"We will now turn our efforts .... increasing...attendances" Scott Lindsay.

[smurf]

The excellent poster wee162 over on the Bounce made a great point recently in saying that because of the greater supply in respect of capacity at ER, it is going to more than likely dillute the demand, because more than likely a seat is always going to be available.

In an ideal world it would have been much better to extend and improve the stadium at a time of a growing average.

But we've done so at a time of a declining average.

Therefore, i'm delighted that the club through Scott Lindsay has stated alongside our financial statement the objective of increasing attendances at the stadium. By stating "We will now turn our efforts..." i would imagine that a plan and strategy is in place and i am intrigued as to what that is going to be.

Because it isn't going to be easy.

The simplest solution is to improve the product on the park. And the bottom line truth is that at the moment it is poor.

Reading between the lines i think it is significant that Scott Lindsay has said this alongside his comments, exclusive only to Hibernian TV subscibers, along the lines of "..we will at all times take the tough decisions required in the best interests of Hibernian Football Club".

It suggests to me that they feel things should be better on the park than it is. It suggests to me that at boardroom level they feel a budget is being provided to the manager in order to have a product on the park better than it is, but more importantly, one that stimulates greater demand to see it in the stadium.

IF this is their opinion then i'm inclined to agree. But it's going to need more than that to get increased attendances at ER unless overnight we discover genuinely entertaining winning football....

Why? Because in my own current experience i know many more supporters currently going as Season Ticket holders or walk-ups, who are going currently somewhat reluctantly, through absolute loyalty, than i do current stay aways who are anywhere near being persuaded to return to the fold.

In the past two years we've lost around 2500 from our average. No doubt this will in part be down to the economic environment. But IMHO its down in the main to the opinion of them doubting any club ambition and aspiration. Down to a poor product on the park served up from Mixu and then Hughes. Down to the belief of the prices being excessive against part of that or indeed all of that.

My opinion is that as things stand (being a realist and not just negative just for the sheer hell of it) there is more of a risk of a further reduction in numbers. Morale within those currently going is low. The product is poor. There's a perception (rightly or wrongly) that aside from capital infrastructure there's no real genuine aspiration from our board for success on the park (selling Stokes with no replacement etc). So IMO there's still an element of 'soft' support within our current average that we could lose. Then there's an economic environment that will soon see - particularly in public service - job losses....

So i find this statement from Scott Lindsay the right thing to say but also a brave one. Because the challenge may well be to preserve what we currently have.

And then look to grow....

[Spudster]

Worrying thing is "(Those) who are going currently somewhat reluctantly, through absolute loyalty". The next generation will have no loyalty as they get so much decent telly on the box. They only way round it is Summer football when the kids don't have anything else on the box, this is not up to us obviously.
IMO the stadium should be full EVERY week, if that means drastically lowering the prices for all or kids for free so be it.

[Andy74]

I must be missing something about when Hibs last regulalry had averages of about 17,000.

The way it's being discussed we've suddenly lost 2,500 fans that we used to have coming regulalry, and that thsi is isolated to us.


Averages now are as high as I can recall in recent time watching Hibs. We may have had a wee spike in 2007 but you can't really argue that this was the norm and we are now losing people.

Has anyone concened that hibs are lsing punters done anyhting to compare how we are doing as a % of what other clubs are showing over say the last 10 years?

Wasn't too long we were hearing that we needed 11,000 was it to break even and it seemed a long way off.

[matty_f]

I think there is scope for the board to do more to get people to come along to Easter Road, and I agree that at times the £22-£27 admission fee doesn't represent good value because of the standard on the pitch (and not just from Hibs, I'd like to point out, but from pretty much every team that comes to Easter Road.)

However, the prices as they are still left a wages/income ration of 68% - 8% higher than the recommended benchmark of 60%.

This means that the board don't really have much scope to reduce prices in the short term until such a time that more people turn up regularly.

The quickest win in it all, is for folk to be prepared to put aside the fact that for a while at least they'll be paying over the odds for the return that they get, trust that the board will use the money to back the manager to improve the team, and get of their erses and get down to Easter Road in numbers as often as possible to support the club.

Hibs don't have a mass audience. They need to generate as much revenue from a concentrated customer base as possible, while looking to grow that base.

That means, fundamentally, that unless we as fans are prepared to put our hands in our pocket to the benefit of the club, then things will almost always be as they are now.

It's as much down to us as it is the board.

[smurf]

I must be missing something about when Hibs last regulalry had averages of about 17,000.

The way it's being discussed we've suddenly lost 2,500 fans that we used to have coming regulalry, and that thsi is isolated to us.


Averages now are as high as I can recall in recent time watching Hibs. We may have had a wee spike in 2007 but you can't really argue that this was the norm and we are now losing people.

Has anyone concened that hibs are lsing punters done anyhting to compare how we are doing as a % of what other clubs are showing over say the last 10 years?

Wasn't too long we were hearing that we needed 11,000 was it to break even and it seemed a long way off.

We would have been at the 17,000 you quoted if we were at 15,000 today.:wink:

Not so long ago we had an average of 14,000+ (season 2006-2007 IIRC).

Now it's 2000 less. There has been a three year trend... downwards.

[bawheid]

We would have been at the 17,000 you quoted if we were at 15,000 today.:wink:

Not so long ago we had an average of 14,000+ (season 2006-2007 IIRC).

Now it's 2000 less. There has been a three year trend... downwards.

Yeah but throughout the 90s and early 00s the average was about 8/9/10k. I don't recall you lauding the board for their amazing stewardship during the bumper 06/07 season...

[smurf]

I don't recall you lauding the board for their amazing stewardship during the bumper 06/07 season...

What exactly is your point? :confused:

I assume you are just presuming i am being critical of the board in the OP?

Because FYI i aint. On the contrary.:wink:

[The_Horde]

I was speaking to a yam last week. Although i could hardly hear what he was saying, what i did make out was that he doesnae go to the games anymore and the reason for this is that 3-4 years ago he was paying the same price for his season ticket when the yams were paying wages of like 10k a week as he is paying now (players wages have apparently dropped to around half of that) and that it is no longer value for money.

Could the same be said about Hibs? our current prices are from 2007. This is the year we won the CIS and had players like Whitty, Brown, Murphy and Fletcher in the squad. Compare them with players like Nish, Rankin, Mcbride etc..

[bawheid]

What exactly is your point? :confused:

I assume you are just presuming i am being critical of the board in the OP?

Because FYI i aint. On the contrary.:wink:

Your OP was typically negative smurf.

Your starting point appears to be that we've "lost" 2000 fans since 06/07 and that this is due to poor footballing performance and a perception that the board don't care about results on the park. Every strategic statement the board make, they make clear that their aim is to get the best team on the park possible. If that wasn't their aim why build a training complex?

You fail to recognise that 06/07 was most likely a 30 year high in terms of average attendance. Do the board get credit for "finding" 4/5,000 fans in the years leading up to 06/07?

As has been discussed on other threads, football attendance is not an exact science and spending vast sums on the squad does not necessarily lead to the "sold out" signs up around Easter Road. Latapy and Sauzee regularly played to crowds of 9,000ish.

All the board can do is put in place conditions to maximise attendances. A good stadium, providing as much money to the manager as is possible, marketing the club in the right ways. They're not perfect, but they're doing a good job IMO.

[bawheid]

;2572020']I was speaking to a yam last week. Although i could hardly hear what he was saying, what i did make out was that he doesnae go to the games anymore and the reason for this is that 3-4 years ago he was paying the same price for his season ticket when the yams were paying wages of like 10k a week as he is paying now (players wages have apparently dropped to around half of that) and that it is no longer value for money.

Could the same be said about Hibs? our current prices are from 2007. This is the year we won the CIS and had players like Whitty, Brown, Murphy and Fletcher in the squad. Compare them with players like Nish, Rankin, Mcbride etc..

Firstly, well done speaking to the yam. I'm not particularly in favour of these care in the community schemes, but you should feel proud that you've done your bit.

Whitty, Brown and Fletcher came through the youth system and were paid "peanuts" in 2007. Murphy was a cracking find from Mowbray. These guys weren't on megabucks. This is the model Hughes will be expected to follow.

What the yam is complaining about is that at that time they were paying Gordon £18k per week, etc. Now they're scrambling about in the petty cash tin for £1 for a lightbulb.

[Aubenas]

Hibs don't have a mass audience. They need to generate as much revenue from a concentrated customer base as possible, while looking to grow that base.

That means, fundamentally, that unless we as fans are prepared to put our hands in our pocket to the benefit of the club, then things will almost always be as they are now.

It's as much down to us as it is the board.

:top marks:top marks:top marks
Absolutely Matty. Total sense. No other point of view comes near. It's bleedin obvious!:agree:

[WindyMiller]

Firstly, well done speaking to the yam. I'm not particularly in favour of these care in the community schemes, but you should feel proud that you've done your bit.

Whitty, Brown and Fletcher came through the youth system and were paid "peanuts" in 2007. Murphy was a cracking find from Mowbray. These guys weren't on megabucks. This is the model Hughes will be expected to follow.

