A sense of perspective

[brog]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

[Liberal Hibby]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

Spot on.:thumbsup:

[portyfelly]

reasonable... true!!

[bawheid]

Great post brog :top marks

[Antifa Hibs]

So Hibs fans, supporters of the 3rd biggest club in Scotland. A club with the 3rd/4th biggest fanbase in Scotland, best stadium, finances and training facilities outside Glasgow, club with the 4th biggest wage bill etc etc etc should accept getting pumped from St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Hamilton cos its happened before. Should accept something like 4 wins in 22 as we have been in worse positions?

[Captain Trips]

We have only been in worse places if you remember them some fans havent been going for 10, 20 years some only a few years and this to them may well be poor. I dont really think being in worse positions before makes any difference anyway.

[Jonnyboy]

So Hibs fans, supporters of the 3rd biggest club in Scotland. A club with the 3rd/4th biggest fanbase in Scotland, best stadium, finances and training facilities outside Glasgow, club with the 4th biggest wage bill etc etc etc should accept getting pumped from St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Hamilton cos its happened before. Should accept something like 4 wins in 22 as we have been in worse positions?


We have only been in worse places if you remember them some fans havent been going for 10, 20 years some only a few years and this to them may well be poor. I dont really think being in worse positions before makes any difference anyway.

Think you're being a tad harsh here guys. Nowhere does brog imply we've got to accept our current position. It's purely and simply a 'keep the faith' message.

[borstalboy]

Good post and I think everyone will always support the team. My blood will always run green.

However, this is something that has never been faced in History before, not winning at Home for 9 games....I dont know if its a record that we've only won 4 in 26?! (probably not but I dont know). In my time as a Hibs fan, I dont think the performances have ever been as bad.....I could take getting beat if the performances were up to a good standard.

[Just Jimmy]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

fair enough post, and I except it's not always rosey. In fact, I'd guess the majority of Hibs fans do. I don't except the 'we've always been ***** so it's ok that we're ***** now' arguement that's often put across.

(I acceopt your post was saying take the rough with the smooth).

[Hibby 2005]

It's about time we stopped underachieving then.

As has been said several times before, we now have a top-class infrastructure including the ground, training facilities and youth set-up. It really is about time we got the team on the park right and that includes a new Manager who can get the best out of all the above.

[brog]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm certainly not looking at the current situation with rose tinted specs, nor am I saying our current form is acceptable. I am saying, as the thread is titled, to try & keep a sense of perspective. We've been in much worse situations before & quickly turned it around. The 8 consecutive league defeats in 1960 followed by us scoring 4 goals in Barcelona 2 months later is classic Hibs, & we didn't change managers after the 8 defeats. :wink:
Again, I'm not a huge Yogi fan but I'm not necessarily convinced a new manager would dramatically change things for the better. For every person who wanted Collins or Mixu out there's another one who would now take them back!
I suggest we back the team fully at least through to December. If we've improved great, if not Yogi falls on his sword & a new guy has 4 to 6 months to sort out league position & win the cup! For now though I feel the constant negativity is damaging the team & encouragement from the stands could help turn our season around.

[vahibbie]

Think you're being a tad harsh here guys. Nowhere does brog imply we've got to accept our current position. It's purely and simply a 'keep the faith' message.

Yes it is.....and unfortunately that's all it is. Just sit back and wait because historically things will eventually get better so we don't need to get too worked up or complain very much.
We are in better shape as a club (infra-structure wise) than we have ever been so we should actually be seeing some sort of stability. Hopefully we are not going to stabalise in the bottom half of the league.

[Sudds_1]

I'm probnably in the same sitaution as Brog. Seen it all, suffered the many lows, enjoyed the few highs - all that comes with being a Hibs Supporter.

For me though the difference this time is perhaps the arrogance and disregard being shown to the fans as we endure yet another low period. Now that might just be down to the inability of an inarticulate manager to express himself.....but if that were the case it would be a matter of 1 faux pax - not several all pointed outwards at the long suffering support, rather than inwards.

Never in my 35 years experience has the fan base come under that kind of "dig". It's certainly a first for an under fire manager to invite the paying support to shut up and leave expressions of opinion to the "fitba" fraternity....

...I thought that's what we were? :wink:

[erin go bragh]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!
:top marks:top marks:top marks:top marks:top marks:top marks:top marksGGTTH

[erin go bragh]

good post and i think everyone will always support the team. My blood will always run green.

However, this is something that has never been faced in history before, not winning at home for 9 games....i dont know if its a record that we've only won 4 in 26?! (probably not but i dont know). In my time as a hibs fan, i dont think the performances have ever been as bad.....i could take getting beat if the performances were up to a good standard.
did we no go between 13 to 16 games with no wins under duffy

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it's my sense of perspective that has me so worried about the current situation. Taking a step back and seeing the mistakes, and having a fair idea why they are happening, makes me uncomfortable with the current manager.

