State of Scottish football - how bad is it?

[SneakersO'Toole]

Once again this week, Scottish teams have been given a masterclass by European opposition. Putting aside all the discussions about Yogi's tactics and what not for a moment, what can we say about our national game after once again we witness inferior performances from Scottish teams in Europe?

Now we all know the Scottish game has stagnated, but are we actually going backwards? Time and time again smaller nations are proving they have what it takes to develop the game of football within their own country, only for Scotland to be left miles behind.

What has gone so fundamentally wrong? How can we go from producing world class players like Dalgleish, Law and Bremner to the odd player who is snapped by an English Premiership side?

Can we start to move forward again? Or is the hole we are in so deep that we'll never catch up with others who have moved with the times?

It will be interesting to see what action comes from this 1000page report Henry McLeish is writing. So far, we've seen or heard nothing.

Thoughts/opinions?

[iwasthere1972]

Once again this week, Scottish teams have been given a masterclass by European opposition. Putting aside all the discussions about Yogi's tactics and what not for a moment, what can we say about our national game after once again we witness inferior performances from Scottish teams in Europe?

Now we all know the Scottish game has stagnated, but are we actually going backwards? Time and time again smaller nations are proving they have what it takes to develop the game of football within their own country, only for Scotland to be left miles behind.

What has gone so fundamentally wrong? How can we go from producing world class players like Dalgleish, Law and Brebner to the odd player who is snapped by an English Premiership side?

Can we start to move forward again? Or is the hole we are in so deep that we'll never catch up with others who have moved with the times?

It will be interesting to see what action comes from this 1000page report Henry McLeish is writing. So far, we've seen or heard nothing.

Thoughts/opinions?

No idea but Brebner. :wink:

[SneakersO'Toole]

No idea but Brebner. :wink:

He did get one cap did he not... :wink:

[Jack]

One of the common factors in us not doing well (I’m not saying this is the bee all and end all by the way) is that Scots clubs are constantly pumped out by clubs from ‘lesser’ countries who start their leagues earlier – Maribor are 2 league games [and I think maybe a cup game] into their season. Elfsborg were something like 9 or ten games into their season when we played them a couple of years ago and lets not even consider the embarrassment at the beginning of last season, Aberdeen and Motherwell.

Maribors 2 games might not sound a lot but I’d be prepared to bet it wouldn’t have been 3 – 0 last night if the game had taken place in a month, six weeks time. And there's no way Elfsborg would have beaten us 10 or so games into our season.

It’s a pretty basic thing but the SPL will NOT start the season earlier as the OF often go on lucrative tours at the time the league would be starting.

So the first part of my plan would be to disband the OF and bring the season forward at least 4 weeks.

[Black Kyle]

IMO, you can take your pick from:

players not wanting to do 2 x sessions a day
players thinking they have developed into the full article and losing potential
no real competition in the SPL
better players being cherry-picked by the Old Firm
coaching methods and routines not adapting to the need for more ball work
a 'do not lose' mentality
the SFA not investing in getting back to real grass-roots
emphasis on winning in Boys Clubs
kids have a bigger range of options in what to do now

There's a debate on the state of Scottish Football on Real Radio (I know) as part of the Festival of Politics.

[steviecarnie]

Thoughts/opinions?

The whole game needs an overhaul, starting from school age, all cups should be banned until age 15/16, this attitude of winning is everything isnt good for the game.

We as a nation should be trying to get football schools run by community coaches/team bosses and even parents at weekends for ages 8 - 12/13 - with no matches for these kids but coaching again on technique and skill. School football should be abandoned, even tho i had amazing time at school football winning tropheys and actually every game we played (bar our 2nd last one) from p4 - p7 - only one person from that group of players has made it as a professional which is pretty bad. Imo matches shouldnt start till secondary school age. (12-13) and even then they should be 7 a side games to encourage continued focus on passing and technique.

hope this comes across like it the idea does in my head.

[Green Man]

Scottish football is in a horrendous state. The whole league structure is flat and stale. I've been getting bored with it for a couple of years and now it's at the stage where I can't be bothered watching at all. Teams playing each other four times a season does not make for entertainment. Restructuring the leagues and opening up the bottom to a pyramid setup would be the best thing that could happen to the professional game.

At the same time there's the issue of where are the talented players coming through. Admittedly I'm unfamiliar with youth football in Scotland, but it does appear that more needs to be done to encourage young players to develop their skills. If a player is playing professionally, having come through the boys and youth ranks, surely he should be able to do the basics like control a ball and pass it ten yards - skills which appear to be missing from a lot of the players in the SPL today.

Sadly, both the above points will probably face the same barrier and that is the self-interested men in charge of the Scottish game. I don't know why there is a need to have three separate governing bodies, all of whom are represented by men who appear more interested in what they can take out of football than what they can put in. For years the SFA and SFL have been run by men who want to enjoy jolly away days and lunches with former players, giving secondary thought to football's needs. The SPL is full of chairmen who are resistant to losing revenue from games against the Old Firm and therefore unlikely to vote for expanding the structure.

I don't see any solution on the horizon, and it means that, sadly, I'll be going to very few games in the immediate future.

[patlowe]

Scottish football is in a horrendous state. The whole league structure is flat and stale. I've been getting bored with it for a couple of years and now it's at the stage where I can't be bothered watching at all. Teams playing each other four times a season does not make for entertainment. Restructuring the leagues and opening up the bottom to a pyramid setup would be the best thing that could happen to the professional game.