What the yam is complaining about is that at that time they were paying Gordon £18k per week, etc. Now they're scrambling about in the petty cash tin
.



Aye, but it was a 100w bulb not just a 40w.

[smurf]

Your OP was typically negative smurf.

Your starting point appears to be that we've "lost" 2000 fans since 06/07 and that this is due to poor footballing performance and a perception that the board don't care about results on the park. Every strategic statement the board make, they make clear that their aim is to get the best team on the park possible. If that wasn't their aim why build a training complex?

You fail to recognise that 06/07 was most likely a 30 year high in terms of average attendance. Do the board get credit for "finding" 4/5,000 fans in the years leading up to 06/07?

As has been discussed on other threads, football attendance is not an exact science and spending vast sums on the squad does not necessarily lead to the "sold out" signs up around Easter Road. Latapy and Sauzee regularly played to crowds of 9,000ish.

All the board can do is put in place conditions to maximise attendances. A good stadium, providing as much money to the manager as is possible, marketing the club in the right ways. They're not perfect, but they're doing a good job IMO.

I don't see how its negative. Attendances are falling. That's a fact and rightly the board are looking to grow them. All i've suggested is that the current trend will be hard to turnaround.

You are quite deliberately choosing for whatever reason to attempt to try and turn this thread into a defence of the board based on the absolute misconception that the OP is an attack on the board. I've stated that it isn't and i don't see how you could arrive at the conclusion that you have.

If you are of an opinion that there isn't a risk of our support base following further then i find such complacency staggering. Thankfully i've no doubt that our board of directors have no such complacency.

Latapy and Sauzee in front of an average of 9,000? Never.

Who said they were not doing a good job? They've stated an objective of growing attendances. Excellent IMO. The FACTS are though that they are following. You only need to visit here or anywhere else in Hibs cyber space to come to the conclusion that a lot of our support is currently unhappy. There is IMHO a genuine risk of further falls in attendances.

That the club is looking to grow attendances is to be congratulated. I look forward to their strategy and thank the lord they are not as complacent as you my friend.:greengrin

[bawheid]

If you are of an opinion that there isn't a risk of our support base following further then i find such complacency staggering. Thankfully i've no doubt that our board of directors have no such complacency.

That the club is looking to grow attendances is to be congratulated. I look forward to their strategy and thank the lord they are not as complacent as you my friend.

Where have I said this?

[basehibby]

The excellent poster wee162 over on the Bounce made a great point recently in saying that because of the greater supply in respect of capacity at ER, it is going to more than likely dillute the demand, because more than likely a seat is always going to be available.

In an ideal world it would have been much better to extend and improve the stadium at a time of a growing average.

But we've done so at a time of a declining average.

....

Great post - but I think the reasoning behind the timing of the East Stand build had more to do with the decline in the cost of Steel etc. than the prevailing trends at the gate. In that respect the conditions could scarcely have been more favourable - I don't know the details but I suspect that the final bill will have been substantially less than it would have been a year or two before.

You still make a good point though - times are tough for many fans and it will take something pretty special on the field of play to buck the current national trend of declining attendances.

[jakki]

There will be 2 full paying fans at ER on Saturday because Fife Hyland took time to find me secure parking for my mobility scooter. My carer and I have not been able to attend ER for over 2 years.I am not on DLA and thus couldn't get a wheelchair place.

This is just one instance of them trying to get more fans at matches.
Thank you Mr Hyland :thumbsup:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

When we went into the first division, did we not end up that season as the fifth best supported team in Scotland [ by a distance] and that was without two visits each from the O/F and Hearts. Sure I can remember a sell out for an X-Mas/New Year game against Ayr United? Punters will turn up to watch a winning team. Seemples. I think that other sides have used the rationale that if you get 5,000 paying £20 a head, you would automatically get 10,000 if you lowered it to £10 [ and all the spin-offs]. Not sure that works though.

[Mikey]

Hibs don't have a mass audience. They need to generate as much revenue from a concentrated customer base as possible, while looking to grow that base.

That means, fundamentally, that unless we as fans are prepared to put our hands in our pocket to the benefit of the club, then things will almost always be as they are now.

It's as much down to us as it is the board.

Spot on. But the persistent negative rhetoric from a small (but very noisy) minority is definitely turning people off.

When the hard of thinking are constantly reading about how bad things are it's bound to have an affect.

[Barney McGrew]

When we went into the first division, did we not end up that season as the fifth best supported team in Scotland [ by a distance] and that was without two visits each from the O/F and Hearts. Sure I can remember a sell out for an X-Mas/New Year game against Ayr United? Punters will turn up to watch a winning team. Seemples

The Ayr game you're thinking of was on Boxing Day 1998, the crowd was 14106. That was our second biggest crowd that season (the biggest being the final home game against Falkirk which was still well short of capacity) IIRC, we had very few 10k plus attendances that season, despite us hammering teams week in week out.


Latapy and Sauzee in front of an average of 9,000? Never.

It wasn't quite that low, but our home crowds hovered around the 10-11k mark for the following season back in the SPL (1999-2000) bar the OF and derby matches. We has several games where the crowd was less than 10k.

Although we had some outstanding players back then, the crowds were lower than what we get now, despite the cost of going to the game being much lower then too.

[GreenPJ]

:top marks:top marks:top marks
Absolutely Matty. Total sense. No other point of view comes near. It's bleedin obvious!:agree:

Football clubs will have fans (we will call them diehards for want of a better name) who always buy a season ticket or turn up at the gate and buy merchandise because that is the club they love through thick or thin. Other fans need to be persuaded to part with cash to go to games/buy merchandise.

It is the board's responsibility to do everything they can to encourage people to do that. There will always be some things that are outwith their control (economic climate, overall state of Scottish football) but there are issues such as manager selection and ticket pricing that are in the control of the club to do what they feel is right to generate as much interest as possible and make fans part with cash.

[Wilson]

Spot on. But the persistent negative rhetoric from a small (but very noisy) minority is definitely turning people off.

When the hard of thinking are constantly reading about how bad things are it's bound to have an affect.

That is a line you keep pushing. Perhaps it does have some contributory affect but it must pale in comparison to the consistently poor performances and results we have endured for a good while. Folk have access to an extensive coverage of the games and are able to make up their own minds. Only the hardcore will pay to see a team in poor form. The product is simply not good enough to entice the rest to part with their hard earned.

[hibs0666]

The excellent poster wee162 over on the Bounce made a great point recently in saying that because of the greater supply in respect of capacity at ER, it is going to more than likely dillute the demand, because more than likely a seat is always going to be available.


So a punter thinks "I fancy going to see the Hibs today but, no, I'll give it a miss cos there's more seats down there this season than there was last season." :confused:

[Ray_]

:top marks:top marks:top marks
Absolutely Matty. Total sense. No other point of view comes near. It's bleedin obvious!:agree:

The only problem with that is that the hard core fan base is not much more than the club get now, therefore it is the new regular's that the club need to attract & they, unlike the hard core, are not the ones who will just regard hibs as a charity case & pay up regardless of what's on offer, therefore it is very very unlikely to be a solution.

[smurf]

So a punter thinks "I fancy going to see the Hibs today but, no, I'll give it a miss cos there's more seats down there this season than there was last season." :confused:

No. However, a few seasons back you kind of needed a season ticket to gurantee your seat for a visit from the Yams, Celtc or Scotland's Shame.

The reality now is that you are more or less guaranteed a seat as a walk-up for all fixtures. Therefore the incentive to purchase season tickets outwith the hardcore has slightly diminished.

[Ray_]

Spot on. But the persistent negative rhetoric from a small (but very noisy) minority is definitely turning people off.

When the hard of thinking are constantly reading about how bad things are it's bound to have an affect.


Mikey, are you saying that little things like our home form over the last six months are not making a bigger impact in the negative rhetoric that surround hibs?

[smurf]

I think there is scope for the board to do more to get people to come along to Easter Road, and I agree that at times the £22-£27 admission fee doesn't represent good value because of the standard on the pitch (and not just from Hibs, I'd like to point out, but from pretty much every team that comes to Easter Road.)

However, the prices as they are still left a wages/income ration of 68% - 8% higher than the recommended benchmark of 60%.

This means that the board don't really have much scope to reduce prices in the short term until such a time that more people turn up regularly.

The quickest win in it all, is for folk to be prepared to put aside the fact that for a while at least they'll be paying over the odds for the return that they get, trust that the board will use the money to back the manager to improve the team, and get of their erses and get down to Easter Road in numbers as often as possible to support the club.

Hibs don't have a mass audience. They need to generate as much revenue from a concentrated customer base as possible, while looking to grow that base.

That means, fundamentally, that unless we as fans are prepared to put our hands in our pocket to the benefit of the club, then things will almost always be as they are now.

It's as much down to us as it is the board.

I would agree 100%. And it's IMHO more down to us than the board.