Excellent OP btw.

[Ray_]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

I suppose it is the fact we are going backwards instead of where we should be going, which is the problem for most.

Just a couple of things, when we went those games in 60/61, even before we beat Barcelona, we still had Joe Baker to look forward to watching.

The current bad run is longer than the time Dave Ewing was in charge of Hibs & Mr Ewing did re-sign Joe Baker & brought us victory at the PBS, on the way to a Scottish Cup semi, where Rangers beat us, rather luckily, in a replay at Hampden [that would be classified as a success now] & he did make the famous statement "Rangers are Rubbish" & his final game was when we put five past MVV Maastrict, makes a change from today, where it is us at the end of the hammerings from the Dutch [and other European teams].

In short, Dave Ewing's reign was far better than what we are getting now.

[Vini1875]

I'm probnably in the same sitaution as Brog. Seen it all, suffered the many lows, enjoyed the few highs - all that comes with being a Hibs Supporter.

For me though the difference this time is perhaps the arrogance and disregard being shown to the fans as we endure yet another low period. Now that might just be down to the inability of an inarticulate manager to express himself.....but if that were the case it would be a matter of 1 faux pax - not several all pointed outwards at the long suffering support, rather than inwards.

Never in my 35 years experience has the fan base come under that kind of "dig". It's certainly a first for an under fire manager to invite the paying support to shut up and leave expressions of opinion to the "fitba" fraternity....

...I thought that's what we were? :wink:

I'm sure I remember Alex Miller having a few digs at the fans, when many were unhappy at the way we were playing. He certainly had a get it up ye speech ready when we won the League Cup in '91. That might not have been entirely aimed at the fans but it certainly was in part.

Part of the problem now is forums like this one where fans can go on and on, heaping one negative on another and where we mostly want instant results. I think supporting Hibs at the moment might be a bit easier if papers, TV and internet was avoided.

[Ray_]

I'm sure I remember Alex Miller having a few digs at the fans, when many were unhappy at the way we were playing. He certainly had a get it up ye speech ready when we won the League Cup in '91. That might not have been entirely aimed at the fans but it certainly was in part.

Part of the problem now is forums like this one where fans can go on and on, heaping one negative on another and where we mostly want instant results. I think supporting Hibs at the moment might be a bit easier if papers, TV and internet was avoided.

Easier still if you avoid the games as well :)

[Alfred E Newman]

I'm sure I remember Alex Miller having a few digs at the fans, when many were unhappy at the way we were playing. He certainly had a get it up ye speech ready when we won the League Cup in '91. That might not have been entirely aimed at the fans but it certainly was in part.

Part of the problem now is forums like this one where fans can go on and on, heaping one negative on another and where we mostly want instant results. I think supporting Hibs at the moment might be a bit easier if papers, TV and internet was avoided.

The worst bit about supporting Hibs at the moment is actually attending the games. I have been watching them for more years than I care to remember and I agree, there have been some pretty dire periods during that time and certainly more lows than highs.
Last Saturday provided a new experience for me. It may be my age but during the second half I actually felt myself nodding off a couple of times.
The quality of football and lack of excitement over the past few weeks has been as poor as I can remember and no amount of positive spin is going to change that.

[thebakerboy]

I agree with most of the OP statement but that doesnt mean we have to just sit back and say nothing.I have listened to all yogis statements and have been getting a bit teed off at him , but just watching the build up to the Portsmouth v Leicester game and both managers have been saying much the same as Yogi and they are bottom and 3rd bottom of the Championship in England. So though I have been one of the :taxi for Yogi brigade this week I am , after seeing clubs worse off (relatively ) than us , mellowing slightly but a big change is needed and fast.

[JohnScott]

So Hibs fans, supporters of the 3rd biggest club in Scotland. A club with the 3rd/4th biggest fanbase in Scotland, best stadium, finances and training facilities outside Glasgow, club with the 4th biggest wage bill etc etc etc should accept getting pumped from St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Hamilton cos its happened before. Should accept something like 4 wins in 22 as we have been in worse positions?

Agree 100%. Seems the gist of this thread is: We were s**tier than this years ago so we should be accepting were s**t now. Like the OP I've seen Hibs relegated twice, so what? The squad of players at Easter Road now would have kept us up back then no problems. That's what's so annoying now. We all know the present team is capable of so much more.

As for the Hibs fans? 5500 to Dunbarton to help us avoid relegation, cheered off the park at ER after defeats, 2 - 3 v Partick, 0 - 5 against Aberdeen........countless times following league stuffings at Pittodrie, Parkhead, Ibrox........ too damned many to list. Not because we were half-wits but purely down to the fact we could see the team was giving 100% and frankly playing as well as they were capable. The Hibs support doesn't need to justify itself to anyone.

