Burn a Koran Day

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm sure you have all heard about the pastor in america who is planning to burn 200 Korans. Now my initial reaction was that this wrong and simply going to lead to more hatred and trouble between the west and islam.

However, I got to thinking, how do you think we would react if we continually seen pictures of muslims burning the scottish flag, chanting death to all scots and god forbid flew planes into some of our buildings killing thousands of our own people.

Would we be so understanding?

[Hibbyradge]

No doubt there would be people in this country who would react to that kind on provocation in a similar manner as the American pastor has.

It wouldn't make it right, though.

Condemning an entire faith because of the actions of a minority of extremists isn't acceptable.

[Hibs Class]

The American pastor in question is an attention-seeking moron who doesn't quite understand his own bible. I think that's pretty much it.

[Steve-O]

Anyone who cares quite so much about such pish should take a look at themselves and do something more important.

[Sylar]

He may have support from some in the USA and abroad, but it is very much a small proportion.

The church has a very small membership and is akin to other far-right Christian institutions, such as the Westboro, with their views only being held by a minority of followers. (I'm willing to be corrected, but I'm sure there are links between the 2 churches, following a joint protest regarding a gay official being elected to office in Florida?)

You have to realise that the images of the Stars and Stripes on fire, these people chanting death against the West etc, are shown on our news channels, because it helps fuel an anti-Islamic feeling. They want us to feel that we need protecting from these evil people, in the name of national security.

I don't doubt for one second that there are a large number of those who would love nothing more than to see the West burn, but a very large number of people in the middle-East mourned alongside us after 9/11.

The way to bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference is through education and understanding, not mindless protests. All this will serve in doing is stirring up more ill-feeling, which will endanger not only the immediate community with the potential for retribution attacks, but also endanger the lives of the men and women fighting overseas in Afghanistan, to help keep us safe on our domestic soil.

[bighairyfaeleith]

No doubt there would be people in this country who would react to that kind on provocation in a similar manner as the American pastor has.

It wouldn't make it right, though.

Condemning an entire faith because of the actions of a minority of extremists isn't acceptable.

I agree, however I do wonder if it's easier to agree because we are not the target. If we where the target would we find it so easy to rise above it. I'm sure some could and would, however I'm not 100% sure how I would feel.

I don't in any way condone burning korans, protesting against mosques or any other form of retribution against muslims, I just wonder if america is as extremist as it appears or if all countries would have the same kind of reaction by the a minority?

[Holmesdale Hibs]

He may have support from some in the USA and abroad, but it is very much a small proportion.

The church has a very small membership and is akin to other far-right Christian institutions, such as the Westboro, with their views only being held by a minority of followers. (I'm willing to be corrected, but I'm sure there are links between the 2 churches, following a joint protest regarding a gay official being elected to office in Florida?)

You have to realise that the images of the Stars and Stripes on fire, these people chanting death against the West etc, are shown on our news channels, because it helps fuel an anti-Islamic feeling. They want us to feel that we need protecting from these evil people, in the name of national security.

I don't doubt for one second that there are a large number of those who would love nothing more than to see the West burn, but a very large number of people in the middle-East mourned alongside us after 9/11.

The way to bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference is through education and understanding, not mindless protests. All this will serve in doing is stirring up more ill-feeling, which will endanger not only the immediate community with the potential for retribution attacks, but also endanger the lives of the men and women fighting overseas in Afghanistan, to help keep us safe on our domestic soil.

Its unfortunate that such a small groups of people are attracting so much media attention. From the media’s point of view, it makes for good headlines but its important that the general public remember this represents a very small section of American opinion. There are 300M (give or take) living in the US so laws of average say you always get some extreme views. I’d have been happy for Hilary Clinton to say something along the lines of ‘islamists are intelligent enough to know that this is only a small number of Americans just like Americans know that the vast majority of islam wants to live in peace.’

A good quote from West Wing ‘Terrorists are to Islam what the KKK are to Christianity’.

[--------]

Its unfortunate that such a small groups of people are attracting so much media attention. From the media’s point of view, it makes for good headlines but its important that the general public remember this represents a very small section of American opinion. There are 300M (give or take) living in the US so laws of average say you always get some extreme views. I’d have been happy for Hilary Clinton to say something along the lines of ‘islamists are intelligent enough to know that this is only a small number of Americans just like Americans know that the vast majority of islam wants to live in peace.’

A good quote from West Wing ‘Terrorists are to Islam what the KKK are to Christianity’.


:agree:

Omid Djalili makes the same point the other way round in one of his routines.

[(((Fergus)))]

He may have support from some in the USA and abroad, but it is very much a small proportion.

Any data available?




...but a very large number of people in the middle-East mourned alongside us after 9/11.

Any data for this too? All I remember was either outright celebration or deafening silence.



You have to realise that the images of the Stars and Stripes on fire, these people chanting death against the West etc, are shown on our news channels, because it helps fuel an anti-Islamic feeling. They want us to feel that we need protecting from these evil people, in the name of national security.

All this will serve in doing is stirring up more ill-feeling, which will endanger not only the immediate community with the potential for retribution attacks, but also endanger the lives of the men and women fighting overseas in Afghanistan, to help keep us safe on our domestic soil.

Is the threat real or imagined?




The way to bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference is through education and understanding, not mindless protests.

That only works if it goes both ways. If it doesn't, there is another way to "bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference": war. We used it against the Germans successfully in WWII and if we had crushed them in WWI, there may not have been a second war.

[(((Fergus)))]

A good quote from West Wing ‘Terrorists are to Islam what the KKK are to Christianity’.

If only. Here's the recent death toll by muslim terrorists (another 16 killed by a homicide bomber today in Russia):

2010.09.08 (Bauchi, Nigeria) - Boko Haram Islamists assault a prison, killing two employees and two civilians.
2010.09.07 (Samarra, Iraq) - A married couple are among three family members slain in their home by Sunni gunmen.
2010.09.07 (Baksanenok, Russia) - Suspected Islamists assassinate a judge.
2010.09.07 (Punjab, Pakistan) - Terrorists murder a man and his nephew.
2010.09.07 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Mujahid manage to take down two Iraqis with a roadside bomb.
2010.09.07 (Mosul, Iraq) - A woman is shot to death by Muslim terrorists.


Ramadan 2010 scorecard after 28 days:

Terror Attacks
201

Dead Bodies
937


Any data for the KKK?

[Mibbes Aye]

Any data for this too? All I remember was either outright celebration or deafening silence.

I didn't realise you had travelled extensively round the middle East in the days following 9/11.

Is that because you didn't?




That only works if it goes both ways. If it doesn't, there is another way to "bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference": war. We used it against the Germans successfully in WWII and if we had crushed them in WWI, there may not have been a second war.

I thought we went to war with Germany because it had invaded a neutral country (putting aside the deeper, political reasons :greengrin).

I see what you mean though - if a nation invades a neutral neighbour then you're saying the response should be to crush them.

How many times has Israel invaded neutral Lebanon in the last thirty-odd years? Is it just the three times then?

[Sylar]

Any data available?

As much as I normally pride myself in verifying opinion with fact, no, I've no data available. My comment was based on a) opinion from speaking to other Americans and indeed having lived over there for a while. I guess if any data may be the fact that this group only have 50 followers? Considering even the size of their surrounding church catchment (Gainesville, FL. which is not only a large urban area, but also home to the University of Florida, which is one of the biggest in the USA - many "extreme views" are developed through interactions with individuals/groups whilst at University.


Any data for this too? All I remember was either outright celebration or deafening silence.

I initially thought this too, as I was in the USA at the time, being exposed to the highly charged media at the time. I do recall years later watching a documentary (one of the many dozens available) on 9/11 which covered the wider international response. I can't recall it off the top of my head, but I'll have a look later - I'm fairly sure that if you put 9/11 documentaries into Google, it's one of the first links.




Is the threat real or imagined?

I think the numbers speak for themselves, no? I think it's fuelled by a degree of paranoia, to keep the electorate on board with international policy, but I think the question of danger from extreme Islamic groups to Western society and safety is fairly self-evident? I'm not so niave to think that all of these groups have any means via which to export mass acts of terror/war, but the rising rate of attacks, both in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as on an international scale speaks volumes?




That only works if it goes both ways. If it doesn't, there is another way to "bridge the expanse of cultural and political difference": war. We used it against the Germans successfully in WWII and if we had crushed them in WWI, there may not have been a second war.

Agreed, but before lives are lost over such matters, surely a non-violent approach is best to begin with? If the difference in opinion is so vast and two ideals cannot co-exist, then war is inevitable, if not desirable. I'll fully admit to being emotionally charged when it comes to 9/11, as experiencing the day first hand was always likely to create some heightened opinion. Having said that, I think the actions of Pastor Jones are the crazed rantings of nothing more than a bigot who isn't interested in anything other than the violent removal of Islam from this world, which is a shame, as his views are as fascist as those he claims to oppose.

[hibsdaft]

it tells you a lot about religion how eager believers are to fall into the traps guys like this set and whip themselves into a frenzy.

has there ever been act of terrorr in the name of atheism?

[Sylar]

it tells you a lot about religion how eager believers are to fall into the traps guys like this set and whip themselves into a frenzy.

has there ever been act of terrorr in the name of atheism?

How about the persecution of those in China for being Christian?

Not quite terror as we know it, but I'm sure it doesn't make for a particularly light-hearted existence for the followers of the Church there.

Hate crimes and persecution are their own forms of terrorism.

[--------]

it tells you a lot about religion how eager believers are to fall into the traps guys like this set and whip themselves into a frenzy.

has there ever been act of terrorr in the name of atheism?


How about successive Stalinist purges throughout the 1920's, 30's and 40's?

Or the Chinese Cultural revolution?

Or a whole lot of what went on in the Third Reich?

[Betty Boop]

If only. Here's the recent death toll by muslim terrorists (another 16 killed by a homicide bomber today in Russia):

2010.09.08 (Bauchi, Nigeria) - Boko Haram Islamists assault a prison, killing two employees and two civilians.
2010.09.07 (Samarra, Iraq) - A married couple are among three family members slain in their home by Sunni gunmen.
2010.09.07 (Baksanenok, Russia) - Suspected Islamists assassinate a judge.
2010.09.07 (Punjab, Pakistan) - Terrorists murder a man and his nephew.
2010.09.07 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Mujahid manage to take down two Iraqis with a roadside bomb.
2010.09.07 (Mosul, Iraq) - A woman is shot to death by Muslim terrorists.


Ramadan 2010 scorecard after 28 days:

Terror Attacks
201

Dead Bodies
937


Any data for the KKK?

