Tragic

[12AlbionPlace]

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Delivery-driver-dies-after-attack.6471847.jp

Only brings it home because it happens on your doorstep but WTF is going on in this world when a guy going about his business innocently and this happens.

Thoughts go out to his family.

Some of these kids are out of control, I've no real ideas how to control them but something has to change.

[Judas Iscariot]

Unbelievable!

It's frightening to think what the country will be like in another 10 years if the younger members of our society continue to behave this way..

[RoslinInstHibby]

thats the way edinburgh is going these days, run by neds, its shocking.:grr:

that guy was just trying to earn an honest living, something those runts know nothing about.:bitchy:

[Woody1985]

Unfortunately there are people who get done in by ******** neds looking for a fight every weekend in Edinburgh but end up with a sore face and a cracked rib and no one hears about it. I've seen lots of people take funny lickings for next to nout in my life and I'm only 24. Thankfully none of them have resulted in people dying.

I thought this was the Happy Slap on the grandad with his grandaughter when I first read it.

I never seen the video but my gf was saying it was so sad that the little girl was just standing next to him whilst he was dying. Sick, horrible people in this world and no punishment to go with it.

[Hainan Hibs]

This type of thing infuriates me.

People going about their lives getting constant hassle from neds who think they are invincible when they gang up on people completely outnumbering others. **** all gets done about them and they continue to run about with billy big time attitudes.

"The police have been flying about everywhere"

Maybe if they weren't spending the rest of the time with their thumbs up their ***** the gangs wouldn't be such a problem for businesses in the first place.

[Woody1985]

I think the problem lies with the justice system and sentencing.

The police seem to do a really good job in breaking up trouble when they're around and tend to arrive reasonably quickly when there is trouble. But when the ***** get to court they get next to nothing.

Here's a good example and this is one of my mates...

He was going down the road to his house after a night out and there were some people drinking in a house about 6 doors away from his and they asked if he wanted to come in for a few drinks, so he did.

He went in and two guys tried to set about him so he got out the house and then tried to get the guys to come out in the street fro a fight. When they realised they were going to lose the fight they just started they phoned the police and said he had chased on of them for 3/4 of a mile and had a knife.

I should add that he never had a knife and he plays football 3 times a week and is one of the fittest/fastest guy I know, and trust me, if he wanted to catch them or do them in then he could have but that's beside the point.

He got 110 hours commnuity service. He pled guilty because he was on his own and they had 'witnesses' and he was told he could potentially be remanded if he took it to trial.

Now, I know this is my mate, but for someone to get 110 hours of community service after pleading guilty to possession of a knife whilst trying to fight with people is a joke.

As I say, he didn't have a knife and has no reason to lie to me given that I've been one of his mates for 20 years.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Absolutely shocking.

The problem is that these wee fannies go through life without anybody every saying no to them. Their parents let them run riot and do what they want from a young age. They get to school, and it's at that point where teachers turn round to them and say no for the first time, and they can't accept it. They know that the law is always on their side, and that if they continue going through life being ar$eholes with no intention of getting a job they can just **** each other, pop out sprogs to get a house on benefits and child support.

I read somewhere that there are over 500,000 people in Scotland on benefits. Unbelievable given that this figure will probably equate to between 20-25% of the working age population.

[Twa Cairpets]

There was a thread on the main board regarding antisocial behaviour in the stands at ER: "The Family Home". I got into a bit of an argument with a punter called DeGraaf regarding what was and was not acceptable behaviour as he, and a few others were absolutley convinced that it was acceptable to act aggresively and antisocially at football.

I am convinced that for most of the people who hold that view the ability to switch this antisocial behaviour on and off is limited.

Woody said earlier that he believes the blame lies the police and judiciary. I completely disagree. Anything that diverts the focus of blame from an individuals' personal responsibility not to act like a sc*mbag, be it at the minor antisocial end or the much more tragic result at Lochend plays squarely into the hands of the perpetrators claims of being a "victim" with "nothing to do" or "poverty made me do it".

There is not a short term solution other than getting mediaeval with genuine civil liberties and punishing wider society for the ills of the few, which I dont agree with as it is a slippery slope for repressive policing and Daily Mail-esque fearmongering. What has to happen is real, open education regarding drugs, regarding prison, regarding child-rearing and regarding single parenthood.

The background to the Lochend crime is mirrored in "The Scheme". Same people, different location. It is that level of fundamental stupid that needs to be tackled, at source to make this type of crime, rare though it is, rarer still.

[HibsMax]

If behaviour like this continues unchecked then I can seriously see a vigilante situation. I wonder if anyone on here knows one of these cretins? I don't specifically mean one of the guys involved in this incident, just any neds in general. Who knows, maybe they post here? I don't know. They need to grow the f*** up though because bullying, terrorising, beating and killing is not cool. It's not going to get you through life and, if we're lucky, maybe you'll get your balls to play with or thrown off a bridge some day. Yeah, two wrongs don't make a right but these guys are allowed to be persistently wrong and that has to stop.

[Woody1985]

Twocarpets, I read that with DeGraaf and there is just a complete lack of common decency for others.

The little schemies around my way are getting worse by the minute., in the last two months I've seen two different 14 year olds with e's and mephedrone. WTF!

My point was aimed at the justice system, not the police but I agree with you completely on personal responsibility aspect. My view on the justice system is that 1, it acts as a deterrent and 2, if you commit the crime you will be punished for it properly. I've said on another thread that some people will not be deterred regardless of the potential punishment i.e. serial killers etc.

However, I think that the justice system has a duty to protect people and that it fails badly at that. Take my example above. This was my friend and he was deemed guilty by the court and received 110 hours of community service. For someone found guilty of being in possession of a knife and threatening to harm others that is pathetic IMO.

I've read that there are only 80,000 prison places in the UK and we've got all these other fluffy alternatives because 'we' (the government) haven't wanted to spend more on jails for years (part of the MOJ budget as I understand it). I feel that crimes are being managed down to work within our existing limits rather than expand them and punish people as they deserve.

People seriously can't say there's not more than 80,000 serious criminals in a population of 60,000,000+.

Of course, none of that should take away personal responsibility but I do attribute some level of blame to the lax justice system for the way no one gives a **** about their actions.

[lyonhibs]

There was a thread on the main board regarding antisocial behaviour in the stands at ER: "The Family Home". I got into a bit of an argument with a punter called DeGraaf regarding what was and was not acceptable behaviour as he, and a few others were absolutley convinced that it was acceptable to act aggresively and antisocially at football.

I am convinced that for most of the people who hold that view the ability to switch this antisocial behaviour on and off is limited.

Woody said earlier that he believes the blame lies the police and judiciary. I completely disagree. Anything that diverts the focus of blame from an individuals' personal responsibility not to act like a sc*mbag, be it at the minor antisocial end or the much more tragic result at Lochend plays squarely into the hands of the perpetrators claims of being a "victim" with "nothing to do" or "poverty made me do it".

There is not a short term solution other than getting mediaeval with genuine civil liberties and punishing wider society for the ills of the few, which I dont agree with as it is a slippery slope for repressive policing and Daily Mail-esque fearmongering. What has to happen is real, open education regarding drugs, regarding prison, regarding child-rearing and regarding single parenthood.

The background to the Lochend crime is mirrored in "The Scheme". Same people, different location. It is that level of fundamental stupid that needs to be tackled, at source to make this type of crime, rare though it is, rarer still.

:agree: :agree:

The underlying trend in society is to blame someone, ANYONE other than yourself for the acts that people commit.

There is no excuse, no other entity to blame, other than the fact that these vicious little creeps are utter ****.

[New Corrie]

Pretty much agreee with Two Carpets and i'm not going to go down the "Daily Mail" route, but whatever we're doing now isn't working. My pal teaches in a rough area and he tells me that when he tries to discipline a scrote, the retort is "shut the pheck up or i'll accuse you of touching me up". The ball's burst, damage is done, the parents don't care, to busy with their own chav self indulgences, police/teachers have no clout and lawyers do their upmost to keep the neds out of prison.

[deeks01]

I know this reflects badly on the younger generation but it is honestly a minority , a sick minority that get all the attention due to disgusting incidents like this. Please do not tar all the young generation as the same as them because the most of us hate these neds as much as you do. I'm a teenager myself and they disgust me! The police need to get a grip and identify these "people" as all they're doing just now is stopping random teenagers as if every one is going to be carrying a knife when in truth its a minority.

Thoughts go to this guys family. RIP.

[Woody1985]

I know this reflects badly on the younger generation but it is honestly a minority , a sick minority that get all the attention due to disgusting incidents like this. Please do not tar all the young generation as the same as them because the most of us hate these neds as much as you do. I'm a teenager myself and they disgust me! The police need to get a grip and identify these "people" as all they're doing just now is stopping random teenagers as if every one is going to be carrying a knife when in truth its a minority.

Thoughts go to this guys family. RIP.

I don't think it reflects badly on the younger generation and I don't think anyone is tarring all teenagers with anything.

I think the comments so far are quite explicity about the groups that are problematic.

The police will be stopping people to boost their statistics, not always because they think you're carrying a knife. It looks better that they searched x thousand people as it makes people feel more safe reading the stats and then also proves your suggestion that it is a minority when they only find 1 per thousand for example. You should be glad. :greengrin

[Hainan Hibs]

. The ball's burst, damage is done, the parents don't care, to busy with their own chav self indulgences, police/teachers have no clout and lawyers do their upmost to keep the neds out of prison.

Pretty much sums it up:agree:.

[Twa Cairpets]

I know this reflects badly on the younger generation but it is honestly a minority , a sick minority that get all the attention due to disgusting incidents like this. Please do not tar all the young generation as the same as them because the most of us hate these neds as much as you do. I'm a teenager myself and they disgust me! The police need to get a grip and identify these "people" as all they're doing just now is stopping random teenagers as if every one is going to be carrying a knife when in truth its a minority.

Thoughts go to this guys family. RIP.

I agree with you completely. I'm quite heavily involved in youth football, and the vast majority of kids and youths are fundamentally sound, good guys. This is why heavy handed, disproportionate reactions to tragedies such as this do no good other than act as a sop to public reaction, and miss the target, such as the random stop-and-search you mention.

[New Corrie]

I know this reflects badly on the younger generation but it is honestly a minority , a sick minority that get all the attention due to disgusting incidents like this. Please do not tar all the young generation as the same as them because the most of us hate these neds as much as you do. I'm a teenager myself and they disgust me! The police need to get a grip and identify these "people" as all they're doing just now is stopping random teenagers as if every one is going to be carrying a knife when in truth its a minority.

Thoughts go to this guys family. RIP.


You're absolutely spot on, there are great teenagers out there (the vast majority) I would suggest, I think it's just human nature that when we get older and fear for our own kids, that we start getting drawn into all this "it was never as bad as this before" stuff.

[Twa Cairpets]

Pretty much agreee with Two Carpets and i'm not going to go down the "Daily Mail" route, but whatever we're doing now isn't working. My pal teaches in a rough area and he tells me that when he tries to discipline a scrote, the retort is "shut the pheck up or i'll accuse you of touching me up". The ball's burst, damage is done, the parents don't care, to busy with their own chav self indulgences, police/teachers have no clout and lawyers do their upmost to keep the neds out of prison.

