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Speedway
20-09-2010, 06:46 AM
The 'Matchday Experience' on Saturday was an interesting insight into the workings at Hibs.

At roughly 2.27pm, Lee Currie, Steve Thicot and Lewis Stevenson were in the club shop posing for photos and signing autographs. Nice touch for the kids I thought and then I thought what it must be like to endlessly smile into the camera on matchday when you're not injured but haven't been picked.

Elsewhere, Scott Lindsay was stood laughing with his mate just inside the entrance to the shop, which was packed. Didn't understand the point of that. He's not very approachable in those circumstances, because you can't ask the searching questions and at that time on a Saturday, has he not got anything else to do, such as wooing a corporate client into giving the club some money?

Then on the park...

Mark Brown, clearly a solid keeper and does talk to his defence but not in the way that Stack would commentate on where he wants everything and everyone to be.

Michael Hart, clearly a solid RB but shouted at by the bench frequently whilst the ball is in his area of responsibility. Why?

Sol Bamba, a CH who always wants the ball. We should be grateful. Also a CH who attacks, we should recognise that. Also a CH who lost the ball almost everytime he tried to play it forward, we might have a clue why no-one bought him with that.

Francis Dickoh, I felt he was a lot more solid than it seemed everyone else thought. His passing and comfort on the ball were questioned. I would suggest that this is because when Dickoh got the ball, he was given it under pressure and he had two options. Bamba, which would be playing it back where it came from or Brown, who was required to play sweeper on Saturday. Dickoh was comfy, his options weren't. Why Hart chose to stand behind his marker when we attacked, I'm not sure.

Johnathan Grounds, a young lad and one that in my humble, FA Coaching qualified opinion, does not know how to play the left back position, so we'll leave it there.

Ed De Graff A very clever player. He knows where the ball is going before he receives it. The problem is that his team mates are too asleep to be ready for it. Miller being the worst culprit and on his heels three times when De Graff played a quick pass into him, making the pass look poor. We want quick passing, we need players who can read a game and know where to be. De Graaf has this, but runs funny and looks knackered all the time so the fans pick him out.

Liam Miller A skillfull small midfielder with the battling qualities of an amputee. Our second biggest villian on Saturday.

Kevin McBride Plenty of fight, no out ball and the need to stand a yard away from Miller at all times, which I don't quite understand.

Wotherspoon/Galbraith Actually appreciated Yogi hooking him quickly when he wasn't performing. Now I hear he's injured which is a shame because his poor performance would have been left alone otherwise. Danny's first touch was to beat two men and whip in a cracking cross. After that we chose not to play the ball to him unless it was in the air with his back to goal. Why?

Riordan Our last hope, our last fighter, far from perfect but a joy to watch.

Nish/Trackys On brief viewing of the sub and extended viewing of the starter, we have the same player from a different country, which is a shame.

The Manager He clearly has a plan, I can see it. I know what he's trying to do and I like his plan. He screams his plan throughout the match. The players just ignore him or argue. This is a concern. They're not doing what he's asking them to do. Mixu's NOTW interview today gives further insight on this.

So, no fight, no creativity, no idea, no pace.

That's a concern.

What do you do with a problem like Hibernian?

Hibs Class
20-09-2010, 06:50 AM
Cannot argue with any of that.

rainman
20-09-2010, 07:18 AM
You got a link to Mixu's NOTW interview?

bawheid
20-09-2010, 07:21 AM
The Manager He clearly has a plan, I can see it. I know what he's trying to do and I like his plan. He screams his plan throughout the match. The players just ignore him or argue. This is a concern. They're not doing what he's asking them to do. Mixu's NOTW interview today gives further insight on this.

So, no fight, no creativity, no idea, no pace.

That's a concern.

What do you do with a problem like Hibernian?

Good post Speedway.

What do you do? You give the manager the time to empty those who won't/can't stick to his plan.

I know we'll get the "he's had three transfer windows" response, but maybe it just takes longer than that.

Beefster
20-09-2010, 07:57 AM
Good post, bawheid. I agree with you about De Graaf too. Far better than he's getting credit for.

Beefster
20-09-2010, 07:59 AM
Oops. OP was Speedway so 'Good post, Speedway'!

Speedway
20-09-2010, 08:00 AM
You got a link to Mixu's NOTW interview?

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_sport/979779/I-disliked-this-label-as-a-player-and-hate-it-as-a-gaffer-says-the-Killie-boss.html

There you go.

I've also contradicted myself in the opening post. I've said that McBride has plenty of fight but then called Deek our last fighter.

What I mean is that McBride has passion, Deek knows what it is to be a Hibby and plays like it. There's a difference.

When we play like the away team at home to the league's bottom club, I'm not convinced that the manager is the main culprit.

Speedway
20-09-2010, 08:03 AM
Good post, bawheid. I agree with you about De Graaf too. Far better than he's getting credit for.

Beefster, it reminds me of Ian Wright when he signed for Burnley. He'd make runs and create space for himself only to see the ball played where he'd just come from.

This made Burnley fans angry that he was running away from the ball when in fact he was actually thinking about two moves ahead of his teamates and as such, didn't last long in that side.

bighairyfaeleith
20-09-2010, 08:20 AM
The 'Matchday Experience' on Saturday was an interesting insight into the workings at Hibs.

At roughly 2.27pm, Lee Currie, Steve Thicot and Lewis Stevenson were in the club shop posing for photos and signing autographs. Nice touch for the kids I thought and then I thought what it must be like to endlessly smile into the camera on matchday when you're not injured but haven't been picked.

Elsewhere, Scott Lindsay was stood laughing with his mate just inside the entrance to the shop, which was packed. Didn't understand the point of that. He's not very approachable in those circumstances, because you can't ask the searching questions and at that time on a Saturday, has he not got anything else to do, such as wooing a corporate client into giving the club some money?

Then on the park...

Mark Brown, clearly a solid keeper and does talk to his defence but not in the way that Stack would commentate on where he wants everything and everyone to be.

Michael Hart, clearly a solid RB but shouted at by the bench frequently whilst the ball is in his area of responsibility. Why?

Sol Bamba, a CH who always wants the ball. We should be grateful. Also a CH who attacks, we should recognise that. Also a CH who lost the ball almost everytime he tried to play it forward, we might have a clue why no-one bought him with that.

Francis Dickoh, I felt he was a lot more solid than it seemed everyone else thought. His passing and comfort on the ball were questioned. I would suggest that this is because when Dickoh got the ball, he was given it under pressure and he had two options. Bamba, which would be playing it back where it came from or Brown, who was required to play sweeper on Saturday. Dickoh was comfy, his options weren't. Why Hart chose to stand behind his marker when we attacked, I'm not sure.

Johnathan Grounds, a young lad and one that in my humble, FA Coaching qualified opinion, does not know how to play the left back position, so we'll leave it there.

Ed De Graff A very clever player. He knows where the ball is going before he receives it. The problem is that his team mates are too asleep to be ready for it. Miller being the worst culprit and on his heels three times when De Graff played a quick pass into him, making the pass look poor. We want quick passing, we need players who can read a game and know where to be. De Graaf has this, but runs funny and looks knackered all the time so the fans pick him out.

Liam Miller A skillfull small midfielder with the battling qualities of an amputee. Our second biggest villian on Saturday.

Kevin McBride Plenty of fight, no out ball and the need to stand a yard away from Miller at all times, which I don't quite understand.

Wotherspoon/Galbraith Actually appreciated Yogi hooking him quickly when he wasn't performing. Now I hear he's injured which is a shame because his poor performance would have been left alone otherwise. Danny's first touch was to beat two men and whip in a cracking cross. After that we chose not to play the ball to him unless it was in the air with his back to goal. Why?

Riordan Our last hope, our last fighter, far from perfect but a joy to watch.

Nish/Trackys On brief viewing of the sub and extended viewing of the starter, we have the same player from a different country, which is a shame.

The Manager He clearly has a plan, I can see it. I know what he's trying to do and I like his plan. He screams his plan throughout the match. The players just ignore him or argue. This is a concern. They're not doing what he's asking them to do. Mixu's NOTW interview today gives further insight on this.

So, no fight, no creativity, no idea, no pace.

That's a concern.

What do you do with a problem like Hibernian?

I agree with most of that except I'm no longer sure that the manager is capable of getting his vision over to he players. I think we look too slow, frankly unfit, and to play the fast passing style yogi wants we have to be much sharper. We had it under collins, but then the players were scarily fit back then.

Your right though, what do you do with a problem like hibernian, I fully expect to be asking that question in thirty years time as well though:wink:

TornadoHibby
20-09-2010, 08:27 AM
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_sport/979779/I-disliked-this-label-as-a-player-and-hate-it-as-a-gaffer-says-the-Killie-boss.html

There you go.

I've also contradicted myself in the opening post. I've said that McBride has plenty of fight but then called Deek our last fighter.

What I mean is that McBride has passion, Deek knows what it is to be a Hibby and plays like it. There's a difference.

When we play like the away team at home to the league's bottom club, I'm not convinced that the manager is the main culprit.

Who is then Speedway? :cool2: :confused:

RIP
20-09-2010, 08:29 AM
Since Mowbray I've been convinced the problems have run much deeper than this years manager

We simply are not run like my idea of a football club

Danderhall Hibs
20-09-2010, 08:31 AM
Who is then Speedway? :cool2: :confused:

I think he's saying the players play a part in this?

sahib
20-09-2010, 08:35 AM
Since Mowbray I've been convinced the problems have run much deeper than this years manager

We simply are not run like my idea of a football club

Care to elaborate? Too many vague accusations abound on this board imho.

TornadoHibby
20-09-2010, 08:50 AM
I think he's saying the players play a part in this?

I assumed that he was alluding to "the players" as it would be unlikely, I would have thought, that the Board would seek to undermine the manager as his success would surely bring corresponding success for the Board! :agree:

However, I would seriously doubt that all of the players will be involved if, indeed, this is actually the case, and I wondered if Speedway, or anyone else with actual knowledge of such a situation, might like to share his thoughts/information with the rest of us rather than through an unsubstantiated "maybees aye" thought put out for Hibs.net to contruct it's next "theory" about the team's woeful performances for many months now (with the very odd exception now and then) with! :cool2: :confused:

Speedway
20-09-2010, 09:06 AM
Who is then Speedway? :cool2: :confused:

It's been years since I've seen a side come to ER (Maribor excepted) and driven away from the ground thinking, we were no match for them. Every SPL side I see including the Yams and the OF look beatable with what we've got, to me.

I remember a game against ICT under Mixu, where Bamba was coming forward with the ball from Midfield and everyone in a Hibs jersey was stood with their back to goal watching him (except the fans). He got to the edge of the centre circle in ICT's half and stopped with his hands up as if to say 'anyone want this?'

The fans booed, Mixu needed to GTF etc.

On Saturday both Dickoh and McBride did the exact same thing and I immediately recalled the ICT game. It was like we were playing Hibs netball, no-one can move if you're NOT in possession of the ball.

Dickoh and Mcbride weren't at the club in the ICT game I'm referring to, neither was the manager. Indeed, the manager famously out thought Mowbray at ER from 2-0 down five years ago to win 2-3. When the last time Hibs did that?

Mowbray had the better side.

I'm not saying that the manager is blameless, far from it. I'm saying he's not the main culprit.

Hughes has been reduced to looking at and signing trialists just like Mixu was and was saying earlier on this year how many 'doors had been slammed' in the pursuit for new faces.

Mixu has said how he couldn't play the football expected of him at Hibs with the personnel he was allowed to sign. Collins walked when we wouldn't sanction cash for Hammil. etc etc.

Scott Lindsay was stood having a laugh with his mate in the club shop at 2.30pm. If I was a Chief Exec that had just posted a £2.2m operating loss for the company I'm in charge of, I wouldn't be laughing.

The board are fantastic at finding cash, they're not impressive at allocating it well on the park.

I'm starting to feel that despite what the board publish as their intention, every commercial venture seems important to Hibs except the footie, because that means spending a lot of money for no guaranteed return. Infrastructure delivers forecastable return.

If we could just lose the football team, we'd be a nice profitable business.

I think our vision as a club, needs re-adjusting. Maybe now that we've built the East it will, but this is not the manager's fault. Yogi will be a successful manager elsewhere.

Player acquisition policy (we're looking for the 'right type of player' according to every manager since Mowbray) willingness to deal with certain agents, making sure we have the personnel that people will want to watch etc etc etc. All need looking at in my opinion and that's not down entirely down to the team manager, whoever it is at the time.

Arch Stanton
20-09-2010, 09:07 AM
If Hughes really has a plan then he would surely get the fans on his side if he were to articulate it instead of his usual "vision for being in Europe" and "we've got goals in the team". It shouldn't be a secret, should it?

I sit opposite Hughes and I have been noticing when he gets out his seat and he does not look like he is communicating well at all - just vague arm waving - no emphasing any point at all from what I could see.