Nowadays we pay a larger proportion of our income to continue supporting the team. As Jim McLean says, "more for less." We also have a manager that comes out with remarks like "If they know their football" and "little people". Maybe he's right, maybe we're all thick and should just go elsewhere on a saturday. Then he can join "his boys" on the nearest empty public park.

For the benefit of the younger fans on here (and those older ones who hark back to previous "bad times")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSaY75jHC-4&p=8BBE330460917FF1&playnext=1&index=11

[HibsMax]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

Love your post, in a platonic way of course.

I'm not sure that Yogi is the man for the job but I do wonder if there is anyone out there who could have done better. Anyone out there who COULD do better.

I said in another thread that I think that Hibs have had enough time to rebuild the club from an infrastructure perspective and now it's time to start investing in the team. Until we get to such a stage I don't think that any manager is going to be able to settle and do things they way he truly wants to. That goes for any manager, not just Yogi.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Agree 100%. Seems the gist of this thread is: We were s**tier than this years ago so we should be accepting were s**t now. Like the OP I've seen Hibs relegated twice, so what? The squad of players at Easter Road now would have kept us up back then no problems. That's what's so annoying now. We all know the present team is capable of so much more.

As for the Hibs fans? 5500 to Dunbarton to help us avoid relegation, cheered off the park at ER after defeats, 2 - 3 v Partick, 0 - 5 against Aberdeen........countless times following league stuffings at Pittodrie, Parkhead, Ibrox........ too damned many to list. Not because we were half-wits but purely down to the fact we could see the team was giving 100% and frankly playing as well as they were capable. The Hibs support doesn't need to justify itself to anyone.

Nowadays we pay a larger proportion of our income to continue supporting the team. As Jim McLean says, "more for less." We also have a manager that comes out with remarks like "If they know their football" and "little people". Maybe he's right, maybe we're all thick and should just go elsewhere on a saturday. Then he can join "his boys" on the nearest empty public park.

For the benefit of the younger fans on here (and those older ones who hark back to previous "bad times")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSaY75jHC-4&p=8BBE330460917FF1&playnext=1&index=11

The same goes for the dark days when Miller was up against it IMO. Those who thought about accepted the reality the club had to face. That is what is so frustrating just now, the board has been prudent, and been able to release more money of late.

Yet we see a reversal on the pitch. These players can do better, and look like they want to. We've seen wasters in the past, but IMO this lot don't deserve that label.

[HFC 0-7]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm certainly not looking at the current situation with rose tinted specs, nor am I saying our current form is acceptable. I am saying, as the thread is titled, to try & keep a sense of perspective. We've been in much worse situations before & quickly turned it around. The 8 consecutive league defeats in 1960 followed by us scoring 4 goals in Barcelona 2 months later is classic Hibs, & we didn't change managers after the 8 defeats. :wink:
Again, I'm not a huge Yogi fan but I'm not necessarily convinced a new manager would dramatically change things for the better. For every person who wanted Collins or Mixu out there's another one who would now take them back!
I suggest we back the team fully at least through to December. If we've improved great, if not Yogi falls on his sword & a new guy has 4 to 6 months to sort out league position & win the cup! For now though I feel the constant negativity is damaging the team & encouragement from the stands could help turn our season around.

Yogi lost 6 league games on the bounce last season and had some very embarrassing results in the cup and league and wasnt sacked. For all the bad points at the end of last season i think most gave him a chance to get some new signings and turn things around. We are now well underway in the new season and we are continuing the bad form even after Yogi has been busy in the transfer window. Something you have never seen is the home form which Yogi has managed to shatter the previous record.

Not just the results or the performances are what people are taking into account here, but what appears as a completely blinkered manager as he is refusing to acknowledge our performances as bad.

If you wait until December for a new manager and what budget is left will probably not be enough for a new manager to turn things around. Also if you leave it too long and we are at the bottom of the league why would we be appealing for a manager to come to?

I admire people for seeing the positives but some people search for them when they just arent there. We have just seen the latest financial results which basically showed, even with a good league placing we were struggling to break even. If we fail to get into the top six and get pumped out the scottish cup early it will mean falling attendances, reduced season ticket renewals which ultimately results in a lower budget and any good players we still have will be sold.

Hibs do not have the luxury to wait!