However, our problem IMO is this;

We have 6000 absolute hardcore fans who will always through walk-up or Season Ticket be at Easter Road. (I base this figure on a maybe dated mid 1980's times are grim period...)

In addition we have another 3000 who are almost there or thereabouts.

That takes us to 9000 that was our average in 1998-1999 in our 'Great adventure'.

Then we have IMHO another 5000 need to be persuaded.

I think 14,000 is us almost at our full potential and we reached that in the Tony Mowbray-John Collins period.

So IMO we have 3 categories;

Hardcore
There or thereabouts
Need to be persuaded

At the moment IMO we are having very little joy with the Need to be persuaded. And i honestly believe we are treading dangerous water with a worrying small number of the There or thereabouts.

Just my honest opinion based on folk i know and speak to and 30 years going to ER.

[hibs0666]

No. However, a few seasons back you kind of needed a season ticket to gurantee your seat for a visit from the Yams, Celtc or Scotland's Shame.

I don't believe that has been the case for decades.

[degenerated]

We would have been at the 17,000 you quoted if we were at 15,000 today.:wink:

Not so long ago we had an average of 14,000+ (season 2006-2007 IIRC).

Now it's 2000 less. There has been a three year trend... downwards.

there's also been a recession that first hit in late 2007, perhaps there's a correlation?

[The_Todd]

there's also been a recession that first hit in late 2007, perhaps there's a correlation?

No, our falling attendances are definitely to do with increased capacity. Hearts attendance has dropped to around 15k since opening their 50,000 stand.

[smurf]

I don't believe that has been the case for decades.

Check how many fixtures sold out season 2006-2007.

[sahib]

I would agree 100%. And it's IMHO more down to us than the board.

However, our problem IMO is this;

We have 6000 absolute hardcore fans who will always through walk-up or Season Ticket be at Easter Road. (I base this figure on a maybe dated mid 1980's times are grim period...)

In addition we have another 3000 who are almost there or thereabouts.

That takes us to 9000 that was our average in 1998-1999 in our 'Great adventure'.

Then we have IMHO another 5000 need to be persuaded.

I think 14,000 is us almost at our full potential and we reached that in the Tony Mowbray-John Collins period.

So IMO we have 3 categories;

Hardcore
There or thereabouts
Need to be persuaded

At the moment IMO we are having very little joy with the Need to be persuaded. And i honestly believe we are treading dangerous water with a worrying small number of the There or thereabouts.

Just my honest opinion based on folk i know and speak to and 30 years going to ER.

You are just pulling numbers out of thin air.

[hibs0666]

Check how many fixtures sold out season 2006-2007.

All of which had a public sale of tickets that continued pretty much until the morning of the game.

[The_Horde]

Firstly, well done speaking to the yam. I'm not particularly in favour of these care in the community schemes, but you should feel proud that you've done your bit.

Whitty, Brown and Fletcher came through the youth system and were paid "peanuts" in 2007. Murphy was a cracking find from Mowbray. These guys weren't on megabucks. This is the model Hughes will be expected to follow.

What the yam is complaining about is that at that time they were paying Gordon £18k per week, etc. Now they're scrambling about in the petty cash tin for £1 for a lightbulb.

Aye, but they were much better players than the current crop. My point is that maybe people are put off by the fact that when standards drop the prices do not.

[TrickyNicky]

Worrying thing is "(Those) who are going currently somewhat reluctantly, through absolute loyalty". The next generation will have no loyalty as they get so much decent telly on the box. They only way round it is Summer football when the kids don't have anything else on the box, this is not up to us obviously.
IMO the stadium should be full EVERY week, if that means drastically lowering the prices for all or kids for free so be it.

I think this is a good point, our board has been building a stable long term financial plan and this must include the building of our fan base for the future too - if kids under 12 were free for example then I'd be hopeful that many non-season ticket holding Mums or Dads would probably find this quite an affordable day out with the kids - the cost of all the other stuff ( food, drinks etc.. ) is comparable with the movies and the likes.
There is also the positive initiative from the board of building the clubs standing within the broader community.

[matty_f]

[/B]

I think this is a good point, our board has been building a stable long term financial plan and this must include the building of our fan base for the future too - if kids under 12 were free for example then I'd be hopeful that many non-season ticket holding Mums or Dads would probably find this quite an affordable day out with the kids - the cost of all the other stuff ( food, drinks etc.. ) is comparable with the movies and the likes.
There is also the positive initiative from the board of building the clubs standing within the broader community.

Kids under 15 that are Hibs Kids members will get in for free on Saturday, then for another 3 home games this season.

[TrickyNicky]

Kids under 15 that are Hibs Kids members will get in for free on Saturday, then for another 3 home games this season.

Do you think letting them in for free all year would make much of a difference and although the membership cost is only 75 quid for under 15's would making it free be an incentive for more to come?
This may have been trialled in the past I'm not sure.

[matty_f]

Do you think letting them in for free all year would make much of a difference and although the membership cost is only 75 quid for under 15's would making it free be an incentive for more to come?
This may have been trialled in the past I'm not sure.

I don't know if it really would make that much of a difference. How much extra do we get on a Hibs Kids day?

Cheaper tickets aren't the only answer to filling the ground. There are lots of clubs that give out free tickets for kids, without it making much difference. Dunfermline did kids for £1, and I don't think it was a massive success for them.

IMHO, the club have done well to create an environment where people can come to watch the football in relative comfort, where it's (mostly) safe and where you can watch a decent SPL side.

There are folk who will always find a reason not to come to the games, and that's their choice.

As I said on an earlier post though, the only people who can genuinely make a difference to what happens on the club, and how much we have to pay to watch the team, and what sort of players we pay to watch is the fans. If we don't go to the games we starve the club of much needed revenue.

To see the club grow further we need to fund it, through buying season tickets, walk-ups, Hibs Kids, replica shirts, programmes, booking parties at Easter Rd, buying other merchandise from the club...

If we all did it, the club would notice a huge difference and the board have committed to making that difference make a difference on the pitch.

[smurf]

You are just pulling numbers out of thin air.

No I am not. Based on historical facts. I would suggest the figures are there or thereabouts.

[Ray_]

I don't know if it really would make that much of a difference. How much extra do we get on a Hibs Kids day?

Cheaper tickets aren't the only answer to filling the ground. There are lots of clubs that give out free tickets for kids, without it making much difference. Dunfermline did kids for £1, and I don't think it was a massive success for them.

IMHO, the club have done well to create an environment where people can come to watch the football in relative comfort, where it's (mostly) safe and where you can watch a decent SPL side.

There are folk who will always find a reason not to come to the games, and that's their choice.

As I said on an earlier post though, the only people who can genuinely make a difference to what happens on the club, and how much we have to pay to watch the team, and what sort of players we pay to watch is the fans. If we don't go to the games we starve the club of much needed revenue.

To see the club grow further we need to fund it, through buying season tickets, walk-ups, Hibs Kids, replica shirts, programmes, booking parties at Easter Rd, buying other merchandise from the club...

If we all did it, the club would notice a huge difference and the board have committed to making that difference make a difference on the pitch.

Getting other people to buy in to this “put money in the club & things will improve” to me is pure idealism, the floating fans already done this with SUABC, when they were getting the exciting football they craved under TM.

The fans were rewarded with a comprehensive sales policy, with higher quality players being shipped & inferior replacements brought in & then the very poor standard that they have had to endure since, not only by the standard of players, but also the cheap and unsuccessful managerial appointments, brought on this decline.

Despite the boards efforts to make a massive improvement in the off field facilities, for both the players & fans, I think it will take the next era of fast flowing football before any impression is made on the crowds.

The policy the board adopted [and I’m not going to get involved whether it was necessary or not] the slump in attendances & income was always going to be a very real possibility.

Getting the price right for kids is IMHO is certainly one way forward. If youngsters can regularly afford to go to ER [not just 4 times a season], then it would be more likely that occasions like Xmas & birthday's etc would result in business for the club shop & of course it would be the grooming the next generation of die hards.

[bawheid]

Your OP was typically negative smurf.

Your starting point appears to be that we've "lost" 2000 fans since 06/07 and that this is due to poor footballing performance and a perception that the board don't care about results on the park. Every strategic statement the board make, they make clear that their aim is to get the best team on the park possible. If that wasn't their aim why build a training complex?

You fail to recognise that 06/07 was most likely a 30 year high in terms of average attendance. Do the board get credit for "finding" 4/5,000 fans in the years leading up to 06/07?

As has been discussed on other threads, football attendance is not an exact science and spending vast sums on the squad does not necessarily lead to the "sold out" signs up around Easter Road. Latapy and Sauzee regularly played to crowds of 9,000ish.

All the board can do is put in place conditions to maximise attendances. A good stadium, providing as much money to the manager as is possible, marketing the club in the right ways. They're not perfect, but they're doing a good job IMO.


If you are of an opinion that there isn't a risk of our support base following further then i find such complacency staggering. Thankfully i've no doubt that our board of directors have no such complacency.

I look forward to their strategy and thank the lord they are not as complacent as you my friend.:greengrin


Where have I said this?