Last week, for instance, he made a signal to Wotherspoon which could either have been 'play more centrally' or 'swap wings'. Wotherspoon tried to query what was required but Hughes just stood there for a bit before going back to his seat.

Wotherspoon played a bit more centrally for a bit before realising it didn't make any sense so after a few minutes he went back to where he was.

For me it all starts and ends with the manager - whatever other problems are bubbling under it is the manager's job to deal with.

haagsehibby
20-09-2010, 09:08 AM
The Manager He clearly has a plan, I can see it. I know what he's trying to do and I like his plan. He screams his plan throughout the match.
What do you do with a problem like Hibernian?

Care to enlighten us with what this "plan" is from your FA coaching viewpoint. Not a dig - I'm genuinely curious.

el capitano
20-09-2010, 09:15 AM
speedway, very good points made and i agree 99%, i can see how different we would be feeling about hibs just now had picked up 6pts in the last 2 games (and before anyone starts , we are the unluckiest team i can remember when it comes to winning thru luck) because imo we have been very very unlucky.

hibeemad
20-09-2010, 09:25 AM
The 'Matchday Experience' on Saturday was an interesting insight into the workings at Hibs.

At roughly 2.27pm, Lee Currie, Steve Thicot and Lewis Stevenson were in the club shop posing for photos and signing autographs. Nice touch for the kids I thought and then I thought what it must be like to endlessly smile into the camera on matchday when you're not injured but haven't been picked.

Elsewhere, Scott Lindsay was stood laughing with his mate just inside the entrance to the shop, which was packed. Didn't understand the point of that. He's not very approachable in those circumstances, because you can't ask the searching questions and at that time on a Saturday, has he not got anything else to do, such as wooing a corporate client into giving the club some money?

Then on the park...

Mark Brown, clearly a solid keeper and does talk to his defence but not in the way that Stack would commentate on where he wants everything and everyone to be.

Michael Hart, clearly a solid RB but shouted at by the bench frequently whilst the ball is in his area of responsibility. Why?

Sol Bamba, a CH who always wants the ball. We should be grateful. Also a CH who attacks, we should recognise that. Also a CH who lost the ball almost everytime he tried to play it forward, we might have a clue why no-one bought him with that.

Francis Dickoh, I felt he was a lot more solid than it seemed everyone else thought. His passing and comfort on the ball were questioned. I would suggest that this is because when Dickoh got the ball, he was given it under pressure and he had two options. Bamba, which would be playing it back where it came from or Brown, who was required to play sweeper on Saturday. Dickoh was comfy, his options weren't. Why Hart chose to stand behind his marker when we attacked, I'm not sure.

Johnathan Grounds, a young lad and one that in my humble, FA Coaching qualified opinion, does not know how to play the left back position, so we'll leave it there.

Ed De Graff A very clever player. He knows where the ball is going before he receives it. The problem is that his team mates are too asleep to be ready for it. Miller being the worst culprit and on his heels three times when De Graff played a quick pass into him, making the pass look poor. We want quick passing, we need players who can read a game and know where to be. De Graaf has this, but runs funny and looks knackered all the time so the fans pick him out.

Liam Miller A skillfull small midfielder with the battling qualities of an amputee. Our second biggest villian on Saturday.

Kevin McBride Plenty of fight, no out ball and the need to stand a yard away from Miller at all times, which I don't quite understand.

Wotherspoon/Galbraith Actually appreciated Yogi hooking him quickly when he wasn't performing. Now I hear he's injured which is a shame because his poor performance would have been left alone otherwise. Danny's first touch was to beat two men and whip in a cracking cross. After that we chose not to play the ball to him unless it was in the air with his back to goal. Why?

Riordan Our last hope, our last fighter, far from perfect but a joy to watch.

Nish/Trackys On brief viewing of the sub and extended viewing of the starter, we have the same player from a different country, which is a shame.

The Manager He clearly has a plan, I can see it. I know what he's trying to do and I like his plan. He screams his plan throughout the match. The players just ignore him or argue. This is a concern. They're not doing what he's asking them to do. Mixu's NOTW interview today gives further insight on this.

So, no fight, no creativity, no idea, no pace.

That's a concern.

What do you do with a problem like Hibernian?

I agree with most of your post except the de graf bit and most of all the Nish part.

How can anyone tell after an 18 mins debut that he is as pish as nish

down the slope
20-09-2010, 09:34 AM
The problem with Hibernian fc is that the board could not pick a decent manager to save themselves and i include Mowbry in that lot, every recent manager has been a cheap option which seems to be Rod's way of operating ie we will find a nugget of gold amongst the dross way of thinking which has spectacularly backfired in our most recent history.
I would like to know how much we have spent when managers have been punted and the knock on effect of more players entering /leaving the ER merry go round. This cheapskate way of thinking has to stop now if and when Hughes walks, in any other business the wrong appointments on our scale would result in the chairman getting the bullet but there seems to be little criticism of him on here as he has delivered the new stands/training ground which we all admire but maybe he should stick with the bricks and mortar aspect as he seems to the square root of zero when it comes to football.

Mickey Edwards
20-09-2010, 09:45 AM
The personnel issue is simple ; it's fullbacks

Without two good footballers at full back {perhaps even your best players at the club at full back}, the passing game as a consistent stratgey for success is unfortunately a pipedream. Hart is a very good defender one-on-one but that is only part of what the team needs in this system. Without proper footballers at full back the pressure is too great on the front 4/5 to dazzle their way through "the parked bus".

Maybe when Booth returns and slots in at LB we may see a tidier more effective game that we can identify with.

....great OP

Speedway
20-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Care to enlighten us with what this "plan" is from your FA coaching viewpoint. Not a dig - I'm genuinely curious.

No offense taken and not claiming to be an expert, just have a wee bit of insight from a coaching perspective.

Here's what I think the crack is:

What Hughes Wants:
From what I can tell, when the goalie is in possession, he generally wants the goalie to play the ball out to Bamba/Dickoh and have both full backs start to push up as far at the centre line making themselves available for the ball and not too far forward if we lose possession.

He then wants the full bakcs to play the ball into Miller and make themselves available for the ball to go back out wide, whilst staying roughly in line with play whilst De Graff sits in line with Miller for the square ball or to make the late run.

If McBride is a better option for the CHs, he wants McBride to carry the ball and have Miller push forward looking to receive it and/or have two options on either flank, where he wants the ball played in front of them to bomb down the wings with. Then then wants Miller, De Graff to be available on the edge of the box in case Riordan/Nish can't escape their markers.

What Hughes Gets:
What's happening is that often the goalie is punting it if the CH's are under pressure, this comes straight back.

The FB's are sprinting up the park and disappearing behind the opposition full backs making it impossible to find them unless we want to play an offside through ball.

Therefore, we go through the middle where space is tight and no-one's moving which brings the rest of the midfield back inside our own half inviting the opposition to come and press us in that area of the park. Thus the FBs are missing in action and if we lose the ball, the opposition seem to like to play it out wide where a CH now has to go and cover leaving the central channel open.

So Hughes wants the game played in the 3rd quarter of the pitch and we're playing it in the 2nd quarter of the pitch. Hughes wants it wide, players are too thick/slow to play that way and we play through the middle. We don't have backs to goal players who can then bring the likes of De Graff and Miller into play, so we lose the ball that way.

This means that we have to battle for the ball in our own half to get it back and we don't have tacklers in the centre mid positions to do that well. It's left to the CH's to do which is why they then go back to the keeper so often to re-start a move.

Hughes appears to be screaming for the play to be moved up the park but the players simply don't do it or scream that they're too busy marking someone else's player as both Hart and McBride shouted back on Saturday.

That's just my view though.


I agree with most of your post except the de graf bit and most of all the Nish part.

How can anyone tell after an 18 mins debut that he is as pish as nish

Agreed, he may not be as pish as Nish but in the time he was on, he never jumped for a ball and was in an offside position on our attacks three times. It would have been more, but he was too slow to advance offside. So it looks similar to Nish on that basis.

basehibby
20-09-2010, 10:02 AM
Good post, bawheid. I agree with you about De Graaf too. Far better than he's getting credit for.

:agree: And the boo boys wonder why people call them idiots :rolleyes:

Green_one
20-09-2010, 10:12 AM
While Speedway gives us good insight into some technical areas I think he is missing some points with Hughes's 'plan'.

He is missing width and pace. He refuses to play Galbraith in a forward position and narrows the game. Overall it does not really matter what his plan is, he is simply not executing it. That can be said to be the players but really the buck stops with the manager. Can he not communicate his views? The vast majority of players are Hughes imports, so he cannot blame that area either. Fundementally it is his tactics, his players and his couching we are seeing. The few sucesses are non Hughes e.g. Riordan.

Is the Hughes plan too complex, vague or poor? I have no idea as he simply does not have any real structure executed. For the record I think there are broader things wrong with Hughes beyond some inability to get his plan working. What we are now seeing is a team with no confidence, easily pushed off tactics and not playing as an 11. Its not complex. Fixing it is.

Hibby Bairn
20-09-2010, 10:12 AM
Good analysis Speedway. But this should be very coachable to the players over a 10 week period since early July. In addition we should be able to introduce an insurance policy cover by kepping 3 at the back through either full back joining the 2 CH's and forming a back 3 (depending on which wing we are attacking) or if both FB's are attacking then McBride falls back between CH's.

That should make it easier to defend when we lose possession.

THE main problem however remains lack of movement and desire to form attacking moves. We very rarely form small groups of 3 or 4 close together to attack on either flank or through the middle. Making us reliant on 1v1 positions or invariably 1v2 which means we invariably lose possession....and often in the middle third.

End result is not enough chances created by us and too many changes of possession to opposition who then quickly expose our gaps (e.g. ICT goal, Hamilton goal, at least 2 Rangers goals).

Either Hughes isn't communicating or the players aren't listening.

sparkiehibs
20-09-2010, 10:16 AM
I felt the big man did well when he came on for Nish

He wanted the ball, was willing to go back to help out and tried to link up with Deek.

I would like to see him start on saturday

As for Hart, he is not making up for his lack of pace with experience in my opinion

And De Graff needs to get on the ball more and drive forward with ball


Brown

Stephens Dickoh Bamba Grounds

Spoony Miller McBride Galbraith

Trakys Deek

Iain G
20-09-2010, 10:19 AM
No offense taken and not claiming to be an expert, just have a wee bit of insight from a coaching perspective.

Here's what I think the crack is:

What Hughes Wants:
From what I can tell, when the goalie is in possession, he generally wants the goalie to play the ball out to Bamba/Dickoh and have both full backs start to push up as far at the centre line making themselves available for the ball and not too far forward if we lose possession.

He then wants the full bakcs to play the ball into Miller and make themselves available for the ball to go back out wide, whilst staying roughly in line with play whilst De Graff sits in line with Miller for the square ball or to make the late run.

If McBride is a better option for the CHs, he wants McBride to carry the ball and have Miller push forward looking to receive it and/or have two options on either flank, where he wants the ball played in front of them to bomb down the wings with. Then then wants Miller, De Graff to be available on the edge of the box in case Riordan/Nish can't escape their markers.

What Hughes Gets:
What's happening is that often the goalie is punting it if the CH's are under pressure, this comes straight back.

The FB's are sprinting up the park and disappearing behind the opposition full backs making it impossible to find them unless we want to play an offside through ball.

Therefore, we go through the middle where space is tight and no-one's moving which brings the rest of the midfield back inside our own half inviting the opposition to come and press us in that area of the park. Thus the FBs are missing in action and if we lose the ball, the opposition seem to like to play it out wide where a CH now has to go and cover leaving the central channel open.

So Hughes wants the game played in the 3rd quarter of the pitch and we're playing it in the 2nd quarter of the pitch. Hughes wants it wide, players are too thick/slow to play that way and we play through the middle. We don't have backs to goal players who can then bring the likes of De Graff and Miller into play, so we lose the ball that way.

This means that we have to battle for the ball in our own half to get it back and we don't have tacklers in the centre mid positions to do that well. It's left to the CH's to do which is why they then go back to the keeper so often to re-start a move.

Hughes appears to be screaming for the play to be moved up the park but the players simply don't do it or scream that they're too busy marking someone else's player as both Hart and McBride shouted back on Saturday.

That's just my view though.



Agreed, he may not be as pish as Nish but in the time he was on, he never jumped for a ball and was in an offside position on our attacks three times. It would have been more, but he was too slow to advance offside. So it looks similar to Nish on that basis.

Interesting observations speedway, obviously I can't see that kind of detail from this side of the world, but one big question, if you are correct, remains:

Are the players incapable of following what is being asked of them, are they unwilling to follow what is being asked of them, or is Yogi incapable of getting his message across to the players?

There is a failure somewhere in there, someone needs to work out how to get over it, or we will have a new manager come the turn of the year.

Personally, I refuse to believe that some of the decent professional players we have, such as Miller/Murray/Hart/Dickoh/Bambas of the squad wouldn't be able to understand the way you suggest Yogi wants the team to play :agree:

Speedway
20-09-2010, 10:39 AM
Interesting observations speedway, obviously I can't see that kind of detail from this side of the world, but one big question, if you are correct, remains:

Are the players incapable of following what is being asked of them, are they unwilling to follow what is being asked of them, or is Yogi incapable of getting his message across to the players?

There is a failure somewhere in there, someone needs to work out how to get over it, or we will have a new manager come the turn of the year.

Personally, I refuse to believe that some of the decent professional players we have, such as Miller/Murray/Hart/Dickoh/Bambas of the squad wouldn't be able to understand the way you suggest Yogi wants the team to play :agree:

This is linked to my point about our signing policy.

It's not about being able, it's about being ersed.

Our policy is not to pay Transfer fees, because it is dead money and we ain't got much money. Financially, that's sound policy.

However, that means that to meet the expectation of good football at Hibs, you're in the market for technically good players who don't cost money.

This leads us to players who, for whatever reason, are not wanted by their current club or free already.

Now, why are they in either category if they are technically gifted? Liam Miller wasn't wanted by QPR? Why not? Good player, no? Did they have better, similar, cheaper?

I believe that we're signing players who have ability and that appeases the support but are addicted CBeebies (Can't Be Bothereds)

Miller is a prime example. 29, Millionaire, wants a club where he'll be picked no matter what. Hibs is a great destination for him and occasionally he'll light up the place, but mostly he'll not.

Hughes keeps saying that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. I question why he keeps saying that. You certainly don't need confidence to run around a lot and press players.

Hamilton seemed at times to have 20 shaven headed galoots on the pitch. All of them with far inferior ability to our own side but knew that they were the underdogs and decided to make up for being crap by being in our faces all the time.

I think that's what Hughes is saying when he talks about seige mentality, underdogs and boiler suits. He's telling us that the players Hibs sanction are unwanted elsewhere for a reason, even if they have the ability to look superior on paper to any other SPL side.

We saw similar under different managers and different players (Collins' 'Hunting In Packs' philosophy, for instance) Not exactly what we ended up seeing from Filipe Morais, Alan O'Brien or Clayton Donaldson was it, even though all were 'attacked minded players'.

So I see the problem now repeating itself over and over and that tells me that it ain't entirely the manager.

For those older and talented players at ER, you're guaranteed a place in the side and you came to us for regular football and you're not short of a few quid, plus you have a contract anyway. So what else is your motiviation work harder when the manager screams at you to work harder?

Iain G
20-09-2010, 10:56 AM
This is linked to my point about our signing policy.

It's not about being able, it's about being ersed.

Our policy is not to pay Transfer fees, because it is dead money and we ain't got much money. Financially, that's sound policy.

However, that means that to meet the expectation of good football at Hibs, you're in the market for technically good players who don't cost money.

This leads us to players who, for whatever reason, are not wanted by their current club or free already.

Now, why are they in either category if they are technically gifted? Liam Miller wasn't wanted by QPR? Why not? Good player, no? Did they have better, similar, cheaper?

I believe that we're signing players who have ability and that appeases the support but are addicted CBeebies (Can't Be Bothereds)

Miller is a prime example. 29, Millionaire, wants a club where he'll be picked no matter what. Hibs is a great destination for him and occasionally he'll light up the place, but mostly he'll not.

Hughes keeps saying that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. I question why he keeps saying that. You certainly don't need confidence to run around a lot and press players.

Hamilton seemed at times to have 20 shaven headed galoots on the pitch. All of them with far inferior ability to our own side but knew that they were the underdogs and decided to make up for being crap by being in our faces all the time.

I think that's what Hughes is saying when he talks about seige mentality, underdogs and boiler suits. He's telling us that the players Hibs sanction are unwanted elsewhere for a reason, even if they have the ability to look superior on paper to any other SPL side.

We saw similar under different managers and different players (Collins' 'Hunting In Packs' philosophy, for instance) Not exactly what we ended up seeing from Filipe Morais, Alan O'Brien or Clayton Donaldson was it, even though all were 'attacked minded players'.

So I see the problem now repeating itself over and over and that tells me that it ain't entirely the manager.

For those older and talented players at ER, you're guaranteed a place in the side and you came to us for regular football and you're not short of a few quid, plus you have a contract anyway. So what else is your motiviation work harder when the manager screams at you to work harder?

I have thought for sometime there was something wrong with the attitude at Easter Road, perhaps you have hit the nail on the head with some of the above post. I would expect some of the players unwanted by other clubs would want to prove their previous empolyers wrong, but rarely does that seem to happen in our case.

The obvious answer is to pitch in the younger, hungry homegrown players into the squad to compensate for these issues and hopefully energise them, alas Yogi has punted some of those such players out to other clubs instead of putting the pressure on our underachieving experienced players. Only hope when they come back they push straight into the first team set up.

Out of the players we have paid cash for in recent years, only really Deek and Bamba are still in the first team picture, compared to the likes of O'Brien and Makalamby, so you can in some ways see the boards reasoning for being reluctant to give the managers money.

I do suspect there are issues with Yogi and his communication skills in the mix aswell. :devil:

Speedway
20-09-2010, 11:07 AM
I have thought for sometime there was something wrong with the attitude at Easter Road, perhaps you have hit the nail on the head with some of the above post. I would expect some of the players unwanted by other clubs would want to prove their previous empolyers wrong, but rarely does that seem to happen in our case.

The obvious answer is to pitch in the younger, hungry homegrown players into the squad to compensate for these issues and hopefully energise them, alas Yogi has punted some of those such players out to other clubs instead of putting the pressure on our underachieving experienced players. Only hope when they come back they push straight into the first team set up.

Out of the players we have paid cash for in recent years, only really Deek and Bamba are still in the first team picture, compared to the likes of O'Brien and Makalamby, so you can in some ways see the boards reasoning for being reluctant to give the managers money.

I do suspect there are issues with Yogi and his communication skills in the mix aswell. :devil:

Which was the Mowbray model, albeit that he was forced into adopting that route. This means that we generally will only attract rookie managers prepared to work this way.

Yet we all cry out for experience.

Hughes, from todays Scotsman.

He said: "When I talk about underdogs I am trying to instil a mindset and mentality that we battle and bite for every ball, not going out there thinking it will, or it might happen, but that we are going out to make it happen. As for the 'questions and answers,' the transfer window is closed, we have what we have and we to stick together, to keep battling away and see where that takes us. Football never comes easy, everyone is capable of beating each other as results have already shown this season."

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Yogi-calls-on-Hibs-fans.6540060.jp

I believe Hughes knows exactly what the problems are, I believe he has the answers. I don't believe he or anyone else will be fully allowed to implement the answers though and to be fair to the board, he knew that when he joined.

So he works with what he can get, not always who he wanted as first or even second choice.

Therefore, we revert back to the stick together, won't happen overnight, need the fans support mantras.

Peevemor
20-09-2010, 11:15 AM
The problem with Hibernian fc is that the board could not pick a decent manager to save themselves and i include Mowbry in that lot, every recent manager has been a cheap option which seems to be Rod's way of operating ie we will find a nugget of gold amongst the dross way of thinking which has spectacularly backfired in our most recent history.

What 'expensive' (ie. good/experienced) manager is going to come to a club with a player budget like ours? Okay it might be the 4th highest in the SPL, but it's still bog all compared to the top 2 English leagues.

Iain G
20-09-2010, 11:16 AM
Which was the Mowbray model, albeit that he was forced into adopting that route. This means that we generally will only attract rookie managers prepared to work this way.

Yet we all cry out for experience.

Hughes, from todays Scotsman.

He said: "When I talk about underdogs I am trying to instil a mindset and mentality that we battle and bite for every ball, not going out there thinking it will, or it might happen, but that we are going out to make it happen. As for the 'questions and answers,' the transfer window is closed, we have what we have and we to stick together, to keep battling away and see where that takes us. Football never comes easy, everyone is capable of beating each other as results have already shown this season."

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Yogi-calls-on-Hibs-fans.6540060.jp

I believe Hughes knows exactly what the problems are, I believe he has the answers. I don't believe he or anyone else will be fully allowed to implement the answers though and to be fair to the board, he knew that when he joined.

So he works with what he can get, not always who he wanted as first or even second choice.

Therefore, we revert back to the stick together, won't happen overnight, need the fans support mantras.

So where did things go so badly wrong last season, following the blistering start he had as manager, where we were actually being suggested, even among the decent press, as being good enough to split the OF, to the disasterous 2nd half of the season and the continuation of that weak form into this season?

The general theory would be that, under Yogi's coaching, that the team should be getting stronger rather than now be struggling to hang onto a point against Hamilton at Easter Road?

We still have to live within our means, yet our budget is probably the 4th or 5th biggest in the league, and we have the players who everyone thinks should be operating at a level higher than they are at present? Players under performing and manager unable to field what resources he has procured as a winning unit, recipe for a bad season looming :(

It's all a far cry from Yogi admitting he was going for 3rd place last year to "the fan's expectations is too high" when we struggle against the mighty Accies at home...

TrickyNicky
20-09-2010, 11:16 AM
This is linked to my point about our signing policy.

It's not about being able, it's about being ersed.

Our policy is not to pay Transfer fees, because it is dead money and we ain't got much money. Financially, that's sound policy.

However, that means that to meet the expectation of good football at Hibs, you're in the market for technically good players who don't cost money.

This leads us to players who, for whatever reason, are not wanted by their current club or free already.

Now, why are they in either category if they are technically gifted? Liam Miller wasn't wanted by QPR? Why not? Good player, no? Did they have better, similar, cheaper?

I believe that we're signing players who have ability and that appeases the support but are addicted CBeebies (Can't Be Bothereds)

Miller is a prime example. 29, Millionaire, wants a club where he'll be picked no matter what. Hibs is a great destination for him and occasionally he'll light up the place, but mostly he'll not.

Hughes keeps saying that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. I question why he keeps saying that. You certainly don't need confidence to run around a lot and press players.

Hamilton seemed at times to have 20 shaven headed galoots on the pitch. All of them with far inferior ability to our own side but knew that they were the underdogs and decided to make up for being crap by being in our faces all the time.

I think that's what Hughes is saying when he talks about seige mentality, underdogs and boiler suits. He's telling us that the players Hibs sanction are unwanted elsewhere for a reason, even if they have the ability to look superior on paper to any other SPL side.

We saw similar under different managers and different players (Collins' 'Hunting In Packs' philosophy, for instance) Not exactly what we ended up seeing from Filipe Morais, Alan O'Brien or Clayton Donaldson was it, even though all were 'attacked minded players'.

So I see the problem now repeating itself over and over and that tells me that it ain't entirely the manager.

For those older and talented players at ER, you're guaranteed a place in the side and you came to us for regular football and you're not short of a few quid, plus you have a contract anyway. So what else is your motiviation work harder when the manager screams at you to work harder?

Fantastic post.
Thanks.

Andy74
20-09-2010, 11:26 AM
This is linked to my point about our signing policy.

It's not about being able, it's about being ersed.

Our policy is not to pay Transfer fees, because it is dead money and we ain't got much money. Financially, that's sound policy.

However, that means that to meet the expectation of good football at Hibs, you're in the market for technically good players who don't cost money.

This leads us to players who, for whatever reason, are not wanted by their current club or free already.

Now, why are they in either category if they are technically gifted? Liam Miller wasn't wanted by QPR? Why not? Good player, no? Did they have better, similar, cheaper?

I believe that we're signing players who have ability and that appeases the support but are addicted CBeebies (Can't Be Bothereds)

Miller is a prime example. 29, Millionaire, wants a club where he'll be picked no matter what. Hibs is a great destination for him and occasionally he'll light up the place, but mostly he'll not.

Hughes keeps saying that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. I question why he keeps saying that. You certainly don't need confidence to run around a lot and press players.

Hamilton seemed at times to have 20 shaven headed galoots on the pitch. All of them with far inferior ability to our own side but knew that they were the underdogs and decided to make up for being crap by being in our faces all the time.

I think that's what Hughes is saying when he talks about seige mentality, underdogs and boiler suits. He's telling us that the players Hibs sanction are unwanted elsewhere for a reason, even if they have the ability to look superior on paper to any other SPL side.

We saw similar under different managers and different players (Collins' 'Hunting In Packs' philosophy, for instance) Not exactly what we ended up seeing from Filipe Morais, Alan O'Brien or Clayton Donaldson was it, even though all were 'attacked minded players'.

So I see the problem now repeating itself over and over and that tells me that it ain't entirely the manager.

For those older and talented players at ER, you're guaranteed a place in the side and you came to us for regular football and you're not short of a few quid, plus you have a contract anyway. So what else is your motiviation work harder when the manager screams at you to work harder?


I've been saying this for years.

We want players that are a bit different and that means that everything that makes us great on our day can at other times mean we are dreadful.

We could go the other way and ensure we have a bunch of scrappers and workers in there but I doubt that would really suit us either.

What we need to try and get to, and I think Hughes is working hard on this, is to take players that have the talent we want, and try and instill the other side of it. It's not easy though and easy for us to say that players aren't listening or not reacting to Hughes.