[Tricla]

I've supported Hibs for well over 50 years. In that time I've seen us relegated twice ( & bounce straight back ), seen us win 3 League Cups, lose 4 Scottish Cup finals, beat Hearts 7-0 at PBS & go 22 games without winning against Hearts.
In 1960/61 season we lost our first 8 league games of the season. We finally beat St Mirren at ER 4-3, after being 3-0 down, on 29 October 1960. Exactly 2 months later we scored 4 goals away against Barcelona, then the best team in the world as they had just knocked Real Madrid out of the European Cup, Real's first ever loss.
Now I'm not saying that makes the current situation more palatable but our history over the last 50 years is volatile & chequered at best. We all want to see Hibs playing the way Turnbull's Tornadoes did, or under Mowbray, or, dare I say it, the way we did at Hampden under JC only 3 short years ago. However we've also endured years of dross under managers such as Walter Galbraith, Dave Ewing & Blobby.
Hibs heroes & legends such as Stanton, Blackley, Sauzee, Mixu & Collins have all benn perceived to have failed in the managerial hot seat. When they were appointed there was general approval, even delight from the support. I'm not an apologist for Yogi & it may be he goes sooner rather than later but we should not necessarily expect a new manager to be a miracle worker.
Sorry to be so lengthy but IMO if you're a Hibs fan you're in it for the long run & we're going to have our fair share of disappointments along the way, it comes with the territory. Everyone has the right to criticise the team and/or manager but there's a sense of hysteria about right now which I find disturbing.
To sum it up, we've been in much worse places before, we'll be in a better place again. Keep the faith, support the team!

Best thing said on here in a long, long time. Many of us could and should take heed and try doing the bit in bold rather than greeting all the time.

GGTTH!

[HFC 0-7]

Love your post, in a platonic way of course.

I'm not sure that Yogi is the man for the job but I do wonder if there is anyone out there who could have done better. Anyone out there who COULD do better.

I said in another thread that I think that Hibs have had enough time to rebuild the club from an infrastructure perspective and now it's time to start investing in the team. Until we get to such a stage I don't think that any manager is going to be able to settle and do things they way he truly wants to. That goes for any manager, not just Yogi.

Not sure I see it like that. Hibs probably pay the 4th largest amount in terms of wages, they probably pay the 3rd largest in terms of transfers. If thats the case why are we so far off the pace, surely its down to bad management. The players we have are under acheiving, there is no doubt about that, the problem is that the team doesnt look like a team and the managers tactics have been questionable.

When you go through our team you can pretty much pick a team of individuals which could beat any other team in the SPL bar the old firm, so why is that when we look at them all together we see them as a bad side? Its down to the how the players work as a team! Who's job is it to manage that? Yogi's!

If you had a list of every SPl team and the money they spend on wages and transfers you would assume that we would be 3rd or 4th best off. Bottom line is, how is that money spent and how are these employees managed? If the manager is crap you could throw millions at the team, but they could still end up playing bad because they arent managed properly. IMO a new, experienced manager, could easily steady the ship. I am not talking about this new manager coming in and winning us 3rd, but a new manager could easily stabilise us and then start adding.

[thebakerboy]

I posted earlier about the Portsmouth Leicester game and the managers ( particularily the Pompey guy) saying what Yogi has been saying (they are bottom of the Championship) and now the breaks have gone their way , early goal , slightly dodgy pen , dodgy red card and they are 4 0 up , so HOPE SPREADS ETERNALLY we could just win tomorrow. I am a HIBBY substitute eternal optimist.:agree::agree::agree::greengrin:greengrin :greengrin

[clerriehibs]

I'm sure I remember Alex Miller having a few digs at the fans, when many were unhappy at the way we were playing. He certainly had a get it up ye speech ready when we won the League Cup in '91. That might not have been entirely aimed at the fans but it certainly was in part.

Part of the problem now is forums like this one where fans can go on and on, heaping one negative on another and where we mostly want instant results. I think supporting Hibs at the moment might be a bit easier if papers, TV and internet was avoided.


Not only is the internet a problem where supporting our own club is concerned ... I'd guess that very few of us have a relationship anymore with PBS supporters where we can have a decent fitba discussion and a reasonable bit of banter. It's all just poison now.

[clerriehibs]

Yogi lost 6 league games on the bounce last season and had some very embarrassing results in the cup and league and wasnt sacked. For all the bad points at the end of last season i think most gave him a chance to get some new signings and turn things around. We are now well underway in the new season and we are continuing the bad form even after Yogi has been busy in the transfer window. Something you have never seen is the home form which Yogi has managed to shatter the previous record.

Not just the results or the performances are what people are taking into account here, but what appears as a completely blinkered manager as he is refusing to acknowledge our performances as bad.

If you wait until December for a new manager and what budget is left will probably not be enough for a new manager to turn things around. Also if you leave it too long and we are at the bottom of the league why would we be appealing for a manager to come to?

I admire people for seeing the positives but some people search for them when they just arent there. We have just seen the latest financial results which basically showed, even with a good league placing we were struggling to break even. If we fail to get into the top six and get pumped out the scottish cup early it will mean falling attendances, reduced season ticket renewals which ultimately results in a lower budget and any good players we still have will be sold.

Hibs do not have the luxury to wait!

Man U had the luxury to wait when Alex F joined ... why are we different?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Man U had the luxury to wait when Alex F joined ... why are we different?

Because Yogi hasn't won the Cup Winners Cup, and dominated the league he came from? Fergie had shown his mettle, and had something to back his promises up with when their board asked.

That said, even he was one game away from the sack.

[HFC 0-7]

Man U had the luxury to wait when Alex F joined ... why are we different?

Because Hibs cant afford a decline in season ticket sales for next season, reduced walk ups this season and another early exit from a cup. Man U probably could afford possible lost revenue due to ticket sale slumps etc, hibs cant.

[HibsMax]

Not sure I see it like that. Hibs probably pay the 4th largest amount in terms of wages, they probably pay the 3rd largest in terms of transfers. If thats the case why are we so far off the pace, surely its down to bad management. The players we have are under acheiving, there is no doubt about that, the problem is that the team doesnt look like a team and the managers tactics have been questionable.

When you go through our team you can pretty much pick a team of individuals which could beat any other team in the SPL bar the old firm, so why is that when we look at them all together we see them as a bad side? Its down to the how the players work as a team! Who's job is it to manage that? Yogi's!

If you had a list of every SPl team and the money they spend on wages and transfers you would assume that we would be 3rd or 4th best off. Bottom line is, how is that money spent and how are these employees managed? If the manager is crap you could throw millions at the team, but they could still end up playing bad because they arent managed properly. IMO a new, experienced manager, could easily steady the ship. I am not talking about this new manager coming in and winning us 3rd, but a new manager could easily stabilise us and then start adding.
In my opinion you can't even bring finances into the debate, well, you can't base an argument on that because having more money to spend does not translate into good performances and results. I have had my eyes opened to this more since coming over to the US. My example is the Yankees.

I don't know why Hibs are underachieving to be honest with you. If the players have the talent then I would think they would get good results in spite of the management team. They are the guys that have to execute. There is only so much that the manager can do and as soon as the players run onto the field, it's almost entirely up to them (I appreciate the manager make subs, etc. but he can't run onto the pitch and stick the ball into an empty net).

I'm not so keen to jump on the "new manager" bandwagon because we've seen this happen again and again. How many managers are Hibs going to appoint before they get it right?

I'm not arguing with you. We can all agree that there is something fundamentally wrong at Hibs and this has spanned players and managers alike. I wish I knew what the fix is.

[JohnScott]

Love the comparison to Fergie :no way: Lets just say your right and John Hughes proves he's worthy of being placed in the same bracket. How long will he be at Hibs? You can rest assured it won't be 4 years if a big English club come calling. We're going to lose whatever the future brings. A club like us need to look at a manager that's seen it all and done it all. Craig Brown might go on and win a cup for Well but I can't see the teams in the Premiership offering him a job any time soon. Someone like him at the helm, then we can talk about stability. I've no ill will towards Yogi and I sincerely wish him well but you'd be an idiot to expect him to be at Hibs in 4 years time if he turns things around.

[HFC 0-7]

In my opinion you can't even bring finances into the debate, well, you can't base an argument on that because having more money to spend does not translate into good performances and results. I have had my eyes opened to this more since coming over to the US. My example is the Yankees.

I don't know why Hibs are underachieving to be honest with you. If the players have the talent then I would think they would get good results in spite of the management team. They are the guys that have to execute. There is only so much that the manager can do and as soon as the players run onto the field, it's almost entirely up to them (I appreciate the manager make subs, etc. but he can't run onto the pitch and stick the ball into an empty net).

I'm not so keen to jump on the "new manager" bandwagon because we've seen this happen again and again. How many managers are Hibs going to appoint before they get it right?

I'm not arguing with you. We can all agree that there is something fundamentally wrong at Hibs and this has spanned players and managers alike. I wish I knew what the fix is.

Exactly my point! Finances are irrelavant if the manager cant use them or can bring in good players with the money but not manage them when they are here. My point is that we have the best resources outside the old firm with the exception of wages because of hearts. That means that hibs should have the funds and training facilities to get better players that most of the SPL. The problem is that the manager isnt getting the best players or is but not managing them well.

[sh00byd00]

i love how people use Alex Ferguson and Man U as an example when telling us all we should give a manager time. Ferguson's situation is rare in football and a helleva lot more managers have been given time and failed. The likes of Liverpool tend to stick by their managers through think and thin, but that's only because they tend to win a trophy here n there.

Yogi was given a hefty budget by SPL standards (more than Walter smith) and still failed miserably last season. Yeah we got into Europe for the first time in years, but that was more down to the inept performances of the clubs around us than Yogi's ability to manage the players at his disposal.

[matty_f]

i love how people use Alex Ferguson and Man U as an example when telling us all we should give a manager time. Ferguson's situation is rare in football and a helleva lot more managers have been given time and failed. The likes of Liverpool tend to stick by their managers through think and thin, but that's only because they tend to win a trophy here n there.

Yogi was given a hefty budget by SPL standards (more than Walter smith) and still failed miserably last season. Yeah we got into Europe for the first time in years, but that was more down to the inept performances of the clubs around us than Yogi's ability to manage the players at his disposal.

Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense!

How much did Smith's Rangers side cost to assemble, compared to ours. What are the respective wage bills?

[sh00byd00]

I wasn't implying we should have out performed Rangers last year, i just said we had a lot more funds at our disposal to strengthen our team than rangers did. What's nonsense about that? It's a fact.

With that in mind, you'd think we'd have at least finished the best of the rest or a least finished a lit bit closer to the OF than we did.

This isn't the EPL we're talking about here, it's a 3rd rate backwater league we're competing in.

European competition have proven the OF have dramatically weakened, yet even when we spend big we're no closer to competing with Dubdee Utd never-mind closing the gap between ourselves and the OF.

[bawheid]

I wasn't implying we should have out performed Rangers last year, i just said we had a lot more funds at our disposal to strengthen our team than rangers did. What's nonsense about that? It's a fact.


It's not a fact though. As Matty says, it's nonsense.

Take a look at Rangers' wage bill and then compare it to Hibs'.

[matty_f]

I wasn't implying we should have out performed Rangers last year, i just said we had a lot more funds at our disposal to strengthen our team than rangers did. What's nonsense about that? It's a fact.

With that in mind, you'd think we'd have at least finished the best of the rest or a least finished a lit bit closer to the OF than we did.

This isn't the EPL we're talking about here, it's a 3rd rate backwater league we're competing in.

European competition have proven the OF have dramatically weakened, yet even when we spend big we're no closer to competing with Dubdee Utd never-mind closing the gap between ourselves and the OF.

We didn't have more though:confused:

Happy to be proved wrong on it, but what were the relative spends of Hibs and Rangers? Also, Smith had some time to build that squad at a massively higher expenditure than Yogi was afforded, so even if in Yogi's first summer he was able to sign more players, he still had a much, much lower spend than Smith in terms of what it cost to put the team together.

[IWasThere2016]

Compare Hibs wage to half a doz., or so teams above us ... It's likely to be more than half a doz., in a month's time also :bitchy:

[sh00byd00]

It's not a fact though. As Matty says, it's nonsense.

Take a look at Rangers' wage bill and then compare it to Hibs'.

I wasn't on about wage bills, i was on about transfer funds :confused: Implying the obvious that only Celtic spent more than us on transfers/bought in more players.

What's also confusing is i didn't once say Hibs should have been challenging Rangers.

[sh00byd00]

We didn't have more though:confused:

Happy to be proved wrong on it, but what were the relative spends of Hibs and Rangers? Also, Smith had some time to build that squad at a massively higher expenditure than Yogi was afforded, so even if in Yogi's first summer he was able to sign more players, he still had a much, much lower spend than Smith in terms of what it cost to put the team together.

Likewise. Prove me wrong that Rangers added more players to their squad than we did? As far as I'm aware, this season is the first time in 2 years they have added to their squad.

[bawheid]

Compare Hibs wage to half a doz., or so teams above us ... It's likely to be more than half a doz., in a month's time also :bitchy:

We'll see. If Hibs finish bottom six and behind all of the teams with smaller wage bills then yeah, have a right good go. :wink:


I wasn't on about wage bills, i was on about transfer funds :confused: Implying the obvious that only Celtic spent more than us on transfers/bought in more players.

What's also confusing is i didn't once say Hibs should have been challenging Rangers.

If you think Rangers couldn't have afforded any of the players Hibs bought then you're in cuckoo land. They have a squad of players that Hibs could only dream of.

[IWasThere2016]

So wages are irrelevant - what are the benchmarks? Form? The League Table? We're seriously lacking with those - are we not?

[bawheid]

So wages are irrelevant - what are the benchmarks? Form? The League Table? We're seriously lacking with those - are we not?

Who's saying they're irrelevant?

If Hibs have the fourth biggest wage bill, theoretically they should finish fourth. Sport isn't theoretical though.

If we consistently lose games and end up at the lower end of the table, Hughes will pay with his job.

I just happen to believe a few games into the season is not long enough to make that judgement.

[sh00byd00]

i think you're reading more into it than there is.

1) I wasn't comparing squads
2) I didn't once mention wage budgets.

Ok Rangers aside, last season's out lay should have meant we were at least competing with Dundee Utd, which looking at the table we were no where near them come May. In fact the 9 point gap makes it look closer than it actually was because the team fell apart long before Dundee Utd pulled away from us.