(silence)

Precisely. Debate the points. Don't put words in folks mouths.

[Gatecrasher]

if it helps people see the club are trying in addition to free hibs kids members this weekend they are doing 1 adult and 2 kids for £22 for the Hamilton game, this sort of offer should be availible more often IMO

[HFC 0-7]

I don't know if it really would make that much of a difference. How much extra do we get on a Hibs Kids day?

Cheaper tickets aren't the only answer to filling the ground. There are lots of clubs that give out free tickets for kids, without it making much difference. Dunfermline did kids for £1, and I don't think it was a massive success for them.

IMHO, the club have done well to create an environment where people can come to watch the football in relative comfort, where it's (mostly) safe and where you can watch a decent SPL side.

There are folk who will always find a reason not to come to the games, and that's their choice.

As I said on an earlier post though, the only people who can genuinely make a difference to what happens on the club, and how much we have to pay to watch the team, and what sort of players we pay to watch is the fans. If we don't go to the games we starve the club of much needed revenue.

To see the club grow further we need to fund it, through buying season tickets, walk-ups, Hibs Kids, replica shirts, programmes, booking parties at Easter Rd, buying other merchandise from the club...

If we all did it, the club would notice a huge difference and the board have committed to making that difference make a difference on the pitch.

I think giving under 12's a free season ticket when purchasing an adult season ticket would make a big difference. Football, for many, is just too expensive for
a mum or dad to take along their young kids. If Hibs did this, and lets face it, they have the space to now it would allow parents with young kids to get to ER, also these kids may get hooked this meaning they will buy their season tickets when older.

Hibs have plenty of space in the stands now, they may as well give a lot more free tickets out to kids or to groups to try and get them to easter road all the time + they will make some money off these people buying pies etc.

[marinello59]

if it helps people see the club are trying in addition to free hibs kids members this weekend they are doing 1 adult and 2 kids for £22 for the Hamilton game, this sort of offer should be availible more often IMO

Four Hibs kids games when kids can get free entry or bring a pal at reduced prices plus this one off deal for the Hamilton game., That's special deals for kids at a quarter of our home games in addition to the family season ticket deals. There is a lot being done to encourage families to come along to ER yet many will refuse to acknowledge it.
Hibs kids get 15% off everything in the club shop on Hibs kids days as well. :thumbsup:

[Hibbyradge]

The excellent poster wee162 over on the Bounce made a great point recently in saying that because of the greater supply in respect of capacity at ER, it is going to more than likely dillute the demand, because more than likely a seat is always going to be available.

In an ideal world it would have been much better to extend and improve the stadium at a time of a growing average.

But we've done so at a time of a declining average.



The implied criticism that Hibs built the new east at the wrong time, takes the biscuit imo.

For a start, we paid £3.5m for it which is around half of what we would have expected to pay a couple of years earlier.

Secondly, the idea that the additional seating will somehow lessen demand, is fatuous.

Demand and supply economics don't operate in the same manner when it comes to football attendances.

In fact, the provision of better facilities, in itself, will attract more people to turn up.

Success on the park, of course, would see bigger crowds at ER, but it's worth adding into the equation the fact that when we were winning every week with Sauzee and Latapy playing wonderful football in the Great Adventure season, we never broke 15000.

[Ray_]

Four Hibs kids games when kids can get free entry or bring a pal at reduced prices plus this one off deal for the Hamilton game., That's special deals for kids at a quarter of our home games in addition to the family season ticket deals. There is a lot being done to encourage families to come along to ER yet many will refuse to acknowledge it.
Hibs kids get 15% off everything in the club shop on Hibs kids days as well. :thumbsup:

My old man didn't go much to football, so as a nipper I used to go on my own, as did many other kids in that era, therefore a family season wouldn't have been any good to the likes of me.

As I was a quite small & skinny, I used to benefit from getting a lift over, which was a custom back then, even with the prices as they were, I would rarely have been able to go otherwise, therefore, if it was now, I'd have only been able to go to 25% of the games, instead of all of them.

When I got a bit older, I would wash cars & able to pay for my weekly fix, even making all the away games, via the supporters buses. Since then, like many others of my age, I've spent tens of thousands supporting the club, through me & my kids and it all started with free entry, at an age, when I never had the money to go to football.

Hibs do offer incentives, fair play to them, but can they do better?

[Ray_]

Success on the park, of course, would see bigger crowds at ER, but it's worth adding into the equation the fact that when we were winning every week with Sauzee and Latapy playing wonderful football in the Great Adventure season, we never broke 15000.

I keep hearing this, but at the time of Sauzee & Latapy the board and the fans were far more fractured than they are today & that certainly affected the attendances. The fact that the club needed consultants to engage the support highlights how bad it was.

The difference with the next good team, i.e. the record income recorded under TM, IMOH demonstrates the huge opportunity our board lost with McLeish’s team, by not getting the support on side.

[marinello59]

Hibs do offer incentives, fair play to them, but can they do better?

Well what do you want them to do? Times have changed or hadn't you noticed? The sole wage earning male doing just what he likes on his own at the weekend is no more. Football reacts to that or dies and it looks like Hibs are doing pretty well so far.

[Peevemor]

I keep hearing this, but at the time of Sauzee & Latapy the board and the fans were far more fractured than they are today & that certainly affected the attendances. The fact that the club needed consultants to engage the support highlights how bad it was.

The difference with the next good team, i.e. the record income recorded under TM, IMOH demonstrates the huge opportunity our board lost with McLeish’s team, by not getting the support on side.

Sorry I don't agree. At times we played some great football under McLeish. Do you honestly believe that thousands stayed away because they didn't like the board? If that's the case then I'd rather not have them.

[marinello59]

I think giving under 12's a free season ticket when purchasing an adult season ticket would make a big difference. Football, for many, is just too expensive for
a mum or dad to take along their young kids. If Hibs did this, and lets face it, they have the space to now it would allow parents with young kids to get to ER, also these kids may get hooked this meaning they will buy their season tickets when older.

Hibs have plenty of space in the stands now, they may as well give a lot more free tickets out to kids or to groups to try and get them to easter road all the time + they will make some money off these people buying pies etc.

Family group season tickets ARE discounted. Given the low cost of my lads Season ticket and the discount I got on our two adult tickets the kids season ticket is already an excellent deal. Add in ten months interest free payments to help spread the load and it look like the club is already doing what you would like.

[Ray_]

Well what do you want them to do? Times have changed or hadn't you noticed? The sole wage earning male doing just what he likes on his own at the weekend is no more. Football reacts to that or dies and it looks like Hibs are doing pretty well so far.

Why get so defensive if somebody offers a slightly different slant than you do, my reply wasn’t an attack on you; it was just my opinion on this current debate? Of course I've noticed that things have changed, but the relevant part is we do still have youngsters going [or the potential to go] on their own to games.

I really don’t get the part about the sole male wage earner, if that was the case, golf courses would be deserted wildernesses over the weekend and the relevance with football, yes more couples and families go to football than before, however, you have seen enough examples on here, of male wage earners ideal Saturday, meeting up with their mates, for a few pints & the match.

The message from the club over attendances & income is not that they are doing “pretty well”, it is that we must do better, that’s why this thread was started, while quoting Scott Lindsay’s estimation that it is now the priority of the board.

[Ray_]

Sorry I don't agree. At times we played some great football under McLeish. Do you honestly believe that thousands stayed away because they didn't like the board? If that's the case then I'd rather not have them.

I'm sorry you don't agree, I based that opinion on what people were saying at matches, on here at the time and from friends/fellow hibby's that still living in Edinburgh at the time.

What do you think was the difference between people turning up in the TM era & not in McLeish's then?

[marinello59]

Why get so defensive if somebody offers a slightly different slant than you do, my reply wasn’t an attack on you; it was just my opinion on this current debate? Of course I've noticed that things have changed, but the relevant part is we do still have youngsters going [or the potential to go] on their own to games.

I really don’t get the part about the sole male wage earner, if that was the case, golf courses would be deserted wildernesses over the weekend and the relevance with football, yes more couples and families go to football than before, however, you have seen enough examples on here, of male wage earners ideal Saturday, meeting up with their mates, for a few pints & the match.

The message from the club over attendances & income is not that they are doing “pretty well”, it is that we must do better, that’s why this thread was started, while quoting Scott Lindsay’s estimation that it is now the priority of the board.

I didn't read it as an attack on me, I read it as a different opinion.

Is there really large group of kids out there who are missing out because they want to go to games on their own? Kids don't play outside on their own in their local neighbourhoods to anywhere near the same extent that we did. Much more of their lives are spent being taken to places rather than just being left to get on with it. The club have already offered batches of tickets to youth groups, perhaps that is the way forward.

I do agree with your last paragraph. More can be done and I rather suspect will be done. It's difficult though given that a straightforward (and significant) price cut across the board is not an option. My contention is that so far the club ARE doing pretty well. It's just a start though.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm sorry you don't agree, I based that opinion on what people were saying at matches, on here at the time and from friends/fellow hibby's that still living in Edinburgh at the time.