At the same time there's the issue of where are the talented players coming through. Admittedly I'm unfamiliar with youth football in Scotland, but it does appear that more needs to be done to encourage young players to develop their skills. If a player is playing professionally, having come through the boys and youth ranks, surely he should be able to do the basics like control a ball and pass it ten yards - skills which appear to be missing from a lot of the players in the SPL today.

Sadly, both the above points will probably face the same barrier and that is the self-interested men in charge of the Scottish game. I don't know why there is a need to have three separate governing bodies, all of whom are represented by men who appear more interested in what they can take out of football than what they can put in. For years the SFA and SFL have been run by men who want to enjoy jolly away days and lunches with former players, giving secondary thought to football's needs. The SPL is full of chairmen who are resistant to losing revenue from games against the Old Firm and therefore unlikely to vote for expanding the structure.

I don't see any solution on the horizon, and it means that, sadly, I'll be going to very few games in the immediate future.

I heard Craig Brown on the Off the Ball recently and he was happy to laugh and joke about the fact that the Largs coaching courses are just glorified piss-ups. We're still stuck in the dark ages!

The ENTIRE system needs reworked from top to bottom. It's not gonna happen though, particularly during a time when public spending is being reduced radically over the next 10-20 years. On a wider note, what irks me is that we went through a period of economic boom from the late-90s onwards. Why wasn't any of the country's wealth put into youth football and sporting infrastructure? Take the 2008 Olympics. The BOA received a good bit of funding a few years back and the British Olympic team came back with a barrelload of medals. You get what you put in. Lets see how they get on now that funding is being taken away by the Tories. You can't trust football clubs to deal with the structural problems with football, they're too busy succumbing to the wage demands of players and agents.

[TheEastTerrace]

How bad? Dead and buried. *****ed. In the gutter. We are a joke nation when it comes to football.

I could list all the ills here but what's the point? It'll never change because of the self-serving parasites who work at the game's upper echelons and the dominance of two football clubs who are an immovable barrier to any change in the Scottish game.

Better off buying a pay per view package and watching the EPL and other European leagues. Far better quality and costs you less per month than one Cat B at Easter Road. In the current times, a no brainer.

Yep, they'll call me a deserter and a crap supporter but hey, what's the point wasting your time, money, energy when the game has fallen into the abyss?

Sad and depressing. Hibs and football were once a big part of my life, going to the games with my mates and the banter. Now, I hardly feel anything. Have become apathetic, disillusioned and cynical. Sorry, just can't spend my energy when there's bigger things in life to worry about.

Scottish Football RIP.

[Joe Baker II]

Think we are at lowest ebb ever now, 3rd bad season in a row for our clubs, albeit after some good years in the 2000s - when we still had to cope with playing early season qualifiers. We had bad years in the 1990s with our clubs but at least Scotland team qualified for 4 out of 5 tournaments then. At least reversion to 4 teams in Europe will reduce risk of early humiliations and I agree we need to look at timing of season, inconvenient as that will be for many fans.

Incredible that many Hibs fans even 2-3 years ago were concerned about Old Firm (and even Hearts briefly) progressing in Europe because of increased financial gap that would develop even though it meant more money in Scottish football - how one longs for these days now.

Moff 1875 - whatever you do do not pay for English football, its influence has been the most cancerous of all on the Scottish game. For me it is going to be junior football this season, one could add the building of a soullless new stand at ER as something putting me off as much as bad results.

[HibeeEmma]

Pretty bad. I'm not sure what is worse - the players we have at our disposal or the management teams who are being brought in. I'd guess the latter because there are other countries who have a smaller population, less idolised players but can win a fair amount of games.

[Black Kyle]

One of the few positives seems to be that most teams, including the OF, are now dependent on
bringing through young players into the first team with the loss of the costly journeyman foreign
pros who were only there, with a few exceptons, at the end of their careers or to boost bank
balances.

Today's Under 19 player getting in the first team is tomorrow's £2 million transfer.................
and then it starts all over again.

[lobster]

One of the common factors in us not doing well (I’m not saying this is the bee all and end all by the way) is that Scots clubs are constantly pumped out by clubs from ‘lesser’ countries who start their leagues earlier – Maribor are 2 league games [and I think maybe a cup game] into their season. Elfsborg were something like 9 or ten games into their season when we played them a couple of years ago and lets not even consider the embarrassment at the beginning of last season, Aberdeen and Motherwell.

Maribors 2 games might not sound a lot but I’d be prepared to bet it wouldn’t have been 3 – 0 last night if the game had taken place in a month, six weeks time. And there's no way Elfsborg would have beaten us 10 or so games into our season.

It’s a pretty basic thing but the SPL will NOT start the season earlier as the OF often go on lucrative tours at the time the league would be starting.

So the first part of my plan would be to disband the OF and bring the season forward at least 4 weeks.

:thumbsup:

There is a strange and devilish synchronicity between the era of free-market fundamentalism and the decline of Scottish football (incl the old ****) in general.
Abolish Capitalism and Globalisation.

[James70]

Call me whatever you want but I have not really enjoyed watching Hibs very much since the golden generation including Mowbray and Collins moved on. I have not renewed my season ticket this year and will be picking and choosing the games I go to.

There are still individual players in the squad that are talented and entertaining but as a team Hibs are just not producing on the park and I too am fed up seeing the same opposition twice a season or more at ER.

Even though our chances against Maribor will be extremely slim I have bought my ticket and hopefully will enjoy watching a good game against someone different win, lose or draw.

[JohnScott]

What a shower of bollocks! Your all whinging on about the state of Scottish fitba yet not one of you praised Motherwell. No fancy pre-season for them in Holland, instead they had trips to Brechin, Forfar and Ayr then right into the Europa Cup. And a manager described on these pages as a "coffin dodger", guiding them to a realistic crack at a play-off spot after their 1 all first leg draw.

