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Mon1875
29-07-2010, 10:15 AM
Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

UBIG holds an 81 percent stake in Heart of Midlothian.

In the document, UBIG did not give details as to the amount of the loan issued to the Scottish company, but said that the net value of the group's sports-related loans at the end of 2009 was 117.818 million litas and that the value of loans issued in Britain was 157.273 million litas.

The net value of all loans issued by UBIG as of late 2009 amounted to 264.193 million litas, up 19.7 percent compared with a year ago.

UBIG's shareholders at the end of 2009 included Vladimir Romanov with a 26.18 percent stake, Newfield Investors with 25 percent, Impexnet with 20.24 percent, Baltmet Holding with 13.97 percent, Kauno Tiekimas with 5.9 percent, and other shareholders with 8.71 percent.

(EUR 1 = LTL 3.45)

MyJo
29-07-2010, 10:19 AM
It sounds to me like Hearts no longer own Tynecastle and they have given it to Ubig to pay of some of thier debt.

Its started.....:woohoo:

Sergey
29-07-2010, 10:19 AM
In a nutshell, HoMFC Plc now don't have any assets other than the players. They've handed the deeds over to Lithuania.

givescotlandfreedom
29-07-2010, 10:20 AM
That doesn't look good for them!

soda70
29-07-2010, 10:21 AM
Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

UBIG holds an 81 percent stake in Heart of Midlothian.

In the document, UBIG did not give details as to the amount of the loan issued to the Scottish company, but said that the net value of the group's sports-related loans at the end of 2009 was 117.818 million litas and that the value of loans issued in Britain was 157.273 million litas.

The net value of all loans issued by UBIG as of late 2009 amounted to 264.193 million litas, up 19.7 percent compared with a year ago.

UBIG's shareholders at the end of 2009 included Vladimir Romanov with a 26.18 percent stake, Newfield Investors with 25 percent, Impexnet with 20.24 percent, Baltmet Holding with 13.97 percent, Kauno Tiekimas with 5.9 percent, and other shareholders with 8.71 percent.

(EUR 1 = LTL 3.45)

I have no idea, but it sounds bad......:agree:

Hey but nothing to see here... move on now.....:bye:

bighairyfaeleith
29-07-2010, 10:23 AM
Basically UBIG can now take the stadium as soon as hearts default on loan payments which they can't afford.

I love being a hibby:greengrin

Who are hearts playing tonight?

iwasthere1972
29-07-2010, 10:29 AM
I have no idea, but it sounds bad......:agree:

Hey but nothing to see here... move on now.....:bye:

I agree.

It's not all doom and gloom over at the pink palace as they have yet to bank the prize money for winning the Champions League last year?

James70
29-07-2010, 10:34 AM
But at the end of the day they still just owe the money to themselves so they have nothing really to worry about, do they?

cwilliamson85
29-07-2010, 10:36 AM
Basically Hearts are trying to refinance using the same people they are in debt to. So to get another loan to pay back the loan they already got they have to put collateral on the line to cover it as insurance.

Imagine you had a lot of debt and wanted to put it into one easy repayment you would have to put your house as collateral so the company would give you the cash.

MyJo
29-07-2010, 10:37 AM
They owe the money to themselves so there is no need to worry about it, Im sure that giving thier only asset to thier debtors is some form of tax saving scheme because the debt that they owe themselves doesn't really need to be paid off, does it??

PaulSmith
29-07-2010, 10:47 AM
Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

UBIG holds an 81 percent stake in Heart of Midlothian.

In the document, UBIG did not give details as to the amount of the loan issued to the Scottish company, but said that the net value of the group's sports-related loans at the end of 2009 was 117.818 million litas and that the value of loans issued in Britain was 157.273 million litas.

The net value of all loans issued by UBIG as of late 2009 amounted to 264.193 million litas, up 19.7 percent compared with a year ago.

UBIG's shareholders at the end of 2009 included Vladimir Romanov with a 26.18 percent stake, Newfield Investors with 25 percent, Impexnet with 20.24 percent, Baltmet Holding with 13.97 percent, Kauno Tiekimas with 5.9 percent, and other shareholders with 8.71 percent.

(EUR 1 = LTL 3.45)

Unless someone can tell me otherwise I'm not aware of any other UBIG sports related loans in the UK, therefore its fair to assume that Hearts owe UBIG £39m..which Tynecastle still doesn't cover.

lapsedhibee
29-07-2010, 10:50 AM
They owe the money to themselves so there is no need to worry about it, Im sure that giving thier only asset to thier debtors is some form of tax saving scheme because the debt that they owe themselves doesn't really need to be paid off, does it??

All successful companies give their assets away. :agree:

Hibs Giant
29-07-2010, 10:50 AM
It's intersting hearing Jambo say that "we owe the money to ourselves". They are then (when saying "ourselves") referring to UBIG rather than HoM.
You know that football is in a business age when fans consider themselves as being part of a banking group.