What do you think was the difference between people turning up in the TM era & not in McLeish's then?

The fact that we were in Division 1, not the SPL, will certainly have had an effect. First division clubs didn't excite Hibs fand and they didn't bring many of their own supporters.

This lends weight to the product on the park/attendances argument.

However, it negates the suggestion that if the Old Firm left, the rest of the SPL would grow.

[Peevemor]

I'm sorry you don't agree, I based that opinion on what people were saying at matches, on here at the time and from friends/fellow hibby's that still living in Edinburgh at the time.

What do you think was the difference between people turning up in the TM era & not in McLeish's then?

Crowds did increase under McLeish. For the final 9 months of McLeish's tenure we had a poor run of results but the reconstruction of the main stand makes meaningful crowd analysis impossible. Then we had Franck followed by Blobby and attendances started to fall.

Could the fact that there was an increase under Mowbray be due to a combination of better football and the better facilities on offer in the 'new' main stand, ie. would the crowds have been higher under McLeish had the new West been built a couple of years earlier?

[Antifa Hibs]

I didn't read it as an attack on me, I read it as a different opinion.

Is there really large group of kids out there who are missing out because they want to go to games on their own? Kids don't play outside on their own in their local neighbourhoods to anywhere near the same extent that we did. Much more of their lives are spent being taken to places rather than just being left to get on with it. The club have already offered batches of tickets to youth groups, perhaps that is the way forward.

I do agree with your last paragraph. More can be done and I rather suspect will be done. It's difficult though given that a straightforward (and significant) price cut across the board is not an option. My contention is that so far the club ARE doing pretty well. It's just a start though.

I think there is alot of kids who'd go if it was cheaper, I know 2 for starters, my wee bro and his best pal. I took them both to the Maribor game as I got it for a fiver a skull. They were both hinting for the Rangers game but at the cost of £34 for them plus £27 for myself, especially seeing as it was on tele, it was no chance. Reduncacy plus other cutbacks means the parents have better things to spent £15 a week on rather than football. The end result of this is probably they'll likely get used to watching Chelsea or Man U on a Saturday 3pm thanks to our freidns at IraqGoals, end up giving up on Hibs. If it was a £5 each, 99% sure they'd still go...

Hibs pricing policy is daft. They charge a 4 year old the same as a 17 year old who could be in full-time employment. Charge a 10 year old the same as a 25 year student etc.

Should have a broader range of prices along the lines of

Adult: £22/£27 (£20/£25 for FF Lower)
Student: £15
16-18 (School leavers): £12
U16 (Plus those in 5th/6th at school): £5

Currently though, Hibs must be the only club in living history to charge the same for the family section as the rest of the ground. It's good to see the family section but there is no incentive for walk-ups to go there as it costs the same as the West or East.

[marinello59]

I think there is alot of kids who'd go if it was cheaper, I know 2 for starters, my wee bro and his best pal. I took them both to the Maribor game as I got it for a fiver a skull. They were both hinting for the Rangers game but at the cost of £34 for them plus £27 for myself, especially seeing as it was on tele, it was no chance. Reduncacy plus other cutbacks means the parents have better things to spent £15 a week on rather than football. The end result of this is probably they'll likely get used to watching Chelsea or Man U on a Saturday 3pm thanks to our freidns at IraqGoals, end up giving up on Hibs. If it was a £5 each, 99% sure they'd still go...

Hibs pricing policy is daft. They charge a 4 year old the same as a 17 year old who could be in full-time employment. Charge a 10 year old the same as a 25 year student etc.

Should have a broader range of prices along the lines of

Adult: £22/£27 (£20/£25 for FF Lower)
Student: £15
16-18 (School leavers): £12
U16 (Plus those in 5th/6th at school): £5

Currently though, Hibs must be the only club in living history to charge the same for the family section as the rest of the ground. It's good to see the family section but there is no incentive for walk-ups to go there as it costs the same as the West or East.

It's £22 for an adult and two kids next week when we play Hamilton. Bring them along.:thumbsup: Are they Hibs kids? That would give them another 4 games for the grand total of a tenner. So far so good? For Hibs kids season ticket holders it is already less than a fiver a match. I know that doesn't help walk ups but that is a fair price for many who may not have gone on a regular basis otherwise.
I do agree that the pricing policy looks somewhat lopsided. Overly generous to students perhaps?:devil:
There is no designated family section at the moment given that there are good family ST deals all round the stadium. Hopefully the Famous Five stand will become the designated area again in seasons to come enabling a bit more room for manouevre.

[HFC07]

[QUOTE=marinello59;2572667] Overly generous to students perhaps?:devil:
QUOTE]


Excuse me sir, we students need all the financial help we can get. :greengrin

[Ray_]

Crowds did increase under McLeish. For the final 9 months of McLeish's tenure we had a poor run of results but the reconstruction of the main stand makes meaningful crowd analysis impossible. Then we had Franck followed by Blobby and attendances started to fall.

Could the fact that there was an increase under Mowbray be due to a combination of better football and the better facilities on offer in the 'new' main stand, ie. would the crowds have been higher under McLeish had the new West been built a couple of years earlier?

We had far higher crowds under TM than even with the increase under McLeish, both teams played some great stuff & I don't think the facilities would have made the difference there was.

[Ray_]

The fact that we were in Division 1, not the SPL, will certainly have had an effect. First division clubs didn't excite Hibs fand and they didn't bring many of their own supporters.

This lends weight to the product on the park/attendances argument.

However, it negates the suggestion that if the Old Firm left, the rest of the SPL would grow.

To be fair, I was talking about the attendances while in the SPL. As far as the OF, i've always believed that having a tangible prospect of winning things would improve the crowds in the SPL, although no doubt money would be lost in other area's i.e. sponsorship & TV.

[dangermouse]

It's £22 for an adult and two kids next week when we play Hamilton. Bring them along.:thumbsup: Are they Hibs kids? That would give them another 4 games for the grand total of a tenner. So far so good? For Hibs kids season ticket holders it is already less than a fiver a match. I know that doesn't help walk ups but that is a fair price for many who may not have gone on a regular basis otherwise.
I do agree that the pricing policy looks somewhat lopsided. Overly generous to students perhaps?:devil:
There is no designated family section at the moment given that there are good family ST deals all round the stadium. Hopefully the Famous Five stand will become the designated area again in seasons to come enabling a bit more room for manouevre.

Not everyone who wants a family season ticket will want to sit behind the goals. I'd keep family pricing in the West as well.

[Stevie Reid]

What I find staggering about this board is the amount of people who take the attitude that Hibs are an entertainment providing business, and who use the lack of entertainment or 'product' on the park as a reason not to go, only to then suggest that we fix this problem by spending more than we can afford, and trading at a loss - which would be pretty suicidal for any business.

When the excellent financial results are revealed, people say that they're sick to death of hearing about balance sheets etc, and the football as a business statement then gets kicked out the park, but still constantly refer to the 'product'. It's blindingly obvious what needs to happen to increase revenue, and the Hibs board are going to do all they can to attempt to raise attendances - but I don't know whether they will succeed.

What I do know is this - 8 years ago when SUABC was initiated, we were £17M in debt, were in a run of 3 years in a row in the bottom 6, we were awful and were being watched by far less than 11,000 supporters on a weekly basis. We are now in a fully completed stadium, have a £5M training facility and next to no debt, whilst having finished in the top 6 for the last 6 years running, and having achieved one of highest ever league placings in the SPL, and we are being watched by higher average attendances than pre-SUABC - the football wasn't great for spells last season, and was very poor at times, but was better than the Williamson and Mixu eras. This is why I implicitly trust the Hibs board to steer us through these challenging economic times.

[ahibby]

As has been said the rebuild of the West Stand would have an adverse affect on attendances in the McLeish era. Couple that with Sky showing so many games such as Sunday night 6:10 kick offs and you will see crowds falling. Maybe I'm losing the plot but it sounded to me like Scott was hinting to people to go for concession prices if you can't afford the full price of a ST. There are ways and means. However I could be totally wrong about that. Having said that if I was CEO I'd rather someone had a concession ST than no ST at all.

I also find it difficult to believe that any attendance we could improve by would have a significant affect on the quality of the team. Who would have thought we could have afforded Miller and Stokes coming back from England or Riordan coming from Celtic? I thought a very ordinary Rangers side played out of their skins last season to win the league and for me that came down to incentive to play. A few extra quid doesn't carry that incentive it has to be significantly more. We can't afford significantly more from potential gate money (it might not be realistic to describe it as potential anyway). To make a big difference the money would have to come from other sources in addition to gate money increases. We are not prepared to use selling money and so a bit of creativity is required or accept the players we have and get a manager who can get the best from them. I'm not saying Yogi isn't that man.

