5 or 10 year plan. We have the training ground up and running, the stadium is complete, so what next?. Where do they see the club when it comes to challenging for honours over the next 5 to 10 years?. I feel they need to say something to the fans to get them excited again.

[CmoantheHibs]

Punk Rock saves the day, who'd have thought it! :wink:

:greengrinHanx for pointing that out.

[SlickShoes]

Clicked on the thread because i read it as Sir Tom RIP.

Scary stuff.

[(((Fergus)))]

Agree 100%, well said.

Maybe we should get STF to pick the team as well, oh sorry wrong club:greengrin

Bet you his team talks would be more inspiring.

[deeks01]

Clicked on the thread because i read it as Sir Tom RIP.

Scary stuff.

out of curiosity how would that affect hibs? :S

and thank you STF for saving hibernian so that I grew up with a club to support rather than just my papa's tales of the famous 5 etc.

[Green_one]

Dont you get paid for going to work?!

Yes, obviously :rolleyes: but they do not give me a significant % of the actual business. RP is not cheap and gets very well paid, especially for such a 'frugal' club. VFM - you can argue that if you like but he is still expensive. No need then to say a big thanks.

STF is a completely different case.

[Kaiser1962]

Outside the OF we have the most expensive Board in the SPL.

Our wages/turnover figures includes the Boards payment. Why so big a Board, why so expensive? :dunno:

Probably because of the good job they do. You get what you pays for.

[CmoantheHibs]

There would be no Hibs,no Hibs.net,no Hibeesbounce without STF.There would be 1 team in Edinburgh probably still playing at a PBS but who cares as they would have the whole citys' support(through time).They would still be wearing maroon and still called heart of midlotian.
Yet now you mistrust this man, that somehow his business sense has left him, maybe RP is fleecing the club.Get a grip.
Every other team wishes they were in our position(not just in scotland)yet still we detract from what has been a magnificent achievement.Have a little patience and I am sure it will turn around on the park(both with performances and signing policy)

[Kato]

Hopefully when capital outlay is reduced significantly the money will be put into the playing/couching staff.


I hate sitting down at the football - no matter how comfortable they make it.

[IWasThere2016]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

We have EVERYTHING to thank STF for :agree:

As an aside though, do you think if Dundee had the £15m+ (or whatever the figure is) worth of talent - and the car park - to sell that they'd still be where they are?

And that Hibs without said £15m+ (plus car park) would be where they are?

[Cropley10]

There would be no Hibs,no Hibs.net,no Hibeesbounce without STF.There would be 1 team in Edinburgh probably still playing at a PBS but who cares as they would have the whole citys' support(through time).They would still be wearing maroon and still called heart of midlotian.
Yet now you mistrust this man, that somehow his business sense has left him, maybe RP is fleecing the club.Get a grip.
Every other team wishes they were in our position(not just in scotland)yet still we detract from what has been a magnificent achievement.Have a little patience and I am sure it will turn around on the park(both with performances and signing policy)

Sorry who are you talking to?

Are we just going to keep going on and on and on and on about our fantastic balance sheet? About what a FANTASTIC job Mr Petrie has done when it comes to selling every possible player worth anything in the last 5 years?

In case you're not aware we've turned a profit and propped up the balance sheet through player sales. Thing is - other than Bamba - there's no-one left to sell. And revenues are declining due to the fact that the football's not great to watch any more...

So before you stand outside East Road playing a fanfare to Sir Rod of Petrie you might like to consider what he's going to do next, exactly. My view is - his work's done.

[new malkyhib]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH





:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of Board acloytes there to do just that.

Was reading about Dundee this morning - didn't think it would be long before one of the Board disciples was on preaching to us ungrateful barstewards that can't say a word against Farmer or Petrie.

Farmer has been good for Hibs, but Hibs have been good for him as well.

As for Petrie he'll get his ten per cent back in spades if and when Farmer ever sells, and his legacy will be selling anything that moves and a slavish devotion to the balance sheet.

PS - I dare you to post this kind of stuff again if a) we sell Riordan or indeed let his contract run down or b) get relegated...

[matty_f]

We have EVERYTHING to thank STF for :agree:

As an aside though, do you think if Dundee had the £15m+ (or whatever the figure is) worth of talent - and the car park - to sell that they'd still be where they are?

And that Hibs without said £15m+ (plus car park) would be where they are?

Going by Dundee's track record, they've shown no responsibility whatsoever when it comes to their finances, so having £15m and a car park would either just have bought them a little more time, or made their crash more spectacular.

I don't think we'd be where we are without £15m and a car park, as in we wouldn't have a completed stadium or a training centre, however we'd be on the right path to being where we are, given that STF's stated intention when he bought the club was to stabilise it and make us self-sufficient.

[Bishop Hibee]

I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of Board acloytes there to do just that.

Was reading about Dundee this morning - didn't think it would be long before one of the Board disciples was on preaching to us ungrateful barstewards that can't say a word against Farmer or Petrie.

Farmer has been good for Hibs, but Hibs have been good for him as well.

As for Petrie he'll get his ten per cent back in spades if and when Farmer ever sells, and his legacy will be selling anything that moves and a slavish devotion to the balance sheet.

PS - I dare you to post this kind of stuff again if a) we sell Riordan or indeed let his contract run down or b) get relegated...

When STF saved Hibs plan B was starting again in the East of Scotland league playing at Meadowbank so I would say he's been better for us than we've been for him.

If we'd moved to Straiton as he and Dougie Crombe and the board would have liked he'd have made a killing from selling ER and the surrounding land. Thankfully e and the board reluctantly listened to the fans and I believe he then began to understand what Hibs are about and take a greater interest.

Name one player who we've sold who you think is not on a better wage at their current club? The timing of some players leaving has been poor especially Stokes and a finger of blame can be pointed at the board and management team for this.

The Riordan situation is different in that he wants to stay and their will rightly be uproar if he is allowed to leave.

If we're in relegation danger at the turn of the year, Petrie will sack Yogi if he hasn't done so previously.

[Sloppy]

Clicked on the thread because i read it as Sir Tom RIP.

Scary stuff.
same :bitchy:

[new malkyhib]

When STF saved Hibs plan B was starting again in the East of Scotland league playing at Meadowbank so I would say he's been better for us than we've been for him.

If we'd moved to Straiton as he and Dougie Crombe and the board would have liked he'd have made a killing from selling ER and the surrounding land. Thankfully e and the board reluctantly listened to the fans and I believe he then began to understand what Hibs are about and take a greater interest.

Name one player who we've sold who you think is not on a better wage at their current club? The timing of some players leaving has been poor especially Stokes and a finger of blame can be pointed at the board and management team for this.

The Riordan situation is different in that he wants to stay and their will rightly be uproar if he is allowed to leave.

If we're in relegation danger at the turn of the year, Petrie will sack Yogi if he hasn't done so previously.

Might be too late by then though eh? And that'll not be showing much foresight by the best Board in the universe as some on here would have you believe.

And on the point on what player have we sold that's not on a better wage, here's one for you...name me another Board that would sell their only fit and available forward (O'Connor) before a cup semi-final against their greatest rivals?