As for this pish about lack of Government investment in grassroots football? Give it a rest. It's a professional game where players move between clubs for millions. So it follows the money should come from the game itself. Why shouldn't the likes of Hibs help finance Hutchie?

Every great sporting hero we've produced in whatever sport didn't have the money that's thrown about nowadays. Most of the kids now don't need football to occupy their time, they'd rather be doing other things. We always hear the moans about public parks being sold off but if we're all honest there's more chance of seeing young guys today shooting up or getting pissed rather than kicking a ball about. That's why the games suffering.

So well done Motherwell. Good luck in your return leg.

Oh and one more thing. The English media have a cheek debating the demise of the Scottish game given their showing at the World Cup.

[Pretty Boy]

How bad? Dead and buried. *****ed. In the gutter. We are a joke nation when it comes to football.

I could list all the ills here but what's the point? It'll never change because of the self-serving parasites who work at the game's upper echelons and the dominance of two football clubs who are an immovable barrier to any change in the Scottish game.

Better off buying a pay per view package and watching the EPL and other European leagues. Far better quality and costs you less per month than one Cat B at Easter Road. In the current times, a no brainer.

Yep, they'll call me a deserter and a crap supporter but hey, what's the point wasting your time, money, energy when the game has fallen into the abyss?

Sad and depressing. Hibs and football were once a big part of my life, going to the games with my mates and the banter. Now, I hardly feel anything. Have become apathetic, disillusioned and cynical. Sorry, just can't spend my energy when there's bigger things in life to worry about.

Scottish Football RIP.

:agree:

It might not be a popular point of view on here ut Scottissh footall is absolute garbage and quite frankly it's beyond a joke.

Celtic getting pumped by Braga, Hibs humped by Maribor, Rangers humiliated by Unirea, Hearts knocked out of Europe along with Aberdeen last year. These aren't small teams that constantly get blamed for ****ing our co efficient, these are supposed to be our games flagship clubs. The worst part is that none of these teams that are gubbing our teams are world beaters they are just able to do the basics right. Last night Hibs made 5 or 6 passes and then as soon as a bit pressure was put on the man in posession you just knew the next pass would be overhit or underhit, the intended target would miscontrol the ball and his 2nd touch would be a tackle or failing that the ball would just be passed straight to an opposing player.

The whole game is rotten to the core. It's easy to scapegoat the OF and they are part of the problem but our youth systems are terrible. Everyone gets excited when Scottish clubs youth teams(Hibs included) go abroad and win tournaments, thats all well and good but whilst we are winning tournaments because we can play a disciplined 4-4-2 with a couple of buig guys to bully the opposition, the Spanish and Italian clubs are teaching their players to express themselves, control the ball, pass the ball, recycle the ball and try new things. There is nothing like the same emphasis on winning at that level in some European countries. We have 11 and 12 year old boys playing on full size parks with a **** playing good football just get a big guy in there who can bully the other teams lads attitude.We have no under 21 or reserve league to nurture future talent and allow them to bridge the jump from youth to first team football.

No doubt people will point to talent like Darren Fletcher, Graham Dorrans, Steven Fletcher and a few others but these guys are the exception rather than the rule, the vast majority of our young players are jut not good enough and this gets shown in painful clarity at international level or against better quaity opposition. Only 3 clubs in our league own their own training facilities, another couple rent from universities, the rest still think in this day and age it's acceptable to train on pulic parks, and we have the cheek to wonder why our clubs can't compete in Europe.

Our game is a joke, time was we would have been glad to draw a Slovenian, Slovakian, Czech or some other Easter European team in a European game. Not now, now we should be terrified because these countries teach players how to pass and move, how to be technically decent, how to retain and use posession and how to do the basics right. This is something completely lacking in Scottish football and unfortunately the nonsense that passes as football in the SPL week in week out is set to continue for the forseeable future as there is nno desire to change it from the top down, including amongst far too many fans.

[sh00byd00]

here's a novel idea - our players aren't good enough? We're so used to watching mediocre football week in, week out that some of us actually think we're on par with some of the Eastern European leagues, when in actual fact we're not too far off the league of Ireland.

The only thing that stops the SPL becoming the Welsh league is the OF. Harsh but true.

It all stems from those ***** at the SFA and SPL. Funnily enough, for how **** our league is and how small our nation is, isn't it strange that the SFA still remain one of the richest associations in European Football?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Portugal Scotland
The night a team died
McCoist broke his leg did they not take 5 off us?
That was the alarm bell and they showed us the way to go focus on youth skill and bringing the youth teams through the ranks together

[TheEastTerrace]

:agree:

It might not be a popular point of view on here ut Scottissh footall is absolute garbage and quite frankly it's beyond a joke.

Celtic getting pumped by Braga, Hibs humped by Maribor, Rangers humiliated by Unirea, Hearts knocked out of Europe along with Aberdeen last year. These aren't small teams that constantly get blamed for ****ing our co efficient, these are supposed to be our games flagship clubs. The worst part is that none of these teams that are gubbing our teams are world beaters they are just able to do the basics right. Last night Hibs made 5 or 6 passes and then as soon as a bit pressure was put on the man in posession you just knew the next pass would be overhit or underhit, the intended target would miscontrol the ball and his 2nd touch would be a tackle or failing that the ball would just be passed straight to an opposing player.