[ahibby]

What I find staggering about this board is the amount of people who take the attitude that Hibs are an entertainment providing business, and who use the lack of entertainment or 'product' on the park as a reason not to go,

I don't think it is so much a problem of enterainment but more a problem of watching a not very good football team. Lets forget about whether it is entertaining or not. You have to ask yourself whether it is worthe more than £400 to go and be disappointed by various things football related, not necessarily just entertainment. How much does it hurt to watch for example? Is it worth spending £27 which you might have to scrape together to go and see us being humped at home by a poor Rangers side, for example. Hat off to the die hards who say yes, but those die hard days are over for many, in the current climate.

[matty_f]

What I find staggering about this board is the amount of people who take the attitude that Hibs are an entertainment providing business, and who use the lack of entertainment or 'product' on the park as a reason not to go, only to then suggest that we fix this problem by spending more than we can afford, and trading at a loss - which would be pretty suicidal for any business.

When the excellent financial results are revealed, people say that they're sick to death of hearing about balance sheets etc, and the football as a business statement then gets kicked out the park, but still constantly refer to the 'product'. It's blindingly obvious what needs to happen to increase revenue, and the Hibs board are going to do all they can to attempt to raise attendances - but I don't know whether they will succeed.

What I do know is this - 8 years ago when SUABC was initiated, we were £17M in debt, were in a run of 3 years in a row in the bottom 6, we were awful and were being watched by far less than 11,000 supporters on a weekly basis. We are now in a fully completed stadium, have a £5M training facility and next to no debt, whilst having finished in the top 6 for the last 6 years running, and having achieved one of highest ever league placings in the SPL, and we are being watched by higher average attendances than pre-SUABC - the football wasn't great for spells last season, and was very poor at times, but was better than the Williamson and Mixu eras. This is why I implicitly trust the Hibs board to steer us through these challenging economic times.

:top marks

[marinello59]

Not everyone who wants a family season ticket will want to sit behind the goals. I'd keep family pricing in the West as well.

I agree, no way I want to be behind the goals either. But it might be an area where even more can be done.

[marinello59]

[QUOTE=marinello59;2572667] Overly generous to students perhaps?:devil:
QUOTE]


Excuse me sir, we students need all the financial help we can get. :greengrin

I thought you might bite.:greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

I don't think it is so much a problem of enterainment but more a problem of watching a not very good football team. Lets forget about whether it is entertaining or not. You have to ask yourself whether it is worthe more than £400 to go and be disappointed by various things football related, not necessarily just entertainment. How much does it hurt to watch for example? Is it worth spending £27 which you might have to scrape together to go and see us being humped at home by a poor Rangers side, for example. Hat off to the die hards who say yes, but those die hard days are over for many, in the current climate.

Given that I am far from a wealthy man, and am a season ticket holder, I have to make these self same decisions, and am by no means criticising anyone who ultimately decides that they can't afford to come along anymore. My point that you highlighted was just that many people twist the football as business argument as it suits them.

Another argument that gets to me is that spending more on the team will somehow guarantee success, when history has shown that that is far from guaranteed - yet when it is pointed out that more people attending will mean more money guaranteed to be spent on the team, many look upon this sceptically. However, I can see how many may see this as a leap of faith scenario - which ultimately it is.

Supporting Hibs makes very little sense from a financial point of view - what I watch is rarely worth the money paid, and very, very often I walk away from a match unbelievably depressed, or far from exhilarated. But to die hards like myself there is no business way of looking at football, Hibs are like an extension of my family - it doesn't matter how bad things get or what they do to let me down, I will never, ever abandon them.

However, it must also be acknowleged that Hibs MUST be run as a business to survive and prosper, hence the reason I look positively at the progress that's been made over the last few years, despite the loss of some excellent footballers. In any case, I support a team representing the club I love - not individual players or any manager.

I am by no means touting myself as an uber fan, and I do not wish the following to be confrontational, I am merely stating feelings - but I can see why people get riled by the attitudes of the people who choose to watch a winning team, as opposed to supporting them regardless of results or quality on the park. We die hards invest more in the team both emotionally and financially, and when the team on the park does start winning, those investments will have played a very big part in that success - whereas many of those who arrive to watch the winning team have made no such investment.

After the people who want to watch a winning team have benefitted from this investment, many will then stop coming again, leaving those left behind to keep investing to hopefully bring the good times back again. As die hards this investment should never be underestimated (even though such blind faith is incomprehensible to some and even pitied and seen as worthy of ridicule to others on here). However, given that we all want what's best for the club, we know that it is only by the more regular attendance of those who do come intermittantly that the club could ever make even bigger strides forward, so the need to attract such supporters on a more regular basis can never be underestimated either.

For the reasons listed above I have no trouble understanding why people choose not to come along to ER - towards the end of last season when we were unbelievably vulnerable and getting humped on an almost weekly basis, I would rather have been somewhere, anywhere else. But I couldn't not go. However, as has been pointed out by many, yourself included, the days of the die hard will most likely not last forever. It is a real conundrum and I have every faith in the board to do all they can to attempt to increase attendances - but as I have said, I have real doubts as to whether it will work.

There is a negativity surrounding absolutely everything at ER at the moment which is way, way over the top given the position we are in (and exemplified perfectly by the personal insults constantly thrown at our Leith born, Hibs supporting manger - even in a thread dissecting an interview). I truly worry as to how much worse this negativity will get and how far it can penetrate. But at the same time I know we are in very, very good hands - I suppose I ultimately have more faith in the board than I do in the floating Hibs supporter at the moment.

[ahibby]

I was disappointed to see so many leave early when we went 3-1 down at home in the Europe game a few weeks back. I stayed to the end because I wanted to see all the changes that would be made, that is in substitutions, tactics attitudes. Things like that for me are worth watching because sometimes it can be a bit of an insight to the future. Since then we have brought in three players I rate as good additions. I plan to go along tomorrow. We can't pay the kind of money that will almost guarantee a quality side even with increased gates but we can use incentives not pay related. Such as short contracts and see the players perform if they wan't the short contract renewed and or lengthened.

[matty_f]

Given that I am far from a wealthy man, and am a season ticket holder, I have to make these self same decisions, and am by no means criticising anyone who ultimately decides that they can't afford to come along anymore. My point that you highlighted was just that many people twist the football as business argument as it suits them.

Another argument that gets to me is that spending more on the team will somehow guarantee success, when history has shown that that is far from guaranteed - yet when it is pointed out that more people attending will mean more money guaranteed to be spent on the team, many look upon this sceptically. However, I can see how many may see this as a leap of faith scenario - which ultimately it is.

Supporting Hibs makes very little sense from a financial point of view - what I watch is rarely worth the money paid, and very, very often I walk away from a match unbelievably depressed, or far from exhilarated. But to die hards like myself there is no business way of looking at football, Hibs are like an extension of my family - it doesn't matter how bad things get or what they do to let me down, I will never, ever abandon them.

However, it must also be acknowleged that Hibs MUST be run as a business to survive and prosper, hence the reason I look positively at the progress that's been made over the last few years, despite the loss of some excellent footballers. In any case, I support a team representing the club I love - not individual players or any manager.

I am by no means touting myself as an uber fan, and I do not wish the following to be confrontational, I am merely stating feelings - but I can see why people get riled by the attitudes of the people who choose to watch a winning team, as opposed to supporting them regardless of results or quality on the park. We die hards invest more in the team both emotionally and financially, and when the team on the park does start winning, those investments will have played a very big part in that success - whereas many of those who arrive to watch the winning team have made no such investment.

After the people who want to watch a winning team have benefitted from this investment, many will then stop coming again, leaving those left behind to keep investing to hopefully bring the good times back again. As die hards this investment should never be underestimated (even though such blind faith is incomprehensible to some and even pitied and seen as worthy of ridicule to others on here). However, given that we all want what's best for the club, we know that it is only by the more regular attendance of those who do come intermittantly that the club could ever make even bigger strides forward, so the need to attract such supporters on a more regular basis can never be underestimated either.

For the reasons listed above I have no trouble understanding why people choose not to come along to ER - towards the end of last season when we were unbelievably vulnerable and getting humped on an almost weekly basis, I would rather have been somewhere, anywhere else. But I couldn't not go. However, as has been pointed out by many, yourself included, the days of the die hard will most likely not last forever. It is a real conundrum and I have every faith in the board to do all they can to attempt to increase attendances - but as I have said, I have real doubts as to whether it will work.

There is a negativity surrounding absolutely everything at ER at the moment which is way, way over the top given the position we are in (and exemplified perfectly by the personal insults constantly thrown at our Leith born, Hibs supporting manger - even in a thread dissecting an interview). I truly worry as to how much worse this negativity will get and how far it can penetrate. But at the same time I know we are in very, very good hands - I suppose I ultimately have more faith in the board than I do in the floating Hibs supporter at the moment.

Well said. And I'd also take issue with the criticism of the board in the wake of the SUABC initiative.

That whole thing was to ensure that Hibs were able to stay at Easter Road. We still had to tackle the debt and IIRC no promises were ever made that we wouldn't need to sell our players.

The argument that those that stood up to be counted were in some way hard done by because the board sold talent is pish. The reward for standing up to be counted was that we can still watch Hibs at Easter Road.