Actually, a lot of what is being done now is working, otherwise the crime statistics would be much worse. Whilst this event is a massive tragedy for the family involved, it is a vanishingly uncommon occurence. The crime stats (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/02/19113939/HomicideinScotland200809) show that the chances of being murdered in Scotland has dropped over the last few years (currently around 20 murders per 1,000,000 of the population, and of these, only around 20% (i.e. 4-5 people per 1,000,000 of the population) are murdered by strangers. Obviously that is 4-5 too many, but in a population our size, that is not (given the fact we are human, with all our failings) a bad figure.

What I suppose I'm getting at is that a massive crackdown on kids to prevent them "going on a killing spree" (as I'm sure the Daily Mail will put it) is pointless because it isn't real. It doesnt happen. You are much more likely to die by any one of thousands of other ways than you are of being murdered, particulalry by a stranger, but the fear of this type of demise is much, much higher than it warrants. And this is where the root cause lies. if it acceptable to be antisocial at a low level, this creates a feedback loop where boundaries are pushed continually and more and more types of anti-social behaviour becomes the norm, creating more fear etc etc.


My point in myoriginal post was that the "Family Home" thread illustrated that as long as people continue to think it ok or "a laugh" to act like a moron, the excessive fear that is fuelled by this type of horrible tragedy will continue to feed on itself, which is why everything must come back down to education. Far from the ball being burst, the energy and creativity exhibited by thousands and thousands of teenagers every day is a credit to the nation. What needs to be tackled, and really, really focussed on, is the acceptance that "The Scheme" type of mentality of existence is a positive way to live.

[hibbill2002]

My brother stays 100 yards away, he often got his tea delivered by the man who died.

[Del Boy]

**** of the earth

[Hibs Class]

Saw this story earlier as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10954980

Depressing when 9 or 10 year olds can do something like this

[Westie1875]

Saw this story earlier as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10954980

Depressing when 9 or 10 year olds can do something like this

That is sick, I'm sorry to say this as I know its easy to point the finger at the parents but at 9 or 10 years old you need to look at how these kids are being brought up. :bitchy:

[HibsMax]

What do people think the reason actually is? Not the excuses given but the real reason. Why does it happen in the UK? We have trouble over here but it's different. Most of the crime I hear about is gang-related, not youngsters killing innocent people. Caveat : the USA is a pretty big country, I am sure there are all sorts of criminals out there, I'm just talking about what I've heard about in my own little bubble. I can only imagine how much worse the situation would be, in the UK, if it was as easy to get hold of a gun as it (apparently) is over here. Yikes!

[IWasThere2016]

There was a thread on the main board regarding antisocial behaviour in the stands at ER: "The Family Home". I got into a bit of an argument with a punter called DeGraaf regarding what was and was not acceptable behaviour as he, and a few others were absolutley convinced that it was acceptable to act aggresively and antisocially at football.

I am convinced that for most of the people who hold that view the ability to switch this antisocial behaviour on and off is limited.

Woody said earlier that he believes the blame lies the police and judiciary. I completely disagree. Anything that diverts the focus of blame from an individuals' personal responsibility not to act like a sc*mbag, be it at the minor antisocial end or the much more tragic result at Lochend plays squarely into the hands of the perpetrators claims of being a "victim" with "nothing to do" or "poverty made me do it".

There is not a short term solution other than getting mediaeval with genuine civil liberties and punishing wider society for the ills of the few, which I dont agree with as it is a slippery slope for repressive policing and Daily Mail-esque fearmongering. What has to happen is real, open education regarding drugs, regarding prison, regarding child-rearing and regarding single parenthood.

The background to the Lochend crime is mirrored in "The Scheme". Same people, different location. It is that level of fundamental stupid that needs to be tackled, at source to make this type of crime, rare though it is, rarer still.

Whilst I totally agree with this - the level of re-offending and toothless punishment for re-offending makes a mockery for the common decent individuals (who is ususally the victim).

Sometimes it easy to understand the calls for hands getting lopped off/the birch etc.

Personally, I am certainly in favour of capital punishment for certain categories of murder (eg child, the vulnerable, police etc)

[.Sean.]

Shocking stuff :bitchy:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-10950997

[Twa Cairpets]

Whilst I totally agree with this - the level of re-offending and toothless punishment for re-offending makes a mockery for the common decent individuals (who is ususally the victim).

Sometimes it easy to understand the calls for hands getting lopped off/the birch etc.

Personally, I am certainly in favour of capital punishment for certain categories of murder (eg child, the vulnerable, police etc)

Recidivism for violent crime is about 20% in Scotland (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/11/15729/12633). There appears to be no connection between the length of sentence and recidivism rates. I dont know of this is more or less than what people would have expected, but it is less than I thought.

Interestingly, if you read through that report, it suggests that recidivism is greater for those incarcerated compared to those who receive other punishments (presumable community service, etc). I dont agree with banging more people up, as it just would not stop this type of tragedy (and the evidence from this report suggests doing so would just store up a greater amount of crime in the future). It might make people feel superficially better because the government are seen to be "tough on crime", but it is simply not addressing the issues.

it would be a disaster to go down the route of the US, where 1% of the population are in jail. That is a huge amount, and therefore a huge cost, if nothing else.

By the way, im not suggesting that people should not be jailed. They should be, because punishment is important as actions must have consequences, but it is not a way of curing the reason for the crime being committed in the first place.

[Fat Stu]

as you'll see by my location I live a minutes or so walk from the incident.

Lochend is crawing with groups of youths at the moment(strangley quite tonight though).

Been living here for 6 years and have had my windows broken twice, my shed set alight and my doormat set alight. I keep myself to myself so I cannot see me being a target and I live with a young child and they must know that if they are locals.

I could personally think of a few youths round here that are capable of this, all known to the police.

Stabbing not so long ago at the garage at restlerig road aswell. this area is fast becoming a s...hole.

[.Sean.]

Shocking stuff :bitchy:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-10950997


Admin, could you please merge this, thanks.


Horiffic story to read. This gang culture, carrying knives etc must be put to an end. There must be hundreds, if not thousands, of teenagers in gangs in every city in the UK. Not only does letting them off with fines, cautions, community service etc for crimes like carrying a blade make a mockery of the justice system, it also makes a mockery of the victim. Thatis just plain wrong.


I shudder to think what these cretins could be capable of in five, ten years time if their crimes continue to not be penalised. Makes you ****ing fume, this **** killing a man for absolutely no reason whatsoever. *******s.

[Mike777]

as you'll see by my location I live a minutes or so walk from the incident.

Lochend is crawing with groups of youths at the moment(strangley quite tonight though).

Been living here for 6 years and have had my windows broken twice, my shed set alight and my doormat set alight. I keep myself to myself so I cannot see me being a target and I live with a young child and they must know that if they are locals.

I could personally think of a few youths round here that are capable of this, all known to the police.

Stabbing not so long ago at the garage at restlerig road aswell. this area is fast becoming a s...hole.

There was also a double stabbing in a flat on craigentinny road, a male and female, (i nearly bought the flat for sale above), It's not an area we are looking at now I also do delivery's and was working last night, never seen anything as it was quite,
It is sickening to think that when caught all he will get is 5-7 years and be out in 4 for good behaviour. £43,000 they say it cost's for every person in jail and then they just laze about.

What we need to do is stick on hard labour to there time, instead of sending are junk to india or africa send it to the **** behind the walls and get them doing the dirty jobs.

[MountcastleHibs]

I know this reflects badly on the younger generation but it is honestly a minority , a sick minority that get all the attention due to disgusting incidents like this. Please do not tar all the young generation as the same as them because the most of us hate these neds as much as you do. I'm a teenager myself and they disgust me! The police need to get a grip and identify these "people" as all they're doing just now is stopping random teenagers as if every one is going to be carrying a knife when in truth its a minority.

Thoughts go to this guys family. RIP.

:agree:

As a teenager myself, it really annoys me when you hear of incidents like this. These people are sick s**m, the lowest of the low. Those words may seem harsh, but it's my honest view of these people. These youths aren't helped by backgrounds, but surely they want better for themselves than to lead similar lives to their parents.

Not only this, but it gives other teenagers (and although coming to the end of my teenage years, I still feel included in this) a bad name. The youths who do do good, and get involoved in communities are often overshadowed by the minority who only want to cause destruction and don't care how they do it. These youths don't care what they do, how much hurt they cause, and the consequences of their actions. Perhaps they will now, if caught, realise the reality of their situation. I doubt that though.

As a young leader in the Boys' Brigade, it gives me great pride to see young lads who don't go down the hanging on street corner, causing mayhem route. It may come back to parents and background, as it has for me to get involved in the BB. The majority of teenagers are out to have a good time and to not cause chaos. There is sadly, a sick minority who are unwilling to do this.

My thoughts are with the man's family. RIP.

[matty_f]

Absolutely brutal.:bitchy: Was driving past there this evening and saw the Police and some news crews, and feared it would be something like this.

WTF is wrong with folk?! It's sickening, and could've happened to any one of us.

[Beefster]

It's not been mentioned much on this thread but the parents / family environment has a lot to answer for when it comes to kids like the ones in these stories. I can guarantee that my young kids won't grow up to be anti-social, bullying menaces to society purely down to the fact that I give a sh*t about them and spend a lot of time teaching them what is acceptable and what isn't (as the vast majority of parents do).

I don't know what the solution to these parents is but something radical will need to be done.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Brighton Rock, The Damned, The Wild One, Rebel Without a Cause, Clockwork Orange.........

Juvenile delinquents have always been a problem in society, there is nothing new in this. Every generation has had its gangs, and Lochend has not gone this way overnight.

I am sick to death of dewy eyed romantics talking about the old days when people knew their place, the Bobbies always got respect and everyone looked out for each other.

If that's the case, why is it that Children First (SSPCC) is well over 100 years old? Poor parenting and lack of love have always been a problem. I just don't think we are any further forward.

Maybe one way we could regain control of our communities is to ditch our cars and spend more time in the place where we live. If we shopped and socialised in our own neighbourhoods we might get to know who's who in the community and what they are up to.

Another is for adults to start acting like adults again. I am sick of seeing men in their fifties and older dressing like teenagers in baseball hats, shellies and slipper trainers. I think if the adults showed more self respect the kids would respect them.

[Green_one]

Recidivism for violent crime is about 20% in Scotland (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/11/15729/12633). There appears to be no connection between the length of sentence and recidivism rates. I dont know of this is more or less than what people would have expected, but it is less than I thought.

Interestingly, if you read through that report, it suggests that recidivism is greater for those incarcerated compared to those who receive other punishments (presumable community service, etc). I dont agree with banging more people up, as it just would not stop this type of tragedy (and the evidence from this report suggests doing so would just store up a greater amount of crime in the future). It might make people feel superficially better because the government are seen to be "tough on crime", but it is simply not addressing the issues.