The whole game is rotten to the core. It's easy to scapegoat the OF and they are part of the problem but our youth systems are terrible. Everyone gets excited when Scottish clubs youth teams(Hibs included) go abroad and win tournaments, thats all well and good but whilst we are winning tournaments because we can play a disciplined 4-4-2 with a couple of buig guys to bully the opposition, the Spanish and Italian clubs are teaching their players to express themselves, control the ball, pass the ball, recycle the ball and try new things. There is nothing like the same emphasis on winning at that level in some European countries. We have 11 and 12 year old boys playing on full size parks with a **** playing good football just get a big guy in there who can bully the other teams lads attitude.We have no under 21 or reserve league to nurture future talent and allow them to bridge the jump from youth to first team football.

No doubt people will point to talent like Darren Fletcher, Graham Dorrans, Steven Fletcher and a few others but these guys are the exception rather than the rule, the vast majority of our young players are jut not good enough and this gets shown in painful clarity at international level or against better quaity opposition. Only 3 clubs in our league own their own training facilities, another couple rent from universities, the rest still think in this day and age it's acceptable to train on pulic parks, and we have the cheek to wonder why our clubs can't compete in Europe.

Our game is a joke, time was we would have been glad to draw a Slovenian, Slovakian, Czech or some other Easter European team in a European game. Not now, now we should be terrified because these countries teach players how to pass and move, how to be technically decent, how to retain and use posession and how to do the basics right. This is something completely lacking in Scottish football and unfortunately the nonsense that passes as football in the SPL week in week out is set to continue for the forseeable future as there is nno desire to change it from the top down, including amongst far too many fans.

You said it all for me mate. Couldn't agree more.

The Cameron House debacle highlighted precisely why our national game is dead too. Overpaid, unprofessional drunks with an inflated opinion of their footballing abilities and who would rather go out on the razzle than knuckle down and meet the demands of being a modern footballer.

[TheEastTerrace]

Portugal Scotland
The night a team died
McCoist broke his leg did they not take 5 off us?
That was the alarm bell and they showed us the way to go focus on youth skill and bringing the youth teams through the ranks together

:agree:

Funnily enough, now that you mention that game, I vaguely remember someone saying something similar at the time, that Scotland were falling behind the pack and teams such as Portugal, Norway, etc were investing heavily in youth structures and development. Shame nobody at the SFA heeded the warning eh. Ach well, who cares when you're riding the gravy train.

[col02]

It is turning into a sick joke our clubs being in Europe as they get bombed out early and then we have an inquest into the state of Scottish football then come April/May everything is forgotten about as the race for the title, Euro places and the Scottish cup take precedence. The pundits on Radio Scotland are the worst as it is odds on they will talk about summer football and other radical ideas for Scottish football next week after Celtic and probably Hibs are knocked out at the first hurdle. The reality does not go away that we have to try something new as if playing decent teams in qualifying ties who are already up to speed with competitive matches more times than not our teams come off second best.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

What would it take for a revolution
Why are there no protests at park gardens
What would it take for them to notice
Would the ta ever contemplate a sustained boycott
And if so what would fill the void
It's just difficult to invisage a significant change from the status quo (with equally crap barnets)

[Viva_Palmeiras]

What would it take for a revolution
Why are there no protests at park gardens
What would it take for them to notice
Would the ta ever contemplate a sustained boycott
And if so what would fill the void
It's just difficult to invisage a significant change from the status quo (with equally crap barnets)

[thebakerboy]

One of the common factors in us not doing well (I’m not saying this is the bee all and end all by the way) is that Scots clubs are constantly pumped out by clubs from ‘lesser’ countries who start their leagues earlier – Maribor are 2 league games [and I think maybe a cup game] into their season. Elfsborg were something like 9 or ten games into their season when we played them a couple of years ago and lets not even consider the embarrassment at the beginning of last season, Aberdeen and Motherwell.

Maribors 2 games might not sound a lot but I’d be prepared to bet it wouldn’t have been 3 – 0 last night if the game had taken place in a month, six weeks time. And there's no way Elfsborg would have beaten us 10 or so games into our season.

It’s a pretty basic thing but the SPL will NOT start the season earlier as the OF often go on lucrative tours at the time the league would be starting.

So the first part of my plan would be to disband the OF and bring the season forward at least 4 weeks.

Sorry but if you look at things with a clear head one of the teams last night had players playing at the World Cup Finals , their national team was at the World Cup Finals and they have played in Europe (often the Champions League) regularily over the last 10 years and one of the teams hasnt done any of these so who is the lesser team. Maybe we in Scotland should look at our expectations. by the way I am a loyal Hibbie attending ER since the early 50's and as gutted by result as everyone else.:grr::grr::notworthy:

[Hibby Bairn]

Some of this is accurate but most of it is just p!sh.

Our best younger players (say up to about age 12) are consistently better than their european and indeed world counterparts in that they play football games and beat them. This has been the case for many years.

However between the age of 12 and first team professional we go backwards. Part of it will be to do with too much emphasis on winning at an early age (versus individual technique and skill) but a lot of it is to do with what we do from age 12 or 13 onwards. All of our kids suddenly start playing on full sized pitches and everything they have learnt playing 4's and 7's is lost on a pitch 100 yards long and 60 yards wide and with full size goals.

Full sized pitches with 11-a-side should be for aged 16 and above. Until then boys should continue playing 7-a-side on a slightly larger pitch size than at the younger ages.

IMO.

[PapillonVert]

Aw, come on, get real, our footballers are young guys and young guys go out and get totally legless all the time and that's natural so it is and it's unreal to expect them to be, eh, professional sportsmen and not get pie-eyed because they're young guys FFS and that's what young guys do!!!