Sourced from Islam the religion of peace, and a big stack of dead bodies. :bye:

[Sylar]

How about successive Stalinist purges throughout the 1920's, 30's and 40's?

Or the Chinese Cultural revolution?

Or a whole lot of what went on in the Third Reich?

Hitler was a Catholic, no?

[--------]

Hitler was a Catholic, no?


Hitler was a Nazi - he abandoned any form of Catholicism during his service on the Western Front during the First World War.

The terror was generated by National Socialist ideology which was atheist.

[Sylar]

Breaking News on BBC that Pastor Jones has cancelled this, claiming a deal has been made with the Imam for the Prayer Centre to be located away from Ground Zero.

[(((Fergus)))]

Sourced from Islam the religion of peace, and a big stack of dead bodies. :bye:

:bye:

Correct. Is the data there not accurate?

[(((Fergus)))]

Hitler was a Nazi - he abandoned any form of Catholicism during his service on the Western Front during the First World War.

The terror was generated by National Socialist ideology which was atheist.

The nazis were absolute small fry compared with the Russian and Chinese communists. The only reason the Soviets in particular haven't been demonised like the nazis is because they were our allies. Mao though leads the bodycount charts.

[hibsbollah]

The nazis were absolute small fry compared with the Russian and Chinese communists. The only reason the Soviets in particular haven't been demonised like the nazis is because they were our allies. Mao though leads the bodycount charts.

You cant compare deaths caused by ignorance and stupidity (Maos Great Leap Forward and resulting famine) and the Nazis deliberate genocide of the Jews. The usual reason for doing so is a tedious desire to commie-bash.

[magpie1892]

Breaking News on BBC that Pastor Jones has cancelled this, claiming a deal has been made with the Imam for the Prayer Centre to be located away from Ground Zero.

Much as I would like that to be true (I think making deals is good and islam needs to learn a good deal more about give and take) I just can't see this as being the case.

A mosque siting that, I'm told, 68% of Americans oppose but was going ahead anyway is now being moved because some loony threatened to burn the koran?

If true, that's a monumental result for Jones...

[Sylar]

Much as I would like that to be true (I think making deals is good and islam needs to learn a good deal more about give and take) I just can't see this as being the case.

A mosque siting that, I'm told, 68% of Americans oppose but was going ahead anyway is now being moved because some loony threatened to burn the koran?

If true, that's a monumental result for Jones...

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/september/148630/Gainesville-pastor-cancels-Quran-burning?cmpid=Facebook

[steakbake]

Breaking News on BBC that Pastor Jones has cancelled this, claiming a deal has been made with the Imam for the Prayer Centre to be located away from Ground Zero.

Well seeing as the Islamic Centre was not actually going to be at Ground Zero anyway, it's a strange victory.

[magpie1892]

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/september/148630/Gainesville-pastor-cancels-Quran-burning?cmpid=Facebook

Pastor Jones is getting ahead of himself. There has been (SKY, FOX) no agreement as the ground zero mosque to move their fairytale castle somewhere else. The imam in Florida alongside Jones has apparently agreed to fly with him to NYC to talk to the fairytale castle gadge.

Back to square one, then.

At least the burning has been cancelled or is it just postponed?

[magpie1892]

Well seeing as the Islamic Centre was not actually going to be at Ground Zero anyway, it's a strange victory.

Close enough to cause huge offence to the majority of Americans, New Yorkers and the overwhelming majority of 9/11 families.

It's not going to be moved, it seems, on Jones's say-so, but it would be a bloody huge victory if it was moved. Undeniably.

[(((Fergus)))]

You cant compare deaths caused by ignorance and stupidity (Maos Great Leap Forward and resulting famine) and the Nazis deliberate genocide of the Jews. The usual reason for doing so is a tedious desire to commie-bash.

Mao didn't kill people through ignorance or stupidity but rather through ideology and zealotry - the same as the other two 20th century dictators. As a result, he made stupid decisions and was keen to remain ignorant of the results.

That was just the deaths from his economic policies; we'll never know how many died through direct persecution. Estimates for the three years of the cultural revolution are 750,000 - 1.5 million.

[magpie1892]

Mao didn't kill people through ignorance or stupidity

You want to read up on your history, mate. Mao's crazy 'central planning' killed 10s of millions. If that's not stupidity, I don't know what is.

(added to which, you say he didn't kill people through stupidity and then contradict yourself in the following sentence)

[(((Fergus)))]

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/september/148630/Gainesville-pastor-cancels-Quran-burning?cmpid=Facebook

Really thought that was a wind-up until I read this bit:


Imam Musri said he could urge Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam behind the proposed mosque, to relocate somewhere else in New York City.


If they do move the mosque, it will be incredibly significant and may achieve the original stated intention (reconciliation, understanding, etc.).

Can't see it happening but it would do wonders if it did.

[(((Fergus)))]

You want to read up on your history, mate. Mao's crazy 'central planning' killed 10s of millions. If that's not stupidity, I don't know what is.

(added to which, you say he didn't kill people through stupidity and then contradict yourself in the following sentence)

I chose my words carefully. His stupid decisions were the expression of his unrealistic (insane) ideology. His ignorance was the ignorance of a zealot who doesn't want to hear the feedback that reveals his ideology to be false.

He didn't kill millions because he was a thicko; he did so because he thought he knew best.