That had Petrie's dabs all over it, and for blinkered old me, summed the guy up in his attitude to the Hibs fans, who are simply a means to an end for this Board... If Hughes goes, then there should be some admission of failure at Board level too in the form of a resignation or two (that would also free some cash up for players).

[Bishop Hibee]

[/B]

Might be too late by then though eh? And that'll not be showing much foresight by the best Board in the universe as some on here would have you believe.

And on the point on what player have we sold that's not on a better wage, here's one for you...name me another Board that would sell their only fit and available forward (O'Connor) before a cup semi-final against their greatest rivals?

That had Petrie's dabs all over it, and for blinkered old me, summed the guy up in his attitude to the Hibs fans, who are simply a means to an end for this Board... If Hughes goes, then there should be some admission of failure at Board level too in the form of a resignation or two (that would also free some cash up for players).

Possibly. Name a better board in Scottish football?

Your comment doesn't make sense. O'Connor will be on more money while on loan at Barnsley than he was on at ER. To quote my last post, "the timing of some players leaving has been poor".

That end being their wages? I think Petrie has had Hibs interests at heart along with the wage he would claim he deserves. Any directors in particular who should go and who would you like in their place?

[new malkyhib]

Possibly. Name a better board in Scottish football?

Your comment doesn't make sense. O'Connor will be on more money while on loan at Barnsley than he was on at ER. To quote my last post, "the timing of some players leaving has been poor".

That end being their wages? I think Petrie has had Hibs interests at heart along with the wage he would claim he deserves. Any directors in particular who should go and who would you like in their place?

My point is this: O'Connor would've got his move eventually. Petrie sold him in the knowledge that for the upcoming semi-final a) Killen was injured b) Riordan was suspended. It left us with Benji as our only recognisable forward playing his first competitive game in Scotland. I challenged Petrie personally on this and his response was: "It's only one game"... - 'nuff said.

And FWIW I think either Petrie or Lindsay could go because there appears to be a great deal of overlap in their roles - and on another point, do you think Petrie's record of appointing managers is beyond reproach as well?

[1875 NO 1]

We have EVERYTHING to thank STF for :agree:

As an aside though, do you think if Dundee had the £15m+ (or whatever the figure is) worth of talent - and the car park - to sell that they'd still be where they are?

And that Hibs without said £15m+ (plus car park) would be where they are?

spot on. Mr Petrie had our debt upto £19m!!!!

The last 3 years our operating loss has been £5m.

We have debts to be paid for £6m excluding if we borrowed money for the new stand. Its lucky Rod still had players to sell our the debt would be over £10m.

[1875 NO 1]

The Board have indeed done a fantastic job - in particular Petrie, but most importantly STF. Sir Tom was there at a darkest hour to make sure we survived, how much of his own money he's actually 'spent' as in he wont' get back I don't know.

Rod has done a fantastic job of repairing the balance sheet, getting us out of a mess he got us into, of course. He's overseen the opening of the HTC, and completed the redevelopment of ER. All of our best players have been sold in the process and we've been through 4 managers in 4 years.

Now that the 'infrastructure' is completed I'd say Rod's work is done. I'd like to add my personal thanks to him for all he's done and wish him well for the future.

£750K to buy club and £250k loan plus interest to buy Murdo MacLeod.

[Kaiser1962]

Is that not because he allowed McLeish to "invest" in the team by paying over the top wages and fees? Speculate to accumulate and all that?
The board does what it does to survive, and does it very well, based on sound principles that have served him well throughout his life. I have said before if STF and RP were players we couldnt afford them.
Would anybody swap one-two years of relative success for oblivion? I know some would but count me out.


spot on. Mr Petrie had our debt upto £19m!!!!

The last 3 years our operating loss has been £5m.

We have debts to be paid for £6m excluding if we borrowed money for the new stand. Its lucky Rod still had players to sell our the debt would be over £10m.

[Caversham Green]

£750K to buy club and £250k loan plus interest to buy Murdo MacLeod.

Plus £5,760,000 loan written off and £3,500,000 for a new share issue in a club he already owned.

[Eaststand]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Good post Centreline and I agree with you 100% that STF and RP have done wonders for our club.
There's absolultely no doubt that we'd not have a club to support if STF had taken the safe and easy option to not get involved with the mess we were in back in the dark 80's when we were up to our necks in it financially

GGTTH

[MB62]

Plus £5,760,000 loan written off and £3,500,000 for a new share issue in a club he already owned.

Can you expand and provide some evidence of these these transactions please and they are certainly news to me that he has done such deals to his detriment.

[matty_f]

Plus £5,760,000 loan written off and £3,500,000 for a new share issue in a club he already owned.

He's literally bleeding us dry.:grr::grr:

[Caversham Green]

Can you expand and provide some evidence of these these transactions please and they are certainly news to me that he has done such deals to his detriment.

The loan was written off in season 2003/04 - I can scan the pages of the relevant accounts if you want, but not right now. The share issue was connected with the buy-back of the stadium - I don't have the accounts for that time, but I'll see if can get hold of some evidence.

Of course the capital injections increased the value of his asset, so it could be argued that they were not really to his detriment, but in that respect it's impossible for him to benefit the club without also benefitting himself.

[Kaiser1962]

Can you expand and provide some evidence of these these transactions please and they are certainly news to me that he has done such deals to his detriment.

I have some recollection of this, and more, from various sets of published accounts from when the Stadium transfered back to the football club from the holding company. I'm sure Caversham will be along in a minute to clear it up for you.

[Kaiser1962]

The loan was written off in season 2003/04 - I can scan the pages of the relevant accounts if you want, but not right now. The share issue was connected with the buy-back of the stadium - I don't have the accounts for that time, but I'll see if can get hold of some evidence.

Of course the capital injections increased the value of his asset, so it could be argued that they were not really to his detriment, but in that respect it's impossible for him to benefit the club without also benefitting himself.

oops!

[MB62]

The loan was written off in season 2003/04 - I can scan the pages of the relevant accounts if you want, but not right now. The share issue was connected with the buy-back of the stadium - I don't have the accounts for that time, but I'll see if can get hold of some evidence.

C.G. Are you referring to the donation he gave to the club from the car park sale,where STF made more than twice this amount himself, or is this something entirely different?


Of course the capital injections increased the value of his asset, so it could be argued that they were not really to his detriment, but in that respect it's impossible for him to benefit the club without also benefitting himself.

so he has not lost money then?

No need to go providing evidence as this is not a challenge to you, more an enquiry of your knowledge, apologies to you if it sounded different.

Whilst I would not swap STF for any other owner in the SPL or even further afield, I get irritated at the constant 'saviour' tag that some people put on him, as though Hibs would not have existed today without STF's intervention, when it is simply not true. Whether we would have the infrastructure we presently have if the bank had chosen a different bidder is, IMO, unlikely, but STF has had very little financial outlay and has probably made more out of Hibs than any other football in recent times (if any of them have actually made money).

Delighted the man is our owner and long may he continue to be so, but there are other sides of the coin too.

[1875 NO 1]

The loan was written off in season 2003/04 - I can scan the pages of the relevant accounts if you want, but not right now. The share issue was connected with the buy-back of the stadium - I don't have the accounts for that time, but I'll see if can get hold of some evidence.

Of course the capital injections increased the value of his asset, so it could be argued that they were not really to his detriment, but in that respect it's impossible for him to benefit the club without also benefitting himself.
Yes he sold the ground back to the football club from the holding company. Ironic he owns both companies.

Another way Hiberian Holdings benefits from owning Hibs

[Aldo]

Like many other boards RP spent money to try and better the team on the park...we ended up about £19 in Debt. He got it wrong, saw this and took action.

We now have a very very manageable debt, excellent stadium, superb training facility however we are not doing it on the pitch.

I am a big RP fan and if it wasnt for him then we would be in the keek.

STF well what can I say.....the saviour of our club. When things were tough he put his hands into his pockets and put money into the club.

Yes Rodders is getting a good wack o cash to look after our club but for me it is justified and well earned.

We have an excellent board and our club for me is in very safe hands. Long may this continue.

If you are not happy just take a look along the road and see what is going along there.

[Caversham Green]

C.G. Are you referring to the donation he gave to the club from the car park sale,where STF made more than twice this amount himself, or is this something entirely different?



so he has not lost money then?

No need to go providing evidence as this is not a challenge to you, more an enquiry of your knowledge, apologies to you if it sounded different.

Whilst I would not swap STF for any other owner in the SPL or even further afield, I get irritated at the constant 'saviour' tag that some people put on him, as though Hibs would not have existed today without STF's intervention, when it is simply not true. Whether we would have the infrastructure we presently have if the bank had chosen a different bidder is, IMO, unlikely, but STF has had very little financial outlay and has probably made more out of Hibs than any other football in recent times (if any of them have actually made money).

Delighted the man is our owner and long may he continue to be so, but there are other sides of the coin too.

I am referring to the car park sale which realised a bit over £9m, but the ultimate and sole beneficiary of that sale was Hibernian Football Club - the additional £3+m covered losses made by HFC Holdings Ltd in servicing the club.

Whether he has lost money or not will only be known if and when he sells the club. The bottom line is that Hibernian Football Club is better off by the amounts stated (plus arguably the losses incurred by HFC Holdings) while other companies owned by STF are worse off. The fact is that no matter what he does, if it benefits the club it will also benefit him by increasing the potential share values - although not necessarily by the same amount. I honestly can't fathom why anyone would have a problem with that.

[Caversham Green]

Yes he sold the ground back to the football club from the holding company. Ironic he owns both companies.

Another way Hiberian Holdings benefits from owning Hibs

How do you think he should have dealt with it?

[MB62]

I am referring to the car park sale which realised a bit over £9m, but the ultimate and sole beneficiary of that sale was Hibernian Football Club - the additional £3+m covered losses made by HFC Holdings Ltd in servicing the club.

The car park and land that was sold ultimately belonged to Hibernian Football Club anyway, so STF just gave us back what was originally ours. Granted, after all the legal dealings, he possibly didn't have to, but that would have been a huge stab in the back to everyone connected to the club.



Whether he has lost money or not will only be known if and when he sells the club. The bottom line is that Hibernian Football Club is better off by the amounts stated (plus arguably the losses incurred by HFC Holdings) while other companies owned by STF are worse off. I honestly can't fathom why anyone would have a problem with that.


I don't have a problem with any of that. It is when people come on here hinting that there would be no Hibernian without STF or that he paid for the rebuilding of ER and E.M. when it is simply not true.

I have already said I am delighted that STF is our main man, after a sticky start to his reign, I don't think we could have wished for anybody better. I just wish people would see both sides of the coin rather than all this brown nose stuff.

[IWasThere2016]

Going by Dundee's track record, they've shown no responsibility whatsoever when it comes to their finances, so having £15m and a car park would either just have bought them a little more time, or made their crash more spectacular.

I don't think we'd be where we are without £15m and a car park, as in we wouldn't have a completed stadium or a training centre, however we'd be on the right path to being where we are, given that STF's stated intention when he bought the club was to stabilise it and make us self-sufficient.

I did say we owe STF everything :wink:

[PaulSmith]

The old Car Park query and the Hibernian Holdings question. What's next Morston securities?

I cant find the thread in the vault but it's maybe worth another viewing.

[matty_f]

I did say we owe STF everything :wink:

You are allowed to just acknowledge I'm right, you know.:greengrin

[superfurryhibby]

How do you think he should have dealt with it?

Maybe stopped squeezing the football team so hard and given us the lot?

What about the money made from thh sale of the land at Straiton, any figures for that. I remember the "Hands on Hibs" guys suggesting that there was a rather substantial profit on all of that but little or none of the money ever found it's way back to the football club.

He is Sir Tom Farmer , not saint and he got that title for being a successful venture capitalist. Sir Tom has done well out of Hibs, it's a two way thing?

[matty_f]

Maybe stopped squeezing the football team so hard and given us the lot?

What about the money made from thh sale of the land at Straiton, any figures for that. I remember the "Hands on Hibs" guys suggesting that there was a rather substantial profit on all of that but little or none of the money ever found it's way back to the football club.

He is Sir Tom Farmer , not saint and he got that title for being a successful venture capitalist. Sir Tom has done well out of Hibs, it's a two way thing?

Did Hibs buy the land at Straiton to warrant getting the proceeds from any sale?

[Caversham Green]

The car park and land that was sold ultimately belonged to Hibernian Football Club anyway, so STF just gave us back what was originally ours. Granted, after all the legal dealings, he possibly didn't have to, but that would have been a huge stab in the back to everyone connected to the club.





I don't have a problem with any of that. It is when people come on here hinting that there would be no Hibernian without STF or that he paid for the rebuilding of ER and E.M. when it is simply not true.

I have already said I am delighted that STF is our main man, after a sticky start to his reign, I don't think we could have wished for anybody better. I just wish people would see both sides of the coin rather than all this brown nose stuff.
Please don't think I was having a go at you with my comments. I just tend to view the matter from the opposite direction and get annoyed when people suggest that STF was only interested in making money out of the club when any rational analysis clearly shows otherwise.

On the car park, in 1991 STF (through the holding company) bought the stadium and land from the club for what at the time was a fair price. At that time the club also desperately needed that cash to survive. If STF was the sort of person certain people claim he is, that would have been the end of the matter and he would have been entitled to keep any profit he made at a later date. In fact he made a huge profit on the sale because of a planning redesignation and made sure the club benefitted in full from that profit, to the clear detriment of his other companies. I just find it a bit sad that some supposed fans of the club can't bring themselves to acknowledge that.

[Caversham Green]

Maybe stopped squeezing the football team so hard and given us the lot?

What about the money made from thh sale of the land at Straiton, any figures for that. I remember the "Hands on Hibs" guys suggesting that there was a rather substantial profit on all of that but little or none of the money ever found it's way back to the football club.