By the way, im not suggesting that people should not be jailed. They should be, because punishment is important as actions must have consequences, but it is not a way of curing the reason for the crime being committed in the first place.

I am not clear what figure you are quoting but re-offending rates in Scotland are way above that 20%. Also re-offending from non custodial sentences such as Probation is not really much lower than prison. Given that those in prison have probably already been through the non custodial route and are more hardened criminals then the stats show that some criminals continue to re-offend no matter what penalty they recieve. Add the social strains we are about to go through and that will not improve. I am not saying you cannot reduce re-offending but the effort and cost involved is unlikely to be a priority. It is easier and more politically acceptable to imprison more people (as per the USA). I think zero tollerance helps change attitudes and stops escaltion to full blown crimes. This crime is an example. These kids should have been moved on by the Police ages ago, at the first sign of trouble. And by move on I do not mean would you kindly move a bit up the pavement. We do have issues with role models and one crummy generation passing their **** onto the next. Drink and drugs play a full part too.

No magic bullets though. Crime is an idicator of a whole load of wider social issues. From poor parenting to racism and pub culture. Not fixable by the Cops, the prisons etc alone.

[Betty Boop]

Brighton Rock, The Damned, The Wild One, Rebel Without a Cause, Clockwork Orange.........

Juvenile delinquents have always been a problem in society, there is nothing new in this. Every generation has had its gangs, and Lochend has not gone this way overnight.

I am sick to death of dewy eyed romantics talking about the old days when people knew their place, the Bobbies always got respect and everyone looked out for each other.

If that's the case, why is it that Children First (SSPCC) is well over 100 years old? Poor parenting and lack of love have always been a problem. I just don't think we are any further forward.

Maybe one way we could regain control of our communities is to ditch our cars and spend more time in the place where we live. If we shopped and socialised in our own neighbourhoods we might get to know who's who in the community and what they are up to.

Another is for adults to start acting like adults again. I am sick of seeing men in their fifties and older dressing like teenagers in baseball hats, shellies and slipper trainers. I think if the adults showed more self respect the kids would respect them.

Great post ! What on earth are these ? :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

I am not clear what figure you are quoting but re-offending rates in Scotland are way above that 20%. Also re-offending from non custodial sentences such as Probation is not really much lower than prison. Given that those in prison have probably already been through the non custodial route and are more hardened criminals then the stats show that some criminals continue to re-offend no matter what penalty they recieve. Add the social strains we are about to go through and that will not improve. I am not saying you cannot reduce re-offending but the effort and cost involved is unlikely to be a priority. It is easier and more politically acceptable to imprison more people (as per the USA). I think zero tollerance helps change attitudes and stops escaltion to full blown crimes. This crime is an example. These kids should have been moved on by the Police ages ago, at the first sign of trouble. And by move on I do not mean would you kindly move a bit up the pavement. We do have issues with role models and one crummy generation passing their **** onto the next. Drink and drugs play a full part too.

No magic bullets though. Crime is an idicator of a whole load of wider social issues. From poor parenting to racism and pub culture. Not fixable by the Cops, the prisons etc alone.

The figure is contained in the report in the "Violent Crime" section, and refers to people who are reconvicted of another violent crime within two years of release. I'm absolutely no expert on this at all, I was just interested in what impartial evidence there was out there that could act as a guide towards taking relevant steps to address the crimes being committed in the first place. If longer/more/harsher prison sentences clearly show a link between reduction in overall crime and recidivism, then I would back it because it would be clearly evidence based, but i'm not seeing that. I stress again that prison should be used as a punishment, but not as a means of getting at the root cause of the problem.

Threat of prison does not appear to be a deterrent anywhere in the world. The worst and most punitive penal systems don't seem to be in societies where there is little crime.

[hibsbollah]

You're absolutely spot on, there are great teenagers out there (the vast majority) I would suggest, I think it's just human nature that when we get older and fear for our own kids, that we start getting drawn into all this "it was never as bad as this before" stuff.

:agree: Every middle-aged generation thinks the current generation of youths is worse than the last. Its always been like that and probably always will be. Its a combination of selective memory and nostalgia at work. Meanwhile crime continues to fall but fear of crime rises.

[hibsbollah]

I can guarantee that my young kids won't grow up to be anti-social, bullying menaces to society

I'm afraid you cant guarantee any such thing, even if you were the best parent on the planet.

[ginger_rice]

What do people think the reason actually is? Not the excuses given but the real reason. Why does it happen in the UK?

IMHO as a society we glorify these type of people, TV channels full of documentaries like the Scheme, Cops with cameras etc, look at the role models kids have, most of these make the yams look intelligent! Look at the recent glorification of Roull Moat for example.

Thugs like these have always been around, it's just now that they can indulge in this type of behavior almost with impunity.

Parents too have a great deal of blame here, someone earlier mentioned that the first time some kids hear the words NO is when they start school, that is actually very true, the problem is though that they learn this behavior from their parents, parents who want kids but don't want the responsibility of bringing them up correctly.

One thing we really do need to get a grip of is rewarding bad behavior, when these scrotes are caught will they get 10 years hard labour or will they get taken gorge walking?

[ginger_rice]

I'm afraid you cant guarantee any such thing, even if you were the best parent on the planet.

That's very true, however if you point your kids in the right direction, teach them respect for others and other peoples property, teach them that hard work is an acceptable way to get on in life and that some behaviors are not acceptable, then you have a far better chance of things turning out right.

[Dinkydoo]

Very sad story and infuriating at the same time.

This ned culture across Britain seems to be getting worse and worse, I find it quite depressing to be honest.

I've been jumped several times myself (obviously not quite to the same extent though) and it's always been because some wee dick head has started on me (I've initially tried to walk away and been met most times with a hook to the back of my head), started fighting back and all his wee schemie mates 'jump in'.

I'm sorry but in my opinion if yer big enough to throw a punch your big enough to take one. I mean, whats the alternative, get battered (don't fight back), fight back (knock the wee **** on his arse) and all thier wee pals kikc the crap out of you. and then if by some miracle you actually do them all in by yourself, they have the cheek to phone the police and get you charged with assault.

Sorry, rant over - this subject really gets me going. :grr:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Great post ! What on earth are these ? :greengrin

Those training shoes with very thin soles, do they have another name?

[HibsMax]

I'm afraid you cant guarantee any such thing, even if you were the best parent on the planet.
He can't guarantee what his kids will / won't do but he can guarantee that if his kids get into this sort of trouble that he WILL give a crap about it and WILL take all measures necessary to ensure as much as humanly possible that the event is a one-off.

Maybe the parents are blissfully unaware but don't they know what there kids are doing, where they are, who they are hanging out with? If not, they should.

[Pete]

:agree: Every middle-aged generation thinks the current generation of youths is worse than the last. Its always been like that and probably always will be. Its a combination of selective memory and nostalgia at work. Meanwhile crime continues to fall but fear of crime rises.

I think this "crime continues to fall" argument is based on nonsense statistics. These statistics are so skewed to show a positive outcome it's unbelievable. The last government minister to tell us crime had fallen was showen to be telling blatant lies.

What I'm more worried about is the amount of crimes that aren't being reported due to the fact that people are now just accepting it as nothing will ever be done. what's the point?
Low-level anti-social behaviour has now become acceptable as nobody does anything about it. Therefore kids are pushing the boundaries more and more due to the fact they aren't checked in the first instances.

I agree that good behaviour begins at home but the amount of adults I know with a rank bad attitude towards society in general disciplining their kids is frighteningly high and definately on the increase. If a teacher was to discipline the kid the first reaction would be to storm down the school, confront the teacher and have it out with them for questioning their parenting. This rarely happened in my day and the teacher would be given the benefit of the doubt. Every time I've seen kids give back-chat it normally involves "we're only kids" and "we have rights"...it's as if it's been drummed into them by their parents to give this get out clause as a justification.

The respect for people in positions of authority has gone right out the window. Even kids from Wester hailes would think twice about giving the fire service a prank-call because they knew the consequences...they'd get taken back to the station and be "taught a lesson". You didn't mess with the poice either because they would do the same. Nowadays they're playing cat and mouse with them at their leisure.
Respect for others around them has also diminished. I walked past a kids playpark today and there was a family with their toddlers. In the same park there was a group of teenagers drinking, smoking, swearing their heads off and vandalising the swings. Nobody behaved like that in front of a young family in my day....you would buzz off and let them play. I'm not saying we never behaved like that but it was out of the way and never in front of anyone. It's as if they were saying "what is anyone going to do about it??"

It's recently been shoved down everyones throats that kids have rights and the law is on their side. It was good in a way but this is kids we're talking about and kids rebel and push it to the limit. They now know precisely what they can "get away with" and the majority of the time the law of the land will not punish them even if they commit pretty serious crimes.

There's loads of contributing factors such as the de-sensitisation of violence and kids wanting more in this "I want everything NOW" culture...resulting in the mindset that even if they have an abundance of activities on their doorstep they still have nothing to do!
I'm dreading that we've went too far down the line in the past twenty years to reverse it...and I couldn't disagree more with the other posters who say that we are worried about nothing and it's all to do with perception.
Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members. Listen to radio four and do some research. Don't dare try and tell me that was a common occurance in the past. What the hell has it come to when this sort of thing is going on in our country?

Cameron has his work cut out...and we need more than talk of "the big society".

Most people are frightened to go out the door at night and it's nothing to do with the media. It's because they've been abused/assaulted the last time they were out or they know someone who was....and they couldn't do nothing about it because the law would hammer them.

[Twa Cairpets]

I'm dreading that we've went too far down the line in the past twenty years to reverse it...and I couldn't disagree more with the other posters who say that we are worried about nothing and it's all to do with perception.
Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members. Listen to radio four and do some research. Don't dare try and tell me that was a common occurance in the past. What the hell has it come to when this sort of thing is going on in our country?

Most people are frightened to go out the door at night and it's nothing to do with the media. It's because they've been abused/assaulted the last time they were out or they know someone who was....and they couldn't do nothing about it because the law would hammer them.

I've edited the first part of your post Peter because the key points are in the last bit:

1. Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members. How many? Where is the source for this? "Common" suggests a large number. I just do not believe this to be true, but will absolutely changemy mind if you can give me a source that backs it up.
2. Listen to radio four and do some research. I do both, but you claim earlier in your post that the research that shows a decrease in crime is wrong because it, erm, shows a decrease in crime. So the research I can see is automatically shown not to be valid? I'm sorry, but individual reports of tragedy or badness is not evidence of the incidence of such activity, its evidence solely of an appaling incident.
3.Don't dare try and tell me that was a common occurance in the past. I won't, on the basis that you don't dare try to tall me that it is a common occurence in the present.
4.Most people are frightened to go out the door at night and it's nothing to do with the media. This sentence is wrong in almost every fibre of its existence. Most people are not frightened to go out at night, and where they are, i would suggest that it is almost exclusively becuase they have bought into a fear that is unfounded as a result of senstaionalist media.

You can go through life being afraid of everything, or you can, as you suggest, genuinely study the evidence and accept the fact that bad things will always happen, but you wil be monstrously unlucky if one of the bad things happen to you. Think of it it this way. in a nation of 5million people, there is a statistical liklihood that on any given day, an act that has a 5,000,000-1 chance of happening will occur. The unusual and dramatic will always be reported and commented on more than the mundane and genuinely commonplace, which is why you wont read any headlines about the 100 or so people that died today as a result of heart disease

[Pete]

I've edited the first part of your post Peter because the key points are in the last bit:

1. Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members. How many? Where is the source for this? "Common" suggests a large number. I just do not believe this to be true, but will absolutely changemy mind if you can give me a source that backs it up.
2. Listen to radio four and do some research. I do both, but you claim earlier in your post that the research that shows a decrease in crime is wrong because it, erm, shows a decrease in crime. So the research I can see is automatically shown not to be valid? I'm sorry, but individual reports of tragedy or badness is not evidence of the incidence of such activity, its evidence solely of an appaling incident.
3.Don't dare try and tell me that was a common occurance in the past. I won't, on the basis that you don't dare try to tall me that it is a common occurence in the present.
4.Most people are frightened to go out the door at night and it's nothing to do with the media. This sentence is wrong in almost every fibre of its existence. Most people are not frightened to go out at night, and where they are, i would suggest that it is almost exclusively becuase they have bought into a fear that is unfounded as a result of senstaionalist media.

You can go through life being afraid of everything, or you can, as you suggest, genuinely study the evidence and accept the fact that bad things will always happen, but you wil be monstrously unlucky if one of the bad things happen to you. Think of it it this way. in a nation of 5million people, there is a statistical liklihood that on any given day, an act that has a 5,000,000-1 chance of happening will occur. The unusual and dramatic will always be reported and commented on more than the mundane and genuinely commonplace, which is why you wont read any headlines about the 100 or so people that died today as a result of heart disease

1. When you say "source" what are you after? One of those reports/surveys that the goverment takes their selective figures from when it suits them??
You must know that crimes like that aren't reported to the police in the majority of cases. It's through informal interviews and word of mouth that the extent of this problem is highlighted.
You can google the subject if you want to find out about it...or maybe try and catch up on the radio four programs that highlighted the extent of the problem and more importantly, the complications regarding the reporting of such incidents.

2. You probably know full well that these "statistics" can be manipulated to suit. We were told in a fanfare that knife crime had decreased. Those statistics were manipulated.
The way crimes are recorded have also changed...again to suit number crunchers and mask over problems. Some forces have made drug-related crime nearly vanish by simply fiddling the recording methods!

3....

4. I disagree 100%. I don't know where you draw your conclusions from or who you mix with....but in the real world people are worried about what might happen to them if they go out at night. I can bet right now I've had more conversations on that subject with a larger cross-section of society than you have. I think you're almost insulting people's intelligence with that statement.


To summarise....I think you're burying your head in the sand.

[Hibbyradge]

One man dead and three youths convicted of manslaughter (they will be caught).

What a waste.

And all because of...nothing.

[kevinc]

I believe that at least one youth has been caught for this, 13 or 14 years of age:bitchy:

[hibsbollah]

I think this "crime continues to fall" argument is based on nonsense statistics.

Not true. Since the ONS are wholly independent now they are completely objective. Youth crime, violent crime and crimes against the child are falling and have been falling for years, at least at UK level, whether you measure it by reported crime or arrests.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nscl.asp?ID=5660

[Steve-O]

This does seem to be a very British thing, I just don't see the same type of behaviour over here from young people...you NEVER hear of ridiculous incidents like the fire brigade being attacked by youths and things like that, it just doesn't happen.

It's by no means perfect over here (% wise, the 2nd most punitive society in the Western world after USA...8000 in prison from 4 million population, and rising) but this type of antisocial behaviour with groups of disrespectful little neds hanging around street corners causing all manner of bother just doesn't seem to happen.

As HibsMax asked, why is this happening in the UK? Crime may be falling overall, but the prevalence of little bassas just acting like total pricks, whether that be shouting and swearing up the back of the bus, or murdering innocent delivery drivers, is surely growing.

[Twa Cairpets]

1. When you say "source" what are you after? One of those reports/surveys that the goverment takes their selective figures from when it suits them??
You must know that crimes like that aren't reported to the police in the majority of cases. It's through informal interviews and word of mouth that the extent of this problem is highlighted.
You can google the subject if you want to find out about it...or maybe try and catch up on the radio four programs that highlighted the extent of the problem and more importantly, the complications regarding the reporting of such incidents.

Sorry Peter but this is contradictory nonsense. You claim statistics are worthless/selective, but then suggest I do research on it. Every piece of research (such as the one Hibsbollah points out with a link) indicates reductions in crime levels. But to say that it's through informal interviews and word of mouth that the extent of this problem is highlighted is completely ludicrous. Are you seriously basing what you believe as fact on hearsay and anecdote? Would you really want to base policy, budgets, policing levels etc on what essentially is gossip? Think about it.

I obviously can't guess which R4 programmes you are referring to, but if they have any validity, they will have some sort of evidence or analysis to base their programme on.
You stated "Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members". If you’re right, and it is “common”, this is a deeply appalling and should be much more widely known about. So I'll ask again, on what do you base this statement? Bear in mind you've said "common occurrence" which suggests a lot. Obviously even if its happened once it’s a terrible thing, but the way you have stated it, deliberately or otherwise, is to suggest that it an imminent and serious danger to many people. It's not, unless you can direct me to any evidence to the contrary. Even the fact that you can (in a quite blasé manner but with absolute conviction) state this as an incontrovertible truth will contribute to the list of things people will be needlessly scared of.



2. You probably know full well that these "statistics" can be manipulated to suit. We were told in a fanfare that knife crime had decreased. Those statistics were manipulated.
The way crimes are recorded have also changed...again to suit number crunchers and mask over problems. Some forces have made drug-related crime nearly vanish by simply fiddling the recording methods!

It strikes me, potentially incorrectly i'll admit, that any evidence that does not conform to your view of the world is automatically guilty of being fiddled or manipulated. I've actually looked at some of the statistics (have you, or is your opinion on their validity second hand?), and you know what? It’s clear that some areas of crime have seen a rise. Are these wrong too, or are they ok because they show what you want?



4. I disagree 100%. I don't know where you draw your conclusions from or who you mix with....but in the real world people are worried about what might happen to them if they go out at night.

I draw my conclusions from evidence rather than tabloid headlines. I mix with a wide range of people socially and professionally, and always have, and I’m pretty sure they are in the real world. I’ll go out at night and have a beer or two without any concern whatsoever. If I want to go out looking for trouble, sure I’ll find it, but I don’t because, frankly, why would I? There are areas of Edinburgh I would probably think twice about going out in, sure, but as I have absolutely no desire to go out in these areas it doesn’t really impact on my life one iota.

I’m fortunate to travel quite a lot in the UK and abroad, and I’ve gone out in towns and cities I have never been to before without any concern, often after football games with rival fans about. No problems at all (except once after a Bristol v Cardiff game about 15 years ago where two groups of bams were intent on getting wired into each other – I was left well alone though).



I can bet right now I've had more conversations on that subject with a larger cross-section of society than you have. I think you're almost insulting people's intelligence with that statement.
What a bizarre statement. You can have absolutely no idea if its true, you have no idea what I do or what people I know or mix with, or what I talk about when I’m with them and it’s absolutely impossible to justify or prove.
But it’s an utterly moot point anyway. You’re suggesting I’m insulting peoples intelligence by alluding to the fact that people make decisions based on gut reaction rather than considered opinion. That’s not insulting anyone’s intelligence at all – that’s what people do because they are people. What I am stating that constant exposure to news of uncommon but extreme violence, to a daily drip of sensational headlines from the red tops and the Express/Mail will make people think that things are much worse than they actually are.


To summarise....I think you're burying your head in the sand.
I think I’d rather be on this side of the fence than living in a state of perpetual fear for no reason.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It's not been mentioned much on this thread but the parents / family environment has a lot to answer for when it comes to kids like the ones in these stories. I can guarantee that my young kids won't grow up to be anti-social, bullying menaces to society purely down to the fact that I give a sh*t about them and spend a lot of time teaching them what is acceptable and what isn't (as the vast majority of parents do).

I don't know what the solution to these parents is but something radical will need to be done.

:top marks

[vein]

I draw my conclusions from evidence rather than tabloid headlines.

Apologies in advance for only quoting this part of your post but may I ask, have you ever lived in a neighbourhood where you had the type of gangs being discussed 'hanging around' on a regular basis?

I'm asking this because I have and I can assure you it is not pleasant. In the last area I was living in we had nothing but grief from the same kind of kids as these ones in Lochend. I'm quite a big guy myself but I will admit that I was always concious that every time I left the safety of my flat to go anywhere there was a part of me that was on edge until I knew none of these feral kids were milling around looking for something to relieve their boredom. I was in the area for a few years and watched these kids target individuals just to get some kicks. One of the worst occurances I saw of this (even though there was no violence) was a couple of kids walking up the street minding their own business and this gang of about 10 were screaming racial abuse at them, the poor kids were terrified and I was just glad it didnt get violent.

I quoted your point about tabloid headlines because I know that I and many others that post on this board know that this is not tabloid exaggeration. A recent example I will give you of what happened in east Edinburgh was this. A few guys of similar age to yourself left a pub on a main road so not in the middle of one of the 'dodgier' areas close by. One of these guys I was told was a big lad who the majority of folks would not mess around. They noticed a group of about 20 kids (ages ranging from 10-16) coming towards them, the outcome of this was the few guys ended up getting leathered by the kids and I believe at least one was in hospital with a fractured jaw. I've heard that second hand and I guess you could call that hearsay, I have no reason to doubt the validity of the story though given the person that told me about this.

To me stories like the above are real life and are what is going on now, there is no scare mongering to it. Its not like this is just an isolated incident too, I saw Steve-O post in this thread and I can remember him posting previously about a friend who got attacked in the car park of the local Morrisons on here. Thats just one other example but I'm sure I could pull together quite a list.

[Baw Baggio]

This does seem to be a very British thing, I just don't see the same type of behaviour over here from young people...you NEVER hear of ridiculous incidents like the fire brigade being attacked by youths and things like that, it just doesn't happen.

It's by no means perfect over here (% wise, the 2nd most punitive society in the Western world after USA...8000 in prison from 4 million population, and rising) but this type of antisocial behaviour with groups of disrespectful little neds hanging around street corners causing all manner of bother just doesn't seem to happen.

As HibsMax asked, why is this happening in the UK? Crime may be falling overall, but the prevalence of little bassas just acting like total pricks, whether that be shouting and swearing up the back of the bus, or murdering innocent delivery drivers, is surely growing.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/new-zealand-teen-sentenced-for-murder-of-scottish-tourist-1654667.html

http://www.3news.co.nz/Christchurch-taxi-driver-killers-too-drunk-to-remember/tabid/423/articleID/145687/Default.aspx

http://itn.co.uk/76518a3d72e458df019715c1feef1c19.html


:dunno:

[Steve-O]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/new-zealand-teen-sentenced-for-murder-of-scottish-tourist-1654667.html

http://www.3news.co.nz/Christchurch-taxi-driver-killers-too-drunk-to-remember/tabid/423/articleID/145687/Default.aspx

http://itn.co.uk/76518a3d72e458df019715c1feef1c19.html


:dunno:

The two girls who were killed were not related to 'gangs of teens' hanging around street corners in any way so I am not sure what your point is? Both of those crimes were committed by lone attackers.

The taxi driver killing was perpetrated by older guys, drunk out of their minds, and seemingly attempting some sort of robbery - again, nothing like the crime being discussed on this thread.

I am not saying there is no crime here, there is, and I work within the criminal justice sector so am acutely aware of it. What I am saying is that I do not see the same type of behaviour here from teenagers as I do back home.

A daft sounding example maybe, but on the buses here, I have never experienced any of the 'wee bams up the back causing hassle' type of thing that's a regular occurence in Edinburgh. Before I left I saw stuff like kids throwing coins at people on a rush hour bus service, and chucking Metro newspapers around like missiles. Anyone who dared to say anything was mocked/threatened.

I honestly can't say I have EVER seen a massive group of teens hanging about the streets here, and I've been here over 2 years!

And vein is correct, a friend of mine was battered in what was the Safeway carpark at Piershill by a sizeable group of youngsters. I know it happened because I saw his face a few days later (broken nose, black eyes etc) and this guy is in no way the type who would look for ANY trouble. This was about 4-5 years ago now, and things don't seem to be getting any better. I don't think the polis caught any of them either.

[hibsbollah]

Apologies in advance for only quoting this part of your post but may I ask, have you ever lived in a neighbourhood where you had the type of gangs being discussed 'hanging around' on a regular basis?

I'm asking this because I have and I can assure you it is not pleasant. In the last area I was living in we had nothing but grief from the same kind of kids as these ones in Lochend. I'm quite a big guy myself but I will admit that I was always concious that every time I left the safety of my flat to go anywhere there was a part of me that was on edge until I knew none of these feral kids were milling around looking for something to relieve their boredom. I was in the area for a few years and watched these kids target individuals just to get some kicks. One of the worst occurances I saw of this (even though there was no violence) was a couple of kids walking up the street minding their own business and this gang of about 10 were screaming racial abuse at them, the poor kids were terrified and I was just glad it didnt get violent.

I quoted your point about tabloid headlines because I know that I and many others that post on this board know that this is not tabloid exaggeration. A recent example I will give you of what happened in east Edinburgh was this. A few guys of similar age to yourself left a pub on a main road so not in the middle of one of the 'dodgier' areas close by. One of these guys I was told was a big lad who the majority of folks would not mess around. They noticed a group of about 20 kids (ages ranging from 10-16) coming towards them, the outcome of this was the few guys ended up getting leathered by the kids and I believe at least one was in hospital with a fractured jaw. I've heard that second hand and I guess you could call that hearsay, I have no reason to doubt the validity of the story though given the person that told me about this.

To me stories like the above are real life and are what is going on now, there is no scare mongering to it. Its not like this is just an isolated incident too, I saw Steve-O post in this thread and I can remember him posting previously about a friend who got attacked in the car park of the local Morrisons on here. Thats just one other example but I'm sure I could pull together quite a list.

I dont think Two Carpets was suggesting these kinds of things don't happen, or that they aren't shocking or represent something wrong with society. The point is, are these incidents more frequent now or more serious now than they used to be? The statistical evidence says a clear 'no'.

I experienced plenty of 'feral youths' roaming about Edinburgh estates in the 1970s being bams and their parents not having a clue where they were. I was a bit 'feral' myself for a while:greengrin I wouldnt use this anecdotal and personal evidence to try and make a case that the 70s were some sort of scary low point in terms of Scottish society and youth crime though.

[Twa Cairpets]

Apologies in advance for only quoting this part of your post but may I ask, have you ever lived in a neighbourhood where you had the type of gangs being discussed 'hanging around' on a regular basis?

I'm asking this because I have and I can assure you it is not pleasant. In the last area I was living in we had nothing but grief from the same kind of kids as these ones in Lochend. I'm quite a big guy myself but I will admit that I was always concious that every time I left the safety of my flat to go anywhere there was a part of me that was on edge until I knew none of these feral kids were milling around looking for something to relieve their boredom. I was in the area for a few years and watched these kids target individuals just to get some kicks. One of the worst occurances I saw of this (even though there was no violence) was a couple of kids walking up the street minding their own business and this gang of about 10 were screaming racial abuse at them, the poor kids were terrified and I was just glad it didnt get violent.

I quoted your point about tabloid headlines because I know that I and many others that post on this board know that this is not tabloid exaggeration. A recent example I will give you of what happened in east Edinburgh was this. A few guys of similar age to yourself left a pub on a main road so not in the middle of one of the 'dodgier' areas close by. One of these guys I was told was a big lad who the majority of folks would not mess around. They noticed a group of about 20 kids (ages ranging from 10-16) coming towards them, the outcome of this was the few guys ended up getting leathered by the kids and I believe at least one was in hospital with a fractured jaw. I've heard that second hand and I guess you could call that hearsay, I have no reason to doubt the validity of the story though given the person that told me about this.

To me stories like the above are real life and are what is going on now, there is no scare mongering to it. Its not like this is just an isolated incident too, I saw Steve-O post in this thread and I can remember him posting previously about a friend who got attacked in the car park of the local Morrisons on here. Thats just one other example but I'm sure I could pull together quite a list.

As per Hibsbollahs post, I am not saying in any way that these things dont exist. The absolute level of crimes of any description demand action is taken against them. I certainly don't live in a land of milk and honey where magical pixies skip and dance, and having lived in Moss Side and Longsight in Manchester for three years, I have lived in areas that are somewhat less than salubrious.

What my point is that experiences like your friends, whilst undoubtedly true, are no worse than they were when I was 18 or 20 or 25, and almost certainly less common if the statistics (despite peterdouglas' protestations to the contrary) are to be believed. Each individual circumstance of crime automatically has an impact precisely because of its relative rarity.

I do disagree about the effect of the tabloids though. The constant dripping of badly researched, agenda-driven reports in these papers does affect the national psyche - it has to. If you read daily with an unskeptical stance about the dangers inherent in just about everything from food to crime, it is impossible not to become more scared.

Dara O'Briain has a great sketch on it - heres a transcript from the relevant bit (and you can find it on Youtube):
"I'm a bit of a nerd about these kind
of things, I get really pissed off when people give out about crime going up and say the numbers are definitely going down, If you go, "The numbers are going down," they go, "The fear of crime is rising." So f****** what? Know what I mean? Zombies are at an all-time low level, but the fear of zombies could be high, it doesn't mean we have to have government policies to deal with the fear of zombies, it's ridiculous, the NHS, there was a survey in the NHS about dentistry, where they found that some people are removing their own teeth,
They brought on some senior dentist onto Sky News and gave out to him and said, "This is terrible, People are removing their teeth!" This guy stood there and went, "Systems
should be put in place to deal with it." Which is stupid, He should be going, "These people are f****** morons!""

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm actually surprised that the rates of violence aren't higher than they are. To all intents adn purposes we officially gave up being a nation over twenty years ago, when we adopted the view that the individual had primacy over society and community.

When young working-class kids in my generation grew up in schemes, they had full employment, so were largely off the streets, working from 9-5. This gave them money, so they could go out and do things. They also had educational opportunities; yes, there might have been cultural constraints whereby many people were happy to work in labouring jobs, but there were also apprenticeships and full grants and fees were paid for University education. If you failed at school, for whatever reason, there were a plethora of access courses, so you could retake University school entrance qualifications.

Nowadays they have nothing.

The areas those kids live in are now ghettos, due to mass unemployment and underemployment in those communities, (the basic career choices are drug-dealing or the army) no chance of getting a transfer to another area due to sale of high-amenity council houses, no grants only 'loans' which means that if you are daft enough to go to university you are £100,000 in debt when you graduate, to get a degree which entitles you to work in a video rental shop.

The only social structure is the gang. Born into this world, with an inheritance of state dependency in a global order of international financial greed, corruption and shenanigans, self-serving politicians, crass exploitation media (those boorish, often talentless but highly entitled 'individuallsts' now serve as role models) and in a context of climate change and global warming, it's little wonder they are going crazy.

They have been abandoned; by the loser, broken 'parents' who bring them into the world for their own selfish paltry motivations, the apprentice jail school system which prevails in such areas, and the society in general which can offer them no way of making money other than selling cheap drugs to peers as miserable as they are.

This incident in Lochend was horrible; I'm only astonished that it doesn't happen more frequently.

You can build as many prisons as you like, treble the sentences, double the number of police so that every ned has their own private security guard, and it won't make a blind bit of difference. We've created a society in which a great number of people are permanently outside of it, while more are in constant fear/danger of sliding into that abyss.

Too many people, not enough work.

[vein]

What my point is that experiences like your friends, whilst undoubtedly true, are no worse than they were when I was 18 or 20 or 25, and almost certainly less common if the statistics (despite peterdouglas' protestations to the contrary) are to be believed. Each individual circumstance of crime automatically has an impact precisely because of its relative rarity.


Obviously I would have been too much of a young pup to have known what was going on when you were 18, 20 and 25 old yin :wink: However I do know of someone close to me who was involved in the Edinburgh gang scene when they were younger although granted they are at least 10 years older than you. I'll be sure to ask their opinion on this subject the next time I speak with them.

I think DBS has got it pretty much spot on in his last post.

[SlickShoes]

Apologies in advance for only quoting this part of your post but may I ask, have you ever lived in a neighbourhood where you had the type of gangs being discussed 'hanging around' on a regular basis?

I'm asking this because I have and I can assure you it is not pleasant. In the last area I was living in we had nothing but grief from the same kind of kids as these ones in Lochend. I'm quite a big guy myself but I will admit that I was always concious that every time I left the safety of my flat to go anywhere there was a part of me that was on edge until I knew none of these feral kids were milling around looking for something to relieve their boredom. I was in the area for a few years and watched these kids target individuals just to get some kicks. One of the worst occurances I saw of this (even though there was no violence) was a couple of kids walking up the street minding their own business and this gang of about 10 were screaming racial abuse at them, the poor kids were terrified and I was just glad it didnt get violent.

I quoted your point about tabloid headlines because I know that I and many others that post on this board know that this is not tabloid exaggeration. A recent example I will give you of what happened in east Edinburgh was this. A few guys of similar age to yourself left a pub on a main road so not in the middle of one of the 'dodgier' areas close by. One of these guys I was told was a big lad who the majority of folks would not mess around. They noticed a group of about 20 kids (ages ranging from 10-16) coming towards them, the outcome of this was the few guys ended up getting leathered by the kids and I believe at least one was in hospital with a fractured jaw. I've heard that second hand and I guess you could call that hearsay, I have no reason to doubt the validity of the story though given the person that told me about this.