[magpie1892]

Really thought that was a wind-up until I read this bit:



If they do move the mosque, it will be incredibly significant and may achieve the original stated intention (reconciliation, understanding, etc.).

Can't see it happening but it would do wonders if it did.

Not going to happen, certainly not at the behest of Jones. If ground zero mosque was going ahead despite the enormous opposition form tens of millions of Americans, I don't think they would cave on this point.

Would be fab if the muslims did, though. You could hold a koran over the barbie and get 'em to jump through hoops, roll over, offer a paw, etc.

[magpie1892]

I chose my words carefully. His stupid decisions were the expression of his unrealistic (insane) ideology. His ignorance was the ignorance of a zealot who doesn't want to hear the feedback that reveals his ideology to be false.

He didn't kill millions because he was a thicko; he did so because he thought he knew best.

Not carefully enough, IMHO. Central planning was not an ideological pursuit - it was a logistical one.

Your (apparent) double contradiction suggests you should have been a little more choosy...

[gringojoe]

Wonder what he is going to do with his copies of the Koran now?:confused:

[hibsdaft]

what a circus.

the world is going mad.

[hibsdaft]

confirmed: the Pastor is a sicko, cultist lunatic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/quran-burning-terry-jones-sect-germany

[magpie1892]

confirmed: the Pastor is a sicko, cultist lunatic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/quran-burning-terry-jones-sect-germany

'confirmed' by The Guardian. In this context, a link to a story on the Daily Sport would have as much credence.

He's clearly a whackjob, but the Guardian is not the place to go for impartial debate on this man.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Close enough to cause huge offence to the majority of Americans, New Yorkers and the overwhelming majority of 9/11 families.

It's not going to be moved, it seems, on Jones's say-so, but it would be a bloody huge victory if it was moved. Undeniably.

A victory for what? Lumpen bigotry?

[Dinkydoo]

The thing is, if the "Ground Zero Mosque" was to be moved because of this Koran burning nutter, what kind of message does that send out to the rest of America (or even the world).

Disrespect an entire religion and they'll do whatever you want.............. :bitchy:

How many copy cat pillocks would we see after this one if it does indeed turn out to be a victory for cultural and religious intolerance.

The relationship between the West and Middle East is just going to get worse and worse if things like this carry on IMO; how can people be so bloody narrow minded. :grr:

[CropleyWasGod]

Wonder what he is going to do with his copies of the Koran now?:confused:

Donate them to the families of those Muslims who were killed on 9/11?

Oh... wait.... he didn't realise? :rolleyes:

[heretoday]

It's easy to blame the media for over-publicising this nutter and his wee gesture.

However, would it be too much to ask the Muslims to adopt the same attitude as ours in dismissing him?

It seems they are very quick to overreact and take offence.

[lyonhibs]

It's easy to blame the media for over-publicising this nutter and his wee gesture.

However, would it be too much to ask the Muslims to adopt the same attitude as ours in dismissing him?

It seems they are very quick to overreact and take offence.

Yeh, I guess when some in-bred racist promotes burning the Holy Book that - depending on how religious you are - provides the structure for your life, it is a tad unreasonable to be somewhat narked at the idea :confused:

If I was a practising christian, and the Muslim equivalent of Pastor Jones promoted a "Burn the Bible" Day, I'm not saying I'd go tonto, but I'd certainly expect a religious leader to make some sort of statement on the matter.

Anyone, the man in question is clearly one of life's losers, and it's good to see such widespread condemnation/ridicule/disregards for his trumpet blowing from across society.

[Woody1985]

It's easy to blame the media for over-publicising this nutter and his wee gesture.

However, would it be too much to ask the Muslims to adopt the same attitude as ours in dismissing him?

It seems they are very quick to overreact and take offence.

I agree.

'Demonstrating' outside the US embassay in Edinburgh. Banging on the doors and caliing for US troops to be killed if this goes ahead.

Ermm, idiots... The US government have already condemed his proposed actions and they don't want him to do it so it sort of defeats the purpose of demonstrating at their embassy.


Yeh, I guess when some in-bred racist promotes burning the Holy Book that - depending on how religious you are - provides the structure for your life, it is a tad unreasonable to be somewhat narked at the idea :confused:

If I was a practising christian, and the Muslim equivalent of Pastor Jones promoted a "Burn the Bible" Day, I'm not saying I'd go tonto, but I'd certainly expect a religious leader to make some sort of statement on the matter.

Anyone, the man in question is clearly one of life's losers, and it's good to see such widespread condemnation/ridicule/disregards for his trumpet blowing from across society.

So narked that you want other people of the same nationality killed because of one massive dick out of 300 million. Tad harsh don't you think? :confused:

I wouldn't expect it to turn into a mass recruitment tool for suicide bombers and attacks on the 'infidels', yes, you may get the odd stern remark from your leader but that would be it.

I agree about him being a loser, he's as warped as the morons protesting for troops and civilian deaths because of it.

What I would like to see is the American government arresting this man. They've stated it is a threat to national and international security. If that is the case then lock him up for inciting racial hatred. One dick in jail and no additional excuses to blow up innocent people. Simples.

[(((Fergus)))]

Not carefully enough, IMHO. Central planning was not an ideological pursuit - it was a logistical one.

Your (apparent) double contradiction suggests you should have been a little more choosy...