Getting players that are are skilful as we expect yet are workers and at the top of their game isn't going to happen easily within our budget.

I agree with Hughes that you need to try and bring in players that think that way but that you also need to grow this attitude from the kids up. This will take a number of years.

You can see with the personalities of those he has brought in that he is looking for certain types but again, these guys haven't played much football in the SPL so that will take some time too.

I'm willing to give it as long as it takes this time otherwise we are here year in year out pretending it's tactics or whatever.

If impatience means that a change is forced I'd be very concerned about what this club will ever be able to achieve with that attitude.

Iain G
20-09-2010, 11:33 AM
I've been saying this for years.

We want players that are a bit different and that means that everything that makes us great on our day can at other times mean we are dreadful.

We could go the other way and ensure we have a bunch of scrappers and workers in there but I doubt that would really suit us either.

What we need to try and get to, and I think Hughes is working hard on this, is to take players that have the talent we want, and try and instill the other side of it. It's not easy though and easy for us to say that players aren't listening or not reacting to Hughes.

Getting players that are are skilful as we expect yet are workers and at the top of their game isn't going to happen easily within our budget.

I agree with Hughes that you need to try and bring in players that think that way but that you also need to grow this attitude from the kids up. This will take a number of years.

You can see with the personalities of those he has brought in that he is looking for certain types but again, these guys haven't played much football in the SPL so that will take some time too.

I'm willing to give it as long as it takes this time otherwise we are here year in year out pretending it's tactics or whatever.

If impatience means that a change is forced I'd be very concerned about what this club will ever be able to achieve with that attitude.

Funny Andy, I thought (and in some cases still do) that Collins was the man to lead that change, to actually envigorate the club from the bottom up to push our players fitness and skill and workrate. We saw that it worked wonders with the younger players, the Stevensons and McCanns, but the experienced pro's reacted in completely the opposite way and went crying like babies to whoever would listen.

Yogi seems to be trying the same, but more slowly, alas the experienced pro's again seem to be the ones not responding and those youngsters who may take it onboard are out on loan at present.

How long is long enough to say it isn't or is working? It is still the first team that is important to us all and that team needs to be competing at the upper end of the SPL.

TrickyNicky
20-09-2010, 11:33 AM
So where did things go so badly wrong last season, following the blistering start he had as manager, where we were actually being suggested, even among the decent press, as being good enough to split the OF, to the disasterous 2nd half of the season and the continuation of that weak form into this season?

The general theory would be that, under Yogi's coaching, that the team should be getting stronger rather than now be struggling to hang onto a point against Hamilton at Easter Road?

We still have to live within our means, yet our budget is probably the 4th or 5th biggest in the league, and we have the players who everyone thinks should be operating at a level higher than they are at present? Players under performing and manager unable to field what resources he has procured as a winning unit, recipe for a bad season looming :(

It's all a far cry from Yogi admitting he was going for 3rd place last year to "the fan's expectations is too high" when we struggle against the mighty Accies at home...

Maybe many of our players of pedigree were found out not only by opposing teams but Hughes also.

Our results indicate that everyone now knows our weaknesses, even the bottom three teams.

Is Hughes struggling to instil the drive and desire in certain players that may have lost it a while ago and can he find the carrot for them.
Did some of them ever really have the level of consistent ability and determination that they were touted as having but would only turn it on when needed for their own personal gain?

basehibby
20-09-2010, 12:07 PM
Funny Andy, I thought (and in some cases still do) that Collins was the man to lead that change, to actually envigorate the club from the bottom up to push our players fitness and skill and workrate. We saw that it worked wonders with the younger players, the Stevensons and McCanns, but the experienced pro's reacted in completely the opposite way and went crying like babies to whoever would listen.

Yogi seems to be trying the same, but more slowly, alas the experienced pro's again seem to be the ones not responding and those youngsters who may take it onboard are out on loan at present.

How long is long enough to say it isn't or is working? It is still the first team that is important to us all and that team needs to be competing at the upper end of the SPL.

One experienced player who seems to be reacting in the right way is Riordan - he was an example to his teammates on staurday as he continued to show a good bit of fight and attitude to add to his guile (are you watching Craig levein???). Unfortunately, most of his teammates - and in particular Liam Miller who was all but invisible for most of the game - did not follow his example and finished up with the the single point their insipid play deserved.
What causes players to play within themselves like this is the million dollar question - eejits booing from the stands are obviously no help whatsoever, but the buck ultimately stops with the manager for answering this question and getting the best out of the resources at his disposal.
Hughes will get a wee while yet to show that he can do this but failing to get a win at home against two of the weakier sides in the league will not help his case one iota.

Speedway
20-09-2010, 12:25 PM
Have you noticed the lack of knee jerkers showing up on this thread?

All thought out responses to a man (or indeed woman for all I know) I appreciate that.

In summary then, the causes are put forward as being the nature of the transfer policy of the club, the man management style of the manager and the application of the players which unlike Hughes, I CAN and do ask for more.

I would say it's 50% the first issue, 40% the third issue and only 10% the second issue.

Therefore, as poor as I thought we were on Saturday, I guess I'm saying that I think that Hughes should be given longer to achieve what he's trying to do as long as we finish in the top 5 of the league.

At The Edge
20-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Your bit about De Graaf is spot on, i remember talking to a Celtic fan about Robbie Keane, time and time again he was made to look like a numpty simply because he was 2 or 3 passes ahead of his team mates, running to positions where he THOUGHT the ball would be coming, only to find that it didn't, or making passes to where he thought a player would be only to find that they weren't.

De Graaf will be good when his team mates catch up with him.

Great posts by the way,
:top marks

BEEJ
20-09-2010, 01:28 PM
Speedway, this is a very interesting thread and thanks for taking the time to set out your thoughts in such a coherent style.

Few would disagree with the three issues that you listed in your final post:

the club's transfer policy / financial constraints
the contribution / work ethic of key players
the man management style of the manager

the argument would be over the weightings attached to each factor.

On specific points:

Hughes has been reduced to looking at and signing trialists just like Mixu was and was saying earlier on this year how many 'doors had been slammed' in the pursuit for new faces.

Mixu has said how he couldn't play the football expected of him at Hibs with the personnel he was allowed to sign. Collins walked when we wouldn't sanction cash for Hammil. etc etc.
This has been the position for a number of years now. Unless RP et al are being less than honest with managerial candidates during the recruitment process, new incumbents must have a pretty good idea of these financial constraints when they agree to take the post.

I thought the club had started to release these constraints when Mixu arrived (shortly after SL took over the CEO role). The players that we have been able to bring in during 2008 and 2009 indicate that there has been a greater flexibility in the club's ability to negotiate deals with a better standard of player.

However, the summer window just past suggests that we may have regressed in that regard. Four of our seven signings secured within 36 hours of the transfer window closing; and one of those a fortnight after the window closed.

We must be the worst club in the SPL for leaving our recruitment to the bitter end when the bargains are to be had. Whereas I respect what the Board are seeking to achieve financially, I confess to looking at other SPL clubs with lesser player budgets than ourselves and wondering how they can assemble their squads so much earlier in the summer and with such apparent speed and efficiency.

From the NOTW article for which you gave the link, Mixu states:


"The way you can play at one club is never the same as another. That was the big lure of coming to Kilmarnock.

"The squad was very small in terms of numbers, so I thought 'great'. There was a transfer kitty - not big, quite small actually - but I thought I could look for players who fitted the way I wanted to play. Luckily the players have been available.

I don't get that. :confused: Hibs must have had a bigger player budget through 2008 than Killie have now. So just what constraints is Mixu alluding to here? They don't sound like they're all budgetary in nature.

If there is any truth in this statement then the supporters need to know just what these limitations are.


Player acquisition policy (we're looking for the 'right type of player' according to every manager since Mowbray) willingness to deal with certain agents, making sure we have the personnel that people will want to watch etc etc etc. All need looking at in my opinion and that's not down entirely down to the team manager, whoever it is at the time.
What is that about? Will RP only deal with certain agents, thereby limiting the pool of available players that his Manager can consider for additions to his squad?


I think our vision as a club, needs re-adjusting. Maybe now that we've built the East it will, but this is not the manager's fault. Yogi will be a successful manager elsewhere.
On what evidence can you base this statement other than wishful thinking? Yogi struggled latterly at Falkirk and is not exactly setting the heather alight here.

I guess I would place a weighting much higher than 10% on the manager's part in our current predicament. :wink:

delbert
20-09-2010, 01:42 PM
A great OP and an interesting insight, most of which I agree with, but the fact remains that our last 3 managers have alluded to problems not just of a budgetary nature behind the scenes, the most public of which was the bust up with JC where from all accounts, the basic problem was that he wanted them to actually start behaving like professional footballers. As any on here know, I am not a Hughes fan, but when the players think they really are bigger than the club, then the actual problem is deeper than a clueless manager, but when you have both, God help our club.

Caversham Green
20-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Speedway, forgive the selective quoting. I do agree with much of what you're saying, but I think there's a need for a few counterpoints.
It's been years since I've seen a side come to ER (Maribor excepted) and driven away from the ground thinking, we were no match for them. Every SPL side I see including the Yams and the OF look beatable with what we've got, to me.

Surely then, the fact that we're not beating them has more to do with the manager or players' attitude than the policy that brought them here.


Hughes has been reduced to looking at and signing trialists just like Mixu was and was saying earlier on this year how many 'doors had been slammed' in the pursuit for new faces.But you've already said we have enough to beat our competitiors, in which case trialists are as good a way as any to improve what we already have.


I'm starting to feel that despite what the board publish as their intention, every commercial venture seems important to Hibs except the footie, because that means spending a lot of money for no guaranteed return. Infrastructure delivers forecastable return.The club doesn't have many commercial ventures other than footie. The stand and training facilities aren't going to produce any income per se and the whole point about infrastructure is that it doesn't deliver forecastable return - it provides the environment for activities that do.


Our policy is not to pay Transfer fees, because it is dead money and we ain't got much money. Financially, that's sound policy.

Point of order here - I reckon we've spent more on transfer fees in the last two seasons than any of our competitors including the yams (but excluding the OF).


However, that means that to meet the expectation of good football at Hibs, you're in the market for technically good players who don't cost money.So if we want the club to be successful we need to lower our expectations regarding the type of player we sign?


Miller is a prime example. 29, Millionaire, wants a club where he'll be picked no matter what. Hibs is a great destination for him and occasionally he'll light up the place, but mostly he'll not. Rather than being an example, Miller strikes me as being unique in this respect.


We saw similar under different managers and different players (Collins' 'Hunting In Packs' philosophy, for instance) Not exactly what we ended up seeing from Filipe Morais, Alan O'Brien or Clayton Donaldson was it, even though all were 'attacked minded players'.But these players don't fall into the same category as Liam Miller or any of Yogi's other signings.

In general, I think you're describing the constraints that all SPL clubs operate under regarding signing new players. Hibs have a financial advantage over the rest of the clubs and have arguably used that advantage quite well, hence the first quote. It's the manager's job to make the most of the resources at his disposal and to improve them as the opportunity arises. Right now, Yogi is failing to do that. On the other hand, managing a group of young footballers is no easy task and he needs and deserves enough time to instil his own culture into the group.Whether a season and a wee bit is enough time is debatable, but it ain't looking good at the moment.

I've posted briefly on th PM board why I think the player culture at ER is both a throwback to Mowbray's time and a product of the high turnover of managers. IMO it is vital that we eradicate that culture as a matter of urgency, and that means keeping the right manager in place for a number of seasons.

Speedway
20-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Thanks for that CG, my initial thoughts on your points raised.



Speedway, forgive the selective quoting. I do agree with much of what you're saying, but I think there's a need for a few counterpoints.

Surely then, the fact that we're not beating them has more to do with the manager or players' attitude than the policy that brought them here.

True, player attitude and effort is a major contributor in my opinion.

But you've already said we have enough to beat our competitiors, in which case trialists are as good a way as any to improve what we already have.

If we have enough to beat our competitors on a given day, but want to improve still further, trialists are not necessarily as good a way as any, if better contracted players have turned us down for varying reasons.


The club doesn't have many commercial ventures other than footie. The stand and training facilities aren't going to produce any income per se and the whole point about infrastructure is that it doesn't deliver forecastable return - it provides the environment for activities that do.

Point of order there and one I accept. I would counter that the board can calculate an ROI on the new stand based on cost per seat, number of additional tickets sold across x number of games. It also has an ROI based on income generated from non-Hibernian events at ER. All of which allow a timetable for payback and an ability to translate when that payback will wash through into cashflow.

Point of order here - I reckon we've spent more on transfer fees in the last two seasons than any of our competitors including the yams (but excluding the OF).

Regardless, it is not our general policy to pay transfer fees and therefore it removes a large section of the market of players that could improve us in our wage bracket, before we've started.

So if we want the club to be successful we need to lower our expectations regarding the type of player we sign?