[Stevie Reid]

Well said. And I'd also take issue with the criticism of the board in the wake of the SUABC initiative.

That whole thing was to ensure that Hibs were able to stay at Easter Road. We still had to tackle the debt and IIRC no promises were ever made that we wouldn't need to sell our players.

The argument that those that stood up to be counted were in some way hard done by because the board sold talent is pish. The reward for standing up to be counted was that we can still watch Hibs at Easter Road.

Precisely Matty. Having been one of the ST holders who was drawn at random to attend the fans forums that led to us staying at ER (which looked nigh on impossible at the time), I am immensely proud that the Hibs board have kept their part of the bargain in partnership with the supporters.

There was never any wool pulled over our eyes - at the main forum meeting at ER (where STF spoke very passionately), they revealed the following. The primary aim of the football club was to trade it's way out of the £17M debt by massively reducing the wages to turnover ratio, and ultimately living purely off the gate receipts/season ticket sales. The Sky deal had been removed after SPL TV collapsed, and the only TV deal we had was the *****ty BBC one, so the club decided that they could no longer count on TV money as a reliable stream of income (which had ultimately got everyone into bother in the first place).

With this in mind, the club stated that we could stay at ER provided that we averaged a home attendance of 11,000 - this would be enough to keep the club going on gate receipts alone. It was also emphasised that performance on the park would most likely reduce failrly dramatically due to the huge reduction in wages on offer, and that the team's star performers would need to be sold to service the debt.

However, the club did state that as long as we avoided being relegated over the crucial period where the wage spend was small, we would eventually see the green shoots of recovery. The fans at the forums agreed that this would be more than worth it to stay at ER, and the agreement was made, and the 'Stand Up and Be Counted' campaign began.

I think the people who don't appreciate the position that we are in now can't possibly have realised just how far in the ***** we were in the first place. The desire by many on here to spend more than we can afford is truly perplexing given all the unbelievable progress that we've just made getting back from the brink, and is tantamount to an alcoholic with a new liver deciding to have a drink or two.

If we make similar progress in the next 8 years, with the platform of no debt, a completed stadium, and the training facility, we could have some very special times ahead. Football supporters of clubs at our level do not have the luxury of knowing they are going to get their money's worth, we can only invest in hope - and we have far more reason to be hopeful than many, many others.

[Ray_]

Well said. And I'd also take issue with the criticism of the board in the wake of the SUABC initiative.

That whole thing was to ensure that Hibs were able to stay at Easter Road. We still had to tackle the debt and IIRC no promises were ever made that we wouldn't need to sell our players.

The argument that those that stood up to be counted were in some way hard done by because the board sold talent is pish. The reward for standing up to be counted was that we can still watch Hibs at Easter Road.

Matty, we are going back and forwards here mate, can't people like Steve and you just accept that one person's idea of supporting a team is different from another's and this means that not everybody will go along to ER regardless.

If that was a fact we would not have needed SUABC and this thread wouldn’t exist, never mind being as active as it is. Hibs like it or not, to many, are a form of entertainment and whether they are the team of choice or not, a large number of floating fans will only go if there is something on the park to entertain them, this has been the case since I’ve been going.

Believe it or not, as well as floating fans, some people in this world actually do not like football at all, can you imagine that? What I’m saying basically is that we are all different & Steve put in a comprehensive post on his thoughts, but alas, not everybody who is a customer or potential customer of Hibs thinks along the lines of Steve & I’m sure the club knows that.

[dangermouse]

If we make similar progress in the next 8 years, with the platform of no debt, a completed stadium, and the training facility, we could have some very special times ahead.

I'm in it for the long haul like yourself. If the younger generation of supporters realised how close we were to going out of business maybe they would see sense and support the board's progression towards those "special times". The club has come on leaps and bounds since those dark days of £17M in debt and with the completion of the stadium there is most definitely much more light at the end of the tunnel as future player sales should soon tart being ploughed back into the team.

[Stevie Reid]

Matty, we are going back and forwards here mate, can't people like Steve and you just accept that one person's idea of supporting a team is different from another's and this means that not everybody will go along to ER regardless.

If that was a fact we would not have needed SUABC and this thread wouldn’t exist, never mind being as active as it is. Hibs like it or not, to many, are a form of entertainment and whether they are the team of choice or not, a large number of floating fans will only go if there is something on the park to entertain them, this has been the case since I’ve been going.

Believe it or not, as well as floating fans, some people in this world actually do not like football at all, can you imagine that? What I’m saying basically is that we are all different & Steve put in a comprehensive post on his thoughts, but alas, not everybody who is a customer or potential customer of Hibs thinks along the lines of Steve & I’m sure the club knows that.

I stated several times in my post that not every supporter is a die hard, can understand and respect the reasons why people do not go - hence the challenge to the board. I think that was fairly clear.

To be fair, I do not see Matty failing to acknowledge that point in any of his posts either. I think we're both trying to make the point that the board has done an unbelievable job in getting us to where we are, and anyone who uses criticism of the board as a reason for not going or falling attendances, should really look at what they've achieved in the last 8 years.

[Stevie Reid]

I'm in it for the long haul like yourself. If the younger generation of supporters realised how close we were to going out of business maybe they would see sense and support the board's progression towards those "special times". The club has come on leaps and bounds since those dark days of £17M in debt and with the completion of the stadium there is most definitely much more light at the end of the tunnel as future player sales should soon tart being ploughed back into the team.

:agree:

It is also worth bearing in mind that since the start of SUABC, after two initial bottom 6 finishes, we've finished in the top 6 six times, appeared in 3 Scottish Cup semi finals, and 2 League Cup Finals, winning obviously in 2007, and Europe twice.

[matty_f]

Matty, we are going back and forwards here mate, can't people like Steve and you just accept that one person's idea of supporting a team is different from another's and this means that not everybody will go along to ER regardless.

If that was a fact we would not have needed SUABC and this thread wouldn’t exist, never mind being as active as it is. Hibs like it or not, to many, are a form of entertainment and whether they are the team of choice or not, a large number of floating fans will only go if there is something on the park to entertain them, this has been the case since I’ve been going.

Believe it or not, as well as floating fans, some people in this world actually do not like football at all, can you imagine that? What I’m saying basically is that we are all different & Steve put in a comprehensive post on his thoughts, but alas, not everybody who is a customer or potential customer of Hibs thinks along the lines of Steve & I’m sure the club knows that.

Ray I acknowledge that not everybody sees it the same way, but what I'm saying (and I can't see a solid counter-argument to it anywhere) is that until the people who are sitting on their erses hoping someone at the club entertains them realise that they are the people that need to put their hands in their pockets to be the catalyst to that entertainment, then nothing's going to improve and they'll always stay away.

They need to waken up to the fact that Hibernian aren't an entertainment business, they're not a business in the conventional way that a retailer is, because the 'customer' base is so unique.

Aside from TV and sponsorships, the club have to take in money from us punters to survive. Entertaining or not, that's the reality. And to grow and get better, the club need us to spend more on them, to give them more income.

It is a simple enough concept to grasp, whether people are seeing it as entertainment is neither here nor there, but if they're sitting at home while the club is trying to survive, and they're waiting for the day they are guaranteed entertainment, then they are doing significantly more harm than good.

[Ray_]

I stated several times in my post that not every supporter is a die hard, can understand and respect the reasons why people do not go - hence the challenge to the board. I think that was fairly clear.

To be fair, I do not see Matty failing to acknowledge that point in any of his posts either. I think we're both trying to make the point that the board has done an unbelievable job in getting us to where we are, and anyone who uses criticism of the board as a reason for not going or falling attendances, should really look at what they've achieved in the last 8 years.

Lets be fair here, the 17m debt was racked up by the Hibs board and the fans reacted by supporting what was a very good team & in the height, the income was 2M more than the current accounts are producing.

The hibs board reduced the debt and built the facilities with the money that was brought in to the club by the fans and mainly player sales, not out of the pocket of board members, some of which make a nice living from the club. Praise the board by all means, but don't underestimate the imput the fans have already made to the recovery.

The biggest threat to the recovery, infact the accounts show us in decline, is the fact that the board have not yet made the right decisions on the playing side & the football is dreadful, driving customers away, hence we have this thread.

[Ray_]

Ray I acknowledge that not everybody sees it the same way, but what I'm saying (and I can't see a solid counter-argument to it anywhere) is that until the people who are sitting on their erses hoping someone at the club entertains them realise that they are the people that need to put their hands in their pockets to be the catalyst to that entertainment, then nothing's going to improve and they'll always stay away.

They need to waken up to the fact that Hibernian aren't an entertainment business, they're not a business in the conventional way that a retailer is, because the 'customer' base is so unique.

Aside from TV and sponsorships, the club have to take in money from us punters to survive. Entertaining or not, that's the reality. And to grow and get better, the club need us to spend more on them, to give them more income.

It is a simple enough concept to grasp, whether people are seeing it as entertainment is neither here nor there, but if they're sitting at home while the club is trying to survive, and they're waiting for the day they are guaranteed entertainment, then they are doing significantly more harm than good.