He is Sir Tom Farmer , not saint and he got that title for being a successful venture capitalist. Sir Tom has done well out of Hibs, it's a two way thing?

Three questions:

1. In what way has STF squeezed the football team hard?
2. What claim did the football club have on profits from the land a Straiton?
3. In what way has STF done well out of Hibs?

Edit: And a fourth one: the original question, how do you think the ownership and redevelopment of the stadium could have been dealt with in a way that benefitted the club more?

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The facts speak for themselves.


But which facts?



Or do they?

We should hold the facts accountable and ask them what they have to say for themselves!

If they don't - SACK THE FACTS!

[Kaiser1962]

:top marks as usual CG.

If its as easy as some are suggesting to make money out of a football club then why isnt everyone doing it. Oh hang on they are, they are playing at running a business and the debris stretches as far as the eye can see. Without STF Hibs as we knew them would have died without doubt. FC Hibernian of Leith links or whatever may have continued but STF had the neccessary financial clout to make this happen. There were no other interested parties, very few uniterested parties either, with the means or the ability to take on Mercer and Rowland. Initially the web of companies involved was considerable but I have no doubt, and nothing has happened since to make me reconsider, that this catalogue of companies and holding companies was created to protect a very fragile Hibernian Football Club (and it's home) from those that would do it harm. I cannot understand why there are those who still doubt this man's motives. As I alluded to before if we were having to pay this man the going rate for his services we could in no way afford him.


Please don't think I was having a go at you with my comments. I just tend to view the matter from the opposite direction and get annoyed when people suggest that STF was only interested in making money out of the club when any rational analysis clearly shows otherwise.

On the car park, in 1991 STF (through the holding company) bought the stadium and land from the club for what at the time was a fair price. At that time the club also desperately needed that cash to survive. If STF was the sort of person certain people claim he is, that would have been the end of the matter and he would have been entitled to keep any profit he made at a later date. In fact he made a huge profit on the sale because of a planning redesignation and made sure the club benefitted in full from that profit, to the clear detriment of his other companies. I just find it a bit sad that some supposed fans of the club can't bring themselves to acknowledge that.

[tamig]

And if anyone doubts that just take a look at the Dundee fans waiting to do battle with their board for making all the same mistakes again and taking their club to the brink of extinction for the second time in seven years. Reading the reports on the Dundee situation certainly puts in to perspective what has been achieved already at ER and what is still being achieved.

At the AGM next week and at every other opportunity, I hope someone will thank these men, and everyone else involved, for their continued part in saving and improving our football club.

GGTTH

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Absolutely. :agree:

[Hibercelona]

We are clearly in a far better way now than we were just before STF took over the club.

We'd have a cheek to complain TBH.

Who cares how much STF or RP have made from the club. They saved us and are keeping us a float.

[down-the-slope]

I'm pretty sure there'll be plenty of Board acloytes there to do just that.

Was reading about Dundee this morning - didn't think it would be long before one of the Board disciples was on preaching to us ungrateful barstewards that can't say a word against Farmer or Petrie.

Farmer has been good for Hibs, but Hibs have been good for him as well.

As for Petrie he'll get his ten per cent back in spades if and when Farmer ever sells, and his legacy will be selling anything that moves and a slavish devotion to the balance sheet.

PS - I dare you to post this kind of stuff again if a) we sell Riordan or indeed let his contract run down or b) get relegated...

:rolleyes: its a two way street where he can be the one doing the running down...but I know suggesting anything other than him walking on water is not allowed :slipper:

[MB62]

:top marks as usual CG.

If its as easy as some are suggesting to make money out of a football club then why isnt everyone doing it. Oh hang on they are, they are playing at running a business and the debris stretches as far as the eye can see. Without STF Hibs as we knew them would have died without doubt. FC Hibernian of Leith links or whatever may have continued but STF had the neccessary financial clout to make this happen. There were no other interested parties, very few uniterested parties either, with the means or the ability to take on Mercer and Rowland. Initially the web of companies involved was considerable but I have no doubt, and nothing has happened since to make me reconsider, that this catalogue of companies and holding companies was created to protect a very fragile Hibernian Football Club (and it's home) from those that would do it harm. I cannot understand why there are those who still doubt this man's motives. As I alluded to before if we were having to pay this man the going rate for his services we could in no way afford him.

That is where the problems is. You come out and state these things when the actual facts of the matter prove you wrong. There were other interested parties but the BoS chose STF because, I assume, he was a far more reliable risk financially, and IMO they have been proved correct, although we will never know that for a fact obviously.
I don't know if STF has made money out of Hibs, what I will say though is, he has not exactly put millions of his own cash into the club. He did double the price of the Famous Five Stand by his insistance that we put in a mezzanine floor, which the CLUB paid for, as we have with all the stands and East Mains, STF has basically been a reliable Guarantor for our bank LOANS.

I will say it again, I have nothing against STF, exactly the opposite now, which was not always the case in his early days in charge, but I accept he has been fantastic for the club and long may he continue being so.

[tamig]

That is where the problems is. You come out and state these things when the actual facts of the matter prove you wrong. There were other interested parties but the BoS chose STF because, I assume, he was a far more reliable risk financially, and IMO they have been proved correct, although we will never know that for a fact obviously.
I don't know if STF has made money out of Hibs, what I will say though is, he has not exactly put millions of his own cash into the club. He did double the price of the Famous Five Stand by his insistance that we put in a mezzanine floor, which the CLUB paid for, as we have with all the stands and East Mains, STF has basically been a reliable Guarantor for our bank LOANS.

I will say it again, I have nothing against STF, exactly the opposite now, which was not always the case in his early days in charge, but I accept he has been fantastic for the club and long may he continue being so.

You seem to be big on facts. How do you know for a fact how much money STF has pumped into the club then? I believe he has put several millions of his own cash into the club over the past 20 years. A considerable amount of millions.

You also come across as someone who wants to have a pop at anyone who tries to say anything positive - or at least put your negative spin on things. That's based on a few of your recent posts.

There are some folk on here who still have some positivity about them. Don't try and bring them down please.

[Bishop Hibee]

My point is this: O'Connor would've got his move eventually. Petrie sold him in the knowledge that for the upcoming semi-final a) Killen was injured b) Riordan was suspended. It left us with Benji as our only recognisable forward playing his first competitive game in Scotland. I challenged Petrie personally on this and his response was: "It's only one game"... - 'nuff said.

And FWIW I think either Petrie or Lindsay could go because there appears to be a great deal of overlap in their roles - and on another point, do you think Petrie's record of appointing managers is beyond reproach as well?

For the third time, the timing of the sale of some of our players has not been good.

I don't know the details of either Petrie or Lindsay's role and maybe one could go but a pay freeze for a few years wouldn't go amiss at least.

Nowhere did I say Petrie was beyond reproach so please don't make my opinions up.

Ironically, his most controversial appointment with the fans was Mowbray and he turned out to be the best. Blobby was a clown and Hughes, who I didn't want as Manager at the time but have backed and hope he turns it around, is looking at least as inept sadly.