Not that I'm aware of.

Rather than being an example, Miller strikes me as being unique in this respect.

What does Hart need to play for Hibs for? De Graaf? Even Brown potentially.

Non-financially, what is Nish going to achieve in his career now? Smith? Stack? Murray? What is their motivation to work their erses off, besides personal pride?

But these players don't fall into the same category as Liam Miller or any of Yogi's other signings.

In general, I think you're describing the constraints that all SPL clubs operate under regarding signing new players. Hibs have a financial advantage over the rest of the clubs and have arguably used that advantage quite well, hence the first quote. It's the manager's job to make the most of the resources at his disposal and to improve them as the opportunity arises. Right now, Yogi is failing to do that. On the other hand, managing a group of young footballers is no easy task and he needs and deserves enough time to instil his own culture into the group.Whether a season and a wee bit is enough time is debatable, but it ain't looking good at the moment.

Surely, any money spent sacking a manager and his backroom team, is money out of the kitty for the incoming manager? If Yogi is keeping us in the top 5, I say keep him for the long term and let him build his culture.


I've posted briefly on th PM board why I think the player culture at ER is both a throwback to Mowbray's time and a product of the high turnover of managers. IMO it is vital that we eradicate that culture as a matter of urgency, and that means keeping the right manager in place for a number of seasons.

I agree.

NAE NOOKIE
20-09-2010, 05:58 PM
Good thread this and many well thought out posts.

I am not sure though that being disappointed with our current form against teams we should be able to beat can be discribed as a knee jerk reaction.

Yes, over the last 3 years the club have spent a fortune on infrastructure, but that is now finished with so the long term hope must be that over the next 5 years a large chunk of any money taken in will go to the playing side.

E.G.

Where we would have spent a maximum of £100,000 on a player we can then spend £250,000.

Where we pay players an average of £3,000 per week we can pay £5,000.

And be able to do this within the means of the club.

Still not enough to challenge the ugly sisters, but enough to have a decent hope of 3rd and PLEASE a decent hope in the Scottish Cup.

Kojock
20-09-2010, 06:20 PM
Scott Lindsay was stood having a laugh with his mate in the club shop at 2.30pm. If I was a Chief Exec that had just posted a £2.2m operating loss for the company I'm in charge of, I wouldn't be laughing.

Scott Lindsay is a gentleman and one of the most approachable guys at Hibernian FC. He will answer all questions as honestly as he can.

As for your comment re him laughing FFS get in touch with reality. :grr:

Part/Time Supporter
20-09-2010, 06:25 PM
From the NOTW article for which you gave the link, Mixu states:

....

I don't get that. :confused: Hibs must have had a bigger player budget through 2008 than Killie have now. So just what constraints is Mixu alluding to here? They don't sound like they're all budgetary in nature.

If there is any truth in this statement then the supporters need to know just what these limitations are.


I suspect what Mixu is talking about is that a significant chunk of "his" budget was already spoken for on players identified by the board (ie Petrie) - Murray, Nish, Rankin, Riordan. Whereas presumably all the players signed for Killie have been identified by him. And in the final window he was in charge, he only signed players until the end of that season (Szamotulski and Rosa). Maybe Mixu feels more confident in having complete control of a smaller budget than partial control of a bigger budget?

A similar concern was the public reason behind Collins' departure. He had identified Steven Hammell to replace Murphy, but wasn't given the funding for it (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/collins-and-hoddle-in-line-after-fulham-sack-sanchez-766728.html). Hibs ended up signing Ian Murray - who isn't a specialist left back, and probably wasn't any cheaper than Hammell - and wasted a few quid on Bobby Zarabi. They still haven't signed or developed a specialist left back, 2.5 years later.

I think this all points to a level of micro-management by Petrie, and frankly you have to question what qualifies him to make decisions like that.

sahib
20-09-2010, 06:57 PM
Which was the Mowbray model, albeit that he was forced into adopting that route. This means that we generally will only attract rookie managers prepared to work this way.

Yet we all cry out for experience.

Hughes, from todays Scotsman.

He said: "When I talk about underdogs I am trying to instil a mindset and mentality that we battle and bite for every ball, not going out there thinking it will, or it might happen, but that we are going out to make it happen. As for the 'questions and answers,' the transfer window is closed, we have what we have and we to stick together, to keep battling away and see where that takes us. Football never comes easy, everyone is capable of beating each other as results have already shown this season."

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Yogi-calls-on-Hibs-fans.6540060.jp

I believe Hughes knows exactly what the problems are, I believe he has the answers. I don't believe he or anyone else will be fully allowed to implement the answers though and to be fair to the board, he knew that when he joined.

So he works with what he can get, not always who he wanted as first or even second choice.

Therefore, we revert back to the stick together, won't happen overnight, need the fans support mantras.

What is it with managers, they seem to need to sign more than half a ruddy team a season. I can see really bad planning and management requiring this to happen when the team has been let slide, but **** me, after that they should only need one or two per season. Where is our famous youth system. The last decent one is at Molineux. He was a Mowbray break through and that is four managers back. Spoony could go the way of Stevenson (although he is not much worse than what we have now). If I was Petrie I would tell the next incumbent that he had one season for a clear out then he must use what he has got and bring in a least couple of young players every season.

HibbyCal
20-09-2010, 07:05 PM
I thought Grounds looked a pretty solid player. Still young and learning but I would try to keep him longer.

BEEJ
20-09-2010, 07:18 PM
I suspect what Mixu is talking about is that a significant chunk of "his" budget was already spoken for on players identified by the board (ie Petrie) - Murray, Nish, Rankin, Riordan. Whereas presumably all the players signed for Killie have been identified by him. And in the final window he was in charge, he only signed players until the end of that season (Szamotulski and Rosa). Maybe Mixu feels more confident in having complete control of a smaller budget than partial control of a bigger budget?

A similar concern was the public reason behind Collins' departure. He had identified Steven Hammell to replace Murphy, but wasn't given the funding for it (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/collins-and-hoddle-in-line-after-fulham-sack-sanchez-766728.html). Hibs ended up signing Ian Murray - who isn't a specialist left back, and probably wasn't any cheaper than Hammell - and wasted a few quid on Bobby Zarabi. They still haven't signed or developed a specialist left back, 2.5 years later.

I think this all points to a level of micro-management by Petrie, and frankly you have to question what qualifies him to make decisions like that.
Is there genuine evidence to back up this suggestion that RP is active in selecting players for Hibs in the transfer market? I thought that was Vlad territory. :confused:

The official line is that the Manager makes up a list of targets and hands that over to RP who goes off to negotiate the deals, if possible, and bring the players in.

I do recall thinking that the signings of Rankin and Nish in January 2008 happened very quickly after Mixu's arrival; but I put that down to JC having identified them before his departure.

Danderhall Hibs
20-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Is there genuine evidence to back up this suggestion that RP is active in selecting players for Hibs in the transfer market? I thought that was Vlad territory. :confused:

The official line is that the Manager makes up a list of targets and hands that over to RP who goes off to negotiate the deals, if possible, and bring the players in.

I do recall thinking that the signings of Rankin and Nish in January 2008 happened very quickly after Mixu's arrival; but I put that down to JC having identified them before his departure.

JC said on Radio Scotland that Petrie had asked him on more than one occasion if he wanted to sign Rankin and Collins had always said no. As soon as he left the club Petrie signed him.

That's the only "evidence" AFAIK.

Blurry Face
20-09-2010, 07:29 PM
Since Mowbray I've been convinced the problems have run much deeper than this years manager

We simply are not run like my idea of a football club

got to agree sadly, and that's without knowing what your idea of a football club is.

Speedway
20-09-2010, 07:33 PM
Scott Lindsay is a gentleman and one of the most approachable guys at Hibernian FC. He will answer all questions as honestly as he can.

As for your comment re him laughing FFS get in touch with reality. :grr:

Yes I know he is. However, when someone is stood in the middle of a very busy shop, it is very hard to strike up a conversation about the finer points of our player acquisition policy.

On the laughing, he can pee himself in private for all I care but in public after that set of results, he should have been shaking everyone,s hand thanking them fir coming and asking them for feedback. I was in there long enough to see that this was not the case.

Caversham Green
20-09-2010, 07:50 PM
Thanks for that CG, my initial thoughts on your points raised.




I agree.

In response to some of your points:

My point about the infrastructure was that there's no guarantee that it will in itself bring in additional income on a significant and regular basis. It can only have been put in place with a view to improving the income from football, even if it doesn't look that way at the moment.

On the lowering our expectations bit, I was being a bit facetious - your comment reads as if it was a complaint that the players we try to sign are too talented and we'd be better going for hammerthrowers.

I take your point about Nish, Stack etc, but these players aren't or shouldn't be automatic first team picks, which was part of the basis of your argument. I was ignoring this season's signings because I really don't know what to make of them.

My general point about transfer fees, trialists etc is this: We've established between ourselves that the players we have are capable of beating our normal level of opposition and we are already spending more than most of them in acquiring and keeping players, to the extent that we are now spending more than we can afford. It would therefore be wasteful and dangerous to throw more money at the team without first establishing why the resources we already have are not performing as they should.

Banff
20-09-2010, 08:12 PM
Simple solution really. Stop selling our best assets to rival clubs when we dont need to!

BEEJ
20-09-2010, 08:29 PM
Yes I know he is. However, when someone is stood in the middle of a very busy shop, it is very hard to strike up a conversation about the finer points of our player acquisition policy.

On the laughing, he can pee himself in private for all I care but in public after that set of results, he should have been shaking everyone,s hand thanking them fir coming and asking them for feedback. I was in there long enough to see that this was not the case.
:greengrin

I don't think SL's regular appearances in the ER club shop pre-kickoff are designed as opportunities for in-depth discussion of such complex matters. Probably that's deliberate.

I do take your point, though; there is a fine line between having an air of calm authority and looking complacent. Much of that lies in the eye of the beholder.

But if our current run of home form continues much longer I doubt that you'll see SL in the club shop at all until circumstances change.

Dirkster23
20-09-2010, 08:46 PM
One experienced player who seems to be reacting in the right way is Riordan - he was an example to his teammates on staurday as he continued to show a good bit of fight and attitude to add to his guile (are you watching Craig levein???). Unfortunately, most of his teammates - and in particular Liam Miller who was all but invisible for most of the game - did not follow his example and finished up with the the single point their insipid play deserved.
What causes players to play within themselves like this is the million dollar question - eejits booing from the stands are obviously no help whatsoever, but the buck ultimately stops with the manager for answering this question and getting the best out of the resources at his disposal.
Hughes will get a wee while yet to show that he can do this but failing to get a win at home against two of the weakier sides in the league will not help his case one iota.

And by all accounts he's one player the manager wants to get rid of!

blackpoolhibs
20-09-2010, 08:51 PM
And by all accounts he's one player the manager wants to get rid of!

Its a rumour that seems to have grown legs, yet every time the manager is interviewed, he seems to praise Derek to the hilt. :confused:

Dirkster23
20-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Its a rumour that seems to have grown legs, yet every time the manager is interviewed, he seems to praise Derek to the hilt. :confused:

People who should be in the know have mentioned it so i've no reason to doubt it.

He's out of contract at the end of the season and is without doubt our biggest asset but there's no sign of contract talks. Why would RP let a player of value run down his contract and leave for nothing if the manager wanted to keep him?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
20-09-2010, 09:01 PM
Really good thread guys, notable for its (almost) total lack of eejits spouting utter pish (although i did notice one guy had written off our current proven right back because he felt that an un-proved centre half playing out of position would somehow be a better option!

We all had a good post-morten after the game on saturday and mixed in amongst the anger and disillusionment, there were a few remarks about how many managers we are going to go through that the players just 'stop playing for' before we realise that there is something worng with either

a) the playing staff or
b) the club culture (or something else unseen by the masses).

I read Mixu's interview i will be really interested to see how his Killie stint works, because if (and i know its a big if) he proves to be a useful manager and does a good job, then maybe questions really do need to be asked?

I agree with the poster who said earlier that Collins seemed to be the man to clear out many of the problems at Easter Road, but alas that wasnt to be.

I do like a lot of what Yogi says, and i want to believe he has the answers - maybe he does - but i would feel a lot more comfortable if he stopped covering for them - if they are the problem, i want to know about it - i hate all this innuendo, veiled comments, and people in the know talking about players and managers not getting on etc - if there is a major problem of culture i want to hear Yogi come out fighting, identify the problem and identify how he is going to remedy it.

I cant help but note that Aberdeen seem to suffer a lot of the same problems as us - any similarities?

blackpoolhibs
20-09-2010, 09:03 PM
People who should be in the know have mentioned it so i've no reason to doubt it.

He's out of contract at the end of the season and is without doubt our biggest asset but there's no sign of contract talks. Why would RP let a player of value run down his contract and leave for nothing if the manager wanted to keep him?

Is that whats happening? Does Derek want to sign on again, how much does he want and is it in our budget?

Dirkster23
20-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Is that whats happening? Does Derek want to sign on again, how much does he want and is it in our budget?