Sergey
29-07-2010, 10:51 AM
In another announcement today....UBIG sell off another sports complex as real estate for development.

Vilnius Land Sale (http://www.zebra.lt/lt/aktualijos/verslas/UBIG-planuoja-parduoti-Vilniaus-sporto-rumus-2010-07-28.html)

Dr Jimmy
29-07-2010, 10:53 AM
But at the end of the day they still just owe the money to themselves so they have nothing really to worry about, do they?

I love it when they spout that one.
Even if it was true they must be the only company that owes money to themselves yet charges a huge amount of interest for the loan they have given to themselves, thus increasing the debt they owe to themselves and therefore the interest payments they pay to themselves. Keep on believing fuds!

iwasthere1972
29-07-2010, 10:54 AM
All successful companies give their assets away. :agree:

I wouldn't call Tynecastle an asset. It's a bloody liability especially with all that asbestos and stands that are already fallen apart.

I like a good Derby but what the heck. Yams. :bye:

GloryGlory
29-07-2010, 11:01 AM
So if the PBS is now collateral for the money owed to UBIG, when (if) Hearts new stand gets built, what are they going to use for collateral to finance the building work? :devil: :wink:

CyberSauzee
29-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Basically Hearts are trying to refinance using the same people they are in debt to. So to get another loan to pay back the loan they already got they have to put collateral on the line to cover it as insurance.

Imagine you had a lot of debt and wanted to put it into one easy repayment you would have to put your house as collateral so the company would give you the cash.

that's how loan sharks work isn't it?



So if the PBS is now collateral for the money owed to UBIG, when (if) Hearts new stand gets built, what are they going to use for collateral to finance the building work? :devil: :wink:

http://www.oceanfinance.co.uk/

HFC 0-7
29-07-2010, 11:09 AM
Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

UBIG holds an 81 percent stake in Heart of Midlothian.

In the document, UBIG did not give details as to the amount of the loan issued to the Scottish company, but said that the net value of the group's sports-related loans at the end of 2009 was 117.818 million litas and that the value of loans issued in Britain was 157.273 million litas.

The net value of all loans issued by UBIG as of late 2009 amounted to 264.193 million litas, up 19.7 percent compared with a year ago.

UBIG's shareholders at the end of 2009 included Vladimir Romanov with a 26.18 percent stake, Newfield Investors with 25 percent, Impexnet with 20.24 percent, Baltmet Holding with 13.97 percent, Kauno Tiekimas with 5.9 percent, and other shareholders with 8.71 percent.

(EUR 1 = LTL 3.45)

The part I find intersting is that Vlad only owns 26.18% of UBIG. If the other shareholders dont like whats happening with UBIG lending to Hearts can they not just demand some proper repayment and stop lending to them?

So its not that they owe it to themselves they just owe to a company that Vlad has an interest in as well as several other companies and investors.

GloryGlory
29-07-2010, 11:18 AM
that's how loan sharks work isn't it?




http://www.oceanfinance.co.uk/

:thumbsup: Yeah, but'll be an awfy wee stand, 'cos Ocean don't do £51M loans to the one applicant!

CyberSauzee
29-07-2010, 11:18 AM
The part I find intersting is that Vlad only owns 26.18% of UBIG. If the other shareholders dont like whats happening with UBIG lending to Hearts can they not just demand some proper repayment and stop lending to them?

So its not that they owe it to themselves they just owe to a company that Vlad has an interest in as well as several other companies and investors.

Looks like Vlad and his cohorts have set up a few subsidiary companies. Baltmet Holding was set up only last December, and Kauno Tiekimas lists the following as its "commercial activities":


Commercial activities: conventional and bonded warehouses for rent, rooms for rent, loading - unloading services, wholesale trade.

Sounds like Vlad is going into the wholesale trade like Arfur Daley.

supershotmo
29-07-2010, 11:20 AM
In another announcement today....UBIG sell off another sports complex as real estate for development.

Vilnius Land Sale (http://www.zebra.lt/lt/aktualijos/verslas/UBIG-planuoja-parduoti-Vilniaus-sporto-rumus-2010-07-28.html)

Love the Mis Bikini article on the page :wink:

iwasthere1972
29-07-2010, 11:23 AM
:thumbsup: Yeah, but'll be an awfy wee stand, 'cos Ocean don't do £51M loans to the one applicant!

No idea what the maximum loan is or what their interest charges are but the Yams could do a lot worse than contact them.

http://i.acdn.us/image/A1527/152718/300_152718.gif

Must do better deals than Vlad and Co.

Woody1985
29-07-2010, 11:24 AM
The part I find intersting is that Vlad only owns 26.18% of UBIG. If the other shareholders dont like whats happening with UBIG lending to Hearts can they not just demand some proper repayment and stop lending to them?

So its not that they owe it to themselves they just owe to a company that Vlad has an interest in as well as several other companies and investors.

They could but I think they're using the 'throwing the good money after bad technique'.

You get people who invest in stocks and shares, say 1000 at £1 each (Hearts). The price drops to 50p and they've lost half their value. You get the optimists who think that it's a good idea to invest another £500 in the same shares and hope that it hits 75p so they can sell and get out even.

However, usually it ends up that there's only one way the share is going if it has such a steep drops. And that's down. They (Romanov / UBIG) could sell and cut their losses, which it doesn't look like they'll do. They're effectively 'stuck in' because they can't afford a huge loss on Hearts.

7Hero
29-07-2010, 11:25 AM
post some replies from keekback please guys

Toaods
29-07-2010, 11:28 AM
Attention all Yams - yer teas out..!!

Caversham Green
29-07-2010, 11:30 AM
I think this is probably related to them moving the loan out of Ukio Bankas the bank as opposed to UBIG the group. The bank will have held the security prior to the move, and now the group has taken it over.

The devil is in the detail though. Of the £17.6m moved, only £5m went to the group and the rest went to "a company related to UBIG". That phrase is important, because it means that the company is not part of the group - if it was the note would have said so. That means that there would seem to be another £12.6m loan due on top of the £39m that PaulSmith mentions. I can't see how they could have racked that much up in the last year, but that's how it appears - how is the £/Lita exchange rate?

I'm also intrigued by how low Vlad's shareholding is - I wonder if he owns/controls some of the other shareholders mentioned. I also wonder if the "company related to UBIG" is taking the interest in cash rather than rolling onto the debt.

Hal Jordan
29-07-2010, 11:37 AM
What about a Hearts village, whereby the stadium site is sold to a UBIG holding company and housing is built on the land with UBIG creaming the profits.

Say 300 units at average £150k = 45 million = debt paid and say 8 million in bank after fees etc

These profits could then be used to fund a high quality stadium venture in conjunction with the govt, sports scotland, the lottery etc etc build a landmark stadium for the benefit of HMFC and the whole of scotland, make it world class!

You have to marvel at their optimism/lunacy.

EskbankHibby
29-07-2010, 11:38 AM
It's the apathy of them that gets me.

Absolute proof that they no longer own the stadium, the very thing they hounded Robinson out for, and not a dissenting voice.

So used to taking the boaby from Romanov they would meekly accept anything, i genuinely think they would all work as labourers in the demolition of Tynecastle if "Mr" Romanov asked them and assured them it was a good idea.

Peevemor
29-07-2010, 11:39 AM
I reckon they're getting things sorted out for when HoMoFC finally goes down the tubes. Say the Revenue, for example, were about to wind them up, is it not the case that if the property has been signed over as security, then the tax man can't touch it?

This wouldn't be the case if the paperwork wasn't in place.

Big Frank
29-07-2010, 11:40 AM
Does this mean hertz have the money now to pay for this seasons strips:confused:

Or no' :confused:


:jamboak:

yam fuds:bye:

Woody1985
29-07-2010, 11:40 AM
I think this is probably related to them moving the loan out of Ukio Bankas the bank as opposed to UBIG the group. The bank will have held the security prior to the move, and now the group has taken it over.

The devil is in the detail though. Of the £17.6m moved, only £5m went to the group and the rest went to "a company related to UBIG". That phrase is important, because it means that the company is not part of the group - if it was the note would have said so. That means that there would seem to be another £12.6m loan due on top of the £39m that PaulSmith mentions. I can't see how they could have racked that much up in the last year, but that's how it appears - how is the £/Lita exchange rate?

I'm also intrigued by how low Vlad's shareholding is - I wonder if he owns/controls some of the other shareholders mentioned. I also wonder if the "company related to UBIG" is taking the interest in cash rather than rolling onto the debt.

On the thread over there it has a breakdown of the shareholders and it looks like he has fingers in all of them.

Someone needs to own up to being roussetsshorts. :faf:

I love the idea that you build 300 houses and sell at 150k each and make yourself 45 million. Yeah, because they'll build themselves for free!

--------
29-07-2010, 11:41 AM
In another announcement today....UBIG sell off another sports complex as real estate for development.

Vilnius Land Sale (http://www.zebra.lt/lt/aktualijos/verslas/UBIG-planuoja-parduoti-Vilniaus-sporto-rumus-2010-07-28.html)


I don't really understand the financial ramifications, Sergey, and the 'translation' my laptop's providing of the Lithuanian appears to be in pidgin English as spoken by a demented duck with Tourette's, but looking down the page to the other stories relating to UBIG, the Sports Palace, and VR, things really don't appear to be running all that smoothly in financial terms for the Mad Submariner these days....

Tynie pledged as collateral on the Hearts debt.

The small matter of 9 million litas 'disappeared' in a sports/entertainment palace project's budget? A project involving both VR and UBIG, as far as I can make out?

Some sort of 'invisible war' between UBIG and Kaunas Toon Cooncil over a basketball arena?

VR increasing his investment in a basketball centre (the same one?) by 5.2 million litas?

I assume that this is how REALLY BIG BUSINESS conducts itself in Lithuania?

Or are they all just right up Ordure Creek without a paddle?

Beefster
29-07-2010, 11:45 AM
post some replies from keekback please guys

"This changes nothing"

"We're only using the stadium as security on money we own ourselves"

"The Hobos will be creaming themselves"

"Does this mean that we now have the money to pay the staff and Umbro?"

"Maybe this is why Hartley didn't sign?"

"Isn't £15m a bit cheap for a stadium of Tynecastle's stature?"

"I agree"

"I've got cancer and will die in a week but would anyone like to be friends with my nephew?"

"Anyone got a TV they don't need?"

Gatecrasher
29-07-2010, 11:46 AM
despite it being funny with it being the yams n that, i think its a bit tragic that any football club/company can be treated like this when there are folks lively hoods at stake (i dont mean players management etc, i mean TO staff admin etc)

I think the SFA/SPL need to have strict rules on who can and cant own a football club. Also what can and cant be done to the club as well

i cant see many agreeing with this though

oregonhibby
29-07-2010, 11:49 AM
I recall that the land value was around £22m in a sale to a developer during the Murrayfield debacle, although today that is likely to be half that, at least. It looks like they have valued the asset as it exists today rather than selling it off to a developer, hence the higher value.

If it all goes belly up the Bank is likely only to recover the base land value for development purposes, it is therefore, best for the Bank to keep them going until the land value exceeds their valuation.

As long as the Bank/Romanov (sorry Mr Romanov) wants to keep them going there is no real problem. However, as soon as the exit signs start going on then it will be a big problem for them.

All of this is a sideshow really. We need to beat them at football, cos we have slaughtered them on the structure and finance front.

iwasthere1972
29-07-2010, 11:49 AM
despite it being funny with it being the yams n that, i think its a bit tragic that any football club/company can be treated like this when there are folks lively hoods at stake (i dont mean players management etc, i mean TO staff admin etc)

I think the SFA/SPL need to have strict rules on who can and cant own a football club. Also what can and cant be done to the club as well

i cant see many agreeing with this though

You're right. They've brought it on themselves.

:bye: Yams

Springbank
29-07-2010, 11:58 AM
I recall that the land value was around £22m in a sale to a developer during the Murrayfield debacle, although today that is likely to be half that, at least. It looks like they have valued the asset as it exists today rather than selling it off to a developer, hence the higher value.

If it all goes belly up the Bank is likely only to recover the base land value for development purposes, it is therefore, best for the Bank to keep them going until the land value exceeds their valuation.

As long as the Bank/Romanov (sorry Mr Romanov) wants to keep them going there is no real problem. However, as soon as the exit signs start going on then it will be a big problem for them.

All of this is a sideshow really. We need to beat them at football, cos we have slaughtered them on the structure and finance front.

Agreed - there is no way it is worth even £11m now.

All land in the city is worth 33% of the 2007 peak.

And in terms of selling it for flats, tell me, how is the nearby Fountainbridge development doing in terms of house/flat sales???

Answer - not very well. Only 1/4 sold (same with Quartermile)

those sites when compared to Tynecastle are 1) more central 2) more prime 3) more valuable and yet 4) still not selling

The land at Tynecastle is worth only what it will generate. No sales and an asbestos-filled demolition to take care of.

Hmm, I am sure developers are queueing up, saying "haud me back" haha

Bad times, for them...

Aldo
29-07-2010, 12:15 PM
TBH they can have it and mad VLAD to boot.

Heads in the sand and they think this guy is their saviour.

Makes our Rod look like a genuis and lets face I they are losing money every single day.
Paying guys 5 to 10 grand a week when they cannot afford to.
There will come a time when they will really implode and drop off into admisitration. Then Div 3 will beckon.

They are in deep Doo Doo and if the rg shock when the time comeseal fans cannot see this then they are in for a big shock when the rug gets pulled from under them.

HFC 0-7
29-07-2010, 12:36 PM
They could but I think they're using the 'throwing the good money after bad technique'.

You get people who invest in stocks and shares, say 1000 at £1 each (Hearts). The price drops to 50p and they've lost half their value. You get the optimists who think that it's a good idea to invest another £500 in the same shares and hope that it hits 75p so they can sell and get out even.

However, usually it ends up that there's only one way the share is going if it has such a steep drops. And that's down. They (Romanov / UBIG) could sell and cut their losses, which it doesn't look like they'll do. They're effectively 'stuck in' because they can't afford a huge loss on Hearts.

You could be correct but it strikes me that Vlad doesnt hold all the cards with this one and that there are other parties involved which could actually use Tynecastle to get their money back. At some point one of those shareholders must say enough is enough and they will want to get some of their money back. At the very least I would imagine they will want to stop the lending and extending loan deadlines etc and want to start getting paid. The way it is going now, it isnt even benefitting vlad having Hearts in so much debt. When they owe it to Ukio and the debt is at a certain level it benefits Ukio as they are getting interest and account servicing costs, but the loans are to UBIG and they are now at the point where they cant sell all the assets to get their money back.

This is what I dont get, at one point Vlad seemed very clever in getting hearts into a reasonable amount of debt as it was his back that was making money off the interest, but as soon as the debt passes the value os assets it seems like a lose lose situation.

Even the debt for equity option must be looking less desirable for the shareholders as they are never going to get anywhere near there money back for the shares. Hearts will continue to lose money with there wage structure, in fact for them to break even I think they need to sell a 5-6 million pound player per season.

Queue caversham to clear things up!

The Silver Fox
29-07-2010, 01:05 PM
About 4 years ago when Murrayfield was a serious contender as a permanent move Hearts were about £18m in debt. The value of the ground at that time for redevelopment was about £18m so according to my friend, who is a director of a large UK based company who valued the land, there was no panic over the debt.

Trouble is residential and commercial building has all but ceased since then and land values have plummeted.

The debt is now apparently £30m and the value ofthe ground is now considerably less as not only has the building stopped, there is also a real slow down in land aquisition. Land banks are investments but trouble is they are not good investments right now. It is any ones guess what Tynecastle is valued at right now but it will definitely be a lot less than £18m.

They are not in a good place at the moment, despite reassurances that they are debt to their own bank. My question is would you invest in a bank where the guy in charge picks a team from Edinburgh as his play thing and ends up wasting the best part of £30m and climbing. Vlad is stuck with his folly now, as a club they are unmarketable and the debt will continue to rise as there is no way of bringing in substantial sums to address the balance.

The end game is very scary for their fans as Vlad when he does go, and he will, is left with an option. Take a £30m plus £8-18m hit or sell the ground leaving them homeless. He will be the most generous man since Carnegie is if he does but my guess is he will be under severe pressure from the bank to recoup the loss.

Rangers position financially looks much more comfortable but at least they concede they are in the financial soup.

One question, do they rent the Riccarton training facility? As all organisations tighten their belts Heriot Watt will be no different and they are not the Hearts Benevolent Society.

Keith_M
29-07-2010, 02:14 PM
Love the Mis Bikini article on the page :wink:


Me anaw. I've just ordered one (The redhead) :greengrin

Billy Whizz
29-07-2010, 02:34 PM
One question, do they rent the Riccarton training facility? As all organisations tighten their belts Heriot Watt will be no different and they are not the Hearts Benevolent Society.
They rent Riccarton. I play there every week and they have just put a large price increase to us effective from August!

bighairyfaeleith
29-07-2010, 02:37 PM
Oh I just luv this wee felly on brokeback

missusm

Newbie

Posts:75
Joined:14-November 06
Posted Today, 11:59
anyone else think this isn't that big a deal?

So what if we sell the stadium? If we do so it will be on our terms.

For example, we could sell the stadium on the basis that we only need to rent it at 50% of the price and that all the staff that work there would be employees of UBIG and not HMFC. Or we could demand that any sale would require the demolition of the stadium but that 5% of any money made by the buyers on the land foeas straight into our account. 5% would be a fair amount for us to earn but not very much for the, to lose!
Alternatively, Murrayfield is still an option and I also think a merger with Livingston could be worthwhile, provided we stayed in Gorgie.

Disc O'Dave
29-07-2010, 02:39 PM
It's such a shame the thread title wasn't "Tynecastle as Collateral Damage....when the chemical factory next door blew up"

bighairyfaeleith
29-07-2010, 02:40 PM
And we have another oceanfinance dream client here

jammyjambo

Junior Member

Posts:656
Joined:08-February 06
Posted Today, 13:15
Its no different to you or I getting a loan. If it goes pear shaped the bank want something back to sell on. And lets face it we'd love to have it secured against David Obua but the reality is its the stadium. Nothing unusual here. Pretty standard loan and bank security procedure.

The good news. 63mill secured against 14mill stadium. They wont be in a hurray to say Deal!

PaulSmith
29-07-2010, 02:48 PM
Oh I just luv this wee felly on brokeback

missusm

anyone else think this isn't that big a deal?

So what if we sell the stadium? If we do so it will be on our terms.

For example, we could sell the stadium on the basis that we only need to rent it at 50% of the price and that all the staff that work there would be employees of UBIG and not HMFC. Or we could demand that any sale would require the demolition of the stadium but that 5% of any money made by the buyers on the land foeas straight into our account. 5% would be a fair amount for us to earn but not very much for the, to lose!
Alternatively, Murrayfield is still an option and I also think a merger with Livingston could be worthwhile, provided we stayed in Gorgie.

Absolutely priceless, who is this WE that the poster refers to? The fans that could only raise a couple of hundred grand to fend off Robinson... :greengrin :greengrin

Note to said Jambo: There is no 'We' if UBIG decide to sell Tynie for peanuts and leave Hearts high and dry there is NOTHING that you can do. Absolutely bugger all.