Overall though, still pleased we had STF and Petrie over the last 20 years.

[new malkyhib]

For the third time, the timing of the sale of some of our players has not been good.

I don't know the details of either Petrie or Lindsay's role and maybe one could go but a pay freeze for a few years wouldn't go amiss at least.

Nowhere did I say Petrie was beyond reproach so please don't make my opinions up.

"Name a better board in Scottish football?"

A direct quote from yourself on your post no. 49 on this same thread. So not maybe "beyond reproach" but close enough eh?

And feel free to have the last word, but please don't patronise us who dare to question Petrie...deal?

[ekhibee]

I actually find the opening post quite a hard one to comment on. Using the Dundee example is one thing, but there are plenty of contrary examples of teams who have invested money in the team and reaped the benefits in the long term. If people actually think investing large amounts of money in the infrastructure without supplying the end product which basically supports that infrastructure, I can't really see how that works, maybe I need to be educated a bit more in how we are going to bask in the glory of having won the league cup twice in 2 years, not won the Scottish cup in well over a hundred, and a growing collection of managers, some of them popular, who have achieved the sum total of diddlysquat while they've been managing our team. But to be fair, this is not the fault of Sir Tom Farmer, who did save our club from extinction, and for that fact alone, he should be commended and never forgotten.
Maybe I'm too 'old school' with a romantic and unrealistic notion that the board should first and foremost show a commitment to the playing side of the club, and possibly spend a bit more bringing in a manager that does have some of the qualities that will help us take that next step. I'm maybe just as unrealistic to believe that if I see a chairman, or senior member of the board being interviewed, you can see the fire in their belly, a serious love and commitment to the club while still maintaining a realistic view of how the club can progress. To me, Rod Petrie, who's work for the club in certain areas should not be underestimated, has however never come across that way to me, but that certainly doesn't mean I don't regard him as an asset. It just means I would find it hard to glorify him the way some people on here do, rightly or wrongly.
My last point is that the opening post is quite similar in nature to some other threads that come up every so often over the last few years, opening up the argument as to whether you are for or against the current main men in charge of running the club. I'm not saying that this was the intention of the original poster at all, just that it is almost always going to end up in a debate about that particular topic. It's an interesting topic, so it's hardly surprising that there's a lot of comments by different people on the subject. But IMO, many people who do want to commend them vocally will do so at the AGM, providing they are in a position to attend. And let's not forget Scott Lindsay, who I've met, and to me anyway, is somebody I believe that can indeed take the club forward.

[Kaiser1962]

MB62 you have highlighted my post out of context. You have selected the bit where I say there were no other inetrested parties but exclude my caveat that said "with the means or the ability to take on Mercer and Rowland"
Of course there were others who tried, some genuinely, some maybe not so, but when the smoke cleared there were no other interested parties who could gain control from Rowland/Mercer (not BoS) BoS, for their part, would have been on an equally sound financial footing with Mercer but, at the time, they (Mercer/Farmer) were the only serious options.


That is where the problems is. You come out and state these things when the actual facts of the matter prove you wrong. There were other interested parties but the BoS chose STF because, I assume, he was a far more reliable risk financially, and IMO they have been proved correct, although we will never know that for a fact obviously.
I don't know if STF has made money out of Hibs, what I will say though is, he has not exactly put millions of his own cash into the club. He did double the price of the Famous Five Stand by his insistance that we put in a mezzanine floor, which the CLUB paid for, as we have with all the stands and East Mains, STF has basically been a reliable Guarantor for our bank LOANS.

I will say it again, I have nothing against STF, exactly the opposite now, which was not always the case in his early days in charge, but I accept he has been fantastic for the club and long may he continue being so.

[MB62]

You seem to be big on facts. How do you know for a fact how much money STF has pumped into the club then? I believe he has put several millions of his own cash into the club over the past 20 years. A considerable amount of millions.

You also come across as someone who wants to have a pop at anyone who tries to say anything positive - or at least put your negative spin on things. That's based on a few of your recent posts.

There are some folk on here who still have some positivity about them. Don't try and bring them down please.


I will say it again, I have nothing against STF, exactly the opposite now, which was not always the case in his early days in charge, but I accept he has been fantastic for the club and long may he continue being so.

Just in case you chose not to read that part, which was something I repeated from previous comments I made on this thread.
Never at any stage have I tried to bring anybody down. At worst, I have pointed out that their beliefs have been, shall I say, misguided.

Anyway, I will cease with this now as obviously everything in the Hibernian garden is extremely rosy.

[Caversham Green]

I actually find the opening post quite a hard one to comment on. Using the Dundee example is one thing, but there are plenty of contrary examples of teams who have invested money in the team and reaped the benefits in the long term. If people actually think investing large amounts of money in the infrastructure without supplying the end product which basically supports that infrastructure, I can't really see how that works, maybe I need to be educated a bit more in how we are going to bask in the glory of having won the league cup twice in 2 years, not won the Scottish cup in well over a hundred, and a growing collection of managers, some of them popular, who have achieved the sum total of diddlysquat while they've been managing our team. But to be fair, this is not the fault of Sir Tom Farmer, who did save our club from extinction, and for that fact alone, he should be commended and never forgotten.
Maybe I'm too 'old school' with a romantic and unrealistic notion that the board should first and foremost show a commitment to the playing side of the club, and possibly spend a bit more bringing in a manager that does have some of the qualities that will help us take that next step. I'm maybe just as unrealistic to believe that if I see a chairman, or senior member of the board being interviewed, you can see the fire in their belly, a serious love and commitment to the club while still maintaining a realistic view of how the club can progress. To me, Rod Petrie, who's work for the club in certain areas should not be underestimated, has however never come across that way to me, but that certainly doesn't mean I don't regard him as an asset. It just means I would find it hard to glorify him the way some people on here do, rightly or wrongly.
My last point is that the opening post is quite similar in nature to some other threads that come up every so often over the last few years, opening up the argument as to whether you are for or against the current main men in charge of running the club. I'm not saying that this was the intention of the original poster at all, just that it is almost always going to end up in a debate about that particular topic. It's an interesting topic, so it's hardly surprising that there's a lot of comments by different people on the subject. But IMO, many people who do want to commend them vocally will do so at the AGM, providing they are in a position to attend. And let's not forget Scott Lindsay, who I've met, and to me anyway, is somebody I believe that can indeed take the club forward.

A well-expressed post, and it's difficult to argue with it apart from one point. What clubs (within the context of Scottish football, because that's where our limits lie) have invested more in their team than Hibs and are reaping the benefits.

Genuine question, because from what I can see only two clubs in the SPL can feel reasonably confident about their ability to stay in business over the next 10 years, and one of them is Hibs.

[MB62]

A well-expressed post, and it's difficult to argue with it apart from one point. What clubs (within the context of Scottish football, because that's where our limits lie) have invested more in their team than Hibs and are reaping the benefits.

Genuine question, because from what I can see only two clubs in the SPL can feel reasonably confident about their ability to stay in business over the next 10 years, and one of them is Hibs.

