PDA

View Full Version : "He tries hard, he's a nice lad, a good professional, always gives 100%, a Hibby"



lyonhibs
24-08-2010, 12:38 PM
......... and so on and so on and so on.

I was just wondering how happy folk were to count the above as demonstrable "advantages" to a player for which they should be praised. I used to do it myself, particularly in relation to Rankin, but it's dawned on me, as the cyclical threads/pub debates on Hogg, Nish et al reappear every week, that the above are not attributes that one can seriously quote when defending a player.

To try hard (note: this will likely manifest itself in varying ways dependent on the player. Riordan will never zoom about the pitch like Rankin, it's just not his game. There can be no doubt that him and Stokes both look fitter and sharper this season though) and give 100% are the very least we should be expecting.

As fans, who give of our time effort and wads of cash, we should expect effort and commitment to be a base that all players should have, before judging players on their supplementary technical/footballing/physical abilities (again, delete as appropriate dependent on the player and position)

Along with "being a good guy/good trainer", effort is not (or at least should not be) an "added extra" for a SPL player. It doesn't make up for a lack of competence at a technical/physical level.

I'd be interested how long these repetitive and tiresome threads about the usual suspects would be if the argument could stay focused on what they (right, let's cut to the chase, Nish and Hogg) bring to the team, not in terms of effort, commitment, Hibbyness or "good guy" rating, but in terms of tangible technical and/or physical attributes.

If the wails of "it's a hate-mob mentality" (I hasten to add I have never and will never abuse a Hibs player from the stand) from the backers and the humourless nicknames (Colin Pish etc) from the detractors were to stop, I reckon we could come to the - possibly uneasy - consensus that, as things stand, Nish, Hogg and most probably Rankin are decent guys with a committed professional outlook, but they just aren't good enough football players to merit a 1st team role at Hibernian Football Club.

Let's give the above a try after the ICT match, shall we?? :greengrin

Hibernian Verse
24-08-2010, 12:47 PM
Forever the voice of reason Pete.

Viva_Palmeiras
24-08-2010, 12:54 PM
I wonder if the debate on Deek extends beyond the boards
You only miss it once it's gone

truehibernian
24-08-2010, 01:04 PM
Good post lyon, but it's the technical ability and awareness of the players you specifically mention that not only bug me but get me angry. Rankin for example is a very good trainer, fit as a butcher's dog, and could no doubt run about the pitch all day long. Sadly, it's where he runs too and what he does with that little round thing at his feet when he does run. Surely it is not too much to ask to get the ball, be able to control first time instead of requiring three touches to bring the ball under control (Houston laid into Goodwillie big time at the weekend for taking 6 or 7 touches to control an easy ball on a bowling green pitch). Players like Liam Miller, Riordan and Stokes, you can see, have a technical proficiency way above the likes of Nish and Hogg etc. They can pass and move on the run, or turn on a sixpence at times to create space. The Hibs side at the moment, due to this frankly ludicrous system of so called "dutch style" football (which will never ever work in the confines of the Scottish Premier League.......the word Scottish is the giveaway) means that there are so many needless passes, players not technically good enough to find a man in space, and too much possession in their own half. Sunday was a prime example (and Fir Park previously). Brown plays the ball to Hanlon, to Hogg, to Bamba, to Hart, back to Hogg.........all on the edge of their box. Allows the opposing players to press, and when you have players low on confidence or not good enough, what do they do............it's hot potato time and the ball is launched, dinked, hoofed, whatever term you want to use, into no one or into the oppositions feet. The you have your whole back line on top of each other and at the mercy of attack. We have no pace, no width, we don't stretch teams. The SPL does not allow time on the ball (sadly), so players need to move the ball quick. This requires players to have simple ball control, know where their fellow player will be, and to move it up the pitch with an element of control, skill and speed. Look at Weiss at the weekend. Yes good player, but all he did was have to pace and confidence to run at players, beat a man, draw two defenders to him. Do Hibs have that at present (Zemmama maybe, sometimes an on-fire Riordan). Look at the workrate of Kenny Miller. We are static up front, yet he works the channels, draw men to him, works tirelessly. It wasn't their defenders or attackers blowing out their erchie after 90 minutes on Sunday, it was our's. We look unfit, slow and cumbersome. Hughes loves to train with the ball to increase technical ability. But in the SPL you also need core fitness, speed and power. I just don't think we have a team that can last either a full 90 minutes or a full season. The way we petered out last season for me proves it. So rather than me bash Hogg, Nish and Rankin as I do, it's maybe time to examine why they are so deficient and poor on and off the ball. Training methods perhaps ? Maybe it is time for Hughes to say you know what, my style of football may work in the training pitch where there is no real competition/battling/pressing, but in the SPL we need to be fit, adaptable and mix our styles. It's one way or no way with him. I can never remember Hibernian taking as many humpings or conceding as many goals against similar or weaker opposition in recent years (even under Auld, Duffy and Williamson). We have conceded 5 goals in 2 games so far. That cannot continue surely. For me it's a huge worry. Many of the goals were avoidable and foe me IMHO it's fitness and awareness of what's going on around you that's key. Stopping the cross, pressing the man, putting a foot in, and actually keeping possession. Sounds easy but we make it look like the hardest thing in the world.