[matty_f]

I wasn't on about wage bills, i was on about transfer funds :confused: Implying the obvious that only Celtic spent more than us on transfers/bought in more players.

What's also confusing is i didn't once say Hibs should have been challenging Rangers.

I never said anything about challenging Rangers either:confused:

Yogi said he never spent anything on transfer fees, IIRC. In that summer, Rangers brought in one player on loan from (I think) PSG.

Given the comparative wages of Hibs, Rangers, and PSG there is a very high likelihood that Rangers spent at least as much on that one deal, as we did on ours.

[bawheid]

i think you're reading more into it than there is.

1) I wasn't comparing squads
2) I didn't once mention wage budgets.

Ok Rangers aside, last season's out lay should have meant we were at least competing with Dundee Utd, which looking at the table we were no where near them come May. In fact the 9 point gap makes it look closer than it actually was because the team fell apart long before Dundee Utd pulled away from us.

Possibly, and I know what you mean.

I just think that football is not black and white when it comes to spending money and building a successful squad. Celtic spent more money on transfer fees and wages last year yet still lost the league.

[matty_f]

i think you're reading more into it than there is.

1) I wasn't comparing squads
2) I didn't once mention wage budgets.

Ok Rangers aside, last season's out lay should have meant we were at least competing with Dundee Utd, which looking at the table we were no where near them come May. In fact the 9 point gap makes it look closer than it actually was because the team fell apart long before Dundee Utd pulled away from us.

I wasn't arguing your point, btw - just your statement that Yogi had a bigger budget (note - not specifying either wages or transfer fees :wink:) than Walter Smith.

Aside from that point, I agree with you.

[IWasThere2016]

So Bawheid a 'few games' is that the wins from the last 27 games?

Yogi 'will pay with his job' and sadly the sooner the better IMHO.

Our form is rank - and our league position IMHO is unacceptable. I'd like to think it'll improve in a month's time but I very much doubt it will.

[bawheid]

So Bawheid a 'few games' is that the wins from the last 27 games?

Yogi 'will pay with his job' and sadly the sooner the better IMHO.

Our form is rank - and our league position IMHO is unacceptable. I'd like to think it'll improve in a month's time but I very much doubt it will.

Last time I checked, football is played in seasons.

Last season we finished 4th, this season we've not started well.

If we continue to underperform the manager will go. It won't be soon though, since this season has only just begun.

Time will tell.

[IWasThere2016]

Glad you're not unhappy with things B.

Our form - and falling attendances/income - will rightly be the cause for change at ER IMHO.

And change for the better IMHO as Yogi aint going to turn it around.

Fewer points than games, a few selective 45 mins of decent performances, a lack of entertainment, falling attendances and a record breaking low for home form is totally unacceptable regardless of anything you and I have to say about it.

[discman]

i love how people use Alex Ferguson and Man U as an example when telling us all we should give a manager time. Ferguson's situation is rare in football and a helleva lot more managers have been given time and failed. The likes of Liverpool tend to stick by their managers through think and thin, but that's only because they tend to win a trophy here n there.

Yogi was given a hefty budget by SPL standards (more than Walter smith) and still failed miserably last season. Yeah we got into Europe for the first time in years, but that was more down to the inept performances of the clubs around us than Yogi's ability to manage the players at his disposal.



Just thought i'd clarify, yogi doesnt have a budget,yogi doesnt sign players,RP does all negotiations,all contracts infact anything todo with fianance is down to RP.
And when people talk of "the board" that is another myth,its RP, he owns 10% of the club and has final say over everything!

Personally; thought it was clever of yogi to exploit other teams ineptness,thought thats what he was paid to do :cool2:

[BEEJ]

Just thought i'd clarify, yogi doesnt have a budget,yogi doesnt sign players,RP does all negotiations,all contracts infact anything todo with fianance is down to RP.

The official line is that Yogi identifies the players he wants to sign. Hopefully he does so having first got outline fee and salary expectations in order to confirm that the player is within reach of his budget.

Having identified his targets to RP, RP then goes off to negotiate the financial terms and other contractual matters with a view to bringing them in. That is far from unusual as arrangements go at football clubs and, frankly, I'd much prefer that Yogi stays out of contract discussions for new players and focused instead on the job he's been brought in to do.

Provided this is in fact what happens and the players at the club (besides the promoted youths) have each been identified as a signing target by the manager in post at the time, I don't see that we have any real problems on this score.

If, however, what actually happens is quite different from this then we could well have serious issues to be resolved.