To me stories like the above are real life and are what is going on now, there is no scare mongering to it. Its not like this is just an isolated incident too, I saw Steve-O post in this thread and I can remember him posting previously about a friend who got attacked in the car park of the local Morrisons on here. Thats just one other example but I'm sure I could pull together quite a list.

I believe the story i have bolded.

A few years ago my 2 mates were walking from one of there houses to a pub about a mile away in a town on the outskirts of edinburgh. 7pm at night during the summer still light.

They were approached by a group of 10 14-16 year olds, they said "what are you looking at" my mate said "nothing" and walked on, they then said "what did you say about my cousin" my mate again said "i said nothing" then the ten kids surrounded them and started to batter them, my mates had to stagger into the middle of the road to get them to stop only due to oncoming traffic.

Anytime im out on my own walking about or walking the dog im constantly half expecting someone to mess with me, even in the nicer areas there are groups of neds like this walking about that wouldnt think twice about kicking the **** out of you because they know the chances of them getting caught are nil.

[Twa Cairpets]

I believe the story i have bolded.

A few years ago my 2 mates were walking from one of there houses to a pub about a mile away in a town on the outskirts of edinburgh. 7pm at night during the summer still light.

They were approached by a group of 10 14-16 year olds, they said "what are you looking at" my mate said "nothing" and walked on, they then said "what did you say about my cousin" my mate again said "i said nothing" then the ten kids surrounded them and started to batter them, my mates had to stagger into the middle of the road to get them to stop only due to oncoming traffic.

Anytime im out on my own walking about or walking the dog im constantly half expecting someone to mess with me, even in the nicer areas there are groups of neds like this walking about that wouldnt think twice about kicking the **** out of you because they know the chances of them getting caught are nil.

I believe the story too, and that of your mate. I also know one of my sons mates, who is the quietest guy you're likely to meet, was walking home (in a nice area, too), and got a thump in the face needing stitches from a wee ned for daring to walk past.

As per my previous post, I'm not saying it doesnt happen, and I'm not saying that it doesnt require punishment. However, this thread itself is turning into an example of self-perpetuating the myth that it happens on a genuinely regular basis, is increasing and that you are constantly at risk of being at the sharp end. What do we have? one murder, 3 or 4 assualts, antisocial behaviour etc. Absolutely everyone knows of someone or has seen someone who has been the victim of crime - of course they do. If you're out in town and see a fight between two drunk bams outside a club, you and hundreds or thousands of others will have seen it. it doesnt mean that there are hundreds or thosuands of incidents in that area.

The way to think about it I think is every weekend there are literally millions of people who go out and do something, be it go for a walk, visit family, go for a bevvy, go to a party or club, go shopping, get a takeaway, watch or play sport - anything. Millions of people making millions of trips outside their front door. For the vast, vast overwhelmingly huge majority, nothing will happen. No knifing, no random assault from gangs of feral youths, no mugging. Just a safe and uneventful return to where you live.

Of course there are nasty little scrotes who are bad, and will do bad things if you are unlucky enough to cross paths, and these should, I agree be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. If they find whoever it is guilty of the murder of the poor guy from the OP, I wouldnt allow him out.

But while everyone has an anecdote of thuggery, while everyone has an example of crime, the very very bottom line is that as an individual, you will be very, very unlucky if it happens to you on any given night. So don't worry, take care, but live life without being paralysed by fear.

[matty_f]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10982613

4 charged, 2 aged 16, the others 14 and 15.

It's sickening. :bitchy:

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10982613

4 charged, 2 aged 16, the others 14 and 15.

It's sickening. :bitchy:

Surely you're happy they are going to court?

[Pete]

Sorry Peter but this is contradictory nonsense. You claim statistics are worthless/selective, but then suggest I do research on it. Every piece of research (such as the one Hibsbollah points out with a link) indicates reductions in crime levels. But to say that it's through informal interviews and word of mouth that the extent of this problem is highlighted is completely ludicrous. Are you seriously basing what you believe as fact on hearsay and anecdote? Would you really want to base policy, budgets, policing levels etc on what essentially is gossip? Think about it.

I obviously can't guess which R4 programmes you are referring to, but if they have any validity, they will have some sort of evidence or analysis to base their programme on.
You stated "Down South it's now common for gang members to gang rape female relatives or girlfriends of rival gang members". If you’re right, and it is “common”, this is a deeply appalling and should be much more widely known about. So I'll ask again, on what do you base this statement? Bear in mind you've said "common occurrence" which suggests a lot. Obviously even if its happened once it’s a terrible thing, but the way you have stated it, deliberately or otherwise, is to suggest that it an imminent and serious danger to many people. It's not, unless you can direct me to any evidence to the contrary. Even the fact that you can (in a quite blasé manner but with absolute conviction) state this as an incontrovertible truth will contribute to the list of things people will be needlessly scared of.

When I said "do some research" I meant try and read some articles on the problem and listen to some radio shows about it...I wasn't talking about researching statistics.

There were two radio programs about the subject. One was highlighting the problem of sexual violence towards female gang members and the other centered around a drop-in centre for female gang members. There were some pretty horrific first-hand accounts of what goes on....and yes, some did say it was a relatively new phenomenom and quite common. Other parts of the program highlighted the fact that statistics aren't really available as these attacks rarely get reported to the police. They are dealt with "in-house", as most other issues are. Also, the statistics on sexual crime don't tell people if they're gang related or not.
After listening to these programs and reading an article about it I am in no doubt these crimes do actually happen. I don't know precisely how common they are but the gang-members say it's fairly common so all you can really do is take their word for it.
I'm sorry I can't point you in the direction of the programs or article as I'm sure you'd find them fascinating yet disturbing.

It wasn't put there to add to the list of reasons why people should be scared to go out. It was more about highlighting the lack of respect and lawlessness that certain young people now have. As the victims of this are very specific it doesn't really effect the vast majority of our lives so I suppose it shouldn't really count when you try and analyse what risk you are at from crime in general.




It strikes me, potentially incorrectly i'll admit, that any evidence that does not conform to your view of the world is automatically guilty of being fiddled or manipulated. I've actually looked at some of the statistics (have you, or is your opinion on their validity second hand?), and you know what? It’s clear that some areas of crime have seen a rise. Are these wrong too, or are they ok because they show what you want?

To be honest I don't look at crime-rate statistics because I don't trust them and I certainly don't use them to enforce any of my arguments. I've heard from serving police officers that they aren't accurate because crimes can be recorded in a number of ways to suit certain agendas. They might well have been exaggerating or have agendas themselves for all I know but I guess I'll never really know so my default position is not to trust them.
And no, I'm not going to name them.



I draw my conclusions from evidence rather than tabloid headlines. I mix with a wide range of people socially and professionally, and always have, and I’m pretty sure they are in the real world. I’ll go out at night and have a beer or two without any concern whatsoever. If I want to go out looking for trouble, sure I’ll find it, but I don’t because, frankly, why would I? There are areas of Edinburgh I would probably think twice about going out in, sure, but as I have absolutely no desire to go out in these areas it doesn’t really impact on my life one iota.

What a bizarre statement. You can have absolutely no idea if its true, you have no idea what I do or what people I know or mix with, or what I talk about when I’m with them and it’s absolutely impossible to justify or prove.
But it’s an utterly moot point anyway. You’re suggesting I’m insulting peoples intelligence by alluding to the fact that people make decisions based on gut reaction rather than considered opinion. That’s not insulting anyone’s intelligence at all – that’s what people do because they are people. What I am stating that constant exposure to news of uncommon but extreme violence, to a daily drip of sensational headlines from the red tops and the Express/Mail will make people think that things are much worse than they actually are.

I'll concede that the media do play a part in some people's opinions and there is a general exaggeration of the problem by some outlets...but the comment was to highlight the fact that my opinions certainly aren't. They are from personal experiences and some very bitter ones...one in particular that was far too similar to the case of the poor delivery driver. Cases like this infuriate me and perhaps my original post was slightly over the top but personally, it's an emotive subject.



I think I’d rather be on this side of the fence than living in a state of perpetual fear for no reason.

I'll retract my statements accusing you of "burying your head in the sand" and "not living in the real world". I had you down as one of these people who just didn't believe anything bad goes on because it isn't right in front of them or isn't put to them in black and white but after reading your later posts I'll admit I was wrong.

You probably best to live your life that way...not letting horror stories or past experiences cloud your judgement too much

[Hanny]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10988214

Charged with Culpable Homicide, all 4 remanded in custody.

[matty_f]

Surely you're happy they are going to court?

Not sure if you're just trying an ill-advised attempt at humour, or if you've misjudged me completely, but yes, I'm happy that they're going to court.

What's sickening is their ages and the fact that they could do something like that to a middle-aged guy,

[I'm_cabbaged]

Not sure if you're just trying an ill-advised attempt at humour, or if you've misjudged me completely, but yes, I'm happy that they're going to court.

What's sickening is their ages and the fact that they could do something like that to a middle-aged guy,

It's frightening and quite sad really, 14 year old's should be looking forward to school this week not looking forward to a potential lifetime in institutions. :bitchy:

Not that I feel sorry for them personally, just a sad state of affairs.

[matty_f]

It's frightening and quite sad really, 14 year old's should be looking forward to school this week not looking forward to a potential lifetime in institutions. :bitchy:

Not that I feel sorry for them personally, just a sad state of affairs.

:agree:agree totally with that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not sure if you're just trying an ill-advised attempt at humour, or if you've misjudged me completely, but yes, I'm happy that they're going to court.

What's sickening is their ages and the fact that they could do something like that to a middle-aged guy,

No I was just wondering how long it would be before you stopped being so morally outraged and started to think things through. :duck: (That was an ill advised attempt at humour btw)

Is it not possible that it was an accident, or at least that they didn't intend the guy to die when they started to hassle him? I know that's scant consolation, but at least it can move us closer to seeing them as human beings who * up instead of psychotic monsters.

If you start to see them as silly laddies that pushed their luck too far, it might make a wee bit less sickening, no?

[ArabHibee]

No I was just wondering how long it would be before you stopped being so morally outraged and started to think things through. :duck: (That was an ill advised attempt at humour btw)

Is it not possible that it was an accident, or at least that they didn't intend the guy to die when they started to hassle him? I know that's scant consolation, but at least it can move us closer to seeing them as human beings who *****ed up instead of psychotic monsters.

If you start to see them as silly laddies that pushed their luck too far, it might make a wee bit less sickening, no?

Not really, no. Considering they were ransacking the guy's vehicle as he lay there, dead.

[matty_f]

No I was just wondering how long it would be before you stopped being so morally outraged and started to think things through. :duck: (That was an ill advised attempt at humour btw)

Is it not possible that it was an accident, or at least that they didn't intend the guy to die when they started to hassle him? I know that's scant consolation, but at least it can move us closer to seeing them as human beings who *****ed up instead of psychotic monsters.

If you start to see them as silly laddies that pushed their luck too far, it might make a wee bit less sickening, no?

To be honest, no it wouldn't make it less sickening. If the guy had survived the attack (which I'm assuming was 4 against 1), I'd still have been sickened that it happened.

I cannot think of any way to make apologies for what these kids have done, regardless of whether or not they intended to kill the guy.

They have no compassion for human life, as far as I'm concerned, and the fact that they'd attack someone for nothing shows that they probably are close to being psychotic monsters (to join in with the hyperbole).

[Twa Cairpets]

When I said "do some research" I meant try and read some articles on the problem and listen to some radio shows about it...I wasn't talking about researching statistics.

This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8530000/8530932.stm)might be the programme. Disturbing reading, and I'm sure the broadcast first-hand accounts were harrowing. From the point of view of the discussion though, from a resource allocation position if no other, how would you begin to decide as a police force or other authority how much time and manpower you would dedicate to tackling it? It is clearly an appalling crime, but following the links within the article to the original "Race on the Agenda (http://www.rota.org.uk/pages/FVV.aspx)" commissioned report "Female Voice in Violence" (http://www.rota.org.uk/downloads/FVV%20TRIF%20REPORT%20FINAL%20FINAL.pdf) source, the picture I find even here is misleading. In the media reports on the BBC and other links like the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jun/02/carlene-firmin-girls-gang-violence-campaigner) the findings are stated along the lines of "Interviews with more than 350 women and girls by the charity Race on the Agenda revealed the use of rape to punish girl gang members and relatives of rivals." it does not say all 350 were raped, or how many were, but it certainly leaves the reader (and I suspect the listener) with the idea that its 350 women suffering, at least. Even the final report which I've looked through does not say, as far as I can see, what the actual incidence is. When you read or hear this type of thing your mind hooks on "rape" "350" "gang punishment", so it ommediately becomes a horrendous issue, particularly if the unquantifiable opinion of "common" is chucked in within the report.

I'm not minimising the horrendous nature of it, and the wider report linked to above does come up with some sensible on-the-ground suggestions, but what grabs the headlines? The extreme, the unusual and the sensational.


To be honest I don't look at crime-rate statistics because I don't trust them and I certainly don't use them to enforce any of my arguments. I've heard from serving police officers that they aren't accurate because crimes can be recorded in a number of ways to suit certain agendas. They might well have been exaggerating or have agendas themselves for all I know but I guess I'll never really know so my default position is not to trust them.
And no, I'm not going to name them. I would have no desire for you to name them, but the analysis of data is the only way to formulate policy. The question of trust is also kind of moot, because it is the only information that really counts. The scrutiny such data in the modern world (thanks primarily to the internet) is subject to is huge: By policy makers, pressure groups and the general public.


I'll concede that the media do play a part in some people's opinions and there is a general exaggeration of the problem by some outlets...but the comment was to highlight the fact that my opinions certainly aren't. They are from personal experiences and some very bitter ones...one in particular that was far too similar to the case of the poor delivery driver. Cases like this infuriate me and perhaps my original post was slightly over the top but personally, it's an emotive subject. Fair enough, personal experience is bound to colour your opinion.


I'll retract my statements accusing you of "burying your head in the sand" and "not living in the real world". I had you down as one of these people who just didn't believe anything bad goes on because it isn't right in front of them or isn't put to them in black and white but after reading your later posts I'll admit I was wrong.

You probably best to live your life that way...not letting horror stories or past experiences cloud your judgement too much

Fair play, fully accepted.

[khib70]

No I was just wondering how long it would be before you stopped being so morally outraged and started to think things through. :duck: (That was an ill advised attempt at humour btw)

Is it not possible that it was an accident, or at least that they didn't intend the guy to die when they started to hassle him? I know that's scant consolation, but at least it can move us closer to seeing them as human beings who *****ed up instead of psychotic monsters.

If you start to see them as silly laddies that pushed their luck too far, it might make a wee bit less sickening, no?
Nonsense. An innocent working guy going about his business is dead as a direct consequence of your "silly wee laddies'" actions.

As he lay dead or dying, they robbed both his person and his vehicle. They didn't say "Oh God, what have we done, someone call an ambulance". They didn't even simply run away. They coldly and cynically stole everything they could get their hands on from the victim. It can't get any more sickening and MF, like the majority of us, is entitled to be morally outraged.

I'm sure the victim's family are much comforted by the fact that the liberal obsession with "understanding" the perpetrators has surfaced again.

[12AlbionPlace]

Nonsense. An innocent working guy going about his business is dead as a direct consequence of your "silly wee laddies'" actions.

As he lay dead or dying, they robbed both his person and his vehicle. They didn't say "Oh God, what have we done, someone call an ambulance". They didn't even simply run away. They coldly and cynically stole everything they could get their hands on from the victim. It can't get any more sickening and MF, like the majority of us, is entitled to be morally outraged.

I'm sure the victim's family are much comforted by the fact that the liberal obsession with "understanding" the perpetrators has surfaced again.

Spot on khib, I can't quite work out FR motives here, perhaps just fishing for a reaction.

I may be way off the mark but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that these "silly laddies" are known to the police through some previous misdemeanours.

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

The long and short of it is that these we guys think they are hard when they go about in their gangs.

You will never have bother off these ***ts if it is just them. Because they are nothing.

The sooner we have licence to give these idiots a slap without worrying about jail, the better.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-10982613

4 charged, 2 aged 16, the others 14 and 15.

It's sickening. :bitchy:

...which shows that neds do not 'wander around doing what they like with nobody doing anything to stop them', as we are often told. Society hasn't broken down, and there are consequences to face for your actions.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I can see FR's side on this one, but I don't agree. In life you have to suffer the consequences of your actions. These kids attacked and killed a man. Whether they meant to kill him or seriously harm is kind of irrelevant. The outcome was death, the penalty should be severe.

I am all for trying to prevent kids from going bad, trying to understand and change them etc, but once they do something like this they need to be taught the toughest lesson of and have a serious prison sentence imposed on them.

Providing ofcourse they are found guilty. Lets not assume guilt, the plod have got it wrong before:wink:

[khib70]

...which shows that neds do not 'wander around doing what they like with nobody doing anything to stop them', as we are often told. Society hasn't broken down, and there are consequences to face for your actions.
Hmm. Possibly, but I think MF (and most of us) would prefer it if someone stopped them before they kill somebody.

It's fairly evident from living in this area that there are groups of youths around who believe themselves to be untouchable. That's probably why they felt safe killing and robbing someone in broad daylight on a busy road intersection.

Society hasn't broken down. There's too much "society" and not enough individual responsibility.

[hibsbollah]

It's fairly evident from living in this area that there are groups of youths around who believe themselves to be untouchable. That's probably why they felt safe killing and robbing someone in broad daylight on a busy road intersection.



In which case they'll have now got a shock, no?

[Twa Cairpets]

The long and short of it is that these we guys think they are hard when they go about in their gangs.

You will never have bother off these ***ts if it is just them. Because they are nothing.

The sooner we have licence to give these idiots a slap without worrying about jail, the better.

The "we" here being all right minded people (or at least people who agree with exactly the same parameters as you for administering street justice).

under your rules, you catch a laddie spraying grafitti. You then go and "give him a slap". He then doesnt like the slap, and gets his pals together to come and kick seven shades out of you. Or maybe you slap him a bit enthusiatically and break his jaw, or give him stitches. Or kill him. Are you still above the law?

Sorry K_S, mob rule is never the right answer.


Hmm. Possibly, but I think MF (and most of us) would prefer it if someone stopped them before they kill somebody...
Society hasn't broken down. There's too much "society" and not enough individual responsibility.

Thats an easy and appealling way to look at it, and on the face of it is impossible to argue against. But how do you do it? "That kid looks like a bad 'un. I bet he'll stab someone soon. Better put him away just in case, eh". I suspect that's not precisely what you're suggesting, but your post is contradictory. The "someone" who should have stopped them is them by understanding the difference between right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable, and thats a long road. From whenever it starts in earnest there will be casualties along the way, but depressing though it may be to admit, there isnt, in my opinion, a quick, simple effective solution that will stop this type of thing happening overnight.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Nonsense. An innocent working guy going about his business is dead as a direct consequence of your "silly wee laddies'" actions.

As he lay dead or dying, they robbed both his person and his vehicle. They didn't say "Oh God, what have we done, someone call an ambulance". They didn't even simply run away. They coldly and cynically stole everything they could get their hands on from the victim. It can't get any more sickening and MF, like the majority of us, is entitled to be morally outraged.

I'm sure the victim's family are much comforted by the fact that the liberal obsession with "understanding" the perpetrators has surfaced again.

So what are we going to do about it? Because if we are foaming at the mouth, we aren't thinking.

By the way, the world can get a hell of a lot more sickening.

ps I am heart sorry for that poor guy and his family. It must be hard enough to lose a parent and partner but the way it happened just is not fair.

[hibsdaft]

i'd be interested to know how many times the victim and the business he worked at called the Police over the last eight months that they were apparently being persecuted, according to the Loch Inn bar woman quoted in the story and what sort of action the Police took subsequently.

[matty_f]

So what are we going to do about it? Because if we are foaming at the mouth, we aren't thinking.

By the way, the world can get a hell of a lot more sickening.

ps I am heart sorry for that poor guy and his family. It must be hard enough to lose a parent and partner but the way it happened just is not fair.

Who's foaming at the mouth about it? In fact, IMHO folk SHOULD be getting annoyed at this sort of thing, it should be something that outrages people, or are you suggesting that we become desensitised to this kind of thing (on account of worse things happening elsewhere)?

It's maybe because I'm a parent to a young family that this touched such a nerve with me, but those teenagers leave the guy's kid(s) and widow to pick up the pieces. Imagine being a kid and having to grow up dealing with the fact that your dad was killed for absolutely no reason, so some kids could have a cheap thrill.

If you're not sickened by that then you have a problem, IMHO.

[Gerard]

These people are ****. I feel very angry that a man who was trying to earn an honest living has been murdered by ****. I would give them a holiday in IRAQ:wink:
Gerard

[khib70]

Who's foaming at the mouth about it? In fact, IMHO folk SHOULD be getting annoyed at this sort of thing, it should be something that outrages people, or are you suggesting that we become desensitised to this kind of thing (on account of worse things happening elsewhere)?

It's maybe because I'm a parent to a young family that this touched such a nerve with me, but those teenagers leave the guy's kid(s) and widow to pick up the pieces. Imagine being a kid and having to grow up dealing with the fact that your dad was killed for absolutely no reason, so some kids could have a cheap thrill.

If you're not sickened by that then you have a problem, IMHO.
:top marks
No one is foaming at the mouth, as FR rather crudely and smugly put it. Just questioning the mentality where the first reaction is to dig up some excuse for the perpetrators.

You don't have to be hysterical to be outraged by a group of people fatally injuring someone, then cooly going through his pockets as he lies dying. It's possible to quite calmly and rationally despise anyone capable of that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Who's foaming at the mouth about it? In fact, IMHO folk SHOULD be getting annoyed at this sort of thing, it should be something that outrages people, or are you suggesting that we become desensitised to this kind of thing (on account of worse things happening elsewhere)?