Bearders
24-08-2010, 01:42 PM
We have conceded 5 goals in 2 games so far. That cannot continue surely. For me it's a huge worry. Many of the goals were avoidable and foe me IMHO it's fitness and awareness of what's going on around you that's key. Stopping the cross, pressing the man, putting a foot in, and actually keeping possession. Sounds easy but we make it look like the hardest thing in the world.[/QUOTE]

A constructive post and having watched the highlights several times now and in particular the 3 goals,
I fear for the season with Hogg still at the centre of the defence. If you watch the goals, CH's efforts
to prevent the goals were exceptionally poor. At no stage did he put his body on the line or bust a
gut. 3rd goal for me sums CH up - slow to cover up and didn't make an attempt to block. 2 great
tackles in the game - Boughera and Bamba which highlight what is needed. Not suggesting that CH
is in same bracket but I expect the Captain of Hibernian to be working his Bollox off to deny scoring
opportunities. 6 against Maribor, 2 against Welland 3 now to the Huns. In 3 of those games, Bamba
has been outstanding. There are other players that need moved on but we are leaking goals too
easily. Yogi must get this sorted before the window shuts before window closes.

500miles
24-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Nish - The only forward at the club who can play anything like a target man.
Consistantly decent goalscoring rate, even when he's playing in a deep role as he was last season.
Had a hand in most goals we scored last season (oh aye he did, I was checking the highlights with every "Nish" thread that was put up, aware that a lot of the criticism was *****), be it an assist, the man who brings the ball down, involvement in the move, or the goal itself. Good for defending set pieces too.

John Rankin - Exceptionally fit, hence why after 90 minutes he could still support Danny Galbraith's run to score against Celtic. A hell of a lot better tackler than he is given credit for as well, but would rather stay on his feet if he can help it. More pace than the majority of the team. When the rest of the heads go down, like at the end of last season and the season before, he perseveres, and that is why he is so useful at the business end of the campaign. Get's himself on the assist sheet's fairly often and, for me, takes the best corners at the club. Unlike McBride and Miller, he can keep the heid as well.

Chris Hogg - Always available, even through injuries that would keep others out - probably to the detriment of his reputation amoungst fans unaware of his condition. A good last ditch defender, more suited to playing deep as he lacks the pace to recover against pacier forwards. This is probably why he and Jones complimented each other so well, as Jones also preferred to play deep unless heading away long balls. Captain due to a long time served here, a time which includes a CIS Cup Winner's Medal, and a POTY award - neither of which are simply handed out to bad players. Get's a lot of hassle for hoofing the ball, but sometimes the lack of options open to him is frightening. We lose a few goals from set peices, but I worry about how many more we would lose without him at least making an attempt to organise his back 4. Also keeps the heid.

The 3 of them are flawed players, and probably the sort of players you want to replace with a higher quality if you are going to move on to the next level. However, this does make them automatically useless, they can do a job until someone else can.

Funnily enough, i think Bamba has cost us a couple of goals this season, but he's got a too much credibility in the tank from last season for some poster's to click to that.....

RIP
24-08-2010, 04:22 PM
I've been going to games since 1961 and never yet seen an entire team who I thought had no flaws. Even the Tornadoes had AD who would occasionally trip over, JBr who would sky a shot or hit the corner flag, JBl who was definitely the weakest link, AC who had no right foot :blah:

I adored that team but I don't know if we were all so forgiving in 1972

Don't matter in my book - they all wear Green and White and as long as they are picked to play on a Saturday I'll support them. Some are weaker than others but those that slag off our own players out loud at the matches show disrespect to club, players and fellow supporters.

And for me (and maybe it's just me) they are Deek, Chris, John, Colin and Liam. I'll never shout Riordan, Hogg or Nish

rj hibs
24-08-2010, 06:36 PM
I agree with the assessment of Nish and Rankin however Hogg has not always been a bad player wearas Nish and Rankin have been consistently poor ever since they joined. Hogg never used to play it long under Mowbray and Collins and he did win player of the year at one stage. Also, Hughes dosen't do any good to Hogg or anyone else by constantly having a go at them right in front of the fans.

The_Todd
24-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Nish and Rankin have been consistently poor ever since they joined.


Really? Even the most rabid Rankin-haters on Hibs.net give him a tad more credit than that.

sKipper
24-08-2010, 07:44 PM
Nish - The only forward at the club who can play anything like a target man.
Consistantly decent goalscoring rate, even when he's playing in a deep role as he was last season.
Had a hand in most goals we scored last season (oh aye he did, I was checking the highlights with every "Nish" thread that was put up, aware that a lot of the criticism was *****), be it an assist, the man who brings the ball down, involvement in the move, or the goal itself. Good for defending set pieces too

Got to be a wind up :greengrin

Dunbar Hibee
24-08-2010, 07:54 PM
I think Rankin is a good player, im a fan of him. Think im one of the only ones !

.Sean.
24-08-2010, 07:59 PM
I think Rankin is a good player, im a fan of him. Think im one of the only ones !
I think Rankin is a good player to have in the squad. Fair enough he isn't one of the first names for me on the teamsheet but he's a far better player than many on here give him credit for.

Skanko79
24-08-2010, 08:01 PM
I've been going to games since 1961 and never yet seen an entire team who I thought had no flaws. Even the Tornadoes had AD who would occasionally trip over, JBr who would sky a shot or hit the corner flag, JBl who was definitely the weakest link, AC who had no right foot :blah:

I adored that team but I don't know if we were all so forgiving in 1972

Don't matter in my book - they all wear Green and White and as long as they are picked to play on a Saturday I'll support them. Some are weaker than others but those that slag off our own players out loud at the matches show disrespect to club, players and fellow supporters.

And for me (and maybe it's just me) they are Deek, Chris, John, Colin and Liam. I'll never shout Riordan, Hogg or Nish

without a doubt the most sensible and true post ive read on this board. well said mate. :thumbsup: