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Torto
30-07-2010, 10:05 AM
I didn’t want to start another sack the manager thread or have a go but wanted to point out a few of my thoughts and forgive me if this has been mentioned before but all we have heard from the gaffer whilst on the pre season tour is about the Dutch Philosophy of how to play the game. Now I am all for Hibs to play attractive football but there is one glaring omission in my eyes, there are players that Yogi picks week in week out that can’t even kick the ball right, never mind pass and move like the Dutch or Spanish for that matter.

So why play Nish upfront as a target man when you want to play football like the Dutch, why leave your two main goal scorers on the bench, I know he wanted to keep it tight over there but surely have a word with the two of them and tell them you need them to work really hard because lets be honest their work rate must be the only reason he never played them.

There are many players that don’t make the grade continually, Rankin runs about but never makes tackles or forward passes, McBride is the same he gets the ball from the centre half’s and gives it to the full backs, playing two of these lads together in the middle of the park only invites pressure onto your defence and lets be honest our defence last night was shocking, Murray had a poor game and Hogg shouldn’t play let alone be captain of the club. Last night was terrible and if it hadn’t been for some great saves from Stack then it may well have been more.

I know these players don’t mean to turn in poor performances but I thought we showed them far to much respect last night.

I’m also sick and tired about him going on about the other young lads to come in and do a Wotherspoon, Dee played well at the start of last season but from November onwards last season he was poor and needed taken out the team to have a rest and think about his game but the manager continually played him and again last night he never had a good game although he was in a different position than he’s been used to, if my memory serves me right he did play on the left sometimes for the U19’s but its hardly the same level, I’m sure Yogi would play him in goals just to give him a game. But with that said his man management skills leave a lot to be desired at times as a good manager probably would have given a rest and why when Galbraith scores the winner at Celtic he doesn’t get a sniff for 3 months. Could Galbraith not have played wide left from the start, he has good pace that would have been an outlet for us rather than turning inside all the time, two shots on target all night isn’t good enough. The fact of the matter is that the other young lads such as Currie and Welsh are there own players and from watching them last year they are better than the Thicot’s of this world so get them on the bench rather than these wasters who feel nothing for the club. The attitude of some players like Benji (I know he’s away now) refusing to train and play in reserve game last year only holds these young guys back, guys who want to play for the club. Look at the Germans in the world cup, they gave their young guys a chance and they took it so lets see if the other young boys can hack it.

When talking to other Hibs fans we all say that various players aren’t good enough to wear our coveted green and white jersey but are we expecting to much, I don’t think it’s a crime to expect the club to be the best it can be and its glaring that we need a few additions to the squad as it is thin on the ground but I do wonder with some of his comments that are in the press if he is the man for the job. He continually contradicts himself and makes a rod for his own back but saying one things and doing another, for example, Riordan is our secret weapon and can fire us to glory, well Yogi not from the bench he won’t that’s for sure.

Well I feel better getting that off my chest but we’ll still follow and support the team, you never know we might beat Maribor 4-0 ha

GGTTH

Expecting Rain
30-07-2010, 10:27 AM
Excellent initial post in my opinion, i would add that we have no leadership at the back and this was confirmed by a 6-6 draw with Motherwell and a heavy defeat at St Johnstone, i haven`t seen any signs that we`ve addressed that situation though i hope that Michael Hart with a few games under his belt proves a good aquisition, unfortunately with the imminent departure of Bamba we`ll be more vulnerable than we were last season.

Torto
30-07-2010, 10:37 AM
I agree, why can we not sign a big dirty commanding centre half, someone who can talk the younger players through the game. I think there is only one real talker in our team and that is Stack, when do you ever see Hoggy giving someone a tongue lashing. Once again Yogi has nailed his colours to the mast by keeping him as club captain

(((Fergus)))
30-07-2010, 12:15 PM
I know these players don’t mean to turn in poor performances but I thought we showed them far to much respect last night.

He continually contradicts himself and makes a rod for his own back but saying one things and doing another, for example, Riordan is our secret weapon and can fire us to glory, well Yogi not from the bench he won’t that’s for sure.