It's maybe because I'm a parent to a young family that this touched such a nerve with me, but those teenagers leave the guy's kid(s) and widow to pick up the pieces. Imagine being a kid and having to grow up dealing with the fact that your dad was killed for absolutely no reason, so some kids could have a cheap thrill.

If you're not sickened by that then you have a problem, IMHO.

The more I think about it, the angrier I get at these little bullies. I hope they are given plenty of time to think about what they have done.

I have to say it doesn't sicken me - and as you say maybe it's my problem, maybe I've become to desenitised to this sort of thing, it's been going on all my life as far as I can see. I do feel for those kids, I said earlier that it must be awful, and a terrible thing to happen in their lives.

I just wish people would get as angry about the big injustices in the world as the little local ones that touch their hearts. There's terrible things happening all over the world - but I suppose if we stopped to think about them, we'd never sleep.

[matty_f]

The more I think about it, the angrier I get at these little bullies. I hope they are given plenty of time to think about what they have done.

I have to say it doesn't sicken me - and as you say maybe it's my problem, maybe I've become to desenitised to this sort of thing, it's been going on all my life as far as I can see. I do feel for those kids, I said earlier that it must be awful, and a terrible thing to happen in their lives.

I just wish people would get as angry about the big injustices in the world as the little local ones that touch their hearts. There's terrible things happening all over the world - but I suppose if we stopped to think about them, we'd never sleep.

I think folk do get as angry about the big injustices in the world though - it's not an exclusive thing. You make a big assumption to suggest that people don't care about them, or try to do anything about them.

edit - the bit in bold - again, I think you're being sarcastic here, and that devalues your point, IMHO. If you want to discuss the subject do so, but not by trying to dismiss a different view with sarcasm. If your best argument against what is being discussed is to do the typed equivalent of repeating what is being said in a silly voice then it's probably time to step away from the debate.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think folk do get as angry about the big injustices in the world though - it's not an exclusive thing. You make a big assumption to suggest that people don't care about them, or try to do anything about them.

edit - the bit in bold - again, I think you're being sarcastic here, and that devalues your point, IMHO. If you want to discuss the subject do so, but not by trying to dismiss a different view with sarcasm. If your best argument against what is being discussed is to do the typed equivalent of repeating what is being said in a silly voice then it's probably time to step away from the debate.

Not being sarcastic, maybe it's just taken a few days to sink in. They are little bullies who think it is big to hurt other people. I hope that they take responsibility, and really think about what they have done. Fat chance though, is my bet.

I do recognise that people do try to sort out the bigger problems as well. The world can be a cr*ppy place, and maybe it's just got to me more than it should have.

[matty_f]

Not being sarcastic, maybe it's just taken a few days to sink in. They are little bullies who think it is big to hurt other people. I hope that they take responsibility, and really think about what they have done. Fat chance though, is my bet.

I do recognise that people do try to sort out the bigger problems as well. The world can be a cr*ppy place, and maybe it's just got to me more than it should have.

Apologies for not giving you the benefit of the doubt on the sarcasm front, FR. I take back the edited part of my last post.:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Apologies for not giving you the benefit of the doubt on the sarcasm front, FR. I take back the edited part of my last post.:agree:

No worries mate - if the cap fits and all that. Tbh, I think the thing that made me more angry about all this was driving through Lochend yesterday and seeing the flowers.

[Dashing Bob S]

Hmm. Possibly, but I think MF (and most of us) would prefer it if someone stopped them before they kill somebody.

It's fairly evident from living in this area that there are groups of youths around who believe themselves to be untouchable. That's probably why they felt safe killing and robbing someone in broad daylight on a busy road intersection.

Society hasn't broken down. There's too much "society" and not enough individual responsibility.

Couldn't disagree more. 'Society' is talked about at the point of rhetoric, just because its seen as a good thing, a bit like 'family'. It's okay to pursue social policies that wreck those entities, provided you pay lip service to them.

Individual responsibility with recourse to society and community, (which it has been over the last thirty years with the relentless promotion of 'individualism') is nothing but a narcissistic celebration of the self and a relentlessly promotion of self-interest above everything else.

The thugs at Lochend are only adopting the same mindset as the bankers and financiers who have pulled our economy into the toilet with their greed is good ethos, the self-centred sense of entitlement and disregard for anyone else. The thing that stops people behaving in that way with regard to other humans, is the empathetic sense that their lives have value, and are somehow connected to your own, through the community and society you are both part of. These thugs placed no value on that man's life, because the only responsibility they feel they have s to themselves.

I doubt they have ever been part of society, ever known the discipline of work, order and true family belonging through which individual responsibility is learned. And this is because we made the political decision to exclude them and their ilk at some vague time back in the late 70's, when we ran out of ground wars to fight and it became too expensive and restrictive to individuals who 'wanted to get on'.

'Society' has become an obnoxious word since its mealy-mouthed appropriation by the Cameron's and Blairs of this world. And this is because people can see that the only real society they are interested in are the Eton and Fettes ones.
We can huff and puff all we like, but until we rebuild an inclusive society, all the sentencing and punishment in the world won't stop things like this happening.

[hibsboy90]

I think the problem lies with the justice system and sentencing.

The police seem to do a really good job in breaking up trouble when they're around and tend to arrive reasonably quickly when there is trouble. But when the ***** get to court they get next to nothing.

Here's a good example and this is one of my mates...

He was going down the road to his house after a night out and there were some people drinking in a house about 6 doors away from his and they asked if he wanted to come in for a few drinks, so he did.

He went in and two guys tried to set about him so he got out the house and then tried to get the guys to come out in the street fro a fight. When they realised they were going to lose the fight they just started they phoned the police and said he had chased on of them for 3/4 of a mile and had a knife.

I should add that he never had a knife and he plays football 3 times a week and is one of the fittest/fastest guy I know, and trust me, if he wanted to catch them or do them in then he could have but that's beside the point.

He got 110 hours commnuity service. He pled guilty because he was on his own and they had 'witnesses' and he was told he could potentially be remanded if he took it to trial.

Now, I know this is my mate, but for someone to get 110 hours of community service after pleading guilty to possession of a knife whilst trying to fight with people is a joke.

As I say, he didn't have a knife and has no reason to lie to me given that I've been one of his mates for 20 years.


Twocarpets, I read that with DeGraaf and there is just a complete lack of common decency for others.

The little schemies around my way are getting worse by the minute., in the last two months I've seen two different 14 year olds with e's and mephedrone. WTF!

My point was aimed at the justice system, not the police but I agree with you completely on personal responsibility aspect. My view on the justice system is that 1, it acts as a deterrent and 2, if you commit the crime you will be punished for it properly. I've said on another thread that some people will not be deterred regardless of the potential punishment i.e. serial killers etc.

However, I think that the justice system has a duty to protect people and that it fails badly at that. Take my example above. This was my friend and he was deemed guilty by the court and received 110 hours of community service. For someone found guilty of being in possession of a knife and threatening to harm others that is pathetic IMO.

I've read that there are only 80,000 prison places in the UK and we've got all these other fluffy alternatives because 'we' (the government) haven't wanted to spend more on jails for years (part of the MOJ budget as I understand it). I feel that crimes are being managed down to work within our existing limits rather than expand them and punish people as they deserve.

People seriously can't say there's not more than 80,000 serious criminals in a population of 60,000,000+.

Of course, none of that should take away personal responsibility but I do attribute some level of blame to the lax justice system for the way no one gives a **** about their actions.
Ignoring the rest of the thread, and reading the arguments with interest, i must come back to the scenario of woody's mate.

You cannot complain about the justice system doing there jog wrong in this circumstance. Whether the easiest option is to plead guilty or not, HE PLED GUILTY!

The courts and now historical records believe that he was carrying a knife, that he chased some guys down the road and threatened them with a knife. If he didn't do it, and believe so adamantly, then don't plead guilty.

Knife crime is on the rise, and as such the courts don't want to act softly on it, so that they deter crime, as you previously said you want the justice system to do. What else are the courts and the system meant to do when faced with an admittance of guilt for a knife crime?

You say in your second post the court 'deemed him guilty', i thought you said he had pled guilty, so which is it? As for the punishment, seems fair enough, maybe a bit soft no? Removing the fact that he's a friend, the court upon his guilty pleading think he's just another bam waving knifes about and threatening people with them. Personally i'd be disappointed if someone got off lighter than 110h Community service for that.

He should have at least given it a chance in court, the truth usually rises to the surface. If the witnesses were jakeballs and your mate composed then he'd have a good chance.

Now im not saying your pal is guilty, not at all, but what else were the courts supposed to do when faced with an admittance to a knife crime.

In hindsight, i wouldn't really enter a party in an unknown location on just my tod unless i had a pretty good idea of the characters likely to be inside. And if hassle happened, certainly don't offer for a fight. You have no pals at the party to defend you, cut your losses and go home, don't defend your honour when you have no mates and only a house full of unknown folk around you, who are more likely to know, and back up the other party.

[ArabHibee]

Ignoring the rest of the thread, and reading the arguments with interest, i must come back to the scenario of woody's mate.

You cannot complain about the justice system doing there jog wrong in this circumstance. Whether the easiest option is to plead guilty or not, HE PLED GUILTY!

The courts and now historical records believe that he was carrying a knife, that he chased some guys down the road and threatened them with a knife. If he didn't do it, and believe so adamantly, then don't plead guilty.

Knife crime is on the rise, and as such the courts don't want to act softly on it, so that they deter crime, as you previously said you want the justice system to do. What else are the courts and the system meant to do when faced with an admittance of guilt for a knife crime?

You say in your second post the court 'deemed him guilty', i thought you said he had pled guilty, so which is it? As for the punishment, seems fair enough, maybe a bit soft no? Removing the fact that he's a friend, the court upon his guilty pleading think he's just another bam waving knifes about and threatening people with them. Personally i'd be disappointed if someone got off lighter than 110h Community service for that.

He should have at least given it a chance in court, the truth usually rises to the surface. If the witnesses were jakeballs and your mate composed then he'd have a good chance.

Now im not saying your pal is guilty, not at all, but what else were the courts supposed to do when faced with an admittance to a knife crime.

In hindsight, i wouldn't really enter a party in an unknown location on just my tod unless i had a pretty good idea of the characters likely to be inside. And if hassle happened, certainly don't offer for a fight. You have no pals at the party to defend you, cut your losses and go home, don't defend your honour when you have no mates and only a house full of unknown folk around you, who are more likely to know, and back up the other party.

Fair post, apart from the bit in bold. You've not had much dealings with being in court have you? Sometimes you are on a hiding to nothing when its your word against 2 or 3 others. Saying that, I would have taken my chances and pled not guilty.

[Steve-O]

I think Woody's point was that his friend got off too LIGHTLY, not the other way round.

He is saying that while his mate was actually innocent, he took the rap anyway, and was probably expecting a harsher sentence than he got.

[Killiehibbie]

Fair post, apart from the bit in bold. You've not had much dealings with being in court have you? Sometimes you are on a hiding to nothing when its your word against 2 or 3 others. Saying that, I would have taken my chances and pled not guilty.The truth does not matter in a courtroom. They are full of dirty, rotten, lying ***** and that's just the lawyers.