Sergey
29-07-2010, 02:58 PM
I don't really understand the financial ramifications, Sergey, and the 'translation' my laptop's providing of the Lithuanian appears to be in pidgin English as spoken by a demented duck with Tourette's, but looking down the page to the other stories relating to UBIG, the Sports Palace, and VR, things really don't appear to be running all that smoothly in financial terms for the Mad Submariner these days....

Tynie pledged as collateral on the Hearts debt.

The small matter of 9 million litas 'disappeared' in a sports/entertainment palace project's budget? A project involving both VR and UBIG, as far as I can make out?

Some sort of 'invisible war' between UBIG and Kaunas Toon Cooncil over a basketball arena?

VR increasing his investment in a basketball centre (the same one?) by 5.2 million litas?

I assume that this is how REALLY BIG BUSINESS conducts itself in Lithuania?

Or are they all just right up Ordure Creek without a paddle?

That page doesn't make for good reading for UBIG or Romanov.

It would seem that UBIG are prepared to take a big financial hit and want to offload for a paltry 12M Lith Litas (approx £4M). Shame, 'cause the plans looked impressive :agree:

Vilnius Baltic Centre (http://www.ubig.lt/index.php/projektai/real_estate/vilnius_baltic_centre/130)

Looks like the 1.5 billion LTL's (last sentence) might have been somewhat fanciful...like a few other 'planned projects' on their website.

cwilliamson85
29-07-2010, 03:00 PM
that's how loan sharks work isn't it?




http://www.oceanfinance.co.uk/

Most banks require collateral or another person with reasonable finances for insurance. Obviously Hearts don’t have any rich friends to cover there back so they had to put there home as insurance.

camhibby1
29-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Where's 'Fatty Foulkes' Jambos, when you need him. Pretty big explanation due - also Leslie Deans owes them an apology big time - he seems to be the only one of note who has made money out of this shock-horror story. Feel sorry for my good Jambo mates.

Kyle A
29-07-2010, 03:46 PM
Wait.....I dont get it, if you get 3 litas to the £........whats that in pegs?

Kyle A
29-07-2010, 04:12 PM
another case of yamathematics

posted by RoussetsShorts at brokeback...

"What about a Hearts village, whereby the stadium site is sold to a UBIG holding company and housing is built on the land with UBIG creaming the profits.

Say 300 units at average £150k = 45 million = debt paid and say 8 million in bank after fees etc

These profits could then be used to fund a high quality stadium venture in conjunction with the govt, sports scotland, the lottery etc etc build a landmark stadium for the benefit of HMFC and the whole of scotland, make it world class!"

The Godfather
29-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Where's 'Fatty Foulkes' Jambos, when you need him. Pretty big explanation due - also Leslie Deans owes them an apology big time - he seems to be the only one of note who has made money out of this shock-horror story. Feel sorry for my good Jambo mates.

I have another question as I understand it Hearts pay interest on the loan to UBIG that seems to be clear.

As they no longer own Tynecastle does this also mean they will have to pay RENT to UBIG as well as intrest on the debt?

Kaiser1962
29-07-2010, 04:20 PM
CG do you think it's significant that UBIG have not just taken ownership of PBS in return for some sort of debt benevolence deal? By leaving PBS still, on paper at least, in the ownership of HMFC means running and redevelopment(ha ha) costs remain the responsibility of HMFC and not UBIG. Also by taking ownership of PBS leave HMFC with no assets to call their own.

As an aside I believe STF did a similar thing with ER in that ownership of the stadium/land was transferred to another company (owned by Farmer) in order to protect the asset. As time went by I believe the assets were returned to the ownership of the football club, a bit at a time I recall, as its financial situation improved. Difference is there is not a cat's chance in hell of HMFC retaining ownership of PBS but, in practice at least, very little has changed, for the time being at least. I also think it looks like UBIG are trying hard to raise cash or collateral themselves.


I think this is probably related to them moving the loan out of Ukio Bankas the bank as opposed to UBIG the group. The bank will have held the security prior to the move, and now the group has taken it over.

The devil is in the detail though. Of the £17.6m moved, only £5m went to the group and the rest went to "a company related to UBIG". That phrase is important, because it means that the company is not part of the group - if it was the note would have said so. That means that there would seem to be another £12.6m loan due on top of the £39m that PaulSmith mentions. I can't see how they could have racked that much up in the last year, but that's how it appears - how is the £/Lita exchange rate?

I'm also intrigued by how low Vlad's shareholding is - I wonder if he owns/controls some of the other shareholders mentioned. I also wonder if the "company related to UBIG" is taking the interest in cash rather than rolling onto the debt.

Phil D. Rolls
29-07-2010, 05:04 PM
Tick

Hillsidehibby
29-07-2010, 05:07 PM
I will not comment on this issue until I hear what Gary MacKay has to say.

Phil D. Rolls
29-07-2010, 05:18 PM
I will not comment on this issue until I hear what Gary MacKay has to say.