The decision to have central planning is ideological as are the plans that you implement through that logistical tool. By his actions, Mao valued his ideology over the lives of millions of Chinese. Some say he didn't know and that the feedback was poor (why wasn't the feedback system as rigorous as the command system was?); others say he said that many would have to die in order to bring about his reforms (he knew in advance). You could argue that it was the least undesirable option of those available at the time.

[(((Fergus)))]

Yeh, I guess when some in-bred racist promotes burning the Holy Book that - depending on how religious you are - provides the structure for your life, it is a tad unreasonable to be somewhat narked at the idea :confused:

If I was a practising christian, and the Muslim equivalent of Pastor Jones promoted a "Burn the Bible" Day, I'm not saying I'd go tonto, but I'd certainly expect a religious leader to make some sort of statement on the matter.

Anyone, the man in question is clearly one of life's losers, and it's good to see such widespread condemnation/ridicule/disregards for his trumpet blowing from across society.

What if he said something like this:


It is the duty of Muslims to react. When their holy book gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Americans are seen, they will be killed. No matter where they will be in the world, they will be killed.

Mohammad Mukhtar, Afghan cleric


Saw that in the Independent which also had this:


It is disrespectful, wrong and will be widely condemned by people of all faiths and none... Rather than burn the Koran, I would encourage people to read it.

Tony Blair

Thought that was quite a reasonable thing to say.

Anyone read it? I tried but couldn't keep my eyes open.

PS Sky channel 820 - Peace TV - I make the children watch it if they've been naughty.

[(((Fergus)))]

I agree.

'Demonstrating' outside the US embassay in Edinburgh. Banging on the doors and caliing for US troops to be killed if this goes ahead.

Ermm, idiots... The US government have already condemed his proposed actions and they don't want him to do it so it sort of defeats the purpose of demonstrating at their embassy.



So narked that you want other people of the same nationality killed because of one massive dick out of 300 million. Tad harsh don't you think? :confused:

I wouldn't expect it to turn into a mass recruitment tool for suicide bombers and attacks on the 'infidels', yes, you may get the odd stern remark from your leader but that would be it.

I agree about him being a loser, he's as warped as the morons protesting for troops and civilian deaths because of it.

What I would like to see is the American government arresting this man. They've stated it is a threat to national and international security. If that is the case then lock him up for inciting racial hatred. One dick in jail and no additional excuses to blow up innocent people. Simples.

I thought inciting racial hatred was to do with encouraging one set of people (usually your own) to go and beat up/kill another set of people? Unless he is purposely inciting Muslims to kill Americans or Christians, which is unlikely.

[--------]

The nazis were absolute small fry compared with the Russian and Chinese communists. The only reason the Soviets in particular haven't been demonised like the nazis is because they were our allies. Mao though leads the bodycount charts.

Quantifying genocide and mass-murder seems to me to be a particularly futile exercise.

The Nazis under Hitler murder 6.5 million Jews, and sizeable numbers of other minorities. They invade the Soviet Union, which leads to a succession of battles and genocidal actions with a combined total butcher's bill somewhere in the region of 25-30 million.

The entire accounting for successive waves of Red Terror in the Soviet Union, plus the deaths caused by Lenin's collectivisation of agriculture and other industrial and economic follies stands in many tens of millions. The Terror began soon after the October Revolution, and continued in waves through to the late 1940's and early 1950's. Stalin was planning a further wave of arrests and killings when he died. No one really knows how many died in all.

The Great Leap Forward - which was Mao's brainchild and was supposed to demonstrate Chinese Communism's total superiority to anything either the West or the Soviet Union could do - probably killed 35-40 million in four years. Mao himself stated publicly that the policy was to be enforced even if half the Chinese population died as a result.

That was economic incompetence driven by ideology.

The Cultural Revolution was state terrorism. Estimates of THAT death-toll vary between the official Chinese Government figure - almost certainly too low - of 730,000, to figures in excess of 2.5 million, as posited by (among others) Jung Chang and Jon Holliday in their biography "Mao - The Unknown Story".

These deaths were ideologically driven, and the ideologies concerned were overtly atheist and anti-religion.

But I'm not suggesting for one moment that religious authorities don't persecute those they see as heretics and dissenters.

Far from it - in fact, I believe a rather celebrated case of such took place outside Jerusalem around about 33AD.

Which is why is neither reasonable nor justifiable for anyone claiming to be a Christian to persecute or take the life of someone on religious grounds.

And another question is whether even genocide as appalling as the Final Solution or the Japanese atrocities in China justify random and undirected retaliation such as the carpet-bombing of German and Japanese cities by the Allies in WW2, when that bombing brings about the deaths of 800,000 German civilians, and considerably more Japanese.

I don't know the answer to that - but I think we need to keep asking the question.

[hibsdaft]

It's easy to blame the media for over-publicising this nutter and his wee gesture.

However, would it be too much to ask the Muslims to adopt the same attitude as ours in dismissing him?

It seems they are very quick to overreact and take offence.

well lets see how many folk actually get in a such a wax over it. so far i've seen the 20 man Afghan protest in Edinburgh, and a load of 3rd world protests which have probably been state-orchistrated (easy win for a populist leader to whip up folk into a frenzy and distract them from real problems in hand i.e. economy) or organised by hard-line religious groups (who lap up this sort of divisive ****). in both cases, there is a clear agenda, and it isn't protesting against this muppet in Florida. most on the ground we can safely assume are being lied to about the real significance and relevance of this guy and his standing in the US, and his local community.