All I can say to Scotland's footballers and would-be footballers is: please look at our most successful sportsmen of the moment, i.e. Andy Murray and Chris Hoy and ask yourself: what does that guy do that makes him successful? And also, what DOESN'T he do?

And then realise that that is what YOU have to do as well.

[Aldoo]

Aw, come on, get real, our footballers are young guys and young guys go out and get totally legless all the time and that's natural so it is and it's unreal to expect them to be, eh, professional sportsmen and not get pie-eyed because they're young guys FFS and that's what young guys do!!!

All I can say to Scotland's footballers and would-be footballers is: please look at our most successful sportsmen of the moment, i.e. Andy Murray and Chris Hoy and ask yourself: what does that guy do that makes him successful? And also, what DOESN'T he do?

And then realise that that is what YOU have to do as well.





Absolutely right but our footballers do not have to make the sacrifices these guys made in order to make a decent living. The rewards for mediocrity in football is unbelievable.There is no hunger to get to the top when you can live comfortably being average.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I can understand the folks posting on this thread who are talking about giving up going to Easter Road on a Saturday and, for instance, buying a SKY package instead, for sure you will see a better standard of football.

But then I suppose if for you football is an entertainment, just like the Cinema or the Theatre, then the natural reaction is to stop watching a poor product and either move on to something else or through the medium of televison watch the very best available from the comfort of your living room.

As a consumer that is exactly how you are supposed to react to a poor product. I sure as hell wouldnt go to the pictures 18 times in the space of 10 months to see the same crap film.

But if that is what football is to you then you have never really understood what supporting a football club is about.

I am a Hibs supporter, not just a Hibs customer. Who ever heard a commentator shout " and the Hibs customers are going wild at that refs decision".

I for one will stick with Hibs as a paying supporter. I am not sure if my continued support will help Hibs and Scottish football in general get any better.

There is no doubt that Scottish football has been at a very low ebb over the last few decades and there doesnt at the moment look like being a quick fix on the horizon.

But I sure as hell know that if I withdraw my support as a paying fan and give my money to SKY so that the EPL can continue to pay its players £100,000 per week Hibs and Scottish football will have no chance of getting better and in the long run will not survive.

I love Hibs and I love Scottish football and I for one will not stand by and watch either one of them die.

And if that leaves me open to a charge of being a sucker or over sentimental about the club and game I support, then I'm happy to say 'guilty as charged'

[Steve-O]

Sorry but if you look at things with a clear head one of the teams last night had players playing at the World Cup Finals , their national team was at the World Cup Finals and they have played in Europe (often the Champions League) regularily over the last 10 years and one of the teams hasnt done any of these so who is the lesser team. Maybe we in Scotland should look at our expectations. by the way I am a loyal Hibbie attending ER since the early 50's and as gutted by result as everyone else.:grr::grr::notworthy:

Sorry but you are talking about a country of 2 million people, that didn't even exist 20 years ago. If they can achieve all of the above, why on earth can't we?

[YetholmHibee]

Some of this is accurate but most of it is just p!sh.

Our best younger players (say up to about age 12) are consistently better than their european and indeed world counterparts in that they play football games and beat them. This has been the case for many years.

However between the age of 12 and first team professional we go backwards. Part of it will be to do with too much emphasis on winning at an early age (versus individual technique and skill) but a lot of it is to do with what we do from age 12 or 13 onwards. All of our kids suddenly start playing on full sized pitches and everything they have learnt playing 4's and 7's is lost on a pitch 100 yards long and 60 yards wide and with full size goals.

Full sized pitches with 11-a-side should be for aged 16 and above. Until then boys should continue playing 7-a-side on a slightly larger pitch size than at the younger ages.

IMO.

I agree with what you are saying - totally.

But rememebr, most (if not all) Boys change when they go to High School.

The peer pressure not to drink booze, smoke cigarettes, join a gang & have sex will come into it too.

Poor facilities, dog *****3, lack of fun will all be factors into chasing our youth players away.

Also remember, Professional clubs are hoping to get one player in the end, coming through the youth ranks each year - the rest are all shirt fillers!!

[Lucius Apuleius]

What is wrong with Scottish football?

Not enough Scotsmen.

[sh00byd00]

What is wrong with Scottish football?

Not enough Scotsmen.

Don't agree with that statement. There was a time when the OF rarely bought Scottish, and only ever played Scots because they had no choice but to meet the minimum home grown requirement in European competitions. Rangers for example have Scots from back to front nowadays and that just wasn't the case in the '80's. So if anything more clubs now field more home-grown players than they used to.

It's been spouted many times before, so it's nothing new, but the real problem is how we develop our players. Our coaches still use draconian methods, for example,a youngster's physical appearance dictates where the coach will play him regardless of whether it's playing to his real strengths or not. And that will be the position he will play in until the day he retires

There's not a hope in hell's chance had Cannavaro been Scottish he'd have been given a defensive role. He'd have been shoved up front due to his physical appearance. If a player is quick and nippy, oh... he must be a winger regardless of how good his actual crossing ability is. I could go on all day but i think you get the general jist.

add to that becasue UK players have this mentality drummed into them from an early age they moan when a manager has the audacity to move them into a position that may suit them better. You just need to look at Villa, Mueller etc to see those player can and will perform in different positions.



Our approach to youth football is our problem, not the lack of numbers available.

[Hibby Bairn]

I agree with what you are saying - totally.

But rememebr, most (if not all) Boys change when they go to High School.

The peer pressure not to drink booze, smoke cigarettes, join a gang & have sex will come into it too.

Poor facilities, dog *****3, lack of fun will all be factors into chasing our youth players away.