Yogi seems to have been running scared of this tie from the off, e.g., wasting a pre-season match so the Maribor scouts wouldn't see Hibs play, mixing up the names on the team sheet for that match, leaving out your two main threats that Maribor presumably will have based their game plan on (plan A, anyway) and finally setting up to defend for at least three quarters of the match.

All of this suggests a lack of confidence in his squad and himself which either the team already share or which they will pick up on - hence the mistakes. I don't remember Maribor being so nervous. If he really believed he had goals in his team, then why not exploit that resource? Because he a) doesn't really believe it (stats confirm he's right not to) and b) he thought he would get less of a gubbing with five in midfield. Yet the bravado and chat is all on the opposite tack: "Hibs win or a scoring draw". Funny how he's always talking about "heart on your sleeve", "canny kid a kidder", etc., etc...

Brooster
30-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Well said G. I cannot disagree with anything you have said and in particular I agree with the bit aboit giving Galbraith more games, if we can get the ball out wide then into the danger areas we have the players who can hit the onion bag. I'd love to hear Yogi's views on the points you have made.

allyhibee
30-07-2010, 01:31 PM
[FONT=Arial]There are many players that don’t make the grade continually, Rankin runs about but never makes tackles or forward passes, McBride is the same he gets the ball from the centre half’s and gives it to the full backs, playing two of these lads together in the middle of the park only invites pressure onto your defence and lets be honest our defence last night was shocking, Murray had a poor game and Hogg shouldn’t play let alone be captain of the club. Last night was terrible and if it hadn’t been for some great saves from Stack then it may well have been more.


Well surely by playing Rankin & McBride Yogi is applying exactly the same tactics as the Dutch applied at the World Cup though? Van Bommel and De Jong don't offer anything going forward either yet they both got a game. Perhaps Yogi thought having that industry in the middle of the park would add extra protection to the back four and allow the rest of the midfield to push on more. Of course it didn't work that well but you can see the idea. Personally I don't think a side like ours should be a accomodating two players of that style in the starting XI, if we are going down that route for games we are looking to be defensive in I would have preferred one player playing the McBride role & someone playing the role Mixu had Bamba playing a couple years ago(Ilicic scored his two goals from a deep position he shouldn't have had the space to exploit considering we had 5 in midfield, although once he got the space they were great finishes).

sambajustice
30-07-2010, 01:51 PM
The only Dutch philosophy Yogi will get the boys into is to smoke copious amounts of the hashesh!

The way the've played in 2010 it certainly looks like they've gone to pot!!!

Hibstrooper
30-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Van Bommel and De Jong don't offer anything going forward either yet they both got a game.

The difference with Van Bommel and De Jong though is that they are both big bad dirty B's who will get in the face of opponents and stop them from playing.

McBride, Miller and Rankin aren't defensive midfielders or your enforcer type player - Yogi tried to stop Maribor playing by overloading the centre of the park. Two good defensive players probably could have done as good a job as these three, leaving us an extra man to push forward.

allyhibee
30-07-2010, 02:14 PM
The difference with Van Bommel and De Jong though is that they are both big bad dirty B's who will get in the face of opponents and stop them from playing.

McBride, Miller and Rankin aren't defensive midfielders or your enforcer type player - Yogi tried to stop Maribor playing by overloading the centre of the park. Two good defensive players probably could have done as good a job as these three, leaving us an extra man to push forward.

Well I think McBride can sit in this role(if he isn't a defensive midfielder what is he?) but he needed an enforcer beside him last night to get in the opponents faces as you say. With Bamba seemingly out of the picture we don't have that many options open to us though to do that.

Sas_The_Hibby
30-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Where has Hughes' 'Dutch Philosophy' suddenly come from? It seems like an idea which has suddenly come to him out of nowhere, just because we played pre-season in the Netherlands.

If we'd had a pre-season tour in Liechtenstein, would we now be aiming to play the Liechtensteinian way?

I'm afraid too many of his comments now seem to be wishful thinking, along the lines of "the boys will give it all they've got", "we're going to play like the Dutch" and now "if we get an early goal on Thursday.....".

Unfortunately, just saying it doesn't make it happen, John.