[(((Fergus)))]

Quote from Iran:


Senior Iranian clergyman Ayatollah Safi Golpaygani also commented on the planned event, according to the DPA news agency.

"On behalf of a half billion Muslims, I condemn this savage plan and warn of its consequences," Golpaygani said in a statement on Iran's state television website, IRIB. "This pastor should be immediately arrested and his church closed down."

The ayatollah said US President Barak Obama would be held responsible if the "gruesome and inhuman act" takes place.

Unlike burying a woman up to her waist and throwing rocks* at her head.

* Not so big that she dies too quickly.

[--------]

Quote from Iran:

Senior Iranian clergyman Ayatollah Safi Golpaygani also commented on the planned event, according to the DPA news agency.

"On behalf of a half billion Muslims, I condemn this savage plan and warn of its consequences," Golpaygani said in a statement on Iran's state television website, IRIB. "This pastor should be immediately arrested and his church closed down."

The ayatollah said US President Barak Obama would be held responsible if the "gruesome and inhuman act" takes place.

Unlike burying a woman up to her waist and throwing rocks* at her head.

* Not so big that she dies too quickly.


There's quite a skill to spinning out the process of stoning someone to death, Fergus. A dying art, you might say. :rolleyes:

No one's defending the more gruesome aspects of Sharia law. Burning a book, even a book that people hold sacred, is trivial in comparison to torturing someone to death.

Pastor Firelighter in Gainsboro is the sort of plook who gives all religion a bad name, just as is Ahmatellinyou Golfpajamas. The people who are looking to set up the prayer centre AREN'T of the same mind as Ahmatellinyou Golfpajamas - and IMO they have every right to buy a completely nondescript and redundant building for the uses to which they intend to put it. They aren't IMO disrespecting 9/11 victims by doing so - not in any way.

[hibsbollah]

Mao didn't kill people through ignorance or stupidity but rather through ideology and zealotry - the same as the other two 20th century dictators. As a result, he made stupid decisions and was keen to remain ignorant of the results.

That was just the deaths from his economic policies; we'll never know how many died through direct persecution. Estimates for the three years of the cultural revolution are 750,000 - 1.5 million.

The point is, there was no direct intent in the deaths during Mao's reign (with the possible exception of the very end of the Cultural Revolution, when the Gang of Four were in effective control, if indeed anybody was) He was a peasant, catapulted to a position of supreme power. His main hatred was for intellectuals, not for capitalism, which is why the great famines occured. In this respect, the deaths had nothing to do with communist ideology at all, but had more to do with paranoid anti-intellectualism.

[Woody1985]

It's reported today that a muslim has stated intentions to have a bible bonfire. :faf:

No mass condemnation, no hysteria, no ****ing idiots burning flags etc etc.

[Leicester Fan]

I'm just downloading the Koran.

Does anybody want me to burn them a copy?

[hibsdaft]

It's reported today that a muslim has stated intentions to have a bible bonfire. :faf:

No mass condemnation, no hysteria, no ****ing idiots burning flags etc etc.

yet. lets see what happens if more people hear about this.

(and you're ignoring the context - their anger is mostly about respect, and muslims already felt disrespected by the West - burning their sacred book was the straw that broke the camels back for want of a better phrase).

either way this whole business is totally depressing, a minority of religious freaks on both sides setting the agenda for the rest of us. **** sake.

[hibsdaft]

I'm just downloading the Koran.

Does anybody want me to burn them a copy?

got to feel sorry for the any Bradford Uni Religious Studies students who had to go into their local bookshop and buy a Koran today :greengrin

[lyonhibs]

It's reported today that a muslim has stated intentions to have a bible bonfire. :faf:

No mass condemnation, no hysteria, no ****ing idiots burning flags etc etc.

Is it??

Where??

I'm buying the Sunday Times tomorrow - I'll expect to see it plastered across page 1 shall I?? As things stand, you're comparing chalk and cheese re: media coverage. There is an equally lunatic extreme side to Christianity as there is to Islam IMO.

[Woody1985]

Is it??

Where??

I'm buying the Sunday Times tomorrow - I'll expect to see it plastered across page 1 shall I?? As things stand, you're comparing chalk and cheese re: media coverage. There is an equally lunatic extreme side to Christianity as there is to Islam IMO.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=vn20100911105549409C188517#more

I don't know if you should expect anything. Maybe if you had a look instead of being a smart arse you'd have found the info quite easily.

It's good to see that the Islamic community in SA have opposed this.

[--------]

The point is, there was no direct intent in the deaths during Mao's reign (with the possible exception of the very end of the Cultural Revolution, when the Gang of Four were in effective control, if indeed anybody was) He was a peasant, catapulted to a position of supreme power. His main hatred was for intellectuals, not for capitalism, which is why the great famines occured. In this respect, the deaths had nothing to do with communist ideology at all, but had more to do with paranoid anti-intellectualism.

His father may well have been a peasant, but he was a rich one. If he'd been in Soviet Russia in Lenin's time, he'd probably have been 'purged' as a Kulak.

The idea of Mao himself as an uneducated peasant thrust into a position he didn't want and for which he was unsuited is nonsense, IMO. he was a consummate politician who trampled over anyone who got in his way, and who forced through policies like the Great leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution as means of holding on to his personal position and power at the expense of everyone around him.