Also remember, Professional clubs are hoping to get one player in the end, coming through the youth ranks each year - the rest are all shirt fillers!!

By the age of 13 or so most of the so called better players with highest potential are "playing" and training with senior clubs. But they play 11-a-side as well as far as I know. Just in their own little universe of mediocrity.

The facilities and dog ***** etc. is then left to the masses, most of whom will probably never be footballers.

[aberhibsfc]

:agree:

It might not be a popular point of view on here ut Scottissh footall is absolute garbage and quite frankly it's beyond a joke.

Celtic getting pumped by Braga, Hibs humped by Maribor, Rangers humiliated by Unirea, Hearts knocked out of Europe along with Aberdeen last year. These aren't small teams that constantly get blamed for ****ing our co efficient, these are supposed to be our games flagship clubs. The worst part is that none of these teams that are gubbing our teams are world beaters they are just able to do the basics right. Last night Hibs made 5 or 6 passes and then as soon as a bit pressure was put on the man in posession you just knew the next pass would be overhit or underhit, the intended target would miscontrol the ball and his 2nd touch would be a tackle or failing that the ball would just be passed straight to an opposing player.

The whole game is rotten to the core. It's easy to scapegoat the OF and they are part of the problem but our youth systems are terrible. Everyone gets excited when Scottish clubs youth teams(Hibs included) go abroad and win tournaments, thats all well and good but whilst we are winning tournaments because we can play a disciplined 4-4-2 with a couple of buig guys to bully the opposition, the Spanish and Italian clubs are teaching their players to express themselves, control the ball, pass the ball, recycle the ball and try new things. There is nothing like the same emphasis on winning at that level in some European countries. We have 11 and 12 year old boys playing on full size parks with a **** playing good football just get a big guy in there who can bully the other teams lads attitude.We have no under 21 or reserve league to nurture future talent and allow them to bridge the jump from youth to first team football.

No doubt people will point to talent like Darren Fletcher, Graham Dorrans, Steven Fletcher and a few others but these guys are the exception rather than the rule, the vast majority of our young players are jut not good enough and this gets shown in painful clarity at international level or against better quaity opposition. Only 3 clubs in our league own their own training facilities, another couple rent from universities, the rest still think in this day and age it's acceptable to train on pulic parks, and we have the cheek to wonder why our clubs can't compete in Europe.

Our game is a joke, time was we would have been glad to draw a Slovenian, Slovakian, Czech or some other Easter European team in a European game. Not now, now we should be terrified because these countries teach players how to pass and move, how to be technically decent, how to retain and use posession and how to do the basics right. This is something completely lacking in Scottish football and unfortunately the nonsense that passes as football in the SPL week in week out is set to continue for the forseeable future as there is nno desire to change it from the top down, including amongst far too many fans.

True, true.

No Scottish clubs 1st competitive game of the season should be an important European tie.

Maribor may only be 3-4 games into their season, competitively around 6 weeks ahead of ourselves.

With our co-efficient we are going to keep coming into Europe at this stage of the season until our teams start to fight back on the co-efficient front.

The only way I can see Scottish teams achieving this would be for the SPL season to move forward 3-4 weeks.

Marbibor I'm sure will be a decent enough advisory, but would they really take the top SPL teams apart if we were a few games into our season. I don't think they would.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Don't agree with that statement. There was a time when the OF rarely bought Scottish, and only ever played Scots because they had no choice but to meet the minimum home grown requirement in European competitions. Rangers for example have Scots from back to front nowadays and that just wasn't the case in the '80's. So if anything more clubs now field more home-grown players than they used to.

It's been spouted many times before, so it's nothing new, but the real problem is how we develop our players. Our coaches still use draconian methods, for example,a youngster's physical appearance dictates where the coach will play him regardless of whether it's playing to his real strengths or not. And that will be the position he will play in until the day he retires

There's not a hope in hell's chance had Cannavaro been Scottish he'd have been given a defensive role. He'd have been shoved up front due to his physical appearance. If a player is quick and nippy, oh... he must be a winger regardless of how good his actual crossing ability is. I could go on all day but i think you get the general jist.

add to that becasue UK players have this mentality drummed into them from an early age they moan when a manager has the audacity to move them into a position that may suit them better. You just need to look at Villa, Mueller etc to see those player can and will perform in different positions.



Our approach to youth football is our problem, not the lack of numbers available.


Quite happy to disagree. We did a helluva lot better when we had no foreigners in the game at all.

[w.connectionfc]

The problem with scottish football in the jurassic managers and the people who run our country.
People are to ready to knock it but for me there are some good and quality players who unfortunately aren't getting coached right. It's time to change the whole structure of the game from grass roots. To many team from the age of 8 years old will play big physical bairns rather than the more sophisticated ones because it's all about winning for them.

[euro Hibby]

scottish football has been set up to ensure that both Rangers and Celtic share keep ahead at domestic level. Meantime, sponsorship and money have taken hold of the game and the old firm now struggle to compete with the English Championship teams for players
We have fallen behind the rest also because we have become lazy and money driven and some players probably don't care too much about getting better as they have enough money to see them through a lifetime.
Worse has been the administration and general running of the game ...in short we have gone backwards for years now and as pointed out by others we have no chance in Europe if our season starts late. What we lack in technical ability still can be made up with a bit of huff and puff but if we are only at 60 % in the tank forget it.
This apart, to become a top sportsman you need total dedication and then some luck ! I wonder how many of our guys remain dedicated. Just think to become a top class swimmer you need to be in the pool from aged 10 - 17 averaging 4-5 hours per day , up and down a swimming pool and the rewards a small in comparison to a footballers. If our guys are doing 2 - 3 hours per day its not enough .......
The playing fields are not equal but with a little bit of common sense we should be doing better as a nation. Thankfully, we have a well run club which has survived a very negative period and now is run like a business and makes money. Now for the hard part of making the team winners.