It appears that's what's happening. Do you know different?

It appears he wants to stay. We've just sold one 20 goal a season striker, surely no manager would want to lose another? If Yogi rates him so highly surely he'll be asking RP to ensure he's signed up asap?

blackpoolhibs
20-09-2010, 09:24 PM
It appears that's what's happening. Do you know different?

It appears he wants to stay. We've just sold one 20 goal a season striker, surely no manager would want to lose another? If Yogi rates him so highly surely he'll be asking RP to ensure he's signed up asap?

What makes you say it appears Derek wants to stay? I have not heard him say this, although i hope he does. He does have a habit of running his contract down if he does not get the deal he wants, i wonder what he wants, and if its in our budget?
I have no idea whats going on behind the scenes, i also have no idea if Yogi has or has not asked Petrie to ensure he signs Riordan up, do you?

IWasThere2016
20-09-2010, 09:30 PM
Simple solution really. Stop selling our best assets to rival clubs when we dont need to!

There was a £2.2m loss last year before player sales. The sales are a necessary evil.

Do we not sell to the OF if they are the only interested parties, and the player is soon to leave for nowt?

Dirkster23
20-09-2010, 09:31 PM
What makes you say it appears Derek wants to stay? I have not heard him say this, although i hope he does. He does have a habit of running his contract down if he does not get the deal he wants, i wonder what he wants, and if its in our budget?
I have no idea whats going on behind the scenes, i also have no idea if Yogi has or has not asked Petrie to ensure he signs Riordan up, do you?

Someone who appears to be close to him on here's said a few times he'd love to extend his contract. However, the Club haven't approached him about doing this.

At the end of the day neither of us know what's going on or not behind the scenes. If the club don't open contract talks with him before the end of the year i guess that shows the don't want him here next season.

blackpoolhibs
20-09-2010, 09:34 PM
Someone who appears to be close to him on here's said a few times he'd love to extend his contract. However, the Club haven't approached him about doing this.

At the end of the day neither of us know what's going on or not behind the scenes. If the club don't open contract talks with him before the end of the year i guess that shows the don't want him here next season.

:agree:

IWasThere2016
20-09-2010, 09:40 PM
If impatience means that a change is forced I'd be very concerned about what this club will ever be able to achieve with that attitude.

Is the worst home form in our 135 year history not a concern - nor a reason for change?

It is for many (the majority if you read the polls).

WindyMiller
21-09-2010, 08:34 AM
Someone who appears to be close to him on here's said a few times he'd love to extend his contract. However, the Club haven't approached him about doing this.

At the end of the day neither of us know what's going on or not behind the scenes. If the club don't open contract talks with him before the end of the year i guess that shows the don't want him here next season.

That's why these statements need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

P.S. Thanks to the OP and other serious contributers to this excellent thread. It's nice to see we can still discuss the problems at our Club coherently.

Expecting Rain
21-09-2010, 08:58 AM
In my opinion and that`s all that it is, the problems of managing Hibs are far more complex than the suggestions that any of us have to offer but there are basics, we seem to be suffering psychologically as well as physically and confidence is a big part of the game, why are we so inept at set pieces,why do we lack passion and urgency, why can`t we strike a better balance to the team.
At Kilmarnock we have to find answers and they can be found on the training pitch, the manager has to be clear in his communications and be able to motivate his team in a manner which leaves them in no doubt as to what are the minimum requirements are when playing for Hibs, we have to compete from the 1st minute to the 90th minute irrespective of the score believing in what we are doing and putting that into practice no matter what the outcome is, we have to follow that on at Celtic being organised and difficult to play against not letting the heads drop if we go 1 or 2 behind and then carry it on to the next game and the next until the penny finally drops, we have decent players, we need to have direction and organisation, i`m just a punter with very little knowledge, if none regarding coaching but i know this much these are the basics!

matty_f
21-09-2010, 09:27 AM
Good thread Speedway.

I've posted elsewhere about similar issues and I think we suffer now for being a club that most players are happy to stay at, rather than being a club people want to better themselves at.

We need players whose ambitions are greater than playing for Hibernain, IMHO. The reason we have the malaise is that too many players are too comfortable. It's great for the fans to think that players want to stay at the club, however the reality is that it breeds contempt and that's why we're consistently outfought.

If I could, I'd change the signing policy, drop the wage ceiling and bring in players looking to showcase their talents to get to a bigger stage. Put incentives in for wins, and position the club (at least for the time being) as a platform to 'win' a move to a bigger club.

That way we'd have talented, hungry players who have a genuine reason to fight tooth and nail every game.

Andy74
21-09-2010, 09:39 AM
Is the worst home form in our 135 year history not a concern - nor a reason for change?

It is for many (the majority if you read the polls).

Yes a concern and yes a reason for change but disagree that its a change of manager that is needed.

If people succeed in getting the manager changed we'll see just how often we have to go through all this again.

TrickyNicky
21-09-2010, 09:40 AM
In my opinion and that`s all that it is, the problems of managing Hibs are far more complex than the suggestions that any of us have to offer but there are basics, we seem to be suffering psychologically as well as physically and confidence is a big part of the game, why are we so inept at set pieces,why do we lack passion and urgency, why can`t we strike a better balance to the team.
At Kilmarnock we have to find answers and they can be found on the training pitch, the manager has to be clear in his communications and be able to motivate his team in a manner which leaves them in no doubt as to what are the minimum requirements are when playing for Hibs, we have to compete from the 1st minute to the 90th minute irrespective of the score believing in what we are doing and putting that into practice no matter what the outcome is, we have to follow that on at Celtic being organised and difficult to play against not letting the heads drop if we go 1 or 2 behind and then carry it on to the next game and the next until the penny finally drops, we have decent players, we need to have direction and organisation, i`m just a punter with very little knowledge, if none regarding coaching but i know this much these are the basics!

This point stands out for me, regarding confidence and self belief - we have no strut and definitely no swagger and haven't for some time.

There has been glimpses of it under 3 different managers and almost 3 different squads and then the rot sets in, taking complete control of all and sundry.
The whole squad and management almost need to be stripped and rebuilt ( not Steve Austin style, I don't think Rod would sanction 6 mil per player )

Remember the article on Yogi and Watt Nicol.
http://sport.scotsman.com/football/-Interview-Watt-Nicoll-motivational.6029644.jp

Should we be investing in a full- time sports psychologist or is it me that needs one ?

Dr Jimmy
21-09-2010, 09:52 AM
Yes a concern and yes a reason for change but disagree that its a change of manager that is needed.

If people succeed in getting the manager changed we'll see just how often we have to go through all this again.

I hear what you are saying, but is not just the bad results that mean we need to change the manager (my opinion). It is the way he cannot seem to influence a game positively during the 90 mins, add this to the players appearing to "give up" when faced with adversity and his insistence on playing the same way and expecting things to be different, mean there has to be change, starting with the manager.
I also have issues with the way the club is run and their obsession with posting a year end profit, regardless what that does to the team. I think they are now enjoying the pat on the back within the football world for balancing the books instead of putting a winning team together.

Andy74
21-09-2010, 09:52 AM
There might just be a quite straightforward problem here.

How do you marry an attractive passing game with a belief that you have to fight for everything?

Aye, you win the battle first then play football but in practice, how does that work.

I think that is what as a team we are struggling with and it's a very difficult thing to coach. We don't have players just to set up from the start just to battle and fight, nor would I want the team to do that.

We expect the team to come out and pass the football and create chances. Presumably they are trying to do that and we can see that they are being quite careful in posession and are trying to play football they way they know how.

When you are dominating a game with ball and can't quite break teams down, how do these football players become battering rams?

I think as fans we need to decide if we actually want to try and have players that play a bit of football or whther we want to revert to a standard SPL side.

We are of course looking to have it all and Hughes has tried to add presence and a tougher mind set but at the same time we still want these players to be footballers. Trying to get a good mix of both costs a lot more than we have and so it's always going to be a difficult task that when it's not quite working makes us look a lot worse against your standard sides than you should.

Iain G
21-09-2010, 10:19 AM
There might just be a quite straightforward problem here.

How do you marry an attractive passing game with a belief that you have to fight for everything?

Aye, you win the battle first then play football but in practice, how does that work.

I think that is what as a team we are struggling with and it's a very difficult thing to coach. We don't have players just to set up from the start just to battle and fight, nor would I want the team to do that.

We expect the team to come out and pass the football and create chances. Presumably they are trying to do that and we can see that they are being quite careful in posession and are trying to play football they way they know how.

When you are dominating a game with ball and can't quite break teams down, how do these football players become battering rams?

I think as fans we need to decide if we actually want to try and have players that play a bit of football or whther we want to revert to a standard SPL side.

We are of course looking to have it all and Hughes has tried to add presence and a tougher mind set but at the same time we still want these players to be footballers. Trying to get a good mix of both costs a lot more than we have and so it's always going to be a difficult task that when it's not quite working makes us look a lot worse against your standard sides than you should.

Tony Mowbray tried to play flair with us, and to a certain extent, it worked and we were generally happy with what was on offer, even if that did mean we got humped every now and again. He tried this philosophy at West Brom and Celtic and is now out of work, he couldn't get it to work, you need to try and somehow marry the two together, a la Arsene Wenger at Arsenal, but even then they haven't dominated as they perhaps could.

You need to be a pragmatist and a dreamer at the same time, perhaps it works sometimes, with the right manager and the right players, but in the current SPL with our current manager and players, it has generally failed.

To us laymen, perhaps having 4 big thumping defenders and a midfield enforcer, with 5 attacking flair players around them might seem to be the easy way to get this to work, I dunno, what I do know is that our manager is not getting this balance of the team right at present to achieve either flair play or being battlers for 90 mins, we are neither fish nor fowl, and the opposition must know they are going to have a field day against us at present.

Let's get back to basics, get hard to beat (especially at home) and hard working, which is where I think Yogi decided to bring in Dickoh and Grounds, and slowly try to get the confidence back into our squad to start playing the good stuff again.

Expecting Rain
21-09-2010, 10:20 AM
We have played 3 teams recently, St Mirren,Inverness and Hamilton, none of these teams were overtly physical but in the centre of midfield we are asking players to be what they are not, notably Miller and McBride, we are not looking for a battering ram in this area but more of a balance in terms of physicality and creativity, i believe that a disciplined Bamba would be a better option, competing in midfield isn`t always about taking your opponent out but knowing his strengths and weaknesses, knowing when to display a sense of urgency, cutting of his options, forcing him to do what he doesn`t want to do or if need be against a very good opponent, damage limitation, teams that play against us seem to be more than aware of this concept when playing against us, of course we want to see the team playing football and being relaxed enough in possession to entertain and be creative but off the ball we need to have a better shape and know when to show a sense of urgency, the coaching staff are responsible in implementing these factors.

Banff
21-09-2010, 10:48 AM
There was a £2.2m loss last year before player sales. The sales are a necessary evil.

Do we not sell to the OF if they are the only interested parties, and the player is soon to leave for nowt?

They are not a necessary evil as we keep getting told that 'we no longer need to sell'. Doesnt matter if we have a £2.2m loss as tghe loss will be far greater if we get relegated!

Also i do understand where you are coming from but the likes of Stokes wouldnt have left for nowt as he had 2 years left. As well as Stokes we have sold other players such as Kenny Miller, Andy Goram, Scott Brown, Steven Whittaker, Kevin Thomson, Ulrik Laursen, Didier Agathe, Gary Caldwell and Chris Killen and they are just to name a few. We are an OF feeder club, theres no other way to describe us as a selling club.

The other day i read in the paper, Yogi saying how he is so proud of our youth set-up and we are only a few years away from challenging the OF. Well sorry Yogi but we will NEVER challenge the OF as long as we keep selling to them. Although our youth set-up is good, we dont benefit from it and that East Mains training academy may as well have been built in Glasgow. The sooner the club realise this the better!

Iain G
21-09-2010, 10:50 AM
We have played 3 teams recently, St Mirren,Inverness and Hamilton, none of these teams were overtly physical but in the centre of midfield we are asking players to be what they are not, notably Miller and McBride, we are not looking for a battering ram in this area but more of a balance in terms of physicality and creativity, i believe that a disciplined Bamba would be a better option, competing in midfield isn`t always about taking your opponent out but knowing his strengths and weaknesses, knowing when to display a sense of urgency, cutting of his options, forcing him to do what he doesn`t want to do or if need be against a very good opponent, damage limitation, teams that play against us seem to be more than aware of this concept when playing against us, of course we want to see the team playing football and being relaxed enough in possession to entertain and be creative but off the ball we need to have a better shape and know when to show a sense of urgency, the coaching staff are responsible in implementing these factors.

Unlike our old friend Andy Goram, there is only one Sol Bamba, and we generally need him at the back as well as midfield, mind you with Dickoh in there, perhaps we now have someone who would allow Bamba back into the Matty Jack role, with possibly Hanlon, Murray or Grounds dropping into the centre defensive role.