Mao showed little or no sympathy for the peasants throughout his life. To him they were expendable - pawns in his rise to power. Far from being 'catapulted' to a position of power, he fought for position and power with every weapon he had. He was a vindictive man - anyone who crossed him was in for a lot of grief. His treatment of Chou En-Lai towards the end of Chou's life is a case in point - forcing him to attend long-drawn-out diplomatic meetings, making him sit on an upright chair when everyone else had an easy chair, withholding medications, including painkillers, publicly humiliating him at every opportunity...

Nasty piece of work was old Mao, and I may have been wrong calling him an atheist. Atheists don't believe in God - I reckon Mao saw himself as a god long before he died.

[lyonhibs]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=vn20100911105549409C188517#more

I don't know if you should expect anything. Maybe if you had a look instead of being a smart arse you'd have found the info quite easily.

It's good to see that the Islamic community in SA have opposed this.

In fairness, I don't have the inclination to go looking for stories about any fringe - elements of any religion that may be planning the protest equivalent of a chimps tea party - life is too short.

And I wasn't trying to be a smart-arse, merely pointing out that one of the main reasons that there has - as yet - been

"No mass condemnation, no hysteria, no ****ing idiots burning flags etc etc."

in reaction to this incident is that it hasn't made it far beyond a online South African news website, wheras Pastor Jones and his ridiculous antics made it into newspapers and news bulletins across the globe.

[Woody1985]

In fairness, I don't have the inclination to go looking for stories about any fringe - elements of any religion that may be planning the protest equivalent of a chimps tea party - life is too short.

And I wasn't trying to be a smart-arse, merely pointing out that one of the main reasons that there has - as yet - been

"No mass condemnation, no hysteria, no ****ing idiots burning flags etc etc."

in reaction to this incident is that it hasn't made it far beyond a online South African news website, wheras Pastor Jones and his ridiculous antics made it into newspapers and news bulletins across the globe.

Fair enough, I felt your post was dismissive with all the question marks!!!!

My point is that it has reached the mainstream newspaper(s) but no one gives a ****. I'm not saying they should and they probably don't want to blow it up to the scale of the pastor and incite more hatred. One guy gets hours upon hours of mainstream media and the other gets two paragraphs.

It's certainly going to be an interesting period for mankind on how these things develop in the next few decades between America and Islam.

[Betty Boop]

Fair enough, I felt your post was dismissive with all the question marks!!!!

My point is that it has reached the mainstream newspaper(s) but no one gives a ****. I'm not saying they should and they probably don't want to blow it up to the scale of the pastor and incite more hatred. One guy gets hours upon hours of mainstream media and the other gets two paragraphs.

It's certainly going to be an interesting period for mankind on how these things develop in the next few decades between America and Islam.

Surely you mean Islamism, there is a distinct difference. Islamism is an ideology, whereas Islam is a diverse faith and culture, a way of life, lived by Muslims.

[Woody1985]

Surely you mean Islamism, there is a distinct difference. Islamism is an ideology, whereas Islam is a diverse faith and culture, a way of life, lived by Muslims.

No, I meant Islam and Islamism . Do you think that Palin's of this world really give a **** about the difference between Islamism and Islam?

The Palin's of this world have a very real chance of getting into office and probably will do at some point in the future.

[(((Fergus)))]

From YNet:
Algeria ordered thousands of Koran books whose covers bear a Jewish symbol to be removed from shelves.

Algerians who had already purchased the books decorated with a Star of David were urged to return them to stores in exchange for another Koran or their money back.

According to the Algerian government, the symbol on the cover "is not in keeping with the general ethics of the state".

The United Arab Emirates-based Al-Bayan quoted an official from the Algerian Ministry of Religious Affairs as saying that a private businessman had imported the books from Egypt, and that censoring authorities were accusing him of "disrupting public order".

Members of parliament also expressed outrage, placing blame on the religious affairs minister and threatening to outlaw individual importation of the holy book.


Here is the offending article:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TIwjNUz9uSI/AAAAAAAADLE/pvgZrPiXxEc/s400/star+koran.jpg

Wonder if these will be getting burnt? :greengrin

[Leicester Fan]

in reaction to this incident is that it hasn't made it far beyond a online South African news website, wheras Pastor Jones and his ridiculous antics made it into newspapers and news bulletins across the globe.

It seems to me that the actions of the individuals concerned are very similar. You can hardly blame pastor Jones for the facts that his actions have been more widely reported than the Islamic nut job.

[Dinkydoo]

The thing is, if no newspaper, TV station, gave this guy the exposure he craves. Then nobody would give a ***; it would simply be some nut job burning books in America.

Nobody would know, nobody would care...........

The media thinks it's doing the world a favour by informing us of some lunatics actions, when in reality it's probably just provoking people into doing some other stupid act in the name of "faith" and "res-stepa!" - which of course will be covered in the most tasteful manner.

[lyonhibs]

It seems to me that the actions of the individuals concerned are very similar. You can hardly blame pastor Jones for the facts that his actions have been more widely reported than the Islamic nut job.

No I know, that was my point. The apparent lack of reaction to the Islamic nut job is not necessarily down to the fact the the extreme fringe of Christianity is less reactionary to offensive actions than the extreme fringe of Islam, it could well be down to the disparity in media coverage between the 2 events you mention.

No-one involved is coming out of this one smelling of roses, put it that way.