[cjward2]

I can understand the folks posting on this thread who are talking about giving up going to Easter Road on a Saturday and, for instance, buying a SKY package instead, for sure you will see a better standard of football.

But then I suppose if for you football is an entertainment, just like the Cinema or the Theatre, then the natural reaction is to stop watching a poor product and either move on to something else or through the medium of televison watch the very best available from the comfort of your living room.

As a consumer that is exactly how you are supposed to react to a poor product. I sure as hell wouldnt go to the pictures 18 times in the space of 10 months to see the same crap film.

But if that is what football is to you then you have never really understood what supporting a football club is about.

I am a Hibs supporter, not just a Hibs customer. Who ever heard a commentator shout " and the Hibs customers are going wild at that refs decision".

I for one will stick with Hibs as a paying supporter. I am not sure if my continued support will help Hibs and Scottish football in general get any better.

There is no doubt that Scottish football has been at a very low ebb over the last few decades and there doesnt at the moment look like being a quick fix on the horizon.

But I sure as hell know that if I withdraw my support as a paying fan and give my money to SKY so that the EPL can continue to pay its players £100,000 per week Hibs and Scottish football will have no chance of getting better and in the long run will not survive.

I love Hibs and I love Scottish football and I for one will not stand by and watch either one of them die.

And if that leaves me open to a charge of being a sucker or over sentimental about the club and game I support, then I'm happy to say 'guilty as charged'

:top marks
well spoken, we need more people like you who want change, but are still supporters.:agree:

[sh00byd00]

Quite happy to disagree. We did a helluva lot better when we had no foreigners in the game at all.

That's going back to the days when long ball football actually produced results. I don't think the actual quality has went down (we still have good players scattered around england), nor have the numbers nose dived, it's simply a case of our youth coaches applying the same methods as they did in the 70's and 80's when teaching the kids of today.

if the fault doesn't lie with the coaches, then i dunno where it lies as the only alternative is generations of Scottish kids have been born with 2 left feet.

[heretoday]

You've got to get kids enjoying the game and getting used to having the ball at their feet.

I'm fed up hearing fathers on the touchline screaming at their offspring to "get rid of it" and worse. That has ruined our game and just perpetuates the "lump it up the park" mentality.

Kids need to play on smaller pitches for longer to encourage a quick passing game and good ball control.

And we need to study how they do it abroad in the countries we used to beat but who now are ahead of us.

[TheEastTerrace]

I can understand the folks posting on this thread who are talking about giving up going to Easter Road on a Saturday and, for instance, buying a SKY package instead, for sure you will see a better standard of football.

But then I suppose if for you football is an entertainment, just like the Cinema or the Theatre, then the natural reaction is to stop watching a poor product and either move on to something else or through the medium of televison watch the very best available from the comfort of your living room.

As a consumer that is exactly how you are supposed to react to a poor product. I sure as hell wouldnt go to the pictures 18 times in the space of 10 months to see the same crap film.

But if that is what football is to you then you have never really understood what supporting a football club is about.

I am a Hibs supporter, not just a Hibs customer. Who ever heard a commentator shout " and the Hibs customers are going wild at that refs decision".

I for one will stick with Hibs as a paying supporter. I am not sure if my continued support will help Hibs and Scottish football in general get any better.

There is no doubt that Scottish football has been at a very low ebb over the last few decades and there doesnt at the moment look like being a quick fix on the horizon.

But I sure as hell know that if I withdraw my support as a paying fan and give my money to SKY so that the EPL can continue to pay its players £100,000 per week Hibs and Scottish football will have no chance of getting better and in the long run will not survive.

I love Hibs and I love Scottish football and I for one will not stand by and watch either one of them die.

And if that leaves me open to a charge of being a sucker or over sentimental about the club and game I support, then I'm happy to say 'guilty as charged'

There was once a time that I would have totally agreed with you. I saved up money from my paper round to go watch Alex Miller's teams throughout the 90s so I can relate with those sentiments. Hibs were a big part of my life for me and my mates.

However, times have changed since then and Scottish football clubs have crossed the line for what is charged for attending football in this country. Used to cost me £6 to get into Easter Road, albeit as a juvenile, circa mid 90s. Now, up to £25 (inc. BF) for a Cat B game and up to £30 (inc. BF) for a Cat A game. If I thought these players were worth that outlay every other week, I'd be there like a shot. But for the last few seasons, I've sat through so much mediocre pesh, where these so called players are picking up thousands a week, and thought 'sorry, can't do this anymore'. If that makes me a customer now, then so be it. But with this country about to go through the ringer, I have to be much more selective about how I spend my cash. Sign of the times.

So, yes I am customer now I guess, not so much a fan anymore. But Scottish football pushed me that way i.e. if the clubs want to charge that kind of money for football, then they have to be prepared to compete with other leisure alternatives or even the bare necessities of life. Where's the shame in admitting that? And at this stage in my life, £20 extra a month on sky sports, I'm afraid is a no brainer. Yes, it will probably feed the EPL machine, but I still want to watch football. I am a fan and lover of football, so if that is the only way I can watch it without breaking the bank, hey so be it.

I am sad and depressed about the way Scottish football has gone, but I have no faith whatsoever in the SFA, clubs, government, etc to do anything about it. Therefore, sad to say that I see no bright future for the game in this country as it stands.