Iain G
21-09-2010, 10:52 AM
They are not a necessary evil as we keep getting told that 'we no longer need to sell'. Doesnt matter if we have a £2.2m loss as tghe loss will be far greater if we get relegated!

Also i do understand where you are coming from but the likes of Stokes wouldnt have left for nowt as he had 2 years left. As well as Stokes we have sold other players such as Kenny Miller, Andy Goram, Scott Brown, Steven Whittaker, Kevin Thomson, Ulrik Laursen, Didier Agathe, Gary Caldwell and Chris Killen and they are just to name a few. We are an OF feeder club, theres no other way to describe us as a selling club.

The other day i read in the paper, Yogi saying how he is so proud of our youth set-up and we are only a few years away from challenging the OF. Well sorry Yogi but we will NEVER challenge the OF as long as we keep selling to them. Although our youth set-up is good, we dont benefit from it and that East Mains training academy may as well have been built in Glasgow. The sooner the club realise this the better!

The sooner our fans start to understand that East Mains is good for the longer term future of the club the better IMHO. Even Alex Ferguson has taken the time to notice and praise what we are doing with our youth players and identified it as the way forward for Scottish football.

MSK
21-09-2010, 10:54 AM
They are not a necessary evil as we keep getting told that 'we no longer need to sell'. Doesnt matter if we have a £2.2m loss as tghe loss will be far greater if we get relegated!

Also i do understand where you are coming from but the likes of Stokes wouldnt have left for nowt as he had 2 years left. As well as Stokes we have sold other players such as Kenny Miller, Andy Goram, Scott Brown, Steven Whittaker, Kevin Thomson, Ulrik Laursen, Didier Agathe, Gary Caldwell and Chris Killen and they are just to name a few. We are an OF feeder club, theres no other way to describe us as a selling club.

The other day i read in the paper, Yogi saying how he is so proud of our youth set-up and we are only a few years away from challenging the OF. Well sorry Yogi but we will NEVER challenge the OF as long as we keep selling to them. Although our youth set-up is good, we dont benefit from it and that East Mains training academy may as well have been built in Glasgow. The sooner the club realise this the better!East mains is not an Academy though ..it is a training centre, a quality training centre giving all players, senior and youth a modern facility to train in week in week out.

An academy is an entirely different facility altogether.

Cropley10
21-09-2010, 11:21 AM
The sooner our fans start to understand that East Mains is good for the longer term future of the club the better IMHO. Even Alex Ferguson has taken the time to notice and praise what we are doing with our youth players and identified it as the way forward for Scottish football.

This is becoming a(nother) myth though - the Yams are bringing through more youngsters than us now. Truehibernian highlights some of the U19s squad and their merits and where and how they play, it presents an interesting insight.

For me - now - one of Yogi's biggest failings is to keep playing certain players to the exclusion of our young players - apart from Hanlon and Wotherspoon (and the jury's now out on how well he's doing with them). I think we're ll prepared to give youngsters more support/time than some journeyman from wherever.

Without bringing though new, home-grown, talent we are well and truly in the brown stuff... if we should be making a fuss about anything it is this.

Iain G
21-09-2010, 11:27 AM
This is becoming a(nother) myth though .

Why is it a myth, we have our own training centre to allow development at all ages, its a long term strategy, not just short termism for the first team. You just need to look at Rangers (yeuch) and how long it took Murray Park to start generating good enough players for their first team. East Mains was a common sense investment in the long term good of Hibs :agree:

And the Yams have had their training centre (part time) a few years more than we have and it is generating first team capable youngsters for them now...

We farmed out most of what is classed as the "golden generation" of youngsters to lower league teams for regular football and it certainly helped push their careers along allright, especially with there being no reserve league anymore.

Anto the Hibernian
21-09-2010, 11:51 AM
There might just be a quite straightforward problem here.

How do you marry an attractive passing game with a belief that you have to fight for everything?

Aye, you win the battle first then play football but in practice, how does that work.

I think that is what as a team we are struggling with and it's a very difficult thing to coach. We don't have players just to set up from the start just to battle and fight, nor would I want the team to do that.

We expect the team to come out and pass the football and create chances. Presumably they are trying to do that and we can see that they are being quite careful in posession and are trying to play football they way they know how.

When you are dominating a game with ball and can't quite break teams down, how do these football players become battering rams?

I think as fans we need to decide if we actually want to try and have players that play a bit of football or whther we want to revert to a standard SPL side.

We are of course looking to have it all and Hughes has tried to add presence and a tougher mind set but at the same time we still want these players to be footballers. Trying to get a good mix of both costs a lot more than we have and so it's always going to be a difficult task that when it's not quite working makes us look a lot worse against your standard sides than you should.


Good post – this is something I have wondered these last few years.

My tuppence worth…

Bit in bold is the crux of this issue IMO. We constantly get spoon fed this (what is by and large a myth by the way) ‘flair’ idea, that we are somehow custodians of the great Hibernian tradition of not winning much but gaining the high ground through our playing style. I think incumbent managers get caught up in all this & feel compelled to try to build sides in keeping with this real/imagined tradition, now don’t get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see my side play with a certain style & flair, but I think those at the club are sometimes a bit to preoccupied with this & I too think we need to ask ourselves how we want the team to progress.

I would question ( like many others on here) if achieving this desired style of football is actually achievable on our budget & we wouldn’t be better served looking for more players ‘built for the SPL’. I would also question just how conjusive to tangible success this style of play is in the SPL, if you think of it our bread and butter games against the ‘bottom six’ & Hearts are often where we come unstuck, especially away from home, this is because by and large we get outfought & outmuscled – we need players to compete against the players of these teams. I don’t think its coincidence that often we see our best performances (from strictly footballing/passing point of view) against Motherwell & quite often against the old form i.e. teams that let us play. The problem of course if that these teams only represent a fraction of our opposition, and generally the old firms superior flair players will prevail anyway.

In terms of actual measures to redress this, as well as altering the signing policy somewhat, Hughes can try to instill a more SPL street wise approach, I think there is to much pre occupation with passing the ball, I think incumbent managers neglect the defense to much ( because Hibs fans don’t care about that remember !, why cant we just be hard to beat for a while ?), I don’t think we are currently looking physically fit enough & perhaps my biggest gripe….what’s the deal with set pieces ? indirect free kicks & corners are a good source of goals in the SPL for every team bar us it seems, we never seem to have enough threat from these areas and I believe this is at least partly due to successive managers mandate to sign certain types of players (generally ones who don’t attack the ball in the air it seems!)

Overall my conclusion is that Hughes has spent the first part of his tenure trying to coach the players & shape the team to play a way that they are not capable of IMO, or at least not if we want to remain competitive in the SPL over the course of a season, but in fairness to the manager I feel a great deal of the pressure to try and achieve this emanates from the Hibernian family itself..to me this is the mandate Hughes was given when Petrie gave him the job.

We fans do have a part to play in this, Petrie et all obviously are of the opinion that we are quite happy to be success starved as long as the team plays the ‘Hibs way’ (& he would quite rightly point to the attendances under Mowbray era as to how we lap this up) ….well I for one would welcome a more Pragmatic approach, although it pains me to say it, we only have to look across the road to see the difference a manager adopting an SPL savvy approach to shaping a team can make. Above all we all want Hibs to be competitive in the league we are in & order to do that we as a club really need to assess whether this pre occupation with flair players/style will get as there because i think it is definitely hindering the job Hughes is trying to do.

Cropley10
21-09-2010, 12:32 PM
Why is it a myth, we have our own training centre to allow development at all ages, its a long term strategy, not just short termism for the first team. You just need to look at Rangers (yeuch) and how long it took Murray Park to start generating good enough players for their first team. East Mains was a common sense investment in the long term good of Hibs :agree:

And the Yams have had their training centre (part time) a few years more than we have and it is generating first team capable youngsters for them now...

We farmed out most of what is classed as the "golden generation" of youngsters to lower league teams for regular football and it certainly helped push their careers along allright, especially with there being no reserve league anymore.

Iain - here's the link to the comments made by Truehibernian.

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?193065-View-from-afar-on-Yogis-comment&p=2582263&viewfull=1#post2582263

If we're not careful we'll go along the same lines as Rangers, who have been extremely reluctant to promote their youth players - although now it's an absolute necessity for them of course.

IWasThere2016
21-09-2010, 01:02 PM
Yes a concern and yes a reason for change but disagree that its a change of manager that is needed.

If people succeed in getting the manager changed we'll see just how often we have to go through all this again.

So how long does he get/need/deserve Andy?

ahibby
21-09-2010, 01:57 PM
I am not saying the OP is wrong with his assessment of what Yogi wants but we can't ignore what the opposition wants to do. I noticed for example their No 7 was intent on puting Mike Hart under pressure whenever he got the ball around our box. That looked like he was following instructions. Their forward players were good enough to put our defenders under pressure when we had possession. Can we say the same about our boys? I suppose I judge Yogi by what other coaches can get from their players. I thought Billy Reid got his approach with the players he has, right, and I'm still not sure about Yogis approach with the players he has. Too few times we won the second ball, especially in our own half in the second half. The game isn't just about what you do with the ball but what you do when you don't. I thought it was embarrassing that we couldn't get the ball out of our own half for a lot of the second period. If our defenders cleared it our midfield couldn't win it in midfield and our midfield dropped further and further back. When our midfield cleared it our forwards couldn't win it. Just hopeless.

Iain G
21-09-2010, 07:17 PM
Perhaps it is very basic?

Yogi needs to play in a way that suits the players we have, not try to get the players we have to play in a way that doesn't suit them.

IWasThere2016
21-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Andy - we are a standard SPL side and that's the issue - we should be better than that and better than

St Mirren 1-0 Hibs
Hibs 1-1 ICT
Hibs 1-1 Accies

The above is arguably below SPL standard and not far off relegation form. Given the resources at his disposal this should and will cost the manager his job IMHO.

Danderhall Hibs
21-09-2010, 09:23 PM
Andy - we are a standard SPL side and that's the issue - we should be better than that and better than

St Mirren 1-0 Hibs
Hibs 1-1 ICT
Hibs 1-1 Accies

The above is arguably below SPL standard and not far off relegation form. Given the resources at his disposal this should and will cost the manager his job IMHO.

What are the local papers saying about Dundee United up your way TQM? Presumably due to their near relegation form, Houstons coat's on a shoogly peg as well?

Banff
21-09-2010, 09:27 PM
The sooner our fans start to understand that East Mains is good for the longer term future of the club the better IMHO. Even Alex Ferguson has taken the time to notice and praise what we are doing with our youth players and identified it as the way forward for Scottish football.

Never. Its good for the longer term future of the OF.

Banff
21-09-2010, 09:43 PM
East mains is not an Academy though ..it is a training centre, a quality training centre giving all players, senior and youth a modern facility to train in week in week out.

An academy is an entirely different facility altogether.

East Mains is not a Centre though.. it is a training complex, a quality training complex giving all players, senior and youth a modern facility to train in week in week out until they join Celtic or Rangers.

P.S. what is an academy then? I always thought it was somewhere where you learn... which East Mains is.

Sammy7nil
21-09-2010, 10:02 PM
Your bit about De Graaf is spot on, i remember talking to a Celtic fan about Robbie Keane, time and time again he was made to look like a numpty simply because he was 2 or 3 passes ahead of his team mates, running to positions where he THOUGHT the ball would be coming, only to find that it didn't, or making passes to where he thought a player would be only to find that they weren't.

De Graaf will be good when his team mates catch up with him.

Great posts by the way,
:top marks


This really makes me laugh out loud. If he is that good just slow down. If he does think that quick how did he miss against Rangers ?

You can go 40 minutes at a time not knowing he is on the pitch he must be thinking so quick I cant see him.

He looks slow, does not tackle, does not get box to box, does not hold on to the ball, has not made killer passes I really fail to see what his role is and I think he does too.

Lots peeps on here trying to be clever saying he is too good for our players and thinks way ahead of them. Lets get one thing straight Kenny Dagleish got this when playing for Scotland pundits saying he was too quick thinking for his team mates, Mr Ed is no Kenny Dagleish. He is a dutch boy lost in Edinburgh lets hope he finds himself soon.

Caversham Green
22-09-2010, 07:32 AM
Never. Its good for the longer term future of the OF.

How many players have we developed at East Mains then sold to the OF?

matty_f
22-09-2010, 08:47 AM
How many players have we developed at East Mains then sold to the OF?

We will develop players and move them onto the OF though, and that's pretty much how it will always be unless something significant happens to alter the whole set-up of Scottish football.

If it's not the OF, it'll be someone else. We need to deal with it.

Let's face it, Hibernian is unlikely to be the dream choice of all but a handful of players to see out their careers. Truth be told, we need to have players who want to develop at East Mains and then move on to bigger things, at least in the short - mid term (transfer fees and add-ons slowly empowering the club to keep players for a bit longer each time).

Without that set-up, we get good players happy to coast along in very comfortable surroundings, on good wages, while we tear our hair out watching them not give a toss on the pitch of a Saturday afternoon...