[Ferryhibby]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm certainly not looking at the current situation with rose tinted specs, nor am I saying our current form is acceptable. I am saying, as the thread is titled, to try & keep a sense of perspective. We've been in much worse situations before & quickly turned it around. The 8 consecutive league defeats in 1960 followed by us scoring 4 goals in Barcelona 2 months later is classic Hibs, & we didn't change managers after the 8 defeats. :wink:
Again, I'm not a huge Yogi fan but I'm not necessarily convinced a new manager would dramatically change things for the better. For every person who wanted Collins or Mixu out there's another one who would now take them back!
I suggest we back the team fully at least through to December. If we've improved great, if not Yogi falls on his sword & a new guy has 4 to 6 months to sort out league position & win the cup! For now though I feel the constant negativity is damaging the team & encouragement from the stands could help turn our season around.

Heartily agree with all youve wrote cant remember anyone being supportive of any manager we've had. Seems over the past couple of decades its been the done thing to sack the manager, I also remember the Turnbull era and watched them getting beat regularly one that sticks out is Arbroath in the cup, Ive seen much worse hibs sides than this one but still went and supported them. Cant help thinking how the players must be feeling hearing us boo all the time, if theyr low on confidence that wont help and they probably dread coming out and playing knowing that the first misplaced pass will get us on their backs. Look forward to the season turning round tho:thumbsup:

[discman]

The official line is that Yogi identifies the players he wants to sign. Hopefully he does so having first got outline fee and salary expectations in order to confirm that the player is within reach of his budget.

Having identified his targets to RP, RP then goes off to negotiate the financial terms and other contractual matters with a view to bringing them in. That is far from unusual as arrangements go at football clubs and, frankly, I'd much prefer that Yogi stays out of contract discussions for new players and focused instead on the job he's been brought in to do.

Provided this is in fact what happens and the players at the club (besides the promoted youths) have each been identified as a signing target by the manager in post at the time, I don't see that we have any real problems on this score.

If, however, what actually happens is quite different from this then we could well have serious issues to be resolved.

Partly correct, the problem is RP asseses (sp) players on their commercial value,their worth as an asset etc, yogi or mixu or jc asseses them from a purely football perspective,hence the falling out mixu and jc

I am not against the model you suggest however,because of the financial perspective and an unwillingness to entertain sustainable debt,the quality of the players brought to ER arent as high as we'd all like, including the manager :cool2:

[erskine-hibby]

Man U had the luxury to wait when Alex F joined ... why are we different?

We have nowhere near the fan base or financial muscle that Man U had.
A pretty bad comparison if you ask me.

[Ray_]

Last time I checked, football is played in seasons.

Last season we finished 4th, this season we've not started well.

If we continue to underperform the manager will go. It won't be soon though, since this season has only just begun.

Time will tell.

Well how do you explain example of managers being emptied early in to the season, when the new season started in the same vein as the previous season?

Also our ticket sales for this season, was very much influenced by our form of last season & do you really think that people who have started not going to ER this season, are making that decision based solely on our form since July?

[Ray_]

Heartily agree with all youve wrote cant remember anyone being supportive of any manager we've had. Seems over the past couple of decades its been the done thing to sack the manager, I also remember the Turnbull era and watched them getting beat regularly one that sticks out is Arbroath in the cup, Ive seen much worse hibs sides than this one but still went and supported them. Cant help thinking how the players must be feeling hearing us boo all the time, if theyr low on confidence that wont help and they probably dread coming out and playing knowing that the first misplaced pass will get us on their backs. Look forward to the season turning round tho:thumbsup:


Can't remember too many people calling for the head of McLeish or Mowbray, most likely because they produced the best teams since Turnbull's early seventies side.

[Ferryhibby]

Can't remember too many people calling for the head of McLeish or Mowbray, most likely because they produced the best teams since Turnbull's early seventies side.

maybe didnt call for their heads but certainly remember some noises being made about both, things were going bad under Mcleish and he got out just before, even towards the end of Mowbrays reign there was still some discontent about some of the games he had. Point i was trying to put was that doesnt matter which person is managing the team they wont be fully supported, there will always be someone unhappy. I remember Mcleish's team only won the crappest first div by a canter by buying all and sundry, and Mowbray was lucky to have the best crop of youngsters we have produced in many years and mould them into his way of thinking but we still got beat by teams who shouldnt have

[The_Todd]

So Hibs fans, supporters of the 3rd biggest club in Scotland. A club with the 3rd/4th biggest fanbase in Scotland, best stadium, finances and training facilities outside Glasgow, club with the 4th biggest wage bill etc etc etc should accept getting pumped from St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Hamilton cos its happened before. Should accept something like 4 wins in 22 as we have been in worse positions?

Are we really the 3rd biggest team in Scotland? 3rd biggest fanbase? I think Aberdeen might contest that, as would Hertz.

Things are going badly right now but making up such stats won't change anything. We are like all non-OF teams: mediocre.