Sergi12
30-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Well I think McBride can sit in this role(if he isn't a defensive midfielder what is he?) but he needed an enforcer beside him last night to get in the opponents faces as you say. With Bamba seemingly out of the picture we don't have that many options open to us though to do that.


The only place McBride should be sitting in is the stand cause he is ***** !

marinello59
30-07-2010, 04:14 PM
The only place McBride should be sitting in is the stand cause he is ***** !

Well you can't argue with well crafted responses like that. :bitchy:

Haymaker
30-07-2010, 04:15 PM
While the Dutch system is brilliant, players must have been brought up and developed using the dutch system or a variation of it. Unfortunatly Scottish and English developed players (which is most of our team) are developed differently and therefore the Dutch system cannot be employed properly. While I agree with the belief, like most coaches, that you should have a system in place and fit the players within it, the system should reflect the players ability to perform best.

James70
30-07-2010, 04:15 PM
The only difference between Yogi and Mixu I'm afraid to say is that Yogi can talk a good game and that's about it. He is too loyal to under performers but doesn't give fringe players a decent chance to get experience hence the reason our 1st team squad is so stretched.

He certainly does not appear to be any more tactically aware than our previous manager

By the way how can Deeks be a secret weapon when Yogi is spouting this to the press for all to read?

Excellent summing up by the OP by the way.

Sumner
30-07-2010, 05:11 PM
How the hell can you play "Dutch passing football"
when we have no one of that class - players who
can't pass p1ss after a night on the alcopops... :bitchy:

Earl of Currie
30-07-2010, 09:53 PM
I actually think that Yogi has the right idea , just the wrong execution.

As one of the earlier posts alluded to , playing the Dutch way takes years to get used to, hopefully the current youth set up are being taught the Dutch way so when they progress into the first team then it will be a seamless transition.

IN the long term ( and I mean 3-4 years onwards) if Hibs to were to continually play a continental style in the Scottish league , IMO they would rip every other team to shreds. If Hibs were to have 11 players who were comfortable on the ball and passing and moving comfortably they would be a class apart from the other teams in the league who continue to play the Scottish way. The evidence is in the results of Scottish teams against European sides over the last umpteen years.

The problem is what do Hibs do in the time between now and 3-4 years hence. I do not think that getting rid of yogi is the idea. His concept of Dutch football is exactly what is required and using Dutch clubs as models is exactly what Hibs need to do. The problem is in Yogi's execution. I would suggest that a Director of Football is brought in above Hughes to oversee the introduction of the 'Dutch' or some would even say 'Spanish' way of play into the club. An older head who could guide Yogi into the manager I feel can be. One possible idea is Bruce Rioch.

Another suggestion would be to have a head of youth development. Someone who buys into the same philosophy as Hughes and if Hibs are to keep producing top class players a position that is just as important as Head Coach ( it is the same as Dutch and Spanish clubs are run). One obvious example is John Collins , he may not have been successful elsewhere as a manager , but is an excellent example of a professional footballer and what a player can achieve through dedication & hard work.

Also , both Rioch and Collins have experience of playing/working at top European sides.

Sergi12
31-07-2010, 07:46 AM
Well you can't argue with well crafted responses like that. :bitchy:

There's more craft in my post than you get from McBride & Rankin every week yet they still get a game.

Hibby 2005
31-07-2010, 07:57 AM
In the long-term going Dutch is the right way with the RIGHT PLAYERS. If Yogi thinks he can achieve this when consistently picking players like Hogg, Rankin and Nish then he's never going to achieve his goal.

aberhibsfc
31-07-2010, 01:05 PM
I agree, why can we not sign a big dirty commanding centre half, someone who can talk the younger players through the game. I think there is only one real talker in our team and that is Stack, when do you ever see Hoggy giving someone a tongue lashing. Once again Yogi has nailed his colours to the mast by keeping him as club captain

Yogi, himself, was once this kind of player. So I'm sure he'd know one if he found him. We are not talking about a footballing defender which cost millions, we are talking about a beast. They don't tend to be too expensive.

Also defenders can play longer than other outfield players eg Sauzee, Weir Campbell etc. There might be someone out there who is not one for the future, just one for the time being that we could possibly entice.

Perhaps being too simplistic here, on paper it sounds alright, but it's the possibility of it happening in reality that counts.

Spike Mandela
31-07-2010, 01:15 PM
Hey we've got a new stand!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::rolleyes::bitchy:

Perspective
31-07-2010, 01:16 PM
IN the long term ( and I mean 3-4 years onwards) if Hibs to were to continually play a continental style in the Scottish league , IMO they would rip every other team to shreds. If Hibs were to have 11 players who were comfortable on the ball and passing and moving comfortably they would be a class apart from the other teams in the league who continue to play the Scottish way. The evidence is in the results of Scottish teams against European sides over the last umpteen years.

I thought we had the makings of a team like that when we won 1-0 at Ibrox under John Collins. Even though it was an under-strength team that was about the most tactically intelligent, disciplined and composed performance I've seen from a Hibs team.

I think Yogi has the right ideals but there are too many pointless passes in our own half. Wenger and the like talk about each pass ideally driving the team forward.

From where I'm sitting we need a leader at centre-back, an athletic left-back in the Uli Laursen/David Murphy mould, a naturally left-sided wide midfielder and a striker capable of playing with his back to goal and holding the ball up. Add those players and pace to the squad and I think we've got the rest of the components for a good team.

Phil D. Rolls
31-07-2010, 02:25 PM
I thought we had the makings of a team like that when we won 1-0 at Ibrox under John Collins. Even though it was an under-strength team that was about the most tactically intelligent, disciplined and composed performance I've seen from a Hibs team.

I think Yogi has the right ideals but there are too many pointless passes in our own half. Wenger and the like talk about each pass ideally driving the team forward.

From where I'm sitting we need a leader at centre-back, an athletic left-back in the Uli Laursen/David Murphy mould, a naturally left-sided wide midfielder and a striker capable of playing with his back to goal and holding the ball up. Add those players and pace to the squad and I think we've got the rest of the components for a good team.

I don't think the Dutch style involve every pass taking them literally forward. It's about opening up areas of the pitch to build attacks from - a sideways or backwards pass is perfectly acceptable if it is done for a good reason.

I honestly don't think Yogi really understands a lot of the proclamations he makes himself. They are just soundbites, and are made without any real thought. I just dont believe the man is a thinker.

Perspective
31-07-2010, 02:39 PM
I don't think the Dutch style involve every pass taking them literally forward. It's about opening up areas of the pitch to build attacks from - a sideways or backwards pass is perfectly acceptable if it is done for a good reason.

I honestly don't think Yogi really understands a lot of the proclamations he makes himself. They are just soundbites, and are made without any real thought. I just dont believe the man is a thinker.

I understand the Dutch concept. That's why I said 'pointless' passes. Not giving it to a team-mate just to be rid of the ball or pass for the sake of it.

Craig_in_Prague
31-07-2010, 02:59 PM
It's too much to ask of professoinal footballers, to just be able to make some passes, play with tempo, some purpose, a bit of fight and be organised.
It's just too much to ask isn't it.

I agree with Filled Rolls, Hughes seems to come up with soundbites and too be honest I am cringing now when I listen to him, he is not anywhere as smart as he thinks he is and he needs to stop spouting rubbish.

Hasn't signed the players we need and this season will see us get a fair few thumpings like last season.

IWasThere2016
31-07-2010, 03:28 PM
Good OP :agree:


I don't think the Dutch style involve every pass taking them literally forward. It's about opening up areas of the pitch to build attacks from - a sideways or backwards pass is perfectly acceptable if it is done for a good reason.

I honestly don't think Yogi really understands a lot of the proclamations he makes himself. They are just soundbites, and are made without any real thought. I just dont believe the man is a thinker.


It's too much to ask of professoinal footballers, to just be able to make some passes, play with tempo, some purpose, a bit of fight and be organised.
It's just too much to ask isn't it.

I agree with Filled Rolls, Hughes seems to come up with soundbites and too be honest I am cringing now when I listen to him, he is not anywhere as smart as he thinks he is and he needs to stop spouting rubbish.

Hasn't signed the players we need and this season will see us get a fair few thumpings like last season.

I do agree with the comments re Yogi's 'soundbites' - they are as bad as Mixu's tbh.

But to be fair, Yogi still has a month to make additional signings - that will mean some leave also (hopefully it will be the right ones and not the better ones)

steakbake
31-07-2010, 04:25 PM
I'm not at all convinced by Yogi. I'm not going to start calling for him to be sacked, because to be honest, that's not the way the club rolls. Paatelainen was already on borrowed time many months before he was eventually - finally - given the sack. I'll not waste my time getting upset about it this time because to be honest, I think even if Yogi does get the bullet, I have absolutely no faith that the powers that be will replace him with anyone any more capable.

Things were going tits up at Falkirk when Yogi came on board with us. There's no avoiding that. Half the fans wanted him sacked and the remainder were probably delighted that he left. They had a horrendous season, narrowly escaping relegation. Despite an extraordinary start to the new season last year, I definitely think the footballing phrase "you're only as good as your last game" is true and barring some friendlies, we're not doing well in competitive games.

The run-in towards the end of the season was an unmitigated disaster. I stopped going. Diehards will be spitting out their bovril at that, but I always think a fool and his money are easily parted. I was being conned every time I went.

I even stopped looking at the results, sticking to the holy ground board for my h/net fix because I knew that I wasn't going to go on tinternet or teletext and find out joy of joys that we'd played someone off the park with our flowing football and hammered them.

From my point of view, I don't think Hughes has the skill, guile or tactical footballing intelligence to turn things around. I don't think things will get better in a lasting or meaningful way. I'm not saying he'll lead us into losing every single game (though he might). We'll win some but I think the manner of our defeats and his ballooning in the press afterwards is what gets me the most. From what I've read now from all the things written since midweek, we left or main attacking players on the bench. What the fk for?? Its not like we're blessed with the defence you can rely on to pull out a clean sheet. The way Yogi has us playing means we will always need to score more than our opposition manage...

Maribor are not a good team. They're not even around average in Europe I'd say - if they come up against even remotely decent opposition in the next round, I'd say they'll be out. Put against a standard Belgian, average Dutch or even half-organised Scandinavian team (whose domestic football is far from good by the way), I think they'd struggle. If we had anything about us, we wouldn't have lost 3-0 to a team like them. I'd have settled for a draw and taken them back to our gaff. But this, I think, is the mark of where hibs are just now. Hughes will not get the "European legacy" he was bloating about, because he cannot deliver it simply because he is not capable of arranging it on the pitch.

Petrie and others have done a great job off the pitch in many ways but one area in which they have singularly failed is selecting the right man for the managerial job at various times of asking.

I thought we had it right with Collins but the problem there is that our footballing culture isn't capable of making the shift to a mentality which puts being an athlete first. Players in general don't seem interested in sacrificing their lifestyle for the sake of success in their professional lives. Collins came from that culture at Monaco, tried to replicate it at Hibs and it didn't take off. Why, is a matter for debate elsewhere - maybe he wasn't backed fully, maybe the players were just being dicks, I don't know. However, in the time he was with us, he delivered us silverware for the first time since 91. (I won't dignify including the 1999 title in that by the way).

Basically, I'm saying I'm underwhelmed by Hibs. I think in financial/practical matters its being relatively well run: thank god for that, given the shape of the muppets on the pink side of town. However, I have kind of lost the will to get excited about them because the reality is that we've not progressed any in all the time I've watched them. And yes, I was around for the blobby days.

We're a mediocre footballing team just now which is not fulfilling our potential. We've a fairly inept manager and a board who while they have certainly laid the foundations of financial security and great facilities, it seems they have done so at the expense of the bottom line of the club: being a hard-to-beat and consistent team on the park.

Here endeth the lesson.

vahibbie
31-07-2010, 07:28 PM
I don't think the Dutch style involve every pass taking them literally forward. It's about opening up areas of the pitch to build attacks from - a sideways or backwards pass is perfectly acceptable if it is done for a good reason.

I honestly don't think Yogi really understands a lot of the proclamations he makes himself. They are just soundbites, and are made without any real thought. I just dont believe the man is a thinker.

Mr Rolls, well said. !0 or 12 *****e passes in your own half while under no presure is not the Dutch way.