Caversham Green
22-09-2010, 09:15 AM
We will develop players and move them onto the OF though, and that's pretty much how it will always be unless something significant happens to alter the whole set-up of Scottish football.

If it's not the OF, it'll be someone else. We need to deal with it.

Let's face it, Hibernian is unlikely to be the dream choice of all but a handful of players to see out their careers. Truth be told, we need to have players who want to develop at East Mains and then move on to bigger things, at least in the short - mid term (transfer fees and add-ons slowly empowering the club to keep players for a bit longer each time).

Without that set-up, we get good players happy to coast along in very comfortable surroundings, on good wages, while we tear our hair out watching them not give a toss on the pitch of a Saturday afternoon...

No doubt we will, but there's a tendency on here to get annoyed about things that haven't actually happened. A lot of people were flaming when we sold Fletcher to the OF in January 2008 - then we went and sold him to them again in July 08 and January 09, before he went to Burnley in July 09.

The drama queen approach - "built for the benefit of the OF" etc - just gets on my thrupnies.

Peevemor
22-09-2010, 09:19 AM
No doubt we will, but there's a tendency on here to get annoyed about things that haven't actually happened. A lot of people were flaming when we sold Fletcher to the OF in January 2008 - then we went and sold him to them again in July 08 and January 09, before he went to Burnley in July 09.

The drama queen approach - "built for the benefit of the OF" etc - just gets on my thrupnies.

:agree: Spot on.

khib70
22-09-2010, 09:49 AM
No doubt we will, but there's a tendency on here to get annoyed about things that haven't actually happened. A lot of people were flaming when we sold Fletcher to the OF in January 2008 - then we went and sold him to them again in July 08 and January 09, before he went to Burnley in July 09.

The drama queen approach - "built for the benefit of the OF" etc - just gets on my thrupnies.
:agree:Couldn't agree more. Although the cheerleading drama queen is a much more annoying variety. The ones who try to get brownie points by starting threads entitled "Let's all get behind the team ......". Wow, fifty years supporting the Hibs and I never thought of that. Aren't you a clever little attention seeker.

These threads invevitably demand unflinching support for every player, regardless of their ability or committment, plus total loyalty to whoever happens to be sitting in the manager's chair -especially if he's " a good Hibbie". It all reminds me of the mindlessness of the US far right who used to race to brand criticism of President Bush or his policies as "unpatriotic".

You can love the club to death and still be critical of inadequate players and floundering managers. In fact, it's because we love the club to death that we are so critical. Some of us even boo (shame shame!) because we resent the depths to which incompetent management and poor players have taken our club. That doesn't justify being called a "disgrace" by some teenage cheerleader.

I know "I pays my money" is a cliche, but if you're forking out £400 annually for a season ticket, and you haven't seen a home win for six months, you're entitled to be a wee bit miffed.

We need a better manager and investment in the playing squad. We needed them before we needed a new stand. All that the present set up is going to yield for the club is the dubious joys of having the best stadium in the First Division.

That's not what any of us want. But the first step to solving any problem is to recognise that there is a problem. And singing songs in praise of the Emperor's new clothes is not going down the right road at all.

matty_f
22-09-2010, 09:51 AM
No doubt we will, but there's a tendency on here to get annoyed about things that haven't actually happened. A lot of people were flaming when we sold Fletcher to the OF in January 2008 - then we went and sold him to them again in July 08 and January 09, before he went to Burnley in July 09.

The drama queen approach - "built for the benefit of the OF" etc - just gets on my thrupnies.

:agree: Yep, agree with that.

Caversham Green
22-09-2010, 11:59 AM
:agree:Couldn't agree more. Although the cheerleading drama queen is a much more annoying variety. The ones who try to get brownie points by starting threads entitled "Let's all get behind the team ......". Wow, fifty years supporting the Hibs and I never thought of that. Aren't you a clever little attention seeker.

These threads invevitably demand unflinching support for every player, regardless of their ability or committment, plus total loyalty to whoever happens to be sitting in the manager's chair -especially if he's " a good Hibbie". It all reminds me of the mindlessness of the US far right who used to race to brand criticism of President Bush or his policies as "unpatriotic".

You can love the club to death and still be critical of inadequate players and floundering managers. In fact, it's because we love the club to death that we are so critical. Some of us even boo (shame shame!) because we resent the depths to which incompetent management and poor players have taken our club. That doesn't justify being called a "disgrace" by some teenage cheerleader.

I know "I pays my money" is a cliche, but if you're forking out £400 annually for a season ticket, and you haven't seen a home win for six months, you're entitled to be a wee bit miffed.

We need a better manager and investment in the playing squad. We needed them before we needed a new stand. All that the present set up is going to yield for the club is the dubious joys of having the best stadium in the First Division.

That's not what any of us want. But the first step to solving any problem is to recognise that there is a problem. And singing songs in praise of the Emperor's new clothes is not going down the right road at all.

And yet you've got us relegated five games into the season. Elsewhere on the forum Yogi's been sacked because he hasn't had a win in the next n games.

From this distance what I'm seeing is a large section of the fans disconnecting themselves from the club and producing hostility to every aspect of the club - players, management, board, even the friggin' buildings are getting it. I feel it's probably a product of our accountant-heavy (and consequently PR-shy) board, underachievement in recent years and high turnover of managers and players. Regardless of the causes it's doing no-one any good.

I guess the question to ask is: Do you see yourself as an integral part of the club or just a paying customer demanding to be entertained? If it's the latter - fill your boo(t)s. If it's the former - would you as a player tell your team-mates they were pish before they'd even kicked a ball? If the game was going badly would you give up or get stuck in to try and improve things? Apart from paying their money, the fans can only do one thing to help the team along and they don't seem to be doing that very well at the moment.

I don't think anyone thinks things are rosy just now, but constant negativity from the fans can only make them worse.

cockneymike
22-09-2010, 05:07 PM
Going back to the thrust of this thread; I think a few good points that I'd agree with have been made.

It seems to me that the problem is cyclical.

If you start with the board, such is their fear of debt, that they have a very strict signing policy regards wages and fees. The wages thing i'm relaxed with, as that's a recurring cost, but not paying fees, limits the number of people you can sign. If you assume a standard contract of a decent player is 3 years long that means that every year only 33% of decent players are available out of contract, and therefore 67% of decent players are not available to us. So we are totally reducing our possible signing pool - and this is of a limited group anyway that would actually be the right quality, and the right wages that would improve us.

Because of the signing policy that attracts only a certain type of manager, typically inexperienced, or from a lower level (when did Hibs ever get a manager that had coached a better team than Hibs in their past?)

The next stage is that because of the limited players and the limited manager, we are by odds likely to get a limited set of results - occasionally we'll do better, but consistently we'll underperform as the players we sign, are unlikely to be the best at their price range, (because most of the players at that price range will be signed when in contract).

The next stage is that the indifferent results leads to unhappy punters deciding not to go, thereby reducing cash flow; and kicking in the fear of debt that the board has, leading them to rethink the managers position.

And so the cycle begins again.....

Potential solutions:
1. The board grow a pair, broaden their signings policy. Spending a fee does not need to be wasted money, it can be as much an investment as a building a stand (something that I'm very glad we did). The 50k on Bamba, and the 250k on Zemmama has been money well spent. They are the last fees that i can think of that the club publicised.

2. I think that the board have to not bow to supporters wishes, as its about time the fans STOPPED getting their way, I think that there are players at the club that now feel that their tenure is likely to be far longer than that of the manager at ER. That means have the courage to back a manager and give him the time to make it work. 18 months isn't enough time in my opinion.

3. Point 2 would be helped by them actually trying to get an experienced manager that has actually done well somewhere, but for whatever is out of work, in in the first place. eg. Mark McGhee, Craig Brown at Motherwell (i'm not wanting either of them, but they have been good hires) Levein at Utd.

Final thought, perhaps the board realise this and that they will back a manager now. Especially since the infrastructure is complete....

ScottB
22-09-2010, 06:19 PM
Good post Speedway.

What do you do? You give the manager the time to empty those who won't/can't stick to his plan.

I know we'll get the "he's had three transfer windows" response, but maybe it just takes longer than that.

Aren't the majority of our starting line up Hughes players?

I do agree with the OP however, that there is something very wrong at the club. since the Collins revolt, under two different managers, players have appeared disinterested and unfit, despite our much vaunted training facility.

To me it suggests there is a problem with the culture at the club. Perhaps it's a result of the players beating Collins when he tried to enforce his views onto them, I don't know.

But then blame has to switch towards Hughes, if there is something wrong, he should be smashing heads together and punting folk out the door, not coming out with his usual 'I can't fault the boys, they try 110% since I got here, they just need a cuddle' crap.

Perhaps there needs to be a sea change at the club, ditch the manager, bring in a new team to lay down the law and show the door to anyone who kicks up a fuss.

Arch Stanton
22-09-2010, 06:35 PM
And yet you've got us relegated five games into the season. Elsewhere on the forum Yogi's been sacked because he hasn't had a win in the next n games.

From this distance what I'm seeing is a large section of the fans disconnecting themselves from the club and producing hostility to every aspect of the club - players, management, board, even the friggin' buildings are getting it. I feel it's probably a product of our accountant-heavy (and consequently PR-shy) board, underachievement in recent years and high turnover of managers and players. Regardless of the causes it's doing no-one any good.

I guess the question to ask is: Do you see yourself as an integral part of the club or just a paying customer demanding to be entertained? If it's the latter - fill your boo(t)s. If it's the former - would you as a player tell your team-mates they were pish before they'd even kicked a ball? If the game was going badly would you give up or get stuck in to try and improve things? Apart from paying their money, the fans can only do one thing to help the team along and they don't seem to be doing that very well at the moment.

I don't think anyone thinks things are rosy just now, but constant negativity from the fans can only make them worse.

Oh dear,oh dear - I dont think I've ever read such a pompous and stupid reply.

Try to make your your replies more intelligible please.

IWasThere2016
22-09-2010, 09:44 PM
What are the local papers saying about Dundee United up your way TQM? Presumably due to their near relegation form, Houstons coat's on a shoogly peg as well?

:faf: No idea - but I'd guess they would be if the Arabs had the worst home run in their history and were out of two cups by the last week in September. Just guessing though :cool2:

Danderhall Hibs
22-09-2010, 10:00 PM
:faf: No idea - but I'd guess they would be if the Arabs had the worst home run in their history and were out of two cups by the last week in September. Just guessing though :cool2:

TBF they're below us in the league and out of one cup by the last week in September and they got pumped 4-0 off of ICT. I'd have thought the fans will turn on him very soon.

IWasThere2016
22-09-2010, 10:26 PM
He won the SC - and they finished third. I haven't read/heard any noises about him tbh. Bizarrely, an Arab said to me he couldn't get excited about this season as they'd achieved so much last season and he cannot see a repeat! Crazy!

Danderhall Hibs
22-09-2010, 10:33 PM
He won the SC - and they finished third.

With Levein's team. :wink:

IWasThere2016
22-09-2010, 10:35 PM
With a loanee leader - who was a class apart for them too :wink:

sesoim
22-09-2010, 11:18 PM
Good post Speedway.

What do you do? You give the manager the time to empty those who won't/can't stick to his plan.

I know we'll get the "he's had three transfer windows" response, but maybe it just takes longer than that.


A good manager should be a bit of a psychologist because it is important to work out players' mindsets before you decide to sign them. Alex Ferguson is a good example of this - individually a lot of players he has at the moment aren't that great yet he still knows how to construct a team that will work together and win games.

If players aren't listening to Hughes (and he signed most of them), then he has to take the blame for not sussing them out before signing them.

greenlex
23-09-2010, 01:47 AM
Oh dear,oh dear - I dont think I've ever read such a pompous and stupid reply.

Try to make your your replies more intelligible please.

One mans wine is anothers poison.

MoantheCabbage
23-09-2010, 07:12 AM
I understand everyone's frustration currently surrounding the manager and of course how we are playing which I agree is simply not good enough.

My worry is that if Yogi goes, which is looking likely. Will our new manager inherite the same problems that JC had, Mixu had and now Yogi. It seems to me that although the buck is eventually stopping with the manager it seems that there is more deep routed problems within the club.

I have no idea what's goin on with Hibs but I do know that we cant keep changing managers on a yearly basis as its not healthy for the club, players, staff and of course the fans.

Yogi did get one thing right. The fans do have too high an expectation. We have had plenty laughs at our neighbours in regards to their expectations so why are ours so high?

We have sorted out our infrastructure and I fully expect the board to start spreading our money down to the team and let the fans enjoy success. Although this will never ever come unless we are prepared to back the manager to the hilt through the good and the bad and not just when thing are going the way we want them.

Caversham Green
23-09-2010, 07:42 AM
Oh dear,oh dear - I dont think I've ever read such a pompous and stupid reply.

Try to make your your replies more intelligible please.

I don't think I've ever read such an empty-headed and meaningless response.