Being a bit of a devil's advocate here CG and at the risk of being branded Mr Negative again, can I ask, If there are only two clubs in the SPL going to survive in the next 10 years, either Scottish football is complete finished and therefore there is no point in being only one of two survivors, or we are going to be playing against the like of Alloa, East Fife, Stirling Albion etc for the rest of our days?

We might of course be able to apply to join the bottom league in engerland, if they would accept us, and hope to work our way up, that's a possibility (and a positive :thumbsup:)

[superfurryhibby]

Three questions:

1. In what way has STF squeezed the football team hard?
2. What claim did the football club have on profits from the land a Straiton?
3. In what way has STF done well out of Hibs?

Edit: And a fourth one: the original question, how do you think the ownership and redevelopment of the stadium could have been dealt with in a way that benefitted the club more?

The profits from the Lochend Butterfly? Why did the club not get all the monies raised, after costs etc?

Straiton-The football club owned this land prior to STF's involvement and his holding company were able to sell it at some substantial profit. The figures that have been rumoured were in the tens of millions.

These points alone would suggest that he did not bad out of the supposed initial 250,000k he invested as the bank's preferred bidder. The football club was in trouble thanks to the dodgy dealings of Rowland and his puppets but there were also substantial assets, as history has subsequently shown

There have been other issues, some of them potentially in the realms of libellous. I seem to recall Hands on Hibs getting some significant coverage on the Straiton investment issue and other matters (catering contracts going "in-house"). There was no resprt to litigation and not so long after the stadium ownership was generously returned by STF the magnanimous to the football club.

STF's reign has seen the team relegated, build a modern stadium, sell every asset that arises, mostly to our rivals, win two league cups, fund a training complex which it may or may not actually own? We got ourselves into near 20 million worth of debt and recovered by the good fortune of selling a once in a generaation crop of young talented players. There is a board that is top heavy and pay themselves what some might say is an overly generous rate. It could have been worse, much worse but it could also have been better.

[Caversham Green]

Being a bit of a devil's advocate here CG and at the risk of being branded Mr Negative again, can I ask, If there are only two clubs in the SPL going to survive in the next 10 years, either Scottish football is complete finished and therefore there is no point in being only one of two survivors, or we are going to be playing against the like of Alloa, East Fife, Stirling Albion etc for the rest of our days?

We might of course be able to apply to join the bottom league in engerland, if they would accept us, and hope to work our way up, that's a possibility (and a positive :thumbsup:)

I didn't say that only two clubs will survive, I said that only two had reasonable confidence of surviving - i.e. the ten others have some serious worries about their future. Most will overcome their problems one way or another, but I am convinced that at least one SPL/former SPL club will go out of business (not just into administration) in the next few years. The two least likely to do so are Hibs and Celtc. Dundee look most likely right now, but I would still be nervous if I was a Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United or even Rangers fan.

[Caversham Green]

The profits from the Lochend Butterfly? Why did the club not get all the monies raised, after costs etc?

Straiton-The football club owned this land prior to STF's involvement and his holding company were able to sell it at some substantial profit. The figures that have been rumoured were in the tens of millions.

These points alone would suggest that he did not bad out of the supposed initial 250,000k he invested as the bank's preferred bidder. The football club was in trouble thanks to the dodgy dealings of Rowland and his puppets but there were also substantial assets, as history has subsequently shown

There have been other issues, some of them potentially in the realms of libellous. I seem to recall Hands on Hibs getting some significant coverage on the Straiton investment issue and other matters (catering contracts going "in-house"). There was no resprt to litigation and not so long after the stadium ownership was generously returned by STF the magnanimous to the football club.

STF's reign has seen the team relegated, build a modern stadium, sell every asset that arises, mostly to our rivals, win two league cups, fund a training complex which it may or may not actually own? We got ourselves into near 20 million worth of debt and recovered by the good fortune of selling a once in a generaation crop of young talented players. There is a board that is top heavy and pay themselves what some might say is an overly generous rate. It could have been worse, much worse but it could also have been better.

As far as I'm aware neither the Lochend Butterfly, not Straiton ever belonged to Hibs (or their holding company) during STF's ownership although there were proposals to introduce both for the potential benefit of the club. The assets owned by the club were more than cancelled out by the liabilities which is why Mercer got involved in the first place. I'm not prepared to comment on your other points unless you specify and verify them.

I'll ask again: how do you think the ownership and redevelopment of the stadium could have been dealt with in a way that benefitted the club more?

[PaulSmith]

The profits from the Lochend Butterfly? Why did the club not get all the monies raised, after costs etc?

Straiton-The football club owned this land prior to STF's involvement and his holding company were able to sell it at some substantial profit. The figures that have been rumoured were in the tens of millions.

These points alone would suggest that he did not bad out of the supposed initial 250,000k he invested as the bank's preferred bidder. The football club was in trouble thanks to the dodgy dealings of Rowland and his puppets but there were also substantial assets, as history has subsequently shown

There have been other issues, some of them potentially in the realms of libellous. I seem to recall Hands on Hibs getting some significant coverage on the Straiton investment issue and other matters (catering contracts going "in-house"). There was no resprt to litigation and not so long after the stadium ownership was generously returned by STF the magnanimous to the football club.

STF's reign has seen the team relegated, build a modern stadium, sell every asset that arises, mostly to our rivals, win two league cups, fund a training complex which it may or may not actually own? We got ourselves into near 20 million worth of debt and recovered by the good fortune of selling a once in a generaation crop of young talented players. There is a board that is top heavy and pay themselves what some might say is an overly generous rate. It could have been worse, much worse but it could also have been better.

I've heard this point rumoured many a time but looking back as far as I can with the accounts I can see no evidence of Hibernian FC or the holding company ever buying land at Straiton. The two share issue by Duff/Gray bought Avon Inns and another company who's name escapes me at this time (IVOCO?) and this is detailed in the old accounts.

If you or anyone else is able to find evidence of Hibernian or any other holding company buying acres of land up at Straiton then I'd love to see them.

Re Lochend Butterlfy - Hibs wanted to buy this piece of land but were shafted by the council at the time and lost out. This would've made Hibs several million pounds at the time as they could've sold the car park plus the Lochend Butterfly in a oner.

[MB62]

I didn't say that only two clubs will survive, I said that only two had reasonable confidence of surviving - i.e. the ten others have some serious worries about their future. Most will overcome their problems one way or another, but I am convinced that at least one SPL/former SPL club will go out of business (not just into administration) in the next few years. The two least likely to do so are Hibs and Celtc. Dundee look most likely right now, but I would still be nervous if I was a Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United or even Rangers fan.

Apologies again C.G. I wasn't having a dash, it just amused me to think of (Hibs & Celtic) two teams playing each other every other week, or playing against present lower league teams, IF you scenario ever came about.
As I said, I was being a :devil:

I actually agree with you that I too think there will be clubs going bust and there will be a good few in administration, an easy way out of making a complete balls up of your running that particular club, and something which punishes clubs like ours who have their house in order.

[Caversham Green]

Apologies again C.G. I wasn't having a dash, it just amused me to think of (Hibs & Celtic) two teams playing each other every other week, or playing against present lower league teams, IF you scenario ever came about.
As I said, I was being a :devil:

I actually agree with you that I too think there will be clubs going bust and there will be a good few in administration, an easy way out of making a complete balls up of your running that particular club, and something which punishes clubs like ours who have their house in order.

No need to apologise mate, the point did look a bit daft on the face of it.

[Kaiser1962]

Straiton has never been owned by Hibs nor its holding company. The land you refer to is owned by Farmer along with Tom Harrison. The only link was this was the proposed sight of the "shared stadium" and, I recall, Farmer even took pelter for that as the land was deemed by some to be useless as it had old mineworking or some such thing. Allowing for the fact that we did not ever own any land at Straiton where does that leave your issue with "STF the magnaminous"?

Same with the Lochend butterfly although we (the club) owned part of that. Farmer bid for the land as it was deemed not for residential use and the council then allowed a plan for residential use and would not let Farmer alter his bid to residential planning. Farmer took the council to court.

The profits from the Lochend Butterfly? Why did the club not get all the monies raised, after costs etc?

Straiton-The football club owned this land prior to STF's involvement and his holding company were able to sell it at some substantial profit. The figures that have been rumoured were in the tens of millions.

These points alone would suggest that he did not bad out of the supposed initial 250,000k he invested as the bank's preferred bidder. The football club was in trouble thanks to the dodgy dealings of Rowland and his puppets but there were also substantial assets, as history has subsequently shown

There have been other issues, some of them potentially in the realms of libellous. I seem to recall Hands on Hibs getting some significant coverage on the Straiton investment issue and other matters (catering contracts going "in-house"). There was no resprt to litigation and not so long after the stadium ownership was generously returned by STF the magnanimous to the football club.

STF's reign has seen the team relegated, build a modern stadium, sell every asset that arises, mostly to our rivals, win two league cups, fund a training complex which it may or may not actually own? We got ourselves into near 20 million worth of debt and recovered by the good fortune of selling a once in a generaation crop of young talented players. There is a board that is top heavy and pay themselves what some might say is an overly generous rate. It could have been worse, much worse but it could also have been better.

[PaulSmith]

I'm even sure that Hibs posted on the official site a few year back what STFs involvement in the club was?

[superfurryhibby]

Straiton has never been owned by Hibs nor its holding company. The land you refer to is owned by Farmer along with Tom Harrison. The only link was this was the proposed sight of the "shared stadium" and, I recall, Farmer even took pelter for that as the land was deemed by some to be useless as it had old mineworking or some such thing. Allowing for the fact that we did not ever own any land at Straiton where does that leave your issue with "STF the magnaminous"?

Same with the Lochend butterfly although we (the club) owned part of that. Farmer bid for the land as it was deemed not for residential use and the council then allowed a plan for residential use and would not let Farmer alter his bid to residential planning. Farmer took the council to court.

Facts: There are no facts, just "I recalls"

Straiton :I recall that this land was owned by the football club pre-STF involvement with Hibs. The holding company (allegedly) made vast sums of cash from it's subsequent sale when STF took over.

he " Lochend Butterfly". He may have purchased additional land in order to make the proposed development viable but the large swathe was clearly and unambigously owned by Hibs and hadbeen long before STF put his £250,000 in to Hibs.

[flash]

Facts: There are no facts, just "I recalls"

Straiton :I recall that this land was owned by the football club pre-STF involvement with Hibs. The holding company (allegedly) made vast sums of cash from it's subsequent sale when STF took over.

he " Lochend Butterfly". He may have purchased additional land in order to make the proposed development viable but the large swathe was clearly and unambigously owned by Hibs and hadbeen long before STF put his £250,000 in to Hibs.

I am baffled by the Straiton part of this. Why would Hibs own land up there prior to the Mercer takeover bid? And even more puzzling is why someone would pay millions for the land subsequently yet it's still an empty field years later.

Bizarre.

[Kaiser1962]

The "I recall" bit of my post was that "I recall" that STF got some pelters for trying to move us to the shared stadium in Straiton as some felt that he was utilising useless land that he already owned. Morston Assetts (Farmer/Harrison) owned Straiton (still does along with huge swathes of the British countryside) and Farmer owns Hibs therein lies the link but Hibs have never owned the land at Straiton.

What happened at Lochend with Edinburgh Council is well documented.


Facts: There are no facts, just "I recalls"

Straiton :I recall that this land was owned by the football club pre-STF involvement with Hibs. The holding company (allegedly) made vast sums of cash from it's subsequent sale when STF took over.

he " Lochend Butterfly". He may have purchased additional land in order to make the proposed development viable but the large swathe was clearly and unambigously owned by Hibs and hadbeen long before STF put his £250,000 in to Hibs.

[superfurryhibby]

I am baffled by the Straiton part of this. Why would Hibs own land up there prior to the Mercer takeover bid? And even more puzzling is why someone would pay millions for the land subsequently yet it's still an empty field years later.

Bizarre.

No, HIbs owned the land with a view to development of a new Stadium with retail associations. You would be surprised at what Hibs owned back then, not all of it good or wise in the investment sense.Clearly the Duff/Gray muppets had the good fortune to purchase land there that later made the holding company millions.

Land that is undeveloped? Eh, retail park and IKea.

[bawheid]

No, HIbs owned the land with a view to development of a new Stadium with retail associations. You would be surprised at what Hibs owned back then, not all of it good or wise in the investment sense.Clearly the Duff/Gray muppets had the good fortune to purchase land there that later made the holding company millions.


I'm not sure this is right.

[flash]

cheers for that its all very interesting even after all this time.
didnt realise ikea etc. was built on land previously owned by stf.

[Caversham Green]

I'm not sure this is right.

Rod doesn't think so either:


When asked about there being any residual land at Straiton being part of the deal when Sir Tom bought Hibs, Mr Petrie answer was “Categorically Not” and that it was “one of these things and a myth that grows and grows”The article goes on to say that STF paid £800k for the club and £1.75m for the stadium and car park.

[MB62]

Facts: There are no facts, just "I recalls"

Straiton :I recall that this land was owned by the football club pre-STF involvement with Hibs. The holding company (allegedly) made vast sums of cash from it's subsequent sale when STF took over.

My recollection of this was that it STF and his business partner that owned the land at Straiton. STF was going to be 'kind' (?) enough to give us the land for nothing to allow us to build a new stadium (they yams were only mentioned as a possible share job when their finances were declared under Robinson, if I remember correctly).
Of course this kind? gesture by STF would have been offset by the fact he now owned prime land in the shape of Easter Road Stadium and the connecting land.

I am delighted to say I was part of the 'Frustraiton' campaign (amongst many other things) that fought long and hard to keep the Hibees at Easter Road, the results of which are now gloriously on view.

[bawheid]

My recollection of this was that it STF and his business partner that owned the land at Straiton. STF was going to be 'kind' (?) enough to give us the land for nothing to allow us to build a new stadium (they yams were only mentioned as a possible share job when their finances were declared under Robinson, if I remember correctly).
Of course this kind? gesture by STF would have been offset by the fact he now owned prime land in the shape of Easter Road Stadium and the connecting land.