Matty what you are asking is at odds on what has historically ever gone on in football & the club just do not have the size of fan base with the mentality that they will just turn up on the hope of something better.

Hibs fans have only had disappointment, whether it was the departing of Jock Stein, the break up of the TT's, McLeish's team falling apart or TM not getting the backing he felt he needed, why now do you think that people will think it to be any different? I can see positives in the infrastructure, but on the park, its so poor IMHO it won't attract the kind of faith you are asking for.

[Stevie Reid]

Lets be fair here, the 17m debt was racked up by the Hibs board and the fans reacted by supporting what was a very good team & in the height, the income was 2M more than the current accounts are producing.

The hibs board reduced the debt and built the facilities with the money that was brought in to the club by the fans and mainly player sales, not out of the pocket of board members, some of which make a nice living from the club. Praise the board by all means, but don't underestimate the imput the fans have already made to the recovery.

The biggest threat to the recovery, infact the accounts show us in decline, is the fact that the board have not yet made the right decisions on the playing side & the football is dreadful, driving customers away, hence we have this thread.

A large part of what I have been saying is how important the supporters have been in SUABC, and the fact that their/our actions played a huge part in redressing the debt balance after the speculate to accumulate years!

I take huge issue with what your saying in your last paragraph but I'm sure neither of us can be bothered debating those points any further.

[Ray_]

A large part of what I have been saying is how important the supporters have been in SUABC, and the fact that their/our actions played a huge part in redressing the debt balance after the speculate to accumulate years!

I take huge issue with what your saying in your last paragraph but I'm sure neither of us can be bothered debating those points any further.

I agree wholeheartedly about the impact that the support made in addressing the debt issue, however, I think we were very lucky that SUABC coincided with the emergence of TM's team & that certainly was a large contributory factor in the success.

That’s why I think a similar campaign, either on here or by the club wouldn’t work; as I don't think they don’t have to team or manager to pull it off.

[Stevie Reid]

I agree wholeheartedly about the impact that the support made in addressing the debt issue, however, I think we were very lucky that SUABC coincided with the emergence of TM's team & that certainly was a large contributory factor in the success.

That’s why I think a similar campaign, either on here or by the club wouldn’t work; as I don't think they don’t have to team or manager to pull it off.

I would agree that another campaign would be unlikely to work - it was the threat of losing our home that drove supporters on before, and there is no such jeopardy here.

I note with interest that you state that we were lucky with regards to the timing of SUABC and TM's team, on the back of you being fiercely critical of the board's footballing decisions on your previous post. I note that a lot of posters state that the board 'got lucky' with Mowbray, when criticising every other appointment that has been made.

TM sold himself to the board on the back of his footballing philosophy, and the board, being no mugs, knew that this was far more likely to bring crowds in than a BW type character, and appointed him - his no doubt modest wage at the time meant we got fantastic value for money in his first season too. Surely they deserve credit for that footballing decision, non?

It is also worth noting that the board backed TM to the extent of £5M in the shape of a the training centre and academy. Also worthy of praise I would think.

[Ray_]

I would agree that another campaign would be unlikely to work - it was the threat of losing our home that drove supporters on before, and there is no such jeopardy here.

I note with interest that you state that we were lucky with regards to the timing of SUABC and TM's team, on the back of you being fiercely critical of the board's footballing decisions on your previous post. I note that a lot of posters state that the board 'got lucky' with Mowbray, when criticising every other appointment that has been made.

TM sold himself to the board on the back of his footballing philosophy, and the board, being no mugs, knew that this was far more likely to bring crowds in than a BW type character, and appointed him. Surely they deserve credit for that footballing decision, non?

It is also worth noting that the board backed TM to the extent of £5M in the shape of a the training centre and academy. Also worthy of praise I would think.

I agree TM was a totally inspired appointment & I have no qualms about the building of the training centre & applauded the timing of building the new east stand, saving a lot of money in the process, but I think you hit the nail on the head, apart from TM, only McLeish could be called a success & I believe that the succession of poor [and often, cheap] managerial appointments to be the crux of our on field problems, I wouldn't count Collins as a failure, but I would count five of the last eight as failures.

With regards to being lucky over TM, we didn't get rid of BW because TM was available, thankfully TM applied & after hearing TM's [as you said] footballing philosophy, I think it would have been foolish for the board to let that catch go.

[Stevie Reid]

I agree TM was a totally inspired appointment & I have no qualms about the building of the training centre & applauded the timing of building the new east stand, saving a lot of money in the process, but I think you hit the nail on the head, apart from TM, only McLeish could be called a success & I believe that the succession of poor [and often, cheap] managerial appointments to be the crux of our on field problems, I wouldn't count Collins as a failure, but you I would count five of the last eight as failures.

With regards to being lucky over TM, we didn't get rid of BW because TM was available, thankfully TM applied & after hearing TM's [as you said] footballing philosophy, I think it would have been foolish for the board to let that catch go.

Collins could never be counted as a failure as he delivered a trophy, something few Hibs managers have achieved - success in my book.

There are arguments that can be made that given the circumstances that they were working in at the time, that BW keeping us in the SPL and Mixu keeping us treading water were relative successes - but is doesn't change how horrendous the experience of going along to ER at the time often was.

I think the board thought that Yogi was gonna be a simlar style appointment on the back of Mixu, as TM was on BW - alas the silky playing style hasn't materialised - well not yet, anyway. However, 4th place last year cannot be overlooked, even given form in the last 3 months of the season.

The next 2 games are crucial for Yogi - I am certainly in no rush to get rid of him, but knives have been out for many for a long time. I don't think not winning our next two games will lose him his job, but I do think that it will make coming on here and quite possibly going to ER, a not very nice experience for the next few months, unfortunately.

[sahib]

I stated several times in my post that not every supporter is a die hard, can understand and respect the reasons why people do not go - hence the challenge to the board. I think that was fairly clear.

To be fair, I do not see Matty failing to acknowledge that point in any of his posts either. I think we're both trying to make the point that the board has done an unbelievable job in getting us to where we are, and anyone who uses criticism of the board as a reason for not going or falling attendances, should really look at what they've achieved in the last 8 years.

You state you are only 32, come back in your late fifties and tell us if you still put attending ER at the top of your list. Many people's hobbies and interests change with age and circumstance. I attended Easter road with a high degree of regularity through the late seventies to the noughties. I watched some woeful teams but I still enjoyed it. It was my weekend routine that and going out on Saturday night. Now it does not have the same pull on me.

[Beefster]

I think there is scope for the board to do more to get people to come along to Easter Road, and I agree that at times the £22-£27 admission fee doesn't represent good value because of the standard on the pitch (and not just from Hibs, I'd like to point out, but from pretty much every team that comes to Easter Road.)

However, the prices as they are still left a wages/income ration of 68% - 8% higher than the recommended benchmark of 60%.

This means that the board don't really have much scope to reduce prices in the short term until such a time that more people turn up regularly.

The quickest win in it all, is for folk to be prepared to put aside the fact that for a while at least they'll be paying over the odds for the return that they get, trust that the board will use the money to back the manager to improve the team, and get of their erses and get down to Easter Road in numbers as often as possible to support the club.

Hibs don't have a mass audience. They need to generate as much revenue from a concentrated customer base as possible, while looking to grow that base.

That means, fundamentally, that unless we as fans are prepared to put our hands in our pocket to the benefit of the club, then things will almost always be as they are now.

It's as much down to us as it is the board.

It's up to them to persuade us to put our hands in our pockets more.

[Stevie Reid]

You state you are only 32, come back in your late fifties and tell us if you still put attending ER at the top of your list. Many people's hobbies and interests change with age and circumstance. I attended Easter road with a high degree of regularity through the late seventies to the noughties. I watched some woeful teams but I still enjoyed it. It was my weekend routine that and going out on Saturday night. Now it does not have the same pull on me.

Eh?

Again, I stated several times in my posts that I can understand why people don't go anymore. Why are you pointing out things to me that I've already alluded to in my previous posts?

[matty_f]

It's up to them to persuade us to put our hands in our pockets more.

To a point, but they can only do so much (and IMHO, they're doing about as much as they can just now).

The accounts are proof that there is not scope in the budget to drop prices or spend more on the players. We just turned a profit and no more.

What else can they do?

If folk are sitting waiting on the board to entice them along to Easter Road then they're seriously misguided about what supporting a football club actually involves.

[BSEJVT]

Its critical they get this to work and it requires to some extent a leap of faith in the non attending supporters minds to get it to catch fire.

I used to love the buzz of us talking ourselves up "fast flowing attractive football" "the ball is round" etc etc

To some extent and I am amongst the worst culprits we are now a support choc full of bean counters who spend more time argiung about the boards use of finances than talking about the football.

The club IMO need to get back to basics and concentrate on the football.

We need to do things like discounted pricing for existing fans to bring someone else along to Cat B games

Go back to playing bounce games at ER with free or £1 admission.

Play the odd glamour mid week game.

Publicise stadium tours and East Mains tours

Go back to selling the clubs facilties.