[hibsdaft]

The thing is, if no newspaper, TV station, gave this guy the exposure he craves. Then nobody would give a ***; it would simply be some nut job burning books in America.

Nobody would know, nobody would care...........

The media thinks it's doing the world a favour by informing us of some lunatics actions, when in reality it's probably just provoking people into doing some other stupid act in the name of "faith" and "res-stepa!" - which of course will be covered in the most tasteful manner.

good post :agree:

there's another thing going on here too, and its hard-right America (the Palin/ Tea Party/ Fox etc crowd) more or less manufacturing the main political issues of the day and thereby moving the domestic political agenda away from the economy and onto muslims - an issue that Obama will keep to his principles on, but be unpopular and appear powerless on (both the koran burning and "ground zero mosque" are issues he has no control over).

all this as we are rapidly approaching mid-term elections.

this nonsense hasn't come from nowhere, its part of a wider manipulation of American political debate. they started off talking about taxes etc but soon realised they get more impact talking about muslims and that "Obama is a muslim" pish that their followers spout.

and its not too hard to get a hysterical reaction from the muslim world when you want one.

[Woody1985]

Leicester fan has already posted that on this thread...

[hibsdaft]

don't think so.

??

[Woody1985]

don't think so.

??


I'm just downloading the Koran.

Does anybody want me to burn them a copy?

:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

His father may well have been a peasant, but he was a rich one. If he'd been in Soviet Russia in Lenin's time, he'd probably have been 'purged' as a Kulak.

The idea of Mao himself as an uneducated peasant thrust into a position he didn't want and for which he was unsuited is nonsense, IMO. he was a consummate politician who trampled over anyone who got in his way, and who forced through policies like the Great leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution as means of holding on to his personal position and power at the expense of everyone around him.

Mao showed little or no sympathy for the peasants throughout his life. To him they were expendable - pawns in his rise to power. Far from being 'catapulted' to a position of power, he fought for position and power with every weapon he had. He was a vindictive man - anyone who crossed him was in for a lot of grief. His treatment of Chou En-Lai towards the end of Chou's life is a case in point - forcing him to attend long-drawn-out diplomatic meetings, making him sit on an upright chair when everyone else had an easy chair, withholding medications, including painkillers, publicly humiliating him at every opportunity...

Nasty piece of work was old Mao, and I may have been wrong calling him an atheist. Atheists don't believe in God - I reckon Mao saw himself as a god long before he died.

He was indeed certainly a 'nasty piece of work'; im not suggesting he would have been good company for a pre-match drink in the Four in Hand. The point is, he did not have the same murderous intent as Hitler, and therefore any attempt to do as Fergus did-to put him top of the list of historical murderous dicatatorships above Stalin and Hitler-is just nonsense. There's no evidence that he planned genocide.

I'm aware this has gone well-off topic though:greengrin

[SRHibs]

It's a good thing that Terry Jones cancelled 'Burn a Qur'an' Day.

Doesn't he realise September 11th is already 'Bring Your Plane into Work' Day?

:duck:

[The_Todd]

The book-burning nutters do realise that the Qur'an and Bible have a fair bit in common, don't they? Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses - check, check and check. Present in both books. They may as well be burning their own bibles, really.

It astounds me that both sides are so guilty of so much hate despite believing in many similar things.

[CropleyWasGod]

The book-burning nutters do realise that the Qur'an and Bible have a fair bit in common, don't they? Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses - check, check and check. Present in both books. They may as well be burning their own bibles, really.

It astounds me that both sides are so guilty of so much hate despite believing in many similar things.

<cough> Jesus <cough>

[The_Todd]

<cough> Jesus <cough>

I didn't say their views were identical, but the you'd be forgiven for thinking they had nothing in common at all the way fundamentalists of both sides behave.

[CropleyWasGod]

I didn't say their views were identical, but the you'd be forgiven for thinking they had nothing in common at all the way fundamentalists of both sides behave.

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I am agreeing with you. Jesus is in the Q'ran too.

[Betty Boop]

<cough> Jesus <cough>

Muslims do believe in Jesus, but they don't believe he was crucified.

[CropleyWasGod]

Muslims do believe in Jesus, but they don't believe he was crucified.

See above lol

[The_Todd]

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I am agreeing with you. Jesus is in the Q'ran too.

Sorry, I don't actually know the Qur'an that well! :greengrin

But I know there are more than enough similarities to make the hostilities seem futile.

[Betty Boop]

See above lol

Sorreee ! :idiot:

[Sir David Gray]

I'm not quite sure why this made the news, to be honest.

Bibles, churches, crosses and other items and symbols related to Christianity have been getting burned and destroyed, on an almost daily basis for decades, across Muslim countries and a lot of it is state-sanctioned.

When the US starts to deny Muslim citizens the right to practice their faith freely and without fear of intimidation from the state authorities, I'll start to worry.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not quite sure why this made the news, to be honest.

.

:confused: In the most media-conscious and technologically advanced nation in the world?

[--------]

I'm not quite sure why this made the news, to be honest.

Bibles, churches, crosses and other items and symbols related to Christianity have been getting burned and destroyed, on an almost daily basis for decades, across Muslim countries and a lot of it is state-sanctioned.

When the US starts to deny Muslim citizens the right to practice their faith freely and without fear of intimidation from the state authorities, I'll start to worry.


:agree:

It's a capital offence (stoning, I think) for a Muslim to convert to Christianity.