I am delighted to say I was part of the 'Frustraiton' campaign (amongst many other things) that fought long and hard to keep the Hibees at Easter Road, the results of which are now gloriously on view.

Pretty much what I recall (although I was quite young at the time). However, surely the land at Easter Road would have been used to Hibs benefit rather than Sir Tom Farmer's?

[PaulSmith]

No, HIbs owned the land with a view to development of a new Stadium with retail associations. You would be surprised at what Hibs owned back then, not all of it good or wise in the investment sense.Clearly the Duff/Gray muppets had the good fortune to purchase land there that later made the holding company millions.

Land that is undeveloped? Eh, retail park and IKea.

Unless your actually able to provide any tangible proof of this then I'd suggest that it is clearly a myth that is peddled by our Hearts supporting neighbours in the same light that they try to do with Morston Assets.

Edit - If anyone can be bothered I'm sure the British Land Registry can put this to bed once and for all

[dangermouse]

My recollection is that Farmer owned (probably still does) the land and when the proposed stadium build was being muted, Farmer was going to sell the ground to Hibs for £1.00 or some other ridiculously low amount.

[Kaiser1962]

My recollection is that Farmer owned (probably still does) the land and when the proposed stadium build was being muted, Farmer was going to sell the ground to Hibs for £1.00 or some other ridiculously low amount.

The sales of both ER and Tynie were to be used to clear both clubs debts at that time and hopefully leave enough over to build the best part of a 20,000 seater stadium at Straiton. After both clubs debts were cleared there would still be a shortfall in the build cost of the stadium and talks were entered into for Edinburgh Council to meet the shortfall, failing that it would have been left to Farmer. I think the Yams were suspicious that they would be somehow the lesser partners in this arrangement and saw Farmer, and therefore Hibs, as holding all the aces. The land was, as you say, basically free.

[Mikey]

No need.

4 pages so far. Do you still think there's "no need"? :greengrin

[sesoim]

Tom Farmer deserves huge credit for buying Hibs and taking on hassle (and risks) he didn't need back in 1990. But he hasn't had to do a lot since - just give us the odd loan (I'd assume with a reasonable amount of interest added on), and frankly, Hibs were, as most clubs were in 1990, totally undervalued. If you look around other club valuations at that time (eg Man Utd who Michael Knighton tried to buy for just £20M), most clubs exploded in value from the late 90s onwards.

Hibs cost about £2M from my recollection and I would guess they would be valued at around £25M now. So although I'm grateful to him for saving Hibs, I don't think we should pretend he's had to make great sacrifices to prop Hibs up. Hibs have been a good investment for him.

[Mikey]

The thread about the money from the car park sale is here by the way..........

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?135671-So-what-happened-to-the-money-from-the-car-park&daysprune=-1

[Kaiser1962]

As you say sesoim the club looks pretty healthy at the moment (apart from on the pitch!) but this was not always the case. The early nineties and post relegation years spring to mind and had we done the valuation of the investment then we would have come up with a very different result. We are where we are due to prudent spending, sound business management and a bit of good fortune. As Caversham Green pointed out there are only two clubs in the SPL who you could (almost) guarantee will still be here in their present form in ten years time and we're one of them. Its interesting to note that the other (Celtic) were also extremely close to going out of existence around the same time as us.



Tom Farmer deserves huge credit for buying Hibs and taking on hassle (and risks) he didn't need back in 1990. But he hasn't had to do a lot since - just give us the odd loan (I'd assume with a reasonable amount of interest added on), and frankly, Hibs were, as most clubs were in 1990, totally undervalued. If you look around other club valuations at that time (eg Man Utd who Michael Knighton tried to buy for just £20M), most clubs exploded in value from the late 90s onwards.

Hibs cost about £2M from my recollection and I would guess they would be valued at around £25M now. So although I'm grateful to him for saving Hibs, I don't think we should pretend he's had to make great sacrifices to prop Hibs up. Hibs have been a good investment for him.

[CentreLine]

4 pages so far. Do you still think there's "no need"? :greengrin

Absolutely!

My original point still stands. If STF and his incredibly able appointee RP had not shown such strong character and financial sense in the past twenty years we would have been right back at the wall a long time since. Just as Dundee are now. We have seen continuous progress and growth and in five years time I firmly believe we will have made similarly well managed progress without endangering the previous good work.

It is fantastic to see three pages of debate because not one word of a single post could have been written had it not been for that timely intervention of STF and RP to Hibernian FC.

Tin hat? No chance.

I regret I will not be at the AGM but I would very much hope that someone will make that point and publicly thank those two individuals

[Stonewall]

Tom Farmer deserves huge credit for buying Hibs and taking on hassle (and risks) he didn't need back in 1990. But he hasn't had to do a lot since - just give us the odd loan (I'd assume with a reasonable amount of interest added on), and frankly, Hibs were, as most clubs were in 1990, totally undervalued. If you look around other club valuations at that time (eg Man Utd who Michael Knighton tried to buy for just £20M), most clubs exploded in value from the late 90s onwards.

Hibs cost about £2M from my recollection and I would guess they would be valued at around £25M now. So although I'm grateful to him for saving Hibs, I don't think we should pretend he's had to make great sacrifices to prop Hibs up. Hibs have been a good investment for him.

Sorry but where did 25m come from?

[Hibby D]

4 pages so far. Do you still think there's "no need"? :greengrin


Or one page if, like me, you have your settings at 100 posts per page :hijack:

[Removed]

Or one page if, like me, you have your settings at 100 posts per page :hijack:

How big is your screen D :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

Sorry but where did 25m come from?

I think the £25m valuation is debatable as well, but more pertinently, any increase in the value of the club is only paper profit. Until STF sells up he can't spend a penny of the gain he's made on the value of his shares. IMO, that will be the time to assess how well he has done out of the club if we have to at all.

In any case, an increase in the value of the shares is the result of an improvement in the fortunes of Hibernian FC, so unless he starts taking value out of the club, STF doing well out of Hibs means Hibs are doing well and I'm all for that.

I hope he makes an absolute fortune.

[cockneymike]

In any case, an increase in the value of the shares is the result of an improvement in the fortunes of Hibernian FC, so unless he starts taking value out of the club, STF doing well out of Hibs means Hibs are doing well and I'm all for that.

I hope he makes an absolute fortune.

And so say all of us! :agree:

[Peevemor]

I think the £25m valuation is debatable as well, but more pertinently, any increase in the value of the club is only paper profit. Until STF sells up he can't spend a penny of the gain he's made on the value of his shares. IMO, that will be the time to assess how well he has done out of the club if we have to at all.

In any case, an increase in the value of the shares is the result of an improvement in the fortunes of Hibernian FC, so unless he starts taking value out of the club, STF doing well out of Hibs means Hibs are doing well and I'm all for that.

I hope he makes an absolute fortune.

Exactly, look at what Fergus McCann did with Celtc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_McCann

He made millions in profit but only because he totally transformed the club.