[MacBean]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jimspence/2010/07/euro_results_underline_need_fo.html

Brought up by Spencey on the Beeb today.

I have to say there are some good suggestions on the board there. like a C(K)eltic league between N.Ireland, Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

I like that idea, would give an edge to the competition, new teams, new faces, new stadiums.

People will gripe saying travelling down the Wales or over to Ireland is too far for away fans. Is it baws! Newcastle took 4000 down to Plymouth on a WEDNESDAY night last season. If you want to see the game, you'll go.

[Keith_M]

I had a short spell helping out at Primary school level football. I realise that doesn't make me an expert but my observations on it would be that the 7 aside, half size pitches they employed were definitely the way to go. However, there was a distinct lack of assistance from any professional bodies. There was actually an SFA assigned coach but he was the coach for what, at the time, was the whole Central Region (Stirling, Clacks' & Falkirk), therefore he was spread very thinly. I, in fact, never got a chance to meet the guy the whole season I was there, despite making multiple requests.

Two other things I noticed were: The 'coaches' (usually poorly trained parents, like myself) normally picked the larger players over the technically gifted; Once the kids left Primary School, there was no outlet for those on the fringes, therefore most kids were lost to the game.

Kid football should not be about singling out the few kids at the top and rejecting everyone else, and definitely should not be about winning a cabinet full of trophies. It should be about giving every kid the opportunity to have training and to make continual improvement. Sadly, there just aren't enough trained/motivated people to provide that.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Scottish football is down the pan! Its only cos Scotland is a nation full of football fanatics that'll go along to watch any old crap that it has any sort of meaningful existence IMHO.

[Andy74]

I'm not sure the basis of this thread is even correct.

The other night we played Slovenia's most succesful team, who last year finished second in their league.

We are far from scotland's most succesful team and we finihed fourth.

We were not given any sort of masterclass, it wasn't really a 3-0 game and some individual mistakes cost us. we also chose to play without our top two goalscorers!

We also have a second leg coming up and we've yet to see how that will go. i'd bet we create more chances in our home game tham they did in theirs.

How would we have fared against the team that finished fourth in Slovenia? Probably better.

How would we have done having played some league games?

I'm not sure it's right to judge Scottish football on how out fourth and fifth teams do against teams that are inevitably well into their season and are generally placed above us in their own leagues.

I haven't checked but who did Slovenia have in ther group to qualify for the World Cup? Was it tougher than ours?

[heretoday]

There was once a time that I would have totally agreed with you. I saved up money from my paper round to go watch Alex Miller's teams throughout the 90s so I can relate with those sentiments. Hibs were a big part of my life for me and my mates.

However, times have changed since then and Scottish football clubs have crossed the line for what is charged for attending football in this country. Used to cost me £6 to get into Easter Road, albeit as a juvenile, circa mid 90s. Now, up to £25 (inc. BF) for a Cat B game and up to £30 (inc. BF) for a Cat A game. If I thought these players were worth that outlay every other week, I'd be there like a shot. But for the last few seasons, I've sat through so much mediocre pesh, where these so called players are picking up thousands a week, and thought 'sorry, can't do this anymore'. If that makes me a customer now, then so be it. But with this country about to go through the ringer, I have to be much more selective about how I spend my cash. Sign of the times.

So, yes I am customer now I guess, not so much a fan anymore. But Scottish football pushed me that way i.e. if the clubs want to charge that kind of money for football, then they have to be prepared to compete with other leisure alternatives or even the bare necessities of life. Where's the shame in admitting that? And at this stage in my life, £20 extra a month on sky sports, I'm afraid is a no brainer. Yes, it will probably feed the EPL machine, but I still want to watch football. I am a fan and lover of football, so if that is the only way I can watch it without breaking the bank, hey so be it.

I am sad and depressed about the way Scottish football has gone, but I have no faith whatsoever in the SFA, clubs, government, etc to do anything about it. Therefore, sad to say that I see no bright future for the game in this country as it stands.

Yup. That just about sums it up.

[mjhibby]

You only have to compare this hibs team with the team of sauzee and latapy and even hertz in comparison to 5 years ago to see how far and how quickly it has gone backwards.10 years ago celtic wouldnt be signing sunderland reserves and scunthorpes centre forward and rangers would not have lost six players and got none in.No club with the possible exception of the arabs is better than they were say 8 to 10 years ago and the likes of aberdeen are a shadow of their former selves.
Lets not kid ourselves on with the motherwell result as most people accept they got a favourable draw and took advantage of it.The point of not starting the season early enough is so obvious to all bar the spl that should we not address it for next season then scottish teams will spend years in the wilderness and god knows when will will be competetive again.If the rangers scores of last season(who the heck are unirea before they thumped them 4-1 at ibrox) and celtics humbling by braga and of course aberdeen record defeat surely shows just how bad we were.What has been noticable in all the reports of hibs preseason is how much sharper the opposition were yet we won 4-0 against two of the strongest 1st division sides.
That tells you that we are reasonable in a scottish sense but miles off the pace as regards europe.Yogi was unlucky to draw a team of maribors calibre and it will be interesting to see how far they get.we look to have set up preseason to be ready for the well game and hoped we could squeeze through in the europa league.Id be happy just to win on thursday but cant see us going though.Im not being pessimistic but realistic and what we will all wonder that had we started back a week or 10 days earlier could the result have been different.I for one certainly think so.Good luck to the lads on thursday and hopefully we get some momentum for the start of the season and either get bamba back in the team or sell him and get a canning type ch in.Rant well and truly over.