:faf:

The EEN are dusting down a quote from the back of the drawer marked "Diary Stories" as we speak.


"Ah thought Mr Romanov was good for the club five years ago, and I think he is good for the club now. But he must start listening to the fans, as they are what is most important in all of this. He might have his financial problems, we've all been there - but it's no excuse to sell a famous old club like Hearts down the river, er...."

Sergey
29-07-2010, 05:32 PM
I have another question as I understand it Hearts pay interest on the loan to UBIG that seems to be clear.

As they no longer own Tynecastle does this also mean they will have to pay RENT to UBIG as well as intrest on the debt?

That is an extremely interesting point :top marks

Caversham Green
29-07-2010, 05:58 PM
CG do you think it's significant that UBIG have not just taken ownership of PBS in return for some sort of debt benevolence deal? By leaving PBS still, on paper at least, in the ownership of HMFC means running and redevelopment(ha ha) costs remain the responsibility of HMFC and not UBIG. Also by taking ownership of PBS leave HMFC with no assets to call their own.

As an aside I believe STF did a similar thing with ER in that ownership of the stadium/land was transferred to another company (owned by Farmer) in order to protect the asset. As time went by I believe the assets were returned to the ownership of the football club, a bit at a time I recall, as its financial situation improved. Difference is there is not a cat's chance in hell of HMFC retaining ownership of PBS but, in practice at least, very little has changed, for the time being at least. I also think it looks like UBIG are trying hard to raise cash or collateral themselves.

It seems to me that the report in the OP has arisen because of publication of UBIG's accounts for 2009 rather than a recent transfer of security. Ukio always held a security over PBS and that has just been transferred because their loan was paid off by UBIG/related company. So from that viewpoint nothing much has changed. I'm convinced there's some significance to the related company (who presumably don't have a security) but I wouldn't like to speculate on what that might be.

I'm not sure there's a lot to be gained by UBIG if they took ownership of the property now that the debt is so much higher than the value. There would be all the costs and complications of a sale, plus a potential CGT charge and they would just be swapping interest for rental income. Better to wait and see how property prices move over the next year or two. As things stand they can force the sale of the PBS whether or not they own it anyway. Plus, as you say, the costs of ownership and 'development' remain the Yams' problem. It also keeps the club as a complete unit if they can find a sucker who wants to buy it.

You're also right about the separation of ER from the club - Aberdeen and (I think) Falkirk currently have similar arrangements.

Bostonhibby
29-07-2010, 06:13 PM
If you set aside our understandable fascination with the bizarre indifference of the yams to what is actually happening here and look at it in a cold financial light I'd be concerned.

What has occurred here is the biggest, and definitely most tangible assett has been used to secure a loan / restructure a debt but that asset in itself is actually worth less than the debt. So that doesn't actually take care of that one liability. Unless the money is found to pay off the debt / buy it back the assett is unlikely to return to the football club as an entity.

This "loan" still leaves all the other future liabilities to be paid out of cash generated - possible if your outgoings don't exceed your incomings and you are not already saddled with a load of other prior debts (suppliers, other clubs HMRC) and also still having to make interest payments to your owner / parent company / holding company. :bye:

Woody1985
29-07-2010, 06:26 PM
I have another question as I understand it Hearts pay interest on the loan to UBIG that seems to be clear.

As they no longer own Tynecastle does this also mean they will have to pay RENT to UBIG as well as intrest on the debt?

I think that's unlikely. You secure your property against a loan, you don't then pay anything on top of your existing outgoings and the loan repayments.

I think they'd have to transfer full ownership of the stadium and reduce the debt by XX million for them to be able to start charging rent. That would be another nail in the coffin. It would probably end up as 'rent free' with interest on the rent amounts in the same way as their loans. They don't pay the interest just now, it just compounds on top of the amount. :faf:

IWasThere2016
29-07-2010, 09:43 PM
The beginning of the end ..

Jack
30-07-2010, 06:37 AM
Isn't it the case that as debts are moved around like this the interest rates are increased. Cant remember what the 'old' rate was but I was a bit surprised how high it was given it was all in house.
.
Also if, as it looks, this other company that has joined in the bleed the hearts fans dry scam is not part of the Vlad Empire then they might just want paid their interest instead of it being added to the loan amount.

Dashing Bob S
30-07-2010, 07:31 AM
Isn't it the case that as debts are moved around like this the interest rates are increased. Cant remember what the 'old' rate was but I was a bit surprised how high it was given it was all in house.
.
Also if, as it looks, this other company that has joined in the bleed the hearts fans dry scam is not part of the Vlad Empire then they might just want paid their interest instead of it being added to the loan amount.

Great to have a bit of good news that brightens up the dull malaise that hungs over the game in Scotland. So well done Hearts, for providing some much needed cheer.

So in conclusion, it seems as if HMFCs fate could now be being decided by Lituanian corporate forces other than Vlad?

One trusts that they will do the right thing.

SaulGoodman
30-07-2010, 07:33 AM
Hibs may have a tactical buffoon at the helm of their ship, but at least we're no the Yams :thumbsup:

Caversham Green
30-07-2010, 08:16 AM
Isn't it the case that as debts are moved around like this the interest rates are increased. Cant remember what the 'old' rate was but I was a bit surprised how high it was given it was all in house.
.
Also if, as it looks, this other company that has joined in the bleed the hearts fans dry scam is not part of the Vlad Empire then they might just want paid their interest instead of it being added to the loan amount.

The loan to the "related company" is unsecured - that immediately ratchets up the interest rate. And they will almost certainly want it paid in cash. To put it in perspective, at £12.6m that part of their debt is more than double the amount of Hibs entire gross debt - and the yams owe another £25m on top of that. Oh, and Hibs have just completed their stadium.

It looks to me like the "related company" is the start of someone trying to salvage something out of the wreckage.

IWasThere2016
30-07-2010, 08:19 AM
The loan to the "related company" is unsecured - that immediately ratchets up the interest rate. And they will almost certainly want it paid in cash. To put it in perspective, at £12.6m that part of their debt is more than double the amount of Hibs entire gross debt - and the yams owe another £25m on top of that. Oh, and Hibs have just completed their stadium.

It looks to me like the "related company" is the start of someone trying to salvage something out of the wreckage.

:agree: My take exactly.

MaroonPlatoon
30-07-2010, 10:49 AM
My only surprise is this hasnt happened already, its also no different to the situation we had when the deeds were used as collateral to secure the debt with the Bank of Scotland. Its been obvious that theres been money pouring out the back door for years since he took over but if you deal with the devil your fingers get burned eventually. The club are rooked and as he has 100% ownership theres zip that can be done about it.

Big Frank
30-07-2010, 10:56 AM
My only surprise is this hasnt happened already, its also no different to the situation we had when the deeds were used as collateral to secure the debt with the Bank of Scotland. Its been obvious that theres been money pouring out the back door for years since he took over but if you deal with the devil your fingers get burned eventually. The club are rooked and as he has 100% ownership theres zip that can be done about it.


Wow. Its very rare to see actual honesty from a hertz man. Well done to you.

There are things that can be done. Thats where you and your fellow supporters are failing. You may need to think outside the box a bit.

There are still a few of you that are what I call real hertz fans, not the crazy rabid ********s who seem to be the voice of your club, and its to these people I think is an absolute shame whats happened.

But he won you a Scottish cup, so all is well.

brog
30-07-2010, 12:09 PM
It's a House of Cards & it's only a question of when rather than if it collapses. It's funny but having lived away from Edinburgh for 30 years my main contact with the dark side of town is through this site ( links to Brokeback ) & the News on line. To all my many good Yam friends of a certain vintage who stood by us 20 years ago, good luck guys, you're going to need it but don't go quietly into that dark night, kick up s***!!
To the majority of the cretins who populate Brokeback & the columns of the News, GIRUY!!

greenginger
30-07-2010, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE=Mon1875;2527048]Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

Did the Hearts Auditors not state in the Club accounts that UBIG financial statements were not available and they were therefor unable to offer a view as to the club's status as a going concern. :confused:

jgl07
30-07-2010, 03:06 PM
[QUOTE=Mon1875;2527048]Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

Did the Hearts Auditors not state in the Club accounts that UBIG financial statements were not available and they were therefor unable to offer a view as to the club's status as a going concern. :confused:
It says to me that someone at UBIG is telling porkies.

Sunny1875
30-07-2010, 03:08 PM
On the thread over there it has a breakdown of the shareholders and it looks like he has fingers in all of them.

Someone needs to own up to being roussetsshorts. :faf:

I love the idea that you build 300 houses and sell at 150k each and make yourself 45 million. Yeah, because they'll build themselves for free!


Ah but your forgetting that the BeLIEvers will work as labourers for free if Vlad says so thus cutting costs .

CropleyWasGod
30-07-2010, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE=Mon1875;2527048]Someone just posted this over on Kickback. What does it mean?



VILNIUS, Jul 28, BNS - Heart of Midlothian, the owner of the Scottish football club Hearts, plans to pledge its Tynecastle Stadium in Edinburgh as collateral with its majority shareholder, Lithuanian-based Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (Ukio Bankas Investment Group, or UBIG).

Heart of Midlothian plans to use the stadium, which is valued at 57.794 million litas (EUR 16.75 mln), to additionally secure the repayment of a loan provided by UBIG, the group said in an explanatory note to its 2009 financial statements filed with the Lithuanian Center of Registers.

Did the Hearts Auditors not state in the Club accounts that UBIG financial statements were not available and they were therefor unable to offer a view as to the club's status as a going concern. :confused:

They wouldn't have been available at the time the auditors were forming an opinion. The UBIG accounts are for 2009 (what month? doesn't say), so they seem to be as slow at filing as Hearts.